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“Delve is an insight engine that transforms how brands understand their world.”
With every story, thread and meme battling for our attention, what do we focus on and care about? Communications pros Sean Garrett and Allison Braley—trusted by Twitter, Amazon, Meta, Slack, Bain Capital Ventures, and more—talk with those shifting the future of communications and who pays attention to what.
Sean 00:01
Welcome to Attention Shift. We unpack where communication and communications is headed. I'm Sean Garrett and we’re supported by Delve with the top-level context engine for comms. My co-host, Allison Braley, and I talk to industry experts about how we show up and get our message across in an era of limited time and shortened attention spans. Let's dive in.
Allison 00:25
This week on Attention Shift, we're talking to Eric Newcomer, prolific tech journalist whose byline has appeared in Bloomberg, The Information, the New York Times. He runs Newcomer now, which is on Substack, and it's really become a must-read for everyone in tech.
Sean 00:36
We’ll get his perspective on how the news business is changing as more star reporters build their own brands. But we're also joined today by Sam Nichols, a far younger and far smarter version of Allison and I, who already has a successful career in social storytelling for consumer and news brands like The Skimm.
Allison 00:56
And so Sam is not the voice of her generation, but she is a voice of a generation. No, Sam?
Sam 01:02
Exactly. Thank you for the cross-reference.
Allison 01:06
Yes, I'm here for you. But Sean, let's talk about brands and Amazon and yachts and influencers. Let's get into it.
Sean 01:10
Cool. Yeah, no, I was on vacation during Cannes… and not that I would have totally paid attention anyway. But I don't want to dismiss it, because I do think it's like a really interesting annual gathering of marketing communications think, and I would love to get into with you, Sam, what is your take on Cannes as someone who I don't know, like… I am just curious, like, just The event in general. And then this year.
Sam 01:42
I have a few controversial, maybe, maybe not controversial thoughts, which is that while I at first saw the yachts and the influencers on the Amazon yacht and other activations, I was like, What is this doing? Then I have that moment where I was like, Okay, well now I'm like, thinking about Amazon, and now I'm like, remembering that I need to go on Amazon to buy that thing that I thought I needed or don't need. And then I was like, Is this the whole point? Did I just, like, fall into this trap? Because I saw like, three different influencers, literally just like, waving napkins on a yacht… on the Amazon yacht.
Sean 02:21
But like, are people seeing, like, Cannes content?
Sam 02:24
Yeah. So they're seeing it, because these influencers are, and I actually wanted to reach out to one of my like, acquaintances who was one of these influencers, who was on this trip, to say, like, what was the agreement to get invited to go? Like, what did you have to do X amount of content based on Amazon or based on, like, what their sort of marketing push was? It was more that they were just showcasing, like any other trip they have gone on, right? Because half of what a lot of these influencers do is also go on trips with brands, and that's just normal content that everybody sort of expects. So it's not like it's a… it's sort of just like we wake up and I don't even know it was happening, but then suddenly I'm seeing it on her Instagram stories and seeing it in feed, and I'm like, Oh, I guess this is a thing. And then suddenly I'm getting fed more content because I've interacted with her content, let's say, as she's someone that that I've followed. So then I'm getting more content from other people on TikTok and on Instagram, and sort of seeing all that. And I did think to myself, like, what is, what is the whole point beyond it, and what are they really trying to get out of it? But then I thought to myself, Well, now I'm just, I'm thinking about this brand. So I guess in their way, like…
Sean 03:28
What do you what are you inspired to buy when you see an influencer on a yacht?
Sam 03:33
No, I'm not inspired to buy anything yacht-related. It just made me think of the fact that I, like, I don't know, wanted to get a new water bottle, I think at the time? Like when I was there, it was like, Oh, I forgot that. I put that in my Amazon cart, like, three days ago, and I need to go back in the app now and do that because, oh, right, Amazon is a thing.
Allison 3:50
It's just another touch point for them, I guess, right?
Sam 03:55
Yeah, because so many brands have done so many big over the top things that they've actually then gotten negative press for, in a way. There's been so many brands now that have tried to do things in a more relatable way. So they might bring, like a community member on the yacht instead with the other influencers, or whatever that is, to try to make…
Sean 04:11
More more relatable yachts.
Sam 04:15
A more relatable yacht, exactly.
Allison 04:16
It's the Katy Perry Daisy after the space trip phenomenon.
Sam 04:20
It’s like we’re bringing the guy who doesn't go on the yacht on the yacht, because out of the kindness of our hearts here at Amazon.
Sean 04:28
So I have a question. This is a little bit out of left field. I've been told by all that read that we should not be calling these folks influencers. We should be calling them creators. Is there a difference between influencers and creators? Not saying this at all in a derisive way at all. I actually mean this because, like, I was reading something very thoughtful about Cannes, which is basically that, like, creators are kind of turning the advertising marketing industry inside out in many ways. Like with their ability, to use AI, with their ability to use like, you know, you know, a very strong computer in their hands with their iPhone, their ability to, like, basically record like, you know, great quality video content, do post production, do all this stuff. Like, literally, like, on a beach. You have creators who can basically create, like, high quality marketing content for a brand, you know, on the fly, and then if they're given the okay and the ability to do it, it becomes less about kind of their image and more about their ability to kind of create something pretty interesting for these brands.
Sam 05:34
Yeah, definitely. I think that each person, what I found based on the different sort of creators and personalities, if you will, that I've followed and seen or worked with is that, like each person kind of sees themselves. They've almost maybe bucketed themselves into sort of like “I'm an influencer” or “I'm a creator,” right? So people who are like, making and producing high quality content, they're constantly creating for other brands, to your point, working on brand deals and doing sort of like high-quality production. I think that influencer really came from like OG, like… can I say OG on this professional podcast?
Allison 06:13
This is an unprofessional podcast.
