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We are skilled guides helping teams turn big thinking into impactful doing. By creating engaging, fun, and transformative experiences, we bring people together to connect deeply, work better, and grow more innovative.
During this podcast series we will explore programs to make collaboration meaningful, fostering cultures of alignment and continuous improvement that drive lasting results.
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We value teamwork, continuous improvement, and meaningful connections. Great ideas and success come from bringing people together, thinking differently, and building something bigger. By staying curious and people-focused, we help businesses thrive through collaboration, innovation, and a culture of growth.
[00:00:00]
Attention As Currency
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Caitlin Krause: I am an idealist, so I, I like this question. It sets us up again with intention. I think that our greatest asset is our attention. I'm not gonna say that there aren't, uh, malicious designs and some bad actors, so wherever we pay attention to, no doubt it's a payment.
Podcast Setup And Welcome
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Podcast Host: The world is changing For most humans, change is uncomfortable and challenging to address financial and political uncertainty. Friction with back to office mandates and challenging hybrid workplace collaboration. Not to forget. Important environmental social responsibility and governance initiatives.
Combined with the rapid pace of digital transformation and the need for human-centered AI integration, change is happening and fast. This rapid change has highlighted the need for increased speed to innovation and long-lasting change adoption in many [00:01:00] organizations. Whether you are a startup working on agile process.
Or a mature organization navigating change within existing complex structures, the skillset and need to adapt has never been more vital. The team from Strategy Table wanna help the wider world understand the need and approach to meaningful and impactful change management. Helping organizations navigate disruption and make change accessible, it often starts with a meaningful conversation.
This is accessible disruption.
Anthony Vade: Welcome to another episode of Accessible Disruption, where we explore what it means to be human in a rapidly digital world. I'm Anthony Vade, chief Innovation Officer at Strategy Table, and joining me as always is my co-host and Chief Experience Officer Tehir and Dean. We are really excited today to be speaking with Caitlyn Kraus, and we're [00:02:00] gonna be looking into what does it mean to live in a fidgital world.
Oh, yes. Stay tuned for that. But before we do a fast reminder to share, like and subscribe to accessible disruption and spread the conversations that we're sharing here, it's important that we all join in this dialogue if we want to create positive change in our world. Of course, we also want you to head over to strategy table.co to sign up for your seat at the table and access exclusive content and conversations.
And of course, also check out our social media channels and our sub stack, which is getting updated and some really exciting content coming there soon. Okay, that's enough housekeeping.
Meet Caitlyn Kraus
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Anthony Vade: Uh, tahira, you promised me that this person was not only somebody I'd want to meet and have a conversation with, but somebody who may even have a brain that sort of functions a little bit like mine.
Uh, who was our guest today and and where did you find them?
Tahira Endean: Uh, well, Anthony, as you know, what I like to do is to find people that, you know, you just can't help falling in love with, and [00:03:00] Caitlin is one of these people. So I, I see as most of you know, a lot of speakers around the world all the time. And I still remember thinking Caitlin was an amazing speaker.
Probably three years ago when I saw you speak at CT Caitlyn, and so I have been cyber stalking for a long time and I'm now gonna be forever friends with Caitlyn. I've decided, um, because you are incredibly smart, you have written some excellent books and you're always doing really fun things. So I, we'd like to welcome Caitlyn Kra to the show today, and we'd just love to hear from you.
Caitlyn, tell us a little bit about you and the work you do and your favorite color, your favorite type of dog, you know, all the things.
Caitlin Krause: Thank you so much, Anthony, to hear. Wow. It feels, it feels as if kind of, uh, like the opposite of Pangaea separating into different continents. It feels like [00:04:00] we've been continents slowly coming together into one.
I, I love that and I love that sense when you give a talk because we didn't, we didn't get a lot of time to talk after C two And, um, it's kind of a message to everybody that thinks, uh, if you ever do public speaking to adults, they can be like poker faces. You don't know what's going on in the audience or who you're reaching, and you can kind of have a ripple effect and years later have somebody come back.
Uh, so it's, it feels really wonderful to be here. I'm reminding myself, you know, be here now. Uh, enjoy it.
Curiosity Color And Whales
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Caitlin Krause: And yeah, I, I feel like that that message my whole life has been curiosity. Uh, follow your curiosity. Uh, I'm in a career where it didn't exist when I was little, so I. Uh, that's exciting. And I think just that idea of design and being able to be a curious designer who blends technology with creativity.
Expression. Um, my favorite color is a deep [00:05:00] blue. It's always been a deep blue. I don't know. I, I like a lot of colors. You can tell from my back. I like an environment with a lot, but it's always been that, that color, if I have to describe it to people, I say it's, um, the color of right after the sunset sometimes when the sun is, uh, you know, illuminating the sky.
