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Evolved Radio Podcast: Interviews with technology experts, industry thought leaders, business leaders and other interesting minds. Exploring the evolution of business and technology.
Todd Kane: Most MSPs are still
treating automation as a nice-to-have.
Aaron Bailey has been treating
it like a core operational
strategy for over a decade.
Aaron is the COO at Webit Services.
Before that, he was COO at
MSP Bots and an RPA wizard.
He's seen automation from both the
product side and the ops side, and
that's a perspective most people
don't always have in the MSP industry.
get into all things AI, RPA,
automation, and general operations.
welcome to the Evolved Radio podcast
Aarin: Thanks for having me, Todd
Todd Kane: So you are, uh, very close
to my heart as a, an operator, uh,
obsessed with improvement and efficiency
and, looking for all the things that
you can squeeze out of the tools and
the systems that you're building.
so you wanna tell us a, a bit about kind
of your experience and your journey on, on
that moving, I guess, from sort of theâ¦
You were a tech, obviously, then went
into the management and operations
side, and then went really heavy
into, uh, automation opportunities.
How did that come about?
Like, what was sort of the, the
aha moment where you're like, "I
think we could do this better"?
Aarin: Yeah, I think it
was right around COVID.
We had just hit COVID, and I was
working, uh, at a similar sized
or about a $4 million MSP north
of, uh, where I'm at now in Elgin.
Um, and, and it was before
all these tools had come out.
Anything hadâ¦
Nobody had even heard of,
of RPA in the industry.
And I was sitting there looking at
a ton of PowerShell scripts, and I'm
like, "How do I string these together?"
And it became one kind of principle
of, I feel like if I could do multiple
things at once or in a string, then I
could potentially repair a machine or
execute more complex tasks than I'm
currently getting from, like, my RMM.
Um, and, and you get limited to, like,
the RMM of just being a quick job or,
or maybe it's just running the component
and, and there goes the job, and it's
done, and you get what you get at the end.
So I got really fascinated about
stringing some of these events
together, and it really was just
tinkering with the PowerShell scripts.
And as I kinda got really more into it,
it d- it kind of evolved into Python
taking over more of the scripting
components of it and then, and then a GUI.
And so I was a few years in, and
that's when I met Daniel, and I was,
like, completely enamored with him.
He just had all these great
ideas, and I'm like, "Daniel,
let me show you what I'm doing.
Like, I, I might be crazy, but I feel like
there's something to what you're saying."
Um, and so I ran it through the whole
thing, and he's like, "Wow, that's
exactly, you know, that's exactly
where my head's at too operationally."
And he's like, "Let me
show you this platform."
And so I was like, "Oh, I'd
love to be a part of that."
And it kinda just took over from
there and, and just, you know,
bunch of super nerds just nerding
out even more about automation.
It just, uh, it became a problem where
it's like we're carrying a stopwatch
'cause if you get Daniel and I in a
room, we'll just talk forever and ever
and ever, and then we look back, and
we're like, "Okay, what did we get done?"
So it's just kinda been
this evolving fascination.
Um, and then of course when ChatGPT
came out and everything and it kinda
changed the landscape, it really
changed how much I could get done.
And I started looking at it of just,
okay, well, how can I augment myself to
get more of what I wanna get done, done?
Um, and then just one thing after
another and, you know, four endless
sleepless nights after another, and I'm
realizing all the cool stuff I can do.
And I've just burnt, you know,
84 hours into an AI project,
and, uh, I'm explaining to my
wife, "It's gonna be okay."
Todd Kane: This feels
Aarin: It's all in the name of work.
Todd Kane: Yeah.
Like, do you have any hobbies anymore?
Yeah, yeah, lots of vibe coding,
lots of, uh, figuring stuff
Aarin: Yeah.
Todd Kane: AI.
Yeah.
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: Well, so let's, uh, let's
go deep and nerdy then, 'cause,
like, a bunch of things that you
Aarin: Sure
Todd Kane: I wanna understand better.
Um, so I, I guess from my
perspective, like, uh, like I'll,
I'll give the background on this.
I was always very cautious and a bit
skeptical about the way that vendors
positioned automation and, you know,
the original, uh, what they called AI,
which was, like, barely machine learning.
It was a bunch of strung
together if-then statements.
a-a-and I think my skepticism
was somewhat justified.
Uh, my tune has changed a
lot, which we'll get to.
But, uh, w-w-w- the RMM
kind of relying onâ¦
Like, the original RMMs were scripts
inside the RMM, and then what I, I
kind of told people based on what
I sort of understood was, like,
"Don't rely on internal scripts.
Don't build your scripts in your RMM.
Just have your RMM call
PowerShell scripts."
I still sort of understand that
that's probably the default
way to go about things as, uh,
maybe for general purpose stuff.
Is that correct, or would you sayâ¦
Like you said, you kind of drifted
more into, into, like, Python for,
for more programmatic controls
of this beyond PowerShell.
What was the difference between those?
Would you say, like, typical automations
from R- from an RMM are still
probably better done in PowerShell,
or is there, uh, would Python be the
new hotness, and if w- if so, why?
Aarin: They're sort of
different languages.
I think I've always still had PowerShell
that runs because in some way.
I mean, it depends on
what I'm interacting with.
If I'm interacting with like the
Windows system or something like
that, yeah, I'm, I'm definitely diving
into my, my, my PowerShell because
it's readily available on the system,
don't have to do anything special.
I think what ended up changing for
us is what we wanted to get out of
the system was a little bit more
than what a lot of people can offer.
You get SaaS products and
a lot of them are great.
You can do a bunch of great stuff with
them, but there's always something
more that we wanna do as engineers that
just doesn't fit into that white glove.
Um, and so that kind of evolved
into-- It started off as actually a,
uh, a bot, um, when I came to Webit.
Uh, it started off as just a,
a bot on the Azura framework.
Um, and so it was, uh, setting all
that stuff up and then hooking that
into the automations with Roost and
then breaking free of the RMM entirely.
The only reason we use RMMs is, um,
we'll write scripts for monitoring
if we're trying to monitor like a
service or, or something like that.
Um, and then we'll use it to push
our quick jobs coming off of like
Roost or something like that.
And so, um, most of our actual computation
doesn't even happen in the RMM.
Um, I go crazier.
I have SQL servers.
I've got Python servers.
I've got just server upon
server of just stuff.
