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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown: I'm all right. How are you?
Becky Mollenkamp: Good. I'm okay. The cold and flu season hit the house and has, I think, hopefully mostly left the house. So our Thanksgiving was long, it was nice, but it was long. And readjusting has been challenging. Like the reintroduction after like five and basically really I was off for mostly 10 days. My kid only had one real day of school last week. So anyway, yeah, it's a hard readjustment, but I'm surviving. And yesterday was Giving Tuesday after Cyber Monday and Black Friday and Small Business Saturday. Do they have a Sunday one yet? It seems like every day at some point, it's just going to be the 25 days of commerce. But yesterday was supposed to be Giving Tuesday, which I think was created as an antidote to all of that consumerism, right? Like, we're all this money on gifts and things. How about we also remember to use our money in a more charitable way, which I think is lovely in the concept. But it made me, I was thinking yesterday, because I was listening to a story on NPR, as it was giving Tuesday, talking about giving and how it's down and has been going down for a while, since COVID basically, the numbers had kind of gone up and then it's been this big steady decline. And it had me thinking about giving and charity and these ideas. And I was like, let's talk a little bit about that because it's very timely, very seasonal. And I have some thoughts, one of which I posted yesterday on Blue Sky, which is where I now hang out instead of threads, which was a reminder for white bodied folks that when we think about how we are using our money, to remember that we should stop calling it charity and start thinking about it and calling it what it is, which is either depending on how you look at it. And I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this too, but wealth redistribution, which is what I generally think of and say, or reparations, which I tend to think of as this more systemic sort of thing that comes from the government. But I think it's also like micro-reparations and or wealth redistribution. But this idea of charity, as I said, was like, is very rooted, I think, in white saviorism and is not really all that helpful, ultimately. So anyway, that's, I think that's a jumping off point for us to talk a little bit about this. Does any of that bring anything up for you?
Taina Brown: I agree. think the whole Giving Tuesday thing was created as an antidote to the over consumption of the weekend after Thanksgiving slash the National Day of Mourning for Indigenous people. I have a problem with that, though. I think the whole concept of these days where you spend money on a specific thing after a big holiday like that, it still feels like lot of manufactured urgency for me. And so I don't like the feeling of like, well, it's giving Tuesday, so you should give on Tuesday. It's like, why not give all year? But also I have a lot of feelings about philanthropy and charities and things like that. And I worked at a nonprofit that was, for a couple years, was in the philanthropy sector and helped other nonprofit and startup founders who were in philanthropy to set up their systems and their structures and things like that to have the most impact. so I definitely And I also like, was it, and I think I've talked about this in a previous episode, like heavily involved in the evangelical church, also worked in an evangelical church, which was really big on charitable giving every year as well. And so I have seen this from like both sides, from like the outside and from the inside. So I definitely, definitely have a lot of thoughts. I don't like charitable giving. I'll just say that point.
Becky Mollenkamp: Before you go farther though, when you say charitable giving, define what you mean, because I think that is part of the problem, because at least the folks that are out there tracking charitable giving, what they mean and how they define it is money given to 501 C3s and or similar nonprofit organizations. So that are doing, you know, theoretically good work in the world. That is one way to look at charitable giving. But I think we could look at it in many other ways. And so my guess is that when you're talking about it, you're talking about it in that specific way, but I just want to be sure.