And there's this crispness, not, not the brightness on the horizon, but the depth on the opposite side. Uh, it sounds very deep that I'm describing it like this. I thought it was the color heliotrope, but, um, sometimes that comes up as purple, so who knows? I, I just think there's a lot to color and I have a Boston Terrier.
I grew up with a black lab. I'm being very literal about your questions. I
Tahira Endean: like
Caitlin Krause: that. But yeah. Yeah. I, I like dogs, um, animals in general. I think at the same time that artificial intelligence is increasing knowledge. Um. Or, you know, increasing maybe our ability to be, [00:06:00] uh, intentional about the work that we do.
Um, the more that we learn about animals and their wisdom, I think it teaches us a lot. So one of my side hobby projects has been to look into, um, whale communication and some of the, the, uh, decryption of, uh, some of, some of AI tools have been, uh. Able to to kind of dig into what specific whale populations are communicating with each other, and I think there's a lot of wisdom in all kinds of creatures.
I'm fascinated by whales.
Tahira Endean: Um, I love that. I also love, um, how much you describe your favorite color because you build digital worlds and so you have to really think about what does a digital world look like and what are those things that you can draw from? And you're right, that color behind the sunset is a really special time and place.
So I think it's fascinating.
Teaching And Stanford Journey
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Tahira Endean: So one of the things you do is build digital worlds. Uh, one of the things that you do [00:07:00] is you work at Stanford. So tell us a little bit about the work you do there.
Caitlin Krause: Sure. Um, I've always been really excited about learning and I, I guess since we're going, this is sort of the, the backstory, um, uh, how many of us really liked school?
I mean, maybe, maybe we loved middle school, I don't know. But, uh, I didn't, I didn't aspire to, uh, when I was in university, I wasn't thinking, oh, I'll go directly into teaching. But I was thinking a lot about reframing worlds of learning the whole time and opening up freedom, because freedom means a lot to me.
So some people might not know that I went, uh, I initially went to be a programmer, then I transitioned and, uh, morphed my plan of how I would do, you know, the, when I was a programmer, I was building worlds, yet I didn't feel as [00:08:00] connected to humanity. And then I went back to teaching. So teaching was a separate thing for me.
That wasn't the initial path. And it was perfect because then I could have a business and also. Be an educator. So I have my own company and I also teach at Stanford as a lecturer. I've also been teaching at the University of Oregon as a lecturer in that their school of communication and design that also has, uh, components of extended reality.
And if we go back a couple decades, I was a full-time middle school and high school teacher for over 10 years. So I taught kids in classrooms, uh, in the United States in Belgium. In Switzerland, Switzerland, and primarily use that, that freedom tenet. Um, you know, how can we start with human dignity? Because sometimes I found classrooms would be so, so intimidating and evaluative.
I'd have students come into the classroom and say, you know, I, I can't do this. Or I'm, [00:09:00] I'm not good at that. And I was thinking, there's, there's a whole world out there. So if we started with dignity, dignity could empower freedom. Freedom could empower imagination because it's hard to be really imaginative if you're in a fear state.
And then imagination would be embodied by this idea of, you know, how can we take this into. You know, if you have an imaginative idea, how, how could that then be completed by agency? So, a lot of what I wanted to do, um, with my students in middle school and high school, that worked really successfully. I then brought into business practices, founded my own company.
Full circle. Stanford found me to start educating their teachers. I did a bunch of workshops for professors about digital wellbeing and about, um, our approaches to technology these days that can, can have that effect of wellness underneath all of it. And they said, we love this, this training so much.
Let's bring this in [00:10:00] as a course for students.
Anthony Vade: Our, our, our listeners are incredibly sophisticated and, you know, very deep into this world.
What Design Really Means
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Anthony Vade: But let's for a second, pump the brakes and pretend they aren't. How would you describe what you've just talked about, some of the elements within, uh, two of your books, mindful by design and designing Wonder, this word design.
Comes up. And I think often those who aren't immersed in this world of experience design or, or design in general, can think, you know, graphic design or we think, you know, design of furniture and designer of fashion. Um, how would you describe what design is in, in, in its essence? And, and, and how do you think about design?
Caitlin Krause: Yeah, really interesting because I almost pushed against the word for the titles, because I love the word design and then also the background. If you would look at some classic text or Shakespeare, it would be like he has designs. Are there designs? Usually when you, [00:11:00] when you have a design, it's not exactly something good that's gonna be the outcome.