It's, it's kind of looking at it more
like a beehive of taking individualized
components and, and essentially what
is that component really good at and
snapping it into a larger system, um,
that all works in conjunction together.
And so I'll have a little bit in Roost.
I've got a little bit in, in like our
thread system that we currently run.
We've got, uh, uh, some that's in a
Python server just sitting in Azura.
Um, but that's pretty much our primary
instance of stuff running is that
Python server which runs all our
PowerShell scripts, uh, all our Python,
everything comes from that server.
But it, it's where it starts out
is either on the RMM or within
Roost, um, coming into that, and
then it takes a direction based on
whatever the code's telling it to do.
Todd Kane: Okay, so it's more like
extensibility than it was sort of like,
like the actual call actions, right?
Like PowerShell's
Aarin: Correct
Todd Kane: kind of controlling a
Windows server or a Windows desktop,
Aarin: Absolutely
Todd Kane: more sort of global
control and like functions that
would call other stuff to do.
I guess like, yeah, like you said,
like it's almost in a way, like
would you consider it sort of an
alternate or a replacement of the
larger functions of the RMM in a way?
Aarin: No, I think they
still have their own purpose.
Um, I mean, you could probably dice
and I'm sure there's crazier people
out there than me that have probably
tried, but I try to limit the amount
of agents that, that are on my
clients' computers in the first place.
I mean, we've already got three
or four different agents between
systems that run on these things.
So that's always been a big concern.
Being able to leverage the RMM in
that capacity doesn't really change
what we're doing with it as far as
the monitoring and everything else.
It just, it's, it's kind of just, okay,
I don't want that to be my entry point.
I don't want my stuff to start in the RMM.
It just needs to be a piece or a layer
of this bigger system that we're building
because inevitably, um, back to that
beehive, as we start to snap stuff
in and, and snap them together, um,
we get better, we get faster, we get
smarter with every piece that happens.
And so it's just another layer, um, in
that, in that onion that we're building
Todd Kane: Yeah, 'cause this sort of
goes to like, um, who is it told me this?
I think it was Dave Sobel described
RMM as a zombie product to me.
I don't know if he got this from somebody
else or if, uh, he coined that, but
like I, I got immediately attached to
that idea, and I still feel like it's
somewhat true, but maybe I'm losing a
bit of faith that like the, the, that
it becoming a true zombie product is as
near term as maybe I imagined it was.
I think it's still got some legs, but
like the longer term view of this I think
becomes more like what you're describing
of like global infrastructure, uh, and
how these things are knitted together
in some fashion rather than it being
kind of built actually in the RMM.
I think the RMM may be still as an
attach point or maybe it migrates to
like, uh, kind of Intune as backplane
management, those sorts of things, right?
But then, you know, um, you know, how
are we managing SaaS platforms and, you
know, third-party integrations, right?
Um, uh, so, you know, it gets, it get-
gets kind of complicated, but maybe as
a quick aside, how do you feel about,
uh, that, that description of RMM as a
zombie product and like it will continue
to live on, but like doesn't sort of
carry the same gravity or importance in
the MSP ecosystem in five years, say?
Aarin: I mean, I don't, I don'tâ¦
The world's getting
really, really complicated.
I mean, when I look at could I
cut my RMM today and be just fine?
Probably.
I probably could.
Would I have to do some extra
work to get that to happen?
Yes.
Uh, but most of our clients
have E3, so we can tap into the
Microsoft system for patching.
Monitoring, okay, yeah, that's a
loss, but we also have Imibot, so that
helps us with like RMM and, and, and
patching and some other stuff as well.
So we've got so manyâ¦
I think we counted last time, we had
something like 70 tools in our arsenal.
Um, and I was just thinking, "My
God, uh, we have a lot of stuff."
Um, and it becomes why?
And, and I, I agree.
I don't see five years, maybe a little
bit longer, um, but you just get one
good idea that just shakes up everything
and, and the cards start falling.
I mean, we've already
saw- seen threats come in.
Or not really threats, I think fantastic
products, but like Halo coming into
the marketplace and really just taking
on, um, that Autotask Connectwise
relationship of them being the dominant.
Now here they come, and you have NinjaOne
making a play for it with their PSA
and their RMM, and, and they're trying
to pair them together of the best
functionality that could possibly happen.
And that's true when you're
in their platform, absolutely.
Like I'm not gonna be able to
replicate the same experience in
my Autotask platform as I would if
I started to say, "Hey, I'm gonna
throw in, um, you know, Automate or
whatever, uh, as my RMM platform."
It'd be a completely different experience.
So I, I don't know that it's
really the RMM is going away.
It's reshaping into a different
experience, um, into what it's being
used for and how it's being used.
Uh, the, the one thing that's
really doesn't seem to be changing
at that, that layer is the PSA
as far as being a ticketing
tool, but I think that's natural.
I mean, what are you gonna
do with a ticketing tool?
Inject some AI into a
50-year-old framework?
Todd Kane: Well, e- even like Thread,
you know, like I, I love this, the
work that they're doing over there
and, and they have this, this call
to action of death to the ticket.
But, you know, realistically, there
still needs to be some type of database
of record of work activity and action.
So is it a PSA?
Like, where does the ticket live?
Like, we still k- uh, we need
the plumbing still, right?
Aarin: You need the plumbing.
If there's not a ticket,
it never happened.
Todd Kane: Yeah, that's
Aarin: Even if it did happen
and you don't know it,
Todd Kane: Yeah
Aarin: prove it.
It's like if a tree falls in
the wood and nobody's around to
hear it, it doesn't make a sound
Todd Kane: Yeah.
So this also lends to, you
know, delicate infrastructure.
Like, as you kind of like gobble these
things together and like pack modules
onto modules and, and build upon sort
of this, this, uh, this towering code
structure, um, how do you think about
sort of the risk of that being, you
know, unstable or a lot of, uh, support
effort or, uh, or it just being quite
complicated and troubleshooting things
that go sideways for some reason?
If you add a module, then all of a
sudden three other things break, right?
Like how, uh, how do you think about
scaling the complexity of the things
that you're building internally?
Aarin: I think that's part of what
I've tried to do is keep everything
into those separate modules and
then, you know, we use a lot of
RESTful API and other stuff to, toâ¦
That way if something does break, it's
not really affecting the whole platform.
We see it just in that
individualized module.
Um, but one of the things that I've,
I've really tried to really focus
the whole team on preparing for is,
like, if you're not ready to start
learning Python, at least in a, in
a readability, you don't need to go
sit there and code out the next app.
