The Forgotten Birthplace of American Independence

When Americans think about the founding of the United States, most minds immediately go to Boston, Philadelphia, Lexington, and Concord. But what if one of the most important chapters of the American Revolution happened right here in North Carolina?

In this episode of Tales of American Spirit, host Liz Morris welcomes Kelly Arnold from the Alliance for Historic Hillsborough to explore the remarkable role Hillsborough played in the movement toward American independence. Together they uncover the story of the Third Provincial Congress, the Regulator Movement, and the pivotal decisions made in Hillsborough during the summer of 1775 that helped lay the groundwork for a new nation. 

From corrupt colonial officials and frustrated frontier farmers to revolutionary leaders, military preparations, and the earliest steps toward self-government, this conversation reveals why Hillsborough deserves a much larger place in America's founding story.

00:00 – Introduction to Freedom & Glory
01:00 – Why Hillsborough's story matters during America's 250th anniversary
02:00 – What Hillsborough looked like in the 1770s
04:00 – Why Hillsborough became a center of colonial power
08:00 – Life in colonial North Carolina
09:00 – What was happening across the American colonies?
11:00 – How news traveled before modern communication
13:00 – Who were the Regulators?
15:00 – Taxes, corruption, and colonial frustration
17:00 – Why the Regulators were more complicated than history suggests
20:00 – Loyalists, revolutionaries, and competing visions for America
24:00 – What was the Third Provincial Congress?
25:00 – Why Hillsborough was chosen for the meeting
27:00 – The first real steps toward independence
29:00 – Military districts, currency, and preparing for self-government
32:00 – The influential leaders gathered in Hillsborough
36:00 – The Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge
38:00 – How North Carolina moved toward independence
40:00 – Why Hillsborough's role is often overlooked
42:00 – Exploring Historic Hillsborough today
43:00 – Outlandish Hillsborough Scottish Festival and Outlander connections
45:00 – Flags of Change: The Society of the Cincinnati
47:00 – George Washington, Cincinnatus, and revolutionary ideals
50:00 – The Society's mission and legacy today
54:00 – Final thoughts and closing

Creators and Guests

Host

Bill LuMaye

Former talk show host at WPTF680 in Raleigh, N.C.

Host

Liz Morris

Chief Executive Officer at Carrot-Top Industries, Inc.

Guest

Kelly Arnold

Program & Events Coordinator for Alliance for Historic Hillsborough

What is Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit?

Welcome to Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit—a podcast celebrating the heart of American craftsmanship, resilience, self-reliance, and the power of disruption. Through inspiring stories and authentic storytelling, we shine a spotlight on individuals and communities who embody these values, proving that small, determined efforts can spark meaningful change.

Join us as we share personal tales of triumph, innovation, and hope—moments that define the American spirit and shape our nation’s identity. Whether you’re seeking motivation to pursue your dreams or a reminder of the power of community, Freedom and Glory offers a powerful dose of inspiration rooted in resilience and determination.

Listen, be inspired, and take action.

20 - Freedom and Glory
===

Liz Morris: [00:00:00] Welcome to Tales of American Spirit. I'm Liz Morris, and if you've been with us for a while, you know what the show's about. It's based on the analogy of a drop of dye in a bucket of water, where we go looking for people whose small actions created a lasting change. So I'm really excited for today's episode.

It's a little different. We've got Kelly Arnold here, and, um, America turns 250 years this year. And, um, I think we're gonna hear a story [00:01:00] told 100 different ways, mostly focused on Boston and Philadelphia. And so we wanted to do something a little different, where we tell the story right from where we sit.

So Freedom and Glory is based in Hillsborough, North Carolina, and, um, some of the earliest steps towards independence happened a few minutes from our door. So like I said, we've got Kelly here. Thank you so much for joining us. Kelly's from the, um, Alliance for Historic Hillsborough, and we're gonna talk about a month in 1775 when the small town quietly went about building a country.

Kelly Arnold: Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I'm super excited to be here. I'm the programs and events coordinator with the Alliance for Historic Hillsborough. So the biggest thing that we do is, um, help run the visitor center. So I get the absolute honor of sort of being the first point of contact for a lot of folks that are making their way into town for the first time, and are sort of trying to understand what this town is about.

We have a lot of signs on the highway that say [00:02:00] Historic Hillsborough. Sometimes folks come in sort of looking for, like, an old Salem-type experience, where you get to go into all the houses, and people are sort of dressed up in costume. Um, which would be super fun- ... but is not generally what Hillsborough, um, has.

But we do have a lot of history, and, um, the visitor center's since literally steps away from the regulator marker and from the plot of land where the Third Provincial Congress, which we're gonna be talking about is. So we're in a really unique position to be able to kinda be that first touchstone for a lot of folks.

Liz Morris: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That would be amazing if you all dressed up.

Kelly Arnold: It would be- I'd love

Liz Morris: a- It would be. I'd love a-

Bill: It would be ... a theme party.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. It would. It would be a lot of fun. We do sometimes. I mean, it depends. It's like our Revolutionary War Living History Day. Every once in a while you'll catch us in it.

I think our, for the Fourth of July, like, the town is doing a big celebration, and, um, I've heard that our weekend staff member is gonna dress up for it. So- Ooh ... I don't know. You'll have to [00:03:00] hold her to that.

Liz Morris: Yeah.

Bill: But- Hey, that's a cliffhanger. Exactly.

Kelly Arnold: I know, yeah. For

Bill: the next podcast.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Liz Morris: Well, so just we're gonna go back in time.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so will you talk to us about what Hillsborough was like in the 1770s?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. Um, so we have a, a map. We're kind of unique in being a town that has a map from 1780 1768, um, it's called the Sauthier Map that- Really shows exactly how the town was laid out. What I think is really interesting about it, a lot of the streets are laid out exactly the same way that you see on the map, um, during that day.

So some of the main, um, buildings that are marked, you know, the church the courthouse, the jail, um, and the marketplace, those are things that all towns would have had. Um, but I think what's really unique about Hillsboro is that in our downtown area, um, a lot of those places are still in the exact same spots.

Um, so Hillsboro was a small town at the time, though. There's only a few different houses that are actually shown on it, and a few [00:04:00] shops and things like that. Um, people were required to build mansion houses, which sound really big and stately, but they really had to be, like, two rooms and either made out of wood or brick, um, just so they were a little bit more substantial.

Um, but all of those would've really been m- mainly based off of King and Churton Streets, which were the main streets at the time and sort of still are today.

Liz Morris: Sure.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. The biggest thing is that we were right next to the Eno River. Um, the reason that we were there is 'cause it was the safest place to ford the river, so the easiest path to get across for travel.

