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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
Daria Burke (00:00):
People underestimate the ability to do bulk by sales, especially I think in probably fiction too to some degree, but I would say nonfiction. That's not prescriptive, traditional prescriptive, but that made a huge difference for me. I think that was the difference between becoming a bestseller and not becoming a bestseller.
Bethany Saltman (00:24):
Hi, I'm Bethany Saltman, a literary agent and
Fran Hauser (00:27):
Award-winning author. And I'm Fran Hauser, a bestselling author and independent bookstore owner. And this is the Bookbound podcast. On this podcast, we talk to women writers about their nonfiction
Bethany Saltman (00:39):
Books, but instead of talking about what their book is about, we focus on the process of getting their book into the world. These how I Did it, conversations
Fran Hauser (00:49):
Will help you pitch your big idea, write killer proposals, find the right agent and publisher, and live an amazing Bookbound life.
Bethany Saltman (01:03):
Daria Burke is a bestselling author, award-winning business leader and speaker. Her debut memoir Of My Own Making is a soulful and scientific exploration of overcoming adversity, healing from childhood trauma and rewriting one's own story. As a chief marketing officer, Daria was named a 2020 ad age woman to watch whose work has been recognized by Vogue, Forbes, women's Wear, daily Town and Country. And the Cut This conversation is really special because we don't just dive into Daria's author story, but we get to tap into her business savvy as well. She shares how she initially positioned and pitched the book to agents and editors, how she built a marketing plan that landed her book on the USA Today bestseller list and so much more. It's such a juicy conversation. You're really in for a treat. Hi, Daria, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Daria Burke (01:56):
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Bethany Saltman (01:58):
Yeah, we're really excited. So we'd like to start every episode with the same question, and that is how did you know that the experience you were going through, which in this case was your life, was more than an obsession or an interest or a path and a book? What made it a book as a thing?
Daria Burke (02:21):
There were two experiences that I had, one in isolation and then one sort of on a continuum in isolation. I think the first inkling was after I read The Glass Castle back in, gosh, it must've been 2011, I think when I first read it, and it wasn't the first memoir that I'd read, but it was the first time that I read a story that even though much of it was quite different from my own lived experience, there was this woman, this girl mostly in the story talking about the neglect and the abuse that she experienced at the hands of parents who were clearly to some degree mentally unstable. There were problems with addiction with her father and the drinking. And I saw myself in that. I saw an enlightened witness, I think in Jeanette Walls, that someone who could reflect back even if it was a broken reflection, but reflections of my own lived experience.
(03:26):
And I thought maybe one day it will matter that I can do this for somebody else too. And all of a while, as I had begun to share my story with people as an adult, it was largely a secret For many years I didn't talk about my childhood growing up in Detroit and having parents who were both addicted to drugs and struggled with substance abuse and the deep neglect and poverty that I grew up with. I didn't talk about that. And because I was living this New York City beauty marketing, quite sort of glamorous life, it didn't always have a place in conversations with people. And certainly I wasn't surrounded by people who would understand it, but when I did begin to share my story with people, inevitably the question I would get was, how did you know to do this? How did you become this person?
(04:20):
Sort of this image of someone, this version of a human being that doesn't align with the story you just told me? There's this disconnect. And so much of the book in a lot of ways is me answering that question. And so I think when I have the science and the language to articulate, I can always talk about what it meant to have an imagination for my life. I could always talk about the ways in which I felt drawn to possibility, and I think the ways in which I'm sort of wired for optimism, but to have science that could articulate that what we learn, we could unlearn, and that what we were born into doesn't have to be the final outcome. I could explain it beyond myself, and I think that's what I knew. I think this is the way I want to tell my story.
Fran Hauser (05:11):
So Dar, I heard you refer to the book as an offering, and I think that's just such a beautiful word to use in describing it because it's what the Glass castle did for you. This book will do for so many women. I'm just so happy that you wrote this book. It's a really important book and I would love to hear, I'm always so interested in hearing how you went from, okay, I think this is a book because now I've got the science and I have the language to, okay, what's the next step? Where did you start once you determined that yes, this is a book, what did you do next?