So I, but I think that leads us to the, probably the etymology of design. Actually has an intentionality underneath it, right? Because if you have a design, then it means you have a plan. Um, and to me, flip that word into the possibility stage and. Design to me means that intention coupled with an active creativity, like it's, it's not, it's not just in the brain as something ephemeral and possible, but it's like, oh, and then the design is the how.
So that's my, that's my loose, spontaneous answer, Anthony, that I think, I think design is in its essence really empowering and it can be. Of course, you know, and to hear as the expert on this, it can be setting up, you know, I I, there's a great quote that says, um, great design is amazing and Wow. And [00:12:00] then phenomenal design is invisible.
People come into the world and they just feel it and sense it. And they're not like, oh wow, they really placed the chairs well in this room. You know, because you just think, oh, perfect place. I'm gonna sit down and have a conversation. Like when design's working really well, it is kind of the structure.
And so, uh, yeah. So a, I think I gravitated to titles because I wanted to empower people who are reading them saying, yeah, you, you have intentionality that can take action. There's a how it's freedom and also, you know, recognizing that it's not you alone in a system. You're part of a culture, you're part of a community.
So design is not isolated.
What do you think? Any other, any other thoughts to hear? You're a designer, you really are, you know, so tell us, what do you, what do you think
Tahira Endean: here? I believe that that. There's a lot of bad design in the world that there is a lot of [00:13:00] great design to be found in the world and that it always needs to be intentional to be effective, and that we often aren't.
We often just do things because we've always done them that way, or we do them because it's easy, you know, which I think has. I would equate to lazy. So, and I think that when we make the effort to really think about what people need and how we can design for those needs, that's when magic happens. And again, back to that, you know, imagination, wonder, awe, you know, what can we imagine that we can make incredible?
And then how do we design for that? And whether that is. Putting chairs in a room or the work that I know Anthony is dying to talk about, looking at all those headsets that the audience can't see behind you. Um, when you're designing to take people into an alternate world, an extended reality.
Anthony Vade: I mean, you set me up so beautifully for a question there.
Thank you Taira. Lovely little segue. Um, and, and you gave me permission, so, so you've got no one to blame but yourself. [00:14:00] I think what I heard in. That little round of dialogue was, uh, that that design has intentionality and it kind of, it has a movement to it. It has a forward momentum ideally, and it has deep human utility or deep connection to human beings and, and, and, and how we in integrate into worlds experience worlds, uh, contribute to worlds.
Optimism For Tech Design
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Anthony Vade: I guess I poses the question then, like we've thought about design and even maybe some of the. Uh, less positive intentions in the tech space with, you know, captivating attention, uh, the social media challenges that we have with, uh, with, with di di Diversive Nature. Uh, what's your positive and optimistic outlook on design with technology and, and, and where do you see it taking us in the future, and what do we need to hold onto?
Caitlin Krause: I am an idealist, so I, I like this question because it kind of. It sets it's up [00:15:00] for being more, not false positive, but again, with intention. I think that our greatest asset is our attention, so wherever we pay attention to, no doubt we're, you see me digging into words today, but we use the word pay. It's, it's a payment.
You know, it's, it's, it's something where if we don't slow down and pay attention, you know, you'll see different. Right now there have been. Ads added into systems. Um, if we wanna measure the outcomes, we should look at the incentives in the model. And if the incentives to world building our community and collaboration and being together, then you know, I think it, it comes down to what, what the place is prioritizing and the people who are taking part in this engagement.
Their vote, like where they go and where they pay attention to, I think is part of what the outcome is. So that's why I wanna give people hope [00:16:00] because sometimes, um. You know, people can say to me, I feel at a loss. I feel like digital media or you know, the places that I'm engaging in, they're taking away my time.
I'm doom scrolling, you know, and it's all algorithm based. But instead of standing in, just, just blaming and saying, oh, the system's broken. It's like, well now, now they're new open source spaces. There are also places that are, um, really prioritizing community. And giving people, uh, some places are calling them third spaces or fourth spaces of belonging because we're, we're coming back from the isolation of a pandemic.
And it's not just back to normal. It's a, it's a new sort of fusion. Um, and I've been practicing a philosophy that I call the middle path, which doesn't mean it's wishy-washy, but it means both. And like both can be true. I'm not gonna say that there aren't, uh, malicious designs and some bad actors. I don't wanna be just, you know, [00:17:00] saying rainbows and butterflies all the time.
But I think when we pay attention to something that's. Positively reinforcing. I'll ask people, you know, you got together in a, in a community and you had some online interactions or some get togethers in a spatialized world that some people call a metaverse. Was your energy higher after or did you feel depleted after?
