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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Jerrad Lopes (00:01)
Dr. Kathy, so grateful for your time today and to get to spend some time with you and to hear your wisdom. I oddly enough, I, my brother in law told me about you and your work and it's odd because he's not a dad. He doesn't have any kids. And I know you do so much in the parenting realm. But he said you, Jared, you have to have this woman on. She's just wonderful and has so much wisdom.
Kathy (00:18)
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (00:24)
And so I'm grateful that we had a chance to connect and to have you on today. For the audience who may not be familiar, tell us who you are and what you're up to these days.
Kathy (00:32)
Right, well first of all, I already love your brother-in-law and thanks for trusting him. That's way cool. Yeah, so I'm Kathy Cook. I am the founder and president of Celebrate Kids. We're based in Fort Worth, Texas. I do parent education. I work with teachers in all kinds of schools, do a lot of pro-life work, work with youth pastors, work with kids of all ages in school, church, and conference settings. Just love supporting the family. So happy to be here with your dads. Dad is so important, the way that he leads, the way that he follows wisdom like
what we could provide today, hopefully. So yeah, I'm former teacher, coach, school board member, professor. Just love traveling and writing and supporting guys like you. Really grateful to know you and what you're doing here.
Jerrad Lopes (01:14)
Thank you. Thank you. Well, maybe we'll just hang there for a second. You and you talked about the importance of dads because you've had a lot of experience working with parents and working with children over many years. ⁓ From your perspective, what have you seen? ⁓ How important is it? I know I'm kind of leading a softball question here, but how important is it? from your perspective, that a dad does stay engaged based on your experience.
Kathy (01:41)
Yeah, I better say very important, right? Otherwise the show's gonna be short. No, that's okay. I'm... No!
Jerrad Lopes (01:44)
Yeah, we'll just cut it off. Yeah, I know that's kind of a softball. That was kind of ⁓ a lame question to ask, but I'm just, you
know, from your perspective.
Kathy (01:53)
No, I hear your heart in that. Like you want your audience to get it. It's extremely important. So, ⁓ you know, a lot of dads didn't have good experiences growing up. A lot of dads are potentially struggling with any number of things. The stress that are on dads and moms today is just insane. So what a privilege to be here. Dads need to connect with their sons. Dads need to read in front of their sons. It's extremely important. Dads can be strength for daughters. You daughters who don't have a good relationship with their dads will look for a man.
to affirm their beauty. So guys gotta be really careful, but there was, I'll say right up front, dads need to affirm the beauty of their children and everything else. Like there was a friend of mine nicknamed his daughter Pretty. And I thought at the beginning that's okay, but at three, four, five years old, he was still calling her Pretty. And I said, Roy, she's gonna believe that all you know about her is that she's pretty. And she's gonna be scared when she grows up one day and doesn't feel pretty. That awkward stage that all girls go through. You have got to make sure that you tell her the other things that she is.
So one of the things that I say when I'm in front of parents is that dads affirm that they're cute, pretty and beautiful, move up the ladder of adjectives, if you will, and tell them why. That they, you you're beautiful because you behave and respect your mom. You know, you're beautiful because man, that color makes your eyes pop. You're beautiful because your heart is oriented toward Jesus Christ. And so tell them they're beautiful. You can tell them that they're cute, that they're happy, that they're yours, but also tell them that they're creative and clever and wise.
and loving and compassionate and resilient and careful and diligent and that they love their grandmother really well when they walk slow and you don't scare grandma when you run around her like your cousin. So just affirm all that they are. They need the man, the father to affirm. Really, really important.
Jerrad Lopes (03:39)
Why is it important or how is it different for a dad, a man to speak those kind of identity statement ⁓ over their child? there a difference when it comes from a dad and from a father?
Kathy (03:54)
It is different. In many cases, the mom is the more natural nurturer, so children expect it from the mom. In most families, the mom is the one who does the pickup and delivery at school or does the major work in the homeschooling or serves the meals and cleans up after the kids and changes the diapers. So oftentimes, children are with their mom more in transitional experiences, and I think they begin to expect mom is the one who has what I would call heart language. Men don't have as many emotional vocabulary words at their ready.
Men, and I teach this to boys all the time, men and boys have as many emotions as women and girls, but men are lacking vocabulary. That's not a slam against men, don't hang up. I respect you guys, it's a true gender difference between men and women. So when a man makes the effort to use emotional language, I think kids pick up on that, I think it's significant. Also, I would say, know, God is male, and without apology, God is male.
And so, and I say that because I hang out with some people who don't think that he is. ⁓ my goodness. And so the male voice, the dad, the uncle, the grandfather, the stepdad, who is loving children with the spoken word, it's significant. know, kids become who we tell them they are. If they respect us, they become who we tell them they are. And when you, as a dad, tell the children who they are in Christ, it can change everything.
