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blue-sky (verb)
: to offer ideas that are conceived by unrestrained imagination or optimism.
Hosted by Erin O’Toole, President and Managing Director of ADIT North America. Erin is the former Member of Parliament for Durham and former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. The Blue Skies political podcast explores issues facing Canada and the world in a format that brings together thought leaders for an informed and engaging conversation.
Hon. Erin OToole (00:01.787)
Welcome to Blue Skies. I'm fortunate that people enjoy coming on Blue Skies enough the first time that I'm now getting repeat guests. We had Mark Norman talking defense and Arctic and submarines in our last podcast. Now we have another repeat customer of Blue Skies and someone I consider a great business leader, great Canadian and a good friend. James Scongack is the executive vice president and COO of Bruce Power. But on top of that, he's also
on the board of the Independent Electricity System Operator, the IESO that plan what the electricity needs are of the province. He's the chair of the Canadian Nuclear Isotope Council, which we'll talk about a little bit later, and very importantly, chair of the Pediatric Oncology Group of Ontario that works with youth cancers. He's a top 40 under 40, platinum Jubilee winner, an MBA from IV, a graduate of Guelph, a great Canadian. James, thanks for coming back on the Blue Skies podcast.
James Scongack (01:01.481)
Great, thanks for having me here and always love getting together and catching up and really looking forward to today's discussion.
Hon. Erin OToole (01:10.401)
I am as well. you know, just a few weeks ago, we had, I think, the most exciting Canadian Nuclear Association set of meetings in Ottawa that I've ever seen. So much so that it was sold out a few months ago when I tried to get a ticket to go. I had to pull a few strings to get in. The enthusiasm in the Rogers Centre in Ottawa was incredible. Lots of international participation.
We've talked in the last podcast about the nuclear Renaissance we're seeing Canada around the world. What are you just before we start, how are you viewing as an executive in the sector here in Canada? How are you viewing the Renaissance? And are you seeing, are you seeing this boom translate into more interest, easier to recruit, better and wider supply chain? Tell me how you guys are experiencing this nuclear Renaissance.
James Scongack (02:07.347)
Yeah, no, Erin, it's a great question and you're right, it is a very exciting time to be in the nuclear industry and what I would say is I would expand that it's a great time to be in the energy sector in Canada, whether...
whether it's nuclear, whether it's the opportunities in oil and gas, whether it's the opportunities in hydroelectric, you really see this broader renaissance of the importance of energy as an important tool. You I always say that you can't have economic security without energy security, and so I really think in large part the renaissance and the reemergence of interest in nuclear power is really driven by the demands of the time.
And, you know, I always reflect, if I go back to my first CNA conference back in 2003, you could never have predicted the kind of enthusiasm, the kind of investment and the kind of conversations that we're having about the industry's future. And I always go back to those times where, you know, we didn't have a record-breaking CNA conference, where times were more difficult. And, you know, I really want to start with recognition to you.
because while nuclear is undertaking a renaissance right now, we should talk about that is both fragile but exciting. But you've always been there for our industry, whether it was through your time in public service in the Durham region, your time in cabinet, your time as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. You've always been there for our industry when it wasn't at its peak. And I thought it was important to recognize you for your leadership, Erin, because it was that support for our industry when times were more difficult that has allowed us to get to where we are right now.
James Scongack (03:58.133)
I would say is that in terms of characterizing the enthusiasm of the industry, I think we've gone through a period of time here the last decade and a half where nuclear from a performance perspective, whether it's safety performance, whether it's project execution performance, really has followed through and delivered on the things we said we would. And I think when you have an industry that is delivering, and know we're going to talk later about large capital project execution, there's a lot more
enthusiasm and willingness for people to invest in the sector when they see the sector delivering. I always say nobody spends nobody works and there's a lot of people working in nuclear right now and a lot of enthusiasm because people are investing and we only get investor support when we have that policy stability which we have here in the province of Ontario and that investor support. So I think that's what's really leading it but I'm always one of those individuals that say we're only as good as
our last day of performance and this is something that we can't take for granted. So I would say investor support, public support, regulator support, community support, it's something we have to earn every day and it's as fragile as your last day of performance.