If you feel like your energy was depleted after it's a sign that this was not a great place? Um. And, and I have it all mapped out in my book because I think it, it also comes down to game design. We don't, we don't treat our lives like a game, and yet there are game design elements that are part of a lot of these systems that are now becoming digital.
And so. I'm, I'm optimistic because I think that our first pass at social media, you know, things were exposed that were malicious, and now I'm hopeful that more people are gonna hold people accountable and say, Hey, I'm, I'm a designer. I'm a [00:18:00] creative, I wanna take part in either mentoring for others or coming in so that more people feel not only safe because safety can put us on guard all the time, but like the bars even higher than safety.
It's safety. Yes. It's, yes, we should be empowered. And then, you know, we should also have a sense of play and wonder and joy. And, um, that word is part of what brought me to this podcast. 'cause Tira and I both hold the word joy dearly. You know, we need, we need more celebration, we need more rituals. Um, humans need belonging.
And more digital media can be a human to human relationship mediated by tech, not text saying, I'm gonna be your therapist, I'm gonna be your relationship best friend too. You know, so I, that's my hope. And more people are invited to the party. If you're listening to this podcast and you say, oh, I've never, I've never tried some kind of media like that.[00:19:00]
And you know, you're invited too.
Joy Belonging And Third Spaces
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Anthony Vade: I I think you've touched on something really interesting there, that, that I like the point that there are bad actors. Yes, there will be them. And, and it's kind of inevitable. And I think for us, technology as, as a species, it's so relatively new. In, in terms of our societal structures and our, our, our biological structures.
And so it's easy for us to go the new thing is at fault here and only see the negatives and fall into a pessimistic mindset and, and then lose sight of the fact that there are bad actors in the real world. Anyway, who aren't even digital in the slightest way and probably in equal measure to those that are online percentage wise.
So those people participating, and if we just, if we vilify the, the digital world in all its way, shapes and forms, we miss out on the positive aspects that exist within it. And perhaps we'll embrace this idea of joy and world building and, and how are you [00:20:00] seeing this digital and perhaps digital?
Existence that we are moving into and, and how are you working to build these worlds and teach how to build these worlds so that they are based on joy and belonging.
Caitlin Krause: So,
Fidgital Layering And Somatics
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Caitlin Krause: so I have a different take on this than what I'd heard in the past because some places are viewing these digital worlds as escapism, and I view it as layering. And so. My, my view on it and Anthony Tahira, this is something that I've come to. It's not something I initially, if you asked me 10 years ago, I probably wouldn't explain it like this.
Uh, but because, because of a lot of my own somatic practices, I believe that there's a layer on top of our physical and transcending our. Human physical state is not the goal [00:21:00] in, in my view. So what I mean by somatics is, I mean, our connection to our body. Like even right now, you might see me adjusting in the chair, you know, I can see Anthony standing up, you know, and the, and it's not about perfect posture.
Um, but it's a, it's about being in tune with the fact that we are not creatures that learn and think just from the neck up. So our whole body is taking in signals and these signals are really exciting. Um, some people actually think that the reason that we doom scroll, and there's research for this, is that the phone is not giving us any haptic sensory pleasure.
Like it's just, it's just empty. It's such a thin piece of glass that we're just sort of under. By it, but yet we still wanna keep going like a gambler to get our fix. And so there's all kinds of research behind it, but I, I think that my view about this, this digital layering is that, um, right now and in the future, if we think about [00:22:00] ourselves as a full embodied presence, like our presence is our attention.
Our attention when we feel anxious or overwhelmed can sometimes be helped when we come back to the breath. This comes back to my practice and mindfulness. You know, a lot of what I'm doing is intentional and underneath it is this practice and gratitude. I, I do feel as if I'm, you know, I'm here on earth.
We know it's a finite time. Um, it's. Uh, to me it's, it's hard if you're in a, in a job where you intersect with spatial reality. You know, this, this idea of presence to be in a different avatar and not start to have thoughts about, well, who am I, who is the intention of Caitlyn that I bring to this layer?
Because we really are embodying, um, different aspects of ourselves. Let's, let's back [00:23:00] up. This could be as simple as me embodied in my physical presence and deciding, you know, do I wanna use a computer today? Do I wanna use a device? You know, maybe eventually my glasses will have some AR component, and then I can decide, do I wanna use these on my walk or on my bike ride to get my statistics layered?
But it's all a layer and it's still on top of my biological creature. Um. Eventually we could get sci-fi and say, Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna become kind of fused? Uh, people might think fial means part physical, part digital, or someone who fidgets a lot. I don't know. Uh, but.
