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You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist is a podcast for seekers, dreamers, and questioners that intimately explores the human experience. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills years of wisdom gained from her practice as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She invites guests from a broad variety of disciplines and many walks of life, including researchers, writers, artists, healers, advocates, inventive outliers, and creative geniuses. Together, they investigate, illuminate, and inspire transformation - in the self, relationships, and society. Curious about many things, Stephanie’s uniquely interdisciplinary psychological lens tackles challenging social issues while encouraging personal and relational wellness. Join this journey through the inner wilderness.
Swell AI Transcript: 122. Audra Worlow FINAL.mp3
Audra Worlow:
He could not sit in that jail cell. And he never once said to himself, wow, I'm sitting in this jail cell. It's really cramped in here. And I don't have freedom of movement. And I don't get to go outside and feel the sunlight. I wonder if this is what these three women felt like when I had them locked in my basement. They can't do it. There's nothing there to connect the dots. They cannot put themselves in other people's shoes. They literally cannot do it. And that makes them incredibly dangerous. And on top of it, they have no guilt. Because they can't put themselves in your shoes, they have no guilt for any of the things that they do to you. And in fact, what they say to themselves is, this was something that I wanted, and you got in my way. And if you hadn't gotten in my way, if you had just cooperated with me, you wouldn't have gotten shot. That's how they think about things. They view the world in a very narrow way. It's about them and their feelings.
Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today I'm chatting with Audra Warlow. She is a writer at Wrong Speak Publishing and a stay-at-home mom. She has a background in criminal law and spent five years dealing with homicide and sex crimes before leaving the field to focus on family and writing. Audra and I have been following each other on X for a while now, so it feels like we're long overdue to get acquainted. Audra, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for having me. So we've been sort of internet acquaintances for a while. And the thing that you sort of reached out about discussing today was this topic that we've circled back to here on this podcast about mothering in the 21st century, the importance of that infant mother bond, but also how politically incorrect it can be to talk about that when people hear that as a threat to women's rights. And it turns out that some of your views on this issue are derived from your experience in criminal law. And so I'd like to start there with your background. I also want to just sort of let listeners know another topic that we'll be coming around to here is the sort of idea that trends every now and then of the idea that we need to bring back insane asylums. which is kind of an old politically incorrect term for it. But there's a lot that you saw during your time in criminal law that has shaped your worldview. So can you maybe start with a little bit about your background, what you did before focusing on family?
Audra Worlow: So one of my main jobs was keeping track of and cataloging evidence for major crimes. your aggravated murders, your triple homicides, your serial killers, your serial rapists, your serial pedophiles, keeping track of their evidence. I also spent a lot of time helping draft letters to oppose parole of repeat violent offenders. in my community and that's what I spent the majority of my five years doing.
Stephanie Winn: How did that affect you psychologically to be spending 40 hours a week immersed in so much depravity?
Audra Worlow: I developed something called secondary stress syndrome. where basically it's kind of like PTSD, but without the single traumatic event to trigger the post-traumatic stress. But it was really hard handling the clothes. The drawings from the little kids that they would draw about what happened to them would really bother me. The bloody clothing would bother me. Those types of things, it would bother me.
Stephanie Winn: I can hardly imagine. Yeah, I used to run actually a support group during the previous chapter of my career for people with vicarious trauma of the sort that you describe. I remember in some of my heaviest mental health jobs, it starts to affect your worldview, right? When the thing that you spend most of your time doing is seeing the darkest side of humanity, it can become hard because then it's sort of your filter when you go to the grocery store, you see your friends. And this made you, I would imagine, very protective of your own children when you became a mother. And that's part of why you reached out to me and shared your own thoughts on daycare. And so this is sort of circling back on that episode titled Baby Gate. I think it was episode number 108. where I talked with my friends Amy Sousa, Robin Atkins, and Laura Wiley Haynes about this thing that exploded on X, where I had basically said, you know, it's really ideal if babies can be with their moms for the first few years, and people took that to mean that I wanted every woman barefoot and pregnant without the ability to work or vote. I mean, you know, there were some really hysterical reactions to that. And you saw some of that drama go down and you shared your own thoughts on why you didn't want to choose daycare for your kids, partly based on what you'd seen.
Audra Worlow: Some of the worst ones, I would say, were women who fed their children to pedophiles. And it wasn't just their children. It was children that they were watching, children they were babysitting, children that they were entrusted with. Essentially, what they would do is they would invite the boyfriend over to, you know, rape the child at that point. So for me, even without looking at it from a psychology standpoint, just looking at daycare from a very practical standpoint, the idea that like I couldn't, you know, interview each person individually and ask them questions. And I'm not entirely sure who was watching my child that day. That really. That really bothered me. There's also been cases I heard about one in Britain where A woman would take inappropriate pictures while working at the daycare and then send them off to her pedophile friends on the internet. Children, you know, while they're getting changed and stuff are being taken pictures of and the parents are none the wiser. There's also women who have beaten the crap out of kids in daycare. Just being unable to ask basic questions of each employee, I think is something that, and not knowing their turnover rate and the fact that their turnover rate in the daycare industry is so high, that threw up some red flags for me, personally.
Stephanie Winn: It's easier, I think, as women to have our guard up about men, it's harder to imagine what's going on in the minds of women who are in these enabling roles. And before we started recording, you had said that a lot of women in these enabling roles end up getting let off easy criminally. They're not listed forever as sex offenders. What insight do you have from your years in that industry into What happened to these women or what's going on with them psychologically that would compel them to behave that way?
Audra Worlow: I'm not really sure. I know that There wasn't a whole lot. In other words, they would usually take a plea deal. So there wasn't really a whole lot for me to work with. Like I didn't have a transcript. I didn't have psychological evals. I didn't have all that stuff. What they would usually do is just quietly take a plea deal and they would get, which is even scarier things like child endangerment, assault or assault charges. Those are like your two main ones. But I do ask a lot of people like I have a babysitter right now who's currently watching my child and I asked a lot of questions. I wanted to know you know, whether or not she was dating. I wanted to know whether or not she was driving. I wanted to know whether or not she had access to a cell phone that has internet access. I asked her mother a ton of questions, including make asking, you know, are her parents still together or are they divorced? And I know that's very controversial to say, but unfortunately, stepfathers are, in my opinion, from a criminal law standpoint, they're my worst nightmare. Step stepfathers are, are. my worst nightmare, because statistically, they're consistently some of the worst. Every now and again, you'll get a cousin or a family friend, but stepdads are pretty consistent.
Stephanie Winn: Well, so on that note of the questions that you felt you needed to ask to put your mind at ease, what questions would you recommend another parent ask if they're looking for a babysitter or a daycare provider?
Audra Worlow: I would ask about turnover rate. The lower your turnover rate, the better. If you have women there who have been there for five, 10 years, that's great. That's a great sign. I would ask about ratios. How many children are there per teacher? I would ask about, those are two big ones for daycare. And then also, I've heard of women just being sneaky. So I know one woman who she felt that this daycare wasn't changing her child's diaper. So she took a big Sharpie and put an X on the diaper. And then when she went to pick the baby up at the end of the day, the diaper with the X on it was still there. So that's how she knew that nobody was changing a child's diaper. And also, to be honest with you, I just kind of watch my child's reactions to the babysitter too. This particular babysitter that I hired, my daughter, whenever I mentioned her name, she lights up like a Christmas. She's so excited to see her. To me, I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah. So this is, this is somebody who's treating my child. Well, to me, like. What I noticed is that if my child doesn't like a babysitter for whatever reason, she will throw the biggest fit, like a way bigger fit than what is normal for her. And so I kind of listened to that and I pay attention to that because unfortunately, like at 18 months old, she can't really tell me anything else, but she can tell me if she doesn't like somebody by throwing a big fit, you know? when I leave her with them. So.