Um, previously, there had been, like, an Occaneechi settlement there, which was the local indigenous folks who lived in the area. Um, they had also sort of set up along this area. And we were along the Great Trading Path, which was the main road that read, that led through town, um, and sort of forded the river at that spot.

So that's sort of where Hillsbor- why Hillsboro was sort of nestled where it was at the time.

Bill: You know, for me, one of the things, I'll, I'll be honest, it's a little embarrassing. I, I flunked history my first time [00:05:00] through. I had to take it again. I wasn't a big fan. Yeah. But I grew to love it, and coming from Green Bay, Wisconsin, and when the family come to visit, they say the same thing, "There's so much history here."

Yeah. "I can't believe, you know, the Civil War happened." Yeah. "I can't believe the background." But then to find out Hillsborough and, um, and what a predominant role it, it, it made- Yeah,

Kelly Arnold: absolutely ...

Bill: in who we are today is phenomenal. Do, do you mind? Can you, how did Hillsborough get in that position? How is

Kelly Arnold: that possible?

Yeah. So, um, in 1754 it was laid out. Um, and really shortly after that you start to sort of have folks who are from the British colonial government. So at the time they would've been sort of officers of the Crown. Um, they are sort of tasked with coming out and settling, um, in Hillsborough. It was sort of the western seat of the British colonial power of, at the time.

Um, so why Hillsborough as opposed [00:06:00] to, you know, Salisbury just down the road I really think is 'cause of that, that connection to the river and the, along the trading path. Um, but sort of as Hillsborough's growing up, it's always intended to be this sort of close connection to, to the British power of the, the time period.

Um, so you get a lot of officials who start settling in towns who have kind of the capital and the means to create these bigger houses, who are sort of the people who are gonna be able to and have interest in, you know, shopping in these general stores and things like that that are springing up in town, um, and who are doing business in places like the courthouse and the jail, um, and the marketplace, because those are sort of the official centers of power.

So it sort of starts to become a magnet for folks who are involved in the government in the way that most folks who are, you know, as far from the coast, which is traditionally where our centers of power are. That's why you get your Bostons that are, like, right on the harbor. Um, traditionally folks who are settled a little bit further away, um, they would be very disconnected from sort of the goings-on of, like, the king [00:07:00] and, um, the people that he's involved in.

So Hillsborough starts to, to draw people in that want to be involved in that.

Bill: Can I, can I just follow up? Yeah. What kind of people lived there at that time? Were they- You said there was a close connection to obviously the king.

Kelly Arnold: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But what kind of people were they? Yeah. They sound very independent on the, on the other hand.

Yeah. You

Kelly Arnold: have to be, right? Some for sure. Um, I think in the town, it's interesting, there's kind of a distinction between the folks who are living in the actual physical town of Hillsborough, which probably would've been, um, designated as a pretty small section. So a lot of those folks would've been lawyers, would've been judges.

Um, Edmund Fanning is, like, one of the ones. He's the clerk of courts. He is sort of a well-known figure in town. You also have folks like, um, Francis Nash, who goes on to sort of become a general in the American Revolution. Um, these are the folks that are kind of seen living in town especially. Um, al- also merchants and things like that, that are sort of running these shops.

Um, and then of course their families and the [00:08:00] people that they, um, have serving them, whether they were enslaved or sort of indentured and bonded. Um, that would've been, made up the core of town. But sort of just outside of Hillsborough, um, you do have some large homes, like Moore Fields, that are sort of springing up as these large country estates.

But for the most part, outside of that, you have sort of these subsistence farmers that are just kind of living off the land in the vast space that was Orange County at the time. Hillsborough was that county seat for all of Orange County. Um, but it stretched all the way out to Guilford, to Greensboro, where Greensboro is today.

So a lot smaller than what we s- normally think of as, um, sort of Orange County today, which is just Chapel Hill and Hillsborough and Carrboro, basically. Um- Yeah. So that was kinda, that was kinda the difference between in town and out of town, I guess.

Liz Morris: I love when you said that it was the furthest west.

Yeah. That's just so wild to think about. Yeah.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, there was definitely other settlements. I mean, obvi- Old Salem, that's one of those ones people [00:09:00] really know about, but they're a German settlement. Mm-hmm. Um, they're not really dealing with any of the sort of minutiae of the day-to-day running of the colony of North Carolina underneath the British government.

So that's where it's like, yeah, there were further west towns. Like, I don't wanna say that there were... That Hillsborough was sort of the last outpost. Yeah. But it was in terms of, like, where people were actually going to be able to do things like pay their taxes- Mm-hmm ... or have their court cases heard or- Yeah

those kinds of things. You would have to travel into Hillsborough for that, even if you were living out in the mountains. So- Well- ... becomes a pretty important spot.

Liz Morris: Well- What was happening in the rest of the colonies, like big picture?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. So, um, I mean, as we're coming up on sort of Hillsborough playing this major role, um, you have other things that are starting to go on, some unrest that's happening.

The Boston Massacre is a big one that I feel like we all know about. I feel like sometimes people don't realize how early it was. Um, it actually happened in March of 1770, which is about six years before the Declaration of Independence itself [00:10:00] is signed. Um, and of course, the Declaration of Independence is just sort of a, a starting point or one of the stepping stones.

So it, it's certainly important to celebrate it as a 250th anniversary, but our Constitution doesn't end up getting signed until, you know, the 1780s. Um, so the Boston Massacre being that first big one. The Boston Tea Party happens three years later, and then actually before anything even really kicked off in Hillsborough, you have Lexington and Concord, which is the first sort of shots of the Civil War fired in April of 1775, and that really sets the stage for, okay, what is this tension that's kind of coming up in Hillsborough?

There's... It's not just North Carolina. It's not, um... North Carolina isn't necessarily the hotbed of any kind of dissension, but it's also not necessarily sort of the, um The absence of it or anything like that. It's also not just sort of, um, existing without any conflict, so yeah.

Bill: How did news travel? I mean, [00:11:00] I know what it's like today, right?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah,

Bill: yeah. And I, I don't know who you trust or what's real and what's not. Now, go back-

Kelly Arnold: Yeah ...

Bill: to the 1700s. I mean, I mean, there's a lot of emotion- Yeah, absolutely ... in what's to come, and you're gonna talk about that.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: I mean, how did they get that information?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, a lot of it was centered on newspapers.

Um, so you had different newspapers that were circling around. A lot of times that was, um, sort of major newspapers were settled in, again, those port areas. So you'd have some in, um, Boston. You'd have them over in, um, on the coast in New Bern and Wilmington, places like that. Basically, places where people are coalescing and doing trade.

