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This is your go-to podcast for all things marketing, branding, and customer experience. We’re bringing you honest and fun conversations with bite-sized insights. Hosted by BrightSign’s CMO Brian Rowley and Head of Integrated Marketing Laura Smith, you’ll hear from industry pros, creatives, and innovators about what’s actually working in today’s evolving, digital-first world. No fluff — just real insights on how brands are connecting with audiences and driving growth. Tune in for fresh ideas, big thinking, and all the tips you need to take your marketing game to the next level.
Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:And I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And today we're actually going to talk a lot about what makes for strong B2B and B2C storytelling. Oftentimes marketers face the challenge of balancing distinctiveness with likability. And sometimes brands prioritize likability to keep sentiment high among a broad audience, but risk actually losing their edge to stand out. And then there's the other side of that, where you've got distinctive brands that actually cut through the noise and stay memorable through unique activations that don't necessarily attract unanimous appeal. And so I guess one of the questions that we'll dig into today is, is it actually possible to strike a balance between the two?
Brian Rowley:So we're gonna dive in. And I thought we could start with potentially Laura, some brands that are actually successful in achieving unique distinctive storytelling. And I can start with a couple that may stand out for me, or you could start whatever you want, but I thought that would be a good place for us to start.
Laura Smith:Yeah, I think that's good. You can start off.
Brian Rowley:So, I mean, couple, I think before maybe we do that though, what we probably should do is in the light of distinctiveness, like the difference between the two, how we would define them. And I think, you know, distinctiveness itself comes from sort of brands that actually have a clear point of view actually about the world, but it might not be necessarily just a clever ad. And I think likability can also be that, but it also invokes some type of an emotion, right? So it makes you feel a certain way after you see it. So I think those are two probably good clarifications.
Brian Rowley:I don't know if there's anything you want to add to either of those.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think when I was prepping for this, I would say that something that stood out to me that I was reading was that you can't be liked if you can't be recognized. So this distinctiveness is really just about, like, how do you who do you how are you representing the brand? And I think it's not just about, to your point, like, an ad. It could be the colors.
Laura Smith:It could be the logo. It could be the sonic. So I feel like there's a lot of ways to be distinctive, whereas, like, likability is really just everyone wants to be liked. But what does that mean? You know, are you funny?
Laura Smith:And that's that's why people like you. Do you stand for something the values of the organization? Are they are they notable? And that's why people like you. So I just think it's they're different.
Laura Smith:And I think what we talked about was you also can be both. But the distinctiveness to me is really where I remember something or somebody or some brand because of something. And that, like I said, that could be a range of different reasons, but the likability is might be, I just saw something funny that made me laugh, but I may never buy that brand.
Brian Rowley:Or remember it, to be honest. Right? Yep. That's one of the things.
Laura Smith:It's you watch the Super Bowl and people say, oh, I like that ad. And you say, well, what brand was it? And some a lot of people don't know because it wasn't it was just funny.
Brian Rowley:I think one of the other things that, you know, I was thinking about when this when we were we started to explore this topic was distinct ability or distinctiveness is also when you can actually stand alone without an actual logo and people know it. And so, I mean, there are some brands that do that really, really well with they're actually, a lot of them are older brands, but actually some are actually even newer brands like Liquid Death as an example, right? I mean, it's a pretty distinctive brand. And it literally, you know, is one that, you know, turning canned water, right? It's really kind of what it did into this sort of lifestyle type brand.
Brian Rowley:And it's new and it seems to work, right? And it's not just funny. I mean, there are some funny moments. It does have some likability obviously to it. But I mean, you definitely know who they are.
Laura Smith:Yeah. But that you know, what's so funny about them is they don't really do it any they don't spend a lot of money to advertise. So it's purely the can. They've done some like stunts and things, but it's that can that everyone recognizes though, and it stands out because it's it's different, it's unique, and it doesn't seem like it's water. Right?
Laura Smith:Right. I think, like, you also think about when we as we were talking about earlier, it doesn't mean it's like an ad. Right? It could be like Tiffany blue, like the color. Everyone knows you see that color blue, it's associated with Tiffany, and that's how they stand out.
Laura Smith:Right? I think it's also like the Cadbury purple. Right? Cadbury eggs, Cadbury, you know, all that, that's always the purple color. So I think, you know, I think it's it's also like, if you think about Coca Cola, the shape of their bottle is different.
