She Says You’re Emotionally Abusive… But Are You?

🎙️ Episode 53: She Says You’re Emotionally Abusive… But Are You?

More and more men are walking into counseling asking the same question:
“What if I’m the problem?”
Their wife or girlfriend says they’re narcissistic.
Emotionally abusive.
Controlling.
And because they’re conscientious, self-reflective men… they start to believe it.

But what if the truth is more complicated?

In this episode, Mark and Zack break down what emotional abuse actually is — and how to tell the difference between:
• Normal conflict
• Mutual dysfunction
• And real patterns of power, fear, and control

This is not about blaming women. It’s about clarity.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ The 5 clinical markers of emotional abuse
✅ The difference between normal conflict and abusive patterns
✅ What “power and control” actually means in a relationship
✅ How gaslighting and identity erosion show up
✅ How trauma can fuel abusive dynamics (in either direction)
✅ What to do if you recognize these patterns in yourself or your spouse

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📚 Mark’s Books
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📞 Ready for a Clarity Call?
If you need objective clarity about what’s happening in your relationship, apply here:
👉 https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

💬 Comment Below:
Have you ever quietly wondered if you were the villain in your own relationship?
What helped you gain clarity?

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break destructive patterns, heal from trauma, strengthen their marriages, and lead their families with courage and wisdom.
We combine clinical psychology, EMDR-informed insight, and faith-based principles to help men build strength without losing tenderness.

New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Break free.
Heal deep.
Become the lion God created you to be.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Zack Carter: 00:00

Man, this is so tough because I keep getting male clients who come to me and they're saying, yeah, my wife or girlfriend thinks I'm emotionally abusive or narcissistic. Like these words keep getting thrown out. Sure. And these guys are coming to me and they're like, I guess I got to work on me. She says it's not her problem.

Zack Carter: 00:17

That is my problem. And that I need to work on this. And I just kept running into this thing where like they would describe what's going on. And I was like, I don't know much about emotional abuse, but, like, it kinda sounds like they're the ones that are emotionally abusive or that they're the ones that are narcissistic. And these things are just, like, thrown out and something like, what does it even mean?

Zack Carter: 00:38

Everyone's saying narcissism. Everyone's saying emotional abuse.

Mark Odland: 00:45

Most high achieving men don't struggle with questions about emotional abuse because they're weak. They struggle because they're conscientious. If you're successful on the outside but privately wondering, am I the problem? Or am I being mistreated? This episode is for you.

Mark Odland: 01:06

Because today we're talking about emotional abuse. What it actually is. How to recognize it. How to know whether you're engaging in it or experiencing it. This is the Lion Counseling Podcast.

Mark Odland: 01:20

I'm Mark Odlin, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified EMDR therapist. And I'm joined by Zach Carter, counselor and coach. And our mission is to help men to break destructive patterns, to build emotional strength, and become the kind of men that God designed them to be, steady, disciplined, and free. Let's get into it. Alright.

Mark Odland: 01:44

So the reality is, Zach, I know that we're seeing this often. We're even constantly, men who are responsible. They're hardworking. They're even self reflective. But privately, they're anxious about this topic of emotional abuse.

Mark Odland: 02:02

Right? And what they don't wanna say out loud is, what if I'm actually the villain? What if it's just too intense? What if I deserve how she treats me? These are the silent questions that guys don't share with anyone except maybe us, counseling and coaching.

Mark Odland: 02:20

And here's what's interesting. Sometimes, they are engaging in unhealthy behavior. But other times, they're actually being emotionally controlled and just don't have language for it. So let's define it clearly. If this hits close to home, let us know in the comments.

Mark Odland: 02:42

Are you someone who's quietly wondered whether you're the problem? And if you're a man who wants real psychological clarity, not just surface level emotion and motivation, make sure that you're subscribed. Alright, Zach. Let's let's get into this. Let's let's let our guys know what is actually happening in the midst of all these questions.