Then those would've sort of made their way, um, into places like Hillsborough, sort of at a snail's pace. I mean, it really is as fast as a carriage can travel or maybe if you're lucky, one person on horseback. Hillsborough being as sort of central to the government system as it was, they may have gotten a little bit of faster news than, you know, somewhere like, um, [00:12:00] like outposts of South Carolina or even as far as Tennessee, just because there would've been a little bit of priority in getting them updated news to be able to, um, make their case.

But really, I mean, things kind of traveled. It could take you months to learn about something that's happening up in Boston. Right. Um, local news is definitely what kind of rules the day, and word of mouth. I mean, again, these small subsistence farmers, some of them would've been able to do small sums, small figures, enough to keep their books and sort of keep their accounts.

But most of them wouldn't have been able to sort of sit down and read an actual newspaper. And it sort of becomes, um... I know we'll talk a little bit about the Regulators. Um, literacy and, like, control of the media sort of becomes a major player in it, because the colonial officials, um, who are very much against the Regulators are the ones who have control of the newspapers and who have- Oh

control of, like, the accounts. There's almost nothing that we have written in the Regulators' own words that survives even today to sort of offer a counterpoint. So kind of a fascinating, [00:13:00] um, with the folks who are, work at the Alamance Battleground State Historic Site, they have a lot of trouble with the fact that we really only have kind of a one-sided narrative, because that's all the news was sharing at the time.

Liz Morris: Well, let's, let's talk about the Regulators. Yeah. Who, who were they and what, you know, what were they focused on?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. So the Regulators were sort of, um, mostly the small subsistence farmers living outside of the town of Hillsborough. You wouldn't have really found a Regulator in town except for when they were kind of coming in to pay their taxes or as the Regulator movement, the Regulator Rebellion, um, it's kind of known by a couple different names depending on what side of the aisle you're sitting on at the time.

Um, they are coming into Hillsborough to also just sort of cr- protest corrupt officials who are often living in Hillsborough themselves. So a lot of the folks who, um, are Regulators, they're meeting up in what is today Alamance County, but would have [00:14:00] been Orange County at the time. So the Cane Creek Assembly, which is a Quaker society, um, in Snow Camp, um, which is over in Alamance, that was kind of a main meeting place for folks to sort of gather and chat with one another about what was going on.

But again, Hillsborough's the spot that they come to, um, whenever they are sort of needing things government wise. So the big issue that the Regulators are having at the time is that they're being, um, told to pay their taxes, which was not quite so simple at the time. Um, a lot of the sort of back country or farther west, um, operated on sort of a barter subsistence economy.

So I might come to you and say, "Hey, I need a bag of flour. Can I trade you these 10 eggs?" But you can't exactly come into Hillsborough and say, "Well, I'm gonna give the king these 10 eggs to pay for my taxes" at the time. That's where you get things like cash crops, like tobacco and cotton. There were actually warehouses that had set schedules of how you could [00:15:00] transfer those items to each other or for actual cash, so pounds, shillings, that you could then use to go and pay your taxes.

But the closest of those warehouses that were regulated by the government were all the way out in I think the closest one would be in sort of Johnston County today. Wow. So quite a ways away from where a lot of these pla- people are living and working. So instead, you, that responsibility to transfer things over to get actual physical cash into the hands of the people to pay their taxes sort of falls onto the officials, most of whom were living in Hillsborough at the time.

As you can imagine, being kind of far away from the coast, that sort of opens up opportunities to, Bake. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Well,

Kelly Arnold: she's thinking for a nice way to say it. She's trying to, yeah, she's- ... she just thinks I'm trying to, like, make this sound nice. Um, kind of g- kind of gives you the opportunity to stick your hands in the pot a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Um, Edmund Fanning, who I mentioned before, he's sort of known as, like, the right hand of Tryon. He is, like, particularly well-known for this, um, of sort of either shorting people [00:16:00] on their taxes or, once they come to town and they're not able to pay their taxes, taking over their land, their homes, um, their livestock, um, and sort of seizing them as a form of payment.

Fanning himself owns, like, seven different lots in prime downtown Hillsborough. Mm. Is, like, building all of these houses. Very similar to Governor Tryon, who's being protested at the time for building Tryon's Palace, seen as this symbol of government excess, of, like, taxing, um-

Bill: Even back then.

Kelly Arnold: Even back then, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Seen as sort of just- Some things

Liz Morris: never change.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. This giant building- Wow ... of, like, just sort of a symbol. So, um, again, as they're coming into Hillsborough, you have folks like Fanning, and they're coming to the court systems to sort of try to be heard and have these sort of losses and this corruption addressed.

Bill: See, I, I thought of the Regulators, I was thinking, oh, dark, evil music. I thought they were bad people just based on the name, but-

Kelly Arnold: Yeah ...

Bill: I mean, I bet there's a lot of people today that could absolutely identify with those [00:17:00] folks. Yeah. They had legit reasons.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, I think so. It's, it's a kind of interesting, um, you, when you look at the Regulators and sort of what they're asking for, it's actually much more akin to sort of what we think of the ideals of, like, the American Revolution.

You're- Yeah ... they're sort of asking for just being left alone on their land, to be able to be felt- dealt fairly with the government, for transparency in government, um, things, which I think is kind of things that we all want. Yes. Um, and sort of expect. But, um, I think it's kind of fascinating 'cause the folks who are sort of anti-Regulator, who are the ones that are living in town, they're really the ones that become the revolutionaries later on in Hillsborough, which I think is kind of a flip from a narrative that we would normally expect.

Yeah, it sure is. Francis Nash himself, who I talked about, was, he later becomes this big fighter in the American Revolution. He literally was at Tryon's side as he's going against the Regulators, um, and the Battle of Alamance. So he is incredibly anti-Regulator, which is, again, not the typical narrative that you would expect, um, for this sort of pre-Revolution [00:18:00] activity.

Liz Morris: , Do you think it inspired them in some way to, to, to think about change or to think about- Yeah ... the power they had?

Kelly Arnold: I think it definitely, I think it had to have made them think about the power that they had, and I think it w- definitely m- it had to have been in the back of their minds sort of, especially as we, like, m- ke- continue moving in the story, and we're looking at, okay, so what does independence look like?

What is setting up a sort of, you know, fair government that is addressing all people? Um, how do we do that? But I think at the same time, a lot of revolutionary leaders where it's maybe not as much of a revolution as we think, they're still really invested in not necessarily turning over the, the power of the vote to all people.

They very much restrict themselves- Mm-hmm ... to you have to be male, that's first and foremost, but also that, you know, you have to own some form of land. If you're a renter, um, you don't get a vote in this day and age. Um, and more than that, to be able to be in a seat [00:19:00] of power, um, you have to have 100 acres of land, which is a fairly significant amount even back then, um, in order to, you know, be a person who is eligible to be a part of the state government or to be a senator.

