Progressively Horrified

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

What is Progressively Horrified?

A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.

Ben the Kahn: How you doing, Emily?

Oh,

Emily: What?

Ben the Kahn: how you doing?

Emily: Oh, how am I doing?

I'm good.

I, I was, I basically slept all day.

Yeah.

Like I, I had a big thing.

We should do the episode and you'll,

Ben the Kahn: Yes, episode.

Emily: story.

Jeremy: Yeah.

All right.

Good evening and welcome to Progressively
Horrified, the podcast where we old ho to

progressive standards it never agreed to.

Tonight, we're starting a month of
talking about one of our podcast's

favorite directors, the inimitable
Guillermo del Toro, and we're kicking

it off with his feature debut Kronos.

I am your host Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight I have a

panel of chil and Sena bytes.

First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.

My co-host Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you?

Ben the Kahn: do you realize
that this entire movie, like this

central core premise, Of the film
is a motherfucking jojo reference.

Emily: Is it really?

Ben the Kahn: have any of y'all
to guess Not yet introduced?

Had any of y'all ever encountered a story
about a meso American artifact with sharp

stingy prong legs that sticks into people
and then turns them into a vampire?

His I had in Jojo's Bazaar Adventure

Emily: I mean, it wasn't,
it was sort of bedevil man.

They got the mask in, like
Brazil or something,

Erica: I will also say the main
character's name is so completely

unsettle that it may as well be a jojo

Ben the Kahn: That's big Iraqi style.

Emily: you know that Jesus
Christ was also a, a Joe Star?

Who's the

Ben the Kahn: That's true.

That's cannon.

Emily: That's fucking cannon.

Ben the Kahn: Oh man.

And I did, I did the math.

it would be hard, but if anyone
would've had access to Jojo's Bazaar

Adventure in Mexico in 19 nine,
in the mid nineties, from what I

understand, it would've been Del Toro.

Erica: that nerd.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Okay, before we do a
full hour on this, let me get

through these introductions.

uh, The cinnamon roll of Cino
Bites are co-host Emily Martin.

How are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: I'm good.

I really love the part of this movie
where he went, it's Corona's time.

It started kno saying all over those guys.

Jeremy: That was great.

We'll, we'll

Emily: that

Jeremy: talk about that part.

Make sure we don't skip over it later.

And our guest's.

First comic writer and host of the
podcast, Doman, Dawn, Luke Hara.

Luke, welcome to the show.

Luke: Thank you for having me on

Jeremy: to have you.

We look forward to talking about
this uh, vampire Grandpa with you,

and our returning guest podcast
here, co-author and artist of

danger and other unknown risks.

Erica Henderson.

Erica, good to see you again.

Erica: Yeah I told you I wanted
to do Kronos and you already had

Luke, and I was like, I still.

Pronos

Ben the Kahn: Hell

Jeremy: we do have somebody for
that, but we can get you on there.

And you were like, oh, no, absolutely.

Kronos.

Ben the Kahn: No, never
having seen Kronos before.

I absolutely get it.

Fucking hell.

Yeah.

For Kronos, I have so many
things I need to talk about.

Erica: it's my favorite one.

I think like all of his Spanish movies
are my favorite of his movies, but I think

this is my favorite of his Spanish movies.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It is somehow the Spanish
movie with the least Spanish.

Erica: It's

Ben the Kahn: I mean, the intro exposition
dump in English definitely threw me

off at the beginning of the movie.

Emily: oh, yeah, I, have hbo and
I was gonna watch this on hbo,

and then I'm like, English, no.

And then I go over on uh, rented
it on Amazon Prime is the same.

I just gave them, gave Bezos four bucks.

Ben the Kahn: I feel robbed of the
joy of seeing Ron Perlman speak

Spanish in every Ron Perlman movie.

He should speak Spanish in every movie.

Emily: I have some good news for you.

He also speaks French.

Erica: So I have the uh, criterion of this
movie and one of the interviews basically

Del Toro wanting to make his first movie
was like, I gotta get Ron Pearlman.