Stephanie Winn: And on that note, part of the sort of controversy on social media is about how people perceive children's fits and tantrums because when videos circulate of a child reacting to something like being separated from their mom and dad and put in daycare for presumably a full day, right? We're talking about littles being in daycare while their parents are both working full-time jobs. I think it's different if you're talking about being with a babysitter for three hours versus at daycare eight to 10 hours. But these videos circulate And some people say, this is heartbreaking. It's just proof that we're not designed to be separated like this. And then other people see the same thing. And they say, this is how babies and toddlers react to everything. This is how they react when you drop a grape on the floor. And so I think there are matters of degree and severity of the tantrum and different ways of interpreting what it means. So with your own child or with other Families that you've observed, how do you differentiate between just littles overreacting because that's what they do versus having some kind of reaction that tells you as a parent there's something you need to be concerned about here?
Audra Worlow: To me, duration. Duration is a big tell. So when I would leave her with a certain family member to have this child be watched, because I've only had one babysitter currently. I don't know if I misspoke before, but I only have have one babysitter currently that I hired. When I would leave her with this particular family member, she would be yelling, yelling, yelling, and I could hear her all the way out until I got into my car. And to me, I was like, Oh, okay. When I leave her with this babysitter, yeah, she's a little mad, like a little mad. But then after a minute or two, she calms down. So to me, like Duration and intensity are big factors, at least to me. But I don't know. Are there others? Psychologists.
Stephanie Winn: Well, the strangest thing is popping into my mind is my pet gerbils. We have gerbils for our kids. But since I'm a step-parent, and we'll talk about step-parents in a moment, the gerbils are my responsibility half the time. And it's important because gerbils are dumb with very little memory. It's important to keep them socialized once we get them socialized. So I'm socializing with these little rodents every day while the kids are away traveling with their mom. And I'm hand-taming them. I'm working on getting them more comfortable being on me and being scooped up by me and stuff like that so that when the kids come back, they can play with them easily. And when we first got the gerbils, they were biting a lot, and so I had to train them how not to bite. Which, by the way, if you ever have a gerbil, the way to train it not to bite is when it bites you, blow on its face. So, there was, the other day, there was a moment where I was a little too aggressive in my handling of the one that's more skittish. Like, I was really trying to get it in my hands, and I think I scared it. And I could feel its frantic little body, and it started biting me again. And it had stopped biting me a couple months ago, but it was biting me, and I could really feel the panic in its little body. I mean, they're skittish little creatures. They're always a little panicky, and their little hearts are racing because they're prey animals. But I could really feel the difference, and I was very apologetic to the Dribble after that. I was like, I'm sorry I scared you, little one, and I was bringing it treats and stuff. I was like, I'm not going to scare you again. That's my Dribble voice. But just thinking about how even with a creature that has no grasp of human language, I'm reading these physiological cues. I can feel its energy is more frenetic. And if that's the experience I'm having of a rodent, I'm sure that in the mother-infant bond that there's all these little physiological cues you pick up on of your kid's anxiety. You can tell the difference between like normal anxiety, new environment anxiety, cranky anxiety versus like your kid's body going into a panic response.
Audra Worlow: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think I can tell. To my husband, every, every wine sounds the same, but to me, like certain wines have certain tones to them. And to me, they mean different things too. You know, is she actually hurt or is she upset? Is she frustrated? You know, is she scared? Like, I, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on her language and what she's trying to tell me when she tells me things. So that's pretty cool.
Stephanie Winn: Let's talk about step parents for a moment. So as a step mom myself, some of the ways that people can talk about this can be nuanced and appreciative of those of us who take on other people's children as if they were our own. That's a really valuable role in society. And a lot of kids are better off because someone married their mom or dad, right? But you also mentioned stepfathers are your worst nightmare. And I'm sure you are familiar with some of the statistics. I think there are matters of degree, right? That it's established that having an adult, particularly a male adult, but also a female adult, right? This is where I'm like, I don't like to put myself in this category. But let's be honest, right? That having an adult that is not a biological parent in the same home as a child is associated with greater risk of violence and neglect toward that child. So can you share a little bit about what you learned?
Audra Worlow: I remember one case that really kind of broke my heart a little bit where this woman married this man. And as her child got older, he became sexually interested in her. Right. He became sexually interested in this child. But to make matters even more complicated, they had a son together. And so she would bring the son to jail visits, you know, to see her dad, see the dad, because this, and when she was asked about it on the stand, she was like, well, this is my child's father. Like, what am I, what am I supposed to do here? And I just, I think I think unfortunately for a lot of me personally, I would probably never remarry if I got divorced or if my husband died, just because I don't, I don't feel like my daughter would be safe. And I would question why somebody was interested in me pretty heavily. If I have a female child at a very young female child, who I I think she's the cutest button in the world, but you know, other people have told me that she's also very pretty and I just don't, I don't think that she would be safe. And, and I, and again, I I've stirred up controversy about, and, you know, sexual abuse before on the internet. So just to clarify, I, I think. Rape, rape is about sex and power. And I think. that rapists have a type that they like to target. And just like how men like, you know, brunettes with green eyes, you know, some rapists like brunettes with green eyes to make that the two are joined together. So but regardless, I just I think that especially the statistics about after a rape, the impact that that has psychologically on a person, like their statistics about drug and alcohol abuse, and things of that nature, it really kind of sets a person up, I think, for having lifelong trauma and therapy that they have to deal with for the rest of their life. And I just personally, I don't think that it's it's worth the risk. So I probably would never remarry or redate or anything else like that.
Stephanie Winn: It's a sad state of affairs. And thankfully, it's only theoretical here because you are happily married and your husband as well. And we're grateful for that. More broadly speaking, I mean, I do think it's very sobering when you hear these stories of – I mean, you described a case of a man becoming interested in his wife's daughter. We have to question, did he just suddenly discover one day, oh, look, I'm attracted to an 11-year-old, whatever age she was? Or was that his motive all along? Was this guy playing the long game? And are there men who target women? And that's what you're insinuating here, right? That there are men who specifically would want to date single moms with children, and they're really after the children.
Audra Worlow: Oh, yeah. What I tell people is if you're talking to somebody and they ask you whether or not you have kids and you're first talking to them and their next follow-up question is, you know, what sex are they and what age are they? I wouldn't go any further with that date. To me, that's just, unless they're offering that information about their own children, let's say that they have kids and he's like, well, I have a, you know, a two year old and her name is this. How old is your child? You know, if it's immediately, oh, you have kids. Oh, okay. Well, what, what age and sex are those kids? Don't go any further. And I, I've seen people who are blatantly open, open like that. And I do think that a lot of these predators, they do play the long game. You know, I don't believe in friendship rape. I believe that these men befriend women that they are sexually attracted to in order to rape them. And they befriend them because it provides a decent amount of cover for their activities. I think that I don't believe that men get accidentally drunk at a party and then rape a woman. Because as somebody who's been sober for nine years, if you drink enough, to the point where you're blacked out, usually your penis doesn't work. So that whole story doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And I do think that men will date women who have specific children and sort of just wait for that child to grow up. And They entrench themselves with the mother. There's also a lot of gaslighting that goes on, too, with the women. They'll be like, oh, well, she came on to me. Come on, we've been married for three years. She came on to me. Who are you going to believe? And there's a lot of that that goes on, too. So no, it's definitely a hunting strategy. There are no nice rapists. They're all predators. Nobody accidentally rapes someone. It's not an accident.
