Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to THE home of Grand Canyon hiking. If it happens below the rim—from short day hikes to Rim2Rims and beyond—you'll learn all the tips and tricks to have your safest and most memorable Grand Canyon experience.
Host Brian Speciale brings you stories of triumph, tragedy, and trail-won wisdom—told by first-timers, seasoned vets, and Canyon insiders alike.
But don't just take our word for it; here's what our listeners say:
“I am continually inspired by the guests and the vulnerability of everyone to share their story—so others can learn and make their own.”
Whether you're planning Rim2Rim or just dreaming of hiking the Grand Canyon, this is the podcast that prepares you—mind, body, and spirit.
“An invaluable resource.”
"Brian and the community he has curated is such a welcoming place and wealth of information."
“It’s the perfect mix of inspiration, realistic caution, and tips for success.”
🎧 New episodes weekly
👣 Join the conversation in the hiKin Grand Canyon private group on Facebook
What was your reaction when you started to see Upper North
Adam:Definitely the the force of those debris flows. Those are the red flags for me. It's not gonna be a good place to be if you find yourself in the Upper North Kaibab and and you get an inch of rain.
Zeena:You're listening to the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show, the voice of Grand Canyon Hiking, presented by Hiken. Hiking packs and gear built to help you hike your best hike. Here's your guide, Brian Special.
Brian:Well, you're about to hear more than you ever have about how the North Kaibab Trail was affected by the Dragon Bravo fire. Just about everything you'll hear qualifies as news, from the damage to the threats to the short and long term future of one of the most iconic trails in the world. Adam Gibson is the trail supervisor for Grand Canyon National Park and will be the one overseeing the restoration of North Kaibab. He's also the only person I've spoken to who's actually been on the burn damaged upper portion of the trail and seen the damage for himself. Last Friday, I hiked down Bright Angel to meet up with Adam and his crew as they worked on a project in the Tapeats Narrows just below Havasupai Gardens.
Brian:So you're gonna hear plenty of construction noise in the background. But what you'll also hear is words of hope, renewal, caution, and especially uncertainty as Adam and the Park grapple with unprecedented challenges that affect rim to rim hiking and everything surrounding it. That all started with that fateful day last July when the world learned the North Rim was burning. This is the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude show powered by Hikin'. See our front access hiking packs designed specifically for Grand Canyon hiking at hikin.club.
Brian:That's hikin.club. What I can say
Adam:from my perspective is that I was kinda terrified, and I just wanted I wanted everybody up there to be getting out and getting around, and and evacuating safely, I was very happy to hear that that was the the case. But I was, you know, I I was I it it was it was very difficult. It was very difficult to hear because we had it's it's a small it's a small tight community, the Grand Canyon community, and it stretches out all over the local area here. But, you know, we we we knew people that were working that fire and the people that were up there. And so we were getting some we had an understanding of what was happening and that this fire was this had turned into a bit of a monster very quickly.
Adam:And, and there were some people trapped up there, and I was very worried about them. You know, some really just some incredibly, terrifying situations. So so I was thinking about them, and at the same time, was concerned about my own staff, and I was very happy to hear they had all safely, made it back to the South Rim. And one had had, fortunately already been out backpacking in some Utah wilderness at the time. So they were all accounted for.
Adam:I was very happy to hear that all employees, you know, both, MPS and concession, everyone had been accounted for, ultimately by the following day, and I was just very thankful. And, you know, at that time, I was had been aware of some of the extent of the damage, not everything, but we knew that it had been significant.
Brian:When we started to figure out what was, what was happening, I mean, it did happen so fast. There was an evacuation order. Next thing you know, the the lodge is gone. The fire's burned down North Kaibab. It's burned, much of the infrastructure on the North Rim.
Brian:In those days, do you do you kinda look back at that? Is, it's almost like surreal that it is that how you're feeling at the time?
Adam:Yeah. It was kinda hard to process. You know, it was I I couldn't make sense of it. It was it you know, especially when I had when I had gotten when I had seen some of the level of the devastation, it was pretty it was pretty tough. You know, I I've I've been up there.
Adam:A lot of the people I've got about 12 people in my life that I'm close friends with that I had met for the first time up on the North Rim, you know, working, you know, either after the season or during the season or doing the North Rim opener where we have a big push to get everything open up there. And, and I was thinking about just all the memories I've had up there and and, you know, and just some of these places. Going over the community room and and just sitting down and reading in an old library and some of the books I've read up there. Was thinking about that. A lot of the trees that I've watched for, you know, off and on for twenty years and and have, you know, enjoyed their their presence and being there with them.
Adam:And, yeah, knowing that a lot of those were taken out and gone. I mean, it was, you know, a lot of these facilities. It was tough. But then, ultimately, I was just so thankful that that everybody had gotten out. I might I really given what that fire what that turned into and how bad that could have really been up on that peninsula, and had been trapped.
Adam:You know, the fact that they had gotten out of there and everybody evacuated, I thought was just a a miracle. I thought it was just a big win. I was like, my god. They I'm I'm so very thankful that that was the case. You know?
Adam:I I I do recall the chimney tops fire in in in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park back in 2016. And when that went south overnight and went bad, that wasn't the case. There was a lot of people in the Gatlinburg community, a lot of structures, of course, you know, that did not all get out. They did not they were not all able to get out to safety, and it was a real tragic time. And I just I was going back to that and thinking about I'm like, could have been this could have been so very similar.
Adam:And I know it was very traumatizing for the people that had that were stuck over there and have and having to work it. And but still just very, thankful that that they were able to that we were able to get them back over safely.