Taina Brown: I think I'm talking about it in any kind of way. Anytime we frame it as charitable giving, whether it's to a specific organization or from one individual to another doing, quote unquote, charitable giving, I don't like the framing of that language. And so I think when we're talking about at the organizational level, nonprofits and charities shouldn't exist. Like, just think it's one of those things. Well, first of all, in philanthropy, like so much of the money that goes into philanthropy, hardly, not, I wouldn't say hardly ever, but so much of the money that goes into philanthropy goes into operating the philanthropic organization, right? So only a percentage of what is actually given to an organization makes its way down to the people that it's trying to help because you have to pay salaries, you have to pay taxes, you have to spend money on supply. It's taken this idea of helping people and put it within a capitalist structure that makes it impossible to actually see big impact on a day-to-day level. Like charities and philanthropic organizations should not exist because the reason that they do exist is because people are not getting their needs met.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ding, ding. Right? That's the systemic problem, right? That's, if we're talking about the big global picture of it, I agree. The problem is the government using our tax dollars, which is why we pay tax dollars, is not doing a good job of making sure that people have their needs met. And I'm willing to pay more in taxes. I'd happily go live in the Netherlands where they pay far higher taxes, but where we actually have a social system of making sure that our fellow countrymen and women are taken care of, right? That we have our basic needs met at minimum. And that isn't happening. And that's like systemic failures that then nonprofits are coming in to try and fill those gaps. And this system has become now, it's just assumed that those are the people taking care of these things, right? And it excuses the government from having to take care of those things. And then the piece that you said about capitalism infecting nonprofits, you can't escape capitalism inside of capitalism and so nonprofits are not exempt from that. And while I think you and I would both agree that anyone who's doing service delivery or helping to work inside of an organization that is whether it's for profit or nonprofit, like if you're doing work, you should be paid a living wage. So I would never fault the people inside of a nonprofit for drawing a living wage. They should receive a living wage for doing important work. However, or and when you go, there are places that track how much CEOs and other high level folks at nonprofits make. And I am sorry, I don't know that the CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center should be making $8 million if it's a nonprofit. I don't know that the CEO Nancy Brown of American Heart Association should be making $4 million if it's a nonprofit. They should be paid a living wage, right? And they should be paid well for what they bring to that space. But I think unfortunately what's happening is Because I can assure you, the American Heart Association may be paying its CEO four million, but they have workers there, the ones that are answering the phones and doing like making the brochures and keeping the website up to date, who are not making that level of money. They have the same problems inside those organizations that you do at any for-profit organization where the top down, the financing structure is that the people at top are making this giant percentage of the money that's being allocated for salaries and other people are suffering. And so I don't think these CEOs need to have all of this. I mean, I was just looking like City of Hope. I'm not even sure what that one is, but the CEO makes 3.6 million, which includes bonus and incentive compensation. Why should a CEO of a nonprofit? Like what is the bonus and incentive about? I have a lot of problems with all of that in the same way that you do. So yes, like these organizations, you can go to places like Charity Navigator, which is really helpful if you are somebody who still wants to give to nonprofits to see how much of their money is being spent on salaries versus program delivery. But even so, some of these, mean, the American Heart Association is certainly not a group that I think people would put on a naughty list. And yet their CEO is making $4 million or Memorial Sloan Kettering, which is a great cancer center, but their CEO is making $8.1 million. That's wild to me.
Taina Brown: Yeah. It is wild. And I think if you want to pay yourself $8.1 million, sure. But what is everyone else getting paid? The issue is not the amount of money that is going. The issue is the disparity in how the money is being distributed. so this is what I think sometimes gets lost in the conversation when people are talking about like ethical millionaires or ethical billionaires. It's like, it's not that they're making so much money, that there's such a disparity in how the money is distributed.
Becky Mollenkamp: When they're making a hundred times more than their, or a thousand or more. I mean, Bezos versus his lowest paid employee has got to be hundreds of thousands of percent difference. And that is, mean, I know it's going to that's for profit, but even this, and I think most people who are giving money to something like the American Heart Association or Memorial Sloan Kettering aren't thinking, this money that I worked really hard for, right? This $50 that took me like a lot of saving to pull together is going to go to pay this CEO $8 million. And not all of it is, but to be able to pay him a million dollars, they're having to raise so much more money and then of course spending the money to raise the money when all of that is money that we could collectively put together to actually have a far greater impact if we removed so much of those layers.
Taina Brown: The other thing in that system that is really fucked up too is that like you have, you know, big corporations who can contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars that go towards these obnoxious salaries that create the disparity within the nonprofit industry and nonprofit industrial complex. I'll call it that. And those corporations, they're getting a tax break, right? So they're incentivized to make these contributions, right? Which you and me as like, quote unquote, the little people, like when we make a $50 contribution or $100 contribution, like there's outside of just feeling good about donating money, there's no other incentive because it's not a large enough amount for us for it to make a difference in our tax bill.
Becky Mollenkamp: Only for people who are itemizing like you and I as business owners, but for average folks who work a nine to five, who are drawing a salary and don't have rental properties and aren't making a ton of money, don't run a business, if you're just able to file a form easy, you know, and you don't have to do itemization, then yeah, charitable giving does not help you. And even if you do, let's be honest, it's to a pretty small degree for most of us, because we're not able to give at the level that, you know, these CEOs and others that make lots of money are giving. And that is exactly the problem is that so much of that money is not being given for a truly charitable, as in a heart centered space. It's being given as how do get money off my taxes? Which just means I just got to give it to somebody who's a 501c3. And the people who are making that decision then are oftentimes like, because there are these people who are in it for the taxes and for the notoriety of giving, because let's be honest, lot of those corporations and large leaders of corporations are giving money so that they can say they gave money and that they did good, right? They're doing it for the PR of it. So then often they're looking for the people who are gonna throw them a party, right? Who are gonna make them a plaque, who are gonna give them a wing of a hospital and name it after them, but do all of these things that often then cost money to do. The amount of like balls and things that people are doing to self congratulate, right? All of the self congratulatory bullshit that happens with these organizations and people giving. It's a lot like the award ceremonies for the Oscars and things like that. yeah, and that's really gross and no longer feels at all like you were giving cause you care, right?