Hon. Erin OToole (05:13.765)
Well said, and let's use that as a time to sort of brief the Blue Skies listeners on the investors and the support that you have at Bruce, because your model, and I wrote about this in the National Post a couple of months ago, the uniqueness in Canada of the Bruce Power model coming out of the restructuring of Ontario Hydro, you had Ontario Hydro assets transferred to a private company that would deliver the highest levels of
of performance, reliability, safety, and to do that, bringing in some of the efficiencies, some of the discipline that the private sector can bring. Tell us a little bit about the origins of Bruce, who those owners are, including your workers, and how that has helped you deliver that reliable performance so that you can be judged on your last day. Every time I see you, I said, you're keeping the lights on, so I'm happy.
Tell us about the Bruce story.
James Scongack (06:17.055)
Yeah, no, to Erin. And if you sort of date back to really the 1990s, I grew up in Port Elgin. It's a small town north of our site here. The 1990s was a very difficult period for the Bruce Power site. In the 1990s, for a range of reasons, Ontario Hydro decided to really mothball half the site and really didn't have a long-term investment future. As the Harris government at the time looked to what to do
with that challenge, the Bruce Power site was really put out as one of the first opportunities to build what is now very commonly referred to as a public-private partnership. And so effectively Bruce Power came in with an opportunity to operate this site to 2018. The initial view of Bruce Power was run the assets to their end of life and hand the keys back. Of course once Bruce Power assumed control of the site, we had a very different vision as to what that could
mean for Ontario, what that could mean for our industry and our country. And now we're sitting here with a site that is one of Canada's largest privately funded electricity infrastructure projects, a long-term lease to operate this site to 2064, an ability to secure the output of our site, which is a third of Ontario's power for the next 50 years, and produce lifesaving medical isotopes. We've been very fortunate that
to have strong policy support at the provincial level here in Ontario that has really paved the way for nuclear power to play an important role. The phase out of coal was enabled through the additional output that we secured through that transformation. And we're very fortunate to have investors in the case of OMERS, TC Energy, our two unions, and also 90 % of our employees are self-investors in the site. So very innovative public-private partnership. But one of the things when you're
in the nuclear business and again you'll always hear me talk about that theme we just talked about about earning your earning your reputation through through your performance
James Scongack (08:23.411)
The nuclear plants that are the most commercially competitive nuclear plants in the world are also the safest nuclear plants. And oftentimes in the 1990s when there was a debate about should there be private sector involvement in nuclear power, there was a real debate about would the private sector compromise safety for commercial motives. And in nuclear, it's a really strong model for a public-private partnership because the safest nuclear plants are also the most reliable.
And why is that? Well, to run a nuclear plant that is safe and to run a nuclear power plant that is reliable and commercially competitive, it means that you're setting your workers up for success every single day in terms of their interaction with the plant. But most importantly, you're investing in the maintenance and the refurbishment and the innovation of the equipment. So nuclear plants that operate to a high degree of what we call equipment reliability are also commercially the most successful. So I think what Bruce Power-Aaron has
really been is an example of where that.
The private sector was able to bring innovation, put our money where our mouth is. There were risks that we realized along the way that were financially impactful, but there were also rewards that we were able to build from that. So I like to think of us as one of Canada's most successful public-private partnerships. And I personally don't take credit when I say that. I give the credit to our men and women who show up to work here every day and have delivered that transformation.
Hon. Erin OToole (09:55.669)
through the Power Workers Union and the Society of Energy Professionals, they're not only your workforce, they're your investors as well, which is an interesting model. And I think people, you you touched on it, but I think people have to reflect the work of Bruce contributed to Canada's largest single reduction of greenhouse gases in our nation's history, which was Ontario turning off coal, which as you said was not possible without the generation
secured by Bruce. And you operate, correct me if I'm wrong, the largest nuclear site in the world right now is here in Ontario and at Bruce. Is that correct or are you in the top three? Break it down for me.
