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"Winning in Ministry" is a podcast dedicated to empowering church leaders and ministry professionals with the tools and insights needed to thrive in their spiritual and organizational roles. Each episode features engaging discussions with experienced pastors, ministry experts, and thought leaders who share their wisdom on effective leadership, congregational growth, and navigating the challenges of modern ministry. Whether you're looking for inspiration, practical advice, or strategies to enhance your ministry's impact, "Winning in Ministry" offers valuable content to help you lead with confidence and purpose. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster a vibrant church community, and achieve success in your ministry journey.
Why does it feel like so many ministers are living a double life, a secret life? What kind of environment produces secret habits? What can you do if you're living a double life? Join us as we unpack this important topic, how hidden habits can hinder on this episode of the Winning in Ministry podcast.
Tom:You're listening to the Winning in ministry podcast where members of the edify leaders ministry coaching team share insights and inspiration they have gained as they seek to strengthen ministers for exponential impact in life and ministry. Ministry. And now here are your hosts, Ray Sanders and Tom Matthew.
Ray:Welcome to this edition of the Winning in Ministry podcast. I'm your host, Ray Sanders, and I'm joined by my cohost, mister Tom Matthews.
Tom:Well, thank you, Ray. So glad to be here. So glad to be doing this and having this podcast where we can have this kind of opportunity to be able to share and talk about how ministers can win.
Ray:That's what we're about. Exactly. Winning in ministry, Tom. That's what it's that's what it's all about.
Wendall:No l's.
Tom:No l's. W's. That's right. Well, let me ask you today. Are you tired of seeing pastors in the headlines for all the wrong reasons?
Tom:Another scandal, another fall from grace, another community hurting and reeling because of what happened with their pastor. Why does it keep happening? What's going on behind closed doors that no one sees until it's too late? Well, today's episode tackles a hard but necessary conversation, the secret lives of pastors and ministers, and how hidden habits can lead to public destruction. We're joined by a few friends who are pastors and coaches with Edify leaders who are gonna offer real insight into this issue, real practical ways to kinda help pastors and ministers to be able to overcome this.
Tom:Together, we'll explore how to recognize the warning signs, confront what's hidden, and build a life of integrity from the inside out. If you're in ministry or you love someone who is, this one matters, so be sure and share it
Ray:with them. You know, Tom, this is really a topic that's hard to unpack, but we definitely know that pastors that are out there, ministers that are out there, it's a struggle. And it's not just ministers. It's everyone. There's those stronghold, those hidden sins that we all struggle with, and we're just gonna get real.
Ray:Yeah. We're gonna get real. We have a couple of guys on the program today. Guys, I love some of you, know these guys. Some of you are gonna learn about them today.
Ray:We have in studio with us today pastor Wendell Lang and pastor Randy Davis. Hey, guys. Thanks for joining the Winning in Ministry podcast.
Wendall:Glad to be to be here.
Ray:Will you guys kind of, unpack and tell us a little bit about, your your background, why you do what you do, and, just kinda introduce yourself to folks.
Randy:Go ahead, Wendell.
Wendall:Thank you. Well, guys, I'm thrilled to be with you today to, talk about coming alongside Shepherds. I did pastor for forty three years, worked in denominational work, and currently, I work for a, a foundation, a Christian foundation, and then also coaching with edified leaders. So I've got a strong, interest in coming alongside the next generation of shepherds.
Ray:That's awesome, Wendell. That's that's great. Alright, Randy. How about you?
Randy:I'm Randy Davis. Serve currently serving in Friendswood, Texas at First Baptist Church. I'm the connect pastor. And I, along with Wendell, love to come alongside pastors and other people that I can minister with. That's a key to me.
Randy:I have got plenty of people in my life that do that with me. One is Ray Sanders. He and I've been friends for a long time. We'll leave it at that. A long time.
Ray:At least fifty years. That's saying something.
Randy:Yes. I I think it's key to ministry that you have someone by your side, someone that's in your corner, someone that can understand what you're going through. And that's why this this segment is so important to all of us.
Ray:That's awesome, Randy. I I think a lot of people will find it interesting. You would consider yourself having been in ministry since you were 16 years old.
Randy:Correct.
Ray:Yeah. You've and you've served in mega churches, large churches, small churches. I know for a fact that you've done just about every aspect of the ministry, including cleaning toilets. Am I right?
Randy:Yes.
Ray:Had to bring
Randy:Jesus. Thank you for bringing that up.
Ray:That's good. Well, guys, let's jump in here and gain some insight into the pastoral, the ministry world. I wanna tackle a tough question, and here it is. You know, why do you guys think why is it that it seems almost like a day doesn't go by that we hear of somebody who's had some sort of ministry failure, and it ends up being something that they slipped into. Why is it?