Um, so I do think that there's a level to which they are thinking about, a few years later, they're thinking about these people, thinking about their needs, thinking about how do we address them. But at the same time, even, you know, six years down the line, they're not necessarily wanting to give people like the Regulators a ton of political power or a ton of political say.

Bill: Things have not changed that much. Again, yeah. I'm sorry. It, it sounds like, it sounds like they're doing it more out of selfishness for themselves, protecting their own power base, and at some point they must realize that, well, you, you're gonna have to appease if you can't defeat. Yeah. Is that kinda what you're saying?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. I mean, that's kinda the way that it, um-

Bill: Wow.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, they, I mean, again, it's, it's, you have to have compromises that are way- But they

Bill: were on board with [00:20:00] breaking away from Britain.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. Yes.

Bill: That's what blows me away.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. And so the Regulators themselves, it's really interesting, a lot of them are not revolutionaries.

They're actually very much Loyalists on the side of Great Britain because they sort of want this, um, higher manager or this higher-up that they can go to because that's sort of what happens with the Regulator movement eventually. They initially try to protest in these small courts. Hillsborough's the site of a riot in 1770, and then hangings of Regulators in 17, um, 71.

But, um- the ultimate goal was to sort of get King George himself or the House of Burgesses in England. It was to get them to pay attention to the things that were happening and to sort of give the colonial officials a slap on the wrist. Um, so the, you know, the hierarchy of power would be the local officials, um, Governor Tryon himself, who clearly also is not on the side of the Regulators- Right

House of Burgesses, and then up to King George, it's really fascinating with the Regulator movement that Samuel Johnston, who sort of becomes the president of this Congress that's held in Hillsborough later on, [00:21:00] he actually is the one to author what's called the Johnston Riot Act at the time, which It retroactively criminalizes anyone who participated in the Hillsborough riot.

So folks who were, those Regulators who were coming in asking for their cases to be heard, they weren't doing anything illegal. But Johnston, who becomes a revolutionary leader later on, um, literally says, "We need to make sure that this was criminalized and that we can go back and prosecute these people."

Not even giving people a chance to decide whether they're gonna participate in illegal activity or not. You're sort of telling them that they were a criminal. Mm-hmm. Um, that law that he actually puts into place and is passed through, um, the North Carolina assembly at the time actually ends up going all the way to King George III, and he overturns it himself, saying that it was not in line with the type of rule and was not respectful of, um, the rights that colonists have.

So again, you have kinda this fascinating interplay of, like, Regulators don't necessarily trust the people who become these revolutionaries and who sort of want [00:22:00] to run their own government, um, because they're worried about, um, not having somebody else to go to.

Bill: Wouldn't you? I mean-

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: You can see where they would become-

Liz Morris: Well, they're focused on, or it sounds like they're focused on farming and do, you know- Yeah

they're trying to make their- Yeah ... their money or

Bill: whatever. They just want a fair shot. Yeah. Um. Yeah.

Kelly Arnold: Well, and they don't necessarily ... I think what they really want is just to be able to either have somebody that they can trust that's in office, or to be able to have, you know, that choice for themselves.

But at the time, this idea of democracy and of every man having a vote, and a lot of the Regulators, I mean, before it was seized for taxes, they do own land. They do have, um, some sort of property, and therefore would've been able to vote at least for the state-level assemblies when the Constitution is put into place.

But democracy, I mean, it was a brand-new experiment. That was sort of unthinkable at the time. So they're thinking, "Well, we're not trading, you know, um, we're not trading this kingship that has power over us and is deciding things for us [00:23:00] for something where we can decide ourselves." What they're thinking at the time is that we're trading one king for another, and we know how this closer ki- quote, unquote- Yes

king would act. So- Mm-hmm ... um, I think that that's more along the lines of how they would be sort of looking at it, not even sort of daring to dream that they would be able to have any sort of political power, because that's not the world that they had come from.

Bill: Well, I'm going, I don't know if I'd be a regulator or one of the other guys.

I mean, I, I'm becoming very sympathetic to the regulators. Well,

Liz Morris: okay. Well, we're gonna, obviously we'll all dress up- Yeah ... and, um- Oh ... we'll see who you are.

Bill: I've always wanted to wear a wig, and now more so than ever. So I might go with the other guys. Yeah. I don't know.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: But I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Well, well- But I mean, I, I did not know that perspective until now. Yeah. Um-

Kelly Arnold: It's really interesting ... fascinating, really is. Yeah. It's a much more complicated history, I think, than people-

Bill: Yes ...

Kelly Arnold: necessarily realize. Mm-hmm. Um-

Liz Morris: Well, and I think change, it just [00:24:00] seems like change, it's obvious when you think about it now with social media and everything.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. The speed of change, and then kinda when you pull that back- Mm-hmm ... the speed of change and revolution, and kind of-

Kelly Arnold: Yeah ...

Liz Morris: coming up with the idea, I think- A long time- Yeah, yeah ... to come together and, um, well, well, let's talk about the Third Provincial Congress- Yeah, absolutely ... 'cause I think that was a, um, what is it and, you know, why did it meet in Hillsborough?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. So the Third Provincial Congress was a meeting that took place in August of 1775, August 20th to about September 10th. Um, it happens in the church in Hillsborough, which would've been the public meeting space. It was an Anglican church which was the Church of England, so they're actually maintained by state taxes at the time, and therefore able to be used for sort of these public purposes.

Um, it's a collection of folks, 213 delegates from all 35 counties at the time, um, who sort of come together and are beginning to take their real first steps [00:25:00] towards independence. It's the Third Provincial Congress, 'cause there were two beforehand. Um, but those ones were just a little bit more, we were really following Virginia and saying like, we you know, we affirm that we want to be a part of Great Britain, but, you know, what you're doing up in Boston is not okay.

And then when Great Britain continues to occupy Boston and continues to kinda do these things, um, saying instead, you know, "Oh, well, we're gonna start boycotting things like paper and stamps and things like that." The Third Provincial Congress, when they come to Hillsborough, is really the moment that they start to really, really take those steps towards independence, which is important.

Um, so you have six military districts that are established the provincial congresses were established a- after May of 1775 when Josiah Martin, who was the colonial governor that followed Governor Tryon, um, he has fled the colony by May of 1775. Hmm. He is in fear of his life.

He has abandoned Tryon Palace. He is theoretically, he claims ruling from, like, the Albemarle Sound, but you can [00:26:00] imagine that that's not the most- He's remote ... effective form of- He's remote. He's the

Liz Morris: first

Kelly Arnold: working from home. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly, yeah. But, you know, he didn't have Zoom at the time. Yeah.