Brian:And then things started to I mean, things just kept getting, you know, I get I guess you could say they were as bad as they were gonna get when the lodge burned down. But the fire just continued burning for a a long time after that that happened. And so much of the trail system on the North Room was just getting consumed, and we, of course, learned early on that, just by looking at the maps, the watch duty maps and things like that, that that the fire had burned down North Kaibab Trail all the way, essentially to the doorstep of Supai Tunnel, essentially, is what the what the the maps showed. So when you started to see that and how that was going to affect you as a trail supervisor of this park, what what did you what did your mind pivot to at that point?
Adam:Well, I knew I needed to get down and see it, you know, once it was in a state where it was relatively safe to do so. But I also knew that there's there's no need to rush right now. Right now, there's there's a there's a fire that needs to be fought and managed. But thinking about it, you know, I from my perspective, you know, the North Kaibab Trail, it it it is it is a beast of a trail, and it is it is just an absolute beast of a trail when all things are good. There are so many bridges.
Adam:They're all a little different. Those are complicated. There is tremendous or just huge west stone masonry walls that hold that trail together and hold the infrastructure of the pipeline. You know, it's it's complicated when all things are good. When you throw the dynamics of a wildfire and the impacts of that and the pair and depending on the severity of the burn, you know, just I have a pretty good grasp of that's just gonna make things a lot more complicated for us.
Adam:Right? You know, talking about the Roaring Springs Canyon, especially everything from Redwall Bridge and up to the trailhead, you know, that's that is a very active area.
Brian:Just Even in the best of years.
Adam:Even in the best of years. You know, the heavier the snowpack, the heavier the snowfall up on the North Rim, the more active that that area is. And, you know, that's really, particularly everything below Supite Tunnel, but even all the way up to the rim. You know, the free stall cycle, the constant, contraction and expansion, that causes a lot of, movement in in the rock and cause a lot of rock fall. The snow melt, you know, when the snow melt happens, it absolutely coupled with that freestyle cycle, that causes a lot of rock fall.
Adam:I've I assess it every year. I usually do at least one rim to rim, but usually do it a couple times, in mid to to late March, getting good eyes on that. And and for the most part, anything above Redwall Bridge, we're not really working on it, in February, in January, even through March. We're not really getting up there until kinda that April at the earliest is kinda typical. And even then, if it's a heavy enough snowpack, you know, I know it's I know it's gonna be probably not a good place to be.
Adam:So so I kinda come from this perspective of knowing that these are active zones for rock fall, that we have some problem spots with some of these springs that that that frequently take out some pretty large walls for us. And so no seeing that there was some pretty severe burn that that did get through there, You know, it's it's an area of my concern because I know that that vegetation a lot of that vegetation is a source of a lot of the stability of those steep slopes. You know, that I think people when they hike a trail, they focus on the trail, and they're not really always taking in that bird's eye point of view of their overall environment that they're in. But for that trail and managing it and and construction on it, you really gotta take that bird's eye view and see where you are in the landscape, right, from the perspective of that canyon. And, and so knowing that there was some severe burn through the cochlear needle layer, you know, definitely through the kaibab layer, I know that we have a pretty daunting task.
Adam:And and having assessed it seen some of the debris flows, they are they are very much a red flag to me.
Brian:And you just saw this recently?
Adam:Yeah. Even recently. Yeah. I was was down there just a couple weeks ago doing a rim to rim and checking everything out. You know, I'd there's a there's a corner that we call it's called Granny's Corner.
Adam:It's an it's a route that you can take to go through the, the Coconino layer. That's an area that that we're aware of. It's just below the bottom of the Coconino switchbacks at a turn and you you kind of enter the hermit shale layer. That's not normally an area that's problematic for us. But since the fires, I see that we have a a very significant debris flow that's that seems to come there, you know, whenever there's any kind of significant rain event.
Adam:To what extent the rain event has to be, I don't we don't quite know yet. But we do have rain gauges measuring up there. And when we when we're able to track those and identify those rain advance that are probably, you know, pretty heavy in a short time of period, short duration, it's pretty safe to say that that's the source of it. But what I've been able to see is that there's a lot of force in these debris flows, and they're taking out berms, and they're taking out trail structure and and and and infrastructure we have pretty easily. And and it's gonna take a pretty robust, a pretty heavy amount of construction work with some heavy stonework for us to be able to have the strength to withstand the debris flows that are gonna be coming through there, at least, you know, I I say for the next several years.
Adam:Because as it is now, it's it's taken out trail. It's it's tearing it up. It can be fixed, and we will fix it. But it's gonna be an area that's problematic. The the supine day use area, the supine tunnel day use area, it's that debris flow that's come through there, I I'm not sure.
Adam:I think it's been a couple of different ones that have come through there. But that day use area kinda sits in the Roaring Springs drainage. You know, we have the hitching rails there in that drainage, you know, and, the main hitch rail has been taken out from the reflows there. It's it's deposited a lot of pretty large boulders and a lot of ash and a lot of lot of just sand and woody material right there on that clean slab that is normally there next to the to the restroom. You know, that's now filled with about five or six feet thick of rock and ash and and and dirt, and it's it's clear that that moves with some significant force in those heavy, precipitation events.
Adam:So those are areas that are concerning to me and from the context of of managing a construction crew that will be spending, you know, to rebuild these, we'll be spending eight to nine to ten hours a day in these in this environment. Right? And, I did observe for quite a while and listen for and pay attention for rock fall just when things were when there was no no weather, no wind event. And I was happy to see that I wasn't really seeing any significant rock fall in those moments. That was not to say it's not possible, but but I wasn't able to track much of it.