Brian Rowley:Mhmm.
Laura Smith:So, like, that's where I think it's I don't think people think about it that way. Think people sometimes think like, oh, it's because there's some kind of TV commercial or ad, but really it's like inherently what is the brand made up of, whether that be like the values or the imagery or the colors or the sound. I think you were talking about, Brian, about the the Sonic.
Brian Rowley:Sonic. Yeah.
Laura Smith:Right. Intel. Intel. Yep. You know it.
Brian Rowley:Right? Like, I mean, no matter when you hear that, you know exactly who that is.
Laura Smith:Uh-huh. And the one thing too that we did talk about at the beginning, is that this topic was chosen by our LinkedIn followers. So this is clearly of interest, think, because I think it's it's not always talked about, because I think people don't think of it as like the spectrum and kind of the differences or the similarities between them. But I did want to note that, because we obviously want to hear what our listeners wanna talk about. So this is obviously a topic chosen for that reason.
Laura Smith:So that's all.
Brian Rowley:Well, good. Thank you for that insight. Joey, you can cut some of that. But I guess, alternatively, Laura, we've also seen brands that actually successfully play it safe and it's consistently likable content, right? That appeals to the masses.
Brian Rowley:So, you know, is one right or wrong? Is one better than the other? I mean, I think safe sometime gets a bad rap. But the reality of it is, and we've had this conversation before when people take that distinctive approach and try to make a name and it doesn't always to be controversial. So I think that's another thing.
Brian Rowley:I think the example that you gave of Tiffany's and just the blue is a perfect example of distinctiveness versus like the far end of that would be Nike that takes on very controversial elements to their brand, right? So it doesn't necessarily have to be controversial per se. But I think sometimes SAFE does get a bad rap because, you know, it just, it always seems to just land and, you know, you're not really trying to make a moment, right? You're just, you're, you're, you're, I'm sorry, you are trying to make a moment. You're not trying to like create something that's actually longer term.
Brian Rowley:So I don't know any any safe brands that you would say that are out there that you feel like exist? I think Amazon's a safe brand. They never really step out too far. Right? They're they're, you know, it's clear.
Brian Rowley:They don't try to offend anybody. They don't try to make a move on anything, but they are a brand that, you know, is kind of safe. It's just, I mean, they don't try to be funny. They don't try to like, they're just, they are who they are. Yeah.
Brian Rowley:I mean, that's safe.
Laura Smith:And I think that's they can be that way because either they're it's like they're likable because people want to shop there, and so it's part of, like, everyone's everyday life. So they don't need to do too much. You know, I guess distinctiveness, you'd probably say their like logo would be something that if, you know, Amazon wasn't and the word wasn't there and you saw their little design, you kinda know that. So I think that they're probably distinctive, but like, yeah. It's likable because I think of what they do and what they provide.
Laura Smith:Less so about your point, being funny or being I don't I don't even know what their values are, to be honest. I don't think they're really known for having strong values in any direction.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, you you used, you know, Coca Cola as a distinctive brand for a lot of different reasons, but I also think that's a very safe brand. Because when you look at that, I mean, they very much, you know, I mean, I'll very much date myself here, but like have a Coke and a smile. I mean, I remember that, but it's been a hundred plus years that Coca Cola has been around. Right.
Brian Rowley:I'm not a 100. Get that out before Right. You get it out But you know, like, I mean, things like, I mean, they're always, they do appear and try to appeal to like the masses. I mean, think of their holiday campaigns with the polar bears, Jeez, I can't even speak today. With the polar bears that are out there.
Brian Rowley:I know exactly. Not too much. But I mean, those are safe, right? There's not a whole lot that's there, but they've managed to make themselves distinctive in other ways.
Laura Smith:You know what's funny too, that I read was, is that differentiation is what the brand strategist wants, right? That's why when someone's trying to like strategize and working with creatives to kind of come up with a campaign, but distinctiveness is what the shopper's brain actually uses, which is interesting because right? Because if you Yeah. Think about that like, I'm thinking of a brand for a certain reason, whether that be their logo, whether that be their color, whether that be the sound. So it's not necessarily like, you wanna be you wanna be different, you wanna create a campaign that's different from your competition, but distinctiveness is what actually the person's using when they're making their purchasing decision, which is interesting.