But you need to be able to read Python.
You need to understand what RPA
and automation is, and be able
to have a conversation in, in,
in what's going on in reality.
Um, it, it helps as we start to go through
this to have more people involved in that
sort of, that sort of mentality of, okay,
five, six years ago, everybody was jumping
on the security train and everybody needed
to be a security trained professional.
Well, now it's like, okay,
well, why wouldn't we do the
same thing with automation?
Um, and it makes more sense
because, or it makes just as much
sense as it did with security
because the world ends up shifting.
If you're not preparing your
staff for that, then in five
years I won't even be in business.
So it's kinda just adopting
and taking, like, I understand
that AI is gonna happen.
I understand that the
world is gonna change.
How can we better prepare
ourselves, um, to be ready for that?
And it's, it's kinda brings me back
to that Ray Dalio quote of just,
"You're going down a river and
there's always objects in the river.
Um, you can't remove the objects.
All you can do is, is learn
to go around the objects."
And that's just kind of how the,
uh, the AI and the MSP's gone
Todd Kane: Or flow like l- flow
like water, Bruce Lee, right?
Aarin: Yes.
Todd Kane: Uh, okay, so I'll, I'll
maybe circle back to that 'cause
that's another thing I wanted to,
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: on here.
Um, but the other, the other aspect
that I find really interesting, um, I,
I know a lot of the stuff that you're
building, you build internally rather
than using something off the shelf.
Now, part of this is because you can,
I suppose, and you have a bit more
control over it, But, like, uh, what's,
what's sort of your calculus on I
could buy an off-the-shelf project, uh,
product, but, you know, for example,
one of the things I know you did was,
uh, built like your own AI for triage.
Like, that's generally beyond the
capability of a lot of people.
Maybe less so now with some of the,
like the AI, uh, assisted coding tools.
But, um, uh, that, that's, uh,
that's something you chose to build
internally rather than using a, like
a, a software package that you could
buy that do, does the same thing.
So whatâ¦
Like, what's your, what's your thought
process or analysis of this feature
exists in some of the platforms
I could potentially purchase,
but I could also just go build
this myself because I know I can?
Aarin: I think it comes down to, uh,
looking at it from building at scale.
Uh, you know, we've, we've done a
considerable amount of just growth as,
as far as a company, and, and we're about
twice the size, but we've only added
two bodies, um, across the whole stack.
Um, everything has gone
up and, and, and weâ¦
As we start having to deal with
that, it becomes what delivers the
most ROI coming back off of that.
And that's an important factor because
I think early on as I was doing
automation, uh, I think I mentioned,
I would go spend dozens of hours
just trying to play around with it.
And, and it really became important
that if I was gonna sit down and do an
automation, it was gonna have some sort
of ROI or some impact on the company.
It wasn't just for the sake of automating.
And so as we start to build this stuff
up, we start looking at what is the cost
to do it versus the benefit that we're
actually getting off of this stuff.
How complex is this gonna be?
Um, and then the second half of that is
looking at does it fit what we wanna do?
Because we're not building
like every other MSP.
I mean, I've come across a lot, as
I'm sure you've come across a lot
of MSPs, and n-not one single one
have I ever looked at and said,
"Wow, you operate just like I do."
In fact, it's almost
always the exact opposite.
And so, um, and even when I was talking
to Daniel yesterday, uh, we were talking
about scale, and he's like, "Well, yeah,
you go build it for the one company
and that's great, it works perfect."
And then the second, okay.
And then the third, and then it's like,
oh crap, we've gotta go figure out we
missed this, this, this, this, this.
Um, and so that kind of became
just this whole, I don't wanna
have to deal with other problems
of other things that are going on.
I don't wanna have to deal with, uh,
um, being put into a box where I'm sure
it might work for this group of MSPs,
um, but we operate entirely different.
You know, our entire triage and dispatch
is automated, uh, with ninety-eight
percent accuracy, and we haven't
touched it in, in about a year now.
Um, the triage we did move, uh, naturally
over to Thread because, um, token costs
and which became a completely different
factor in all of this, of just how
much token costs are coming in this.
And it became cheaper to run this off
of Thread at the time than it did to
actually run this off of a large language
model, where inherently it's actually
cheaper, it's cheap enough to keep our
dispatching on that system using the AI
as kind of like a, um, this ticket got
missed in the process, so it, it runs
through a fail-safe check to say, "Did
everything get done on the ticket?"
before I actually punch it through
and send it out to somebody.
Which, and, and funny
enough, that uses no AI.
It's, it's actually all a roost
workflow and a stored SQL, uh,
process off an AI as our tenant.
So, um, it's really is a true hodgepodge,
but I haven't really gotten to like, this
is what is the best thing for ROI orâ¦
I think the best thing that I've
found is have a plan, know what
you're gonna build, and know that it's
gonna return some sort of ROI on it.
Um, and that's kind of
just been my guiding map
Todd Kane: Yeah, so that's
really fascinating, right?
Like, um, I, I, I quote this all the time
of, um, uh, especially being a person
that consults with of different MSPs
and gets a bit of a peek behind the door
for a lot of them, and I always joke
that everyone has the same predominant
business model for the most part.
Like, maybe you're a bit more of a
VAR, maybe you're a bit more of an
MSP, but generally, like, we're all
trying to achieve the same thing with
the same, same general business model.
of them operate the same way, right?
Like, which is
Aarin: Yeah.
Todd Kane: right?
Like, the number of ways to actually do
this and the differences that always sort
of stem from sort of the, the, the, the,
the lessons or the experiences of the
owner, the psychology of the owner, the
makeup of the team, the experiences of
the team, all of those things influence
how the operation actually sort of
spins out and what it looks like.
So there's, there's
definite truth to that.
But also your, your point about, um
We build it for ourselves because
we want it the way that we want it,
not the way that the vendor chose
to build it based on inputs from all
of these other companies that don't
operate the same way that we do.
I think that's really, really
interesting, quite insightful also
that, uh, um, you know, you, you--
again, because you have the capability
to take that on yourself, I think is
a bit of a unique advantage as well.
the token cost, I, I think this is
a really interesting aspect, right?
Like we're seeing this all over
the place in the enterprise, right?
So I'm glad you brought this up because
I'm curious how this will eventually start
to, uh, impact more of the MSP and the
SMB space, we're seeing at the enterprise
level, there, you know, I'm sure you've
heard the term token maxing, right?