Sean 06:16
It’s the first thing you need to learn.
Sam 06:18
Yeah, the sort of like Tumblr influencers and YouTube creators and YouTube influencers and all of that. And it was just sort of like people with influence are influencers, right? And people who, now, you know, are creating more content and really creating like art, have decided to be creators. And I do think that like Meta really tapped into that a bit more with like like, both Meta and Tiktok, in a way, by letting you have a creator account on Instagram, right? It went from like you could have a professional account or a personal account, then now you could have a creator account, and we're going to give you creator access. And on Tiktok, it's like the Tiktok creator fund and trying to, like, really make it so that it's like these people supporting the sort of creative space around what everyone is doing. And I think at the same time, like in my sort of work doing branded content on social media, I would say that it's based on the target audience, right? Because people ultimately like if they're trying to reach a very specific demographic, whether that's Gen Z or young millennial, is they're not going to reach them in TV ads. They don't watch TV, or if they are they don’t watch live TV, so and they're paying premiums to not have commercials be run during their shows. And like, oh, like, sort of, in my day, at 29… in my day, like commercials came through on TV. Like we were talking about all the sort of like sandcastle art and all these things in…
Allison 07:43
In my day, Sam, we read them in the newspaper. You know, even, even worse.
Sam 07:48
But it's crazy that like, now all of a sudden it's like, that's not, it's really trying to be like, Okay, well now we have these people who have all these tapped in audiences. And that's why it's like, also the creators, where people I feel like now people say, like, oh, influencers, they have like, millions of followers, but the value comes more from people who have maybe potentially a smaller audience, but they're so locked in, right? They have like 20,000 followers, but truly, 10 to 15,000 of those people really are buying what they're selling, right? So that's so much more valuable for a brand, whereas sometimes these other influencers, who have millions of followers only, like, you know, 1% of their audience are paying attention. So for a brand, it's not doing anything other than getting like, their word of mouth, but they're not actually able to sell the product, right?
Allison 08:33
It feels like influencer is like the new, maybe, like celebrity and creator is the new, like artist. You know, like Prince was like, I'm the artist formerly known as… like, he viewed himself as an artist, where maybe Kim Kardashian views herself as more of a celebrity and not, I don't know.
Sean 08:48
It's like artists. It's like artists/agency in a way. They're almost like agencies, like in a, you know, in a human form, and who are able to build and create something for the purpose of selling it. And certainly, there's artistry related to that. So it's more like the creative who worked at the ad agency, who's like now unleashed to do their own thing without the constraints of the agency around them.
Allison 09:11
So Sam, when you think about people in your age bracket and younger, do you think that that's where they're consuming news, or is it purely from influencers? And how much stock do they place in individuals for credibility versus like mastheads and brands?
Sam 09:26
I think there's a sort of battle, in a way, going on between, like, where everyone gets their news and this sort of argument of, even at the top line, like we're not even talking about the news yet, because we're talking so much about where we're even getting our trusted news first. And there's so much discourse online about like, you shouldn't be on that platform, like everything on that is false. Where are you getting your information? So we're not even getting into the actual news itself first. There's a huge sort of TikTok news. I think it's like the new sort of wave of journalist of journalists, in a way of, you know, they didn't want to go into traditional media, so they kind of took to social media, whether that's YouTube, Tiktok, or Instagram, to become these sort of social-first news reporters. I think that like Jessica Yellen, I don't know if you both know her, like, I think she's a really good example of that, where it's sort of this, like, news, not noise. Trying to just report as like, to the point as possible in a way that is really approachable by like, using the tactics and the sort of, you know, reels and carousels, really easy, digestible carousels, things that are saveable for people. I think the biggest thing in a little bit of my generation, and I'm seeing it, so just because I can say this, because I have a Gen Z sister, that the attention span is so short, so it's like, how can you get the news to them in a way that literally is in half a second? And how can you make it so that they stop and pay attention to those things? Right? So it's sort of like, whether it's a catchy image or it's a video, to have them literally, you know, thumb stop, as we call it, like a thumb stop on a scroll to actually interact with something is, I think, the sort of challenge right now. And so I think, then you add the added layer now, of AI, of like, okay, so being able to determine now whether a new story is built off AI, or is real is something that I think there's sort of this Gen Z millennial push to say, like, you know, boomers don't get AI. Or, like, my mom sent me this video and she doesn't know that it's AI. And then there's sort of almost, like, so distrusting now of everything that it's just become, it's become a bit of a cluster. You know? It's one of those things where there are certain creators that have built up a trusted enough audience that work in news, and that is their sole content, right? That's all they talk about. And I think there's a couple that I can kind of pull but I think those are the people that have it locked-in that say, this is where I get my news. It's really easily digestible. They're talking to me like a normal person, not adding in extra jargon so that I don't understand this, because my attention span is so short, and I need to know exactly the info that I need that's going to affect me in some way. So I think those people have it down, and then it's just sort of like being able to sift through the rest of it.
Allison 12:21
And you said something important there about focus. Like it feels like the people who are trusted have a level of focus on a topic or sort of expertise that they're bringing to the table, and the discovery of those people has gotten easier than ever, if that's your particular interest. Does that feel accurate?
Sam 12:38
It's either or. It's either. Maybe it's just someone that's talking about finance news and that really is their niche, or it's someone that has a really good format that is repeatable constantly of how they're saying the news. There is this one girl, it's a bit tongue-in-cheek funny, that that does news, and she's she does it in a very like valley girl way, where she's like, Okay, listen, so the girls are fighting, and it was like when, like, Trump and Elon were in her Twitter battle. But she does it in a way, and every single time, and all the comments are always like, Thank you for just like, breaking it down. for me. Just breaking it down like a normal person would talk like your friend would speak to you. It's actually very it's kind of like coming off The Skimm not to be a spokesperson for what I was, but the whole point of The Skimm was to, like, break it down in a way that was just, like, exactly what you need to know in five minutes and read out the door. So having this, like, very repeatable format is, I think that's what's making those social influencers in news so successful and have people follow them. Or, yes, to your point, it's just focusing on a specific niche. It's like, that's the person I know that always does, like the finance news or women's health news or whatever it is.