Laura Smith:So again, I think sometimes ads are just funny and people love them. They talk about them again, know, Super Bowl Sunday is all people talk about those for a couple days. But do they really identify with the brand? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Because they will wanna be likable, and that's all they really care about.
Brian Rowley:Do you think distinctiveness or likability one is easier or harder to achieve? I mean, you've done this a lot longer on the agency side than I have, but I mean, through your career of pitching, I mean, did you try to go for the, oh, hey, they're gonna love it or did you get it with, oh, they're really gonna remember it? You know, like what what drove more influence?
Laura Smith:I feel like the like if you're being inside a creative agency, and we can't even ask Joey this question, but as a creative and all that, you always wanna win awards, and so that is likability. So I think that's where people would say, like, I want people to laugh at that. I want people to be shocked by that. I think the distinctiveness really has to come from the brand. I think it's hard to create that.
Laura Smith:It's like, it just it's the essence of the brand. So that almost has to be like inherent in the brand, and then creatively, you can make likable ads. Joey, do have a perspective on that? I
Producer Joey:just know when we would when we pitch, there's always, like, the the argument or the the discussion around, do we go safe with what they would do, but they just don't know they would do it? Do is that the path we go, or do we go somewhere completely different to kind of shake things up and to kind of get them to view the space differently or just to kind of see, you know, the agency's thinking? So
Laura Smith:That's like that that's more like the likability piece though. Right? Like, you would you would yeah. I I think that's that's what happens because I think I don't know if you can create I mean, obviously, you can create distinctiveness. Mean, someone's creating somebody created the Tiffany color and and said that's the color and that's gonna be on everything that
Brian Rowley:Somebody created the BrightSign color. I mean Right. The brand is known for the purple. Purple.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I guess we're Right. That's a good point. Like, are distinctive. I think when it comes down to a likable brand, like what we talked about, like, think about the brands.
Laura Smith:I think it's REI who doesn't open on Black Friday. Is that right? So like, they're one because people like, they're all about like giving their people like, they're go outside. You know, I think that's what the campaign might have been like outside or outdoors or whatever. But also like Patagonia, because they have like really the environment.
Laura Smith:Mhmm. Right? So like, because it there's a shared interest, and I think that they're probably distinctive to Patagonia, but and REI. But I think from the you know, you have to figure out like, who are you trying to convince to buy your products, and what do those people maybe what matters to them? Because then you're trying to get to that, like, shared interest, I feel like, with likability.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I agree. But let let me ask this though, because if we if we step back for a second, there's the creative element to it. But then there's always the question, right? You're spending a considerable amount of money on these campaigns and these decisions to build and develop brands and campaigns.
Brian Rowley:What actually drives more growth? Distinctiveness or likability?
Laura Smith:Well, I think based on what I said earlier, it's the distinctiveness.
Brian Rowley:Well, I don't know.
Laura Smith:It's what the shopper's brain actually uses. That's what I said earlier.
Brian Rowley:Right. But short term, the pieces that make you laugh and are funny and all of that, like, don't those also I have an element of short
Laura Smith:also read that likability is what makes someone choose you when they're already considering you. So like, I'm already thinking about you, and then you made me laugh, and you did whatever, so I'm gonna I'm gonna buy that. Whereas distinctiveness is what gets you considered in the first place. So it actually opens people's eyes to potentially something new. Yep.
Laura Smith:Which is interesting.
Brian Rowley:It is.
Laura Smith:So I think distinctiveness feels like that's more long term.
Brian Rowley:So so Laura, there are also campaigns that are out there that are actually most memorable because they've also alienated certain audiences. So as we talk through some of that, how should marketers assess that risk before making a decision? And I mean, there's plenty. I mean, we all can think of a million different campaigns that have been out there that have been memorable, but have alienated. So Yeah.
Brian Rowley:What what guidance do we give? Because because you don't know.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think one is just very timely and very local to Boston here, which was the Nike ad. We were talking about this with Joey earlier. And they I forget exactly what it said, but it was like for runners only. And so like, it basically alienated people who don't run and walk, and many people who walk wear Nike sneakers or Nike clothes.
Laura Smith:So you've just ticked off a bunch of people who feel like you're just only prioritizing the runners because it's like the Boston Marathon. So that was like and Nike's had other situations too.