So the Provincial Congress is sort of what steps in as, um, the leaders over the colony in, um, Josiah Martin's absence. Um, so again, important that they're kind of sitting here, they're meeting, they're the ones who are deciding on a state level how are we responding to all of the things that are going on.

Um, so by the time that we've gotten to, to 1775, again, we've already had those, um- Those first shots fired in Lexington and Concord, so we're at a really tense moment, um, in sort of needing to decide are we going to start moving towards independence, or are we going to continue to ask Great Britain to treat us fairly?

Because that's really all the American Revolution was about. Um, initially the goal was not to become a separate country. Initially, the goal was just sort of to reform the way that the government was acting towards us, which is very similar to how the regulators were kind of moving. [00:27:00] Yes. Which I think is a interesting to interesting kinda line to draw.

Um, but at the Congress, they established six military districts. These are different zones that are gonna be smaller ways of, um, sort of governing. Um, they are establishing their own form of currency, which is really cool. We have one of those pieces of, um, currency. It's still at the Orange County Historical Museum, so still in Hillsborough, where it was first issued, which is cool.

Um, and then last but not least, they are making arrangements for manufacturing things like weapons, paper, and cloth that are going to be necessary. So, um, it's a little bit like if you're thinking of the American Revolution, I think, in terms of a breakup. It's like, you know, up until this point it's been the fighting, the squabbling, but you're making up the next day, or at the very least you're deciding to keep going.

This is, like, kind of like America deciding that they're gonna pull their suitcase out, um, and maybe set a Google f- Google alert for flights, or even booking, like, a refundable [00:28:00] ticket at this point of like, "Okay, we're, like, really being serious about this breakup that's gonna happen." But you haven't cleaned out the

Bill: checking account yet,

Kelly Arnold: right?

Right,

Bill: exactly. You haven't done that yet.

Kelly Arnold: Exactly. Gotcha. Right. It's still like, it's still the toothbrush is on the counter, but it's like, okay, maybe some of my other things I'm starting to, to sort of gather up and, um, place into a, a new, um, area so that it's a grab-and-go type of thing, so.

Bill: Did they realize, um, at that time the danger they were putting themselves and their family in?

I mean- Yeah ... this, this was no insignificant thing. I mean, Britain was powerful.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, I

Bill: think- They could crush 'em ...

Kelly Arnold: that's really what Boston kind of showed. Yeah. Um, I think Boston really was sort of that [00:29:00] initial kind of h- hot bed of, um- Showing exactly how far the British government was willing to go when they were pushed, um, and also sort of showing how far the American colonists were willing to go in terms of protesting things that they felt was unfair.

I mean, that's exactly what the Boston Tea Party sort of is. It's everybody throwing boxes of tea into the harbor to protest, um, having to pay additional import taxes on it. Um, and so I do think that at this point in time, the folks who are showing up to this meeting, they are aware, fully aware of just how dangerous this is, and it's part of why they choose Hillsborough as the actual site that they're going to.

The first two provincial congresses were held in New Bern, which was the colonial capital at the time. It's where Tryon Palace is. It's right on the coast, so it's easy for British ships to get in. Um, Hillsborough, again, it's much further west. It's gonna take at least a few days of travel over land, which is much slower [00:30:00] than water travel.

Um, so theoretically, it would give the folks who are part of this provincial congress, um, a little bit of extra time should they need to sort of flee any oncoming British troops. So, um, part of it, again, was that Hillsborough's already set up. It's already kind of has the makings of being this important place.

It has the, the facilities to be able to house 213 additional men, along with their families and their servants and their the folks that they're have enslaved. But it's also just far enough away that they're sort of at least a little bit out of the reach of power for the time being and able to have these kind of difficult conversations.

Bill: Um, y- you know, what's interesting, we're so used to everything happening like yesterday, right?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: Um, time really was a big factor.

Kelly Arnold: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And it played in favor, I think, of those folks versus- Britain, right?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um-

Bill: They used it. They were smart to use it that way.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. And I [00:31:00] think, too, um, I mean, it...

I think they knew having the Third Provincial Congress, knowing that this is gonna be taking a longer step, that was something that took longer. The first two congresses, they take about three or four days. Right. Um, it's really just, again, kinda signing off on things that other folks had already written, sort of the sentiments that are already happening.

But the Third Provincial Congress, this is really the first time that they have to start, you know, kind of compromising and having real discussions on, okay, what does this look like? Like, who is running these military districts? What is our currency backed by? Um, who is in charge of setting up these manufacturing facilities?

What are these manufacturing facilities going to sort of create? And once they create weaponry and paper, how are we moving that? And that's something that they know they're going to need time to be able to have those sort of hard conversations on. It's not something that, you know, you can just sort of sit down and all agree on.

You're all gonna have different opinions. Um, so again, choosing Hillsborough and [00:32:00] giving themselves that time for, for, you know, forces to be able to travel to them, but also that time for them to know that they have sort of a safe place or as safe of a place as they can get to discuss and kinda have these conversations, that's, I mean, incredibly important for the eventual outcome and that, that movement towards independence.

Liz Morris: I mean, who's able to, like, set aside their job for a month? I don't know. Like- Yeah ... and these people must've been badass, right? Yeah. That they're willing to... I'm sure there was recorded, you know, who was there- Yeah ... and, like, who are these people?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. So a lot of them, um, they were politicians, so a lot of them were involved in the colonial government structures.

They were, you know, um, clerks or sort of representatives at the time. So, um, they are still doing their job. It's just, you know, kind of the question of, like, is Britain gonna still be paying my paycheck, or am I deferring this to some future form of government? [00:33:00] But, um, in the room at the Third Provincial Congress, you have a lot of important folks.

Um, one, Samuel Johnston, the one that I mentioned before, author of the Johnston Riot Act, he's the president of the Congress, and so he's offi- officially the highest-ranking person in all of North Carolina at the time. Um, he was sort of Josiah Martin's second, um, in the sort of colonial power structure, and so he kind of becomes the natural choice for, okay, who's gonna lead us in Martin's absence?

Um, you have the first through seventh governors future governors of North Carolina that are in the room, names like Richard Caswell, Alexander Martin, Benjamin Williams, Samuel Ashe, Thomas Burke, and Abner Nash. And some of those are counties that we know of today, Caswell and Nash especially. Mm. Um, you have all three signers from North Carolina who go on to sign the Declaration of Independence, and sort of imagine that they're probably the firebrands in the room, really advocating for us to take those more and more steps.

Um, those are William Hooper, James Penn, um, Joseph Hewes. And [00:34:00] then we also have some folks who just are major military players. Francis Nash, who I mentioned, who's from Hillsborough and has the pleasure of sort of walking a block over to, or not even a block over, just a few steps down to sort of this meeting place.