Adam:And and so that that was a positive. But one thing that is clear to me is is when we do have rain events up there, that that that is gonna be a more hostile area than than we're really than users are gonna be used to. And there there are gonna be heightened levels of risk associated with using that trail moving forward, I think, for the next several years, than than they have been in years in years past. And and, and not there's no way that that all the hazards are gonna be able to mitigate, that everything is gonna be mitigated out there. It's just it's just not realistic.
Brian:What do you mean by that? By mitigated, you mean you can't get everything back to the way it was essentially?
Adam:No. It's it's time's gonna have to do that. Recovery is gonna have to do that. Right? I mean, ultimately, you know, the Coconino layer, it was it was pretty severely burned.
Adam:It's got a it's a pretty poor source of tread material for us. That's the soil. It's very sandy. It's, it's those sandy soils, they don't like rain anyway. They they it it doesn't really know what to do with rain when it happens.
Adam:It mostly starts running off pretty quickly. Now that that has been a pretty heavy burn has come through there in sections of it, you know, now it's a hydrophobic soil. That means it it it it's now been it's, it's now got a deposit on the surface of it. It makes it even you know, makes its disdain for rain exacerbated, you might say. It's so it's gonna flow, and the runoff's gonna be even more significant than it is in in normal circumstances.
Adam:And, and so those those are the sources of our problems for wall blowouts, for for rock falls. And in this case, it's gonna be the source of debris flows as well. And, and from what I can tell, you know, some of those debris flows, they definitely have in the heavier rain events. There's there's some pretty tremendous force up there, and it's gonna be a source of problems for us. I think, you know, we we've been fortunate, I think, in not having a very heavy having a pretty mild winter This you know, I think that's maybe one of the best things we could ask for given the the circumstances.
Adam:I've also seen some positive sign of some of that scrub oak regenerating. So I've been seeing I've been seeing them butt out and some sprouts coming. That's a real positive sign in my opinion. Knowing that that that species does put a lot into developing a strong root system, you know, that's gonna be one of the best things that could happen for us is for a robust spring and a strong sprout of that of that scrub oak and New Mexican locust to start stabilizing those slopes.
Zeena:If you're stopping every time you need fuel, you're hiking the hard way. Hike and Pax put what you need upfront with a front access harness and six built in pockets. That means your snacks, water, essentials are always within reach while you keep moving. Our rim to rim pack and Canyon Elite both carry 25 liters. The Canyon Elite gives you extra support with a hip belt.
Zeena:Hike your best hike at hikeand.club. That's hikin.club.
Brian:Welcome back. Much of the work Adam's crew was doing in the Narrows as we talked relates directly to what he thinks will need to be done on North Kaibab, especially on the switchbacks between Coconino Overlook and Supai Tunnel. That will mean reinforcement work with stone walls and stone footing called riprap, which can be mistaken for cobblestone. If you can picture the steps down South Kaibab right before Uwa Point, that's what riprap is like. But the work is slow and detailed, and perhaps a good example of the patience that will be required for the proper rebuilding of North Kaibab.
Adam:We're certainly gonna be putting a lot of effort into building stone walls and laying handlaid stone riprap through sections of the Coconino and and trying to harden that tread with a lot of this riprap because that's it's just such a strong, united front when you have all that connected with stone retaining walls and and bedrock and hand laid riprap. It's about the best thing we can do to set it up to be successful and to be able to withstand a lot of the future debris flow that's gonna be coming through there. But that is time consuming. You know, to put it to to share some context, you know, all the riprap work that's taken place on the South Kaibab Trail, you know, has really happened over the course of about a seven year period, dispersed, you know, between 2009 to 2012 and, again, from 2020 to 2022. So about a five year period.
Adam:But the you know, the riprap that they see, like, the Coconino layer, and you'll see some of the supine and some of the kayvab layer in those zone. Yeah. That took that's the combination of about five years of work with about two different construction crews working in tandem. That's that's the kind of time it takes to build that that level of construction. It takes a lot of time.
Adam:It's it's hard. It's hard work. And I I think that would be a pretty comparable comparison to really harden and get the cochineal switchbacks to the state that that I think they need to be to be able to withstand the impacts come from the Dragon Bravo fire and to be able to be set up for success, you know, for the use it's gonna be getting both from the hiker use and from the mule traffic. That's that's what it would take. And it's a real arduous time consuming hard process.
Adam:You know, shorter term, I think we can mitigate a lot of the hazards the way we typically do repairing stone walls, you know, clearing rock slides. You know, that that's gonna take longer than the previous years. And I think just one thing that that that we need to understand is that, you know, progress is gonna be slower than normal for us in in in the rehabilitation just because the area that there's there's an elevated level of risk, particularly in from my point of view for the construction worker because they're they're in these zones, you know, for nine to ten hours a day. Right? And so, you know, we're gonna have standards of safety in place to ensure that that we're not putting workers we're not we're not exposing them to more risk than we should be.
Adam:Right? Such as putting them in, you know, down there working on the trail during a monsoon. Right? Something that we, quite frankly, do all the time, but we're not gonna be doing it so much in that situation just because the risk is higher. Right?
Adam:And, you know, and and so we're gonna be managing that. We typically stay out of that Roaring Springs Canyon area, and we don't have people roped up, you know, working in harnesses and setting up rigging operations, rebuilding walls, you know, above above Redwall Bridge, you know, in mid or or or late March because of because of that concern with the free stall cycle and the snow runoff snow melt runoff. Right? And that's a standard that that that I intend to to maintain even in this instance because it's I know it works, and I know it makes a big difference. You know?
