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Where cultivation excellence meets unfiltered insight—the Corner Office—hosted by Greg Dunaway. Powered by AROYA's revolutionary approach to data-driven growing, we bring you the brightest minds behind today's biggest breakthroughs.
Stay ahead in this rapidly evolving landscape, from cutting-edge solutions to market strategy.
Greg Dunaway [00:00:00]:
Today's episode. I am super excited. We have Jeremy Berke with us, formerly of Business Insider and now with Cultivated News. He is one of the leading journalists in the cannabis space. He has sources across Capitol Hill, across the United States. He has his finger on the pulse of our industry. We are so lucky to have Jeremy. Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Greg Dunaway [00:00:22]:
Let's get into it, Jeremy. Let's dive right in, dude. Because one of the questions I think that you've really, you've handled really well and your readers are keenly interested in is we have a president who says a lot of, let's just say, oddball things, yet we have a situation where he has indicated to the markets and again, in a normal environment, when a president says something, the markets react.
Jeremey Berke [00:00:47]:
Right.
Greg Dunaway [00:00:47]:
And our market has a history of overreactions. Our president said he'd like to make a rescheduling decision in a few weeks. What was your take take on that comment and what has kind of been the reaction that you've heard?
Jeremy Berke [00:01:03]:
Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me on this show, Greg. I'm really excited to be here and to jump in. Look, I want to be pretty careful with talking about what I know and what I don't know.
Jeremey Berke [00:01:13]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:01:14]:
I think on the first hand, what I know is that Trump was open to rescheduling, which is reclassifying cannabis from the most restrictive Schedule 1 to a much less restrictive Schedule 3. On the campaign trail, you know, the industry certainly has been in his ear and has been in the ear of many of his allies. However, you know, we are now eight months into his administration where he's made really one seemingly offhand comment about it.
Jeremey Berke [00:01:44]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:01:44]:
He said we'll have a decision coming. It was a very non committal decision. And so look like we can read into that, but we can read into that the market certainly like that. That comment came on August 11th, it is now September 19th, that we're recording this and nothing has really happened. And so look like, you know, you can take the glass half full approach and say the president is very busy, as every president is, and they're working through it, they'll get to it in time. Or you can take the glass half empty approach and say, like, this is not a political priority. He said that on the campaign trail to score some relatively cheap political points. And you know, we are in a world where this may not happen until after the midterms or after Trump is president.
Jeremy Berke [00:02:28]:
Look like if I knew the answer to that question, and I say this a lot, I'd run a Hedge fund, not a media company. And I'd have made a lot of money. And so I really don't know. However, I want to also say, you know, President Trump says a lot of things, he does a lot of things. I have my own views about his competence and leadership. But anyone who gets elected to president twice has some good political instincts.
Jeremey Berke [00:02:53]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:02:53]:
And rescheduling is good politics for Republicans, and it's especially good politics for MAGA Republicans who want to attract Gen Z, the youth vote, cleave off Democratic voters. And so, you know, I think Trump does see that. However, you know, putting the over under on when this will happen, I have no idea. I really don't. And I don't think anyone does.
Greg Dunaway [00:03:15]:
Yeah. And I think that's a really hard takeaway for our market. Right. Which is, again, in a different administration, the President says something, things tend to happen. I want to dive into something that's very interesting that you just said. It's this smart political play, right. It makes sense. You want to cleave off those young voters, get them engaged, you help them, get them excited about cannabis.
Jeremey Berke [00:03:37]:
Right.
Greg Dunaway [00:03:39]:
How, what, what has been your read on the typical congressional Republican who's out there, you know, who's hearing these rescheduling things? I guess one question that I have is, is it performative when they're out there going like, this devil weed's gonna ruin it? I don't, because normally they just jump in line with Trump right there. If he says, you know, the sky is pink, they're all like, sky's pink, we got it. So what's been your read on that?
Jeremy Berke [00:04:06]:
This is a tricky issue and I don't want to get out over my skis too much talking about the political calculus in the House. Right. That's not my area of expertise, but I have a little bit of reporting knowledge on it. You know, I think the theme in which I think about this, right, the Republicans right now are a very, very big tent. There are MAGA Republicans, there are the old sort of social conservatives, the Reaganites, like those that is still a very active force. There's evangelicals, right. And so Trump and J.D. vance to, to a lesser extent have this job of keeping this whole tent together.
Jeremy Berke [00:04:43]:
And cannabis is a very, very controversial issue within that tent. I think you see, you know, hardcore MAGA Republicans, you know, Florida's Matt Gaetz, who's now out of office, is sort of the, the standard bearer of that, right? Very pro cannabis, pro small business, you know, anti drug war.
Jeremey Berke [00:05:01]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:05:01]:
They see it as government Overreach. And it hits all these sort of quasi libertarian tendencies that many in the MAGA movement have. But look, you know, the average sitting representative in the House and Senate in the Republican party is around 60 years old.
Jeremey Berke [00:05:19]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:05:20]:
They grew up in a time where cannabis was viewed as evil. Those social stigmas die very hard. And I think, look, are they embellishing a little bit their viewpoints to score political points? Absolutely. That that's part of the process of political communication. At the same time, I do really feel, in terms of my reporting, when I talk to staffers, even the members themselves, there is severe opposition to any sort of cannabis reform in the Republican Party. Severe opposition. I think, you know, a lot of investors, particularly retail investors, you know, either are unaware of that or they bury their heads in the sand about it because they look at Trump and say, look, this guy is pro cannabis. May or may not be true, but they don't really understand how powerful the Reaganite movement still is within the Republican Party.