James Scongack (10:41.353)
Yeah, certainly the top in North America. We have seen some sites in Russia and China get close to us from an output perspective, but certainly in the top three, on the day and what units are operating, but certainly seen in the world as one of the greatest concentrations of nuclear power. And you're spot on. If you look at the phase out of coal, not only the largest climate change or greenhouse gas,
Reduction Initiative in Canada, but frankly in the world when you look at actual real emissions removed, the Bruce Power site additional output that we brought online from when we took over the site in 2001 to when coal was phased out in 2014, that additional energy you can put it on one axis, you can see on the other axis the drop in coal, and from a pure energy perspective, a lot of people talk capacity and energy in the energy sector, but it's really the actual energy you need to phase out.
something like coal, we were 70 % of that energy. And really why we were able to do that is really through two items. There was just the pure volume of additional power that we were able to put on the grid, so coal did not need to run baseload. But one of the other innovations that Bruce Power and our workers put in place was the ability to flex our output.
So we were able to flex the output on the grid, is something that was novel for nuclear plants, at least in the past 50 years. It's something that we've been doing for the last 15 years. So we were able to provide the volume of power to phase coal out. We were able to provide the flexibility that the system needed, but also through that strong safety and equipment reliability focus, our plants could be counted on from a reliability perspective. And that fundamentally, when all is said and done, people can talk about what's important to them with energy.
don't have reliability, you know that becomes a very critical issue for families and businesses and we were able
Hon. Erin OToole (12:42.171)
the lights on. Okay, we're going to transition into really what I wanted to talk about because it's not well known, but another example of how Bruce filled a very, very important public good need through your workforce and through your ability to innovate and that's isotopes. know, Canadians may recall or people certainly that listen to Blue Skies would know that in late 2000s, early 2010s, Canada
struggled with the experimental reactor that had produced not only most of our medical isotopes, but most of the supply for the world were in Chalk River, and that was a steady supply of isotopes. And when that older experimental reactor needed to be shut down, there was a deficit worldwide in nuclear isotopes that are critical for modern health care.
Bruce saw that need and then filled it in a really innovative way. And I'd like you to talk about the Bruce experience first, James, and then the broader CNIC role you have where this nuclear isotopes industry is another thing that Canada's at the vanguard of due to our can-do technology and due to the innovation we have in our sector.
James Scongack (14:07.347)
No, absolutely, Erin. you know, not to take a trip down memory lane, but I remember coming out of that period of time when you were, you know, playing a critical role in the Harper government. One of the challenges that the government of Canada came out and really challenged the nuclear sector with was how do we continue to assert our leadership position as a country that we've had for 50 years, but do so in a way that has that reliability?
It just seems like it was yesterday, but also so long ago that that challenge was out there. But if you take a step back for over 50 years, Canada has been a world leader in the production, the use and the development of life-saving medical isotopes. We just celebrated the 73rd anniversary of the first cobalt beam therapy in the world that was in London, Ontario. It was actually such a great sense of Canadian pride that we produced a stamp that year. But if you sort of look at the growth
of our expertise in isotopes around the world, over a number of decades, we were really set up for, we were setting ourselves up for a crisis. And what I mean by that is you sort of had this global healthcare system that started to rely on isotopes, like we rely on electricity every single day, but that was built on a very shaky foundation of research reactors. know, a research reactor is not a commercial reactor. There's not four of them or eight of them on one site. There's one of them. And they're meant for research purposes.
So when a research reactor goes out on maintenance, it's not like there's another reactor sitting right beside it to replace that output. And so over a number of decades, in particular between the 1990s right through to 2009, the demand for these medical isotopes grew exponentially around the world, but the supply came from this very shaky source. And those fault lines that had been building for a long period of time, as you noticed, as you noted, really came to fruition in the 2009-2010.
change the game we said that from a Bruce Power perspective we have the same neutron source if not one that is hundreds of times bigger than a research reactor and it's really a neutron source that you need to make isotopes plus we have eight reactors on one site so when a reactor has to go down for planned maintenance
James Scongack (16:24.873)
we can produce isotopes in the adjoining unit. So we worked very closely with Nordion and other partners out there to, and not just Bruce Power, you see Ontario Power Generation showing extraordinary leadership. You also see in the non-reactor community with cyclotron production. But what we really did was say, we're not gonna forego that global leadership role that people are counting on Canada for. We're gonna leverage the strong infrastructure we have with power reactors to step in and fill the void. So I would say Ontario and Canada,
have not only provided the reliability that the world needed in medical isotopes, but we've changed the game because we're using power reactors that have a significant amount of redundancy. So just like you can count on us for electricity production, you can count on us now for isotope production. And I think that has changed the game. And I really believe, frankly, when I look at countries around the world, there is no other country in the world
that has the infrastructure advantage that we have here in Canada to play this role. So it's something we were able to step up and do, but it's something that we have a responsibility, especially in this era of energy security and challenging geopolitics, we have an obligation to continue to grow this role. And, you know, as I always like to say, the world is counting on Canada.