You know, you're chosen, adopted, deeply loved, unconditionally valued, complete in Christ. You're a conqueror. know, Samantha, you are a conqueror. It says that in the holy, accurate word of God, because you know Jesus. That means something coming from the dad who's the protector, provider, warrior on behalf of his family.
Jerrad Lopes (05:33)
Yeah, I mean, just as a, in my own personal story, I did not have a father growing up to tell me who I was. And, ⁓ and I feel like I have spent the rest of my life kind of chasing identity and looking for, my worth and all kinds of things. And, you know, I love my dad and we've, there's been lots of restoration, ⁓ in the, recent years, but it definitely can feel the lack of having that kind of somebody speaking identity over me.
Kathy (05:38)
Hmm
Jerrad Lopes (06:03)
So yeah, I feel that that question was kind of personal and it's something I'm trying to reclaim for my four kids is to speak identity over them, you know, so that they don't chase it elsewhere. You mentioned reading, ⁓ which is I'm curious to what is the research on dad's reading? I actually read to my kids at night and that I didn't
Kathy (06:07)
I love it.
Good for you. Good for you. Yeah.
Good.
Jerrad Lopes (06:27)
do that because I read anything about it. just did that because I could tell my wife was exhausted at the end of the day and it felt like I could take the last 15 minutes and give her a break. ⁓ But what's the is there some research on that? Why is that important for
Kathy (06:32)
Uhhh
yeah,
well first of all, love that you loved your wife in that way. Right, my PhD is actually in reading. I used to teach people how to teach children how to read. So I've studied this for a long time. Boys tend to lag in literacy versus girls. They tend to develop their reading, writing, spelling ⁓ vocabulary later in life and that's partly because they don't see that reading matters to dads. Dads are in the garage, dads are busy, dads are playing games, I hope.
Jerrad Lopes (06:45)
wow.
Kathy (07:04)
dads potentially are gaming and we've to be careful of how much time we spend there. Of course, dads are mowing the lawn and dads are doing really important things to support the family. But if little boys don't see their dads read, they don't think reading is for men. They think it's a girl thing. So I want men to read to their children, boys and girls. And the other reason to read to your kids is that's when they feel most secure. Like I bet Jared, when you read to your kids, I bet you don't allow anything to interrupt you. I bet you're all in, right?
Jerrad Lopes (07:33)
Yeah, yeah. Well, they interrupt me. was laughing because they interrupt me and that, you know, I get frustrated because they're wanting to ask a million questions in the story. Yeah. Right. Yes.
Kathy (07:34)
they're there on your lap or they're.
Well, yeah. Yeah, but you're not going to take a phone call. You know, you're going to be all in there. They're
probably touching you. There's a bonding that takes place when we read to our kids. And it's really, really important. I'm happy to talk about that. Come back and let's do 30 minutes on it.
Jerrad Lopes (07:55)
Yeah, that's
it. That's really interesting. I one one thing I wanted to pick your brain on before we get to your new book is you talked about different learning styles for children. You wrote a book on this and I thought that was so interesting. This has been kind of a daily battle in our house. We homeschool our kids. I have four children. My oldest is a boy and then we have three girls. And one of the frustrating things for my wife who takes on kind of the primary homeschooler in our family is
Kathy (08:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jerrad Lopes (08:24)
how my son, my son does not learn in the way that she learned growing up. And, and, and some of it is to that reading that you were just talking about. And I'm like, we know he's a smart kid. He's so creative and he has all these other outlets that he loves pursuing, but the traditional like sit down and get your homework done this way can be very frustrating to him. ⁓ And, you know, I've heard you talk about how certain kids can feel like, well, am I dumb?
Kathy (08:29)
Uh-huh.
Jerrad Lopes (08:49)
Am I not smart because I don't learn in a particular way? I personally am so terrible at math. I've told myself a million times. I'm so dumb. Like I remember telling myself as a kid, I'm just I'm not as smart as all these other kids. I'm just really dumb. So I know you wrote a whole book on this, but can you kind of unpack the different learning styles that kids have?
Kathy (09:07)
Yeah, sure. So the book is called Eight Great Smarts. There are several learning styles we could unpack, but the one that I'm most passionate about would be multiple intelligences, that all of us and all of our kids have eight different ways of learning. I'm glad you home educate your kids because it can be the best way to teach them outside of the box, if you will. The school system is very word and logic. We think with words, we think with logic, which means we ask questions. We tend to be the ones who think we're smart in school.