Taina Brown: And so then what it really looks like is just like these millionaires or billionaires or big corporations just paying for the self-congratulations, paying for the quote unquote honor to have that hospital wing named after them.
Becky Mollenkamp: And to be in the room with other people too, right? Which we can't overlook because that's why so many of the organizations that continue to get, it feels similar and again, in so many ways to what happens inside of capitalism where the rich get richer and it's the rich nonprofits get richer because they have the name behind them, they've got. They have the pretty, they can make things look nice. They can throw the big ball, the kinds of things that those rich people want to see happen, to feel good about giving them their money, right? And so those organizations just keep getting more and more, which is why the Heart Association can afford to pay its CEO four million or Memorial Sloan Kettering can pay eight million because they have so much money coming in. But then you look at the number of organizations that are just trying to stay afloat.
Taina Brown: Survive, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right? Where there people are working for nothing and it's, listen to the pretty music in the background. Was it phone ringing?
Taina Brown: That was my wife's phone.
Becky Mollenkamp: Anyway, and so the disparities are there in so many ways. And I want, let's talk about another disparity. Cause I think this is so important. Who is making the decisions about how charitable quote unquote giving, how that money is being used. And that to me ultimately is probably one of the biggest problems I have, and that I think you have, with the whole nonprofit industrial complex as you call it, as it currently exists. More than, I'm just looking at a current stat from the nonprofit quarterly, which is a nonprofit board or a nonprofit organization that runs a publication. And more than three quarters, 77 % of nonprofit board chairs are white, 70 % of CEOs and executive directors of nonprofits identify as white. So we're talking like roughly the same number. So somewhere in the like 65 to 75 % range of the key decision makers within nonprofits, not necessarily the workers, right? The people who doing the delivery. But those are white people. And we could probably look and more than likely we would find it's more white men than women. But that's probably closer than it used to be. But the disparities around race are not changing, right? And so it's white people deciding who gets money and who doesn't, who receives help and who doesn't. And that is really problematic. And again, it goes back to that white saviorism. another reason why I think we have to really rethink about giving because where are we giving and who then gets to decide what's happening with that money? It's very often going into the hands of white people who are then using that money to help marginalized communities, even if they don't aren't a part of that marginalized community. They don't know what that marginalized community really wants and needs. basically saying, we'll help you if you show up the way we We want you to. Right. It's very conditional giving to right, because they they don't say, here's money. Go spend it how you feel.
Taina Brown: Yeah, there are strings attached.
Becky Mollenkamp: And so it's really, really problematic when we think about how the money is. Who's getting to decide? And beyond that, similarly, it's also the rich people are deciding, right? Because they decide which charities they're giving to. I don't need Jeff Bezos to be deciding how the wealth that he has created on the backs of other folks should be spent. I don't think that that is right or fair or just, right? And so that I think is a big problem too.
Taina Brown: Yeah, it is. I mean, I remember reading an article about, and I think this was one of Kimberlé Crenshaw's articles about intersectionality, I think it was Korean women who were in like domestic abuse situations. I don't remember if it was Kimberlé Crenshaw. I don't know, it was an article when I was in school, which was a long time ago. But what stood out to me was that the writer of the article was discussing how you have these homeless or domestic violence shelters and organizations that are nonprofits that are meant to help, but because there's a lack of cultural knowledge because there's a detachment from the people who are operating these spaces from the communities that they're actually trying to serve. That creates more barriers to the support that they're trying to give. And so there are rules like you couldn't, like if you called, there was no one who could speak your language. in order for you to get the service that you need, right? Once you went, you absolutely had to learn English. You had to cut off contact with family. culturally, some people who live in specific cultures, that's impossible for them to do. There's no real cultural knowledge about how family systems operate outside of the dominant white norm that it created barriers. And so you had these domestic violence victims or survivors, whatever language you want to use, who found it impossible to stay, but also impossible to leave because this nonprofit that is so detached from their reality and was meant to help was actually creating barriers. And I think that's what you're getting at. well, that's one of the things I think that you're getting at is a sense of detachment. You can just throw your money at something and be like, OK, I did my part. But there's no real engagement. And there's no real understanding of what it is that that community actually needs. And so there's a lot of symbolic work that is being done that isn't actually making any impact in the communities. And then that creates this cycle of just like, well, the community still needs help, so we still need to be operating, so we still need to raise money. And so it just becomes this cyclical kind of thing where it's just a constant loop cycle of fundraising and donations and work that isn't really, maybe like 2 % of the work is actually making an impact and the other 98 % is just for show. And then you just kind of repeat the process, rinse and repeat over and over again. And yeah, I have, I just. I don't like it. I don't like it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, well, and I think for me, it's like this idea of charity