Adam:So we're really gonna be, you know, we're working on North Kaibab now, but we're we're working in lower portions of the North Kaibab. Right? We're working, we're we're doing bridge maintenance because, you know, there was a lot of bridge maintenance that's needed, going through the box. We're covering exposed pipeline. We're we're we're clearing rock slides.
Adam:You know, we're doing what we can. But as far as being up above, like, where the fire impact is is that took place, you know, it's we're not planning to be there earlier even with this mild, milder winter, because of those elevated levels of risk.
Brian:So when do you think the first time that you'll be able to get to that section will be the burn section?
Adam:We're hoping that that we're really in there working, you know, kind of in that April 8 to to mid April time frame. You know, ideally with a couple of crews is what we're aiming for.
Brian:So it won't be an all hands on deck thing necessarily. We have to contract some of this work out?
Adam:We're not planning on contracting, in this workout. That's you know, it it takes a tremendous amount of work to manage a contract, a construction contract, and this this we don't have the bandwidth for us to be able to manage a construction contract on top of running a crew that has day to day operations and has multiple projects going on. No. I yeah. You know, really what we're looking at with the with the hiring constraints that we have, right, we have some vacancies.
Adam:We've had some people leave that were some of our some of our top skilled crew leads and talent that, you know, have have moved on from this administration, this year. And and and those, unfortunately, are unable to backfill. And seasonal hiring is is the same challenge as it is every year in the summertime as all national parks are competing for really the same relatively small workforce of trail builders and trail workers that wanna do it. Right? And so so we're hiring.
Adam:We're doing as hire as much as we can. But, realistically, we're looking at having about three crews, working there that are employed by Grand Canyon. We are in planning we are coordinating with with Saguaro National Park to try to get a crew up here as well to help support us there for a few months, you know, to the extent that funds can support. And we're even pursuing coordinating with the Ancestral Lands Conservation Corps to bring on a few in, IP interns is what they're referred to to really just kinda work with us and join us as a trail crew worker. Right?
Adam:And and to so so we're trying to I think we're maximizing our resources, and the bulk of our resources will be focused on the North Rim this year and really for the next several years, I would say. But we still have things and obligations and operations we have to maintain day to day all over the park, right, based off the South Rim compost operate, you know, compost toilet cleaning, NPS, mule packing services. We got work orders and and things we gotta respond to from the South Room on the Bright Angel and South Cobbass. So we always have to have a presence, over on that side as well, anyway. But, yeah, absolutely, the bulk of our resources are are in the planning of being up there.
Adam:But, you know, for us, I just I think it's important to know that there's a lot to do. There's a lot of work to do, and and we're gonna work on it. We're gonna work hard like we do all the time. But we're gonna do it smart. We're gonna be intelligent about it, and we're gonna do it as safely as we can, and manage the risk that we can manage, to the extent that we can.
Brian:I think it's great, and I'm grateful for it that the Parks' stance has essentially been that they're making this a priority. It's Yeah. It's it's clear from everything that they've said that this is gonna be a priority. Rim to rim hiking is a big deal in the Grand Canyon. Yeah.
Brian:There are a lot of businesses even I mean, I like to say even mine.
Adam:Yeah.
Brian:Is reliant on rim to rim hiking. That's what people come to the podcast for. They come to our Facebook community for Mhmm. Is for rim to rim hiking. And then there are, of course, Trans Canyon Shuttle, Jacob Lake Inn, Kaibab Lodge.
Brian:So many businesses rely on rim trim hiking, so I'm grateful that the park is clearly making it a priority to get North Kaibab open sooner rather than later. But at the same time, when they say that, you know, we're aiming for May 15 to start opening the North Rim, and I think hikers would look at that and be like, well, that means North Kaibab is gonna be open on May 15. Right? And there's a lot of hope for that. Just open it.
Brian:Let us deal with it. Right? We'll we'll deal with the the hazards. What is the realistic timeline for North Kaibab to be reopened? Well
Adam:Realistic. Ultimately, the the decision to close or reopen a trail is ultimately, you know, at at the that's that's the responsibility of the superintendent. You know? And that's and that's a pretty common standard at most national parks. And so it's it's really at that level to to make that determination.
Adam:And so I, you know, I won't speak I won't speak for his you know, for for everything he's have having a balance and everything that he's seen from his seat. You know, he's getting he's getting an even bigger picture of everything. So that's ultimately gonna be his decision. And and and and our we have a superintendent that is is very good at taking in all the information from all the sources and getting all the data he needs to to make the best decision he he can he can do. And he's also decisive, which is which is a great thing.
Adam:What I can say, from my perspective and from managing construction crews is is is we you know, if the park was to decide to open in in mid May, you know, from a a point of view of construction work management, you know, we're gonna still be working on that trail. Right? That's that that's a that's a certainty. Like like, I we're gonna be working on it through April. Gonna be working on it through May.
Adam:We're gonna be working on it all through the season. We are a trail crew program that is very much like we a tremendous amount of experience in doing construction work on open trails where we have visitors, mules coming through. I can say very safely, as with some certainty that that that trail will not be mule passable, probably not this season. You know, we'll I think we'll try to get mules for pack support to the to the extent that we can. But probably for the bulk most of the season, it probably won't be mule passable.
Adam:If it if if it if we get it to that point, maybe later in the year. It'd late in the year. Hiker pass you know, for a hiker to pass through, it's it's a little bit of a different it's a different context. A hiker can you know, I mean, depending on their skill set, I mean, they can hike. I think about the Royal Arch Loop.
Adam:Right? That's that's not really a it's not even much of a trail at all. It's just a route. But yet a hiker can can navigate that route safely and effectively. In the current situation, you know, we have retaining walls that are out.