Jeremy Berke [00:06:09]:
And I think that is a huge opposition to getting over the hump. Now, that being said, if somehow, you know, Mike Johnson, a Southern Republican, gets on board with rescheduling, look, they may.
Jeremey Berke [00:06:21]:
Fall in line, right?
Jeremy Berke [00:06:22]:
That may absolutely happen, to your point. But as of right now, you know, I see that there's a lot of opposition to cannabis legalization. And you can make all the good arguments you want to make about medical use, about reducing crime, about free markets, about job growth. Those fall in deaf ears when it comes to drug use. For many Republicans, I guess one of their.
Greg Dunaway [00:06:43]:
One other thing is when you talk to these staffers, you know, every politician makes promises, right? Do you get this sense when you do this reporting? Do they even think this is going to happen? Do they really think this is going to happen?
Jeremy Berke [00:06:59]:
I don't know. And I'm not trying to say that as a cop out. I think every staffer at every office believes that their priorities will happen, right? You have to have a strong belief to get anything passed in D.C. right? And so you have to have that conviction. You know, at the same time, you know, I don't invest in the space because I cover it. I don't. I don't want to bias my reporting. My determination.
Jeremy Berke [00:07:23]:
If I was an investor, I would not bet on it. And that's anecdotal, right? It's anecdotal coming from, you know, my experience reporting, you know, as a reporter, you tend to have a lot of conversations, a lot of people, and you learn how to read people pretty well. And so to answer your question, like, I think there's a lot of unknowns, you know, however, this is the Trump administration. This is 2025, you know, he could make this all wrong tomorrow and say, hey, look, we're rescheduling.
Jeremey Berke [00:07:54]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:07:54]:
And so. So I want to be clear that, like, I really don't know. I just have my personal viewpoint on it, and I think it's going to be a long time, you know, to really sort of underscore the question.
Jeremey Berke [00:08:06]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:08:07]:
I do think it's going to be after the midterms. I think there was a window in August where they might have moved on it. I think the unfortunate shooting of Charlie Kirk has really thrown their legislative agenda for a loop, and now they're focused on other things. And so I think that changes the calculus a lot.
Greg Dunaway [00:08:29]:
Yeah, definitely. I have a very kind of more fun question for you. I don't know if even these staffers would ever be that honest with you. Do you get the impression that cannabis use is actually relatively prevalent in Washington, D.C. among even Republican staffers or. Or the Republican Party? Or are they ever that forthright with you?
Jeremy Berke [00:08:51]:
No, I mean, I would say they're not, like, to answer question honestly, they're not ever that. That forthright. You know, at the same time, a lot of young staffers are in their 20s.
Jeremey Berke [00:09:02]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:09:02]:
Like, they consume the product, Republican or Democrat, I think, you know, that's pretty standard. Like, you, you can just sort of look at the usage charts, uses increasing among young people. Like that. That pattern holds.
Jeremey Berke [00:09:14]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:09:15]:
Whether it's in D.C. or in Arizona.
Jeremey Berke [00:09:17]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:09:18]:
So I think that's true, but I think, you know, it's the support for this issue, from what I understand is a mile wide and an inch deep. Everyone likes it. You know, sorry, young people, all young people like it, but do they really want to move on it? Do they really want to say that this takes priority to over a litany of other issues each office is handling? I don't know. I don't know how passionate many of them are. And you do need passion to get things passed. Like, that's why there are activists in D.C. that's why they have such a huge role on whatever side of the issue they're on in getting legislation through. And, you know, I think for that to happen, the industry does need a little bit more of that.
Jeremey Berke [00:09:59]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:09:59]:
I think we've seen it as a bit of a settled issue in recent years, and it's not. It's absolutely not like this thing could the other direction. So I think we need that grassroots energy, for sure. And political staffers offices respond to that.
Greg Dunaway [00:10:15]:
Jeremy, one key thing that's happened recently in terms of momentum, we all heard, I think it might have been leaked, who knows by who, but that Kim Rivers not only attended a dinner with the president, but also it looks as if she's identifying lobbyists to kind of whisper into his ear, how effective do you think that's been? And do you think his recent comments were actually a result of her lobbying?
Jeremy Berke [00:10:37]:
I think it's been super effective.
Jeremey Berke [00:10:39]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:10:40]:
I mean, it's been effective in terms of getting Trump to parrot the talking points that the industry wants.
Jeremey Berke [00:10:47]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:10:47]:
Whether that turns into actual. An actual executive order legislation, I think remains to be seen. But I will say to Kim Rivers credit, she has been in the room. She is spending money. That is the language that Trump speaks. And his comments on the campaign trail were very much a laundry list of what the industry wants.
Jeremey Berke [00:11:07]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:11:07]:
It was rescheduling. It was the Safer Banking act, which is a piece of legislation that's never been able to be passed that would allow the cannabis industry to access the financial system, as with any other industry. And so look like this was an industry wish list. It was not very clearly the sort of post 2020 version of legalization that we saw in New York that talks about social justice, about racialized policing. And that is a very different view, and certainly one Trump does not share. And I think, you know, whether or not you agree with that, to Kim Rivers credit, she got the industry wish list in Trump's ear, and that is effective. And that for the industry is what they should be doing.