There's a few, a few companies.
I know a guy who works at a very,
very recognizable, uh, uh, uh,
enterprise SA- uh, SaaS company,
they have a token leaderboard.
And the CFO was in a meeting with the
leadership team and suggested like,
"Hey, do you think we're creating, uh,
an incentive that doesn't align with
what we're trying to achieve here?"
And everyone kind of understood what
they were, they were suggesting, but
they got completely shut down and the,
the, the ethos from the leadership team
was essentially let them cook, right?
But at the same time, we're also seeing
a lot of enterprise companies that are
now drastically slashing the AI coding
budgets because they have, they have
dwarfed the actual, uh, human labor
costs that they were supposed to replace,
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: So there's some interesting
efficiency economics that are not
necessarily working out the way that
people anticipated with utilizing AI
coding, and I'm curious sort of how
this will eventually impact some of
the SMBs that are trying to, uh, you
know, do some of the stuff on your own.
Um, I think like you have a more
traditional coding background
and can do some of this.
You're, uh, kind of by yourself
and string these things together.
Uh, how much has that shifted
in using like, uh, um, you know,
vibe coding or AI pair coding?
How much of that is your, is
your workflow now versus before?
Aarin: Well, I think it's, I think
the industry has got it wrong.
AI was never, in my mind,
never meant to replace humans.
And the more that we try to go force
that down humanity's throat, the
more lost the companies are gonna be.
I mean, Salesforce went and laid off,
what, 4,000 jobs, and then next thing
you know they're hiring them all back.
Um, AI's always been an augmentation.
It's, it's, it's like taking
something that can only handleâ¦
It's, it's the world of data.
Our data in the world is so complex.
There's so much data.
We can't physically,
as humans, handle that.
So we need AI to be able to keep
up with the amount of complexity
that life is, is, like, produced.
But it's not like, oh, let's go
replace humans and, and we're just
gonna have robots walking around.
Like, that's, it's not gonna happen.
Um, but companies think that
that is a good way to get ROI.
Oh, let me just go replace it with
this magical robot in the sky that's
gonna make all my problems go away.
They end up making them worse because,
yes, the AI will kiss your butt, it'll
tell you you're right, it'll tell you
you have a great idea, even if you're
like, "Hey, I think I'm gonna go take
over the world with, uh, a slingshot."
"Yeah, you should do that.
That's a great idea.
I think you should do that."
I'm likeâ¦
So it's, it's fascinating to see
all these companies dive so heavy
into this, thinking that it was
gonna fix all the problems, but
it was not ever meant to do that.
It was meant to augment.
And so I augment my workflow, I would
say about 40% of the time, because I
can do more than I could without it.
And when we're talking like, oh,
let me go through and structure
out everything and all that, like,
I'll, I'll just make the AI do that.
But I still have to go back and check
it because what library did it use?
What did it do here?
What did it do there?
Um, which is always the biggest
thing working at MSP Bots.
It was one of the biggest things that
everybody looks at of, like, what
third-party libraries are you using
when you're coding in your system?
Because if one of those gets attacked,
it's, it's just an entryway into your app.
And so data security
became just so prevalent.
And so I get really paranoid in some
of the vibe coding in just using any
of the AI stuff for specific functions.
Like, I won't use it for anything
authe- authentication based.
I won't use it for anything, like,
security based and that nature.
But I will use it to check the security,
which is, is, it sounds weird, but it's
like checks and balances of yourself.
Todd Kane: Yep.
Aarin: Um-
Todd Kane: to that point,
like Mythos was like thatâ¦
There was a lot ofâ¦
I, I was talking about how like,
like Mythos is legit and like maybe
it's AGI and it, uh, its impact on
security w- it was pretty dramatic.
And I initially got a bunch of
pushback from people saying,
"Oh, you know, like, GPT 3.5,
they said they couldn't release
it because it was too dangerous.
Like, this is a marketing tactic."
I'm like, "No."
Like I, I agree with what you're saying,
but if you look at the data, like
it, it was able to find thousands and
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: of vulnerabilities
in, in open source software.
Like it was legit, right?
So I, I, I
Aarin: It's scary.
Todd Kane: It's really scary.
It's a totally
Aarin: It's scary.
And I read today that the, umâ¦
Yeah, that's the other thing about,
like, the AI is just, like, how do
we view the AI in the US is different
from how they would view it in China or
different from how they would view it
in Russia from, you know, just business
use cases, even down to environmentals.
Like, we're more like, "Oh, let's not
go kill a bunch of water and power
plants and build all this stuff."
Like, we're protesting out there.
They'll just keep building and building
and building, and some of that has been
seen in the, in the manifest of the number
of attacks that have come across recently.
And we just see more and more of
those AI attacks coming across and
across and across, and they're just,
they're just Rolodexing, looking for
those vulnerabilities, anyone they
can find, and then right in, and then
somebody's gonna have a real bad day.
Todd Kane: Yep.
I mean, we won't, we won't sidetrack.
This is something I, I probably
wanna have someone on to talk about,
uh, to go a little deep on this.
But like the, the, the whole idea that
like, uh, a data centers are gonna steal
all the water and, and things like that.
Like, we had this conversation on a, on
a group chat, um, that like, has anyone
attacked the almond industry, right?
Like see how much water they take, right?
Like a lot of these fears I think
are misplaced in application.
Like I get why people are fearful
of it, but I, and you, you see all
these layoffs and stuff like that, and
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: people that are coming
out of college are somewhat Right.
in kind of having some hate on for AI.
But I think sort of the, the why
is a maybe mi- misapplied and the
actual impact that it will carry,
I think is misapplied as well.
Aarin: I think the impact is huge.
I was, I was talking to my wife's
cousins and, and they're 20 years
old respectively in, in variances,
and their biggest concern is, "I
don't feel like I need to save.
I don't need to do anything because
AI is just gonna come get my job."
And I'm like, "That's not how you
should be feeling at 20 years old."
Todd Kane: Yeah.
Yeah
Aarin: And first off, it's
not coming to get your job.
I mean, I think that's just another
far-fetch in the industry of just
it's gonna replace all humans.
Okay, well, what would humans do then?
Like, that sounds like a very
dark dystopian future that
I don't wanna be a part of.
Can we get to Mars already?
Todd Kane: Yep.
Yeah, universal, uh,
universal, what is it?