Stephanie Winn: It's weird just kind of looking into this mirror with the sexes flipped because I remember on my first date with my now fiance, I say I'm a step-parent because we're living as married, but it's taking a while to get married. We've had some life ups and downs to deal with that have taken priority over our wedding, and so we will eventually get married. We're very much looking forward to it, but it's taking a while to have the wedding actually. But, you know, here I am. I've been living with my stepkids for a couple of years in the stepparent role. And I remember, I mean, I knew that he had kids when I first met him because I didn't meet him in a dating context. And it was immediately apparent that he had kids from a different context that we met in. I didn't meet the kids for several months. We, you know, had a series of conversations. We were in a committed relationship. It was, you know, he wouldn't have introduced me to them. without feeling like this relationship was going somewhere. But I mean, I remember our earliest conversations about his kids and navigating that from the perspective of here we are, two people interested in each other. And if we get into a relationship, it's with the understanding that the kids are going to be a part of my life. And if it gets serious, then I'm taking, you know, looking at potentially a stepparent role And as a woman, and a woman who's not a predator, you know, the thought… I don't think the thought occurred to either of us, that those conversations were anything other than… Could we see ourselves being a happy family together on some level? Would I enjoy the kids? Would they bond with me? That sort of thing. And it's been an adjustment, for sure. And they're boys, and they're into boy things. And sometimes I have to pretend to be interested in soccer and Legos. But it's interesting hearing this from the opposite side, thinking about if the sexes were reversed, just given, you know, statistically, the much, much more significant likelihood of males being predators to single moms.
Audra Worlow: It's heavy. It's a lot of weight.
Stephanie Winn: It does make me feel for the good men out there who would be stepfathers. I mean, I I'm in favor of step-parents in general. Some of you may have heard my episode with Jeremiah Wallace. He's such a sweet, admirable guy who has a podcast on step-parenting. And we've talked about it. And I think that step-parents can be wonderful figures in children's lives. And they can create stability and, you know, not to toot my own horn, but thanks to me, my stepkids get to grow up seeing a loving relationship between a man and a woman. And that, I think, is so important. And with their parents being divorced and their mom not being remarried, I don't know that they would have that if it weren't for our relationship. There's a lot of stability and values that I bring to their lives. And so I want to be an advocate and an ally for all the good people out there who either are step-parents or would consider being step-parents. I've recommended it to people. I've said, like, don't write off single parents, you know, that could potentially be a really beautiful situation. But that being said, it is so tricky with the gender roles being swapped. And then you add in this other dimension of the depravity that you've seen because of your unique vantage point where you've also seen women predators and women enablers. I mean, are you familiar with cases of stepmothers being abusive as well?
Audra Worlow: No, I am familiar with, I haven't seen many of those, but I saw- That's actually such a relief to hear, can I just say?
Stephanie Winn: With you having spent five years in that industry and having seen women do some terrible things, it is a relief to hear that stepmothers in particular haven't been the sources of that, but please continue.
Audra Worlow: But I have seen four biological fathers go after their children.
Stephanie Winn: Sexually?
Audra Worlow: Yes. So children that they help change diapers and everything else like that. I have seen that. So that was kind of… I guess what I'm trying to say is you can do everything right. You can get married. You can stay married. You can have beautiful children with this person. And if he's a creep, you know, he's a creep. So and it's it's unfortunate. The one thing I will always agree with feminists about. Is I do think that we in a lot of ways live in a rape culture because the way that a lot of this stuff is just sort of swept under the rug and the way that people are offered plea deals and the way that, you know, their sentences are reduced and everything else like that. I've seen people who spent more time in prison for armed robbery or holding up a gas station than raping a child. And the only way I can really really quantify that in my mind is, I think that people just think that this is just something that we have to accept, which I think is really kind of dark.
Stephanie Winn: Who thinks we have to accept that?
Audra Worlow: I guess I guess our justice system in a lot of ways, you know, our The problem with rapists is that they have a very high recidivism rate. Within five years, 57% of them are back in cuffs and back in jail. I remember a lot of times when I was helping with some of these cases, especially with parole, I remember looking at some people who I thought would be really great candidates for release. There was a de-escalation of violence there. armed robbery. And then after that, they were like, burglary. And after that, they were like, theft. And I was like, Oh, okay, so this person is de escalating their criminal activity, right? But yeah, for some reason, for some reason, they the rape, the rapists just have have a soft spot for some people. And I don't know if it's because they assume that people misread signals, like, like I explained to you, I don't believe that. Not for a second. I don't know why it is. I was I remember watching Katonji Brown Jackson, you know, with with a lot of those child porn collectors, you know, that's the opportunity to really catch these people before they have the opportunity to rape a child. You know, if they have thousands of hours of child porn on their computer, you can literally put them away for 57 years because of the way that the federal law is written. And to not take that opportunity to keep them far away, I just I think it says a lot. And I don't know what it is. I don't know why. And then I also think a lot of the reason why women get these little slaps on the wrist for child endangerment and things of that nature is because I don't think that they view women as fully capable adults who are able to make decisions for themselves. And I think there's some of that going on, too. But that's my little soapbox speech for the feminists. Yes, you live in a rape culture. Yes, you're correct. And no, I don't know what to do about it. So you described, go ahead. Sorry. The only thing I can offer is tips and tricks on how to spot them and keep your children safe. And one of the things I would recommend is teaching your child no, no touches and swimsuit area and things like that from, from a young, from a young age. So. and to tell you right away.
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Audra Worlow: You do. You do have a way of detecting it. And the number one thing that I would watch for is boundary issues. If you have somebody who is way too friendly, like I know that creepy teachers, I have a friend of mine who has a 12-year-old son. And I said to her, well, you know, teachers can can be predators too and she was just like really i said yes some of the female teachers so boundary issues is a big one you know people who are too friendly people who are you know, they're having, I wouldn't say, they wanna have super secret chats, you know, with your kid to make them feel special, right? They're just too friendly. Or that person who always offers like, you know, to watch the kids for free, that's one too. Who isn't like a friend of yours, that's one that I would watch for. But yeah, boundary issues are a big one. People who, you know, they walk around the house naked. Stuff like that. They make comments about your child's developing body every now and again, you know, like, oh, she's going to be, you know, a hot one or, oh, I guess you're going to have to have the boy beat the boys off of her. Ha ha. I mean, it's one thing for a girl to say that. I mean, if a man said that to me, I would be like, hmm, I'm not going to have you over my house again. So just have just and watching where people look at your kid, too, is another big one. Watch their eyes. And if you feel creeped out, which most people do, most people have a creep feeling. Whenever I've read police reports, it's always, you know, I had this feeling about him, but I didn't trust my instincts. Trust your instincts. If somebody is creepy, it doesn't matter if they're a man, a woman. If somebody is like kind of crossing some boundaries and stuff, I would I would kind of nip that in the bud pretty quickly.
Stephanie Winn: Have you read Gavin DeBecker, The Gift of Fear?
Audra Worlow: I haven't. It was recommended to me.
Stephanie Winn: It's such a good one on trusting that instinctual feeling. And those are some really good pointers, by the way. Thank you. Walking around naked when you say it just sounds so absurd. But I recall I had a job early on in my mental health career while I was still working toward my licensure that occasionally required home visits. And I remember visiting a very chaotic household where I was sitting in the living room, talking with some members of the family, and someone just walks by in their underwear. And nobody reacts, like it's all completely normal, right? Things like that, that you're just like, what else is going on that makes everyone treat this as a normal thing, right? Especially when you're having company over.
Audra Worlow: Well, that's the thing. They groom the family, too. They groom you, too. And so what they'll do is they'll earn your trust and groom you in order to accept these issues with boundaries. You know, they might tell you a sad story. You know, oh, you know, I just I feel really close to your child, you know, and I've been really lonely, you know. Now, before when I was younger, when I would hear that somebody was lonely, I would feel sorry for them. Now, I wonder, is there a screw loose? Is that why you're lonely? Where's your family? Where's your friends? You know what I mean? It's one of those red flags that I tuck in the back of my head whenever I'm listening to somebody. They groom you too. A lot of times, they groom you to feel sorry for them. That's a big one.
Stephanie Winn: Yes, totally. Earlier, you described child pornography arrests as preventative and framed that as a good thing, that it's preventing potential harm. Now, I'm wondering if you've heard of this argument that things like AI-generated fake child porn, or child sex dolls, that the basically the things where no actual child is involved, but where there is a simulated pedophilic act. There is an argument from some people that those are protective, that it sort of redirects the instinct of people who are wired this way and potentially stops them from victimizing people. And I'm wondering what you think about that argument.