Hon. Erin OToole (17:42.587)
100%. And so Bruce stepped in after the research reactor in Chalk River was kind of retired to innovate on its site. And one thing I got to see it in action, one thing I was very impressed with was you also built in an economic reconciliation aspect of it and partnered with First Nations from the Bruce Peninsula area. Talk about that part of the isotope experience, at least for Bruce.
James Scongack (18:12.553)
No, absolutely. you know, we have a very proud history here on our site, whether it was the initial development or construction of the units, and then clearly where Bruce Power has taken them, as we talked about earlier, since 2001. But what I would say is, that when we look at the engagement and participation of our First Nations community in the area,
who's the Saginaw-Ojibwe Nation, our site is on their traditional territory and they were not in the initial construction and operation for many decades really involved in this site. And so...
One of the things I always say is that we have an obligation as an organization who is operating in their territory to make the next 50 years look different than the last 50 years. And I'm a big believer in reconciliation, but I believe you can only have reconciliation through reconciliation action. And so what we took was to work with the Saginaw-Ojibwe Nation and bring them in as an investor and a partner in our isotope business. We recognize the First Nations community still have a lot of concerns.
and questions that we continue to work through when it comes to nuclear power generation. But fighting cancer together was something that we could both agree on. And so we were really honoured to partner with the Saginaw-Ojibwe Nation back in 2019. They are part of this. They are alongside. And what that has provided is the opportunity for the community to financially benefit from this. But we've also benefited from the SANS participation and engagement.
Aaron, I see this as a framework that I'm hoping in the months and years to come we can dramatically expand because, you know, I really believe that if we want to get...
James Scongack (19:58.141)
large infrastructure built in Canada and do it in a way that respects reconciliation through reconciliation, we have to be prepared to do something different. And I always say back to that line, nobody spends, nobody works. And if we can find ways for Indigenous communities to invest in infrastructure and they're at the table as equal partners, to me that is a win-win going forward. And so really proud to have them in this isotope venture. And what I would say,
is that I think it's also a reflection of the fact that more than anything financial, more than anything commercial, that you can't have trust unless you're collaborating and working together. And so this has been an opportunity for us to work closer together to build that trust and also understand the history that we have to overcome going forward and build that trust and collaboration for what I hope will be a very bright future.
Hon. Erin OToole (20:58.463)
Well, I think a lot of us can say the previous 50 years didn't see those partnerships, didn't see equity participation. There was no economic reconciliation. There was no action, as you said, but it's up to leaders today, like yourself and myself. had this in some of our policies in 21 to make sure that the next generation is about wealth creation and wealth transfer and not just trauma transfer and
continued, you know, the failures of the past, we have the chance to have net wins. On the CNIC role, before we leave the isotope business in Canada, your chair of the council, the CNIC, we've talked a little bit about the Bruce and your innovative partnership with the Saugeen. What does that part of the nuclear industry in Canada represent in terms of jobs, in terms of economic activity?
Because if you say the nuclear industry in Ontario, everyone thinks of Bruce or Darlington, you know, they don't think of isotopes. But this is something that we're world leaders in and contributes massively to our GDP.