Ray:What causes? What happens? How is it that they slip into this secret double life, and what's causing it? Let's talk about it. I'd I'd love to hear from you guys.
Ray:Well, sure.
Wendall:I got some ideas. I I think, foundationally, guys, the expectation for a shepherd to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ is the same as a believer with the exception of executing the word of God. So our standard is very high. It's just as high as everybody else. And secondly and, Tom, we're hearing a lot about this today, impostor syndrome.
Wendall:And the the idea is that we know we're not worthy. We know this, but then others tend to wanna put the the minister on a pedestal sometimes just to knock him off that. But so there's this unfair expectation. And then I'll just say one more thing. I I think the way that we become aware of this is to understand that all of us have a predisposition to the flesh, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the boastful pride of life.
Wendall:So to know ourself helps us get over any enemy attack that we're going to have. And then I would I'd wrap it up by saying this. Think what we see in in the daily falling of leaders, I think has a lot to do with social media. It's just out there. Wow.
Wendall:Everything that happens to everybody becomes visible.
Ray:That's good.
Wendall:Yeah. That's true. That's a good point.
Ray:Randy, what are your thoughts?
Randy:I would agree with you, Wendell. It the social media aspect is is in our face. It is always present. And if you take a a mind picture of a herd trying to eat and do their thing, relate it to the body of Christ, then here comes the enemy. They're gonna go after the older ones, and they're gonna go after the young weak ones.
Randy:And that's that's the enemy. That's Satan doing that. And and then particularly, he know he's gonna have to be pretty crafty to go after a leader, a pastor, a shepherd, but he will whittle away at that person's integrity small chunks at a time.
Ray:Yeah.
Randy:And it seemingly is unknown to that person. And then when it happens, it's a surprise to him and to everybody else, mainly not so much him because he's finally aware of what's really been brought to light. So we've gotta keep in mind what what that what goes on in the darkness is will be exposed in the light. And, that's an encouragement that I'm I wanna share with the pastors. We've gotta be careful with who we are, who we spend time with, and be very guarded and with accountability people that we are rubbing arms with and rubbing shoulders with.
Ray:That's a keyword, accountability. We're gonna talk more about that, I know, as this show progresses. But the truth is, it's those little compromises that we allow into our life. Oh, I'll be fine. I'll take one peek.
Ray:I'll take one glance. And the thing that kind of motivates me and every once in a while I kind of have to have a check-in my heart is that I have a target on my back. All of us do as believers. You know, the scripture says that they will know that we are his disciples by our love for one another. And it seems like people are beginning to know us for other reasons they love.
Tom:That's good.
Ray:And I I hate that. And it's not just it's not just our ministers. It's not just our pastors. But we're known for what we're against, and and we're known for what we're not doing right. And and these secret things come out, But it's that slippery slope.
Ray:I I'm not gonna get it exactly exactly right, but, you know, sin will take you further than you really wanna go. Mhmm. And it's it just kinda creeps its its way in, and before you know it, you're in the you're making headlines. And those those are the things that's not the reason we wanna be in the news. We're not perfect.
Ray:No one is expected to be perfect, but it it is wrapped up in this whole thing about accountability and trust, and it's so hard for a minister to know I hate to say this for the folks that are in in the churches and are involved in the ministry. It's just hard for a minister to know who to trust. And it all goes back to that relationship that we see throughout the scripture. The Lord never sent anybody out one by one. He sent them out two by two.
Ray:And part of what's so great about the ministry of edified leaders is that that ministry comes alongside ministers helping them navigate the challenges and opportunities that they face. And our coaches, the coaches that edify leaders get real, and we're gonna unpack that. But it it is it is. It's about accountability. That's a tough word.
Ray:We like to say fierce accountability, identify leaders, fierce accountability, followed with unwavering encouragement, support and challenge, support and challenge, and not just letting them off the hook. But, yeah, it's just tough.
Tom:No. I think that's I mean, it's it's it's one of those things that it's a slippery slope. It doesn't happen overnight. I think that's the thing. That's the big thing right there that we've gotta take note of is when we see it in the headlines, it didn't just happen the day before.
Tom:It's something that's been ongoing that has led to kind of the culmination is that point that makes it in the headlines. So what I wanna hit on real quick is this. What are some, let's call it, stronghold sins that ministers struggle with?
Wendall:Well, Tom, I would like to start by saying it's, you mentioned the slippery slope. I would add a word to that. It's a subtle slippery slope.
Ray:For sure.
Wendall:And what happens as a believer, we often start our our pilgrimage in a legalistic mindset. Mhmm. So as we grow, then we begin to to operate in grace. So we can take, if we're not careful, that grace for granted Mhmm. Because we're not legalistic, and the next thing we're doing is we're we're living in compromise.