Audra Worlow: I don't think that argument, if they want to stop victimizing people, the simple solution is that they're not around children. Right. If I'm somebody like I'm an alcoholic. I don't need non-alcoholic beer. I need to stay out of bars. I need to stay away from places that serve mainly alcohol and bring back memories, right? So I don't buy the argument at all that, oh, well, you know, we have to have something to do with sexual release. I think the more you feed something, the bigger the problem gets. And I think that that's a bunch of horse, horse crap. Sorry. It's an absolute bit of horse crap. And also, To point this out, it's not like sexual predators who prey on children that they're exclusively child sex attracted. The majority of them, they have sexual partnerships with these women. That's how they gain access to the children in the first place is, you know, by bewitching these women and marrying them and than waiting around for this child to grow up. So the idea that they have to have this outlet because of that is just, it's hogwash.
Stephanie Winn: It's absolute hogwash. I agree with you and it's interesting to hear it from your perspective with the work that you've done to know that such a significant portion of the men who do these crimes do not exclusively direct their sexual attention toward children, that they are capable, you know, capable of having these relationships with women. And I'm inclined to agree with you in your critique of this argument that, you know, oh, well, just give the pedophiles fake child porn and childish sex robots, and then they won't hurt anyone. Because I think Here are some of the shortcomings I see in that argument. For one, I agree with you that the more you feed something, the bigger it grows. I also think that there's a presumption that we can project our own innocence onto criminal-minded people as if they share our desire not to hurt others, right? So we all tend to assume other human beings are like us. And so that means that those of us who are not sociopathic or antisocial or perverted, those of us who want to create harmony, get along with everyone, see the best in everyone, find empathy, treat others kindly, like those of us who are just generally wired in a pro-social way, we have a blind spot where we project that onto people who are actually sadistic, criminal-minded, people who get pleasure out of hurting and exploiting others, and that creates a massive blind spot when it comes to safeguarding. So it's kind of this idea, oh, everyone who is sexually attracted to children just can't help it, and they wish they weren't that way, and if they could take the option not to hurt children, they would, completely overlooks a huge portion of their psyches, which is that while I can't say for sure that there are not men who fit that description, men who have a conscience I definitely know that there are men who have that depravity where if they can exploit someone and get away with it, they will. They want to hurt because they get a pleasure out of hurting people. That's the sadism that a lot of us who are not fundamentally sadistic people have a hard time seeing in others because it's not like us.
Audra Worlow: Well, and even without sadism, I think, you know, what you were talking about reminded me of, I was taking, I was an intern and I was taking a, before I got my job and I was taking a tour of the County jail. And, you know, it was really interesting that I had the opportunity to ask, you know, the guards, you know, how they feel about, about certain things. And the, the strangest reaction I'll never forget. So there was this guy. where I live, who changed three women in his basement for three years and tortured and raped them for a very long time. Like 20 years, something insane like that. And anyway, they finally threw him in jail, right? And he was awaiting trial. He eventually killed himself. He never made it to trial. But he was complaining to the guards that he didn't get enough yard time. I don't think people fully understand that these people don't just have sadism, they have a profound lack of empathy. They could he could not sit in that jail cell and he never once said to himself, wow, you know, I'm sitting in this jail cell. It's really cramped in here and I don't have freedom of movement and I don't get to go outside and feel the sunlight. I wonder if this is what these three women felt like when I had them locked in my basement. They can't do it. There's there's nothing there to connect the dots. They cannot put themselves in other people's shoes. There's something and the more and more I read about, I love psychology. It's one of my pet projects. I don't think antisocial personality disorder is a true personality disorder. I think it's a neurological problem. I think that a lot of these people, they can't, they just can't do it. Because even if You can teach somebody empathy. You can teach somebody, well, how would you feel if somebody bit you? And they'd be like, hmm, I wouldn't like that very much. And then what would they do? They wouldn't bite anybody anymore. I'm working on biting with my child. That's why I brought up biting. They can't do it. They literally cannot do it. They cannot put themselves in another person's shoes and imagine how you feel. And that makes them incredibly dangerous. And on top of it, they have no guilt. So because they can't put themselves in your shoes, they have no guilt for any of the things that they do to you. And in fact, what they say to themselves is, well, you know, this was something that I wanted and you got in my way. And if you hadn't gotten in my way, and if you had just cooperated with me, you wouldn't have gotten shot. Or you wouldn't have had this happen to you. Or you wouldn't have had that happen to you. That's how they think about things. They view the world in a very narrow way. It's about them and their feelings. They don't think about anybody else's feelings. And so when you're trying to get these people to have an outlet, that's not going to work on them. Because they have to care about the fact that they're hurting people. And they don't care. They don't care. That's the problem. That's the fundamental problem. If you can't get somebody to care about other people, then you can't teach them a better way of behavior. And that's why some of the worst offenders that I always was like, don't let these people out, they would start with burglary, then they would armed robbery, then felonious assault, and then finally it would be murder. In other words, in and out, in and out of prison because they don't, they don't have the ability to learn from their mistakes, correct their behavior. It's about what they want, period. And I don't care who they hurt to get it.
Stephanie Winn: All right, so let's circle back to one of the sort of questions that we opened with this idea of bringing back insane asylums, which of course is an old term and it's a colloquialism. It's not in vogue anymore to speak that way. And I'm not well versed in the history of this, but I do know that I believe it was during the Reagan administration that we lost a lot of funding for long-term mental health facilities. And in my own family, I have an aunt with schizo, or I had an aunt now deceased with schizoaffective disorder who was not well my entire life. she became symptomatic as a young adult, which is usually how it goes. And I remember when I was very young that she was in more like hospital-type settings, but long-term. And then halfway houses, and then like it, you know, the types of services available to people like her have changed a lot. I have a lot of thoughts on what types of psychological services need to be available. And I will just bookmark or put a pin in this topic for another conversation. But just because it's been on my mind lately, there was a video circulating of some very awkward autistic young adults who clearly spend a lot of time playing video games. And it was the awkwardness of the relationship and the mannerisms here, I think, brought up a lot of feelings for people on the internet who are seeing it. And what it brought up for me is I really, really wish that there were more appropriate services for autistic young adults, specifically social skills training and life skills training. Because you can see with these ones, for example, that they are spending 12 hours a day on video games, and that is shaping their mannerisms and behavior. And in my unique role as a sort of specialist consultant for ROGD parents, a lot of them have autistic kids, and I can tell that from the kids' behaviors that the parents are reporting to me, that these kids would really benefit from social skills training, not necessarily from licensed therapists, but from people with appropriate expertise in how do you give social skills training to autistic young adults, and how do you give life skills training to autistic young adults. And I don't know where to refer these families because I feel like those types of programs are in short supply, and then considering the chilling effect that so-called conversion therapy bans have had in the state of the mental health field, and the fact that a lot of young autistic adults identify as trans or some other gender identity, a lot of people just won't touch it. And they're afraid to do anything that challenges a person's so-called identity, even if this is an autistic young adult, who identifies as a furry or whatever, right? They're not gonna get the help they need to integrate into society. So that's just my little soapbox rant about a topic for another time, which is where are the appropriate services for this population? But then there's also populations like my aunt, for example, and then another population would be the population that you saw, right? These chronic offenders with antisocial traits, the people with profound lacks of empathy, the people who get pleasure out of hurting and exploiting other people. And there's a question of where do they belong? Do they belong in prison? Many of them do belong in prison because they've committed acts to land themselves there. But there are also some who maybe don't exactly belong in prison. Maybe they haven't done anything yet or they haven't done anything to warrant being locked up for life.