I love Ron Pearlman and Pearlman.

And he like instantly hit it off.

And he loved the script and he was
like, apparently he practiced for

a long time, like getting a Spanish
accent uh, a Mexican Spanish accent.

Correct.

And he really worked on it.

And he like gave a whole monologue to
Del Toro when they met up again and

like, , apparently Del Toro sat there
nodded his head and was like, Mm-hmm.

at the end.

He was like, that's terrible.

you, you're speaking in
English in this movie.

Emily: and that's why
he is director material.

Ben the Kahn: I mean, it was such a joy
seeing his name pop up in the credits

and realizing that these guys have been
ride or die for each other since day one.

Erica: but also the fact that Ron
Pearlman got this job partly because

of city of Lost children, but also
partly because of fucking Ice Pirates.

Ice pirates,

Emily: Oh shit.

I didn't even remember that I
was to, I was like way distracted

by uh, Angelica Houston

Ben the Kahn: The thing with
Ron Perlman in this movie

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: he's fantastic.

He steals the movie

Emily: Oh yeah.

Ben the Kahn: like he's so good.

Jeremy: I, I know Emily didn't end
up watching it on H B O, but I don't

know if you watched through the
like few minute clip they have of

Guillermo do Toro introducing it at
the beginning where he's like, Yeah,

this is a movie I wanted to make.

And the Mexican government was like,
fuck no, we're not funding this movie.

And then I made it and they
were like, this is terrible.

It's never gonna win anything
or go to any film festivals.

And he was like, and I saved those
messages, , and then I took it to Cannes

and we won the audience award at Cairns.

And so I sent that, I sent
messages back to those guys.

I was like, fuck yeah, get him Guillermo.

Erica: Amazing.

Ben the Kahn: that is the
energy we should all aspire to.

Erica: Oh, it's so good.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's

Emily: Good

Ben the Kahn: God,

the thing, the decisions he made, like
some of his laughter when he does the

fake pretend football to tackle the
car off the cliff, or him just yelling,

Jeremy: to the three point stance
to knock the car off the cliff.

It's amazing.

let me do the, the quick recap here
and then we can talk through all

of our favorite points because it,
it is a movie with lots of works.

Emily: Yes, it sure is.

Ben the Kahn: I need to talk about every
fucking detail of the office when we

get to it, like this factory office.

Jeremy: So it is

written and directed by Guillermo Deltoro.

Uh, It starts as we
said, Ron per Pearlman.

Fred Rico, Lupe, who I haven't
seen in a bunch of stuff, but

he's got a bazillion credits.

Uh, He is sadly deceased, but he
lived a, a good long acting life.

He's also got CLA Brook and uh,
margarita Isabel both of whom have a,

a long list of, of credits in Mexico.

Alright, so the, what actually happens
in the movie, let's start with some lore.

We get a Lord dump at the beginning.

A long time ago, an Alchemist made
a device supposed to keep you from

getting old, called the Kronos device.

Nobody knew he had lived so long until
he was until a part of the building

collapsed, and he died because the
shard of something pierced his heart.

The device was never found.

Now we pick up with a grandfather,
Jesus and his granddaughter Aurora,

going through their daily lives,
running an antique shop and having

frigid interactions with their
grandmother slash wife Mercedes.

Yes, this is somebody's first film because
everybody's name is very on the nose.

So shady guys are coming to his antique
shop looking at statues of angels,

and he is very suspicious, I guess
nobody comes into his antique shop.

We learned that the shady guys are buyers
reporting to Ron Pearlman's Angel uh, a

gruff tough guy who runs a factory for
his uncle, who is disabled and lives in

a clean room hidden under the factory.

Also, his uncle is more
than a little evil.

So roaches start crawling outta
the broken eye of one of these

angels which is the scariest thing
that'll happen in this movie.

And Grandpa Jesus s there is uh, hollow in
the base of the angel and opens it up to

find a strange golden mechanical device.

He takes it out and keeps it.

Angel shows up to buy the statue
and Grandpa doesn't mention that he

took a device out at the bottom of
the angel that this guy is obviously

looking for when he buys it.