Wendall:It's a subtle slippery slope, and it's it has snuck up on us, And we are very capable of living lives that we thought we would never do, and we it all kinda starts by living under grace. So you ask, what do we have to be careful about? It's kinda one zero one. It's what we see, what we hear, and what we say.
Randy:Yeah.
Wendall:And those things, I think, are vital to keep us from the subtle slippery slope.
Ray:Yeah. I don't I don't think a lot of these things are mysteries to guys and and and ladies that might be listening. It's like the these are the basics. But all of a sudden, you find yourself in a situation, and you mentioned it earlier. We talked about social media.
Ray:I'm just gonna make it a broader statement in the sense of digital media world. They're tools, but they're also temptations. And these cell phones, these screens, anything flat screen, you know, it's so private. It's so hidden. And one thing leads to another.
Ray:You know, you get into a tiff with your spouse. Things aren't going well. The pressures of your kids, the pressures of financial things, and you just need something. Sometimes we self medicate. Sometimes we self medicate with prescription drugs.
Ray:Sometimes we self medicate by tipping a bottle of alcohol. Sometimes we we play around with other drugs. But one of the things that I think is what I'm seeing, and I I don't know what we're gonna do about it, but I'm telling you, and there's some there's some resources out there for this, but pornography has become something that is storming ministry. And it's so private, so secret, so innocent, one thing leads to another and it's this flat screen and being able to do things and let your mind run with things that really just begin to take you away and next thing you know, your spouse finds out and for them, and this is coming from talking with ministers that I deal with, for them, the spouses, this is the same. Somehow we discount this, but pornography in particular, it's like adulterous.
Ray:It's no different. It may not be someone physically with you but in your mind and otherwise it is just as real and for that spouse it's devastating but it's so, so strong that this is this is one of the things that I see in terms of things that people struggle with. What else, guys?
Randy:Well, I would encourage us to have our spouse involved in our ministry in every regard. And, I remember years ago as a single adult pastor, greeted a young lady that became new to our ministry, and her handshake to me was really frightening. So as I shook hands and I tried to just lay leave the tat, she held on to my hand until I basically pulled away and pulled out of that handshake. I immediately went to my wife, Amy, and I said, anytime I'm around this woman, you make sure everything's clean and above board because something's going on, and I shared Amy the handshake. It was weird.
Randy:And, sadly to say, she she took out a pastor, that ended up getting divorced from his wife, and that broke my heart. But if our wives are knowing what's going on, knowing what's going on with us, if we're truthful with them, which we should be, they should know everything about us, they can safeguard us in a great way. And, Ray, let me let me add add this. Do you remember we went through a book when we were in our teens called dealing with the devil? Mhmm.
Randy:Sure. Love it? Yeah. That book was amazing to me. And the author talked about how the mind is the target of the enemy.
Randy:Mhmm. If he can control our mind, he can control everything about us, and that was so alarming to me. And then you look at the scriptures that that God provides for us. Ephesians six, the armor of God. And he says, put on the full armor of God.
Randy:Put on the helmet of salvation, which is protects our mind, and then the other five items of protection for us spiritually. So we've gotta protect our mind. It's it's something that, is quite important to Jesus, and it's if anything that's important to Jesus is, if not more important to Satan because he's gonna try and use anything he can to take us out. Yeah. It'll take this one chink in the armor, and we all know this.
Randy:He's looking for the weaknesses that, we're about. And one for me is is accountability. We've gotta stay accountable to people. I've got I'm I'm fortunate. I got people all across the country that I can call and say, hey.
Randy:I need some help here. They're praying for me. They're they're with me. They're checking on me, and I'm checking on me. Accountability is key.
Ray:One of the things that you brought up, was the involvement of your spouse. And one of the things that Stephanie and I do is we share the same password. We share the same password for our phones. So at any given point, I can hand her my phone and she can look at it and see anything she wants to see. She can look at my search history, whatever, and same way with her.
Ray:And that that should be the same way with your computer and everything else. It's it's not that it's gonna prevent everything, but it's there's something about that just knowing that, you know what? I I don't wanna be looking at anything that my wife would, have reason to question me about. So that's just one practical tip. What are some other what are some other areas?
Ray:This may surprise if somebody's, not in ministry. They're gonna go, wait a minute. Are we talk is this an a show on addiction, or or or what kind of people we're talking about ministers here, and I think that's important for people to realize. Yes. Ministers are called to the ministry, but that doesn't mean they just got a pass when it comes to strongholds and sin.