Brian Rowley:They
Producer Joey:actually removed the ad. It looks like they took it down. I'm I'm researching it right now. Yeah.
Laura Smith:I'm not surprised, but it was out there
Brian Rowley:for The
Producer Joey:backlash was pretty strong. It said runners welcome, walkers tolerated.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. Like yeah. That seems pretty aggressive though, because if you think about it from their brand perspective, they represent both of those categories. Totally. So why would you
Laura Smith:The be marathon is for runners. Mean, I there are people that walk some of it, whatever, but it's obviously a running moment. And so they're trying to capitalize on that thinking, oh, look at all these people we can, you know, connect with because all these runners, top of mind, everyone's in Boston,
Brian Rowley:all the
Producer Joey:people all world. Didn't think through it. They really didn't. I don't because the Boston Marathon, the bombing, I mean, you have folks that were injured in that and they might be there
Laura Smith:And not be able to run.
Producer Joey:Right. Yeah. Or worse than that, you know? So I just I I It's hard for me to believe that they're that evil that they would still do that without even realizing it. So I just it feels like they rushed into it and really didn't consider how it could come across to some people.
Brian Rowley:Well, but I guess the other side to that though, is we all make decisions. And I mean, it's impossible to be able to think through every outcome. And I mean, obviously that is our goal, right? I don't think any brand is out there intentionally trying to alienate any individual or group of people. But the reality of it is, I mean, choice of a word could be, and let's be honest, we're a very sensitive society right now.
Brian Rowley:And I think that has changed over time as well, whether right or wrong, it is a reality of the times that we're living in. So I do think you have to try to think through all of those moments, but I think it's impossible to be able to. And I think that's where the risks come in. That's why people do play it safe.
Laura Smith:I was gonna say that's why people, I think that's why you just seem more safe. And the ones that are doing something maybe a little bit more memorable or notable are, they're like, they're okay taking the risk.
Brian Rowley:They're okay.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Because they want to want to stand out, and they don't you know, they know you're not gonna please everybody. You're never gonna do that, but once it becomes something so controversial where like, to that point now, Joey, now they have to pull it down, and they can't stand behind that anymore, and it had a it had a like a, what do you call it, a flash in a pan, whatever, whatever. It's like a moment in time that that got attention, and then it got talked about. And so, but look at us, we're talking about Nike right now.
Laura Smith:I don't know if I'm never not gonna buy a Nike again, you know, that's not what I'm saying. So it's like, you had a moment and that'll fade, you know? But I think I think a lot of a lot of brands feel safer being safe. And so there's too much in this world right now, I think going on that it might be scary to reach out of that.
Brian Rowley:But I also think you have to know your audience. And I think, you know, if we go just a couple years ago, Bud Light had done a piece on Dylan Mulvaney, which was a transgender influencer and sort of celebrated, I think it was her three sixty five days of girlhood or something along those lines. But their audience is conservative, working class, right? Beer drinkers. So I do think you have to understand your audience because I think there are audiences, whether people agree with this or disagree, that are gonna be more tolerant of certain conversations than other.
Brian Rowley:And again, you're gonna offend some, you're not gonna offend others, but you really do have to understand like Bud Light is pretty, their audience is pretty widespread and clear. I would say Nike's audience covers a bigger geography of people, right? I think it's a little bit different, but I think understanding who your audience is really important.
Laura Smith:Yeah, I would agree.
Brian Rowley:So the last one I have is AI generated content. And, you know, one of the things that we see is it floods every channel. And when brands start looking, sounding, and feeling the same, does actually distinctiveness become more valuable or does it just get harder to achieve? And we have talked a little bit about this, Laura, when we talk about AI and some of the models like everybody, you know, is putting in the same thing and AI is searching the same, you know, resources. Are we all going get the same things?
Brian Rowley:But, you know, we've also said that prompting is a big piece to that. But how do you think that fits in here with being distinctive?
Laura Smith:It depends how it's being used. I mean, again, I go back to like distinctiveness. It's not a campaign. It's truly who the what the brand represents and how it shows up, but it's not like it's, you know, you don't create you create distinctiveness, I guess. I mean, you do and this you have to build that brand out and what it stands for, but I feel like so I feel like it depends how it's being used.
Laura Smith:Mean, AI is gonna be in everywhere. So I guess if a brand were create tomorrow, and AI was part of that. Like, are you saying in the creative part of it? Or is it like just in the logo? I mean, I think it depends.