Not universal bacon, um, uh,
universal base income, universal,
Aarin: Basic, yeah, universal basic income
Todd Kane: Yeah, but there was a second
one that, uh, I'm blanking on the term,
um, where it's, it's like a full version.
Like, it's not like
Aarin: Okay.
Todd Kane: like 60K a year,
Aarin: You just get a full paycheck
Todd Kane: everyone gets like 160K a year.
Uh, yeah, anyway, whatever that term is.
All right, so, uh, yeah, we won't solve
the, the AI debate necessarily right now,
Aarin: Not today.
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Todd Kane: so scaling, I, I think it's
interesting, like you noted, like you guys
essentially doubled in volume with only,
uh, adding two additional headcounts, so
like a, like a pretty, uh, asymmetric,
r- ratio for labor to, to work.
Um, I mean, you would, y- I think
you would credit that to a lot of
the work and the, the automation
work that you guys have done.
where would you say is sort
of some of the highest impact?
And, and maybe this is sort of a
twofold question of what did you
find, and therefore what would you
reme- recommend people investigating
within their business saying like,
"Well, shit, this sounds great.
Aaron, you know, uh, was able to have
this huge impact on, on the business
and how they manage the, the workflow."
What are the areas that you
found the most value in?
Um, you know, triage probably, um,
being a, a big component of that.
What are the other areas that,
that were a really good, uh, source
for you guys to automate work?
Aarin: Yeah.
The biggest thing came down
to having a really detailed,
um System across the board.
I mean, between, you know, the
vCIOs, the projects team, we
have a field team, we have a help
desk, we have a central services.
Not every single one of those teams even
existed when I started a few years ago.
Um, when I started, there
really wasn't much of a coherent
system that was kind of there.
Like, they had systems in place,
but there wasn't anything that
really tied stuff together.
And, and so I looked at it and saying,
"How do we tie all these things together?
Let's make it simple for the, simple for
the employee, uh, easy for me to, to kind
of have visibility into, and that it turns
over really good results for the client."
And so as we went through our, our entire
system, we started really just gutting
everything and rebuilding it because
I'm really kind of OCD about that.
Like, everything needs to
function in a specific way.
And that's not uncommon, but I think
the layer that I took it to, the
granularity that I stepped into is a
lot different than what most people do.
They kind of scratch that
surface level and then they're
like, "Okay, that's good enough.
Let's move on."
And it's like, okay, well, that
may be good enough for one to three
million dollars, but that's not gonna
carry you past three million dollars.
Once you get past that stage, you start
talking about a different maturity model
for your businesses that is needed.
Um, and therefore, your policies
have to evolve in some of that.
And so having some of those granular
policies and playbooks that say, "This
is what happens, when it happens,
and how it happens," has been the
biggest lifesaver of anything.
Because at the end of the day,
we're still a people business.
We still have people to support.
I still have people that call
up and say, "Hey, I wanna
talk to a tier two right now."
No automation in the world
is gonna fix or solve that.
They want a human.
By having really good finite documentation
and playbooks, it, it really helps figure
out, okay, where is everything running?
Good.
Everything runs great there.
Now let's take it in reverse and
look at what doesn't run great.
Let's look for the anomalies.
What sucks?
What's bad?
What's terrible?
Let's focus on that.
And so we shifted focus in
just saying, "Good is good.
We know good is good.
Let's look at bad."
And so our whole life for the last year
has just been living in what is the bad?
Where is the bad?
Where's the problem?
Where's the problem?
And it may not be something huge
like, oh, the house is on fire.
Sometimes it's like something stupid like,
oh yeah, our dispatching automation wasn't
kicking off, or something happened like
it wasn't tagging a ticket correctly.
Okay, let's go do this and this and this.
So as we start to build more stuff
on top of that, it kind of grew.
But without that base foundation, we
never would have gotten off the ground.
And that's pretty much the biggest
key component to everything.
It's evenâ¦
You can't dispatch
anything without a roadmap.
You gotta have a blueprint of
some-- or sorry, not dispatch.
Automate without some sort of
blueprint, some sort of document
that says, "This is what I'm building
and this is how I'm building it."
And if that doesn't exist in your
operations today, putting that automation
in and saying, "This is how it's gonna
work," isn't gonna fix that problem.
You're still gonna-- You're probably
gonna have more problems after you get
done with that that you don't know how
to fix because you implemented something
without knowing what the outcome is gonna
be Which is a huge part of anything, of
just what is the outcome of what we're
doing, what we're trying to accomplish.
And so we've kinda tried to keep that
mentality as we go through and build
all this stuff, but that foundation has
been always near and dear to my heart.
Uh, which is why, you know, when we
were talking a few years ago, I sent
you so many documents, and I'm like,
"Here, here, here's 1,000 documents."
I'm And you're probably like,
"Whoa, this guy's nuts."
Todd Kane: friends, Aaron, because
the I, I think this, this is an
unexpected answer, I would think.
Like, uh, like if anyone would
have guessed, like, what you
would say if I asked you that,
it wasn't good documentation and
procedural understanding, right?
Like, that's not the automatic
answer when people are like,
"How do you automate something?"
It's like, "Good documentation
to understand the process."
Like, wait, wait, where's
the cool techy stuff?
Also, I, I think that's an incredibly
important base layer, is what
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: actually trying to achieve?
What's the end goal, and how do
we actually achieve that and then
iterate the process internally?
Once you have a good process, then
you can automate it, and I think
that's where people kind of go
sideways on this, is they're trying
to automate a procedure that doesn't
really exist in the first place,
Aarin: Absolutely.
Todd Kane: it's good and
it produces a good result?
Like, uh, let's just keep
stabbing at it, basically, right?
Aarin: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've been fortunate enough to
where because we have gottenâ¦
I mean, when I came in, we were
taking in, I don't know, somewhere
around 100, 120 tickets a day.
Um, we've since now, we
take in maybe 20 a day.
Um, so the, the volume of
everything has gone down.
Some of it's also, like, just fixing
the business and getting everything into
where we want it to go and how we want
it to go, lining that up with what is our
vision and our EOS say that we wanna do,
where do we wanna go with all this stuff?
And then taking, you know, what Eric is,
is, you know, him being the visionary of
saying, "Hey, here's where I wanna go."
And then it's my job to kinda
say, "Okay, you know, I likeâ¦
You know, you gave me 1,000 ideas.
900 of them are great.
I'm gonna ignore this other 100 and
hope you don't kill me for them.