Ray:The same things that the people and the people are struggling with are coming at ministers just the same. Yeah. So there is no difference. Maybe it's a wake up call for people that are listening out there, And maybe you as a minister, if you're listening, you just need to realize you're not above you're not above it. Mhmm.
Ray:The enemy's probably gonna come after you even more. But what are some other things that you guys are hearing as you're talking to pastors?
Randy:Well, one of the things that's listed
Wendall:here Go ahead, Randy. One of the
Randy:things that's listed here is isolation.
Ray:Mhmm.
Randy:Satan loves to take a person and isolate them. And if he can take out the lead pastor or any pastors or any husband, any wife, he's gotta win. So we've gotta stay connected to people. I get concerned with some of the guys that I have the privilege of talking to, mentoring, and I challenge them. You who's your best friend in ministry?
Randy:Who's your best friend locally where you're serving? And stay connected to them.
Ray:Yeah. I isolation is a big deal. I wanna I wanna define the issues. I wanna say them out loud because it's awkward. We've already talked about probably the biggest elephant grill in the room, pornography.
Ray:What are the stronghold sins that you're hearing that ministers are dealing with? Because if we can define them, we can attack them. And so what what are the things that you're seeing show up as you coach and are involved in people's lives?
Randy:What do think, Wendell?
Wendall:Randy and and Ray, you both done a good job of talking about, the value of accountability. So long before any of you were alive, there was a, kind of a famous book in the seventies, entitled Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am? Because if I tell you who I am, I'm afraid you won't like me. And and it goes back to this other famous book by Robert McGee called The Search for Significance. And we tend to attain our significance by what we do rather than whose we are.
Wendall:And then we are afraid to let someone in on the inside because they think we think they're going to see the real us, this impostor syndrome. And, Ray, you've really helped me historically see the value of just being real Mhmm. With people. And to our shepherds, finding having someone you can be real with, someone you you can talk about your struggles, you can talk about anything, I think that is tremendously valuable.
Ray:I call it being, hot. Find a relationship that you can be hot with, and that that stands for honest, open, and transparent. Honest. I'm I'm not gonna fib. I'm not gonna beat around the bush.
Ray:I'm gonna be honest about what's going on. Open. What does that mean? Well, when you're in a position of leadership and you're leading the flock and you're the man or you're the lady in charge, you have to be open to correction. You have to be open to being taught.
Ray:You have to remember that leaders still need to be led. We wanna maintain our desire to grow, So and we have to be open. And then just transparent, and that's the whole thing about about being real. I love that book by Robert McGee. That's a great book for anybody.
Ray:If you haven't dusted that one off, I happen to know that it's free for download on Spotify. I can't speak to if it is on other outlets. I'm just gonna name some things, guys. Pornography, substance abuse, more and more we're seeing how alcohol and things like that, prescription medications are creeping into ministers' lives. Interesting thing about alcohol, even guys like Joe Rogan are going are becoming teetotalers and being teetotalers kind of in, but there's a there was a certain wave here for a while.
Ray:It just kinda it was a free for all in terms of alcohol. Financial struggle. One of the things that just breaks my heart, and I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda get on the soapbox here for a minute, it is sad to me that so many of our ministers have financial struggles. And part of it is is they're underpaid. I'm just gonna say it.
Ray:You know, if you're on a personnel committee and you've got a minister, somehow somehow, well, they're called. And not every minister has taken the vow of poverty like mother Teresa. And somehow, we expect a minister to function on a nonlivable wage. I like to say it this way, would you live on that? Could you live on that?
Ray:And so many times you know who takes up the slack? The wives or the other spouse. So many I know ministers that don't the church doesn't provide any type of health care or anything like that, and the only reason they have any health care is because they might be getting it from the state or they might be getting it from their spouse's insurance. I'm just gonna say it. That's wrong.
Ray:You need to take care of your shepherd, and that financial pressure puts them in situations to where they're doing things and struggling where they shouldn't. Here's the other thing. Oh, big mystery. Ministers have marital struggles. You know what?
Ray:Even ministers do. And a lot of times I joke with my guys. I said, are you making headlines? And I said, what do you mean? I said, when's the last time you slept on the couch?
Ray:And they said, oh, do I have to tell you? And when I say headlines, I'm talking about sleeping on that couch because those corduroy pillows, you know, that they're on your couch? Those corduroy pillows, they make headlines. And if you're sleeping on that couch too much, you're gonna you're gonna have a you're gonna be making a headline. You're gonna have to you're gonna have to wash your face several times before you go into the church because everybody's gonna be like Wendell sleeping on the couch again.
Ray:And and I'm I wanna roll here, so I'm just gonna I'm just gonna keep going. I'm gonna tell you one of the biggest stronghold sense, and I'm gonna put it right up there with pornography, is people pleasing. Man, I just read in first Corinthians this morning where Paul says, look, I don't really give a rats what you think. I care what the Lord thinks. And part of that pastoral heart is the desire to people please, but the Lord does not want us to be subjective to people.