Laura Smith:It depends.
Brian Rowley:I think it's in the interesting part to this is many of the brands that we talked about, are ready today actually are using AI, and they are still some of the distinctive brands. Apple, Nike, Liquid Death.
Laura Smith:So what are they using it as? How are they using it though?
Brian Rowley:So, well, I mean, they're still leaning in like Apple as an example. Right? They're using AI, but they're also still leaning hard on like real cinematography and real directors and different things like that. And Nike is doing it with, they're using AI in order to create concepts, but still using like real storytelling about real athletes, right? In the moment to be able to achieve it.
Brian Rowley:So I do think that it can be used and I think it can be infused, but I think, again, it kind of goes back to the same thing we've talked about many times and you still have to have that humanistic side in order to be able to pull it off. I don't think you can a 100% rely on it. I think you have to continue to interweave that humanistic approach to it.
Laura Smith:Yeah. And I think, you know, if Apple's using it for some other you know, is there for efficiency or executions, whatever, but it's not I mean, Apple's distinctive and likable, but, you know, for other reasons. Right? They're distinctive because of their, like, simplicity, their packaging. They're like, you know, it's it's we all know.
Laura Smith:But, you know, are they using AI in some of their work? Probably. But that doesn't change how I think of them. You know, I think that I think it was a was it J. Crew?
Laura Smith:I think they And it's again, was it an ad execution, where they got called out for using AI. There was people like on a boat, like, you know, in their outfits, and people just figured out, I don't know if there were like fingers missing in people's hands, what the heck was done, but you know, they got called out for that because that was it felt very unlike them. But again, I don't think it's like, it's in some kind of execution that they're creating. I don't it didn't feel like it was changing the essence of the brand, and what they stand for, or what they've been known for, you know? So I think we're start to see that.
Laura Smith:That's what's gonna be happening, is people I just don't know why, I mean, is a whole other conversation, but I don't know why people care if you're using AI or not.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I I think it's a it's a it's a non issue to be honest.
Laura Smith:It's like an efficiency play probably, you know, and all that. And, you know, so maybe people like are so used to them using real people and this wasn't real people, but it's also yeah. It's almost if a brand isn't using AI in some form or fashion, then they're they're not relevant.
Brian Rowley:Well, but I think it's important to take the moment to understand, again, the audience. If the audience feels that your use of AI is laziness and the lack of commitment to understanding them and being able to solve something for them, then I think that's an interpretation of why AI gets the rap that it gets. Whereas if you go back and look at it to what we had said, sure, there's ways to use AI, but then keeping that brand humanistic element still a part of it because you do understand your audience. I don't think anybody's really gonna have a problem with that. Nobody wants to be treated like they, you know, like, oh, they'll never know.
Brian Rowley:So I can just, you know, run this past there and I'll take a lazy approach to this and give it half of the time that it's worth because think people take offense to that. And I don't blame you. As a consumer, I would too.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's how it's used. Yeah. Right.
Brian Rowley:I would agree. Well, this is an interesting conversation and I think it's one that goes in both directions where I think, you know, you have the ability to be distinctive. You have the there's different moments in time, like ability can be important. You establish yourself with distinctiveness. They can operate in the same world for sure.
Brian Rowley:And we've given some examples of how that happens.
Laura Smith:Right. And it and it's just good to kind of, you know, gut check. As marketers, we have to think about this. Right? If if whether it's working on a new brand or whether it's defining a brand or thinking about just, you know, rolling out campaigns that fall under a brand umbrella.
Laura Smith:Like, you know, you have to think about this. And I think, you know, we have to make those decisions about to the point, like, you know, BrightSign, we this you know, our color is very distinctive, Likable, like, you know, we're working on a campaign now that we think that will be very likable when we when we roll it out. So I think, you know, we're thinking about those things. Right? And we're thinking about how to not play it safe as well sometimes.
Laura Smith:Not to be offensive, but also not to be so comfortable in our own brand skin.
Brian Rowley:Yeah.
Laura Smith:And obviously, our our listeners were interested in this topic. So there you go.
Brian Rowley:Well, I think if there's other topics that our listeners are interested in, please be sure to let us know. But if you liked what you heard today, be sure and follow us. And thanks for listening.