Audra Worlow: So one of the most things that really impacted me was There was a young man who I was reviewing parole. I was reviewing parole because that was a big part of my job. And I noticed that he kept getting written up for not showering. And then he would get written up for not getting out of bed. And I was watching these write-ups over and over and over again. My first thought was, did anybody do a psych referral? Now, We have a facility near me that a behavioral health center that deals with criminally insane people and basically how they get there is they're picked up for theft or something petty. And then a judge with no mental health training, by the way, decides that this person might benefit from, you know, this behavioral center or a guard. will finally, you know, say something like, hey, you know, and I was really happy for him because I found out that he ended up at this behavioral health center. And he, this place is great. They have cooking classes and bingo and art classes and they have occupational therapy and they teach them how to do laundry and fill out job applications and they get them medicated and they get their medications correct. So that way they're no longer, you know, hearing voices and stuff. One guy told me, I actually volunteered there for three weeks while I was getting my Bachelors of Applied Health Science. What was really cool was I got to talk to somebody who was so grateful to be there. He was homeless. They were fighting over bread in the streets, like having a fist fight. The cops picked them both up and were like, hey, no assaults here. And he was really happy because in a couple of weeks, he was going to be in a halfway house. And he really liked his medication because it stopped the voices. He was really happy to stop the voices. And I do think there's a lot of people in prison who have substance abuse issues. There's a lot of people in prison who have bipolar disorder is a big one. And the one case that I wrote about in my article was about a boy who was severely autistic. And somebody tried to take his Nintendo and he grabbed this teacher and he beat her nearly to death. I mean, they managed to grab her away from him in enough time and put her in the hospital. But she has she has she has permanent brain damage. She has post traumatic stress. And He's in jail now. He's in jail with all the psychopaths, with the guards who are underpaid, who don't have mental health training, and who it's one guard for an entire unit. Their whole job basically is to just make sure people don't kill each other and that everybody gets out of jail alive. That's their only job. Their job isn't to provide any rehabilitative services. So I kept hearing constantly about criminal justice reform, about how, oh, we need to add more mental health services to jail. I'm like, no, we need to get the people who have the mental health services in a place, sorry, I talked with my hands, in a place where they can get the help that they need to be successful. That would be my biggest hope.
Stephanie Winn: I worked in a facility kind of like the one you described that the young man was very grateful to be in. my first job out of grad school. And I mean, you could sort of call it like a halfway house of sorts. And we had people who also were on meds to stop the voices. And those meds, they don't always work very well. And they have a lot of side effects. But they work better for some people than others. I'll just say that. And we also gave them just that basic life skills training. Unfortunately, it was so underfunded and it was in such a rough location and there are just so many problems. And I think that that same facility no longer exists. But I think if there were more funding and better treatment options, a place like that in a safer environment, in a more peaceful environment, where residents could be protected from each other and protected from the rough lights on the streets that awaits if you go outside the door. And it's definitely in order. I think just a lot of life skills training, really, for young people, even for higher functioning young people. Sorry, go ahead.
Audra Worlow: Yeah, no, they clearly their goal was to set these people up for success. Their goal was to have them released, not don't commit any more crimes. And if they stayed out of jail for a period of time, their record got expunged. So that that's it was a good deal. It was a really a good deal. I think that's where a lot of people belong. I think your psychopaths belong in prison because unfortunately, like there's no therapy that will fix them. You cannot you can't fix a psychopath. Unfortunately, it would be nice if he could because they commit over 50 percent of your violent crimes in the country. But but unfortunately, you can't fix them. And That's why, yeah, that's.
Stephanie Winn: You said that amongst the people you encountered who were locked up, that bipolar was a really common diagnosis, so I'd presume that we're talking about crimes being committed during the manic phase of bipolar.
Audra Worlow: Usually a lot of alcohol and drugs that they were doing, and then they would, you know, a lot of DV, a lot of beating the crap out of each other. while on alcohol and drugs. And then later on, they would be diagnosed with bipolar and things like that.
Stephanie Winn: I don't know if I've ever shared my bipolar borderline roommate story on my podcast before, but when I was in college, I had a roommate, a housemate in apartment who had told me at one point that she'd been diagnosed with both bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, but she was very dismissive about the diagnoses, and she was my friend. She was like, oh, yeah, they diagnosed me with this, but I don't really believe it. And so I was like, OK. And then I saw her in the midst of a full-blown manic episode as my housemate. And there is a fine line between full-blown mania and psychosis. It can have psychotic qualities. And so in her case, she did not should not have a diagnosis that I knew of as something like schizoaffective disorder or schizophrenia and thinking about having known her, I wouldn't… I wouldn't attribute those diagnoses to her either. But while she was in a manic episode, in which she was giving lots of things away, going on extreme diets, like, you know, blasting music really loudly and dancing all over the place, like, while she was in that phase, she… held a delusional belief that I was a witch casting spells on her and controlling her behavior. And she had, earlier in this manic episode, given me a pair of gold hoop earrings. And, you know, we were both young, broke college students, and she had spent too much money on these earrings. And I had no care for the earrings. I was not a I was not after her earrings, but she gave them to me with this grandiosity. Like, oh, these were really meant for you. And I was like, are you sure? I know how much you spent on these. OK. All right. Thank you. That was my reaction. And then while she was in the manic state, she had this belief that I, as a witch, had controlled her thoughts and had made her give me those earrings. And this is one of her accusations of me. in the process of kicking me out of my apartment, which, as a young person, I had no idea what my legal rights were. It didn't occur to me that, like, I'm on a lease. I have a right to stay here. Instead, it was just like, well, that's that. I guess I don't live here anymore. Mom, help. You know, that was pretty much how I handled that. And I found a new place to live. But that was my up-close personal view at a young age of what a bipolar manic episode can look like. And I recall While I lived with her, before she reached that particular peak, her sharing things that had happened during previous manic episodes, and it was, you know, going on a long road trip, like, dropping out of college, going on a long road trip, spending all of her money, and, you know, she also, like, made and lost friends like nobody's business. So it's, you know, having had that personal experience, plus time in the mental health field since then, but it's different when you have that personal experience.
Audra Worlow: Yes, my uncle has some type of schizophrenia or whatever, we're not really sure what. We can't get him to get any help because the government is against him and they will come and assassinate him if he gets mental health. That's the other part that I think a lot of the anti-forced mental health treatment people don't understand. What do you even do? I remember I remember I was working a case where the guy kept referring to himself as the living God, you know, and he kept repeating it over and over again. And this motion was like, was like this. It was like a book. And my attorney handed it to me and was like, figure out what this guy's legal arguments are, because it's a pro se motion, and I need to respond to it, but I can't interpret it.
Stephanie Winn: His argument is that he is God?
Audra Worlow: His argument is that he was unlawfully restrained. There was a bunch of other things. And the craziest part about it, I'll never forget it, is so he was restrained at a mental institution, and the mental institution then filed a motion with the judge to ask if they could forcibly medicate him. And I remember being like, but wait a minute, like, they already sent you to the mental institution. So like, why you have to ask? Ask for what? You know, what did they expect them to do? Like throw fairy dust? So I just I think a lot of people don't, they don't want to face the reality. They don't want to face the reality that our jails are full of mentally ill people and not getting any help that they need and just suffering. you know, every time I talk about a mental institution, people always argue with me. So you want to lock up the mentally ill, they're already locked up. The question is where to place them. That's the question here. And so I remember, yeah, it's just it's very, it's very, it's a frustrating conversation. For sure. It's supposed to think and Yeah, especially when, you know, you want these people to get the help they need so they can be released in society. And then you want to keep the psychopaths in jail. And psychopaths, according to some statistics, are two and a half times more likely to be released on parole because they're charming and nice and they interview well.
SPEAKER_01: And so the parole board goes, Oh, look at this poor person.