Sean 13:47
Super interesting and thanks again, Sam for being on. We look forward to having you back on. We're always up for people who are smarter, funnier, better looking than us. And…
Eric 13:57
And it's a low bar.
Eric 13:58
It's really, really low, but you leap over it very skillfully. And speaking of influence, according to Delve, Eric Newcomer runs the fourth most referenced newsletter by mainstream media over the last 90 days. His analysis, reporting, and commentary is much discussed in tech, including his team's recent reporting on wild AI talent pay packages in the 9-figure range. Wow. Elite VC returns, plus how the industry is weathering tariffs. It makes Eric a must-read for any tech insider or aspiring leader. Let's welcome Eric to Attention Shift now.
Alison 14:43
Welcome to the podcast, Eric, welcome to Attention Shift.
Eric 14:46
Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Alison 14:47
Yeah, so glad you could join us.
Eric 14:49
Turning the tables on me. You know, used to being on the other side of this.
Allison 14:53
I have been on the receiving end of your grillings before. This is this is oddly cathartic.
Eric 14:59
Yeah, exactly. I said you could ask anything you want. That's what I expect of my interview subjects. So I'm an open book.
Allison 15:07
You live by the sword. You interview by the sword. So we love that. You know, obviously you've made a lot of waves in the last couple of years by transitioning from big media to new media and starting Newcomer and becoming one of the most popular creators on Substack. How has that transition been for you? Tell me a little bit just high-level about how that's felt.
Eric 15:30
I left Bloomberg for Substack in the pandemic in 2020, so once… it was a crazy time. On the other hand, I didn't have like, you know, the cult of having coworkers in a newsroom to keep me at Bloomberg. So it was much easier to leave in some ways. Silicon Valley needed the sense of community online. You know, everybody was going to Clubhouse. People are desperate for any way to…
Sean 15:55
I remember.
Eric 15:56
Yeah, exactly. That bad. Yeah, you're willing to be on Clubhouse.
Alison 16:00
Very lonely.
Eric 16:02
I was midnight, you know, because I was on the East Coast and so all the, you know, San Francisco people would probably be on at like, nine their time. So I was up late in bed with one AirPod in my ear trying to listen to, you know, I don't know, Mark Andreessen or something anyway. What a wild time. Yeah, so I felt like it was a great time to start a Substack. It's, you know, when the first, like, New York Times trend pieces started going and everything, and so I'm deep in it now, you know, it's more than four years. It's, it's the life I know these days. And honestly, to me, the shift has been from Bloomberg to being on my own, and now, you know, it's a team of five with some contractors. So now it's back to being sort of a team effort where, you know, I'm getting dragged into lots of conversations and trying to figure out how to be a boss in addition to being independent.
Sean 16:51
I mean, Eric, you mentioned that it was five years ago. It feels like a million years ago. What stage are we in now from this transition piece? It kind of feels like this conversation, whether you're in tech, sports, entertainment, politics, there's just been a lot of shift, right? And so like, how would you describe like, where we are now in the media world? And even, like, you know how people are even thinking about things like, new/old? Because people are just saying, This is what media is now.
Eric 17:20
Right. Joe Rogan won the election for Trump, definitely helped sort of move the narrative further in favor of independent media, or whatever we're calling it. It's a trend people are waking up to. You know, I was literally for New York Tech Week at an event that Edelman the PR firm put on with a bunch of creators. So there is still some sense of, like, novelty to it, even though it feels like, yeah, it's, it's been going for a while. I think we're getting a sort of new wave of people doing it. But yeah, I agree that it's sort of, it's just, you know, a natural part of the media ecosystem at this point, if influencers are bigger than most journalists, then, yeah, it's sort of the new normal.
Allison 18:05
It's sort of like AI. Every company is an AI company right now. Soon that's going to be a pointless thing to say. And I imagine the same is true for new media.
Eric 18:13
Well, I mean, one particular hobby horse I've had on this is sort of somebody who is in mainstream media, who went independent, where, you know, for a while a lot of these independent people were true, sort of, you know, hadn't necessarily come from journalism. Now that's shifting somewhat. You know, I like to say I'm like a creator that exceeds expectations, or I'd be happy to see this sort of fancy brand of journalism destroyed, honestly in… to help the journalists like, I think we've been in this weird world where journalists were held to a super high standard, and creators were held to no standard. And journalists, by being self-important, created this standard that they got scrutinized, and everybody else was allowed to do whatever they want. And so, I'd rather move to this world where it's like we all earn our reputations. You know, our audiences judge us against sort of what we promise to be, and people with higher expectations for themselves, are, you know, viewed more positively and judged more harshly. And so, yeah, I'd rather just live or die based on my own brand versus some like broader media company identity. And so, I think that's part of what's gone on. You know, these tools have made it possible for humans to extend themselves to a bunch of people. I don't need a media brand. I can be a person that can reach my audience, and so then as a person, I can earn their trust or lose it.
Sean 19:34
What are people getting from following you and reading you that they can't get from bigger places? I guess, like, I mean, a question is, like, you know, my kids, they don't think about even institutions. They just think about people they follow, right? What are… what do they see?