or even wealth redistribution or whatever. It is part and parcel of the problems that exist inside of our systems. It is a system that is about. Perpetuating the problems that exist, right, because it is the house continue to be the haves and they get to decide what the have nots can and can't have, right? Because they're the ones who are deciding what charities get money, what nonprofits are receiving money and how much they're the ones who are, well, first of all, they're making that money unethically, right? The wealthiest of people are making that money unethically, whether they are unethical people, good or bad people, it doesn't matter. The way they are making that money is unethical because of the disparities that we've already talked about in the for-profit sector, right, because the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. And that wealth disparity is growing at an astronomical rate. Like it is terrifying when you look at the numbers over the last 40 years, how that number of how much the rich hold versus the poor have, it just, the gap gets bigger and bigger. So they're making all of their money on the backs of other folks who are not being paid proportionally for their contribution. So the money is being made unethically to keep it in the hands of those with power. And then those with power get to decide who gets them. Like, how's that money gonna, where's the money gonna go? To which organizations will I give it? And then those are, those organizations are being run by the people with the most privilege and power. And then they're deciding how to use that money generally to benefit those with the least power and privilege. And so now they are telling those people, here's what you get and don't get, and here's how we're gonna let you use it, right? And we're gonna make you feel bad about it generally. And the whole system is really, really F'ed up. And by the way, the other thing we didn't talk about, I think it's kind of important to mention when we're talking about charitable giving, is that the largest proportion, almost half of charitable giving is to churches, to religion. Because in America still, churches are nonprofits. And so the bulk of the money is actually going to churches, which means half of, because it's about a half a billion dollars, I think, or half a trillion, half a trillion dollars that Americans contribute to nonprofits every year. That's a lot of money. That's more than the GDP of a lot of small nations, right? And half of that, so a quarter of a trillion dollars is going to religious organizations, to churches, which we know, like I have lots of thoughts about how they're using their money and what's happening inside that. it's take everything that we talked about with nonprofits and make it 10 times worse because so much of that is staying internally, right? And to make the folks like Joel Osteen freaking rich. has private jets, right? And he's flying around on tax free money. It's outrageous. So we can take away half of it already and say half of that charitable giving is a joke. A joke because it's not even meant to help anyone. It is meant to line the pockets of a bullshit priest and real priests, right? Like of all these preachers and folks and make their churches more beautiful and all these things, but a small percentage of that then really going to help people who need anything. And again, why are those people deciding who gets help anyway? And then the other half of it is everyone else fighting for it. And the bulk of it goes to this handful of organizations that we all know that are national. And then that slowly gets distributed out to local level. And by the time it does, only a portion of what was given is actually going to the delivery at that local level. So many people just donate to national organizations like a Planned Parenthood or American Heart Association or whatever. That money is going to the top and then barely, you know, it's barely getting filtered out. So everything about the system's broken. I think we agree. Okay.
Taina Brown: Yeah, that whole system is based on trickle-down economics, right? Which in and of itself is fucking problematic, aka Reaganomics, you know? So if you don't know anything about trickle-down economics, the quick gist of it is that, if we make those at the top wealthy, if we make sure that those people are taken care of, it'll trickle down to everyone else.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, because those people will spend money and help keep the economy going, keep people employed, they'll hire people. But what we have learned, it's a wonderful theory based on human beings being good. The problem is what we've learned is that those with power and privilege really love to hold on to power and privilege. And so the part that doesn't get factored in to trickle down is, the people at the top really want to stay there. So they're not willing to concede or give up any of that. And so guess what? It doesn't trickle down. It just trickles laterally to their own families. And that's not all that helps.
Taina Brown: And so the whole nonprofit philanthropic sector is modeled after that. Like it still uses that premise as its operating structure and that inherently makes it problematic. When I did work at the church, I was barely making a living wage. Like I couldn't afford to live by myself. Like I had to have roommates. I couldn't afford to buy a car because I was carless at the time. I remember sitting down with the financial pastor, because there was a pastor for all these different areas of your life in the church. He was like, let's go over your budget and see what we can do, yada, yada, yada. I remember just gaslighting myself so much to the point where I was like, no, it'll be okay, it'll be okay. And it wasn't until like he, and this was a black man. And so he went over my budget with me. He was like, you need another job. You can't afford to work here. He literally told me that. And so, and I really appreciated that moment because I was like, wow, okay. I think until he said that point blank to my face, I hadn't realized how dire my situation was. And even then it took me years to leave. But even though we had that conversation and he understood my situation and could say without any sort of bias that I literally could not afford to work there, that still wasn't enough. There was no conversation about, why aren't we paying you?