Stephanie Winn: is maddening and meanwhile you have this crazy person who clearly he he he and you know nobody's helping him like you know i think it's it's so complicated when it comes to conflicting values such as you know consent bodily autonomy but also the safety of the community and also the welfare of the whole person, considering that the illness is just a part of the person sort of taking control at a given time. Taken to an extreme, the way that the fentanyl crisis is being handled by far-left activists in places like Portland that are just overrun with fentanyl addicts dying in the streets, I have even heard that Fentanyl use is being framed as a bodily autonomy issue by the so-called harm reduction advocate to Walk through the streets of places like Portland handing out needles and you know, so-called safer drug use supplies and the idea of You know any kind of forced detox or getting that person help is framed as a violation of their bodily autonomy because the ideas that they're choosing to use. And when I heard that, that this was going on, it was like so hard to fathom how anyone could work, on the one hand, that up close and personal with addiction, that you're really seeing addiction in your face, and yet have such naive understanding.
Audra Worlow: To be honest with you, a lot of psychology gave up on addiction. That's how all of these step programs came about because I don't, you're right, I don't think they understand the aspect of addiction because it does get to a point where, I mean, it's a choice, but it's also not a choice. And also, A lot of times in the throes of addiction, you don't think you have a choice. Then when you're addicted to certain substances like alcohol, you actually really don't have a choice because you can die if you choose to stop drinking it. Yes, you're right. I think that's why addicts and alcoholics, counseling other addicts and alcoholics work so well because I don't think that unless you experience that yourself, I don't think you really fully understand what it is, like what this animal is.
Stephanie Winn: I don't know what solution I would propose. I don't know where the line should be drawn with regard to things like forced hospitalization.
Audra Worlow: I put together, I think, a pretty good strategy. Well, I can tell you what my strategy would be. I think it should be family members can apply for this person to be forcibly committed, that they can be committed for only a maximum of three months, because remember, FMLA leave, I feel like that would leave enough room there for people to, you know, get out and still have their job, you know, when they're done. If they have a job, a lot of people who are super mentally ill don't have a job. And then Basically, having a three-month time limit would stop the government from randomly throwing people in there indefinitely, and then also having family members apply for it would, once again, stop the government from just randomly chucking people in there for long periods of time.
Stephanie Winn: That was what I proposed. It seems like there are a few situations that wouldn't fall under that umbrella, like if the person has no family members, which tragically is the case for a lot of people, or they're completely estranged. So with your plan, though, which does encapsulate a lot of people, what happens towards the end of that three-month period?
Audra Worlow: They go to a nice halfway house. They get help finding a job. Then they save up for their own apartment, and then they go, and they're free. And they're free to live their lives healthy and happy. and with food in their bellies and not dying on the streets, freezing to death. In here in Ohio, we have an issue with people every year. They freeze to death and die every winter.
Stephanie Winn: I think that's part of why there's such a huge homeless population in Portland. It's not just our policies, but it's also that it's the sad thing is though it keeps people just on the brink of death because it's not California or Hawaii. It does get cold here. It snows for about a week every winter. So, you know, it just and it's wet and it's dark and I think it just keeps people just hovering on the brink of death. It's really sad. And I will say that as much as listeners of my show, many of them listen to this show because of the gender critical content. I know a lot of my audience is ROGD parents, rapid onset gender dysphoria parents. I know that because they reach out and schedule calls with me, which anyone can do, link in the show notes. I will say that this pressure to affirm, the affirmation only model in the mental health field has done so much damage. to appropriate services. And it's most obvious in the cases of teenagers and young adults not being able to get proper therapy whenever they say the magic word gender identity. But it's also, downstream of that, there are so many other things. Like, for example, I hear a lot of stories of trans-identified young people who are out of their parents' care, so their parents can only see so much, but there's a lot of evidence that these hormones are wreaking havoc on their mental health. Especially, like, the young men The ones in their 20s and 30s who are, they've been on estrogen a year or two, and they're smoking lots of weed, and they're not working, and they're not motivated. Like, I'm seeing evidence of potential psychosis symptoms in the things that parents are reporting to me that they're picking up on, but because of the gender piece, that will not be assessed properly. Whatever that person says about them is what's going to be endorsed by the mental health community. And the last thing you're ever going to hear is any mental health professional or doctor saying maybe it's the hormones. Same thing, we're all, you know, everyone in our sort of Twitter circle. I mean, I'm not in an official Twitter circle with you, but you and I have a lot of, you know, mutuals. And we've all been seeing these videos going around of that woman who calls herself Aslan Bird or something like that. This woman clearly decompensating, she says that she has all these diagnoses and she's on testosterone and she comes across as manic and comes across with a lot of traits of personality disorders. And a lot of people are sharing these videos in sort of like a ruthless mocking way or sort of a cold way, but I, as much as I did include some of her videos as examples in a thread that I've been collecting, I have a thread on X of videos of trans-identified people behaving in ways that are indicative of traits of personality disorders, not to diagnose, of course, any of these given individuals and say that person has this personality disorder, but to say, this is what this personality disorder looks like. These are traits and behaviors. And here are examples, because my whole approach, and I'll be releasing a project soon that clarifies this approach further, but it's this concept of the social contagion trifecta, that it's not just gender identity ideology. It's also working in combination with cluster B personality type traits and behaviors. particular beliefs about social justice. And those three things work together. And so in a lot of these young people, I'm not saying they all have personality disorders. I'm saying that being caught up in the social contagion trifecta brings out the worst in them and teaches them to behave in ways that are characteristic of personality disorders. So I shared some of Aslan Bird's videos just to finish this thought. I shared some of her videos into this thread where I'm demonstrating like this is a trait of narcissism and here is a trait of histrionic personality disorder and what it looks like. And as much as I did share these videos of Aslan Byrd saying these things, or demonstrating these things, some of the ways that I see people sharing her videos, I'm just too sensitive because I feel for her. Like, yes, there are people mocking her, but I really feel for the breakdown this woman is having. And you wonder, How much of it is the testosterone that is doing this to her mind? I mean, obviously, there was something to begin with where this started, but these drugs can make people decompensate.
Audra Worlow: Some of the studies that I read, as I kept interacting with more and more, we'll say, trans-identified people, I sort of shared with you that whole fallout situation with Julia Mallott in a DM. Not too long ago, I'm sure you don't remember and that's okay, you probably get it a lot.
Stephanie Winn: I remember seeing Julia Malotta and being like, nope.
Audra Worlow: Yes, and what's interesting is I finally did some digging into studies and something like 83% have a personality disorder and 53% of them have narcissistic personality disorder. I was like, oh, well, this explains why I really don't like these people. It's really sad to say it that way, But as somebody who also comes from a family with narcissistic abuse in it, who also comes with a family of schizo personality disorder and stuff like that. I'm good. You know what I mean? I don't need crazy in my life. And I think that's really sad, actually, because I think a lot of these people, they need social interaction because they're so isolated and they're online all day. And I don't think that's helping their mental health either. But at the same time, I'm not I'm not going to be, you know, used as like a human narcissistic supply.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Sumtherapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Sumtherapist. And use code Sumtherapist to take 20% off your order. I appreciate you bringing that up and this is one of the things that I will be speaking to increasingly as I have a project that will be launching soon. And once that project launches, I'll be sharing more information about it, and I will say it is founded on this idea of the social contagion trifecta. And a lot of people who are speaking about the gender issue either are not mental health professionals, or if they are mental health professionals, they're being very careful about how they do it, understandably for good reason, because they need to protect their license, they need to protect their professional respectability, because people will take anything they say out of context and distort it and use it to slander them, So I have nothing but respect for any mental health professional that is outspoken about this. But the one thing I'm willing to do that I don't see a lot of other people being either qualified to do or willing to do is acknowledge that piece that you just acknowledged, Audra, which is that a significant portion of trans identified people do have personality disorders, specifically cluster B personality disorders. And we're looking at narcissistic and borderline the most. And we see a lot of antisocial traits, we see a lot of histrionic traits, we see a lot of really histrionic behavior on TikTok that people are mimicking and emulating and replicating and learning from and internalizing. I think we also have autistic young people who are mimicking histrionic behavior because they're seeing histrionic behavior online, and this is how autistic people are learning how to mask. So the project I'm releasing is one of the first, if not the only, things that I know of that is a comprehensive resource for concerned parents and family members that acknowledges we are looking at personality disorder traits and behaviors here. Can't diagnose or treat anyone, but we have to look at that component of things because once you understand that cluster B traits are part of the picture, it does affect your strategy.