Zack Carter: 03:08

Yeah, man. This is so tough because I keep getting male clients who come to me and they're saying, yeah, my wife or girlfriend thinks I'm emotionally abusive or narcissistic. Like, these words keep getting thrown out. Sure. And these guys are coming to me and they're like, I guess I got to work on me.

Zack Carter: 03:25

She says it's not her problem, that it's my problem and that I need to work on this. And I just kept running into this thing where they would describe what's going on. And I was like, I don't know much about emotional abuse, but, like, it kinda sounds like they're the ones that are emotionally abusive or that they're the ones that are narcissistic. And these things are just, like, thrown out and something like, what does it even mean? Everyone's saying narcissism.

Zack Carter: 03:48

Everyone's saying emotional abuse. So that's what this podcast is for. If I'm not sure about something, do a little research. And what I was finding was like, yeah. Oftentimes, it is the other person.

Zack Carter: 04:00

And I'm not saying that the dude has no part in it, that he's not doing anything nasty. But a lot of times, it seemed like the wife or the girlfriend is the one that is very emotionally abusive actually. And so I was like, okay. So what is emotional abuse? Well what it's definitely not is who's yelling louder.

Zack Carter: 04:22

It's not just fights. It's a pattern, it's power, and it's fear. Like these are three big, big themes in emotional abuse. It's not just one bad argument. It's not just one intense moment.

Zack Carter: 04:43

Right? It's not two flawed people disagreeing. There's actually a pattern of control that creates fear, erodes identity, and produces helplessness. So let's first talk about what healthy couples, what actual healthy relationship conflict is. So it's completely common for people to misunderstand each other, to raise their voices sometimes, to get defensive, to say things they regret, to have different needs, to struggle with communication.

Zack Carter: 05:18

These are all normal parts of marriage, parts of dating. And conflict is normal when both people retain agency so they can make their own choices. Both people can repair. Both can express disagreement safely that they're not worried that the other person's gonna yell at them or say something nasty anytime they bring it up, that they're gonna walk on eggshells. Right?

Zack Carter: 05:43

So there isn't fear of retaliation. And the power in the relationship is relatively balanced. And when I when I come across this like idea of power and abuse, a lot of the information is around men doing this to women, which makes sense. Like dudes are bigger, dudes are stronger. So oftentimes that's very common.

Zack Carter: 06:01

But what I'm finding with my clients is that the women tend to be more emotionally savvy and are able to control the men using the men's emotions. Like they kind of are able to like pull them around and get them to do what they want if they just push the right buttons. Sure. So that's kind of what I'm saying. Before I get into the major elements of emotional abuse.

Zack Carter: 06:32

Do you have any thoughts or comments on what I've said so far?

Mark Odland: 06:36

Yeah. This it's good stuff, Zach. And I think, it always feels interesting talking about it publicly. Right? Because you you feel like people are gonna misread what we're saying.

Mark Odland: 06:46

But the truth is we work with men. We specialize working with men. Often guys who value their faith and their family. And and so, you know, maybe we're sometimes biased, but I I think our clients need an advocate. Right?

Mark Odland: 07:02

Mhmm. And and we got their back. And we're trying to see not just what's trendy, but what's true, like what's actually true. And, and again, we talk in generalizations. Right?

Mark Odland: 07:14

And that's okay because you actually have to make generalizations to have a coherent conversation. It should go without saying that there are, of course, exceptions to every rule, but what you said resonates, I think, for for me and for most of our clients. Right? That, I mean, our ancestors. Right?

Mark Odland: 07:32

I mean, they the guys, they're out in in their pack with the the the dads and the the older boys, and their job was to hang out, go conquer something, go kill some food, bring it back. Tunnel vision. Right? And then back at the village, what was the superpower of of of the moms? Right?

Mark Odland: 07:55

It was relationships. It was relationships. It was who's gonna support me? Who's got my back? Who doesn't have my back?