Daria Burke (05:53):
I love telling this story because at the time that I read The Glass Castle, I was about 30, so we're talking about 15 years ago at that time, went to lunch with the one person I knew in publishing and I just said, okay, I feel like I want to write a book about my life at some point, what does that mean? What does that look like? How does this work? She was at a literary agency, not an agent, but at an agency. And so she said, well, we rep fiction authors. And so this is how it works for fiction. You write the manuscript, you sell the story and the manuscript and nonfiction, you write the proposal and you sell that. I'm like, cool, cool, cool. I'm not ready. A decade goes by. So now I'm 40 and I wake up one day and I have this cosmic tap on the shoulder that says it's time.
(06:43):
So two days later, I'm on Zoom talking to someone from their nonfiction practice because they had merged with another agency in that span of a decade. And I'm telling them about a book that I have no idea what this book actually is because I'm just following the pig and I could only after sharing a bit about my childhood, describe it as educated meets Brene Brown. I knew I wanted the science with the story. It was kind of this idea of what we now have been calling Memoir Plus. And he says to me, oh, well, one of my executive editors just joined a few months ago. She worked with Brene on Daring Greatly, Ann Rising Strong when she was in-house as an editor. And so at that point I knew this was divine and I was just following the call, answering the call, and I meet her, no manuscript at all, so to speak up, I send it to Jess before the call.
(07:45):
We get on the call and she says, I want to work with you on your proposal on this, and I think you're going to write it. And I said, okay. So I bring her on, we work together and as we're papering the deal to work together, this literary agency is still helping me with everything. And I finally go, does this mean you're going to represent me? I'm like, well, yeah. Oh, great. So that's how I got my agent. So I spent probably a year in earnest working on the proposal, three rounds to nail it, the structure, the tone, my voice, the balance of science and story, all of that. It took about a year and then my agent went out with the proposal early 2023. I learned by leaping, I have found, and when I have the clarity to follow that intuition, I am served beautifully. So it's just unfolded in ways that I couldn't have possibly imagined had I tried to sit down and architect this perfect plan.
Bethany Saltman (08:54):
I love that. Learn by leaping. Thank you. That is so good. And it's something that everybody who's in the book writing process needs to understand that yes, you can architect, but there has to be a leap. This is after all a creative process and it's so important. I love what you laid out because there is some divine intervention there clearly, but it's also a really good description of how the book program works. The fact that it took you a year to do your proposal, that's great. Sometimes it takes longer. The proposal is not done until the proposal is done.
Daria Burke (09:33):
You're right. It's not done until it's done. And I did two sample chapters as well because as someone without a big platform and without a lot of writing cred, I wanted to be able to sell voice and really
Fran Hauser (09:47):
Have
Daria Burke (09:47):
Somebody say, oh no, she's good. We can do this with her.
Fran Hauser (09:52):
Especially for your first book proposal, right? It's important to have two chapters. I'm so curious, aria, the educated meets Brene Brown positioning. Was that in your final proposal?
Daria Burke (10:04):
We nodded to it, but the comps that we used were more reasonable and still quoting New York Times bestseller Times bestsellers, but here I am, I'm a black woman, I still have very different and unique experiences. I have a very different career than these women. And so we packaged it ultimately understanding that there is the person who loves memoir, who loves Ashley c Ford's, somebody's daughter, or maybe really loved Gabrielle Union's books, we're going to need more wine or more than enough. B, we Roth, but who also was interested in and or even the, I would say quasi cultural analysis that I'm trying to do in this book around how we choose who we become. And so the person who may have also really loved Invisible Childs by Andrea Elliot, and so we had comps that were absolutely bestsellers, but they were grounded in a little bit more than just the bigness of the idea.