Grandpa decided to play with the device
and finds out how to start it winding up.

It does a whole lot of hellrazor stuff
and then sinks it, stinging claws into him

and makes him bleed all over the place.

Uh, He goes and interrupts his wife's,
teaching dance class so that she can

bandage up his hand uh, where she
finds a metal stinger that he is left

in, that was left inside by the thing.

He still doesn't tell her
what happened that night.

He's insatiably thirsty and his
hand is itchy and he wants to

eat raw meat, but he doesn't.

Uh, So eventually he decides the solution
to this is to get the device, wind it

up again and let it finish its whole
cycle at which point a stinging tail

comes out of it and sinks into him.

Aurora sees this because she is up
reading with her rave glow sticks.

And despite grandpa saying it's okay, she
obviously knows this shit's fucked up.

the next morning in the mirror he
discovers that he looks younger and

decides to shave his mustache but
his shop isn't looking quite as good.

His shop has been broken into.

In the middle of the night they've
wrecked everything but put the broken lock

back on the door, presumably just to be
assholes and rub it in on their way out.

Emily: They left their card.

Jeremy: yeah, they left the card and they
put the lock back on the door, broken

. So Grandpa decides the way to go about
this is to go see them and he goes and

sees evil uncle who knows all about the
Kronos device and is pretty sure that

it works because there's a bug in there.

. Um, And the device is a processing
system for this bug juice.

Uh, Bugs apparently can live
as long as they want, as long

as you lock 'em in something.

Emily: That's science.

Jeremy: That's definite science.

Evil Uncle Chastises Jesus for using
the device and demands he hand it over.

It seems as if he does.

But the box that he hands, the
uncle actually just has the broken

locks from his shop inside, which
is a smooth burn for this dude.

Emily: Oh yeah.

Jeremy: Aurora knows what's up
and tries to hide the device from

Jesus, but he talks her into handing
it over and continues to use it.

Uh, The family decides to go to a
cool New Year's party together where

Jesus and Mercedes are all flirty and
kind of uncomfortable at the table.

This is until Jesus sees a man
bleeding profusely and decides

he's got to get some of that blood.

He is busy licking blood off the bathroom
floor, which again, this actually might

be the scariest thing in the movie

Emily: I was gonna say,

Jeremy: Angel walks in
and kicks him unconscious.

Ben the Kahn: Things so much scary as.

Deeply Unhygienic.

Emily: pretty scary these

Jeremy: yeah, he

is passionately licking
this bathroom floor.

He is very slowly and carefully
making love to this tile.

Luke: If I were going to lick off a
bathroom floor, it looks very clean.

I mean, that's white.

That's like marble.

You have worse

Emily: a nice bathroom.

Ben the Kahn: go all out
for the New Year party.

Emily: yeah,

Jeremy: yeah, they really cleaned at this
bathroom up before the New Year's party.

Emily: I am more worried about the guy
that was like brushing the blood off

the sink and then didn't wash his hands.

Erica: He was brushing
blood off with his hands.

This guy was cleaning
blood up with his hands.

Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Erica: and, and then got racist about

Jeremy: Yeah.

A person who we did not see.

Ben the Kahn: Yes.

Oh my God.

That's right.

There was just that casual
racism thrown in there.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, neither of these are
the weirdest guys we'll meet in this

movie because we are coming up on that.

Jesus awakes having been driven out
to the middle of nowhere by an hell.

When he refuses to give him the device,
Anil beats him accidentally to death

and then quickly sticks him back in
the car and pushes the car off the

cliff which he does by putting himself
in a three point stance and charging

it as if he were blocking the car.

In a game of American football Jesus goes
off the cliff and, you know, crashes in

the car after falling off this cliff.

He's real dead now.

This is where we.

The real star of the
show, Tito the Mortician.

He's a very special character
who takes great care in his art.

He, so Jesus, he sees his mouth shut
and makes him a replacement forehead.

That is fine art but is eventually
distracted just before burning the

body, which is enough for Jesus to jump
out of the coffin and run out into the

completely uninhabited night in Mexico.