Mark Odland: 08:02

How do I, influence this neighbor or this relative to, to so we can help each other out, or so we can move ahead in life. Right? There's a lot of good. A lot of good to that. But like most superpowers, right, there can be the dark side for guys and for gals.

Mark Odland: 08:21

Right? And so I think the fact that you're saying, yeah, in in a marriage, in a relationship, could the wife, the girlfriend maybe actually have the upper hand with some of that emotional stuff? I don't think that's rocket science to just name that, and, I think it's good to talk about.

Zack Carter: 08:40

Perfect. Cool. Well, then, let's get into it then. Alright. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 08:46

So there there are some clinical assessments around emotional abuse. A lot of them are centered around women and what's happening with women. There'll be a later in the video, I'm gonna show this wheel and it's gonna talk about men dominating women in one of the parts. So we'll talk about that for a second. So a lot of it is actually from Duluth where where you're up, where are.

Zack Carter: 09:07

But, you know, don't wanna downplay what women have to go through, but we also need to like you said, we also need to, like, acknowledge that men can be in a position of being emotionally abused or physically abused or sexually abused as well. Sure. So what are we looking for when we're looking for emotional abuse? How do we know if it's a different between normal arguing and actual emotional abuse? So first there's a pattern.

Zack Carter: 09:33

So this is a chronic problem. This is happening regularly or all the time or close to all the time. For some people it's like a fiftyfifty thing where, hey, half the time things are really good. Then half the time they're as bad as they possibly could be. So you need to ask yourself, is this happening regularly?

Zack Carter: 09:53

Has there been repeated acts of physical aggression? So if you're being slapped in the face as a dude, which I have clients that have been where the fight escalates and escalates and escalates and escalates and then the woman slaps the guy in the face. What is the man supposed to do? Like if he engages in physical violence against his girlfriend or wife, that dude's getting arrested. And he should get arrested if he engages in physical violence with his wife.

Zack Carter: 10:20

But what that means is that for some women, they're able to engage in physical aggression and there are no repercussions from the dude. Like he has to like let that happen. Is the fighting escalating over time? Are the arguments escalating and escalating? These are the patterns that we're looking for.

Zack Carter: 10:42

So just remember, counselors and in this field, look at whenever we're diagnosing a problem or diagnosing a mental illness, we have to see a bunch of different symptoms all combined into one. So in the way that if your chest is hurting doesn't mean that you're having a heart attack. It could be heartburn. It could be you got punched in the chest yesterday and your chest is like sore, right? Could be like different.

Zack Carter: 11:11

So we need like a bunch of different symptoms and then, Okay, when I have these symptoms, that's a heart attack. But we do the same thing with mental health. And so we're kind of doing the same thing with emotional abuse right now. It's like we're trying to figure it out. Pattern is the first thing we're looking for.

Zack Carter: 11:29

Second is fear. And so are you afraid of physical violence? Are you afraid of emotional tactics like degrading your self worth or yelling at you or bringing in the children and using the children against you. Right? Are you afraid that if you say something to the other person, they're gonna blow up?

Zack Carter: 11:53

Okay. Do you feel like you're walking on eggshells? So that's number two. So first one is there is a pattern. Second, is there fear?

Zack Carter: 12:03

Number three, do you feel like there is control? So who controls the relationships? Who controls what topics are being talked about? Who controls the finances? Who controls monitoring or interrogation or restricting.

Zack Carter: 12:19

Right? And so I've got clients that their girlfriend or wife wants them to have a tracking software on their phone, which I don't inherently have a problem with that. Like my wife has a connection to me and my phone. That's fine with me. But that's not her trying to control me.

Zack Carter: 12:39

For some people in relationships though, that kind of stuff is an act of trying to control the man, trying to control the other person. And I'm not even saying that sometimes it's not warranted. If you've cheated on them, I don't blame them for wanting to do that. But but does that match with what's going on in the relationship? So who's controlling the emotional climate is number three.