Ray:He wants us to follow the Holy Spirit and the conviction that the Holy Spirit gives us. And too many of us are worried about, well, if I upset this person or upset that person, I might get fired or I may not get a raise or I just wanna please them. The people pleasing is one that I that I see. And then it's these adulterous relationships. Somehow, some way, right situation, two lonely people meet at church.
Ray:Notice I didn't say at a bar. I didn't say at the workout facility. They met at church. She's in the choir. You know, he's in and the next thing you know, everybody's gone and they're hanging out, and now we're having an adulterous relationship, and years of ministry has blown up overnight.
Ray:So those are those are the some some that I see. Tom, were you gonna say something?
Wendall:No. The thing that I
Tom:was gonna hit on was this because you talked about in there. Obviously, there's there's more that you can go on, but these are the ones that we've been dealing with as coaches, as we're talking to ministers. It's what you're seeing in the headlines. But I wanted to hit on something because I'm I'm I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because Randy, Wendell, Ray, when when we're talking about it, we're talking about, sharing and being open with our wives. But what about pastors who are making headlines, sleeping on the couch, that don't have good relationships with their spouse?
Tom:Obviously, they need that taken care of, but you also know that's vulnerability that's a that's a vulnerable moment where they could slip into something, a habit that's gonna lead to what we're talking about today. So so when you don't have that kind of relationship with your spouse or you're on good terms at the moment, what do you need to do to stay accountable? I mean, here here's the other thing I'm gonna hit on. So you've got, let's say there's struggles in marriage, so that may not be an option right now. But then the pastor across the street and those that are around you, it's it's viewed as competition.
Tom:How do you fight against that? What do you need to do? Because I think, Randy, you hit on it. Hey, wives and other ministers. How do you, combat that if you're in an issue in a situation where you're struggling in both of those areas?
Tom:How do you become accountable? Who do you become accountable to? What do you need to do?
Ray:So the two questions, if I'm following you, is how do you deal with marital issues? Mhmm. And then the other one is even tough to say Mhmm. Is just overcome the thought that you're competing with other ministers.
Tom:Yeah. Because the goal is we're talking about and and we're gonna hit on this a little bit later too, but accountability is key. Yeah. You've gotta have people there. But if some of these that are close to you are not who you would gravitate towards for accountability, how do you need to reframe your mind?
Tom:Where do you go? What do you need to do?
Randy:I would say the first thing, and we did a conference years ago in in Oklahoma with single adults, and the whole weekend was entitled get real, be real. And part of that is surrendering to king Jesus, making him lord of your life. But if we're not gonna be real, it's gonna be difficult for us to move forward in any type of relationship, in any type of of these addictions or whatever these issues we're talking about. You gotta get rid with yourself. Yep.
Randy:And a lot of that, if not all of it comes, we know, by getting in God's word. And I know a lot of our our congregants are not in God's word nor are our pastors in God's word. And so we've gotta get real and surrender to king Jesus for for we he's who we serve. He's who we work for. He's who we wanna hear.
Randy:Well done, my good and faithful servant.
Tom:If that
Randy:can get real.
Tom:And, Randy, that fights against what Wendell was saying earlier about the impostor syndrome. Right? If you can automatically go into this saying, need to be real. What does it take for me to be real and to get real? And that's what it's got that's what's gonna allow me to be, the pastor and the man of God that I'm called to be.
Tom:That itself is a mind shift that has to happen if we're gonna avoid heading down this
Ray:path. So I'm gonna be the practical guy here. I'm hearing all the ministers that are out there get real, get real with my spouse, get real with my husband, get real with my wife. That's exactly why I do have headlines. I got real with them, and I'm on the couch.
Ray:But I'm gonna I'm gonna get real practical with you in this sense. I'm gonna give you a tool. If you go to edifyleaders.org, edifyleaders.org, we have an online assessment there called the relationship rater, and it's a great little tool. It helps you more or less take an assessment as to how your relationship is going. And if you haven't taken that or haven't taken something like that, there's a good chance that you're making a lot of assumptions about your relationship.
Ray:So when it comes to my to my marriage, kinda call it a a heart check or call it a checkup from a a head check. You know? What is really going on? We are we strangers in the night? There was a song by by that title, strangers in the night.
Ray:You know, I'm not gonna sing. That's not my calling. But but, you know, people it can become like a business relationship. And I I'm gonna say this. We have no problem with telling pastors and ministers what they ought to be doing.