Jeremey Berke [00:11:50]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:11:51]:
You know, she's doing her fiduciary responsibility, running Trulieve in terms of getting legislation passed, assisting to get legislation passed that would help her company.
Jeremey Berke [00:12:02]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:12:02]:
And help her peer companies. You know, I don't know the inner workings about how effective the strategy will be in the long run.
Jeremey Berke [00:12:11]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:12:11]:
Like, they certainly got that true social post, but whether that turns into an executive action, I think it remains to be seen. And I don't know what more levers they have to pull. I mean, they really did get that post. They got the lip service. And so turning that lip service into action, I think is a whole other step.
Greg Dunaway [00:12:30]:
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that you kind of ballparked post midterms for anything. Anyway, it's an interesting insight, and I think it's politically relevant and operationally relevant for a lot of people that, look, she might be going around doing this, but the likelihood of Kind of the political climate is who's going to make this hard pivot Right now, it doesn't even really make sense for anyone to make this pivot in the right.
Jeremy Berke [00:12:55]:
And I think, look, the benefits of rescheduling are very, very clear for operators, right? I think I'm sure your viewers, listeners know this, but getting rid of the 280 attacks frees up so much cash flow, no matter where you are on the cannabis supply chain. It's also, I know there's some consternation among activists about what rescheduling really means and is it too incremental of a step, etc. At the same time, if Trump does push this through, this is arguably the biggest change to federal drug policy since the Nixon administration. That's a huge deal, right? And the fact that we are even talking about this, I think, look, it is not legalization. It does not go very far in terms of, you know, cutting down arrests, et cetera. All these things that, you know, we all in the industry care about, activists certainly care about. But it's a huge, huge signal of normalization. And America is still America, right? The rest of the world looks at how America does things, treats issues, and it follows.
Jeremy Berke [00:14:00]:
And so, you know, I do believe that this is a good thing, that the industry should be aligned and push forward rescheduling. I'm open to saying that, however, if it were realistic that under a Republican administration, under a Donald Trump administration, we would get full legalization, obviously that's where energy should lie. It's just absolutely not realistic at this moment.
Greg Dunaway [00:14:23]:
Love that. Just absolutely not realistic. Which is the real position to take, right? Like we can all wish in one hand, but it's like if it's. Look at the political reality, if you're forecasting it in the next six to 12 months, you're crazy. And speaking of crazy, this is a natural segue to my next topic, which, by the way, you don't have to share my interpretation. The DEA head that Trump picked, Terence Cole.
Jeremy Berke [00:14:56]:
Woof.
Greg Dunaway [00:14:57]:
Is one reaction. He is not someone, I would say, that would be friendly to any kind of rescheduling or the cannabis world at all. What was your read on Trump picking him? Or what's kind of been the reaction that maybe you've heard or your own personal take?
Jeremy Berke [00:15:17]:
Look, all politics is personnel, right? You can have these big ideas, but who actually executes those ideas is extremely important. Terence Cole is not the personnel that the industry or advocates would have wanted to see at the head of the dea, full stop. You know, I think, look, he's a career DEA official. He has his views on drugs, on cannabis. I don't think we're going to change his personal views. So look, I think it's, it's a negative. Absolutely. The DEA has a lot of control in the rescheduling process.
Jeremy Berke [00:15:58]:
Ultimately they are the arbiters of the decision. So look, it's a negative. It's not who we would want it to see. At the same time, you know, Trump does, I don't want to say rule, but he does expresses his power through loyalty and that is expressed in all the federal agencies, including the dea. So look, if Trump wants this to be done, I'm sure Cole will fall in line. But this is not something that Cole is going to do of his own volition. And his comments have been so non committal on the issue to the point where they are negative. And so, you know, I think that this is absolutely who we would not want it to seen in the position.
Jeremy Berke [00:16:45]:
And it's likely that, you know, him and top DA officials will be roadblocks to the process. I think that's something that's absolutely true. You know, still my point about loyalty remains. And so, you know, I don't know enough about the inner working of the DA to say here's the command structure and here's who you should reach and who you shouldn't reach. But the figure ahead at the top is certainly not bullish to me and I think anyone else, I want to.
Greg Dunaway [00:17:16]:
Dive in from this because it's almost a natural segue in terms of how the whole administration treats cannabis. And also some of your excellent reporting for our viewers and our listeners out there. I'm about to refer to a story that got a lot of traction that Jeremy worked on about the ICE raids over at Glass House. Um, from, from your reporting, did, did that raid feel targeted or was it just another cog in kind of this massive, you know, secret police, mass new kind of world that we live in?
Jeremy Berke [00:17:54]:
It's a really good question and I want to be super careful about it because it's, it's a very hot button issue. Did it feel targeted? I think it's not an accident that they went after a cannabis facility. However, I don't believe that sending a chilling, I guess sending a chilling effect on the cannabis industry did not seem like the intended goal. Immigration seemed like the attended goal, illegal immigration. And I think that, you know, they're kind of in this world where like, oh, yeah, and we're also sending a chilling effect to the Cannabis industry, like, that's. That's a marginal good on what we've done. That's at least my read of the situation. However, you know, I can tell you from reported experience that it did send a chilling effect to a lot of California cannabis farms.