Zack Carter: 13:04

Four power imbalance. Does it feel like the other person has more power or does it feel like both have ownership in the relationship? Can you both express disagreement? Does one person shut the other down? Does one person feel trapped?

Zack Carter: 13:19

Does one person feel powerless or voiceless? Okay. If there's a power imbalance, it may be emotional abuse. And lastly, number five, identity erosion. So this is like, this is one of the biggest ones.

Zack Carter: 13:33

And this is what I see is that I have a few clients where their girlfriend or wife just like destroys them verbally and emotionally, calling them names, tearing them down on a regular basis. And what I've seen is a common element with a lot of these relationships is usually there's some trauma that maybe Mark, this afternoon, we can send this your way. But usually there's some trauma on the woman's side. And so I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, dang, I can see why they're doing what they're doing.

Zack Carter: 14:08

Sure. But that doesn't negate just because you have trauma doesn't give you permission to then destroy the other person's identity, to control them, to take complete power over the relationship, take complete control over the relationship. So that's what we're looking for in emotional abuse when our clients are coming to us. Is there a pattern, a regular chronic pattern? Is there fear?

Zack Carter: 14:34

Is there an aspect of control? Is there a power imbalance? And is there identity erosion? And guys, if you're listening to this and you're like, yeah, that's my wife or girlfriend doesn't do that, but this actually kind of hits close to home. It feels like I might be doing this.

Zack Carter: 14:47

Yeah, you need to pay attention to that cause maybe you are. And maybe you gotta come see guys like me and Mark to work through like how, okay, how do we put it into this if you're the one that's being emotionally abusive? So that's kind of, that's the overarching, that's the big picture. Mark, I'd love to hear your thoughts before we get on to some examples of things to look for.

Mark Odland: 15:08

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Zach. I mean, I think that's just so helpful. I mean, because these terms are thrown out there.

Mark Odland: 15:16

Right? And I think there's so many there's so much power in the language that we use. And in some ways, the language we use becomes our reality because our emotions come along for the ride, and they tend to match the language we use because that's that's our that's the truth that we believe at the in the moment. Right? And so I know, Zach, you were, the CBT guy.

Mark Odland: 15:40

I mean, there's lot of things that you do, but one of the things you're you're focused on is cognitive behavioral therapy, which really takes a look at the way that our distorted thinking kinda messes us up. It it messes up our thoughts, our emotions, our relationships. And so, let's be honest, we've all got habits. We've all got impulses. We were raised a certain way.

Mark Odland: 16:01

We've got personality quirks. And that is an explanation, but it's not an excuse. And so I think what you were saying about trauma is a big one. Because with all the the EMDR therapy I do for trauma, you know, I have guys fly in from out of state to do, like, twelve hours of EMDR in three days with me.

Zack Carter: 16:20

And Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 16:21

It's intense. It's intense. And sometimes these relationship dynamics come up come up. And and I think that when these words like you're abusive come out, some guys are blindsided by it, and they're left wondering, oh my like, is that me? And it becomes disorienting.

Mark Odland: 16:40

It becomes like, am I being gaslit constantly, or is this something I really need to look at? And so I appreciate you laying out those very objective criteria because now we can actually have a a logical filter to kinda put our experience through. Mhmm. Right? And so, if you guys need to pause, go back, go through those different aspects, and just kind of be reflective, do some soul searching.

Mark Odland: 17:07

Okay. Do I meet the criteria for any of these? Oh, thank thank goodness. I don't think I do. Man, I have been carrying this burden of of pain, believing like I'm this abusive person when I'm not.

Mark Odland: 17:20

Or, you know, actually, thanks, Zach. I don't wanna admit it, but I I do see myself in these things. I do need a little extra support. Okay. Well, that takes some guts to do that too.