Ray:I think most of them know what they ought to be doing. But how do how do they overcome it? And part of the issue for me is I think that we've forgotten where our first calling is. Now I know that this podcast is is talking about winning in ministry, but I could just as easy as say winning at home. Because we gotta keep the main thing the main thing and the first thing the first thing.
Ray:And here's the deal. You're only a good leader. Are you ready, pastor? You ready, minister? You're only as good a leader as you are at home.
Ray:Yeah. You cannot discount what's going on at home. If you're fussing and fighting with your wife and kids all the time, it impedes your ability to do ministry. And dare I say, dare I say, one of the disqualifiers for you as a leader, elder, whatever you wanna call yourself, in the church is how you run your household. And we're faking it.
Ray:A lot of guys are faking it. They're driving to the office, they're driving to the church, and and just dreading when they have to pull back into the driveway. And so we have to make that commitment. We have to find a coach. We have to find counseling.
Ray:There are a lot of free counseling services that are out there, but make the commitment to your family, to your wife. It matters, and it impacts your ministry. Wendell, you're you're ready to say something I can tell.
Wendall:Well, man, Ray, I I always like how that you keep it real. I guess, for a second, I I'd like to become the question asker and ask you three something. At what point do we share with our wives where we're hurting, and at what point do we protect them from issues over which they have no control nor can they be a part of the solution.
Ray:Well, I think what you're talking about there, Wendell, I'll just jump right in, has to do with trust. And you're gonna say, trust my wife? No. Trust the Lord. I'm a firm believer.
Ray:I'm gonna on the side of the two shall become one and that we are co laborers in Christ. And so I lean more toward openness with what's going on and together making it a matter of prayer because the two shall become one where two or more are gathered, the Lord will be there. And so we are co laborers and we're gonna build our ministry based on prayer and dealing with those issues. Now, do I wanna cause unnecessary stress? Do I need to tell her every time, everything?
Ray:Or him, every time, everything? I think that that's also a matter of trusting and praying and asking the Lord, how much of this do I share with my spouse? But I lean I lean more towards openness with my spouse. Now, as ministers, there are certain things that we have to hold in confidence. You know, you don't have a counseling session with somebody and come home and spill your guts with your wife.
Ray:That's part of the you know, this is like being a doctor or anybody else. But I think there's too many people that, well, church is church and home is home, and the two shall never meet. And I don't know about you guys, but ministry seems to be something that's all encompassing. So, yeah, there has to be a balance. I think it's an individual thing, but I'm going to lean more towards the fact that I'm gonna trust the Lord enough that he's giving me this helpmate, this comrade, this cohort, this companion who is doing life with me and that we are, dare I say, we are in ministry together.
Tom:No. That's really good. I mean, I think the thing is I would echo what Ray is saying, but then I also, tying into what you're asking, Wendell, I think one of the things that I found for me is there has to be a point where I share it with my wife no matter what. Right? So I've gotta come to that conclusion that I'm not gonna be hiding it.
Tom:And more often than not, I would lean towards, I'm gonna share everything with my spouse. But there are times where I've gotta look at this and say, okay. Do I tell her right at this initial phase? Like like you were asking, Wendell, it could just be destabilizing for no reason, and she may not be able to help in that moment. So then I still have to work towards a solution.
Tom:It doesn't mean that I isolate and don't share that. I've gotta find someone, mentors, others that I know that could speak into it, and it may not be when it's completely healed and finished that I shared. I might share it in process with my spouse, but it's not when the bomb exploded, it's as things are being put back together, if that makes sense.
Ray:Timing's everything.
Tom:Timing's everything.
Ray:And that's the Holy Spirit aspect. That's why I'm saying, when is the right time? Now I know that's kind of a softball answer, but I do think that it's a matter of prayer. And let's just be honest, there's times that we we try to overthink it, and we try to consider what we can rationalize. And the Lord's waiting.
Ray:Hey. I'm here for you. Holy Spirit's there waiting and willing to guide us on the on the timing of things.
Tom:Well, and some of that timing and I'll joke to you, but some of that timing happens over time. For sure. Sometimes you tell your spouse and you're going, oh, that timing was off. You know what I'm saying? And and sometimes you learn through the process.
Tom:And so that's where, again, you're maturing, you're growing, you're seeing when I need to do things, but you have an open relationship to be able to say, I'm gonna tell her, but it's just a matter of sometimes it's it's over time. So timing's everything.
Ray:Anything from you, Randy, on Wendell's question?
Randy:No. I'm good.
Ray:You're good? Okay.
Randy:I'm good.
Ray:I wanna come back to something.
Tom:Hold on. Hold on. I don't think I've heard Randy ever say, I'm good. I'm good. Just leave it.
Tom:That that's a first, Randy. That's a good one, brother.