Becky Mollenkamp: In fact, worse than that, think what I've noticed often, because I worked at a nonprofit and I know lots of people who have, is you're actually often guilted, like for wanting more, because you're supposed to be there doing good work. And that's like the work is the reward. And we're here doing all this important stuff and we're having to beg for money. So how can we possibly pay you more? And how could you, how dare you ask? And there's all this guilt that comes in. And by the way, think, and I would love, I need to look it up. Maybe I will in a second while you're talking, but I would imagine that nonprofit work is filled with more women than men at the worker level in the same way that a lot of care work is because it's a similar kind of, most of the care work, the heart-centered kind of work, education, healthcare, I would bet nonprofits are generally filled with women and people of color. And then because of that, I don't think there's any coincidence here, that work is then undervalued and underpaid and then turned back around on those people and they're gaslit into feeling bad for wanting more. It happens with educators, it happens with healthcare workers. supposed to be doing the work for the love of the work, for the love of the people, supposed to feel good. We don't do that same thing to people who are in banking, who are in finance, in typical male-dominated fields. They're not getting that, like, you should just be doing this because you care a lot about people's finances and how their money is based. No, it's like, of course they're supposed to be expected to want to make more, but people are doing, you know, this giving kind of work. So I just, what you're saying, yeah. And I think it's even worse. think that people are often made to feel shitty for wanting more, which is so bad when the CEO is making, you know, four, $8 million and you're how dare you ask to be making, you know, a living wage.
Taina Brown: I think one thing that a former client and I have talked about, we were, she started, and I think I talked about this before, but she started like a giving circle, a direct giving circle. I think it was like last year. And so we have conversations about like mutual aid and giving sometimes. And one of the things that she has been really good about and that I really admire is that she's really challenged herself to do direct giving as opposed to giving to an organization. And she does that because, one, it's challenging. It challenges our notion of just giving money away without any strings attached. That can be a really difficult thing for some of us to do. I mean, it's the whole like, don't give that homeless person money because they're just going to use it on drugs, right? Like, and it's like, who cares what they use it on? Like when you give something, you give it freely, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and I think even more, and this is where I guess, and because I love to get to that, like refocusing. OK, we've talked a lot about what's wrong, but let's talk about what to do, like what are our thoughts on how to function instead. And I think for me, again, a lot of it to me starts, at least for those of us with the most privilege, you know, as a white person, I want to be clear that I'm saying that specifically to the group of people that I represent here, which is I think we need to rethink how we are even thinking about giving. Right, because I think too much of it is still us thinking about giving versus redistributing wealth that we didn't necessarily earn. And yes, we work, we earn our money, whatever. But we also have to remember the amount of privilege that's at play. Right. And so the more privilege you have, the less you had to work to earn that money. Right. The less barriers you faced in receiving that money. And there are so many people who have far more barriers in trying to earn the same money. And so I look at that as, and this was an important shift for me that happened about five, seven years ago, where I stopped talking about my charitable giving and started talking about how I was redistributing wealth. Because I think it's really important for me to think of that internally, to stop thinking of it as mine to give, but instead thinking of it as money that I was given or that I had a lot of privilege in being able to receive that others don't share the same privilege. And so it's my responsibility then to redistribute some of that money in accordance with how much privilege I have. So I think the more privilege you have, the more you need to redistribute. The less privilege you have, maybe the less you redistribute because you faced more barriers. But I didn't face as many barriers. I grew up at a time when college was less expensive. I was able to pay off my student loans in a reasonable amount of time, I left college with like $15,000 in student loans, which by today's standards is nothing, right? Nothing for, I know, right?
Taina Brown: Yeah, that's nothing. Nothing, my God. That's not even like 10 % of what I owe. Becky Mollenkamp: Well, it's because I also went to a community college. made some smart choices, just to say. But I was able to pay for community college out of pocket between my work and some contribution from my parents. Now, I did pay for most of my college myself, but it was far less expensive. And I grew up lower middle class. I had two parents with degrees. I was able to get a degree myself. I was able to get an advanced degree that the company I worked for paid for. So again, another free degree basically, right? Like I was able to buy a home because I was also able to get help from family. And I was also able to benefit from my ex-husband being in the military and all of that brings for buying a home. Like there's just so many things along the way that if I can be really honest with myself were privileges that I didn't earn that allowed me, that made it easier for me to be able to make money, right? And to be able to not just make money, but have money. Right. Because it's one thing to earn money, but it's also another thing to say, I'm not having to spend my money on X, Y and Z that other people might have to. Right. And so I think it's just important for us. The more pull that you have to really get honest with yourself about about your financial picture and all of the factors at play and then start to think about I'm not giving my money. I'm redistributing wealth in a system that's really broken and then a system that I benefit more than others. And so I think to me, that's a real starting point, especially for the people with privilege again. The more privilege you have, the more I think we need to really re-examine how we're thinking about quote unquote charity or philanthropy and really start to interrogate that for yourself. Because it starts inside, right? Because if you see that homeless person and you think this is my money I'm giving to you, then of course it's like, I have expectations around how you should spend it. But if I instead look at it as, I have so many privileges that allowed me to not end up on the street and that you clearly didn't have, then this is money that I can say, this could be your money if not for those things, right? And let me say it is now your money. If it's your money, you can go buy cigarettes with it.