Peeling Back AR Layers
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Caitlin Krause: The, the idea for me with this, this digital layering is that sometimes it's gonna be great to peel back the layers.
You know, if you're with your partner, if you're with your kids, you do not want to be on your AR glasses, you know, having conversations and distracted. Um, but maybe it's gonna bring us together when people [00:24:00] are separated. Uh, sometimes I imagine things like geocaching and you can use ar layers to explore to.
Visit historical sites, you know, to see something come alive in a different way. Um, a lot of people who are. Experiencing different qualities of the way that they express themselves. Like people who are, um, neurodiverse can have different ways of communicating thanks to this type of layered technology.
So ultimately, I think it can bring a lot of people closer together. It can infuse a sense of play, and there's not just one way. So as I'm describing it.
Designing Beyond Hardware
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Caitlin Krause: Um, I hope listeners can know that, um, my angle is always to focus on the experience and not describe the hardware. Like as I'm describing it to you, I'm noticing myself.
I didn't jump straight to this is the headset stage. This is the, you know, because the hardware's always. [00:25:00] Advancing, which sometimes is part of the challenge of, um, systems like virtual reality or augmented reality. You know, it's, it's no doubt that right now at the same time that we're debating is, is vr, you know, hitting its, its wall.
There's still FEI Lee who designs with ai, you know, and she's, she's one of the prime. People in the AI world, she founded World Labs because now more, more AI computing is being given, um, sandboxes and testing spaces of how would you design worlds. So everyone who's thinking about AI as a language application looking at LLMs, that's just one small area.
3D Worlds and Storytelling
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Caitlin Krause: And what I'm seeing is my, my prediction or you know, my. My sense of where the future's leading. Because we're 3D creatures and we're embodied in 3D, we are going to want to interact in ways that are [00:26:00] storytelling. 3D objects, object oriented worlds, um, places that allow us to do something much more beautiful and transcendent than hunching over a phone or typing into a computer.
Anthony Vade: I love that it gets us back to that, uh, you know, the, the want to be immersed in the world and be, and be surrounded by, it feels more natural to us than, than interacting with a screen or, or a device. It just, it, that doesn't it, we've spent so much more time in the experience than we have, uh, navigating the experie.
Break and Community Plug
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Anthony Vade: We've gotta take a short break at this point. I can see Tahira is dying to ask a question, so we'll come back to that question. Uh, but of course, if, if you wanna listen to this episode ad free, head on over to strategy table.co. Uh, sign up for your seat at the table and access all the additional content that we have there.
Head over to the bookshelf. I know we're gonna have a feature book of the month coming up and you want to bet who the, uh, feature author's gonna be. Might be the podcast episode just [00:27:00] saying, uh, but of course you're head on over there. Join that conversation. 'cause like I said at the start, it's all about how we share this conversation and what action we take from that point on.
We'll be back after this short message.
Designing for Whole Humans
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Tahira Endean: So I love this idea of layers and the, one of the things we do with experiences, with events that I think probably also happens with game design and with virtual world design is that we're designing for this one little tiny part of ourselves. And so it's not, we forget that when people come to, I'll use an event as a live event because that's my world, and then we can layer it in with a digital world.
But you know, when people come, they arrive as full selves. They have physical needs, they have emotional needs, they have mental [00:28:00] needs. They have dietary, they have all of the things that we need to think about, not just putting down a chair and maybe a circle of chairs. And maybe that circle of chairs is at a round of 10 and you can't talk to the people that are at that round of 10.
And then you're emotionally frustrated. 'cause you can only talk to the person beside you and, well, you worked with them three years ago and didn't like them then so, and then your dinner comes and it's got carrots and you don't like carrots and now you're not having a good experience. And, but because we've only designed.
For people who like carrots and want to sit at large tables, we haven't designed for the humans that are showing up that need variety and need space and need conversation and dialogue, which is why they're there. And I. So we do need to think about all of those things. And when you're talking about sort of somatic and, um, you know, that we, even just, when we're standing in a space, we have layers of ourselves that are there.
We might have the layer that's worried about our [00:29:00] kids or our parents who are at home. We have the layer that's wondering what we're gonna tell our boss about our experience. So it's. We all need, I think, as designers of any kind of experience to be more aware that if our ultimate goal is joy, because let's just say that it is, because that's our favorite.
Um, it is that you have to take these multi-layered humans through an experience in a way that. Might challenge them, might have them be a bit vulnerable, um, might have them overcome a challenge and eventually get to a place where you find some joy. And I think that. It's always my goal to do that. And how else can we work with layers of fidgital worlds for our fidgeters to create richer experiences?