But let's go focus on these 900."
Um, and so you take all this
stuff and put it together.
Todd Kane: so yeah.
Aarin: It is.
It is.
Uh, it's also learning when to say no.
Todd Kane: Yes, yeah.
" Aarin: No, we can't do that today."
Todd Kane: but that, that's a
really important aspect as well.
Like, uh, the vision- the visionary
and integrator relationship is,
I think, too often integrators
are afraid to say no, right?
Uh, because they're like,
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: you know, that's
what the owner told me.
Like, I, I, I don't, I don't
necessarily own this place," right?
A lot of, uh, integrators and
operators are not necessarily owners.
They can be, but in a lar- large
majority, I don't think they are, and
that, that's a difficult dynamic of
being able to sort of politely and
professionally put back and push back
and say, "I hear what you're saying.
I, like, are you okay if I pick these
three and I'm gonna drop the rest?"
Right?
Aarin: All
Todd Kane: that feels like a
dangerous conversation when
it's entirely practical, right
Aarin: Well, it should be.
I think that's majority of
the problem across, acrossâ¦
You know, if we look at why can't an
MSP grow, it's, it's likely something to
do with something, somebody at the top
has hit a lid some way, shape, or form.
Like, they can't get out of their
own way to allow the company to grow.
That's why they say getting
off of owner-led sales is
the hardest thing to do.
It's, it's, it's a hard thing
to do, and I don't blame them.
I mean, from the visionary end,
it's like, this is their baby.
They built this bad boy.
This is everything to them.
Companies have to grow.
Companies have to be healthy, and
we always have to consider what
that, uh, that outcome is gonna be,
whether it's good or it's bad, no
matter what layer it comes from.
And, and I've been really lucky
that Eric's been a great, great
mentor, and he's been a great friend.
And, and it's kind of just we hear
each other when we're talking,
and we're going through all these
processes, and it's like, "Hey, what
do we actually wanna get through?
Like, get out of this."
And, and when we sit down and line
it out, we're pretty much identical.
And it got really scary because
we used to think so much alike
I wouldn't have to talk to him.
Um, and I feel like that's a really
great VI dynamic to be able to have
that sort of sync, but it doesn't
mean that we're always in sync.
There were definitely periods
where it was like, "Okay, hold on.
This or this or this."
Um, but as you get through those, some
of those, those things and start to work
through it, you get stronger as a, as a
dynamic, and you build something that's
really impenetrable when you look at
it from can something bring this down?
No, not if our dynamic
is actually working.
Because if it's working up
top, it'll work down below
Todd Kane: Yeah
I think this is a, an important aspect,
I agree, of like the professional dynamic
of being able to disagree professionally
and still align on we're trying to
achieve the same, the same thing.
We disagree on approach.
Let's kinda talk about that, and at
some point I may go, "You know what?
I don't necessarily disagree, but
I understand sort of why we're
making this decision, and we're
gonna run forward with this."
And I'm not gonna say,
"Hey, I told you so.
I told you this wasn't gonna work."
It's like, "Ugh, okay, we tried this.
Didn't work.
Like, let's go in a different direction.
That cool?
Cool."
Right?
Like, like I think people make massive
mountains out of molehills in all
of these subtle sort of disagreement
dynamics between, uh, a visionary and
an inter-integrator, when as far as I'm
concerned, like that's necessary, right?
Like I often joke, you've heard
me say this in meetings, is a
meeting without a little drama is
not a meeting worth having, right?
Like there has to be enough disagreement
for you to align on and push back and
have sort of the, the, uh, that subtle
disagreement, uh, on approach that there's
other people are heard, and there's other
dynamics and other voices in the room.
That's the point of, of those
discussions and having that
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: different perspective.
Because to your point, like if we
align on everything, we're, like
there's no point in having a meeting
Aarin: Nothing's gonna get done.
Todd Kane: yeah, like we all agree.
It's like, like, okay, we're
gonna talk about this thing.
Yeah, yeah, sounds good.
Okay, well, why are we here, right?
Like this absolutely could've
been an email, right?
Aarin: Yep.
Todd Kane: Yeah.
All right.
So
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: what, another piece I
wanted to, to hit on here is, uh,
sort of user-facing versus, um,
versus backend automations, right?
So, um, I'm curious to you, uh, how
you think about what the, the, the
backend automation, how, like how
much of what you do is just purely
underground plumbing mechanics,
uh, is, is invisible to everyone.
It does some fancy stuff and produces
something eventually for either an
end user or an internal, um, um,
uh, sort of member of the company.
And what I'm thinking about here
is like how does AI and automation
continue to show up for both the
end users as well as the internal
users within the company, right?
Like you mentioned the VCIOs, and
we're starting to see a lot more, uh,
automation, data collection, and AI
enablement for, for the VCIO group.
um, I'm struggling to wrap this
into a consolidated question, but I
think you know where I'm going here.
Aarin: Yeah, no, absolutely.
Todd Kane: th- the, yeah, the, uh,
the underground backend mechanics
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: user-facing interactions
with the automations and the AI.
What, what's, what's sort of
your take on that dynamic?
Aarin: No, this has been
actually pretty funny.
Funnily enough, been pretty, uh, hot
recently on the topic as we kinda go
through stuff of just client-facing
versus the plumbing, and I think it, it
kinda sparked off of, um, funny enough,
watching the Super Bowl and, and seeing
that almost every single ad was AI, and
by the end of it I just wanted to throw
up 'cause I'm just like, "I'm done.
I'm done with this.
I don't wannaâ¦
I-- Where's the funny
Budweiser commercials?"
Like, what happened to us?
Todd Kane: ads were pretty
funny though, like poking
Aarin: The,
Todd Kane: GPD
Aarin: it'sâ¦
That's about it, though.
Like, it's, it's everything
else was so fake.
And so as we started to go through, I
started to notice that, you know, what
is people's reception to AI gonna be?
Because, you know, my dad
is, is very, we'll say, uh,
stuck in 1950, we'll call it.
So he just got his first iPhone last year.
He's had a flip phone up until then.
Um, I mean, it's, it's
crazy how much he livesâ¦
Yeah, never- doesn't email,
doesn't computer, doesn't
believe any of that stuff.
I, I'm surprised he has a debit
card instead of just a checkbook.
So
Todd Kane: up to be such a nerd
coming from that lineage then?
Aarin: It's, uh, it's, it's, umâ¦
I was a wild child and,
um, yeah, I don't know.