Apparently there is nobody
on the streets anywhere

Emily: Well, it's the nineties and
like new line cinema was a thing,

so we got cans full of junk and
plastic sheeting and a lot of wind.

So yeah, we're It's

Jeremy: It's not as steamy in Mexico
as it is in the uninhabited streets

of, of American cities in the nineties.

There's, there's fewer skateboarders too.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: So, he tries to call . He tries
to call Mercedes, who is not having this.

And once he utters her, her
name Restfully, she just hangs

up the phone, which Alicia was
like, yeah, I would do that too.

like, just

Erica: Yeah, I mean, it, it's fully
understandable that like you hear

some weird voice that sounds kind
of like your recently dead husband.

You're just like, no,

Jeremy: Nope,

too much.

Aurora also hears it cuz she is
listening on the phone and as

usual, Aurora knows what's up.

She welcomes him back and hides
him in the attic where we find out

that he's now allergic to sunlight,
likes blood, allergic to sunlight.

We're starting to get some like
things falling together here.

He decides he's gonna settle business
and goes to see the evil uncle.

Of course, Aurora sneaks out and
follows him ruining his apparent

plan to go down in a blaze of glory.

The uncle is mad at him for not
embracing his new vampire lifestyle and

drinking blood starts ripping chunks
of rotting flesh off of him revealing

his new white, gooey flesh underneath.

He Jesus then gets taken down by the evil
uncle who must be much more powerful than

he looks cuz he also beats the living shit
at Iran Pearlman earlier in this movie.

Emily: Those canes really
nothing to mess with.

You know he is got two steel canes.

Erica: And also like Ron Pearlman.

It's not like he's fighting the uncle.

He's just taking a beating in the hopes
that one day he'll get to own a factory

Ben the Kahn: there

Luke: a new nose.

Ben the Kahn: lifetime of abuse going on.

You know, like one of those like
elephant post situations where like the

abuse started when he was too small to
fight back and now he can't mentally

handle being able to fight back.

Also, I think the parts of him that they
removed and put in those jars were just

the parts of him that had just had like
compassion and softness and now it's

just like mean, wiry old man muscle left.

Just all, all the ass kicking
parts of him are still there.

Jeremy: Yeah.

So, um, the only person capable of taking
him down is Aurora, who clocks him across

the head and knocks him unconscious,
despite weighing about 25 pounds.

Erica: I mean, I think this just
proves that these like canes

are fucking impressive theory.

Ben the Kahn: Aura manages to be
like one of the wildest characters

in this movie without saying a word.

Jeremy: yeah,

Emily: she says grandfather,

Jeremy: she, she gets bonuses on
bludgeoning damage, that's for sure.

At this point, Jesus has a, a chance
to make a clean getaway as the uncle is

unconscious, but he sees the evil uncle's
blood on the ground and just can't resist

leaving Aurora in danger so that he can
lap up some more blood off the ground.

At this point, angel arrives
in time to find his uncle dead.

No, wait, he's not dead.

He's still alive.

Okay, angel, fix that.

Now he is dead, poor, dead uncle.

But he still needs to kill
Jesus and Aurora, I guess.

He chases them to the

Erica: my my theory about this scene
is that angel would have let them go

had they not hit him in his new nose.

Emily: Yes.

Jeremy: It's

possible.

Um,

Ben the Kahn: Yeah,

I I have thoughts about that.

That's, That's, we're gonna need

to circle back to that

Emily: Yeah.

I would like to talk about

Jeremy: Yeah.

he,

Ben the Kahn: Yeah, that's uh, I've, Hm.

Jeremy: so he, he

chases them to the rooftop.

Where they have a standoff
that Batman would be proud of.

Aurora continues to just stay in danger.

Angels really starting
to beat Jesus's ass.

So Jesus decides that
he's gonna take a diver.

He's gonna take a header off the
thing, Spears on hell off the

rooftop like he's Ricky Starks.