And I know you we'll, both have opinions on this one.
Caitlin Krause: There's there's so much here.
Invitation Trust and Introverts
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Caitlin Krause: Invitation comes up [00:30:00] too because. There's, you know, there could be a design where you and I decide, oh, let's, let's really fuel some bonding. Let's ask people deeply emotional questions at the table so that they get to know each other deeply.
And, you know, sometimes that's a choice. And yet, I, I say this to everybody I work with, whether it's clients, students, it's never with me gonna be walk the plank. Because these layers, these facets that you bring up, tahira, they're, they're tender, they're part of what makes us human. You go to a conference and yeah, you're at, you're at the table and you don't like carrots, and that sounds really light, but there could be some heavier part of what people are encountering and going through and.
Um, yeah, human human bonding is really delicate. A lot of it is based on trust and I love to frame an invitation to people where I give them a sense of safety and I'm [00:31:00] holding the space, whether it's physical space or a digital space. We are human and for someone to feel that they're invited. Uh, sometimes, sometimes people are very social, and I think social spaces are designed.
Uh, often for extroverts, the introverts want a space where they can safely watch and observe, and then if they wanna dance in the middle of the room, they can dance and it still can be. Um, this is in the book too. There's an ambient type of social, where I call it ambient co-presence, where people can be in a shared ritual and some of them do not have to be face to face, having a loud conversation.
Um, you go into. A situation, meaning somebody else for the first time, and sometimes it's just, it's just standing next to the other person observing something together, and that gives you a feeling of closeness and trust. So that was thing number one that you sparked in me. [00:32:00] And then it was also reminding myself why on this cover when it could have been a robot arm and a human hand, which is what was pitched to me as the first cover designed by the publisher.
I said, no, I think we need fractals. I think we need different angles of the lens and light and the same font. So it's not binary, it's not the digital. Binary text meets the wellbeing flowy.
Flow State Not Checklists
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Caitlin Krause: Um, because I see digital as a possible flow state, medium, and I, you know, I think wellbeing, if approached in a check the box way could be reductive.
So, yeah. So I see, I see. Let me do that again in case my pinging was visible and audio. So I see digital as a. Possible flow state where we can work into a synchrony with it and wellbeing, not as a check the box. Did I do it [00:33:00] correctly? I, I do have, that's another point. People will come to me and say, well, you've been teaching and guiding about wellbeing practices using technology.
What are your top 10 tips? And of course, 'cause I'm middle path, I wanna be both ants, I'll say, well, I can give you some ideas about. Practices. You can do exercises, some daily habits, but if we become too habituated, ironically that's where we we're not sparking our curiosity. There's no surprise if we're in the matrix and we're just saying, yes, I did my 10 wellbeing steps for the day.
Um, you know, then, then I feel like there's something missing from that agency part where the human feels like they get to opt in and. We're, we're not, we're not robots. So the more that robots are trying to become human, like the more humans seem to be trying to become like robots, even if so, yeah. So I'll tell them it's conditional, it's based on your life, but let's [00:34:00] talk about your life.
Tahira Endean: And I think it's the, you know, the idea of wellbeing is, you know, someone asked me the other day, I was staying with a friend and we were going to her, you know, very fancy gym. She's like, well, what would you do? Well, I do something different every day and sometimes different things on, depends where I am in the world and what's available to me.
But sometimes it's just different things because wellbeing means something different every day. And it could be that I am putting in like a nice self, self-hypnosis podcast. It could be that I am doing something very active. It could be that I'm doing something individually or in a group. So it all goes back to that idea of.
What's, we can't just like, oh, here's our slice of bread, and off you go. It has to, we do need to be thinking about those, um, the different ways that people are interacting with. The universe that surround them and related to how you feel at any given time and giving people [00:35:00] grace for that. You know, it's like we all love a group activity as much as the next person, but sometimes you, um, need to do something that's not that.
Caitlin Krause: Yeah, grace is a great word.
Anthony Vade: I've got a middle path example for you as well.
Binary Tech and Opt In
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Anthony Vade: Uh, strategy table's working on a project at the moment where we're going into a series of office workplaces and we're, uh, using projection mapping to transform boardrooms and tell a brand story in a really immersive, fun way so that they see their familiar environment.
Transformed in a way that helps to tell that story and create a memory within them. Um, I, I, I wanted to play on both of the elements that you were just talking about. Um, because, and this is, this is a tech joke for all the tech geeks out there. We do tend to think of the digital world as binary. Haha.
Like how often have you, uh, logged into your Apple device and gotten a new terms and conditions scrolled all the way to the bottom, and had you've had the option to, uh, accept. Or, [00:36:00] uh, make some amendments perhaps that suit you better. Never. Right. You have to accept it's either you accept and you get access or you don't.