Adam:You know, we have rock falls that are there, on the trail and they have taken out walls. And so so we have quite a bit of work to do. We have quite a bit of construction work that we gotta do to to be able to divert these debris flows off trail to keep them from doing further damage. Otherwise, you know, the the repairs we make the repairs we make will they'll just come back. It'll happen again.
Adam:So, realistically, you know, it's it's probably not me to to make that determine on me to make that determination. But what I can what I can say is is whenever the park does decide to open it, there will be the presence of several construction crews on the North Kaibab continue to to do work. And so, you know, there will be temporary closures even on a day to day basis on the daily, where people are having to wait while we have rigging operations and fall protection systems set up. You know, even if they were to open it, that's that's gonna be something that the hikers gonna have to face.
Brian:You know, North Kaibab is a corridor trail. Mhmm. And corridor trails, that's not just a a moniker. That is a classification in the National Park Service. So it doesn't North Kaibab have to be up to a certain standard, which is I think the highest possible standard for for a trail for the public to be able to pass safely before it can reopen?
Adam:Yeah. I mean, I can say with certainty, we're not gonna have it to the same to that same high standard that people are have come to expect on the North Kaibab. Very, very, very easy to hike through, very easy to pass through. It's not gonna be quite to that extent by mid May 15. I can I can say that pretty, you know, I think fairly and honestly?
Adam:But with that said, you know, there will be sections that it will be narrow. Right? Like, the trail itself might only be a couple feet wide, but technically, it's still passable by a hiker. Right? It it is possible.
Adam:And so I think that's that's something the hikers are gonna encounter. You know, we still have some winter ongoing, and and we also have the spring season and monsoon ahead of us. That that could very quickly change to where there's more catastrophic failure, right, where we have there's some very large walls on the North Kaibab. If people recall in 2023, we had about 25 retaining walls, fail on us in between rock slides and and freestall cycles and and snow melt. You know?
Adam:And that really ultimately took us a couple years, over a couple of different, seasons to be able to get all those repaired. You know, we had one that was about 30 feet wide by about 18 feet high. You know, it took it took a couple months to build that wall. I I am happy to say that there's only one wall that's about that size that I see down currently, and it's actually more in the box, and we're able to bench in and and get that more passable. So so that's that's a bright side, but we still do have we have quite a few walls that are down.
Adam:It's about 10, across that across that trail that are out that we already know we have we have to rebuild. And there's there's a number of rock slides and Rock Falls we could deal with as well. As far as taking in all those factors and taking into consideration, you know, what the users are wanting, you know, that's that's really gonna be a decision of for senior management, and and I and I will respect their decision. And, ultimately, whatever they do, and whenever they do decide to open it, there will be that presence of our trail crew down there. And I think, you know, it's important that people realize that they're gonna be seeing that through this season and likely to the next seasons as well.
Brian:Based on what you said about, you know, even having your crews in there during monsoon season, you said you wouldn't. Mhmm. So, I mean, that's another, factor that has to be considered is just
Brian:Mhmm.
Brian:The times that people can can hike. You know? Yeah. Even if it if it's reopened, if it's gonna be dangerous for the foreseeable future for your cruise to be in there, obviously, hikers can't be in there at the at the same time. So that's another thing that's gonna have to be managed.
Adam:Well, yeah, it gets pretty complicated. Right? I think I think managing a park and and managing all the different needs and uses are are are challenging. Right? I I do think that that Grand Canyon has done a great job at developing some alert systems.
Adam:I know our hydrologists have been working hard, to develop an evacuation plan for the, for the box area of the Lower North Kaibab and and and for the Phantom Ranch area and and have put have been putting that into place with a ready, set, go. I know that they're also in in in the works on doing something similar on the Upper North Kyabab, and I and I've been working with them with a lot of our science and resource managers to develop something that we can use from the perspective of construction workers. Right? Being there, what level do we need to what what information do we need to have to attain certain parameters to know that, hey. Today is a go day.
Adam:We you know, probability things are gonna be good for us today in all probability. And at what point do we have to you know, what are the parameters that we need to establish to say today is is gonna be a no go day? You know? And I think certain precipitation events at a certain level are gonna really just be kind of a hard no for us. You know?
Adam:And we'll be taking in factors. They've they've set rain gauges up at the at the head of the Bright Angel Canyon, you know, up there towards Point Imperial Road. They also had the information on on Bright Angel Creek, and and and all that. They've all they've had rain gauges at Phantom Ridge for a while. But just taking in, they have several rain gauges now to where we can monitor the precip and the flood risk, the flash flood risk.
Adam:I think those have been some real positive gains, and they have they have coordinated with USGS to have these alert systems in place to where people can download it and and get these and become I think becoming familiar with those evacuation plans are gonna be important. But from my perspective, you know, it's ultimately, it's not my decision on how to how to manage the the visitor use of of of these trails. Right? And so, but I've got I've got, you know, faith full faith in in our, visitor and resource protection and our science resource managers working with the superintendent's office to be able to develop informative a robust campaign to inform hikers and users that wanna use this facility that there will be additional elevated risk associated with using the North Kaibab, you know, for particularly the the flash flood risk in the lower sections and and and the debris flow and rock fall in the upper reaches of the North Kaibab. That's that's really the extent you know, that that's about the best we can do to to give people the the the best information they need to make the choices they wanna make on whether to to use these resources or not.
Adam:And, ultimately, you know, the individual's responsibility, it it it is it is on them. But we do try to can I think the park does a great job of trying to educate them as best we can and to try to control the variables as best we can?