But we all know people who did well in school and they're not doing well in life. And we all know people who did not do well in school and they're doing very well in life. And that would be evidence that all eight smarts matter. All of us have all eight. All of your children have all eight. If I did MRIs of their brain, I would be able to convince you that that's a true statement. When we're being picture smart, we think with pictures, with our eyes, we're visual, imaginative, creative visually. That might be your son.
Music smart people think with rhythms and melodies. They'll make up a song for anything. They'll hear the song in the squeaky chair and Can't stop listening to it so they don't hear what you're saying to them and then body smart kids think with movement and touch So these are the movers shakers rattlers and rollers there There's boys and girls in this category boys are often overdiagnosed as ADHD What they are is actually body smart and if you would let them pace and use a rocking chair, they would probably learn better
And then nature smart kids think with patterns. They know it's a blue bird, not a blue jay, because they remember where the blue is on the body or the wing of the bird. And they see that was and saw is a pattern. H2O is a pattern. They know that this is an alligator and not a crocodile because they have an ability to remember the pattern, which is not one of my strengths, so that's hard for me. They'll like biology better than earth science, or they'll like biology and earth science better than general science, chemistry, and physics.
And then the last two are super important. People smart, people smart, people think with other people. They're good at reading body language. They have an awareness of who's in the room. They're good at persuading without debate. They can convince without arguing. Those are two very important skills. I would prioritize the smart, actually, above all the others. And then self smart is these kids think quietly inside of themselves. They're often invisible at home. Dads have to go on the lookout for these kids.
because they hide in their own thoughts. They love quiet, peace, privacy, and space. So they'll go away from the kitchen table earlier than the other kids and seek quiet. And we do that. And this can actually be conflict in marriage. you're people smart and you think with people and you're married to a self-smart person who thinks inside of herself, that can be a conflict. But it's a beautiful combination. God was generous to give us all eight. The book I wrote is called Eight Great Smarts. And if we understand who our children are,
how they learn, it can change discipleship, it can influence the God of the Bible they're looking for. It's my own story, I came to Christ for wisdom, not love, because I'm logic smart. And that's a whole nother topic. But yeah, I appreciate you asking. It is a really good way, you for dads who are listening and they're frustrated because they don't know their kids well and they really do want to know them, it's a great, great way to look at kids. You know, what ticks them off, what turns them on, what kind of games do they prefer?
What do they like as a gift? What do they spend their money on? What gets them into trouble? Is it talking or moving or drawing or quiet? ⁓ Those are the kinds of things that understanding will help you with.
Jerrad Lopes (12:29)
Well, yeah, even as you were naming them off, I was trying to think I was kind of categorizing each of my children and their tendencies. So you're saying each child, each of us has the eight tendencies, but we lean more heavily on one or two or like how does okay.
Kathy (12:44)
A few.
The older they get, the easier it is to see the strengths. When they're little, they're being awakened. They were born with the capacity for all eight, but they have to be awakened by our nurturing and the activities that we share with them, the field trips we take, the books we read, the games we play. So you'll begin to see it. By the time they're five to eight years old, you should begin to see, my kid is always using his hands. He's an engineer in the making. He loves Legos. He's probably a picture smart, logic smart, body smart kid.
The kid who reads all the time in spare time is probably a word smart kid. But they have all eight. But top four, bottom four is the way that I like to think about it. People who have an eclectic life, the earlier they're awakened, the better. So if you had a good childhood and they were awakened young and you had a good school experience, whether that be in a traditional brick and mortar school or at home, then it's likely that you'll have six or seven that you can see, I can easily go to these parts of the brain and maybe one or two that are weaker.
Jerrad Lopes (13:42)
And you said there was one that you prioritize or you would prioritize above the rest. Can you unpack that a little bit?
Kathy (13:47)
Yep.
Yeah, people smart kids are and people smart adults. We read body language well and then respond appropriately. So these are the children who walk up to you, Jared, like your kids, they walk up to you to ask you a favor and they want you to say yes, but you have no written all over your body. So they turn away and you're like, can I help you? And your kid is like, no. And you're like, I have time now when your kid is like, I don't care because, you know, I want you to say yes and you don't have yes on your face. So I'm coming back another time.
I think it's so important because it's how kids know who is safe for them. And because we're allowing them to look down and text and game, and we're not asking them to make eye contact and say please and thank you, they're not developing an ability to read body language. Is that person curious or confused? Is that person mad or just bored? Is that person on my side or manipulating me so that I'll think they're on my side? You gotta teach that skill to kids.
And the other reason it's so important is that we think with other people. People smart people collaborate, cooperate, persuade, convince, debate, but we do it with the other person in mind. We don't do it aggressively. We don't do it with a mean spirit. So I think the leaders, these are leaders, I think the leaders, really the dads who are listening who are going, man, that's me. That's why you're in a position of leadership at work and at church. And if somebody's listening and they're going, man, Dr. Kathy, I don't have much of that skill.