Eric 19:50
Well, I mean, a core tenant when I launched was like, I don't want to have to explain who Bill Gurley is. You know, even at Bloomberg, which is pretty sophisticated, it's just like, it feels weird if you're an active venture capitalist or an insider, and there's like, you know, a constant explaining of obvious things that you understand. So just, you know, on a recent podcast episode, you know, we were, we weren't even saying, like, you know, full names of people. It was like a first name basis where you sort of had to follow along. So I think there's this sort of presumed insider status to what I'm writing, that by reading it, you're like, oh, yeah, I better get it, or I wouldn't understand a word he's saying. Obviously, I still want to speak in, like, plain English, and I hate a lot of, like, the jargon of the industry, so I'm trying not to throw around, you know, B2B, SAAS constantly, or whatever. But I try to speak like a human
Sean 20:40
Operating from first principles.
Eric 20:42
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I say that every, every newsletter, every from the beginning, it's like, oh, yeah, let's do a first principles look at this. It's an insider newsletter meant for people in the industry. So what would you want? Like, some of it's like, actual financials that are valuable to you to understand how firms are performing. And some of it is like, you know, Haman, a general catalyst. He's secretly running the firm. Even though they didn't call him the CEO, I called him the secret CEO, and a year later, they're like, Whatever, let's, let's call him the CEO. That's, that's sort of what I'm trying to deliver.
Allison 21:13
And how big does this thing get? How big do you aspire to become? I mean, you have the writing, you've got the events, the podcast, what else? What else do you imagine in the future? Do you want to keep this a little more deliberately manageable? Or are you like, let's go all the way? Let's go huge.
Eric 21:28
I'm laser focused on startups and venture capital. I feel very fortunate that Jessica Lesson in the information sort of plucked me into tech and that this is an awesome beat. And I love writing about startups and venture capital. So I definitely am not like, Oh, I'm gonna, we're gonna cover Hollywood tomorrow. You know, I just like, stay focused on startups and VC.
Sean 21:48
Although you do cover Hollywood from time to time.
Eric 21:50
Yeah, yeah. We literally, I guess, recently did a story on that time, but it was about Silicon Valley investing in Hollywood. Funny that I would say that just as we just did a Hollywood piece. But, yeah, I think I want to grow sustainably. You know, it's like a cash flow business. I think, you know, I have Madeleine Remberger, who's full-time, and Tom Doton, a good friend and former Wall Street Journal reporter who's 80% basically with me. And so, I think that's good on sort of writers for now, until we, like, are making a bunch more money from events or from paid subscribers. So I think it's just growing rationally, going where there's opportunity. I'm constantly trying to figure out, like, what's my funding round product? And like, Are there data offerings? And, you know, I think we'll consider, you know, selling subscriptions directly to venture firms. I do think I'm sort of learning, as I do this, that I have a pretty B2B business… to use jargon I just said I'd avoid. But so there are things I'm learning, but I think it's focused on servicing venture capital, deliver news and opinion, hopefully over time, sort of analysis and be a convener in Silicon Valley.
Sean 23:02
One thing that's been interesting about you since you started this is that you've kind of been an avatar for this carving out of independent space, not only because of what you've been writing, but because you've been very transparent about your business and like your subscriber growth and like you know your path, your quote/unquote path to profitability, speaking of terms. And, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, when you make a million bucks on doing things like events and stuff like, it's a known thing, because you talk about it, right? And I think a lot of people get inspired by that. But is there, like, what, what is behind, kind of, like being so transparent about the economics of what you're doing?
Eric 23:40
You all understand it better than most people. If you're a startup, you need to differentiate from the crowd, like, and one way to do that is to be super transparent, right? If, if you know big companies are going to be really guarded, small companies need to show like, Okay, I'm willing to be out there and take bigger risks, because I need to prove myself. So given that I never raised capital, I, you know, I'd sort of have a chip on my shoulder. It's like, Why? Why does the media reward companies who do irrational things like raise a bunch of money when they don't need it, rather than companies that are like, doing well? So at some point, I was just like, Man, I need to just disclose some of these financials so that I can be judged on the actual performance of the business. So I think, what end of 24? I gave some numbers to Axios, and then last year I did the classic independent thing, which is I just wrote it myself. It's like, oh.
Allison 24:30
You went direct, Eric.
Eric 24:32
I was just like, let's just say it. I didn't even try to pitch it around. It was just sort of like, Oh, I just feel like doing a reflection. So I disclosed, I think I disclosed more than 2 million in revenue in 2024 with more than a million in profit, and then I think I gave specific financial figures maybe for 2023. So yeah, it's like, if you want people to believe in you, there's nothing better than transparency. And given I would scoop other people's financials if I got them, why not scoop my own?
Allison 25:00
Totally, and has that experience of having to communicate as newcomer the publication, given you a different view on how communications and branding and, you know, any empathy for founders in that process?
Eric 25:14
Reporters are so annoying. I put on events. They come and they're like, let me into your VIP dinner. I'm like, did you write anything about this event? You know, it’s just… So definitely, yeah, I'm very aware of the courting reporters and how annoying they are to be wrangled. They go to everywhere free. They have no sense of like business a lot of the time, they don't understand why… Yeah, it can. They can be sort of annoying, definitely. So I, I appreciate the challenge of getting reporters to do what you want. Obviously, the value of reporters is that they call their own shots. So yeah, I feel like there are lots of pieces to it where I have empathy. I think I wrote in one of my reflections that, you know, in the beginning I said, Oh yeah, I'll be a founder. I'll like, get it. But I think I was sort of, like, skeptical. You know, it's like, certainly my audience wanted to hear that, and then it took a couple years to actually do the thing. And then you really do start to get some of the lessons that founders get. I think the biggest shift is just the sense that like creation is like an app, something that happens, like reporters can sort of view the world and be like, Why did you go this way instead of that way? And a lot of times, I think the entrepreneurial response is like, “This wouldn't have existed at all, like the hard choice you're judging me for wouldn't have happened if this thing hadn't been created.” And so I think I have a lot more empathy for the sense that, like, man, if somebody has willed something valuable and good into being, maybe they're making sort of minor, strategic decisions you disagree with. But there should be a little bit more gratitude for the fact that the thing came into existence in the first place.