Mark Odland: 17:35

And on the flip side, if you see it in your spouse. Right? And if they are doing it because, like I see so often, if you're coming from a place of trauma, oftentimes, you have an experience of feeling worthless or helpless or out of control or unsafe. And guess what the antidote to that is short term, is to have your nervous system feel the opposite. I'm righteous.

Mark Odland: 17:59

I'm I'm right. I'm powerful. Right? And so sometimes people in the name of feeling powerful or empowered, will actually feel like they have a right to yell at their spouse. They feel like I have a right to to to be strong and not stand up to this, but oftentimes, they're not really arguing with their spouse.

Mark Odland: 18:20

They're arguing with their past, and they're projecting their pain onto their husband. Right? And it's not fair. And so the last thing I'll say, Zach, is is similar to alcoholism. You know, addiction, there can be empathy.

Mark Odland: 18:36

There can be deep empathy with something that's spiraled out of control and that this isn't their true self shining through. But what's not an excuse is not getting support for it.

Zack Carter: 18:47

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 18:48

Right? So whether you've got an addiction, whether you have you have unhealed trauma, it's it's it's our spouse's job, it's our job as men to to do the hard work, to face the hard things, and to deal with it. Right? So, again, appreciate the the checklist to go through to kind of, like, try to make sense of it. And, and I've and maybe, like, if you think your spouse is emotionally abusive, don't, like, run home right today and be like, I saw this podcast with with Zach and Mark, and, now, yeah, you're emotionally abused.

Mark Odland: 19:23

You know, it's like, you know, slow play it. Put the brakes on. Be curious about it. Pray about it. But maybe start things will start to stir.

Mark Odland: 19:32

At least you can kind of get some self respect back and stand a little taller. And then with God's help, think, okay. How can I move through this wisely with clear clear eyes? Right?

Zack Carter: 19:43

Yeah. And like you said, I I I wanna double down on probably not a good approach. If this is happening to you, you probably already know that's not a good approach. You probably know that if you go and say you're emotionally abusive, they're they're gonna, you know, let you have it verbally.

Mark Odland: 19:59

They'll they'll prove the exact they'll prove they're not emotionally abusive by emotionally abusing you.

Zack Carter: 20:05

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Actually. And, like and turn it around on you.

Zack Carter: 20:08

Like, I'm not emotionally look at all the stuff you've done. And Hey, look, man, you know, this, this topic is really tricky because like part of it is who, who gets to define what's emotionally abusive, like, you know, cause you know, as I was doing research around this, one of the things that those that are emotionally abusive might say is that you're too sensitive. Maybe that's true. It could also be that it's intentionally using that phrase to negate the things that you know are happening. And you mentioned gaslighting earlier.

Zack Carter: 20:40

That's another thing. So Mark, you're already hitting on so many of the things. So I've got this wheel of power and control. We're gonna walk And through it is kind of centered with a female perspective, but like, I think it works really well with men as well. But we'll we'll adapt a little bit as we go along.

Zack Carter: 20:59

So here here's the the power and control wheel because typically in abusive relationships it is about control. It's about power in the relationship. And as I went through this wheel, I was like, my gosh, so many of my clients I've seen this stuff. So for instance, I already mentioned using children. I have clients where they'll get into a fight with their spouse or with a girlfriend and they'll bring the son or daughter into it and be like, oh, this is you don't wanna become this man, or you don't wanna marry this this kind of man.

Zack Carter: 21:36

This kind of man is the opposite of what you wanna be around. And, like, as the dude, like, how do you respond to that? Like, how like, because if you defend yourself, you're like Right. The child is now being used as a tool for manipulation. It's it's pretty rough.

Zack Carter: 21:54

So I've seen people using the children, denying, blaming, minimizing. So we we touched on this a minute ago of saying, hey, you're being you're being too sensitive. Right? Making light of abusive behaviors. I think is gaslighting.