Brian:I mean, just what is best and worst case? Might we be without North Kaibab, at least Upper North Kaibab for the entirety of, of this coming season?
Adam:That kind of depends. Right? Like, we we still have we still have a winter to get through here. Yeah. Right?
Adam:If we were to get some heavy snows and maybe have and and have some heavy or early spring heavy rains come in on top of a of a decent snowpack, then that could be pretty problematic. That could be real problematic and could cause some pretty pretty significant damage on that trail pretty quick. You know, I think there's also the possibility that the trail is opened earlier in the season, and we're doing construction work on it. But then we have some significant monsoon event that then just hammers the Upper North Kaibab or it just flash floods significantly. And and, you know, and there's a lot of infrastructure in that box and and in the Phantom Ranch area that North Kaibab travels.
Adam:You know, those are scenarios that that are real, that could happen, that could that we're fortunate, I think, that hasn't happened at this point, and I'm gonna hope that that remains the same, remains to be the case. Ideally, in my ideal situation, we would have nothing but nice, light, little drizzles. Right? But we all know that that's not the reality of it. And so so those are those are real possibilities, and I think the park will adjust and and adapt, to those changing situations as they come.
Adam:But right now, you know, it is possible for the North Kaibab to be open in to users, at a at a at a decent time frame this year. May maybe it's not May 15. You know, that might be a bit early considering some of the construction we need to do. But it it's it's a goal. It's not entirely an achievable goal either.
Adam:It's, if we continue to have a very mild winter and we understand people understand that that the conditions up there are gonna be quite different. There there are gonna be additional risk. There are gonna be a lot less services available up there, but kinda take more of a, you know, backcountry user wilderness frame of mind. It is possible for that type of user to to be able to get up and navigate through the North Kaibab. You know?
Brian:When you got over there a couple weeks ago, which would have been mid February, you said you did a did rim to rim to go over there and and check it out and get boots on the ground. I I imagine you had to be pretty intrigued on your way over there to see, as a trail guy to see what, what what the what the damage was, what the future looked like. What surprised you the most when you got over there, or did anything surprise you? Just what was your reaction when you started to see Upper North Kaibab?
Adam:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely the the force of the of those debris flows. What those are the things that are those are the red flags for me. And knowing that those are happening in the rain events, it's gonna be import it's not gonna be a good place to be, if you find yourself in the Upper North Kaibab and and you get an inch of rain in an hour.
Brian:And by force, you mean just the amount of debris that's just pushed across the the trail and down the slope?
Adam:The strength of it. Yeah. Right? The momentum of it. So, like, the the one at Supai Tunnel, it's clear to me that, know, that's really where the Roaring Springs drainage comes together proper in that little basin.
Adam:And it it it was clear to me that that that those those debris flows, you know, at least one. It looks like there's been a couple through there. But one in particular that the momentum of that wasn't necessarily falling where the water would have traveled naturally. Right? It was just going where its own momentum took it.
Adam:So it was taken out stone structures, steps, whatever it wanted to. You know, if it it it got pretty close to the restroom facility, but, fortunately, it didn't take that out, but it would have very easily taken that out, had it been in its in its path. You know, that that to me is a red flag because I've never seen that at that location. I've never seen that's really not a a location that we're real concerned about with heavy flows, with with with heavy debris flows, heavy rock fall. But that that was that was a bit of an eye opener, for me for sure.
Adam:And, it's the kind of thing I'm like, yeah. We're I mean, that's gonna be an issue that we gotta deal with. It's also pretty clear to see, that there's a there's been a a clear channel carved. If you stand on Redwall Bridge, you look up and down Canyon, you know, you can see that there's been some force through there. It has cleared out a lot of large boulders that used to be there, and it has pushed a lot of very large boulders to the side, as it was carved in its path.
Adam:And so it that's it's clear to me that there that there's some force behind the these events. And, you know, I think when all when the weather's good and it's a nice sunny day and even there's not even like a you know, if it's just a good day, you know, you still can't mitigate all the all the risk associated with hiking up up there, but they are they are far less. It's it's when you have those heavy you know, when you have rain events and and to what level those need to be are hard to say. But, typically, if you have a heavy rain in a short duration, those those are kind of the worst case scenarios. Those those are gonna be a not a good place to be, and, I would generally recommend trying to plan your trip to where you are not there.
Adam:And it also comes with with, you know, the flash flood risk in the lower portions of North Kaibab because of those of the the narrow tight canyon that the box is. Right? And how much of the Bright Angel Canyon watershed that has been impacted by the Dragon Bravo fire. It's it's gonna be an issue that that until we really see a heavy monsoon happen, a heavy rain cell hover over those canyons and over those watersheds, we're just not gonna be able to know fully until we see it, until it happens. Right?
Adam:And I think we've done as this park's done a pretty good job to plan and to anticipate for that and to and to get the data and the science in in for it to where they can monitor it and and set themselves up into a place to where they can adapt and adjust the plan as they need to as they take this information, all while trying to strike the balance of keeping trying to keep parks open and accessible to the public to the extent that we can. And I think that messaging from, superintendent Keeble is is a pretty I I think it's a pretty fair message to say we'll open what we can, where we can, when we can, and just knowing that the park's also gonna be taking all this information into account and adapting as they need to as things develop and as things occur.
Brian:Let's say that it can't it can't open above Redwall Bridge, let's say, because that's where the problem area obviously is from Redwall Bridge, that area, on up. Do you see a scenario where it could open to Redwall Bridge or maybe to Manzanita? Because those areas would not seem to be as affected by the runoff or the the burn scars.