Taina Brown: You do what you want with it. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and it's a radical shift in how we think about giving that I think is really important.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that because it reframes this idea of ownership, right? And ownership is another facet of capitalism, right? This idea of just owning the land to build the cotton fields and the tobacco fields.
Becky Mollenkamp: Owning people. Because if I'm giving you money that homeless person and I'm expecting him to use it how I want him to use it, there is inherent inside of that some of that like ownership. Like I now own you because I have given you this money.
Taina Brown: I like the idea of just we don't own anything on this earth, even money. My house is on the mortgage. My name is on the mortgage of this house, but I don't own it. It is a resource that has come my way that I can use and redistribute how I choose.
Becky Mollenkamp: And it's on land that was stolen, right? So all of us have to confront that.
Taina Brown: And that's on land that was stolen anyway. Exactly, exactly. And that's kind of been my thinking as well recently for the past few years. It's like all this land is stolen anyway, so we don't own anything. We don't own anything. We are temporary caretakers of what it is that we have. And I remember reading a book that helped me reframe my idea around money too. I forgot what it's called. I'll have to look it up and then we can put it in the show notes. the author, talks about money as like energy, right? Like when you work for your money, you're giving your energy and you're getting it back with some type of compensation. And so this idea of like how you, for her reframe or her framing was like, how do you spend your time outside of work. How do you spend your money? You really should be thinking about where you want to put your energy. Do you want to put your energy into impulsive shopping? Or do you want to put your energy into saving and things like that? Do you want to put your energy into complaining about work all the time at home? Because then it's like you're giving that energy to your job, but you're not getting paid for that time, right? So it lessens the value of the money that you're making. But all that to say, that helped me to just kind of shift my idea about the exchange that I make when I give. And so whether it's an actual gift that I bought for someone or it's money that I'm giving someone, I like to think about it as energy that I'm putting out. And I know that that energy will eventually make its way back to me because everything is cyclical. And I, this is one of the reasons why I love, I started reading the service Barry. have you read it yet?
Becky Mollenkamp: No, I was wondering if you were gonna bring it up. I just had a feeling it might come up, because I knew you were reading it and I feel like I don't know yet what's in it. I can't wait to read it, but I just wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with some of this.
Taina Brown: If you've read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmer, she has a chapter on there on reciprocity, the gift of reciprocity. And so this book, The Service Berry, which is her latest book to come out, it's a really small book. I haven't finished it yet, but I'm about halfway through. But it expands on that concept of gift giving and reciprocity and just like, caring for your community and just viewing things as just like this exchange, this constant energetic exchange that's happening between community members. And so it's a really localized small way to think about quote unquote giving. And I'm just at the point in the book where she starts to talk about like, what does it look like to scale that up? But yeah, I think that's a resource for people who are looking to reframe the way that they think about giving, the way that they think about ownership and wealth redistribution is to read Braiding's Request, to read the Serviceberry, to just think about this is, you know, we don't own anything. We just, don't own anything. And so if I don't own anything, then it's not mine to keep.