Sean 26:45
Part of the founder journey is also figuring out, like, who's my perfect audience? I mean, you mentioned, obviously, you're writing for this VC world, and you're writing in shorthand. And you want people to know, not only that, Bill Gurley is this famous investor and that he's really tall, and all this stuff, like, it's like the all the stuff, like, you know, is inside. But like, in your mind. Like, how is that kind of ideal reader audience evolving for you? And does that shape, like, do you think about that, or are you just kind of crippling on, like, what you know?
Eric 27:11
It’s the insider. I mean, I want, like, total saturation and venture capital firms. I'd like every founder to be reading it, and every future founder, and every BD person and every PR person. So I think people will care about, like, the story of Silicon Valley, who's making moves and really trying to understand what's going on. It'd be nice to have some of the aspirin class, you know? I think one thing TechCrunch and people have done well is that they still get this sort of, like, person who's not really in it, but sort of wants to be, or is adjacent to it. I think I've almost succeeded in, like, a way that I'm grateful, where it's like, yeah, the insiders personally knew me, and we're reading it. And then I sort of, like, work backwards, and in some ways I'm waiting… You know, over time, the sort of people who, like, track the insiders, start to realize, oh, like, this is a thing, and I'm happy to have grown that way. So I think there'll be just sort of like reaching audiences that “get it” a little less. And certainly, as you know, I pursue sponsors for my events, and want, you know, the big public tech company brands to get it, it's useful for them to understand what I'm about. But no, I mean, at the end of the day, when it needs to be awesome for the true insider doing the thing, and that's always the north star, and hopefully other people sort of figure it out. The more signs there are that this is what the true Silicon Valley insider is reading.
Sean 28:34
I guess, like, I mean, for this space. I mean, Allison has seen this firsthand. I've seen it like, you know, you look at a TechCrunch you look at like the arc of what Silicon Valley is. And you know, it's a state of mind versus a place. And that state of mind could that state of mind could go to India, that state of mind could go to London, that state of mind could be all over the world. I know you had been to London recently, and there's a lot that's unbound about this place in great ways. But it also means that, like, you can expand and grow in many different ways, and that five-person organization could be a 50-person organization. So how do you think about that?
Eric 29:08
Yeah, I mean, I don't think… I think Silicon Valley is online. Ryan Hoover at X Product Hunt said that to me during the pandemic, and that's always stuck with me. I mean, I think the pandemic really accelerated that. I live in New York. I still think San Francisco's the center of the tech universe. I was constantly over there. I would do India. I do China. I mean, we're in London. In some ways, I didn't realize London was going to be hard or it, you know, it's like, in some ways, you know, you spend money and you solve your problems. We hired someone to pay taxes. We hired like a local event company. And so it hasn't been insane. I think I underestimated that some big companies really like, Oh, our sponsorship dollars in Europe are totally different than America. Like, that's not how Newcomer sees the world. It's just sort of like, Oh, they're tech people, and tech people fly places. And so I could imagine someday getting, like, an India ecosystem reporter assigned. That'd be fun. I, you know, want to be responsive to where VCs are going. You know, I follow VC dollars. I see them as a sign of what's happening. And so we pick what events we're doing based on what investors are investing in, and the more they're opening up offices or sending people places, the more we'll be active there as well.
Allison 30:21
Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And we, I mean, we touched on this earlier, but given VC is your audience, and you look at it in a really global way, obviously trust in the media is that absolute nadeer right now and nowhere more so than in tech, where I think the go direct anthem is really a symptom of that lack of trust and wanting more control over the message, which is antithetical to media. How do you think about that? And does that manifest itself in your in your reporting or in your decision-making at all that message? Or are you like I can afford to ignore this?
Eric 30:54
I mean, I've thought a lot about it. You know, we had a whole podcast for a while that was about the relationship between tech and media. I mean, I think part of it is just trying to build my own reputation. Certainly, I sort of navigate these two worlds where people ask me to, like, see a version of my podcast before it goes out or whatever. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't do that. Like I'm media. And on the other hand, I'm way more lon-term oriented than, I think, a lot of reporters. I just think when your name is on the publication, you're, like, I’m not trying to screw over, like key players in Silicon Valley over, like, some minor scoop. I'm trying to, like, have them clear-eyed giving me information. So it is just a world where people can build their own brands and, you know, try to have a very specific reputation for being trusted, but independent and critical and positive and sort of a fair mix. I think the go direct thing... I mean, in some ways, you know, Elon's sort of storyline, whip sign, and the inconsistency of it like, I think people know that they can't just trust, like the billionaires themselves, all in has gotten ridiculous, you know, in terms of just, like, can't expect sort of an honest picture of the world, and so in some ways, you know, I do think there's nothing wrong with bias. Like, I have bias, but like, just, like, information that's not really trying to serve the reader and not transparent doesn't sustain and so I just sort of believe that building a trusted brand over time will work out.
Sean 32:32
Speaking of trusted brand, I mean, we've gone through a lot of different phases of venture capital in Silicon Valley, and some of them are kind of more elevated than others. I would say this if this era is not necessarily very elevated in terms of brand. And you just mentioned the online podcast and like, if you were giving advice to quote/unquote venture capital, like, what would you tell them about the kind of the overall brand of venture capital externally, as you talk to people. Especially folks like in New York, or adjacent to it, or you're talking to a ton of founders too, or looking at, obviously, venture capital from almost a customer perspective. Maybe I'm over-sensitive, but I look at things like all-in and a lot of the noise around venture capital right now, and a lot of the people who draw in the attention, and I don't think are particularly representative of the class as a whole, but I also don't see the rest of the industry kind of filling the value.
Eric 33:27
Exactly. I know, I agree with that. I mean, the guy who created Succession, I'm blanking on his name, just had, I think he has a short show or something.
Allison 33:35
Did you watch it here?