I got really into it Well, I
started off in film, surprisingly
enough, and then when I got bored of
that, I was like, you know, I'mâ¦
My grandfather was really into
computers, so I think it kinda just was,
Todd Kane: Same
Aarin: just took over and just ended
up being one of those things to where
I realized I'm really good at it.
So, like, what am I doing?
Like, am I really gonna go make a
blockbuster hit in the middle of Oklahoma?
Probably not.
Um, so that just kinda
died on the vine there.
But, um,
Todd Kane: Or I derailed
Aarin: no.
Yeah, you derailed me.
Now I forgot where we
were going with all this.
Todd Kane: internal versus us-
Aarin: Yes.
Todd Kane: backend versus,
Aarin: So
Todd Kane: yeah
Aarin: yeah, it became like
this, this, this kind ofâ¦
When we were talking with our clients,
they started to get frustrated, and
they're like, "I don't like this AI."
And I'm like, "Well, what
about it don't you like?"
They're like, "I don't like
that it's talking to me."
And I'm like, "Iâ¦
Wait."
They're like, "Am Iâ¦
Is it talking to you, or is
it saying something wrong?
Like, explain this a little bit more
to me about what you're saying."
And they're like, "Well, it
just says some weird stuff."
And as we started to go through some of
the systems, we realized the AI had been
hallucinating and sending out random
public-facing notes just at random to
just random people about random things.
Uh, it didn't even have
to do with the ticket.
And I'm just like, "Okay,
that's concerning."
Um, so we kinda reshaped our strategy
and, and really the only time that AI hits
a client-facing ticket is that initial
triage bot and then a reminder bot.
All the other AI is, is
completely on the back end.
It faces either the techs or it just
functions on the back end autonomously.
We've tried to break away from just
shoving so much down our clients'
throats because we've learned
from past events like security.
And having gone through security
becoming a thing and a big push in
the industry, the more we shoved it
down people's throats, the more they
got frustrated, hated us, and left.
Um, I've got something like a 95% client
retention rate over the last two years.
Like, we've lost two clients
over the last two years.
Um, and those were clients that
had already left and came back and
left again, but it was all pricing.
And so it's, it's people
want to be treated fairly.
They don't wanna have a bunch of
stuff shoved down their throat.
They don't wanna be told
what to do all the time.
Like, it becomes a partnership.
And so I look at it in that regard of
just I don't wanna put any more AI down
their throats than they're able to handle.
Otherwise, they're just
gonna go somewhere else.
And the downfall of that is not everybody
in the MSP can or is implementing
AI in any capacity, and it's just as
easy, if not easier, to find a, a, an
MSP that doesn't do any of that stuff
than it is to find one that actually
is fully all into that at this point.
We haven't fully made that
swing or that adoption.
So it does play a huge factor of
just how much do I actually do and
how far do I actually take this?
But for my guys, I mean, we're all nerds.
We all joke about it.
Um, I've turned the AI off for
them when they've complained.
Um, and they're like, "Whoa,
bro, this is too much."
And then I get it.
Sometimes when it's like every 10
minutes and it's reminding you of
something or it's doing this, like
it could be a little distractive.
So we've learned to tune it
on the back end even as well.
But it's just kinda case by case
Todd Kane: Yeah
it can be quite overwhelming, right?
Like even when
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: I, I'm working on a project
with, with AI and like I'm asking it
for something and then it gives me
like just this massive mountain of
work to do and I'm like, know what?
Maybe this isn't that important to me,"
Aarin: That's why I
asked you to do this, AI.
Todd Kane: Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah.
Okay, um, other piece I
wanted to ask about this?
Um, uh, now I'm blanking out.
Oh, yes.
The, um, so the other aspect I, I
find fascinating and I'd love your
input on this, is, is, uh, voice AI.
and like I've seen a, a number of
companies experimenting with this
where like call answer is actually
done by AI and this is incredibly
polarizing for people, uh, for
the reason that you're noting.
Like some people are
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: "I, like, like
screw off with this AI thing.
I don't wanna talk to this.
Like give me a human."
but I can't figure out exactly what
it Is Originally I assumed it was
gonna be generational where like, you
know, sort of 50 plus type thing like
they don't wanna talk to an AI but
like the 20s like they don't e- they
don't wanna talk to a person, right?
So like maybe it was generational.
That is actually not the
split that I'm seeing.
I'm seeing it more on just sort of a
client base by client base difference
where I know this one organization they
went to completely no human interaction
with, you know, ticket ingestion, right?
Like tickets are submitted entirely
digitally, uh, either by the phone or
by, by email or, or chat and no humans
accept incoming tickets and I was like,
Aarin: Is this Xfinity?
Todd Kane: with this."
Aarin: Are we talking about Xfinity?
Todd Kane: No, no, no.
Well, yeah,
Aarin: not the internet provider.
It's definitely not Xfinity
Todd Kane: are, they are an, they are an
MSP, and they, they've had zero pushback.
Like they've had a few people that
are like, "Hey, what is this?"
Uh, like, "Is this legit?"
And like then they're like,
"Okay, cool, whatever," and they,
it's gone really well for them.
And I
Aarin: That's good
Todd Kane: nec-necessarily the case for
everybody so, uh, you know, I'm, I'm,
I'm sort of curious how this plays out
to your point of like we can't push this
on people that are not necessarily ready
for it and like we're barely getting
past the point of convincing some owners
that like live answer isn't as important
as they think it was or think it is.
You know, as, uh, like 10 years
ago you wanted live answer and they
can't get past the fact that like,
no if you call someone back within 10
minutes just as good but that's really
difficu-difficult to convince people.
So you know as AI starts to show up
in a lot of these other places in more
of a user-facing capacity I think it's
gonna be incredibly variable on how
successful It's gonna be for no parameters
that actually make a lot of sense.
What are your thoughts?
Aarin: It's easy to reduce
labor in that avenue.
I think you can make some
really good justifications,
like you said, client by client.
Um, you know, it's, it's
back to my Xfinity joke.
I mean, uh, it is something that, you
know, for myself personally, when I
call Comcast, which is a, a majorâ¦
One of the main internet providers
across the United States, there's like
three of them or something like that,
and then a bunch of other smaller ones.
But it's AI.
I, I get a bot every single time.
I have to jump through hoops to
try to get support, and I'm like,
"I just wanna talk aboutâ¦"
You know, maybe it's like my
speed is slow and I wanna upgrade.