They both fall to their death, but Aurora
comes and puts the Kronos device on

Jesus cuz she's learned how to revive her
Grandpa At this point when Jesus revives,

he sees that Aurora is bleeding and
barely stops himself from feeding on it.

And that's just too much for him.

So he decides he's gonna smash the Kronos
device so then you can finally die.

And I guess the miracle
bug too also needs to die.

So he uh, he decides to go die
in his bed surrounded by his

loving wife and granddaughter.

I don't know how long it takes him
to explain all of this to the wife

before she's okay with him dying there.

But that's the end

Emily: She seems

to be

Ben the Kahn: I, I, would've
loved to have seen Mercedes have

to put up with like, good news.

Your husband's alive again, bad news.

He's also dying.

Jeremy: time

you

Ben the Kahn: Mercedes seems
like a person who'd be like,

I, how long is this gonna take?

Emily: Some detective in this
town is like, I really wanna

get to the bottom of this.

Like there's a whole nother story
that, of a unseen detective that's

trying to like, investigate all of
this shit, and they're like, okay.

So he was cremated on Wednesday and
then he killed this guy and then

he killed that guy and then he died

again.

But he was also cremated by the sun.

That sounds fake, but you know,
it's an exile scene play that.

Ben the Kahn: It's a real case.

CLO case.

Weird case closed.

Jeremy, question for you.

You think you interpreted it as
Aurora was incidentally bleeding

and Jesus had to stop himself.

I interpreted it as Aurora was
so down for Vampire Grandpa.

And she knows the rules that she was
actively offering her blood to him

Jeremy: I was a little unsure.

I feel like, I feel like she
definitely does offer her blood to him.

I feel like it's unclear whether she cuts
herself or she is incidentally cut, but

that might just be me missing something.

Ben the Kahn: not fuck around 99
movies out of a hundred little girl

in shop cockroaches start crawling
out of like, out of the statue.

That little girl is screaming.

So the main protagonist can
be like, ah, what the fuck?

This movie cockroaches start
coming outta the statue.

A grabs the hammer
fucking starts smashing.

Just learn whack-a-mole with that

Emily: she is

Ben the Kahn: again, bludgeoning old
dudes saving grandpa just immediately

being like, oh, Ilia device.

Yep, that goes right on.

Grandpa, we're doing like
she's down for Vampire Grandpa.

Aurora is so fucking hardcore,

Emily: when she makes him the bed
out of her, like the coffin out

of her toy box and puts him to bed
with her doll and her teddy bear.

Erica: Yep.

Ben the Kahn: incredible.

Luke: Littlest Renfield.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: Orora could have been
just like a plot device of innocence,

and instead she just gets to be like
this wooly, hardcore little girl who was

just like silently down for any level
of violence or supernatural fucker.

Right?

Emily: And she's quiet.

Erica: Well, yeah, cause I think,
I think she is less about innocence

and more about like love where you
know you are willing to do something

about it if you really love someone.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Del Toro has said that like the
relationship between the granddaughter

and the grandfather is based on his actual
relationship with his grandmother and how

like you'll do anything for these people
you love, even when you like have all

this evidence that they're evil or bad.

And I was like, oh,
Guillermo, that's, that sounds

Ben the Kahn: What, what, what kinda shit
did Gabriel Del Toro's grandma get up to

Erica: I mean, I totally understand
the like, oh yeah, as a child you will

learn about crimes and when not to talk.

Emily: Yeah.

and also with the story about
throwing all of the cigarettes in the

Erica: Mm-hmm.

Ben the Kahn: when he introduced that
story with, I've experienced this before.

I'm like, you found another
immortality granting scare.

Emily: Uh, That's why he was
smart enough to pick it up with

a uh, cloth the first time.

But since it didn't immediately activate,
he was like, oh, I can touch this.

But then, you know, it just lulled him.

So it's not his fault really.

That thing lulled him into his
sense of security and tricked him.

Ben the Kahn: do.

Emily: It honestly,

Jeremy: So Erica, you had immediately said
uh, this was the one you wanted to watch.

You were down for this.