Robert Howe, the only major general from North Carolina, um, and also Nathaniel Rochester, who was sort of an important player at the time and goes on to found Rochester, New York after he leaves Hillsborough. So, um, there were a lot of folks who were kind of- Again, like they're politicians. Like it is, it is a dangerous job, and it is them not getting paid, and, you know, they really are putting their lives on the line.

But it's also work that they are sort of well-versed in. Like they know the political conversations that are happening at the time. They're aware of sort of these philosophical musings of, um, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And, um, they're also tried and tr- tested of that they know what the actual day-to-day work is that goes into running a colony.

And so again, thinking about the regulators, they, they are having [00:35:00] more of that perspective of how do we create something that's going to effectively govern all of these different people that we're now responsible for. So those are kind of the, the different folks who are in the room. It was quite a cast of characters.

I can only imagine little, tiny Hillsborough having all of these, you know, these 200 very influential men sort of all of a sudden descending. Um, that's one of the things I think about a lot. Like that must have just been a... I mean, we're in the World Cup right now, so it kind of, I guess, maybe feels a little bit like that, where it's like all of a sudden town is just sort of overrun by all these people who are not normally, um, in this area and sort of all have this one goal, and there's sort of this, this excitement and this fervor about, you know, what are we doing and this important decision-making, decision that they're making, so.

Bill: well you mentioned a lot of these part- people went on to become pretty prominent.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: A lot of other people, you know, as they got involved in [00:36:00] this, are either forgotten or maybe- Yeah ... had very negative,

Kelly Arnold: Yeah ...

Bill: complications from this. So how d- how were they able to come out of this Congress?

They had to be somewhat united-

Kelly Arnold: Yeah ...

Bill: themselves, but they had to s- unite the regulators and everybody else, I would think, to move forward. Yeah,

Kelly Arnold: absolutely.

Bill: So what happened after that? The, the Congress is done, they decided- Yeah ... they were gonna do what they're gonna do. That was really the beginning.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Wasn't it? Absolutely, yeah. So it was this, again, sort of the stepping stone. What ends up going on and, um, they sort of have the, the benefit as they go on of their sort of a rallying moment for, um, all of North Carolina that brings them together. So February 1776, so just a few months after the Congress is closed, we get the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge.

That's the first and kind of only really highly significant revolutionary battle that takes place in North Carolina. There are a few others, but none that are quite so much of a fire brand to the community as the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge is. Um, in it you [00:37:00] have these the Scottish, um, regiment that goes up against the British and are just sort of absolutely slaughtered.

I mean, it is like a, It's a bloodbath. Um, and the- It really quells a lot of loyalist sentiment in North Carolina. It really kinda brings people together, showing that, you know, the British government doesn't necessarily have their best interests at heart, and is willing to spill blood in order to keep them in the colony.

So if we sort of compare it to the Boston Massacre, maybe the thing that, like, incited Bostonians to understand just how serious the, the British government was, um, that's exactly what the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge is for North Carolinians. And of course, there are still loyalists. They still are In, um, in and around North Carolina.

But that's really the thing that kind of lightning rods to bring the whole community together.

Bill: See, that's interesting you say that. I, I would think, too, it would... I'm guessing the Brits were probably thinking it would have the [00:38:00] opposite effect.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. Yeah. You know? They definitely- And it didn't. Yeah.

Because, I mean, if you're thinking about it, again, comparing back to the Regulator Movement, you have the Battle of Alamance, which is also sort of this one day, one battle up against these small farmers. Um, and it's British forces that are going up against them and trying to quell rebellion. The Battle of Alamance is the end for the Regulator Movement.

There really isn't... It does its job. It shows the power of the Crown, it shows how far they're willing to go, and it sort of ends it. So, um, for the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge, it again just shows you, you know, six years down the line how much has changed for these people that are living in America. And I think, too, just how much, how far, like, Great Britain had pushed people to, like, be willing to sort of take the step into the unknown.

Um, that's where you sort of, after that battle, um, that's when April 12th we get our Halifax Resolves, um, which are kind of our first step into, like, really declaring independence. The Meckler- the Mecklenburg Declaration [00:39:00] happens before that, but that is a sticky subject all on its own, so I will not trod on that as a historian 'cause there are people who are far more educated that have better opinions than I do.

Um, but April 12th, 1776, that Halifax Resolves, that's sort of our precursor, um, to actually taking for North Carolina independence, and that's sort of what sets us up to send people to the Continental Congresses, which is where the Declaration of Independence itself sort of gets signed. So the the, it...

We definitely couldn't have gotten to that step, though, without Hillsborough. And I think, again, it's, it's really significant that Hillsborough was the place that was chosen, and it wasn't done willy-nilly. It was very intentionally chosen as the place for some of these precursor conversations- Mm-hmm ... to happen, um, and to sort of allow the s- swift action.

I mean, February to April, that's a pretty short amount of time to go from a major battle to sort of declaring a form of independence. Um, and, [00:40:00] um, you couldn't have done that without sort of the f- pre-planning that happens at the Hillsborough Third Provincial Congress.

Liz Morris: I'm coming out of this feeling very important.

Kelly Arnold: Hillsborough's so important. Look what we did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: I wonder how many of us would do it today, going- I, I mean seriously, I mean, imagine what it must have been, the conversations that must have been had by husband and wives and families- Yeah ... all throughout North Carolina going, "You're doing what?"

And what that really actually meant.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: You know, because, um, man, that would be, that would have been frightening I think for a lot of people, and the fact that they weren't frightened off- Yeah ... is a true testament to the people here.

Kelly Arnold: Absolutely, and I mean, I think that-

Bill: And I'm sure you would have been one that would not have been frightened.

Kelly Arnold: Well, and I think that's sort of why, like the American Revolution, I think we have this concept that, you know, we sort of just all... That's why I think the Boston Massacre, talking about how much earlier it was, um, is kind of important, 'cause you think that we just [00:41:00] sort of went from the Boston Massacre to the Boston Tea Party to Lexington- Right

and Concord to, "Okay, we're independent now." But it really was, like, a highly negotiated thing. People, there was really an attempt to- sort of reconcile with Great Britain and to get at least representation. I mean, that's no taxation without representation. The first thing that we're asking for is not to be independent.

The first thing that we're asking for is to be represented, to have a voice. Um, it's only when that clearly becomes a non-starter that we really have people who sort of have the hair-brained idea to peel off and to create not only our own nation, which had been done before, but this entirely new form of government- Yeah

that, you know, hasn't been seen since ancient Rome. So- Right ... um, that's sort of the, the, I guess, sticking point, I guess, of where the first, you know, William Hooper James Penn Joseph Hughes, the, the ones who are sort of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and are willing to put pen to paper on this, like, truly, like, [00:42:00] revolutionary document.