Eric 33:40
Silicon Valley people? I haven't. Mountain Head, I think.
Allison 33:40
I loved… it hurt me how bad it was.
Eric 33:46
It really did. But, like, it's, it's clearly anti-tech anti tech, and sort of making fun of this sensibility. I'm not the scholar of, like what Joe Public thinks about venture capital. In some ways, I'm part of the problem and insulated it sort of deep in industry and much more attuned to what founders think. But, but, yeah, I agree. There's this weird dynamic where, sort of the pro-Trump really sort of bro-y VC voices are the loudest, and we haven't seen the sort of like states person-like brands. I mean, come on, General Catalyst, Mamoon, Kleiner Perkins, like some of these firms that are talked a lot about sustainability and want to be, you know, are sort of more Democrat-aligned. They've just decided, I think, not to like, be super loud on political issues at the peak of Trumpism. And I'm sure they'll sort of like, come back over time as it seems a little friendlier, but yeah, you wish, I mean credit to the Founders Fund people. They're just like, so loud and part of their brand is being strident. I think it's hard to have sort of the statesman type brand when to be a statesman right now is to cozy up to Trump. And so it's… it fits into some of the weird like Democratic Party lost in the wilderness attitude, which is like, what's it look like to be sort of a principled, sort of left-leaning person when you still have to work with power? And so, I think people haven't really figured that out. It's meant that the loudest voices are the Trumpian ones. And hopefully, as Trump's approval ratings fall and Democrats pick up votes in the midterms, you know, powerful people are responsive to where power shifts, and so the message will start to shift. I don't know. I'm curious what you two think.
Sean 35:28
I've struggled a lot with it, and I don't necessarily think it has to be politically-oriented or the lens has to be politics in the first place. Obviously, there's issues that kind of touch just social impact of tech, a lot that tinge into policy. But you know, you can have a very reasonable conversation around this, like state of AI and like, where that's going, and like, all these things that you know aren't necessarily Republican or Democrat.
Eric 35:56
But they all get coded. We're all tribes now, like, safety stuff gets you know…
Sean 36:01
I mean, I think trust and safety is a great thing. That's like, why would you not lean into trust and safety? And like, and I that's a void where I think, like, I really would push back, and I would say, like, if there are leaders who can get into that and talk about that, you know, basically paint where the where the future is going. I mean, the reality is, like, with tech and tech policy and love these issues. It says, as you as you know, it just every generation makes the same mistakes. Every generation doesn't think about how like these tools will impact normal humans and then policies that impact them.
Eric 36:34
I mean, I think Anthropic is doing it really well, in the sense that they have the actual technical credibility to say, Okay, we're worried here. We ran this experiment. We have things to actually reveal. I think, you know, even though I'm a pretty, sort of left-leaning person, I got sort of annoyed with some of the like, I don't know, social media paranoia and safetyism stuff from people who feel like very disconnected from the actual….
Sean 37:01
I'm on Blue Sky, I'm aware.
Eric 37:03
Oh, man, you're on Blue Sky. See, I'm, I'm still on Twitter. That's, you know, I I'm this sort of one sort of tweeting, like, you know, we saw this Trump thing coming. It was a disaster. But I'm doing on Twitter, not on Blue Sky. I think if I were on Blue Sky, it dragged me to the right. Like, I don't think, like, I'm a classic, sort of oppositional type person. So it's if the goal is to stay somewhat on the left, it's better for me to be on Twitter than to see people on Blue Sky, because I get dressed.
Sean 37:30
I just, I just want to laugh once, and I can't do that on Blue Sky. I know, you know, it seems…
Allison 37:35
Bummer. So one other thing on sort of the statesmanship point, Eric, is that we seem to live in a world now where that statesmanship style of communicating is less effective than just sort of scoring points. And one person who exemplifies that in a big way is Chamath, who obviously you've taken on in in both coverage and on social. What other rants do you have up your sleeve? Anybody else you have some perspectives on?
Eric 38:04
You know, I want to stay feisty. I think it’s key to my brand, especially even as I'm sort of partnering with people and stuff, I think that's super important. So I'm open for ideas. I don't know that if I had a specific person, I would reveal it. I mean, Chamoth is so singular in his grift, and it's amazing how well it works. I mean, I hate to say it, but his Substack makes more subscriber revenue than mine. He's higher on the leaderboard. So the grift, he keeps winning. He's… people don't seem to care. It's amazing how much the public still is enamored. Many of his business partners leave disgruntled after working with him. He changes the terms of his agreements with them to claw back money successfully. Yeah, people leave unhappy when they work with him. And it's, it's sad, honestly, in an era of internet brands like, I think, you know, TV didn't solve this either. Like, you could go on TV and everybody could hate you in the real world. And I feel like we solve this problem in the internet world. And I really, I think this is a problem technologists should be trying to solve, which is just like, how do we make sure that like somebody's brand, like in their family and among their friends, like corresponds to their public brand? Because I think having this world where you can have… be sort of Rudy Giuliani on like Fox News, but have everybody around you totally disgruntled with you, you know, I think that's not good for the world. So hopefully there's… that closes together. I don't have the solution other than somebody's… the disconnect becoming so large that then I have to find, then I report on it and write about and write a sort of detailed narrative. I guess after this podcast, I'll ask you for who you thought I should say, but this is, I don't have a specific person that I'm targeting now, and if, if I did, I'd, you know, I'd write this story.
Allison 39:55
Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, another topic that you write about a lot, and obviously, is part of my world in a deep way, is obviously AI. And so I'm curious, are we just gonna be talking about this only forever, or are there other topics you see coming up in the next year that could bubble to the surface? From your vantage point?