James Scongack (22:15.027)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, I'd say the first advantage that we have in Canada is that we don't have to operate these facilities only to produce medical isotopes. So when I look at, like for example, on the Bruce Power site, we may have only 30 to 50 people that are actually maybe working on the isotope piece, but they're leveraging what the four to 5,000 people are doing on the site in terms of running the plant for electricity production, maintaining the plant for that. And so what I would really say is that really what the
isotope.
opportunity has done is it's really added a really another value stream out of all of the base employment that is already underway. If you look at our share of isotopes globally we would be you know well over 80 % of an isotope like lutecium that is a targeted theranostic where the world dominate producer of cobalt-60 and sterilization and also for use in brain tumors and breast cancer between PICCR
and Bruce, whether it's the iodines that are used for thyroid, whether it's a diagnostic. So Canada, you'll see, is very, very dominant in that space. And what we really do is we're able to take advantage of that foundation of really a nuclear supply chain of 80,000 to 100,000 plus people and augment that going forward. The Canadian Nuclear Isotope Council, Erin, really came out of a group of us getting together in 2018 and saying,
We're too divided. All of us are off doing our own pieces. And if we want to make this a national priority, we need to come together. You know, I find people are really good at coming together in a crisis. But the Canadian Nuclear Isotope Council recognized that unless we came together and Canada took the lead,
James Scongack (24:05.609)
there would be a crisis and it may be a crisis that the healthcare system globally wouldn't recover from. we're now over hundred organizations from coast to coast to coast. We're represented in every Canadian province and we represent not just the people that produce these through reactors, but people who have the McMaster Research Reactor, people of cyclotrons across the country, Triumph in British Columbia, pharmaceutical companies, research institutions, colleges and universities. And so the CNIC really came out of a group of us coming together
and saying we're stronger when we work together and if we're going to put together a team Canada we all need to be under the same tent and you know I can tell you we would not be successful at Bruce Power unless we brought partners in. Bruce Power is not an expert in medical isotope production. We have expertise in running reactors but we recognized that we had to partner with organizations who brought that expertise and but what the good news is for us here in Canada is if you
look at the supply chain for medical isotopes here in Canada, every single player you need to be successful in the value chain exists here in Canada and that was really what we sought to do.
Hon. Erin OToole (25:18.395)
Outstanding. Well, speaking of Team Canada and partnerships, let's segment into the last part of the podcast to talk about the horizon. What's on the horizon, particularly for Ontario with NewBuild. You know, there's talk of, love Bruce 1, maybe Bruce 2, you know, is a second site at the Bruce of NewBuild beyond the reactors that are already there. The province has also indicated that
to Wesleyville outside of Port Hope, which has long been sort of held as a site by Ontario, could be developed as well. You're on the board of the IESO. It raised a lot of eyebrows last fall when the IESO's report released the fact that 75 % more generation of electricity will be needed in the next 30 years.
to meet the demands of the Ontario economy in the age of electrification, in the age of data centers and AI. We need 75 % more power at least, and we want that to be emission free. So that kind of more base load emission free, gosh, that screams out nuclear energy. And that's, I think why the small but mighty group
that were at the CNA show 15 years ago, people like you, yourself, myself knew that the industry would come back because if we were going to have a realistic modern economy in a world where we were trying to get emissions down, we needed new build. So from your vantage point, you know, as far as you might be able to talk about it, do you envision and Minister Lecce, know, Minister Smith before him,
alluded to the fact that that new build large nuclear in addition to the SMR at Darlington is on the horizon. How close is that horizon? And do you see you see Wesleyville being first? Bruce, how do you see it playing out? Tell us what you're you're able to tell us.
James Scongack (27:30.569)
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I think maybe I'll start with the IESO and their forecast. I think the IESO forecast, I think really sent a strong message to the sector. And I don't think that was by mistake that we needed to start planning for the future. And when I have the opportunity to participate in the Strategic Advisory Committee of the IESO, which has all types of generators, transmitters, distributors, range of stakeholders from the sector,
One of the things everybody agrees on is the need to carry out what we call no regret actions. And that is that we can't wait until we're prepared to make a 100 % commitment to move on building, for example, a nuclear plant or a gas plant or a transmission line. We need to move on those prerequisites right now.
And the analogy that I give is if you are an effective city or municipality, what you do is you go and you zone.
areas of your municipality or your city for residential or commercial or industrial, you make sure the services are there so that when investors or developers want to put the infrastructure in place, a lot of those prerequisites are underway. So I think what the forecast that the ISO put out, what it did was it not only came with sort of the big goal in the future, but it also created some of the tools for everybody in the sector to start some of those no regret actions. And really what you're talking about, Aaron and nuclear here,
is advancing some of those. From my perspective, always think our, it really goes back to that initial discussion we had around.