You can increase that skill through prayer and you could read my book and discover more about it. And that will give you more authority at home where you'll be able to convince, persuade, cooperate and collaborate with your wife and with your kids with it being a positive experience. So it's super important.
Jerrad Lopes (15:27)
Yeah, that's what I was going to say is I've always, another way that I've heard that said is EQ, emotional intelligence, the ability to kind of read a room or a person intuitively. And I guess what I've always thought is that is just an intuitive, you were born with that or you weren't born with that. And it seems like some people have no idea to read a room, but you're saying these, these skills can actually be developed.
Kathy (15:33)
Right.
Mm-mm.
Yes, I believe we have the capacity for all eight. Like I said, the research would support the idea that the earlier they're awakened, the greater the likelihood they're strength for a lifetime, but it's never too late. I've been teaching this for, wow, 40 years, and I can tell you the number of people who hear me or read my book, and then they're like, I started working on being more alert to the community around me or whatever, and I did discover more of that ability. We have to know it exists, right? You don't work on things if you don't know it's a possibility.
Jerrad Lopes (16:16)
Yeah.
Kathy (16:16)
But it's not just an intuition. You can learn a skill. I actually teach parents to, let's say that somebody's listening and they have a weaker people smart ability or they have a child who does and they can't read a room, they can't figure out that a boyfriend is really unhealthy for them and you're like, can't you see what I see? One of the ways that I like to awaken and improve the people smart ability is watch TV or a movie with no volume and look to see who's in charge of the conversation.
You can always tell. If you're people smart, you can tell. Without listening, can you tell who's mad, who's in control, who's being bullied, who the bully is, who's depressed versus who just wants to sit alone? You can teach the skill in a variety of ways.
Jerrad Lopes (17:02)
That's a really practical. I like that idea. That's a really practical exercise that somebody can do. When selfishly, I want to ask you before I move on ⁓ with the, I think you called it self-smart, which was the last one. The person that likes to be, they'll exit the room or conversation early because they like to be with themselves. As a dad, how does somebody parent a child ⁓ who is self-smart without getting frustrated? I might be asking selfishly. I might be, I might not, you know, this might be totally theoretical or it might not.
Kathy (17:04)
Thanks. Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Well, even if you're being selfish, there are many dads listening who have the same dilemma. It's harder to get to know them because they think deeply inside of themselves with reflection. They need quiet, peace, privacy and space. No question is easy. How was your day? And they're thinking, well, at 730, I would have said great. By eight o'clock, I would have said, okay. By 930, I was back to great. Then it was terrible. So I don't know. How was my day?
Jerrad Lopes (17:33)
Yeah.
Kathy (17:57)
because they think deeply about everything. So you've got to give them space. You walk by their room and you say, hey, in about 10 minutes, I'd love to hear about your day, rather than pouncing on them without any prep. And we give them space. We give them their swing set. One of the recommendations I make to the guys who do family devotions, like praise God that you're doing that, where you're reading scripture with your kids and with your wife. the lesson, introduce the topic, maybe,
sing a worship song, maybe read a scripture, and then give everybody six minutes of space and say, we're gonna go, we're just gonna scatter into the house, wherever you wanna go, I'm gonna set the timers, you've got six minutes, I want you to think of a personal example where this scripture has been true for you and a question you want somebody in the family to ask. Nobody's gonna be hurt by that independent time, but the self-smart kids are gonna be like, ⁓ cool, I get to go to wherever I want and think without anybody staring at me when I'm doing it.
Because if you stare at a self smart person while he's thinking he's like, would you just leave me alone? And it's really, really hard. So again, it can be challenging for them to open up, I think you have to be quieter and gentler with these kids and really give them time because if you ask a question, I guarantee you, you think it's easy and it's not because they will go deeply inside of themselves. And every answer needs to feel right. Challenging.
Jerrad Lopes (18:59)
Yeah.
Well, I'm all
yeah, I'm also married to a self smart woman and you know, we just actually came home from a speaking engagement where they were they asked her to speak as well and it was a Q &A and it's just a nightmare for her. She's just like, why do you make me do this? This is the worst thing ever. She's dreading it for because what's so interesting is she's she's probably the wisest woman I know. I mean, she just has such wisdom, but you put her on the spot. You ask her a question and have an audience stare at her. I mean, you could not have a more
Kathy (19:25)
huh. ⁓
⁓ sweet.
Jerrad Lopes (19:50)
nightmare scenario for her. She just was like, I hate you for this. This or you know, she didn't really but she, you know, it's like putting her on the spot like you were describing.