Becky Mollenkamp: It's not about giving and receiving. That's why I like this, that you were talking about sort of flowing and cyclical. And I think that's where redistribution, the wealth redistribution idea sits so well with me because redistribution just means it's moving, right? It's this movement of money to say, like, I have more than enough. You don't. We're just going to redistribute where it lies. And to me, it's really grounded in like a socialist principle. And that's really how I'm wired. Now, I haven't always been, I was more of a Democrat in my thinking, but as I have unpacked so much of this work for myself, like that has really helped me to see that to be truly progressive is not to be a Democrat or to be anything inside of this existing system. for me, it really looks more like democratic socialism. And I think there are a lot of really progressive white folks who think they're really progressive and yet when it comes to this area, it's a place where they still have so much of this like other programming wrapped up in their thoughts around charity. And so I'm just hoping this hopes to crack open for some people some exploration around how this system of charitable giving like we, I think we hold it up as if it is like this infallible system, right? Like, these are people doing such good work in the world or whatever. And that can be true. And the system's also broken. It's as broken as any of our systems are broken. It's a really broken system because it's created to mirror all of our other systems. And that's a real problem. So I think we need to explore that, but then also explore our own role inside of it. Because where is that stuff still showing up for us? Are we still looking at it as our money, as ours to give, as ours to then lord over someone or to watch how they use or make, you know, demands around that because I think most of us are. So then when I start to think about what could be different, one of the things I think about is, I know you mentioned earlier giving as in a one-to-one and it's still being a problem, but I think it was as you were talking, it's more about this framing of it. So for me, what I liked when I have finally shifted out of the giving and into this like redistribution mindset, I really do like the idea of looking more one-to-one. What does it look like for me to redistribute money on a one-to-one level instead of at an organizational level? Meaning there are times when I will see people on social media who will put out a Venmo or whatever and just say like, I'm trying to finance my gender affirming care or I'm in an abusive relationship and I need to get out or, you know, I'm a black woman living in my car because I can't get a job right now. Whatever those things are that I see, I will throw money to their Venmo, right? Like what can I throw to them right now? What can I give? How can I redistribute some of this money into that space? At that one-on-one level, not for a tax write-off, not for any other reason than because that's a person who's in need and who's had an ask. It's brave to ask for help. And if I have extra, then let me put that extra there. And then what happens to it after that? I don't know. And could some of those people be lying to me? Does that matter? It was not really my money anyway. As you're saying, like, it's not my land. It's not really my money. And so it's okay wherever it goes. I feel like it's that flowing of it will go where it needs to go and then it will continue to move. And it's less about me having to have other people meet some criteria that I've determined for them and more about saying, I have extra, you don't, here's some extra, right? And it's not about me then just saying anything about how it gets spent. So I don't know, for me, it's like, a lot of it is this like, one-to-one giving is feeling more and more right for me and where I have been putting more of my extra money versus where in the past it would be like, I'm gonna write a check to this organization or that organization. I still do some of that. I try to pick local organizations. Like I raised money for trans justice, which is here in Missouri. They help trans folks who are needing emergency housing because they're having to escape either bad laws or because they're trying to get gender affirming care in another state because they can't in theirs. And I think that work is really great and it's very grassroots. They've only got like two people on staff. The money really is going where it's going. Like, so I think there are things like that that are still where I will put money, but more and more I've been leaning towards this one-on-one redistribution. So I don't know what your thoughts are to end things here on like how you see the path forward.
Taina Brown: I think the one to one redistribution and like giving within like your community. And so when I was working at the nonprofit in Atlanta a few years ago, there was another nonprofit founder who had a model that I really liked. It's called Circle of Joy Giving. And basically what she would do is in different in different communities who had specific needs, she would create a giving circle for that community. And then the community really informed how much money they needed. And then they were free to use it as much as they wanted. Or they were free to use it however they wanted. And so it became less of a top-down thing and more of a lateral thing. And so I just remember working with her for a little bit just being like, OK, this is a good way to do nonprofit giving. This is a good way to do philanthropy, right? I think for me, this idea of just not owning anything. And I want to say really quickly, too, because you mentioned that white people have had less barriers to earning what they earn. And that is true. And I think for people of color and for Black people, sometimes within our communities, there's this sense of, well, it's been so hard. There have been so many barriers that what I make is mine, and I don't want to let go of it. And so I've had some of those conversations with people in my own communities where it's like where they vote Republican because they want to hold onto their money. They want to hold onto their financial wealth.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, well, we saw that with this last election.