Adam:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's I think that's that's a possibility. You know, that that that's what ultimately the, you know, the park's done that before.
Adam:They've had closures. We even a couple years ago, we had it opened up to Cottonwood, which is pretty close to Manzanita. Eventually, it was expanded to be opened up to even Manzanita. And and that's a real scenario, and that might be something that the park ultimately decides to do. And, you I think that's very much in the realm of possibility.
Adam:And it and it and that wouldn't be a poor decision. But, again, you know, folks at at a higher grade than me are gonna have to be the ones that make that make that decision. And I think that they have a good team here to at least give them as much data and and information as they can to maybe make the the best decision and what and what is best considering everything that needs to be considered.
Brian:I know this might be outside of your area, but, you know, we talk about that area, the eye of the needle through the red wall. And while the the the fire did not burn down that far, we know that it did burn right above that area because Roaring Springs is is essentially in line with where the Grand Canyon Lodge was. So we know there's burn scar just above that. Would you see would there be any risk of of rock fall or anything from above that would threaten those areas as well?
Adam:Yeah. It's something I've I've I've been keeping an eye You know? I know it burned out there even up to the to the Bright Angel Point and in those areas. And and, yeah, the the the that that could be possible. If there was if there was some heavy rain in those areas that that could trigger some debris flows and then some rock fall, and and that could be a possibility.
Adam:I haven't I I'm happy to say in that red wall traverse that, it's really not there. There's there's a couple of there's some rock fall. There's one area that did get taken out by a by a rock fall and took out a little retaining wall. But for the most part, it's actually looking pretty good. It's looking better than in years past, you know, than when we have, like, a heavy snowpack and we and we have the formation of those.
Adam:There's some very beautiful ice waterfalls that'll form, in that area in certain areas that are quite remarkable. We can also be the source of a lot of trail destruction, and, and I was happy to see that that none of that was happening at least. And I and I was pleasantly surprised to see the condition of the North Kaibab below Redwall Bridge given that it did burn above there.
Brian:So what's next? We're sitting here in February. The park has said officially that an assessment won't be done until March or April, but it sounds like, you know, you've been over there. Maybe it's not an official assessment. So what is next?
Brian:Is an official assessment next and you have to present that to management? What what happens from here?
Adam:Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm presenting this information. I'm working with them, you know, in real time. Right? And and, yeah, I think that there'll there'll probably be one or two presentations or at least meetings where we're all I'm sitting with the Park leadership team and with my chain of command.
Adam:And and we're we're looking at what I'm recommending, and and and they're taking that into account with the other recommendations that they're seeing from some other divisions. And they're gonna have to ultimately reach that decision. You know? That's that's that's gonna sit on them. That's that's happening now.
Adam:I mean, it's it's not you know, all these things are being taken into consider now. These kind of conversations are happening now. It's it's a process. Right? Because we gotta figure it out.
Adam:We gotta run a park, keep things open as we have now, but we also got a plan for, like, how we're gonna rebuild this. And I think they're doing a pretty good job at at looking at the long term plan on the recovery of the North Rim, and, the North Kuyab is an important component of that. I do think that there there's a little bit of truth and that's seeing the threats perhaps that that I'm able to observe or expect just from my experience and and years of doing this kind of work and seeing it. You know, some of the threats aren't as easy to perceive in a place like the North Kaibab as as you might say in a place like like the Ken Patrick Trail, the Uncle Jim Trail, where there was some pretty severe burn, and it just took out a bunch of trees, old growth and and all. And in those types of situations, you know, when you see a five or six acre area just taken out by a wildland fire and and you have a whole bunch of hazard trees, it's pretty easy to see that that's a threat.
Adam:Right? It can be a little bit more hard to spot if that threat is is not as obvious. I think and I think the North Kaibab can present itself as a little bit less obvious. Right? And that's that's part of my job is to kind of help them, you know, paint that mosaic and see the overall picture.
Adam:You know? I do and I got I I think I've got some great colleagues that I work with with my chain of command with the, the division chiefs of FMD and and with, the division chiefs of, science and resource management and and some of the experience of our backcountry rangers. I think all I think there's a pretty good collective team here to, you know, be comfortable and experienced enough to be canned with management and ultimately present them with what we think is the the best decision moving forward. And, and then respectfully stepping back and letting them make that decision. You know?
Brian:Do you ever look at this, as I don't know, man. This is kind of like legacy territory that you're about to enter into. I mean, the Dragon Bravo fire is something that will live in history forever, as it pertains to the Grand Canyon, and now you're on the doorstep here of making a huge impact on getting an iconic piece of the Grand Canyon reopened. This I mean, this might be something you tell your grandkids about thirty years from now. You ever think of it that way?
Brian:I doubt it. That might have been a little too deep, but but I that's that's how I feel, man.
Adam:Sure. Sure. I mean, I I I think that's part of that pride. You know? Yeah.
Adam:These guys take pride in their work, And that's that's one of the things they like to today. Like, I'll take my kids down here and show them, hey. I built this wall. We we built this trail right here. You know?
Adam:Yeah. That's that that's there's a lot of pride in that. I also see a pretty daunting task. I think it's gonna be, you know again, we talked about that earlier how, like like, a lot of what I'm thinking about is is, hey. Let's get the construction work.
Adam:Let's do it let's do it well, and let's let's hit that right balance, that that we're trying to manage the risk and keep it as safe as possible for these construction workers, you know, as well as the users. Right? But my focus is is heavily towards the, the construction workers as well. And so that's that's that's a pretty daunting task when I when I look at it for the next several years. I I I think we're gonna be on the North Kaibab for the next several years easily and, and trying to to really build it up to the standard we wanna see for long term recovery and for long term use.