Bethany Saltman (11:11):
Yeah, that's great. And I'm glad you asked that question, Fran, because as an agent and someone who's been working on proposals for a long time, everybody wants to do the Brene Brown meets educated, and that's a great combo. So I can see why that would get people's attention. But we always tell people, like you said, more reasonable use, more reasonable comps because we all want to be Brene Brown and we all want to write educated. That's great. I love the nod to it, and as a pitch, it's great because that's what's so important in a pitch. This meets that,
Daria Burke (11:45):
So
Bethany Saltman (11:45):
It helps people understand what we're talking about, but that's different than comps
Daria Burke (11:49):
And the marketing mind in me, I think it was just the easiest way anchor those very, very early conversations when it was kind of like, what book are you writing? And I was like, I don't know. It rhymes with, and that was enough to get people to go, okay, I'm tracking. But by the time we were putting it on the page and really talking about promoting what promotion looks like and who the audiences are, then yes, we got much more granular and specific and could paint a tableau of readers using a number of other books. Brilliant.
Fran Hauser (12:22):
I love it. Can you share a little bit about the three pitch meetings that you did with the editors? We don't talk about this often. I really wonder how did they feel for you? How did you prepare for them? Any kind of advice coming out of those meetings that you would give to our listeners who are in that moment, maybe their agent is pitching their proposals and they're going to be having these meetings soon. I'd love to hear a little bit about that.
Daria Burke (12:52):
Sure. Thank you for that. It's the first time I've actually talked about it too. Read your proposal. I think it sounds so silly, but because you've lived with it for so long, easy to think that it's all in there. I mean, same with my book. I saw notes on my book when I'm out talking about the book, read the Darn Thing again and again and again and be really familiar, especially with the sections that come, the promotion, the piece, the introduction, the positioning. Really have that nailed and have questions for them too, because you're also getting a chance to get to know them and what excites them. I mean, one of the questions that I asked for example, and it wasn't meant to be a gotcha, but I wanted to use it as an insight, was if they thought about the cover at all for this kind of book, would they envision me on the cover or would they envision other artwork? So have your questions. And I had questions about my writing. I wanted somebody who really liked my voice and it mattered that they could think about that. And so just also think of it really as an interview that goes both ways.
Bethany Saltman (14:03):
Yeah. What inspired the question about the
Daria Burke (14:05):
Cover? Well, having been a marketer in beauty and fashion for 20 years, I have learned that unfortunately a lot of times when you put a woman or person of color as the face of something, it gets niched down. And that's not bad. You still want your general audience to know and resonate with the artwork and the creative. And when you're selling foundation and skin tones matter, you've got to do that. That's a great exercise. But I'm also aware of what that can say to the air quote general market. And my book is not just for black women, it's not just for women. And so while it a very, I think feminine cover has the floral mode.
Bethany Saltman (14:54):
Beautiful.
Daria Burke (14:56):
Thank you so much. I love it so much. And so I knew that that would be to some degree, perhaps a barrier for some men. I was willing to take that risk, but it was important to me to have a publisher who could think strategically about positioning in ways.
Bethany Saltman (15:13):
That's such a great question. It's such a nice way of getting into something important about the publisher without asking directly.
Daria Burke (15:22):
Yeah. Then of course, and one person was basically like, I don't know. We're so far from that process, even that was insightful.
Bethany Saltman (15:31):
Hey there, Bookbound friends, if you're loving this interview, we've got something special for you. Our read like a writer book club is back, and we'd love for you to join us. This isn't your typical book club. Each month we'll gather on Zoom to study one of the books we'll talk about here on the podcast, not just what we liked, but how it's written and why it works. In other words, we'll help you read like a writer. So you can write and publish your own book. It's $179 for five monthly sessions. You'll get the book list related podcast episodes, a simple reading guide, and then meet to discuss. That's it. We're so excited to dive in with you because we love books, we love you, and we really love doing this amazing work with other women like you. Sign up today@bookboundpodcast.com slash club. We can't wait to see you there.