Taina Brown: So it's not something that only exists in the white community. It definitely exists in the white community in a disparate amount. But it does exist in people of color and Black communities. And I think that we lose the sense of being able to take care of our people take care of each other when we're so focused on only taking care of ourselves. And with my giving, I like to do one-on-one. I'm the same as you. If I see something on social media or if someone that I know posts something or says, hey, this one person, something, I'm quick to send some money over if I have it. And I remember the first time I started, when I first started doing that, like it was through social media, it through Instagram. And then like two days later, someone was like, you shouldn't send money to that person because they have, like there's a pattern of them abusing people who give, not abusing, like physically abusing, but abusing the system of this type of redistribution of money. And at first I was just like, damn, I fell for it. I fell for the scam. And then after a few minutes, I was like, you know what? It doesn't matter. Because this is a practice for me to become more comfortable, to just feel like I can redistribute my money this way. I feel like I can take care of people this way. And so once it's out of my hands, it is out of my hands. And I have done my part to help support the community that I'm a part of.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and if you gave that money to the American Heart Association, no one would say anything and their CEO is making $4 million. Right. So like, we're really quick to cast judgment on the individual standing on the street corner with a sign or posting on social media about some urgent need where they're asking for 20 bucks or maybe a few hundred bucks. But we don't. But I hear very little of that same argument being made at the systemic level of these CEOs that are pulling $4 million. Right. What a shocker. And the other thing I just wanted to mention to you is just quickly because I think abundance versus scarcity thinking is at play here. And like, it's easy to say, it's easier for white people to have an abundance mindset. And there's a part of me that thinks that, but then I also think the opposite can be true because I honestly think in our systems, we are all created with to really have a scarcity mindset because that's what keeps us in this competitive state of what's mine is mine and there's not enough to go around. So I got to hold on to everything I've got, which is what we see with these CEOs who are actually as a percentage of their money giving so very little. They may be giving the most as a total, but as a percentage of what they own, like it's so little, right? And so I think we are all just. conditioned into scarcity thinking. so for me, like re-examining how I'm looking at this, thinking of it as wealth redistribution, this idea of owning nothing, it really helps me to free up a bit to start to unhook some of that scarcity thinking and develop more abundance thinking, which can be really hard because the, you know, the greater, the less privilege you have, you know, and I don't have, like, I have a lot of privilege being a white-bodied person. I also am not like, rich by any standard, in fact, far from it. My husband's an educator and my business does not make a ton of money. And so, like I could easily say we don't have enough to redistribute any, but really thinking about that of like, it all goes around, it's not all mine, it's not meant to be mine. Like it helps me start to get into this more abundant way of thinking. And I really think abundant thinking, and I don't mean it in this like manifesting mindset-y bullshit that we see from white coach ladies. But I'm just saying, like, I think getting into an abundant way of thinking, this way of thinking is more like, none of us has anything, right? None of us is guaranteed to anything, owed anything. None of us really owns anything. All of it is sort of rooted in the stolen premise anyway. Like that to me helps really get me into a more abundant thinking. And I think that is really liberatory. I think abundance thinking in that way, not at an individual level, right? I think that's where we usually see that abundant mindset stuff come up is when people are trying to say, how can you get more for yourself? And that's not what it is for me. It's more about how can we all have more. And that is so liberating.
Taina Brown: You have everything you need in your community. Right? You don't have everything you need on your own, but you have everything you need in your community. And so if you got laid off, if you couldn't afford groceries one week, if you got sick, if you got into a car accident, right? Think of worse disasters. And if you have a solid community, you have everything that you need. And so that's why it's so important to invest in the spirit of reciprocity within your community, because those are the people that are going to hold you down. And you find that by being the person to hold somebody else down. And that can start through throwing, not throwing, but contributing to someone's Venmo, Giving of your resources, whether that's money, whether that's time and energy, whether it's a place to stay, whether it's a car ride, all of those things. It's not just about giving money. It's not just about using your money. It's about using the resources that you have at your disposal to create that spirit of reciprocity within your community.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that. That's the wealth redistribution, but thinking about all of the wealth that you have, because you're right, it's not just about money, it is about so many other things. But again, that's where that that community, that collective experience, I think, again, for me, why wealthy redistribution sits so well, because it's like, I'm redistributing, and eventually then it probably comes back around, right? And if I need it, it'll be there. If I'm willing to put it out, then I am able to better hold on to the belief that it will also come to me because that's what that abundance thinking is, right? Because the scarcity thinking, if you're not, it gets tied up and like, if I'm not willing to put any money out or any time out, any energy out, any help, then of course no one's gonna help me, right? And so then of course you hold on even tighter, but then that just keeps reaffirming the belief for you that it is scarce and that there won't be those resources when you need them. The more that you learn to be able to give, to give, to give, to give, to give, to release, I don't even wanna say give, to release, to redistribute, to allow it to flow, the more than you will start to have that belief for yourself that, if I can do it, others can do it, and it will be there when I need it as well. So just think that's really valuable. Thank you. This was like really a lovely holiday-ish conversation. So as people are thinking about their holiday giving, redistribution, just, I don't know, I just wanna invite people to explore those thoughts a little bit about how you're viewing extra right and how you're thinking about where it's going in the giving and maybe like I love the idea of an exercise of just challenging yourself To hand the next person you see who's got a sign out on the street asking for money hand them whatever you have without any Like expectation and as the thoughts come up because they will and it's okay that they do like we're conditioned this way It's alright But as the thoughts come up saying things like I bet he's just gonna go buy this or probably doesn't need that or the whole thing's scam keep challenging yourself to say it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, right? To release all of that. See if you can start to challenge this stuff in that way. So I love it. Thanks, Taina.
Taina Brown: Thank you.