Jeremy Berke [00:18:51]:
You know, a lot of operators. I mean, a group of them met right after the raid, which is a zoom meeting that myself and other reporters sat on, and they said, look, this is what happened in the 90s, in the early 2000s under Bush as well, that they had an excuse to crack down. Like, it's immigration now. What'll it be in 10 years? So I think that's absolutely true. However, I don't want to read too much into motivations I don't know about. I don't know what's going on at ice. I don't know why they chose those two glasshouse facilities, you know, but I do know that they were cannabis farms. There is compelling evidence that there was illegal labor on those farms.
Jeremy Berke [00:19:33]:
And I'm not trying to say anything about Glass House, you know, but, you know, it didn't seem like the amount of people violating the law they rounded up was really worth that in any stretch.
Jeremey Berke [00:19:46]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:19:47]:
I think. I think, look, they want to do symbolic things. That's what the Trump administration does. And that was a symbolic thing for many reasons, negative reasons, in my point of view. I mean, others may disagree, but look, they could hit cannabis. They could show strength on illegal immigration. All that being said, it does not bode well for how the administration wants to treat this.
Greg Dunaway [00:20:07]:
Yeah, I think it was quite shocking to see the response given to your point, kind of whatever they claimed that that issue might have been. What, if anything, do you read as the kind of. The longer repercussions of kind of the show of force by the Trump administration? I mean, and I both know, good God, does California have its issues right now, whether it's taxation, whether it's black market, whether it's overregulation. When you were reporting on this issue, what were kind of some of the ramifications, but not only just for Glasshouse, but for other farmers in the space?
Jeremy Berke [00:20:44]:
Look, I think one of the first things they all wanted to do and they all can do is just buckle down on compliance to the nth degree. And I know in California, that's incredibly difficult because there's just not a lot of money to be made thanks to the regulatory environment, but doubling down on compliance, tripling down on ensuring, you know, every single worker that comes through your facility and their documentation status like these are things that cannabis companies have to do and the reason being is that they are scared of repercussions.
Jeremey Berke [00:21:13]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:21:14]:
You know that like enforcement certainly has an effect if you want laws to be followed. But this is not something that the Trump administration is hand waving away. They are trying to send fear into employers to ensure that they are following the law. And this is another way to do it. Using the levers of militarized federal agencies like ICE to go in and do that is a very strong signal. And so that's what the industry is doing and frankly should be doing right now. You need to guard against this. This is kind of scary stuff.
Jeremy Berke [00:21:50]:
And you don't like. Sure you're violating federal law already being a cannabis grower, you do not want to be violating federal law under the Trump administration with immigration right now that's a double whammy. That's going to be very, very difficult to disentangle yourself from. And so I think the industry hears that and they should.
Greg Dunaway [00:22:08]:
Yeah, yeah. I 100% agree to move away from kind of the dire into perhaps what you and I can have a. We'll put on our rose colored glasses for a min. Let's say the midterms do provide a window of time where rescheduling is reconsidered. From the operators that you talk about, it's interesting. There seems to be now this, now that it seems to be maybe a reality. There seems to be two points on the cannabis side, our side. One is Jesus God, hell yes, help us.
Greg Dunaway [00:22:40]:
And the other one is kind of like that Star wars meme, like it's a trap. So from the operators that you talk to, what is the prevailing winds? We know about 280 our operators that you speak with and in your reporting, is it pretty consensus like we need to have this rescheduling or is there more of a concern that there could be kind of a rug pull here?
Jeremy Berke [00:23:04]:
Yeah, it absolutely depends. Right. I think what we've discussed already about rescheduling certainly matters. The 280e going away, I mean paying as you're familiar with upwards of 60, 70% taxes. Just thinking about the math, as wholesale prices fall, that's really hard to manage your margin. I think all operators really, really need that relief. I think number two is cost of capital coming down. While rescheduling may not open capital markets in a robust way.
Jeremy Berke [00:23:35]:
I'm not sure Goldman Sachs is taking us cannabis companies public on the New York Stock Exchange when that happens. Maybe, maybe not. I think they want a little More guidance. Absolutely. It would lower the cost of capital, the cost of debt would come down to more normal rates. There'd be way, way more banks willing to work with the industry other than the smaller credit unions that most rely on right now. So all of that is an environment where businesses can actually get built.
Jeremey Berke [00:24:00]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:24:01]:
I think the third thing is it just sends a signal that probably this is more normal, there's less stigma, it may open more consumers to it. You know, I don't know about that, but I'm just sort of theorizing and it would normalize the industry in many significant ways. You know, I think that is crucial, especially for smaller business, smaller businesses, excuse me, and particularly in New York, where I am social equity focused businesses, like, they really do need this regulatory relief to stay alive and for the original goals of what New York wanted to do in 2021 with its MRTA, the legalization bill. They need regulatory relief to achieve those goals. Absolutely. I think there is this sort of contra view that some of the bigger MSOs, of course, they want rescheduling, they want their tax burden to come down, but at the same time, it means the barbarians may storm the gates.