James Scongack (29:11.103)
continue to prove ourselves every day. So I think the fight future is really bright when it comes to new nuclear. We also as an industry need to continue to deliver here at Bruce. We have another seven years of our life extension program. We're over halfway. We're on time and on budget. Darlington is wrapping up their life extension program. And I do think people will continue to watch us very carefully to say, if you're going to make commitments about what you can do in the future, the proof is in the pudding right now.
precautions I always say to the sector is we also have to make sure that we safely with quality on schedule and on budget Deliver what has already been sanctioned and not get distracted on something that may come in the future because we have to earn that reputation every single day
What I would say is the opening up of the sites by Ontario Power Generation and the work that we've done here on what we call Bruce C., I think is a great step forward. Both organizations are moving forward with the permitting of those sites, which I think is really exciting. So again, getting that zoning in place.
And when people ask me how much nuclear do we actually think we're gonna build in Ontario, I always give the same answer. And that is I truly believe we can build as much nuclear as we can transact.
So I think that the question is really on the industry, is to say, have a province and frankly, a world energy supply or world energy sector here that needs as much nuclear as we can bring to market. What's going to be important for us is to develop the, I know this really ties in with your really, I thought fantastic op-ed piece, which is nuclear being very realistic about what we can transact on what timetable, how do we do it with
James Scongack (31:03.831)
predictability and cost certainty. And I think if the industry continues to deliver on that path, I don't want to sound incrementalist, but I'm a big believer in eating the elephant one bite at a time, that whether it's in Ontario or other jurisdictions in the world, if we can deliver that predictable performance in new build like we have in refurb, people will take as much as we can transact. But I still think that,
that it's important for us to be realistic about what we can do by when. So we're held to, you know, I think a very achievable standard. And from my point of view, when I look at the need for nuclear in Ontario, I think refurbishment of existing units clearly makes sense. I think the Welles-Wesleyville site, absolutely spot on move by Ontario Power Generation and Minister Lecce. And I think there's huge opportunity here at Bruce for, you know, at least up to four more units. I think how we go about doing that
though is going to be so important because just like we've turned things around going back to you know you and I talking back to 2001 to 2003 if you look at nuclear's history where we've had cyclical performance what has happened is we've lost that policy support so you know I think there's a huge opportunity but the ball is really in our court to now execute to that you know the province of Ontario has given us everything we need to be successful we now have to deliver for Minister Lecce a premier for
Prime Minister Carney, whoever gets sworn into the federal cabinet and I think we'll continue to have that support if we deliver.
Hon. Erin OToole (32:39.565)
Yeah. And you referenced the op-ed I wrote in the financial post a couple of months ago, and maybe we'll post it in the show notes. But I was talking about the construction risk. Because as a kid that grew up in the shadow of Darlington, Darlington was so critical for our community, not just in power and climate. GM was transitioning from the large employer in the Durham region to Oshawa of 30,000 people. Now the largest employer in the Durham region by far is OPG.
at both Pickering, course, and Darlington. But Darlington almost broke the back of the sector in Ontario because under Ontario Hydro, the old structure, Darlington came in years late and three times over budget. And that led to a sense that we couldn't get the big projects done anymore.
What I liked the most about Bruce, particularly with showing how that private sector discipline could be brought to refurbishments and to effective operation without any sacrifice to safety or community engagement. In fact, helping set new standards has been my impression. Do you see this time though, the risk being spread out into the capital part of it so that it's not just operations?
that the private sector and the public-private partnership, which you described so well with Bruce, could extend to partnering on construction and some risk being held by the private sector and not just completely by the taxpayer.
James Scongack (34:20.585)
Yeah, Erin, and I thought the op-ed was really timely because I really do believe...
similar to what you had referred to previously on the ISO demand forecast, I think the issue that you wrote in the op-ed is the issue we have to confront with nuclear. And being able to confront that issue is going to be, I think, the prerequisite to our success. Maybe I'll just back up and if I sort of go back to first principles on what made us successful with our refurbishment program. And I think you could apply this to any large infrastructure program.