Ray:Well, he was I think he was referencing Robert McGee's book. You know, he's very confident in himself. I'm good. I'm okay. His faith and trust is in the Lord.
Ray:I wanna come back to something. I know we gotta keep moving here, but I wanna come back to something that I don't wanna miss. And I I I I wanna talk a little bit about what leads leads to back to that topic of secret sin. What leads to we've touched on it, but I'm gonna nail it in terms of three things that I think lead people down this slippery, subtle slope that Wendell talked about. And, Randy, you touched on it, but I think it's three i's.
Ray:Three i's. Isolation. We start having a feeling. We start having an attitude. We start having a mindset.
Ray:And it's human nature. We begin to migrate away from our accountability even to the Lord. We don't even talk as if we're hiding. It's like Adam in the garden, you know? I mean, God created the fig leaves.
Ray:It's not like he didn't know what's under it. Right? And so the bottom the bottom line is we kinda we kinda we kinda even isolate ourselves from the Lord and other people. We and it's like we have a sunburn. We just don't want any more sun.
Ray:So we began to cocoon. We isolate. We pull away. And if you're listening and you've you're finding yourself pulling away from friends, not making those calls, you're afraid they might ask you a question or they might be suspicious, there's there's your first flag.
Randy:Yep.
Ray:There's your first flag. And then the second thing is idleness. And I hate to say this, but some guys have gotten ministry down so good, they're bored. And they just they've got it down. They're just bored.
Ray:You know? It's it's like so routine in this idleness. They've what what what am I saying? They've lost vision. And let me tell you something.
Ray:If you become so idle that you don't have something that you're driving towards, pushing towards, you've lost vision for your church, you've lost vision for your marriage, you've lost vision for who you are as a follower of Jesus and what you wanna become, you become idle. You become apathetic. And in that idleness, you just kinda you you just kinda get stuck in the muck. And Yeah. Without a vision, the people perish, and so we become idle.
Ray:And then then what happens with that idleness, a good example of that idleness, a real practical piece of that idleness, you go to a conference. Right? You go to a pastor's conference. You go to a ministry conference and your wife didn't go and you're down in the hotel lobby and boy, there's a set of legs sitting across from me. You're like, wow.
Ray:That's pretty nice and she's young and I think she's actually looking at me. And then you go up to your room, you get past that and you're in your room and you're going, well, what am I going to do till tomorrow? Oh, there's that television. Oh, I'm by myself. Let's just turn that baby on.
Ray:Oh, there's some pretty sweet channels on there that I don't have at home. I'm gonna take a peek at that. And the next thing you know, that idleness that idleness is the next I. And the next I is idolatry. Not adultery, idolatry.
Ray:And if you look at that word idolatry, there's a word in there, and that word is idle. And what is an idle? An idle is a substitute for what's real. Yeah. It's a substitute.
Ray:And all these things that we've talked about, pornography, alcohol, all these other things are substitutes for what the Lord has for us. And so that's how we get there. We begin to isolate, we become idle, and then we commit idolatry. We begin to substitute things of the Lord Yeah. With things of the world.
Ray:And the next thing we know, the cameras are rolling and we're no longer in ministry. Mhmm.
Tom:That's good. What thoughts do you guys have on that, Randy and Wendell, as you kinda hear that? Because I I I think that's well summed up. The three the three i's really encompasses, what leads to the secret sin. But but as he says that, what kinda sticks out to you guys?
Randy:I was, we're studying the book of Ephesians in my connect group, and I love Ephesians. But if you jump to Revelation chapter two, what did God have against the church at Ephesus? When did they leave? They left their first love. And we've gotta get back to that, as a church.
Randy:We've gotta get back to that as individuals. We gotta get back to that as pastors, as staff. We gotta get back to our first love. And the the one that first loved me the most who died for us, we all know is Jesus, but it can never be overstated too much.
Ray:Something you said
Randy:That's my
Ray:Something you said right there, I'll say another way, Randy. And I hear this all the time, and I've seen guys do it with tears in their eyes. They say somewhere along the way, I've lost my passion for my calling, and what I'm doing has just become a job. Man, if we could just fall in love with the Lord again and realize that he's interested in us as a person, not as a pastor. He's interested in us.
Ray:He wants to walk with us even after forty years of ministry, forty plus years with you guys. I mean, the Lord is saying, look, I'm just as interested in you as a person as I was when when when you're a pastor. And we just have to begin to realize how much the Lord loves us. I wanna kind of bring up one more thing, and that is, you know, what can we do right now? What can we do that's real practical?
Ray:And I'm gonna set the tone with this with a passage in James five sixteen, and we've touched about it. But if you haven't addressed or taken a look at that scripture in a while, I think that this might be the key the key to healing, the the key, dare I say the word recovery, to getting past these stronghold sins, and it's rooted in James five sixteen. And it says, therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another so that what? So that you'll be healed. That doesn't happen alone.