Jeremey Berke [00:25:01]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:25:01]:
And so they want a little bit more time to plant their flags to, you know, build out their facilities to capture the market, essentially. You know, I don't think this is a judgmental term, but to create monopolies in the states where they operate before they can exit to whoever made it may exit to or to, you know, continue operating as an independent business. So I think that is a contraview. I, you know, it's a little bit conspiratorial. I think, you know, maybe, maybe some executives would admit to that. I don't think everyone would. But look, I think at the end of the day, rescheduling is such a good thing for so many operators in the industry, especially small businesses. I mean, they're set to benefit in a huge way.
Jeremy Berke [00:25:46]:
And I think again, for investors and public companies or retail investors, just the cash flow without paying all that tax is a huge thing. That's money that can be used to expand businesses, to hire people, to get more talent in the industry. All that really, really, really matters for building the industry.
Greg Dunaway [00:26:07]:
And I love that. I think it's dead on. I think it brings up something I really wanted to. I was excited to discuss with you. As an operator myself. I'm always. I die laughing when people. Just last night, someone was like, oh, I'd love to get into cannabis marketing.
Greg Dunaway [00:26:23]:
It sounds so fun and creative and I'm like, oh, God. So from your seat, what when. And again, you. You interact with a lot of different reporters. You were previously at Business Insider. What do a lot of reporters get wrong consistently? Or what are the things that you're like? God, if they just would take the time to get it right. Like, I'm just so curious about that world.
Jeremy Berke [00:26:45]:
Yeah. Oh, I have a ton of thoughts on this. Number one, I just, I wish, like, a lot of reporters are very competitive. I'm not. I wish there was more reporters covering the space on a full time basis or at least even spending half their time on the industry.
Jeremey Berke [00:27:02]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:27:04]:
There are so many complexities to this beat. It is so challenging in so many ways. Not only the regulatory environment, the corporate structures, the way these businesses are forced.
Jeremey Berke [00:27:15]:
To operate.
Jeremy Berke [00:27:18]:
The relative size, industry managing relationships. Just as a reporter is challenging all the time, this industry, it's particularly challenging. And then I think the other piece of that is the broader societal issues that cannabis legalization is a focal point for that. The tension between the left and the right. I think cannabis is a microcosm of all that. And you can see that in the ways that blue states legalize cannabis versus red states legalize cannabis. I mean, just look at New York and Oklahoma, for instance, Oklahoma's medical. But I think the point stands.
Jeremy Berke [00:27:52]:
And so I think that there's so many interesting things to out point pull from. I will say the vast majority of reporters, especially at national publications, don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.
Jeremey Berke [00:28:04]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:28:05]:
They parachute in when there's an interesting story, say, you know, the glass house ICE raids. But they get a lot wrong about the industry because they're not talking to people on the ground. They're not spending a lot of time dealing with the nuances of this. Now, there are some national reporters, you know, New York Times, Ashley Southall does great, great work. Politico has a great cannabis team. But at the same time, I think the beat just needs more reporting. And I think part of effective functioning markets and industries, you have media that's scrutinizing actors. That's how capitalism works.
Jeremy Berke [00:28:40]:
That's a fundamental belief, and that's why I do what I do. Without that, you'd have a lot of things, a lot of wrong things done. A lot of good deeds would go unreported, or a lot of sordid deeds, I should say, would go unreported, and good deeds would go unreported as well, you know, and I think just to sort of square that answer to your specific Question. Yeah, it's parachute journalism in a lot of ways. And so that's part of what we try and solve and cultivated. We want to be of the industry, for the industry. That doesn't mean celebrating the industry. It means calling out people when we feel like we need to do that.
Jeremy Berke [00:29:15]:
But it also means celebrating wins. And so we see that purely as a market gap, I would say.
Greg Dunaway [00:29:22]:
Yeah, I love it. And again, just to reiterate for our listeners and viewers, give Jeremy a follow on Twitter. I still don't call it X. Check out Cultivated News. He's on LinkedIn as well. I want to ask you another question about the role that you're playing. You are one of the rare cannabis reporters out there who's doing this full time. Because our industry is so insular.
Greg Dunaway [00:29:44]:
Do you find it difficult to, pardon the pun, cultivate sources or find those stories? Or is it the opposite? Because there, I can tell you also, it's a lot of, like, knives out in our industry as well, because it's. It is so competitive. Like, where. Where does that. Where does that kind of tension lie for you when you're. When you're pursuing stories or even getting tips about stories?
Jeremy Berke [00:30:03]:
Yeah. Tread carefully, tread lightly. Look like, you know, if this was a larger industry, like, let's say I was covering tech.
Jeremey Berke [00:30:13]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:30:13]:
And maybe also it's a personality thing. Every reporter has their own way. They want to write stories, who they want the subjects to be. I've worked with a lot of journalists who are just knives out all the time, and nothing gets them going more than writing a takedown. And they sort of love the fight, writing the story. They love the fight once the story is published, because that's a whole other thing. You have to get out there and defend yourself a lot of the time. So, look, my instinct in this industry is to tread extremely carefully.
Jeremy Berke [00:30:47]:
Everyone likes a negative story written about their competitor, and they think journalism is great and it's fair, and that's what should be done. As soon as that magnifying glass is turned onto them, my character gets assassinated. So that's part of it. And I think it's also what reporters deal with when you're covering an emerging, emerging industry. I mean, they think that media should be cheerleaders for that. And while certainly, you know, myself, I'm a cheerleader, I consume the product. There's a lot of great people, sources who have become friends, honestly, throughout reporting on this process of legalization. You know, that's not the media's job.