Audra Worlow: Well, it reminded me. It reminded me of certain people that I had the unfortunate interaction with in my childhood and also reminded me of the type of people that I read about in police reports. And their behaviors reminded me, you know, watching interviews between suspects. You know what I mean? Like their behaviors reminded me of not very nice people. That's when I decided to do some digging. Again, I'm not a mental health professional, although, I don't know, I'm considering maybe. I don't know. I love studying psychology, but at the same time, the field looks weird to me.
Stephanie Winn: I know that you are Catholic, which we have not talked about on this episode, but I will say I had a member of my local community who joined specifically, I think one of the reasons that this person joined was because they were looking for, they were interested in becoming a therapist. I have a lot of people reach out to me or join my community or things like that because they're thinking about becoming a therapist, but they're like, is it worth it? Has the field completely lost its mind? Am I going to be able to keep my mouth shut and jump through the hoops I need to jump through while surrounded with crazy ideology? So anyway, this person ended up going to a Catholic grad school. And I'm not sure that he himself is Catholic. I don't know. But he found that a faith-based institution seemed to be the most sane choice. And I think that I guess it's my own personal speculation. I don't know enough about this issue to really comment with any expertise. But it does seem like there's a certain amount of freedom afforded to religious groups still to practice and study according to their faith. Whereas if you don't have that sort of religious protection, if you can't say, well, I'm Catholic, so I'm going to a Catholic program where we study the Catholic approach, if you don't have that, then you're kind of like you must submit to the woke ideology or be punished by the group.
Audra Worlow: not to toot my own horn, but I love being Catholic. But what I will say is that, yeah, the Catholic faith is pretty cool. I would say but they were, what's interesting is they were the first ones to talk about the religious element of trans ideology, like the mystic dualistic effect. And It was very interesting. You can go on one, just type in Gnostic dualism Catholic, and I'm sure that it will pop right up. But they made a statement about this idea that you can be born in the wrong body, or that your soul or your mind can be separate from your body. They're like, this is a religious belief, and we believe that The body and the mind are one, you know, and what's interesting is if you look even further back in history, there was a group of people who felt that If you were, they discouraged sex and they discouraged people getting married and having children because they felt that to have a child would mean that the soul would be trapped in the body and that the only way to achieve freedom would be to kill yourself and then you would have your soul be released. And obviously, they didn't last very long as a religion. But in other words, what's interesting about Catholicism is you can really look at history like in a very deep way. And you know that this whole idea of being born in the wrong body, this isn't a new idea. This is something that was running around in about 1480. And unfortunately, all those people killed themselves. and they were dead. And that's why this is interesting to me to see that this almost religious element to this come back, you know, in in like a way. And and I think When a lot of people talk about, oh, death before detransition, I think that's where a lot of that comes from. I think, you know, I would rather have a free body, be free from my body than live in a body that doesn't meet my specific ramifications. And as a Catholic, we kind of believe our bodies are a gift. And so we should take care of it and treat it with respect. and that not every day is owed to us. But you only get one body and you should love your body because it's a temple of the Holy Spirit. Sorry for preaching for a second.
Stephanie Winn: No, it's okay. I'm in the process of scheduling an interview with one of the Catholic professors of that person I mentioned before who requested that I do a conversation on you know, a faith-based approach to counseling. And actually, one of my dearest friends is Catholic as well. My mom was Catholic. My fiancé grew up Catholic. And one of the things I'm fascinated by right now is how so many detransitioners are finding comfort and meaning and hope in conservative religious traditions. That's something that I intend to look into further, you know, especially those who came from really kind of radical, anything-goes, sexually depraved or sexually boundless you know, culture at an early age, that they're looking for those deep-rooted traditions with structure. And I don't know enough about the Catholic faith to speak with any expertise on this, although I do have a number of people of the Catholic faith who turn towards me for guidance on navigating the gender crisis. But I think some of the some of the wisdom embodied, encapsulated in certain religious traditions. It takes a certain amount of life experience to appreciate that wisdom.
Audra Worlow: Yeah. And, and I just, I think it's interesting how everybody thinks they're original. And then when you look at history, it's like, actually, none of us are all these ideas just recycle.
Stephanie Winn: And that's well, that's the trap. That's part of the trapping. So this is why the resource I'm developing, if I may to my own horn is important, because it takes into account the psychological state of adolescents and young adults. And that includes a massive amount of hubris. It includes an ego of I am morally and superior morally and intellectually superior to other people. My ideas are original. I'm not that sort of person who's capable of being duped and where a lot of parents get it wrong when they're trying to get their kids out of the gender cult is to to say things to their kids that carry the message on some level that you're no different than any human being. You're just as mentally fallible. You could be mistaken about yourself. You have been fooled. You have been duped. Look at all the times throughout history that people just like you have gotten swept up in bad ideas. Parents coming at it from that angle, that's an uphill battle because it's not taking into account the mental state of a young person who thinks that they're the smartest person to ever walk the planet, and their ideas are completely original. And, you know, like, so you gotta take a different approach. But yes, I mean, by the time we reach midlife, hopefully, we've been humbled, and we have had enough life experience to know that I am affected by human nature. Human nature is a thing that exists that characterizes everyone, including me, in various combinations. And there are things I can learn from the fallibility of other human beings, and recognize my own fallibility in that too.
Audra Worlow: Right. And just like what we talked about, not to circle back, but the fallibility of thinking that if you apply, if you give criminals an outlet for their criminal behavior, that they'll stop hurting people. Hurting people is part of the fun. That's how you get their jollies. So there's no And part of the way they get their jollies, too, is that honey, you know, grooming the family, grooming the kid. You know, I was reading a thread from this woman named Tania. I think she's another psychologist. Tania Marshall? Yes. And she was talking about how this guy kept moving this jar around the house. And every time his wife would point out, he'd be like, oh, well, you must have been mistaken. It must have always been there. and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, she put up cameras in the house about this jar. And and I understand gaslighting. You know, I understand that gaslighting is a tool that people use and and to violate people and et cetera. But I didn't quite understand that this man got jollies out of manipulating his wife in that way. if that makes any sense. I didn't understand that he got sick kicks out of it on top of I figured he was manipulating her for a reason other than enjoyment. But that that's what I mean by when people don't when you don't understand how people think you can't fix it. And I think that's part of the reason why I'm really happy that I left the field, to be honest with you, because you know how when you stare too much into darkness, the darkness will stare back into you. I really do. It make it makes normal conversations with people hard. I remember one of our the babysitter's mother asked my husband, oh, are you two going out for dinner? And he was like, well, she's making sure that I'm not in the house. And I said to him, I don't think that they think the way that we think about the world. You know, I think she was just making polite conversation, asking us, you know, what we were doing while her daughter watched our daughter. you know, and yeah, it, but if you don't understand how these people think, and that they're probing for information, you won't, you won't understand that to this day, if somebody asked me what I'm doing, I assume that they're trying to figure out what I'm doing to either criticize it or to stop me from doing it. I have to stop myself whenever I hear the phrase, what are you doing? Respond like a normal person. Oh, I'm just putting flowers together or whatever instead of responding with, well, why do you want to know?