Zack Carter: 22:10

I don't see gaslighting on here, but gas lighting is also another thing that happens. Like, you're like, you slapped me in the face two weeks ago. And they're like, what are you talking about? I didn't slap you in the face. And it's like, I still have the imprint to like, hey.

Zack Carter: 22:25

Or whatever. Right? It's like, even even if you have like physical proof, they'll deny it to your face and gaslight you, even though you you're like, they're trying to make you seem crazy. Sure. So that that can happen.

Zack Carter: 22:39

Isolating. This is huge. I've seen this so much and it can come in a variety of ways. Right? So they cause problems with family members or extended family.

Zack Carter: 22:51

And so suddenly the family doesn't want to be around and well, are you gonna choose your family, or are you gonna choose me? Like, what are you supposed to say is the guy? And sometimes, if the extended family is being inappropriate or they're they're being nasty or or, you know, breaking boundaries that are being set and stuff. Okay. Like, that makes sense.

Zack Carter: 23:14

But if those things aren't happening, but you notice that it's either her or your family, that might be a sign that there's a problem here. Or anytime you want to go out of town with your friends, with the boys. And she hems and haws and says, Okay, well, have anxiety if you leave. And then suddenly you can't go hang out with your friends because of her anxiety. What happens is that you start to get isolated away from the people around you outside of this person, right?

Zack Carter: 23:48

They want like if she is emotionally abusive, she's the only person that she wants you to be around, And vice versa. If you're doing this to your wife or girlfriend, you might be the problem. So we've already they call it emotional abuse. But yeah, so put on this graph. But put downs, name calling, mind games, gaslighting.

Zack Carter: 24:11

Okay, so there's gaslighting. Humiliating, guilting, damaging self esteem. So I have a couple of clients where I've asked them like, do you feel better about yourself now than when you began the relationship? And they're like, no, I feel much worse. That's a problem.

Zack Carter: 24:26

Like if your romantic partner makes you feel worse about yourself, that might be a sign that emotional abuse is happening. Intimidating, so causing fear through looks, gestures, destroying property, so throwing things, abusing pets, displaying weapons. I've seen a little bit of that. The next is coercing and threatening. So I've seen a lot of threatening to leave.

Zack Carter: 24:54

Like at any moment, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna leave this relationship. You're not good enough for me. You're just like all the other men I've dated. It's just yet this is happening again. Why can't men treat me well?

Zack Carter: 25:05

I'm gonna have to end this relationship too. So a lot of that. Threatening to report you to child welfare. Right? Other threats, almost done.

Zack Carter: 25:17

So economic abuse, so keeping the other person from the finances or the access to money. And so this last one says gender roles, male privilege. But I think there's some female privilege here as well, right? As we've talked about, I think in the last episode around did we talk about it around boundary? We talked about it in one of the videos of how whenever men get together, what society says is men, it's like, you need to work harder.

Zack Carter: 25:43

You need to solve the problem. Or you are the problem. And then women, you're not the problem. You're never the problem. You're always in the right.

Zack Carter: 25:52

And if the other person just treated you better, then things would get better. That's female privilege, right? And so one of the things it says here is defining and enforcing the gender roles. And so I've seen where the other person defines, you know, the wife or girlfriend gets to define, well, as the man, you need to do this, right? You need to be this, you need to be that.

Zack Carter: 26:15

And then it ends up never being good enough. That's another sign of emotional abuse is like no matter how, like you're set to impossibly high standards that you can never meet. And then they tear you down because you didn't meet those impossibly high standards. So those are the different aspects that you can just practically look at and say like is this happening? If it's like one or two things, maybe it's not emotional abuse.

Zack Carter: 26:42

Maybe you still need to maybe go to couples counseling and like work through some things. If you're starting to see kind of like we were talking about the heart attack earlier. If you're starting to see a pattern, maybe it's not all of these things. It doesn't have to be all these things. When I diagnose someone with depression, they don't have to hit every aspect, Right.