Um, they're the ones who are, like, really sticking their necks out, I think.

Bill: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. And they

Kelly Arnold: did. Yeah, absolutely. Many of them

Bill: didn't w- end well for them. Yeah.

Kelly Arnold: They didn't. Absolutely.

Liz Morris: Well, you're a fabulous storyteller. I really appreciate you-

Bill: I would have passed history if she had- ...

Liz Morris: educa-

Bill: Yeah,

Liz Morris: exactly.

I'm like, just keep explaining everything.

Bill: Yes. It's great. Oh, it's just amazing. Yeah. Thank you. And I do. I feel... I'm like, I'm not homegrown here. I'm a transplant, but I, I, you know, my chest is puffing out a bit- Yeah ... with remarkable stories. Well, um,

Liz Morris: they do walking tours- Yes ... at the- Yeah ... um, Alliance for Historic Hillsborough.

Kelly Arnold: Yes. Yeah. And- And our tour guides are fantastic. Every Saturday, 10 a- 10:30, sorry, not 10:00 AM. Every Saturday at 10:30, um, our guides are going out and they sort of go over all of this history and sort of where Hillsborough went next, 'cause we definitely don't stop with, um, with the American Revolution. We continue to have important roles in the Civil War, um, in sort of the Industrial [00:43:00] Revolution as it comes to the South post-Civil War, and we create mills and things like that.

Um, and we're still a... I would like to think we're still a pretty cool town today, still kinda making waves and, um, it's a, it's always a, a good place to visit. Um, but we do love our history and, and-

Liz Morris: Oh ...

Kelly Arnold: keep it front of mind.

Liz Morris: Yeah. Well, you also, um... Tell us about the event coming up in the fall.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. I, I know that- Yeah

that's exciting. So we have our Outlandish Hillsborough Scottish Festival, um, that's based on the TV series and book series Outlander, written by Diana Gabaldon. Um, it's actually tied into the Regulator movement, um, and to the American Revolution, I guess, technically, since, um, Jamie Fraser, our main character is actually forced by Governor Tryon to sort of join his militia and to march against the Regulators, um, which is, sort of counter to what you would think Jamie would be doing because he's a small farmer himself, sort of having [00:44:00] this, um, subsistence thing.

But Jamie and Claire sort of get drawn into the, the regulators, and as do their daughter and things like that. But in September we gather up at Ayr Mount, which is a s- 1815 home built by a Scottish merchant named William Kirkland. Um, and we have a big festival that just sort of celebrates Hillsborough's Scottish history, our connection to the Outlander series, and a lot of like, sort of this revolutionary regulator colonial, um, milieu that like Jamie and Claire sort of find themselves in.

Um, you're talking about you would have paid attention in history class or- Mm-hmm ... had fun in history class. I think that's sort of the, the power of things like the Outlander series. People learn about these events and the complicated histories around them, um, in a way that's fun. Yeah. And that's definitely what we try to do at the Outlandish Hillsborough Scottish Festival.

We have our, our speakers tent where you can learn a little bit, but we also have our whiskey tastings and our bagpipers and dancing and all [00:45:00] of that good stuff, too. So try to make it a little bit of history with a lot of fun on the side, I

Bill: think. See? A lot of fun- ... would have gone a long way. The whiskey tasting.

Yeah, absolutely. No, I agree. The

Kelly Arnold: whiskey tasting is great.

Bill: Yes. It's

Kelly Arnold: my favorite part. Okay.

Bill: I may get a, to put a wig on after all. Yeah. Have

Kelly Arnold: a

Bill: little whiskey. I love

Liz Morris: it. Yeah. Well, before we close, would you be willing to stick around for a Flags of Change segment? Yeah,

Kelly Arnold: absolutely.

Liz Morris: Okay. Sounds great. Awesome.

Well, um, Kelly actually recommended that we talk about the flag of the Society of the Cincinnati, which I personally had never heard of. Um, so in this segment, just tee it up, um, we pick a flag, and we follow it back to where it came from and the people, you know, behind the, the movement. And, um, so this flag, I think, comes from right down the road.

Kelly Arnold: Mm-hmm.

Liz Morris: Um, it's founded [00:46:00] by officers of the Revolution, um, who went back to ordinary life when the war ended.

Kelly Arnold: Yes.

Liz Morris: And I guess there's a North Carolina chapter in Hillsborough that's still around.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah

Liz Morris: Um, and so Kelly's gonna tell us, you know, a little bit about, I guess start with what is The Society of the Cincinnati?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, The Society of the Cincinnati, it was sort of a fraternal organization, so I'm a descendant of it, but technically not allowed in it 'cause of that pesky X chromosome. Um, the but The Society of the Cincinnati was founded by officers of the Continental Army, so they would've been folks who, um, were commissioned officers in the continental line, so not just standard, um, run-of-the-mill soldiers, somebody who had a little bit of power in it.

Um, it's originally started, the very first chapter is created by Henry Knox, um, and George Washington serves as sort of the first president of it, um, alongside the Marquis de Lafayette, our French, Wow ... revolutionary who sort of comes to [00:47:00] our aid. Um, but that's founded up in Newburgh, New York in May of 1783.

Um, and quickly, sort of other chapters are founded in all of the original 13 colonies, and then the addition of France, the Marquis de Lafayette goes on and creates, um, his own chapter to sort of acknowledge the officers who served in the continental line, um, on our behalf. Um, so in Hillsborough on O- on October 3rd of 1783, um many of the North Carolina officers gather at James Hogg's cabin, which is sort of up on the hill actually right near the Regulator marker in town today.

Um, and they put together the first version of the North Carolina chapter of the society. Um, so they kind of come together and, and create this organization. James Hogg was a big, and that's H-O-double-G. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's spelled as Hogg. Um, his kids later changed their name. I wonder why. Yeah. 'Cause you could maybe [00:48:00] imagine the schoolyard taunts that come from having Hogg as your last name.

Um, but J- James Hogg was a trader. He was a merchant, um, and sort of was one of the founding trustees of UNC. So in addition to his role founding The Society of Cincinnati, he's sort of a big player on the stage as well.

Liz Morris: What, what was their mission like? What were they hoping to

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely.

So the, originally the Society of the Cincinnati, they had, um, the main goal of the organization is to perpetuate the memory of the American Revolution, right? They're trying to keep in mind why did we fight for this independence, because that's sort of important as you go forward. Um, they're also trying to keep those bonds in between the officers, um, just sort of like acknowledging that they went through this thing together and, um, becoming a social organization with them to sort of keep up friendships and all of those good things.