Jeremey Berke [00:31:28]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:31:29]:
At the end of the Day like we are there to be skeptical, not cynical, but skeptical. And to scrutinize, to call out bad actions, to show where labor practices are failing employees, to show where testing practices are failing consumers, to show where businesses are engaging in fraudulent activity. I mean, that's the core of our job description. That's what we believe we do as a bulwark in capitalism and capital markets. And so that's going to make people upset. That's okay. Like, I can handle people being mad at me. At the same time, you know, my lens has certainly shifted going from Business Insider, which is a big national publication with tons of resources and I'm protected, to actually trying to build a company within the industry itself.
Jeremey Berke [00:32:14]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:32:15]:
Obviously that changes the tone of what we report on, how we report on things, how we cover things. And look, I do think that for.
Jeremey Berke [00:32:25]:
Me.
Jeremy Berke [00:32:27]:
Being at a big national publication, like you're supposed to be dispassionate and unbiased. And obviously I can go on a whole soliloquy about how that's impossible for the media in general, but with cultivated. I'm not unbiased.
Jeremey Berke [00:32:40]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:32:40]:
I think legalization is net good and we want to do what's in our power to ensure that cannabis reform does happen while still being rigorous and dispassionate with who we choose to cover, how we cover it, and certainly not investing in the companies we cover or benefiting from any upside other than the media business itself. I want to make that super, super clear to the viewers.
Greg Dunaway [00:33:04]:
I think just I have a few more questions for you. And again, I know how busy you are, Jeremy, but one of the ones I have is out of your reporting. Let's remove kind of the regulatory aspect that you and I have covered today. What have been some of the stories that you've covered that have been concerning to you or maybe ones if we don't want to put it on you, where the readers have said, oh my God, like this is not good for our industry. Because I know you've done some very skeptical work. Which ones really resonated?
Jeremy Berke [00:33:29]:
Oh, I mean, right now testing, the testing infrastructure, I think has the risk of in many states undermining the whole project of legalization. And I don't say that lightly.
Jeremey Berke [00:33:41]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:33:41]:
I mean, I say that not because that's the rational view. I say that that is one of the key things that critics can really pull on that really, really matters.
Jeremey Berke [00:33:50]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:33:50]:
You see that from smarter approaches to marijuana and anti legalization nonprofit from, you know, conservative writers like, you know, I don't Even call them conservative anymore. But Alex Berenson, you know, Charles Lehman at the Manhattan Institute, like, like they rationally pull on this because one of the key promises of legalization was consumer safety.
Jeremey Berke [00:34:13]:
Right?
Jeremy Berke [00:34:14]:
Like, instead of buying, you know, a dimebag in the alleyway, I know that's such like an antiquated concept, but like, yeah, instead of buying a dimebag in the alleyway, which could have been grown with pesticides or have heavy metals, you know, whatever it may be, like, we have a consumer safety infrastructure that's regulated like any other product that we buy, whether it's, I don't know, salad dressing or, you know, some food product.
Jeremey Berke [00:34:37]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:34:38]:
We as consumers are supposed to trust that. You know, policymakers are supposed to trust that. Regulators are supposed to trust that. And sorely we found that it's untrustworthy in many ways. I mean, a lot of these testing labs, I'm not going to name names, but they can read your article.
Greg Dunaway [00:34:54]:
I'll interject. They can read your articles if they want to know more.
Jeremy Berke [00:34:57]:
Yeah, sure, sure.
Jeremey Berke [00:34:58]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:34:58]:
Like there's, there's so many articles out there already and there's, that's, they just scratched the surface of, you know, the ways they pass samples that should have failed for business reasons. The lack of regulations that states have on these testing labs, I mean, look, like if I, if I could wave a wand, I would say that these should be state or even federal. I mean, that's going to be a long way away. Not just regulated agencies, but they should be run by the state itself.
Jeremey Berke [00:35:26]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:35:27]:
Because there needs to be an independent arbiter of what can pass that's not beholden to the interests of getting more clients. Right. Because that's really the problem.
Jeremey Berke [00:35:36]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:35:36]:
Consumers want high potency, you know, and a lot of labs are very willing to hand that out to, to growers and brands, you know, in ways that hurt the consumer. And now look like I'm sort of soapboxing here. Potency is one issue. Like if you say it's, I don't know, some ridiculously high number, 35% THC, and it's actually 23, like, okay, that person is not getting hurt, but if they're combusting pesticides into their lungs and breathing that in, that's really bad. That's really bad. And the problems are going to compound and magnify in the future. And that's absolutely something that the Alex Berenson's of the world can say, look, legalization isn't working. People are still getting sick and lawmakers will be very attuned to that.
Jeremy Berke [00:36:21]:
So I think largely the edifice of legalization of consumer safety lies in testing rigor. That's very, very important.
Greg Dunaway [00:36:30]:
Yeah, agreed. Sidebar question. I have actually noticed an uptick in some of the anti cannab cannabis billboards out here in Arizona, for example. I can only imagine where it is everywhere by and large in your reporting and your sources. Who has the capital and the willpower to be funding these things?