Kathy (19:52)
no, I'm so sorry.
So she needs to believe that she is very smart. It simply is a smart that interrupts that ability. Now she can learn to do that if she's called to do that, but she doesn't need to do that. And that would be the freedom that you would give her. I would say that if she'll gain experience and if the topic is super meaningful to her, if the topic is tight and narrow,
Jerrad Lopes (20:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kathy (20:19)
and she has great passion and wisdom on the topic, then it becomes easier. But she'll wrestle with it for 48 hours after the fact. She'll be thinking, that first parent, I should have remembered to tell him this. Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (20:26)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, that's totally her. She
does great in the podcast setting. So she'll sit with me sometimes. She hasn't been on in a while, but she'll sit with me and it's way less pressure for her because she knows I can edit if I need to, although I never have to because everything she says is great. And there's nobody staring at her, know, so it's a better environment for her to get her wisdom out. But I think that just speaks to how do we put our kids environments where they can really thrive? ⁓ And which is what I think you were saying with that devotional example is, know, how do I continue to lead this?
and allow their personality to still feel like this is not, this is low pressure and they can thrive in that environment. ⁓
Kathy (21:03)
And let me say
too, Jared, and I know that there's a lot we wanna talk about, but I wanna say that it's okay for the dads to like one kid more than another. You don't have to agree with me, but I'll say that love is unconditional. We love because God loves, we know that. We love because we have the capacity to be like Jesus. So we love unconditionally, without condition. But like is conditional.
Jerrad Lopes (21:12)
Whoa, that's so controversial. Please unpack it.
Kathy (21:31)
⁓ And you know, if you're a body smart guy and you would love athletics and you'd love changing the oil in your car, you don't like sitting still on a Saturday and you've got a kid who's like that, you're gonna relate more. And you're gonna be, that's the one you're gonna invite into the garage. Let's change the oil, you know, today's the day, you up with me? And if you have a kid who's not into physicality, isn't as body smart, you might have to work harder to relate. And so I just wanna honor you and say, you can get to know these kids.
If you have a music smart kid and you're not terribly into music, you can still have conversations about music and you can still find out what makes them tick and what turns them on. I just want to encourage you, it's okay to have different opinions about your kids. It's not okay to ignore them and it's not okay to not want to get to know them. However, it is understandable if there are some that you enjoy spending time with.
Jerrad Lopes (22:19)
Wow. Well, appreciate you unpacking that nuance. That's really helpful. I think that'll be really helpful for guys to hear. So yeah, so I know you wrote a new book and it's really how to about adult children and how a parent can relate to their adult children, revive any relationships that have maybe gone wrong there, continue to build intimacy in those relationships. Most of the guys listening to our show, I would say have kids 18 and under. So I think one thing that would be curious, I'm curious about is
Kathy (22:24)
I hope so.
Jerrad Lopes (22:47)
What can we do on this end as we are many of us raising preteens, teens who will be out of the house soon so that we can have thriving relationships with them when they leave the home and they become adults.
Kathy (22:58)
I actually love that question. I'm hoping that people in that situation will actually read my book and look at it as a preventative measure. Let me say this, that you've probably heard about adult children who are choosing to distance themselves from their parents, going no contact. Some of that is social media influencers. Some of that are actually counselors and therapists who are saying, you're an adult now, you don't need your parents, which just makes me nuts, because God ordained the family before the church, and the family matters forever and ever.
But one of the main reasons that adult children are saying to their moms and dads, hey, I don't need you anymore, is that they were over-parented. Meaning that we were too controlling. We did things that we moved the juice so they wouldn't spill it. Which is not foolish, and I'm not saying it's wrong. You said things like, and it's often the mom who does this, know, grab your lunch. Or you'll say, hey, isn't there a biology test tomorrow? Don't you want to go study? Or we'll say, hey, soccer trials are Monday. Don't you want to go to the backyard and practice, you know, dribbling the ball?
Those are helpful things when children are young. Usually your motivation is okay, although many parents parent so that they look good. So I'm gonna say to the dads, like this is your chance to go humble with me. If you have parented so that you look like you're a good dad, that's inappropriate. That's idol worship, where you're expecting your children to perform for you. And if you have a good day when they have a good day, you have a bad day when they have a bad day. I get that, that's a reason I wrote the book.
certainly not healthy to enmesh with them in that way. So the A way you can prevent the distancing later is to start to launch them now. You've always launched them. You launched them from a crib to a toddler bed to a bigger bed. From the trike to the two-wheeler with training wheels, you took the training wheels off and now they're driving. Like you've launched them, you used to sit with them when they did their homework. Now they do their homework in their own room. I mean, there's been all kinds of launching throughout your history of being a dad.