Um, promoting the ideals of the revolution was another big one, and then what I think is probably, like, the [00:49:00] most important is that they actually set up systems to provide for families in need. So most often these are, um, veterans who are disabled, who need medical care. It's also the wives and the children who are left behind by the folks who don't make it through the revolution.

Um, there's a particular focus on, like, the officers' wives since that's sort of the, the goal of, um, this chapter, but, you know, they really become sort of a mutual aid society ensuring that these women and children who are left behind and are sort of orphaned and widowed by the war are, um, able to continue living and don't sort of fall into destitution.

Um- So those are sort of the main things. Um, and then nowadays they just, they mostly support educational efforts. Again, that kind of idea of keeping the memory of the American Revolution alive, the ideals of independence. That's more of the focus. Um, creating educational materials, preserving, um, important items from the American Revolution, and then also just [00:50:00] making sure that education gets to people out in the world, and especially school children.

I mean, that's the easiest place to sort of catch people, um, and introduce them to kind of the story. So they're having a banner year this year with it being the 250th.

Liz Morris: I bet.

Bill: God bless them for that. Yeah. Trust me, public education history classes- Yeah ... have changed a lot.

Kelly Arnold: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Bill: And, um, this, like, a, a session like this, you should go in.

Yeah. And teach kids about this. They'd be fascinated. They'd learn so much more. Yeah. You know? And I, I don't know. It, I think the further we get away from anything, right- Yeah,

Kelly Arnold: absolutely ...

Bill: we tend to forget.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: And it's too important to forget.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah, absolutely.

Bill: What's the flag, though?

Kelly Arnold: Yeah,

Bill: I was- Is it a bottle of whiskey?

Kelly Arnold: No, it's not a bottle of whiskey. No. What's the flag? Not a bottle of whiskey. So the flag, um, it's 13 stripes for the 13 colonies, so just like the US flag, but it's in blue and white. Um, it's, like, kind of a light, almost like Tar Heel blue, um, of course. Yes. But I don't think that's why they picked it- ... to be that color.

Um, but it's [00:51:00] initially the idea was that it was representing the allegiance of America and France. Um, rather than having 13 stars, though, it actually has 14 stars, so that's each of the original colonies and then that French chapter that gets added on. Sort of a funny story, I was talking to my dad, 'cause it was Father's Day this past weekend, um, and asking him if he knew anything about the flag since he's a part of the Society of the Cincinnati, and he told me that a few years ago, he was looking at our flag that was hanging off of our porch, and he was counting the stars.

And he's like, "There's the wrong number of stars on that flag." And there were 13 rather than 14, so there are a couple Society flags- Oh ... running out around there, um- Fraudulent. Yeah, just because 13 stars is what you would expect to see- Exactly ... from flags of the time period. 14 is kind of an odd one. We don't see that super often.

Um, so now there's the correct flags that are sort of running around. But my dad, um, I felt like I owed it to him to share that he was the one that sorta was staring at the flag enough to be able to figure that one out from [00:52:00] whoever was, I know it wasn't you guys, producing it. But whoever was producing it- Yeah

at the time, um-

Bill: Trying to

Kelly Arnold: save a buck, right? Exactly. Yeah, I know. I know. Just cut some corners. How- They won't,

Bill: they

Liz Morris: won't notice

Kelly Arnold: it, they're saying. It's not quite as aesthetically pleasing, too, 'cause, like, with 14 it's, like-

Bill: Yeah,

Kelly Arnold: it's a little off ... yeah, it's, it's a little off. Yeah. It's a little off. Um- But yeah, and then the last thing that's on the flag is the, the eagle, the society's insignia.

Um, it's, um, designed by Charles Pierre L'Enfant who also designed, um, and laid out Washington DC. That's sort of where most people will know him from. There's a, a DC Metro station that's named after him. Um, but he creates the American e- It's an American bald eagle, um, and it has the ancient Roman hero Cincinnatus.

So that would be Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus. He was sort of this figure, um, known for becoming one of the dictators of Rome and then sort of deciding, um, that he is going to give up his power, give up [00:53:00] the sword, and instead take up, um, his farming implements once again. So George Washington, because he steps down from being the president after two terms, um, and decides to head back to Mount Vernon, head back to his farm, he's known as the American Cincinnatus.

Uh-huh. This is sort of the, like, lore behind the Society of the Cincinnati and sort of the thing that they praise. So the whole point of the Society of the Cincinnati is these officers turning away from wartime and turning into peace, becoming people who are providing for their communities, which I think is a, is a beautiful sentiment.

Um, but yeah, the, the eagle itself, you'll notice it has downturned wings, again, not like taking off in flight, um, and an olive branch, a literal representation of peace, um, in addition to that little depiction of Cincinnatus. So, um, it's said to emphasize the founding of a peaceful American republic and the return of s- its soldiers to their citizen lives.

Bill: Nice. Yeah. Can anybody join, or is it open to just descendants or how does it work? It's, it's open

Kelly Arnold: to just descendants. That's what I thought. So it's one of the more, like- Very

Bill: exclusive.

Kelly Arnold: And [00:54:00] male- Yeah, it's one of the more- ... it sounds like Yes ... male descendants ... only men, only men de- male descendants. You- You now

Bill: know how a woman feels.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah.

Bill: Right? Yeah.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. I've been

Bill: excluded.

Kelly Arnold: Excluded. Excluded. There are some honorary- You might be

Liz Morris: a descendant. You don't know.

Kelly Arnold: That is true.

Bill: Well, that's true.

Kelly Arnold: It's true. It's

Bill: true. Okay.

Liz Morris: Ancestry.com.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. There are also honorary members that are appointed. There's quite a few different, um, Ways

Bill: to sneak in?

Yeah.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. There's like, I mean, if you were to become, like, I don't know, the President of the United States- Oh. For example. ... usually they are pretty- Okay ... pretty eligible for a, an honorary membership, so you know, that's a pretty easy one to attain.

Bill: Well, it sounds like they do wonderful work, though. Yeah. The whole premise of it is awesome.

Oh,

Kelly Arnold: absolutely. Yeah. So

Bill: yeah.

Liz Morris: Yeah. Thank you so much for-

Bill: Yeah, thank you ...

Liz Morris: educating us on multiple things, and thank you for the work you do with The Alliance and- Absolutely ... um, this was a real

Kelly Arnold: treat.

Bill: Hopefully we'll- Yeah, it really was. Yeah. Thank you.

Kelly Arnold: Yeah. Hopefully we'll see y'all at the whiskey tasting too one September.

[00:55:00]