Eric 40:15
Every company being sort of appended with.com, I think this sort of AI will eventually fade, and people will understand individual categories of things. And so I think everything will be AI, but just as people become more familiar, the language will become more precise, and we'll have what will feel like different conversations, even though they’ve sort of been subsumed by this giant wave. But, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm sort of a cynical reporter by disposition. I was hanging out with like Mickey Malka Ribbit in 2014 when he was diving into crypto. I should have just quit my job then and just done everything he did. But I didn't. And I remain, you know, disillusioned by a lot of parts of crypto, but when I saw what was happening with generative AI, you could actually play with ChatGPT, I was like, Oh, my God, this is, like a real thing. No grift. And, you know, started a conference, and just sort of leaned into it. So I'm definitely a true believer that this is a major change. I mean, covering tech, people have been waiting for a platform shift. They needed it, you know. It's like, in some ways, like SaaS, you know, it's like, Okay, we have a business model shift. It's not totally a technology shift. This one. It's like, wow, there. It feels like, you know, there are a lot of capabilities that people need to sort of have handed to them. You know, I'm always shocked talking to sort of people in the real world that aren't deeply embedded in AI, and so I think there's a lot of value there already that can be turned into products, and a lot of value to be created. So I'm, I remain super bullish on AI. I don't, I don't know. I've written skeptically about OpenAI's valuation, and like they are still a non-profit, and they haven't struck a deal with Microsoft. So I think there are particular issues around the foundation model valuations that could take a little air out of the sales, but overall, I think the technology is so real that this trend overall will continue.
Allison 42:13
Yeah, and are you using AI in reporting and research or in writing it all? In analysis? How is it showing up? For you?
Eric 42:21
I use ChatGPT mostly as a sort of thought partner, organizing. You know, I think it helps me sort of make decisions, manage to do lists, keep track of people. It's honestly getting really good in the last couple months. It's suggesting… like, I'm like, I want to build this data scraper project. Who should I reach out to? And literally, it suggested a person I had already DM’d. It suggested five people, one of them I'd already reached out to. Like, I asked it to write, like, a consulting political memo for a friend, deep research, like, very detailed game plan for them. Like, so I find it super valuable in like, Who did I just meet with? I hear random facts I remember, and it'll know. So I'm glad it's moved from, I guess, famous people only, to now it like really has a sense of everybody on LinkedIn, seemingly. So that's super helpful. I've been vibe coding with Lovable and Vercel, and I got Quadcode on my computer. I do sort of hit a wall where I've got a working design, and then some bug appears, and I have no idea. That's sort of a little more professional curiosity than actual value. But yeah, I find I go to ChatGPT when I have questions about, you know, why is this my house leaking, or whatever, you know, like every everything, we immediate, my wife and I immediately, like, check in with ChatGPT.
Sean 43:44
I was literally, yesterday, I was like, I was like, cleaning out my dishwasher. This is sexy stuff and, like, there's this pool of water, right? But I'm like, my first thought was, I'm gonna take a photo of this and ask ChatGPT, is this normal? Like, what's this water here?
Eric 43:58
Right? Right? Big decisions in my life. You know, it will have been a thought partner around which is just sort of like crazy to think. Like ChatGPT was, like, consulted, whether it's in the business, tactical decision or personal thing. It was like, what furniture, which couch am I gonna like? You know?
Sean 44:15
Should I do this podcast with Sean Garrett, right?
Eric 44:18
It's, it's just funny. Who say, Oh, it's so it hallucinates all the time. I mean, even if it was like total bullshit, the like psychological influence that it already has on a lot of people, and that it is, along with my wife, one of the top things giving me input on whether I should make certain decisions is like…
Sean 44:35
Just you should make sure that your wife is number one.
Eric 44:40
Just, yeah, she but she's also asking ChatGPT, so how do we it's like a marriage level of influence.
Allison 44:46
But on that, you know, recently, Sam Altman tweeted that he thinks that the government shouldn't be able to access these logs of conversations with ChatGPT. What do you… What are your thoughts on that?
Eric 45:02
I mean, I think they should be vitally private. I mean, I don't think the government should be able to, like, use face ID to get on my phone, either. So, yeah, I would love to see a lot of regulations limiting how much the government can just be like, oh, all those constitutional amendments we created in a world where you know your information wasn't, like, all nicely organized in one place. Like, obviously, those are principles apply to a digital world. So yeah. I’m with Sam Altman on…
Allison 45:26
For me too, in the level of personal information and sort of human content that you put in.
Eric 45:33
Even in search, I should be able to plan a crime. And then…
Sean 45:40
Eric, there's, obviously, it's a communications podcast and it’s… oriented. And, you know, you obviously worked with a lot of communicators previously named PR people. We talked a lot about some of these companies that are that are doing interesting stuff and the psychological influence and like, what? What are you who you seeing doing a good job with communications? Who less so in your view? And what advice would you give these fine folks?
Eric 46:07
Companies that have great CEO spokespeople, to me, are doing a good job. So like Satya Nadella at Microsoft, Nvidia with Jensen. Like, I think, just like having these, like captivating CEOs who… I mean, honestly, going back to our statesman conversation, I do think Satya Nadella is probably the closest we have to sort of wielding this like “I'm a responsible institutionalist who, you know, has real values and is not totally just chasing after the wind.” So I think those are companies… I mean, Nvidia is going to have to have to balance the sort of like, hype and everything. So maybe in 12 months, I'll be like, Oh, they should have managed the expectations a little bit. But those are two that come to mind.
Sean 46:51
Any like, newer companies that have popped up on your radar, where you're just like, Oh, that was the way they the way they presented themselves, so it's like, super interesting? By the way, just so you know, this is always a hard question for us too, right?
Eric 47:02
It's a hard question. It's hard, you know, it's like, do you give the communicator? It's hard to know, you know, a lot of times like products and leadership, sure, that's what you see externally. And so I'm like, Oh, I don't know, Granola is like, a buzzy, cool app and lovable. Like, I do think applications where you can sort of use it, and sort of it proves its coolness on its own…
Allison 47:25
I do think there's advice contained within that too, Eric, just the fact that with AI, there's, it's implicit on the company to need to show, not tell.