So now we just need to remember that and remember to get ready. And so I would also say Jared, let's teach them how to live life. Like, why do we think that just living with us is gonna give them all the tools they need? If you want your daughters to be safe on the road, teach them how to change a tire or get them a membership with AAA. Do you want your son or your daughter to be able to save money by changing oil if you have the kind of car where you can still change it?
yourself because it's not too complicated, teach them to do that. One of the things I would love us to teach kids is how to choose a church.
Like adults choose the church, right? You and your wife decided which church you guys would attend. And you took your kids into account if you had them back then. But now the first one you launch and they go off to trade or tech or military or career or early marriage, do they know how to find a church in their community? And how would they decide if it was a good church? So I think there's a lot of things that we assume they benefit from living with us, but they don't necessarily. Like what are your values? Do you tithe?
Jerrad Lopes (25:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Kathy (26:01)
And
you do offerings after the tithe? And are you pro-life? Why? Are you pro-constitution? Why have you taught those kinds of things? So think that's, those would be some of the quick comments I would make. Great question.
Jerrad Lopes (26:14)
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons that we love to homeschool is because it provides so many opportunities for us to talk about real life stuff. You know, I've opened checking accounts with my son, you know, you know, as he started his own little neighborhood business, you know, these types of things. But how does it how does it I'm curious, like, how does the leap happen from you should go practice dribbling because you have a you have a tryout on Monday to the adult who says I'm not going to talk to you anymore.
Kathy (26:21)
Yes. Yeah.
Good.
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (26:43)
You know, like what can
you kind of unpack that? Cause I think every, every parent who's listening to this show again, still has young ones. they're like, our biggest fear is that our kids are going to leave and say, I'm not, I'm, I'm choosing to jump on the bandwagon of never talking to my mom and dad again. I mean, that, that breaks my heart to even think about that thought. And so, and then also we feel a little bit like, I've probably moved the milk so she didn't spill it. And I've told my kids to go that homework assignment because you have a due on, I think I might've done that this morning, you know? So how do I, and does this mean they're not going to talk to me?
Kathy (26:56)
Right.
Yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (27:13)
And five years from now, like help me connect some of those dots, if you would.
Kathy (27:16)
It's so hard to connect because it feels like nonsense. It just because most of you are parenting very, very well right now where you're saying, you know, remember your lunch. It's really wise. What happens is when they get older, they don't want us in their business. Now they do need to grow up. So let me say this, Jared, when we over parent and we protect them at all costs, we remind them to do everything. They don't need to think. I mean, I've had adult children say I wasn't allowed to think in my home. I didn't need to think. My dad did all my thinking for me. He told me what to wear, who to date.
He even helped me decide what high school electives to take because he was sure that I would be a nurse. So again, over direction, controlling can be a negative. Now if anybody listening did that, you weren't bad. You all of us, you parented the best way you knew how. Don't look back with today's wisdom. Like if you've been listening to this podcast and you're much wiser now than you were, don't look back with this judgment, I was so stupid. No, you weren't.
You were insecure maybe as a dad, maybe you were immature in your dad skills. Of course you learn by doing, which is you got a guinea pig kid. It's all natural. So be really careful of how you judge yourself. But again, it's this idea that you're in their business when they're younger because they live with you and you have to be. You're supposed to be teaching them how life happens. Now they age up and they move out or they're still in your home, but they're now adults. And now they don't want you in their business. They might want you to be aware of their business because they still want you to care, but they don't want you in their business.
Jerrad Lopes (28:35)
Anyway.
Kathy (28:40)
And they need to fail in order to learn. Come on. Or they need to fall down in order to learn. That's biblical. James chapter one, Romans chapter five. We learn by walking through valley experiences successfully. And if you don't let your kids fall down, because they're so precious to you and they might skin their knee, you don't, I've had so many kids through the years say, Dr. Kathy, my dad was so afraid I wouldn't make the baseball team, he didn't even let me try out.
He was an athlete. whole reputation had been built upon his athletic skill. So he couldn't, I couldn't disappoint him. Or I chose to not be interested because I knew I wouldn't be as good as he would want me to be and I didn't want more pressure. I've had kids say, I'm tired of being responsible for my parents' joy. Where they feel the pressure that if they don't have a good day, then their parents don't have a good day. So it's warped and it's not right. Part of it is the social media following.
They're following people we don't know they're following that is telling them that parents are out of touch and old and they don't have a right to influence anymore. You're an adult, live like it. Counselors and therapists can be really dangerous, sadly. But a lot of it is the kids simply now knows, okay, now wait, I need to grow up. And I don't think my mom can parent me any other way except to be super involved. And what happens, we launch them, they move out, maybe it's college, a dorm, an apartment with a friend or whatever, and we're still knocking on the door.