(16:24):
So you mentioned earlier the P word, the platform and that you didn't have a large platform air quotes. And so talk to us a little bit about how that was during the proposal process. And then the way we talk about platform is what you have to bring to the process before publication. And then marketing is how are you positioned to sell the book and how are you going to call upon your network? Of course, there's a big connection between your platform and your marketing reach. So as a marketer and as an author, tell us a little bit about how you understood that worked with it, how you're doing in the marketing. Now,
Daria Burke (17:04):
Oddly, despite my background, this was the hardest it was and continues to be the hardest for two reasons. One is that I have always done this on behalf of behind the scenes using tools, resources, and all the ideas and brain power to push a bigger something else forward, and I shouldn't even say bigger something else forward. And it's very easy to do that because you can be objective, and especially when you're in large organizations, you also just have tons of resources and you throw money at all your problems. And so platform for me was always this dirty word because number one, I was like, well, I don't know how to do that for myself. I am not a brand. I don't want to be called a personal brand. That is not how I live my life. I want to be able to use social media when I want to use it.
(18:05):
I want to randomly post about the random things that I want to post about when I do. And so I had to think a lot about what felt right in trying to build an audience or create an audience. But it came up every conversation during the pitch process or the proposal process. And so much of what I was able to really, I think sell in, I must have had maybe like 7,000 or so 7,500 followers on LinkedIn and was just launching a newsletter that really quickly amassed close to 6,000 followers subscribers. And that was great. And then I had, don't know, 4,000 maybe followers on Instagram. So not massive, not nothing, but not massive. But I had the weight of a lot of influential people
(18:54):
That I could say, look, I can get my book in the hands of people who will evangelize my book and story, who have audiences who listen to them, and it will be a yes. And so that was a big part of how I positioned my sort of platform really broadly, was the reach that I had across not just my own reach. And by the way, and you two know this, but dear listener, I can still tell you that tens of thousands of followers may not buy your book. There are other channels that ultimately still gave my book wings that I couldn't have, but it did help to prime it to be out there talking about it and some of these ideas, I think certainly. And then marketing, it was easier in the sense that we could really sit down with a plan and have an influencer strategy, a podcast strategy, a broader PR and publicity strategy, the gifting strategy and all of that we could really think about.
(20:03):
And even partnerships, I connected with the CMO bookshop.org. We have mutual friends. I mean, I was really calling on everybody in my network to think about how do we do this? And still there are things that I would've done differently using my blurbs to promote. I mean, all the things that you're taught to do, we did it, and sometimes it feels like it's never enough. So that's all part one. And then briefly, very briefly, part two, my issue is generally speaking, I am still working through being seen in this way. And so I'm working through that. And I think really sort of balancing the performative nature of social media and platforms in particular with my desire to just sit and write. So newsletters are great if you're inclined to crank them out. I'm a slow writer. So figuring out the cadence is also the other thing, giving yourself grace. I think there's also the pressure like, well, she was a cmo. Of course she's going to have this monster launch. And it's like maybe I won't know. And authors, we carry a lot on our own.
Fran Hauser (21:10):
Yeah, it's so interesting because you spent so many years marketing beauty products. Did you see any similarities between a beauty product and a book?
Daria Burke (21:21):
I think the emotional appeal to the degree that you can tap into someone else's need to feel seen or understood and inspired, I think is at the heart of all of this storytelling thing. No matter what you're telling stories about, and I hate that this is true, but my face is going to get more engagement when I post.
Bethany Saltman (21:48):
That's true for all of us.
Daria Burke (21:50):
People want to look at you and see you, and so beautiful graphics and beautiful covers and think they don't want to see that. I mean, people love the cover and they love the title, but at the end of the day, I post a picture of something with me doing something and then that's where the engagement comes in. So there has to be a link there too, I think in people just seeing the human experience manifest in some way, the
Fran Hauser (22:16):
Emotional connection, the human experience. So having said all of this though, the book made the USA today bestseller list, just Daria. That's amazing. Congratulations. It's incredible.
Daria Burke (22:31):
Thank you.