And so we lose that ability to really opt in once the person who controls the world that we've built, uh, it gives you that binary option and they know that it's not really a binary option. You've opted into society or not. We've a, we've got a friend of the podcast who's gone through some family related.
Deep personal grief at the moment. And, and they're, they're dealing with, with loss. And they, they said to me the other day, Hey, we've, uh, we've decided to, to get off of social media because it wasn't improving that situation. And for them, that experience of being on all social media was binary. It made them feel good or bad.
And most of the time, given the what was going on in their world, the grief side of things, it was heightening that, that sense of loss and that sense of. Uh, regret in, in many respects, and I thought that was an interesting, for them, it was binary. Again, turn it off or on. Uh, they, they knew that no matter [00:37:00] what it was, having this cycle on them, which poses the question then to you, that, that if we know that it, that the digital world has a tendency to act this way in more binary, uh, less opt-in, less.
As customized as we like to make out it, it being who's doing it right, who's creating digital spaces, digital worlds, that, that allow for that level of personalization and that, that level of opt-in.
Caitlin Krause: Wow. Yeah. It'd be too easy to say. I, um, no, there, it's a, I know I come to my world. Uh, yeah. Wow. Okay. So.
Open Source and Data Rights
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Caitlin Krause: We're in that, we're in a right now in this sort of muddy middle phase where I am sorry for your friend's loss. And I think as we're experiencing grief, it can be transforming and a lot [00:38:00] of, a lot of emotional hijacking is, uh, based on things like nostalgia or comparison to other people. And, um. Whatever social platform, it's often something that either takes our attention and we're down a rabbit hole, so.
Again, in a non-binary sense, some people choose to take breaks and they go off, or they deactivate their accounts and then sometimes they'll come back later. So I know a lot of people who choose to do that just to kind of wipe the slate clean and then start fresh with intention bringing things back in.
Um, which can be a habit reset. Um. In the layers, the worlds that bring me the most joy end up being interactive, collaborative gaming worlds or, um, places that are metaverses different than the company meta, [00:39:00] although they do have a spatialized world. So Anthony, when you're asking me what are places that do it really well, um, I like to have.
Control over my data. So I'm somebody that, you know, I'm not gonna read the whole thing to take part in Apple, but I am very particular about, um, I, I grew up, I have an MFA in creative writing and also in, uh, do a lot of work with interactive media and photography. So, initially. I didn't end up joining Facebook until 2015.
I was asked to for about 10 years, and I said, no, no, because I just didn't like their terms about the ways that they would own photography. So I'm someone who's, um, kind of a stickler about the fine print, uh, and my latest. Passion is digging into what a friend of mine calls biometric biography. Uh, when we're in a spatial world, how are our actions and our eye gaze and the components of our [00:40:00] physiological movement coupled with biometrics being captured?
Is there proper? She's a lawyer who works in this field and so she has a lot of terminology for it. Um, but I'm interested in a non-fire way about places, you know, straight away I was thinking about open source places. Um, and there are spaces now. Out of MIT media lab, there's, uh, Ramesh Kar who's working on a project called Project Nanda.
It's N-A-N-D-A. And it's, it's basically this idea of how we would have interoperable systems with open source components of them, and also your own data privacy and places where you don't have to be lured by feeling like you're missing out if you don't join. Um, but how can we be. Essentially, I think back to what Tira and I connected on, humans want connection.
Humans want belonging. They also don't wanna enter into a system [00:41:00] feeling like they don't know who the creators are. 'cause sometimes I'll look and scroll down to the bottom of the application or the platform page and say, where are these people from? What are their backgrounds? You know? And because I just wanna know the humans underneath and not have it be a an oz curtain.
Uh, so that, that project is one example. There are other places that are working on open source platforms. I think most people are asking for it. And we're in this kind of shift in society where a lot of places are, you know, either extractive with the way that they're doing business or they're trying to do it with better standards.
Um, another example in the, in the spatial world.
Immersive Collaboration Example
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Caitlin Krause: A platform called Engage that I've been building in for many years. Um, part of their dashboard is that you own your assets, you can bring in 3D assets. Um, they're not keeping. A repository of your data, like you [00:42:00] basically go in there. Um, people can, I'm pointing to my headsets because I want people to imagine that, uh, you could do this on the web.
So it's web accessible, but it's most immersive if you're in a headset. And I've, I've led experiences for people. Um, the US State Department, uh, had me lead a project where it was, um. Archeologists from the US partnered with archeologists from Egypt, and we all brought in the 3D codes for the artifacts, and then people could guide each other and share.