We're still dropping by their favorite cinnamon rolls on a Saturday morning, but they didn't ask us to. And we're still following them on an app. is that, they even, again, most of it is love ordained, rightly, but some of it is manipulation and it becomes dangerous. That's why I wrote the whole book, because it is complicated.
Jerrad Lopes (30:28)
If, let me try to come at this a different angle. If there, there might be listeners who are listening, parents who have young kids who are currently not talking to their parents. ⁓ What would you say to them?
Kathy (30:39)
⁓ yeah.
Well, let's go there. Good question. I didn't give you permission to ask that question, Jared. No, I would ask you to really ask yourself, are you being fair? Now, if you're a believer, if they're a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, he calls us to reconciliation, restoration, forgiveness, humility.
Jerrad Lopes (30:45)
You
I'm sorry. Yeah.
Kathy (31:11)
love. So if you're a believer and if they're believers, I don't know what's happened. Can you forgive and forget? We're not God, but can we choose, you know, can we choose to forgive and work on forgetting? Can we give grace? Maybe they weren't even believers when they raised you and you're judging them as if they were. It's not fair to hold them accountable to a standard they did not know. Maybe your dad traveled and provided and protected and you resent the fact that he was gone a lot.
Is that your place? So again, are we looking at the past realistically? I think we reimagine the past and it's very, very dangerous. So I would want the dads listening to ask whether or not they're being fair. And I would ask, is it appropriate to live in the past? ⁓ You might be thinking, your dad will never admit it. Well,
Does that mean that you are still gonna be broken by it? Like, why would you give your dad all that power? I don't say that lightly, okay? Like, the issues are real. I would also ask you to ask whether or not you're being fair, that you're not allowing them to have access to the grandchildren, and they're not having a chance to get to know your fabulous wife, who's the smartest woman ever. I mean, and she's not getting to know them. So can you forgive and choose to forget?
Can you look at it through their perspective? Were they intentionally wrong? Very few parents I've met are intentionally wrong or bad. It's misunderstandings that are blown up. Maybe there's a critical spirit. Can you have compassion for the way that your dad was raised?
and understand the influence that that has on him. And can you be the bigger person here? And can you reach out and can you put the past behind you and say, could we reset today? What if we looked at what we have in common? What if we looked at past good memories? You know, again, this is complex, but I think that the change can start in either direction, right, Jared? And it's gonna be blessed by the Lord. He loves the family unit.
Jerrad Lopes (33:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Kathy (33:30)
He wants
us to still be iron sharpening iron. So don't put yourself in a dangerous position. I'm certainly not saying that. If there is emotional, any kind of abuse, and your dad is not a believer, he's not a wise thinker, love is manipulation, if he's a narcissist, if you don't think there's been any change, then you may be better off separating for your health and the children. Although,
many people have separated for what they see as their mental health and they're actually gonna damage their mental health in my opinion by choosing to separate because it sets a pattern of whenever I'm unhappy I separate and I isolate. But we're called to be problem solvers I think. So I'll leave it at that. It's a great question. I hope that that's a helpful way for mature guys to be thinking things through.
Jerrad Lopes (34:20)
Yeah, I think what probably is likely more likely is, ⁓ like my peers have their, their parents have not read your new book that has come out and they're still over parenting. And so what I've heard, but my friends, my peers, ⁓ and their wives, they're saying, listen, I would love for grandparents to be involved in my life and in my kids, my children's life, but they're just way overbearing. They are still trying to control me. Like I'm their baby and they're trying to control the
Kathy (34:30)
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jerrad Lopes (34:49)
grandkids like their babies. so then they feel like they have to set some kind of hard boundary and then it becomes really, unfortunately, a spot where it's like, well, we can't even allow them to participate. I just want to say clearly, I love my mother-in-law and I love my mom. I just want to get down the record in case they're listening.
Kathy (35:03)
Yeah.
That's so cool.
I love that. No, that's those are real issues. There's a whole chapter in the book, as you know, for about grandchildren. ⁓ So here's what I would say. If you have needed to do that, but you've never told your parents why, would you courageously tell them why? I can't. I speak at grandparent conferences nationwide and I can't tell you how many have wept with me. I've said, I don't understand. They've never courageously told me what we've done or what they think we've done. if you do have said because the stories are horrible.