Stephanie Winn: Yes. Well, I hear the impact of the vicarious trauma from the work that you've done and the trouble with that sort of thing is that there's always an element of truth in it. It's just that you were spending presumably 40 hours a week immersed in the darkest corner of the human psyche and so yes, you saw something real, But I still, I still value a line from my favorite punk band as a teenager, Operation Ivy. Jesse Michaels had this line, jaded eyes see clearly, but only half of what is there. It's like, yes, you saw something real. It's just that you were very immersed in the darkest place you could possibly be and maybe not getting a well rounded picture. And it is important to remember those other perspectives that yeah, most people don't think this way. But at the same time, you know, despite the fact that it's only a minority, a small minority of the population that is criminal minded that way, that to a lesser extent, the same cautions apply to, you know, if we're going to take into account envy, for example, I'm a big fan of Robert Greene, the laws of human nature, I it's actually, I need to add it to my recommended rating for ROGD parents, because a lot of the principles that he articulates so clearly about human nature are the same principles I'm taking into account with the strategic approach to dealing with the social contagion trifecta. And he points out in the laws of human nature when he discusses the nature of envy, for example, it's so important to remember that not everyone wishes us well. And, you know, And we all project our own mindset onto other people. And so I'm not a particularly envious person. And I think part of that is just the nature of who I am. Part of that is having worked as a therapist, I know what's behind the scenes. I can see a person in the context of everything they've had to go through to be where they're at. And I'm not just cherry picking. I'm not just looking at, oh, this person's beautiful or this person's wealthy or successful in this department. I want that for myself because I know that they had to sacrifice so much to get there or that it's coming at the expense of something else. So I'm not just like, oh, I would trade places with someone who has some advantage over me. Like, that's not how I think. But it would be a mistake for me to project how I think onto other people because a lot of people don't think that way. A lot of people are envious. and they can look at me, for example, or they can look at you, and they can see some domain in which we excel and want that for themselves without respecting what it took to get there.
Audra Worlow: Part of the thing that scared me so badly about, I guess, the trans-identified males, the trans women, whatever you want to call them, is just this underlying current of anger and resentment that I would hear in Julia's voice, like when I would talk to him. Contempt. Yes. Anger, a tremendous amount of anger just bubbling right underneath the surface there. I know he scared me, which is why I ended up, you know, blocking him because he scares me. Because just that level of contempt and anger was just something that I sensed and I didn't like it. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of, I think, I wish, I wish that a lot of trans identified people, I wish that they would Instead of being envious of what other people look like in their bodies, maybe spent more time loving themselves. I think that that would be really good. Good for people, you know? Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, yeah. One of my memes from when I was on a meme-making binge last September was- I loved that.
Audra Worlow: I loved that binge, by the way. It was my favorite.
Stephanie Winn: It was mocking, you know, this saying that has been uttered, I can't remember by who exactly in the gender-affirming world. that someone has been recorded famously for saying something like, well, if you want breasts later, you can always just go and get them, right, as a way of dismissing how harmful and permanent these radical elective double mastectomies are on young girls. And so I made this meme mocking that, that said, do you hate your ugly feet with a picture of ugly feet? Then it said, doctors can cut them off for you. If you ever want feet later, you can go and get them with a picture of prosthetic legs.
Audra Worlow: Well, and here's my unpopular opinion on the internet. And I know it's unpopular because people see it, but they don't like it. I strongly believe that surgeons have an element of psychopathy to them.
Stephanie Winn: Oh, that's not an unpopular opinion. That's a well-established fact.
Audra Worlow: Really? That's good to know because I was thinking about it the other day and about how frightening it would be for me to cut somebody open and see their blood spilling everywhere and trying to remain calm. Even when I'm trying to help them, it would still be in, I don't even think I would do it. It would be like this, me shaking with the scalpel and no amount of training that you gave me I think would enable me to be able to do that properly. Unless maybe I disassociate from myself, I could probably do it then.
Stephanie Winn: So I'm not saying because you know there's always those bad faith actors, people who are going to uncharitably interpret everything you say. I'm not saying every surgeon is a sociopath. That is not what I'm saying. However, rates of sociopathy are high in the surgeon population. And, you know, there's there's this idea of the benevolent sociopath, this sort of evolutionary perspective that we've always needed a handful of strong men, particularly in our society to sew people up when they're wounded, to butcher our animals, to go to war for us. And I found myself explaining this concept to people when I've seen it in fathers in a family, for instance, and how is that correlated with narcissism, with autism, with sociopathy. For some people, it's just a different brain type, and they've learned to behave in a pro-social way, and they're not hurting anyone. They're not They don't have that trait that we were talking about earlier of sadism, of actually getting pleasure out of hurting people. They just don't have the same visceral empathy response that we do. They don't have that fear, disgust. Their mirror neurons aren't firing in the same way that yours or mine would be at the sight of blood, for instance. And yeah, I think there's a place in society for people whose brains are wired that way. I am grateful for butchers. I eat meat. There was a long time in my life that I didn't eat meat. But now that I eat meat, I'm very grateful for butchers. I'm grateful for, you know, people who do jobs that my brain certainly is not wired to do with my high levels of empathy.
Audra Worlow: Yeah. And now and I just I remember just not to speak to personally, but when I was going to my OBGYN while I was pregnant, now he's a very good doctor. I'm not going to name him by name, but his eyes lit up like a Christmas tree when he was talking about how much he loves to do C-sections. I touched my belly and I had a visceral reaction like, this is making me uncomfortable. He's a good doctor, but he gets real excited to do C-sections. He's like, don't get me wrong, I love to do C-sections. I love them. You're like, why?
Stephanie Winn: I was like, no. He's like, can I cut that open for you? You're like, no. I was just I was having dinner with a pediatrician last night who shared about her process of choosing the path of becoming a pediatrician. She originally thought she wanted to be a surgeon, and then she discovered on rotations that she hated surgeons. She had stories to share about surgeon behavior, let's just say.
Audra Worlow: I mean, it was very abnormal to me because to me, I'm like, oh, man, I really don't want to cut anybody open ever. You know, I want you to be healthy and happy and yeah.
Stephanie Winn: OK, OK. So let me tie this in. I'm actually going to bring this home for our people who are still listening this far into the episode who are I know we have my parents in the audience. I see you guys. I hear you. You book calls with me. You schedule consultations. You're about to do the project that I'm launching soon. You guys, I have something for you. Think about that visceral empathy that most of us feel, the disgust and fear that we think, you know, at the thought of blood, needles, scalpels, all that kind of stuff. The things that distinguish us from, let's say, the benign sociopathic surgeon or butcher. Okay. Now imagine that your child is in the majority of those of us who feel fear and disgust at flesh being carved up. Now imagine that your child has injected cross-sex hormones into their boyfriend or girlfriend or their trans-identified friend. Okay, this is a thing that you parents need to know about. because it is happening. And I have had consultations with multiple parents where after they've explained to me details about the life of the person they are concerned about, I'm like, okay, so your trans-identified child is dating another trans-identified person. Is that person on drugs? Okay. Is it possible that your child has been the one to inject those drugs? And it had never occurred. Every single parent that I've talked through this, it had never occurred to them before, and then they realized it was possible. If that is the case, and your child does not have the sociopathic brain type that doesn't have those natural visceral feelings, think about the way that they would have to cope by dissociating, by repressing their emotions, and by doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on their rationalization for why the thing they just did is actually a good thing, right? This thing that contradicts their physical impulse. Because when I think about how I would feel to inject a needle into someone I love, I would really have to be very certain, like even if I was doing it to save their life, which is the circumstance under which I would do it, I would still have to be like, it would be mind over matter, like this is saving his life, this is saving his life, this is what I have to do to save his life right now because my visceral reaction. So imagine your child doing that. This has doubled, tripled, quadrupled down their rationalization of the idea of gender-affirming care as life-saving. This is what I have to do. yada, yada, yada. So this is just another series of bricks in the wall to them hearing you. Just something to keep in mind with regard to your psychological, your child's psychological state and the, you know, the battle that you're up against here. Well, it's been great to talk to you, Audra. What would you like to share with people about where they can find you?
Audra Worlow: You can find me at Audra Ronspeak on Twitter. It's one word, Audra Wrongspeak. A-U-D-R-A.
Stephanie Winn: Okay, thanks so much for joining me, Audra. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit sometherapist.com. Or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at sometherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.