Jeremy Berke [00:36:49]:
Yeah, the reason I laugh at the question is you can go on Twitter and see conspiracy theories about it, like, oh, it's all big pharma, et cetera, to sort of, not to be rude or anything, but the classic RFK voter thinks it's big pharma.
Jeremey Berke [00:37:06]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:37:06]:
You know, and like there's, there's that like continuum, right? And, and yes, certainly there are big pharmaceutical companies that do fund anti legalization work and research. And that, that is absolutely true. However, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I would really point the finger at social conservatives, right? Like at the end of the day, it is really social conservatives who just do not want another drug being legalized in the US And a lot of it, like, you know, any sort of company that is funding this work, like it's not really road safety they care about, right. It's not really the children. I mean the children are an excuse for so many social activist causes in many ways. It's like they just do not like weed. Social conservatives do not like weed and they will fight tooth and nail to not have it be legalized, not have canis reform happen. Now look like I do think, I don't want to sort of hand wave away the pharma argument.
Jeremy Berke [00:38:04]:
Like there are, it's credible to a certain extent. There are very many pharmaceutical companies who are threatened I think by the possibilities of compounds in the cannabis plant and what they could bring.
Jeremey Berke [00:38:15]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:38:15]:
For sleep, especially sleep, I would say, but for better health in many ways. I mean, these are plant botanicals that threaten drugs that they've spent millions to put through clinical trials and patent. And so of course they are fighting it, however, like that grand conspiracy that the pharma industry is trying to keep weed illegal. You know, I don't know that that kind of dies on the vine to me when the simpler explanation, the Occam's rage explanation, is that evangelicals and social conservatives don't like it. And they're still a hugely powerful voting bloc. They sit in many corporations, economic development boards, police unions, et cetera. Like this is the grassroots that really matters. To push back against it.
Greg Dunaway [00:38:57]:
Yeah. And I think it's also.
Jeremy Berke [00:38:58]:
I don't know if you would agree with.
Greg Dunaway [00:38:59]:
No, no. It's funny. I actually happen to know some people in the pharmaceutical realm and it's laughable to think that they're not also quietly doing their own research that we probably don't know about. It's laughable to think that they don't want to make a shit ton of money when it, when it flips. And so that, to me has always, to your argument why that, why that dies on the vine for me is like, those guys, the second they can, are going to make a shit ton of money off of it.
Jeremy Berke [00:39:20]:
Yeah. And I think, I mean, I will say, like, this gets sort of the nuances of the argument a little bit, but it's like, you know, pharmaceutical companies have an invested interest in being able to isolate a specific molecule or compound and patent it.
Jeremey Berke [00:39:34]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:39:35]:
Cannabis is a natural botanical and this is not my expertise, so just, you know, sort of here on my argument. But cannabis is natural botanical, where all these molecules work in concert with each other.
Jeremey Berke [00:39:44]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:39:45]:
That is much harder to patent and to extract value from and to even get it passed through a clinical trial the way the FDA is set up. And so, you know, I think there is a chat. I think cannabis does pose a challenge in terms of. But in terms of the botanical nature of what it is versus, you know, ibuprofen, let's say, where they can take that specific molecule, extract value, protect it with patents.
Jeremey Berke [00:40:07]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:40:07]:
And so, you know, I think that's absolutely operative. But to your point. No, absolutely. I mean, look, if they could do that with, you know, any sort of rare cannabinoid and set up the supply chain to do it, they would certainly do it.
Jeremey Berke [00:40:18]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:40:18]:
Like, they're not silly about that. These are savvy operators.
Greg Dunaway [00:40:23]:
Yeah, for sure. I, I agree with everything you said. We're going to put on our Rhodes colored glasses one more time, Jeremy. So I know that you're very dialed in with, with kind of, you know, Washington, D.C. which is why it's so cool to have you on here, you know, with some of the staffers you talk to. You know, Democrats are getting their asses kicked all across the country right now. Let's, you know, generally speaking, things are cyclical. You know, we'll see.
Greg Dunaway [00:40:47]:
Let's assume that the midterms go their way. Let's assume that maybe there's a Democratic president. Do you get the sense that this is an issue that Democrats actually want to Pursue.
Jeremy Berke [00:41:00]:
Yes. And look like, like, again, I'm very willing to share my bias. Like, I am not a Republican and never have been.
Jeremey Berke [00:41:07]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:41:09]:
You know, if you want to bring up a counterfactual, had Harris won the presidency, you know, I don't know what the House would have looked like. I don't know how that would have, you know, affected the down ballot races on political science terms. Like, again, I'm just theorizing. Look, if Harris won the presidency and the Democrats won the House, we'd be in a world where they are trying to pass, whether it's rescheduling or potentially full legalization that that would have occurred. I mean, Harris, she introduced the more act, which, which would have legalized cannabis, removed it from the controlled substances, and directed states to legalize in 2020.
Jeremey Berke [00:41:52]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:41:52]:
Like, she supported this legislation, obviously, as a, as a junior senator. The political calculus is different than when you're the president. But they would have moved on this issue well ahead of Trump and the Republicans. Now, would they have gotten it passed in the House? Like, that certainly depends on the House.