Eric 47:33
Right. Yeah, there's, there's so much talk that it's like you want to be able to use it and see the value and decide for yourself, it's definitely a world where, you know, developers sort of drive the conversation. I mean, you can, like the coding wars, you know, it's like Cursor was sort of hot… was really hot. And then you could hear the excitement around Codium, Windsurf coming up just before the deal came out. You know, OpenAI is reportedly buying it. And now I'm starting to hear like Devin, which had been sort of lampooned and probably over-pitched itself. Now, I think people are getting excited about pure coding agents. And so, I think that company could very well have a moment. And so, in some ways, it's like the missteps and the false hype, all of it, I think, is much smaller than like product people love and evangelize about. Now, people move on pretty quickly, so it's hard, hard to get that to sustain. But yeah, I do think AI is a moment where a great product is very visible to people, and so winning the product war is sort of winning the communications war.
Allison 48:43
Yeah. I mean, we ask everybody at the end of the podcast the same question about what's capturing their attention right now. So prepare for that one. But before we get into it, one thing that's been capturing my attention is, obviously working in this industry, the media layoffs. And you know, how much of that do you think is related to AI? Are we starting to see the search traffic decimating some of these, some of these businesses? And do you have ideas or solutions, like, does everybody have a Substack in the future, or is that unsustainable?
Eric 49:14
So many publications were built on sort of a platform inflection. Many of those inflections didn't sustain. But it's like, Buzzfeed figured out Facebook, like Business Insider could get lots of web traffic. And, you know, I think AI certainly isn't delivering that new wave for media. So then it's like, okay, where, where do we find the engagement? And, you know, a similar and like, Twitter is literally sort of choking external links, and I think other platforms are copying that, so it's just like a hard time to get people to come to your platform. And so, I think that's really hard for media. I don't think AI yet… I mean, I think a lot of these publications are enthusiastic… Or the main management is enthusiastic about figuring out how they can use AI. And I don't really begrudge them, like I want to figure it out too. So, yeah, it's a really hard time in reporting. I don't think there's a great business model. You know, I'm in events. I think people are very enthusiastic about events. But, you know, it's a hard, hard business to scale. So it's something that works well for a small team like mine, but if you needed to justify a huge editorial staff, it would become hard. And I think part of the problem is like, I mean, you look at like Noah Smith, Matt Iglesias, I mean, they run super lean, and a lot of the value sort of accrues to them. And I think there is, you know, the internet has created this sort of winner business, and you know that I'm somewhat a beneficiary of. And so, I think it's just hard for sort of, like, larger news organizations, when it's easier and easier for the news consumer to find sort of the dominant writer, reporter, or columnist. And so, yeah, it's a difficult situation. I do think we're just going to shift from media brands to people sort of brands. And so, I think that will be good for some individual reporters and potentially bad for overarching media companies. So I do think… I am always advising reporters to lean into the personal.
Allison 51:33
How many of those can we sustain? Like, is there a world where we need a no-opinion Newcomer bundle or like, like, how does, how does this end up? Because, I mean, I feel like I have an unmanageable amount of subscriptions, which is fine, because that's my job, but I think for the average person, there's like a there's like a limit.
Eric 51:50
I mean, hopefully, you know, we each have such a clear niche that there's some overlap around the edges, but it's like… I mean, when I launched, I joined a Discord group with Casey Noon, a platformer Ryan Broderick, who had garbage day and a number of other like, four other writers. And honestly, like, our communities were extremely different, even though, like, Casey and Ryan, like, you know, we have some similar overlapping interests. Casey's writing a lot about AI right now. Like, honestly, like, I'm sure we have overlapping subscribers, but I think the vast majority are not, and so I don't know that a bundle, even for these pretty closely related newsletters, would make that much sense. You have to be really niche. Like, maybe it's like, Oh, you have to be even more narrow, but it's like, deliver for your you know, 1000 true fans in a great way. Right, exactly. If anything, it's like, yeah, I the more I become B2B, it's like, oh, really, you know. And nothing's new. You know, there were, like, industry, you know, trade publications, and Esther Dyson wrote a letter, you know, like, these things have existed, and so if anything, it's like, oh, maybe I should be, you know, $1,000 for, you know, half the number of people instead of $200 for, you know…
Sean 53:11
Now you're talking like a real CEO.
Allison 53:13
Yeah, my VC ears are perking up.
Sean 53:16
Yeah, exactly. So, Eric, what? What is capturing your attention these days?
Eric 53:20
I hope this isn't trite, but I am very enthusiastic about the agent moment in AI. I feel like there's been a lot of talk about agents for a while. I mean, I think deep research is, you know, and OpenAI generally, being able to have its applications access the internet, go do something over time, is really exciting. I'm sort of constantly throwing down this gauntlet of when, when will we let agents make spending decisions on their own? Like, I think that will be the narrative moment for agents. To me, once it's like, The New York Times can say, oh, my god, somebody just let a computer go buy like, you know, your dresses for the upcoming, coming wedding or whatever. And like, I don't think that's that far away. And these systems get hooked into our email and are acting on our behalf. Like, I think that's going to be another crazy moment, like ChatGPT, and I think Silicon Valley is really gearing up for agents to be a big deal. So it's definitely something I'm watching.
Allison 54:17
I can't wait. I'm just going to be like, walking around my neighborhood drinking wine. Go to my calls, respond to my emails. Bring it on.
Thank you for joining us today for Attention Shift for today's deep dive on communication strategy. Check out our sponsors, Delve, at Delve.news and Mike Worldwide at MW.com Please like and subscribe to attention shift on Apple, Spotify, or your podcast platform of choice, and we'll see you in a couple weeks for our next episode.