And this was in a period of time where you couldn't, you couldn't, you know, it wouldn't be really, um, effective and, and cost sensitive to fly people back and forth from Egypt. But really being able to go into history, it was better to do this in an immersive application where we had, um. 20 to 30 people together in the space every week meeting up, and it was beautiful.
And you didn't feel like you were being [00:43:00] bombarded by ads or popups or anything like that, so. Um, yeah, we, we had these beautiful experiences together and at the end of the program people were saying, wow, I have, I have new friends and knowledge about different cultures, appreciation for history. Um, and this is something where I think most people think, oh, spatialized Media is trying to replicate our physical world.
And I think, no, it's not competing. It's a different realm. It's, it's doing something that is an alternative. And you come out of that experience, which for me is mostly. Guided and no longer than 30 to 40 minutes. So if anyone is saying, oh, I might get motion sick, or I can't be in those spaces for hours, you don't want to.
If you have a good guide and you're in those worlds, you're seeing it again as a hybrid where you come out of that world. You can jump on a zoom and share. You can take notes. You know, you're, you're reflecting. So I know I've gone down a rabbit [00:44:00] hole here, but I just wanted to, to give you a real picture of an example so we're not talking abstractly about it.
Podcast Host: And you did perfectly
Anthony Vade: well.
Calls to Action and Closing
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Anthony Vade: We do have our, our, our customary. Closing of each episode of Accessible Disruption, our, our call to action, to our listeners to take these wonderful ideas and do something with them. Uh, Tira, perhaps I'll go with you first. What is your call to action for this episode?
Tahira Endean: Not ready for it to be over.
Yeah. So, uh, this really could be, uh, an endless conversation, which I think is fantastic. Uh, I, my call to action is go and read the work that Caitlin has. Put out into the world, it's phenomenal. Um, makes you think and think about wonder and joy and awe, and those are all really important things.
Anthony Vade: And of course, links are in the description to check out the books, to look into Caitlin a bit more, uh, digital Wellbeing being the latest book, uh, mindful by Design and, uh, designing wonder, like, great, great content for you to stretch your mind [00:45:00] and start to think about this world building.
Caitlin, what would be your call to action for our listeners?
Caitlin Krause: Well, I am, I'm calling back into my. The moment in this podcast we didn't get into where you said you projection mapped against the walls, and I'm really intrigued and also applauding that the way things have always been done doesn't have to be the way that we do things.
And sometimes you might feel like you're the first person to do things differently. But then when you make that active, there will be other people that find you and say, Hey, I've been doing that too, and I didn't know, you know, so me hearing about that, yes, there are more of us. Um, and my, my call to action, uh, for everybody is the word compassion.
I've been trying to practice it more because, uh. For those of us who are born as deep feelers and people who can get in touch with emotion, that's a gift. [00:46:00] And um, we often say self-compassion or self-care as if it's separated from care for others. And I'm thinking about the both end. Um, you know, for everybody.
My call to action is not to be passively compassionate, but to be actively, like embodying it, um, making sure you're. Doing simple things each day that fill your well and not as a contrast to your being present in the world. Sometimes for me that's just reminding myself that sitting still for a few moments is okay.
Like my, my body's giving me cues for what it needs, uh, like an animal. So how can I, how can I attend to, um, showing up with compassion, you know, and, and intention and, and being kind to myself. Yeah, that's, that's my message because I think when we're kind to ourselves, then we're [00:47:00] kind to others. And since we're into root words, I think the root of kind is kin.
Like we're all, we're all in kinship. So, um, I appreciate that we can come to this call and, uh, yeah. Form new friendships in this conversation.
Anthony Vade: Fantastic. What a fantastic way to end the show. And I think it really bookends us with that initial point that everything is human in, its in, in its origin, all of our experiences.
And that, that's my, perhaps my call to action, that take this all on board. And just remember, slow down and remember you're human too. Uh, and take that time whenever you. Because I think that's such a beautiful point. And if that time involves listening to a podcast or reading an amazing book, then of course you know where to go to do that.
Uh, I'd like to thank you for joining us on this episode of Accessible Disruption. Encourage the listeners to head over to strategy table.co to engage with more of these resources and the this conversation topic, and pick up all of those links. Uh, and with that, [00:48:00] thank you for tuning into another episode.
Caitlin Krause: Thanks so much.
Podcast Host: Accessible Disruption is written and spoken by Tahir and Dean Ryan Hill and Anthony Vade. All content is developed in collaboration with the team at Strategy Table Podcast production by experience design changing. Find more information@strategytable.co.