Like, I wanna give you more
money and you're making me
jump through all these hoops.
So a- I think majority of America,
while they love the fact of AI, it
scares the hell out of them, and they're
not ready to just be a part of that
m- that, that wave, and we have to be
respectful of that and just, it's a
really cool nerdy tool, and all the
nerds are really geeking out about this.
But, you know, between the energy that
it, that it takes and, and the, the
cost, I mean, I was reading that it took
something like $192 million for them
to, to, to go from, um, what was it, 5.0
to 5.2
with ChatGPT.
So this is two hun- $200 million just
to make a small minor version update
to the product that didn't reallyâ¦
I mean, when 5.2
came out, I think, I think
my nine-year-old is smarter
than that thing at that point.
Uh, and then so then they kind
of freaked out and released 5.5
and, and now you have what you have.
But it is getting extremely
expensive and everything else.
How much smarter do we think we can get?
And that's the looking forward of just
saying if people don't tolerate it now,
and it's gonna take 20 more years to get
to where the, where we think it should
be today, and you're gonna drag people
th- they're gonna get numb to that.
They're gonna hate it even more.
And so it's kind of just been like
a very slow just integration in
that regard of just back to how
much do we let it talk to clients.
Very minimal because we
don't wanna burn them out.
We don't wanna scare them off.
We want them to be comfortable
with it, and we want to also as
their partner walk through this
A- AI journey as they have it.
And, and they're gonna have questions,
and we wanna, you know, be able to answer
them and help them, um, kind of get their
RPA in for their business or whatever
it may be that they wanna get done.
Uh, but it's also knowing the fad
of just, hey, we don't just go
all in in AI just because somebody
said, "Hey, AI is the future."
Um, it's, that's, that's craziest.
Todd Kane: Especially because like I'm
really curious how this shakes out,
especially over the next sort of two to
four years because, uh, I think we're
starting to see the recognition that
we're in the subsidized era of AI, right?
Like originally Uber, when it came out,
like you were-- you-- half of your Uber
ride was pay for- paid for by VC dollars.
we're sort of in the same era of AI where
like, people were panicking about like the
restriction changes for, for like Claude
all of a sudden like felt more expensive.
They got less token usage.
And part of that was just a simple
physical limitation of compute, right?
Like they had literally run out of compute
and had to s- find some way to save it.
And then, you know, uh, xAI to the rescue.
Since they have no clients, they were
able to fork off ev- all of their, their
Aarin: Imagine that.
Todd Kane: to, to Claude.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh, but, uh, I, I think, I think
it's dangerous to rely on this stuff
too much with the expectation that.
it might get a lot more
expensive in the future.
And then, you know,
Aarin: Yeah
Todd Kane: point of this is
not cheaper than humans, right?
Uh, but you know, it might become a
lot more expensive in The future as
the VC dollars start to sort of retract
from, from helping to subsidize this.
So, you know, um, you know, buyer beware
Aarin: thirds of the world of comedy
that's tied up in AI right now
, Todd Kane: Yeah,
Aarin: which is a dangerous game
Todd Kane: yeah, 'cause you, you
talked about like the cost of,
of, of forking to the new model.
Like I saw some of theâ¦
I, I think these are still estimates,
pretty good estimates, but, you know,
like for example, whatever the number
was, I'm, I'm pulling this out of my head.
It's, it was something to the effect of
like a quarterly or an annual loss, either
way, you know, pretty dramatic of like
negative $14 billion in EBITDA, right?
Like not a business, you know?
So
Aarin: No, it's not.
Todd Kane: Yeah.
Aarin: it just goes back to the whole
point of just what is the outcome of this?
The same thing with anything that
you're doing in the MSP, you're doing in
operations, you're doing in automations.
The most important factor is what
is the outcome of what you're doing?
And if it's absolutely not defined in
any way, shape, or form, then you're
really just selling people a pipe dream.
AI's the future, go buy it.
Like, yeah, okay, um,
Todd Kane: Or
Aarin: prove it.
Todd Kane: Yeah.
Aarin: For what?
Like,
Todd Kane: Yeah.
Yeah
Aarin: prove it.
Like, okay, cool.
I can, I can automatically categorize my
emails and I can do all this other stuff.
That's very limited.
I can't get AI to do my emails at all.
Like, it won't do it because it
doesn't know who my clients are,
what I want, what I do, what I like.
It takes me longer to tell it what I'm
doing, and I'm just like, "Screw it.
I'll do it myself."
Todd Kane: Yeah,
Aarin: so it's, it's just become
more of an augmentation of what is
the most boring stuff that we have
that costs us money in the industry?
How can we just focus on that?
And as the technology gets better, we look
at new ways as time goes on, but we're,
we're still very cautious to not just
go throw all our eggs into that basket.
Um, and I was even with a peer group
and he's like, "Hey, I was thinking
of just doing an AI business unit."
And I'm like, "Okay, well
that's, that's pretty cool.
Tell me about that."
And he's like, "All
they're gonna do is AI."
And I'm like, "Okay, so, um,
you're gonna build up this,
this million-dollar business?"
He's like, "Yeah."
And I'm like, "Okay, so if AI goes the
way the, uh, the World Wide Web did, and
we have a crash, what are you gonna do
when half your company's, uh, bankrupt?"
And he said, "Well, I
never thought of that."
And I'm like, "You gotta
think about stuff like this.
What is the outcome of
you having an only AI?
You have to mix it in with some RPA.
You have to have a little
bit of flavor in there."
Like, I've been preaching
that for a while.
RPA is the superior of the two right now
because it doesn't need a graphics card
to process, and it's not hallucinating
telling you, "Yes, I love you.
You're correct."
Todd Kane: Yeah.
But I suppose we could use some AI
models to help us build the RPA, you know
Aarin: You could do that, yes.
Prompt engineering, all that stuff.
But I mean, I guess it's how many bottles
of water do you wanna kill that day?
Todd Kane: Depends how
thirsty you are or how, how
Aarin: That's right.
Todd Kane: is.
Okay, cool.
This has been awesome, Aaron.
Um, I mean, we could jam all day, but, uh,
Aarin: Oh, absolutely
Todd Kane: we'll, we'll give you
some, some, uh, s- your day back here.
Uh, so it's been fun.
Appreciate your input,
Aarin: I appreciate it, Todd.
Todd Kane: uh, been a blast, man.
Thanks.
Aarin: Likewise