Ray:That means you're gonna have to find somebody. You need to find a coach. You need to you need to find somebody in your life that you can get real with, get hot, honest, open, and transparent. It might be a coach. It might be the folks at edify leaders.
Ray:It might be a trusted friend, but you cannot hear me out, if you hear anything about winning in ministry, you can't do it alone. You cannot do it alone. Quit. Stop it right now. Well, it's too hard or I don't have anybody.
Ray:Well, get on your knees and beg the Lord. I'm gonna tell you something very real. When I first came to faith, I had a whole group of friends, and I thought one of my biggest struggles is if I follow this Jesus thing, I'm gonna have to change the way I live and the people I hang out with. And a lack of friendship was one of the things that scared me to death. Now I'm gonna give you a testimony right now.
Ray:I told the Lord. I said, Lord, I'm I'm I'm following you, but what I ask is, could you give me just one good friend? That friend is on this podcast with me today. Fifty years later, the Lord can bring those people into your life. Yeah.
Ray:The Lord can give you an old deacon that'll keep his mouth shut. The Lord can give you another pastor across the county that'll keep their mouth shut. The Lord can make available to you coach, a coach at edify leaders dot org, and we can hook you up. And you might be in Canada. You might be in Africa.
Ray:You might be in California. I don't know where you are, but we can we can we can get together. You don't have to go go it alone, and you weren't designed to. It's not what God intended. He sent them out by twos as disciples.
Ray:He put them on the ark the same way. You are not to go about it alone.
Tom:So I like that, Ray, because I think one of the things is we pray about everything else. Right? We pray for healing. We pray for our church, our congregants, the people. We're we're praying, but we need to be praying for accountability, praying for the right people in our lives that we can share life with.
Tom:Not not, you know, not share life with, but truly, like Randy was saying, where we can be real, get real, lay our guards down, not have to worry what's gonna happen after this conversation, but recognize this is a safe place. It is a place where someone can encourage me, someone can build me up in the faith, help me see the perspective. If I've lost my first love, bring me back to it. But we've gotta pray for that because it's not just gonna happen. It's you gotta be proactive.
Tom:You've gotta be seeking the Lord for that. Let me ask you guys this real quick. Randall and Wendell, if and and Ray, you mentioned this, but if someone is struggling right now with the secret sin, if they're harboring a secret sin, what would you tell them if you're sitting across from them if you've got an opportunity? Because we do. There are many on the other side that are hearing this.
Tom:But if someone is dealing with the secret sin, what's your word to them?
Wendall:Well, I think the the whole ministry of edified leaders offers coaching for those who are outside the congregation. So I really struggle in having shepherds being coached by sheep. And so to your Thomas, to to your question, I think we find someone who's been there and done that. And there's two words I use. We have to trust people, and they have to be trustworthy
Tom:Yeah. It's really
Wendall:to keep our heart. And I'm fully appreciative of someone disagreeing with me on this, but I typically don't think that's church members. Yeah. And that's why it's valuable to to to have a coaching cohort like this of some guys who can come around.
Ray:Yeah. I think that's fair, Wendell.
Tom:Yep. Definitely.
Ray:Randy, we'll give you the last word before we wrap this bad boy up.
Randy:Whoever's listening, I would encourage us to go back to the beginning, back to Genesis. All the great things that God created, he said it was good. And the first time that he mentioned something not good was for Adam to be alone. Don't do life alone.
Ray:That's good.
Randy:It's it's not in your favor. God's not in favor of that. He created man and woman. He knew that man did needed a helpmate, and, boy, did we ever need a helpmate. I'm so appreciative of my wife, Amy.
Randy:She's awesome. We're gonna soon celebrate thirty six years of marriage, and I'm grateful. I really am. So, guys, don't think you can do it alone, whoever's listening.
Tom:That's really good. Well, Wendell, Randy, Ray, it's been such a joy to have this conversation. It's crucial. It's critical. It's much needed.
Tom:And the prayer is that through this conversation, you're able to to to to seek the help that you need from others knowing that you don't have to do this alone, but you can win in ministry when you come alongside others who are able to walk with you on this journey. Well, winning in ministry is brought to you by Edify Leaders. We've mentioned it multiple times, throughout the podcast, but Edify Leaders is a donor funded coaching, program that we have for pastors and ministry leaders. It's devoted to encouraging them to reach their full potential in life and in ministry. So you can learn more about the work of Edify Leaders, its mission.
Tom:You can even be a part of the movement by heading over to edifyleaders.org. Thank you so much for joining us today. Keep winning
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