Adam:And I think it's gonna be a lot of that heavy stonework that you've been hearing in the background here at this construction site. It's gonna be comparable to what's already there. There's actually quite a bit of riprap already there that's been well done from years past, and, and and comparable to what we see on the South Kaibab. That's that's really the kind of fix I see is that's gonna be needed through the cochineal switchbacks. And, you know, I think the longer term inconvenience is probably gonna be the need to have a little bit lesser presence of of mule a little bit less of mule ride presence during that construction, to be able to effectively achieve that.
Adam:You know? Because if you have too much mule traffic, that that's we have to shore up the trail a lot more safely, a lot more robustly, you might say, than we do for a hiker to pass safely. For a mule train to pass through, we gotta make sure everything's really dialed in, everything's really cleaned up and perfect and shored up for them to be able to get through there safely. So, you know, that that slows things down quite a bit if you gotta do that five or six or seven times a day. You know, longer term, that's I see that as an impact.
Adam:But, I mean, you know, long term, I definitely see the the North Carolina reaching a play a place to where it's, you know, the people and the users of that place adapt to it, and they understand some of the new challenging environments environment that is that it is. But I do see a trail that they're gonna be able to use and and rely upon. And I do see a lot of those threats and hazards reducing over time. The more time you know, more we have more winters we have, the more rains we have, a lot of that stuff will help will hopefully settle and will will reduce that debris flow. And, again, that real positive sign, did see of some of that scrub oak starting to sprout up.
Adam:That was that was a real promising thing I've seen that I hope is, just is a wonderfully robust, healthy spring sprout this coming spring.
Brian:Last thing. We'll take out the crystal ball one last time here, Adam, and then then then we'll be on our way. We're sitting here in this exact same spot one year from today. What are we talking about?
Adam:Yeah. It will be a success from my perspective if if we have fixed and protected and set up that trail to the best of our abilities to be able to withstand some of the impacts that are gonna that it's gonna be facing for the foreseeable future, and we have done it, you know, to a well to a good quality standard that can withstand it and that we have kept the people that built it safe, and they're going back to their families safe and sound at the end of every hitch, at the end of every tour. That'll be a big win for me.
Brian:Beautifully said. You're a great leader. We appreciate your time. And just on behalf of the Grand Canyon hiking community and our community, we are so grateful for you and for your crew and for all the unseen hard work that goes into maintaining this place and building this place and keeping this place, one of the seven natural wonders of the world for all of us to enjoy. So your pride is evident in what you do and, just please know that, that we're all grateful for you.
Adam:Well, thank you very much, Brian. Appreciate that.
Brian:That was Adam Gibson, trail supervisor for Grand Canyon National Park. That was actually the second half of our conversation. We spent the first hour talking about his background and life on the Grand Canyon Trail crew, and we will have that as a part two next week. I am certain that you will love it. Alright.
Brian:Let's break down what we just heard and maybe try to read between the lines a bit. It is clear that Park leadership is in a very tough spot. They are under intense pressure to get North Kaibab opened, which is understandable, but perhaps not fair. What we just heard was a lot of uncertainty. The dry winter and far below normal snowpack might seem like a blessing, but it's really a classic double edged sword because it's also left the park unsure of how a proper snow melt will affect the trail, and that's before we also see it tested by monsoon rains.
Brian:Now you heard Adam mention that he will not have his crew on Upper North Kaibab for safety concerns if there's any monsoon threat. So what do you think that means for hikers? And while much of what we talked about was Upper North Kaibab, it also remains clear that there are serious concerns for all of Bright Angel Canyon, which starts above Cottonwood and runs through the box in the Phantom Ranch area all the way to the river. We know the flash flood risks are increased because of burn scarred watersheds on the rim and the drainages below it that feed Bright Angel Canyon. Heck, we even talked about the potential for rock fall into Roaring Springs Canyon because of burns scars above it.
Brian:So when you put it all together, just about the entire 14 miles of the North Kaibab Trail make up one giant and potentially dangerous question mark. Look, we all want North Kaibab and rim to rim hiking to be available as soon as possible. But with so much uncertainty and the very real possibility of even more devastation that could put lives at risk, maybe it's in everyone's best interest for the park to just come out and be clear and be firm and announce sooner rather than later that Upper North Kaibab will remain closed indefinitely, that it's not safe for hikers, and that it will only reopen when there is confidence that it is. That would at least eliminate any of this talk about a May 15 reopening, which I know many hikers have latched onto. Look, you heard Adam say it would be a win a year from now if safety had remained the priority and his crew had all gone home to their families.
Brian:Well, I think the same can be said for our hiking community and their families too. Hey, let's continue this conversation in our Hike Club Grand Canyon Facebook group. I know many of you have opinions, and I would love to hear them. Again, that's Hike Club Grand Canyon on Facebook. Thanks again to Adam Gibson for all the time he gave us, and to Joel Baird in the public affairs office for facilitating.
Brian:I think them agreeing to that interview answered a lot of questions and provided an invaluable service to the Grand Canyon community, and I know I speak for all of us when I say we are very, very grateful for that. Alright. That is it for now. Again, more from Adam next week as we dive further into life on the Grand Canyon Trail crew, and coach Arnie, he'll be back as well. Until then, my name is Brian Special encouraging you as always to go hike a canyon.
Brian:Take that first step. Embrace the journey. And when you get there, whether it's for time goals or taking your time, just hike your own hike and savor every step in the magnificent Grand Canyon. We'll see you next time on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude show powered by Hikin. Please support the brand that supports this show at hikin.club.
Brian:That's hikin.club.