Fran Hauser (22:32):
I mean, if you had to say, and I know it's really hard to pinpoint and to unpack, but do you have a sense of what moved the needle from a book sales perspective? When you look at all of the different levers, the traditional media, the podcasts, the influencers amplifying the book, do you have a sense of what moved the needle?
Daria Burke (22:57):
I do three things that I think moved the needle. The first was NPR fresh air, no question number one driver, at least in the timing of it, because my interview dropped the week after P, so that was big. The second thing was I did a book conference early, like a festival early in my tour. And I would say the tour in general was a big deal and meeting people and getting out there, people, I think shun and poo poo the book tour because it can be expensive. But the truth of the matter is I covered geographic ground, and part of that was going to, I would say book festivals and events where you've got hundreds of people coming and the booksellers on site. And so this destination where folks are flocking really did make I think a big difference. But me being on tour in general made a difference. Obviously you've got to be strategic in that and think about where you're going. And so I went coast to coast and hit the middle of the country, and so I sort of very much mapped it. And then the third thing was bulk buys. People underestimate the ability to do bulk buy sales, especially I think in probably fiction too to some degree, but I would say nonfiction. That's not prescriptive, traditional prescriptive, but that made a huge difference for me. I think that was the difference between becoming a bestseller and not becoming a bestseller.
Bethany Saltman (24:32):
Wow. Congratulations.
Daria Burke (24:34):
Thank you.
Bethany Saltman (24:35):
What an amazing journey you've been on
Daria Burke (24:39):
And it's still going. I think that's, if I can offer one last thing, it just would really be in some ways, and this advice came from a good friend of mine, but when the book launches, those first maybe six months are very much about you introducing yourself in the book to the world, and you're in service of the ideas and the work that you put into the book. And to the extent that that lives on is really a function of your stamina, I think, and your interest in continuing to be engaged with what you've created. And so for me, it continues. I have events for the next three weekends, for example. Two of them are festivals. It's been wonderful to have a break, but also to be busy and getting to talk about this and to meet so many people and and I think when you really care about what you've created, it makes it a little bit easier to get to do that. And you'll find an audience. Books have a long shelf life, which is a wonderful thing. It's unlike so many things that you launch and sort of the launch period is kind of over. You can really talk about it unless it's very trend driven and very zeitgeisty. But beyond that, you can generally talk about it forever. And so I'm grateful for that.
Fran Hauser (25:58):
Yeah. My friend recently came out with a book and she was so upset because she wasn't seeing many reviews on Goodreads or Amazon. And I said to her, I'm like, well, it takes time for people to read the book. It takes time. And yes, you're going to get your inner circle and your family and friends to do those reviews for you in the beginning, but beyond that, it's going to be crickets for a little bit until people read, and then you're going to start seeing those reviews. Right, exactly. So it's a lot of patience,
Daria Burke (26:32):
And majority of my reviews still aren't friends and family. That's the other thing. Yeah. But I will say I'm much more shameless about asking for kind of anything now. And so I think my inner child who needed a lot of advocacy has learned to sort of do that. That's definitely some of my unfinished business that I'm doing for myself. It's been cool.
Fran Hauser (26:58):
Well, Daria, thank you so much. I love this conversation. I really enjoyed it so much. Your energy, your spirit, just everything about you. And thank you really for your generosity and sharing so much with us. Tell us, where can our listeners find you? Where can they connect with you?
Daria Burke (27:19):
Yes, at daria burke.com. D-A-R-I-A-B-U-R-K e.com. And on Instagram at Daria Burke. And you can follow me on LinkedIn too at Daria Burke.
Fran Hauser (27:30):
Amazing.
Daria Burke (27:31):
Thank you so much.
Fran Hauser (27:33):
Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and consider leaving a rating or review to help other writers find us. And don't forget to check out or read like a writer book club and our downloadable Bookbound proposal guide, both designed to support you as you bring your book idea to life. You can also find us on Instagram at bookbound podcast. Happy writing.