And that is before you start construction there's a few elements that are absolutely non-negotiables that have to be put in place. You have to have the design of whatever work you're going to complete done. It has to be wrapped up. You can't be engineering while you're constructing.
that design has to be in an environment of regulatory certainty has to meet the regulatory requirements. So if you know right out of the gate that this is what I'm building, it meets the requirements, that provides some certainty and predictability around construction.
The other components that we put a lot of effort into in our refurbishment program was all of the key long-term lead items ordered well before you start construction. You know, if you go and look at infrastructure projects that have had challenges, it's been when designs are changing mid construction, regulatory items change. Governments, in the case of Darlington, stopped and started the project multiple times in a period of high interest rates. One of the things that often is
James Scongack (36:01.783)
not discussed a lot in the case of Darlington is really it was financing costs which drove a lot of that cost overrun.
And so the predictability is, think, what is what is going to be absolutely critical. And I think what Bruce Power has said as a private sector company is if and this goes really with what Minister Lecce and Premier Ford have talked about with no regret actions, create the mechanisms that we can invest to complete the design, to do the early procurement, to do the staging. And if we do it that way, then people are willing to share some of the burden of of construction risk. What people aren't prepared to do is take construction
risk on something they don't have control over. And what I mean by that is that somebody who's carrying out construction is not going to take risk on...
changing a design halfway through pouring concrete. So we've learned some, some, some very clear lessons. I think we just need to be disciplined with. And look, I'm always the kind of person that wants to get going on everything. I know you're the same way Erin. And what I say in nuclear is, is sometimes we need to go slow to go fast. That if we look at this as like a 10 to 12 year program, I don't mean sort of impact assessments and some of that. mean, real work upfront, investing in getting the design work, getting
working in manufacturing shops, manufacturing components, staging equipment, getting the sites ready. I think if we invest in those areas, the construction risk is absolutely manageable. What is not manageable is doing this on the fly. And I believe that...
James Scongack (37:38.069)
If we invest in those areas and you've seen Darlington has proven this you've seen we've proven it in our refurbishments and MCRs that by spending that effort in every subsequent MCR or refurbishment we're doing it at a lower cost and faster and that's I think credit to that prerequisite work. So I think your op-ed was really good because it called out that the prerequisite for nuclear to be successful is going to be to have that predictability and the public sector can't do this on its own and I think that
private sector discipline is going to be a major contributor to getting this right.
Hon. Erin OToole (38:17.165)
A great overview. Thank you. And obviously political certainty and predictability, as you said, is critical. I've often thought you would make a great politician, James, but I wouldn't wish that on someone if they didn't want to. But I'm going to test you with the following question. You talked about the importance. It is. Well, you talked about
James Scongack (38:40.062)
no, that's quite a setup, Erin.
Hon. Erin OToole (38:44.687)
predictability and design being so critical. So will the new builds be can-dos?
James Scongack (38:52.233)
You know what, I don't know the answer to that. Look, I've spent my entire life working on a site and in a community that was powered by CANDU reactors. So as a Canadian, I am so proud of our technology. And...
James Scongack (39:08.305)
What Bruce Powers focused on is we're the large and I think it's important to say too, we are the largest investor in CANDU reactors private sector in Canada and in fact in the world. So we are really proud of CANDU reactors. What's been important for Bruce Powers back to that discipline is we've gone out, we've narrowed the process down. I can't share who's in that process, but we've gone and narrowed down and said, if Bruce Power were to consider building a new reactor, here's the requirements from a design perspective. Here's where we would expect
the technology to be. And clearly, CANDU is an important part of that consideration, but it's really important for us to put the ball back in Atkins Realist Court and CANDU's court to say, are our requirements if we're going to build something and you have to meet that. And I think that's going to be the way to drive the predictability. So I'm dodging your question, not just a little bit, a lot, but look, we're really proud of the technology, but we also want to make sure that
James Scongack (40:08.075)
the next evolution of that technology is where we need it. So maybe that's all I'll say on that. Is that a good politician answer or is that a...
Hon. Erin OToole (40:15.691)
That's a brilliant, brilliant future premier James Gagnac here on the blue skies. No, listen, I'm the same as you. Very, very proud of CANDU. We should be. In fact, the ice slopes are critical. It has, I think, been the most successful design in terms of industrial economies and output in the world, by and on. But obviously with geopolitics and with
James Scongack (40:19.311)
OK, good. I'll take that as a compliment.