Jeremey Berke [00:42:09]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:42:09]:
The makeup, the composition, whether Republicans are willing to play ball. But there are enough Republicans who do support cannabis legislation that I believe they would find a lot of sympathetic ears for a wildly popular issue. And so look like, I think the industry would be in a different place, in a different world had Harris won again. She did it. And so, you know, we have to deal with the hand we're dealt with in terms of the midterms. I don't know. I mean, the Senate calculus seems just too tricky for Democrats right now, you know, and so if they don't win the Senate, you know, I don't know if I think any sort of legislation that even if the House turns blue, I think it's going to die in the Senate unless it's very, very targeted. Like, I think there are, you know, there's compelling reasons for Republicans to vote for increased access for veterans, let's say, potentially something like the Safer Banking Act.
Jeremy Berke [00:43:02]:
Although, I think, you know, by my count, it's. It's past the House like seven or eight times, I think. And so, like, at a certain point, it's like, this is. This legislation may not go any further. So look like, I don't know. I think, yeah, of course, the Democrats winning the House does make things more favorable for cannabis regulation. However, you know, at the end of the day, this is up to Donald Trump.
Jeremey Berke [00:43:28]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:43:29]:
And it's a little bit scary to have your business and your livelihood be in the hands of Donald Trump, which I'm sure you could relate to in many ways.
Jeremey Berke [00:43:41]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:43:41]:
And we all could. But look, again, I'm willing to say it may be a really good thing that it's in the hands of Donald Trump. He may move on this or nothing could happen or things like the glass house raids could happen.
Greg Dunaway [00:43:53]:
Yeah. It's a potpourri of absolute. No one knows what the fuck is going to happen with that command. So I think it's a great word, potpourri. Yeah, perfect. It's a fool's errand to try and divine anything. Jeremy, what are you excited about covering going forward, looking at the future? I know reporters don't generally like to talk about what they're pursuing, but just in general, what are you excited about covering over the next two to three months?
Jeremy Berke [00:44:18]:
Yeah, no, man, I think, here's one thing I'll say, I think we talked a lot about the doom and gloom, right? And that's certainly my perspective, my reported perspective about the near term future of cannabis, the long term future, I think absolutely stands.
Jeremey Berke [00:44:34]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:44:34]:
This is a product that people have consumed and loved for centuries, if not millennia. When you go back, the Scythians were burning it in their tents. This is something that people love, they will continue to love. And I think the energy at the grassroots level is very, very strong.
Jeremey Berke [00:44:52]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:44:52]:
I mean, again, like, there's a lot of doom and gloom headlines about the public markets. I mean, although it's been been a pretty good run this year for cannabis, I will say that, but a lot of doom and gloom about the public markets, a lot of doom and gloom about the prospects for federal reform. There is, you know, increased opposition in many states, as you are well aware of with the billboards in Arizona. So however, at the grassroots level, like walk into any dispensary in Brooklyn where I live, and it's packed with people who just love buying weed. Right? Like, people are stoked, they're super excited about it and that's not going anywhere. And I think the consumer level, the new product innovation, like, is just incredible to see. I mean, I was at Revel. Revelry, excuse me, which is a, you know, a B2B conference.
Jeremy Berke [00:45:38]:
I was at the B2B version of the conference last week and you know, there's 550 buyers in the room in New York, right? It was. There's an unprecedented amount of business going on now. Will all these brands survive? I don't know. I mean, there's going to be a shakeout, right. But the energy at the Consumer level, at the grassroots level is fascinating. And it really belies, I think, this doom and gloom story that we tell about the public markets, about federal regulation.
Jeremey Berke [00:46:02]:
Right.
Jeremy Berke [00:46:02]:
Like, people love buying weed, they love growing weed. All these new form factors are coming up, whether it's beverages, vapes, like, whatever it may be. I mean, there's a lot of novel innovation in it. I think, you know, we are quickly moving to a time when, you know, you could get a cannabis beverage at a Knicks game. And, like, how incredible is that, you know? So, yeah, I'm absolutely excited about that, and I'm absolutely excited to see where brands go. The new markets they attract, the new products they develop.
Jeremey Berke [00:46:28]:
All the above.
Jeremy Berke [00:46:29]:
The shopping, retail experiences. Like, that stuff, to me is fun and exciting and, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, I. I love the plant. I love consuming the product. Like, going to a grow is equally as exciting now as it was in 2016.
Jeremey Berke [00:46:44]:
Right?
Jeremy Berke [00:46:45]:
Like that. That does not get old, and I love it. And so that's not going to change.
Greg Dunaway [00:46:49]:
Awesome. Well, Jeremy, we appreciate having you on again, folks. If you're not following, Jeremy, you should be. We'll have links in our podcast. But, Jeremy, thank you again, man. So appreciate your time today.
Jeremy Berke [00:47:02]:
Of course. Thanks so much, Greg. This is a blast. Do it again, for sure.
Greg Dunaway [00:47:07]:
All right, Chris, how'd we do? Yeah, as always. Right? Except for me. Except for me. It was my fault. I ruined the podcast. But Jeremy didn't. Jeremy did not ruin the podcast. Jeremy made the podcast.
Jeremy Berke [00:47:24]:
No, that was fun. I hope it wasn't too. I was trying to, like, I hope it wasn't too doom and gloom. I mean, I. I like, those are.
Greg Dunaway [00:47:30]:
My real opinions, but reality on reality's terms, dude. Yeah.