The mother-in-law comes into the house and starts cleaning without asking if she should clean. The parents come in and they say, you're gonna let her, is she watching that show? Or they come in and they're like, they're eating very late, they won't be able to sleep well. And so I'll say all day long, and this is in the book, they're not your children, they're your grandchildren. And you need to understand different is different, it's not necessarily bad. And you need to back off. So I totally respect the parent of your age.
demographic who has said, my parents are unsafe. And I would ask you, have you given them an opportunity to grow in their relationship? Have you looked for them to learn how to be respectful because you've taught them how they're coming across? Would you be willing to try again as you're maturing and they might be maturing? So again, I'm not suggesting everyone listening should do that, but I will say that ⁓ that separation is real.
It is a responsibility of the mom and dad to protect the children. get all that. And yet they're missing out. And if you haven't instructed your parents, I'm not sure you've been fair because they might be willing to grow. Could you give them another chance? And six months later, shut the door again if you have to because they have been immature and they haven't been able to take your instruction and they've thrown the I'm the parent card. Then walk away again if you need to.
Jerrad Lopes (36:57)
Thank you for swimming in those kind of nuanced. I know that's, that's so hard to speak, you know, generally to very specific and hard, ⁓ situation. thank you for swimming in those waters. ⁓ yeah, as we wrap up our time here, obviously we want you, you have so much wisdom. think our audience can tell probably like, I need to listen to more of your podcasts and books and read the books. Cause you have so much here. Well, I guess what would be some of your final words of encouragement to the dad listening after decades of parenting, working with parents and working with children, ⁓
Kathy (37:02)
Thanks.
You're welcome.
Jerrad Lopes (37:26)
Guys like me who, know, kind of tongue in cheek, we say dad's hired because it's like, this is exhausting work. We don't really know what we're doing, but we really want to get it right. You know, I think that our guys here, like they're, pretty committed to trying hard to get this thing as right as they can. So any final words of encouragement for the dads listening.
Kathy (37:43)
Well, I'm impressed by you and your people, Jared. mean, praise the Lord. It isn't easy, especially if you didn't have a dad as a role model. We can start over and, you know, kids are forgiving quickly. know, kids love easily. Be present without your phone. Go on hikes and walks and play the board games and shoot the hoops and, you know, be in the front row at the ballet recital and the front row at the piano recital and just...
Love on it all, just enjoy it. Like just find joy in your family. And just, yeah, it's a season. It goes quickly. ⁓ Receive it well. Say please and thank you. Say I love you more than you think you need to. And use the, I love that, I teach the phrase, I know because when you like affirm, kids become who we tell them they are. So like I was saying before, tell them more than that they're pretty.
You know, you're creative. know because I laughed at the end of the story. It was so funny. You know, you're careful. I know because I watched you empty the dishwasher for mom and you only took one plate at a time from the dishwasher to the counter. That was really smart of you to be careful. Like evidence doesn't lie. When we affirm our children, you know, you're wise, you love well, you're careful. They're like, no, I'm not. You don't really know me. But when you prove to your kids that you've observed them, ⁓ it makes all the difference. And when you're concerned and you correct.
You know, you're being disorganized. I know because it's taking you so long to get ready for math and mom is frustrated. She starts math angry. Your brother has to wait. He's disturbed. We need to figure out a way for you to become organized. I'm going to get you a box and let's put all this stuff for math in a box so you can find it quickly. Like to be solution focused. That's the definition of correction, by the way. Correct is to put it right. Criticism is to point it out. Now that's a whole nother 30 minutes, but
To correct is to put it right. Let's find a box so you can put everything in there so you can find it fast so that you and your mom aren't upset. Criticism would be, you're so disorganized. And that's not helpful. And we know it's not helpful because that's been done to us in many cases. use your words carefully, I guess, is what I'm saying. And I've really enjoyed having an opportunity to be here. Appreciate the work that you're doing.
Jerrad Lopes (39:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you, Dr. Kathy. think, I think kind of to sum up what I've heard in a lot of your wisdom, it's just to let our kids know you're fully known and you're fully loved in this family. You know, I see you and I think even what you were just describing there, some of those examples, it's like, I'm observing you. Like you, have value in this home. I see you. I'm not just going to criticize you, but I'm going to point out the things I've been seeing and, and build up your identity and who Christ has made you to be. think at the end of it, it's just like, you're fully known and you're fully loved in this family.
Kathy (40:10)
Yes.
Yes.
⁓ It matters, they crave that because they're created known. We know that from Jeremiah and Isaiah, they're created known. So they gravitate toward people who know them. And if they feel invisible in their own home, they're gonna go somewhere else to be known. So I love the way you summarize that and I will affirm that all day long.
Jerrad Lopes (40:54)
Dr. Cathy, you have so much wisdom. will put all the links in the show notes to all the great books and resources you have. So thank you for giving us a little bit of your time today. I really appreciate it.
Kathy (41:03)
I've enjoyed being here, thanks.