Hon. Erin OToole (40:45.485)
all of the questions going on right now, I think all of these will be looked at. You know, there's a good debate on, are there two Canadian technologies? Because, know, Westinghouse is now owned by, by Cameco and Brookfield, but developed and the IP owned by the United States. Do we buy Canadian? these are all really valid questions and something that we should be having discussions on given the geopolitics, of it.
But if we are building new sites, we also have to maximize the generation we have at those sites and minimize the chance for design changes and risk. I'm not a nuclear engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but it's something that I think we have to have a really good public policy debate on because it's a bit like national defense. You can still have a very strong public benefit through
industrial technology benefits and a whole range of things, even if the technology may be from an ally. Right now, I'm just watching it with great interest. know, the CNA, you could see all the players that will be positioning for a future RFP. But that will be something that I think the construction risk and
the ability to get this power online. Because going before we started and we'll end with this, we were talking about, we're taping this at the same time that Mark Carney is, Mr. Carney is having lunch, working lunch with President Trump. We could, if we were smart, build a North American energy partnership, not just for oil and gas, for critical minerals.
and for the decarbonization of the North American electricity grid, where as Ontario brings in, as you said, as we generate as much output as the market can handle for nuclear, if we could bring that into the whole Northeast, we could provide reliable, affordable, emission-free power. At the same time, Quebec's looking at new hydro, Manitoba's looking at new hydro, we could also be a clean energy partner.
Hon. Erin OToole (43:03.963)
alongside a traditional energy partner for the United States. So the geopolitics, I think, of nuclear will be very interesting to watch in the next few years.
James Scongack (43:17.489)
And I think you've been a long-standing advocate for that and I couldn't agree more. I know this is a challenging time clearly in Canada-U.S. relations, but I'm completely aligned with you. I think we should be talking about North American energy dominance. I think that's, as you say, it's nuclear, it's hydro, it's our supply chain, it's our critical minerals, it's our isotopes, it's our oil and gas, it's all the above.
I think that will lead to not only lot of economic security, but frankly, prosperity. so I think it's an exciting time and I hope our two countries can work together on that. think there's, I think I always believe in growing the pie versus splitting it up and I'm hoping that in the months to come, we talk about how do we grow the pie so we both win more as opposed to a zero sum game. so, like all Canadians, I'm cheering.
for Team Canada and our premiers and our prime minister to be successful in this because there's a lot at stake but you know we as Canadians should be pretty damn proud of our energy sector in all those areas and I think we don't talk about it enough. I know you're a strong advocate for it but you know I think a key item was we're going to have to be far more assertive and bold in this strategy if we can expect to get you know work closely with the U.S. This is a bold discussion.
It's not a passive incremental discussion. You know, that's what my Team Canada had on more than my Bruce Power hat, but I really do believe it to be true and I'm in total agreement with you.
Hon. Erin OToole (44:56.099)
Well, we're really proud of Bruce Power's leadership and your leadership as part of Team Canada. James, not only, as I always say, you're keeping the lights on, developing the CNIC for the Isotope Council, being an advocate for Indigenous Reconcilia Action, informing people about the benefits of Canadian energy, of CANDU, of the Team Canada approach. yeah, energy dominance.
Not just energy security. like that. I'm going to even up my language after talking to you, James. um, well, I think energy I've said is the linchpin to getting Trump back to the table and back to respectful dialogue because even just in the last few days, some of the large shale basins in the U S have acknowledged that they've passed the midpoint of their life.
James Scongack (45:30.535)
I steal most of your lines so I think I owe you a few.
Hon. Erin OToole (45:50.661)
So the energy transition has been driven by the shale gas revolution in the United States. But if we're going to continue that, they need Canadian gas. They also need to decarbonize the electricity grid and move away from coal and into exports from Canada that help them do that. Critical mineral mines here, the uranium from Cameco in Saskatchewan. So Team Canada does have a lot to be proud of and...
Ontarians and Team Canada have a lot to be proud of with Bruce Power. So James, thank you for blue-skying the nuclear sector and isotopes for the second time with us today.
James Scongack (46:30.687)
Great, thanks for having me.