Zack Carter: 26:59

But they have to hit a certain threshold. So if you're seeing that numerous aspects of this wheel is happening in your relationship, emotional abuse might be happening. Yeah. Any comments on this, or do you just wanna like, I can pull this down or if you wanted me to keep it up. Mark, did you have any comments on the wheel?

Mark Odland: 27:21

You know, I think, again, really helpful, Zach. I I think it's an objective way to kinda filter reality because things can cease feel so intense in relationships sometimes. And, and, again, have the guts to be like, alright. Not only do where do I see this in my spouse, but do I see any of this in me? Right?

Mark Odland: 27:42

And and if and if you are displaying some of those traits or your spouse's, there probably is some hurt. There probably is some trauma. There probably is some pain that's worthy of healing. Right? It doesn't have to be the end of the story.

Mark Odland: 27:51

But knowledge is power, and you gotta you gotta see things for what it is before you can kinda take the next step. So so yeah.

Zack Carter: 28:00

Mark, let me let let me ask you. So what what would you suggest if someone sees this trait these traits in themself or if they see it in their romantic partner? So that's, I guess, part one and part two of those questions.

Mark Odland: 28:12

Yeah. I mean, you know, check out our our previous podcast on boundaries because I think that's a that's a that's an important step. I think it's one of those things where I think a lot of the guys we work with are just crushing it at work and in life and on paper. They just look so successful. But at home, it's like the where's the backbone?

Mark Odland: 28:33

Right? They've had to kind of cater to this emotionally intense kind of family system. Mhmm. And and so they've lost their voice. And we we talked about in the other podcast, it can get worse before it gets better.

Mark Odland: 28:46

But to be able to say, alright. Hey, I'm a child of God. I'm trying to be a good dad, a good husband. I'm not perfect, but I don't deserve this. And I'm gonna find a way to deal with my own stuff.

Mark Odland: 29:00

Right? So I can be the calm voice of truth that's able to stand up for myself and the kids, and even my spouse who in their hurt is is hurting other people. Right? And so I think it's it's there's it's a messy journey, But once kind of the the the light bulb goes off and you're like, oh, man, I have been putting up with this in an abusive situation. Step one is recognize it.

Mark Odland: 29:28

Step two is to do the hard work of figuring out, alright. I maybe can't control her, but what can I control within myself to not tolerate it? And also not to make the problem worse by, becoming the thing that I don't want that I'm seeing in the other person. Right? So I know that those are broad strokes, Zach, but, I think that's that's that that actually is where, having a counselor or coach can be a huge asset because you have someone to kind of give you that reality check and encourage you and give you practical tools to kinda actually not just one size fits all, but in this specific relationship, what might work, what might you know, what doesn't, you know, what do we try next?

Mark Odland: 30:14

So.

Zack Carter: 30:15

Yeah. That's really good, Mark. I love those steps. Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 30:19

The big thing, like so many other things, is first just knowing, doing some research, finding out for yourself, like you said. I think I think our conversation on boundaries is is a really good place to get started and then looking for help, whether it's with us or someone else. Just getting that help is so important. For sure. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 30:38

So that's all I've got for the day, man. So I'll throw it to you in case you have any last thoughts or

Mark Odland: 30:44

No. This is this is so good, Zach. I mean, yeah, for for those of you listening, guys, I appreciate you you taking the time to to tune in. If if you're unsure what pattern's happening in your relationship, we're gonna throw a link down in in the notes for you to look at the checklist, take another look at it, kind of analyze it for yourself. You know, our link to our website is below for more resources about our counseling and coaching, books, services, all that.

Mark Odland: 31:12

And if you're ready for focused work, you can apply for a clarity session where, we take some time to see if you're a good fit to work with us, if we're a good fit to work with you. And and then to create a game plan for next steps, if it does seem like that would be a tool that you guys wanna utilize. And, if this is the kind of conversation, that helps you think clearly and lead well, stay connected. Like, subscribe, and, yeah, thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.