What is it that you
love so much about Kro?

Erica: I think compared to the rest
of his filmography, it's kind of the

most like purely distilled story.

Like there's no messing around
anywhere in the story, right?

Like everything, even the
really weird stuff like our

bizarre mortician is sort of in

Ben the Kahn: Oh

Erica: like there too,
like I know, but it's, it.

if they're in service of
like the weirdness of the

story and what it's doing.

It's also he loves certain themes
and I love looking at this and being

like, oh, okay, here we have child
who's down with the supernatural.

We've got the crazy bug that, I
mean, in Mimic, it's literally

called the Judas Breed.

Like, we're not getting that far off.

We got vampires, we got you know,
like, oh Man is the real monster,

which is like one of his favorites.

Ben the Kahn: we are the real

Erica: I, I love it as

a, like, springing off point
from like all of his other stuff.

Like you can see it's all in there.

All of it, even though
it's such a spar story.

Emily: all the cool old shit too, like
the antiques and everything and like

Ben the Kahn: The inside of the Kronos
device when he shoots the inside and it's

got the gears going, like, that's Beau.

That's gorgeous.

It's really interesting watching it,
especially for the first time watching

it and knowing, you know, that it's Del
Toro's first and everything that would

come after it because like it is such
a down and dirty indie horror film.

The kind we've seen so much of, and
yet, maybe it's because, you know,

I know to look for it, but I really
think you can tell like, oh damn,

there is like, there's the seeds
of real style and vision going on.

They're like, are you gonna fucking
blossom later on in this guy's career?

But like the seeds are there from the.

Erica: Yeah.

No, it's, it's all there.

I mean, I saw this movie really
early on, like I think it was.

It might have been like pre blade
two when I first saw it, so like

I'd probably seen mimic at that
point, but like that's about it.

and so like, yeah.

I still think it was really impressive
and different even without knowing like

everything about this guy at that point.

But it's also amazing looking back
on his career and being like, oh,

okay, you knew what you wanted to do.

It's all here.

You just got to like expand
on individual themes later.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Emily: I agree about
the conciseness of it.

You know, like, I feel like a lot
of his later movies, like once he

got to do more things, especially
with like Blade and Mimic, he was

getting into spectacle a little bit.

But this movie is very quiet.

And also, you know, it's very
well organized for like a

gritty indie horror movie.

Erica: Yeah.

Emily: Luke, What was your, what's
your impression of this film?

Like, what do you what
draws you to this one?

Luke: So this was the second time that
I had seen it all the way through,

but I had this like weird vague memory
of seeing bits of this movie on like

some cable channel growing up and then
like post-college, it was like, all

right, well I want to see some more
gear Rmo, do Toro films, and I rented

and it was just kind of that, oh, this
is what I just have weird memories of.

And so that was kind of what drew me back.

But it is one of those films where
you kind of appreciate the detritus.

Like, it is a very real world in a way
where, I appreciate that and just like

some of the use of colors and imagery,
and especially for how much of a budget

it has it's wonderful to look at.

Jeremy: one of the things it that
works is sort of the fact that they

didn't really have any kind of budget.

Because like, it feels
like the real world.

Cuz in a lot of cases it is.

Like, there was a, a thing in that,
that same interview where he was talking

about like those last couple shots,
they had to shoot at a, some of the

stuff at a different angle because
they were actively tearing down the

building that they were shooting the
factory stuff in as they were shooting.

So like, he's like in some of those
shots, the factory isn't there, so we

had to shoot it in a different direction.

Ben the Kahn: I mean, I think this is
probably, you know, person who has seen

one independent Mexican film saying
this other independent Mexican film has

first independent Mexican film vibes.

But I, I feel like you could
definitely see a little of that

kind of like, filmed by the seat of
your pants that you saw in Robert

Rodriguez's first El Mariachi movie.

Like, or just Like when we see Ron
Perlman walking through the factory

and like he's really just walking
through some wild sparks that are

shooting out and he's getting hit by.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Emily: Yeah.

Erica: I think part of it too is like
with him and Rodriguez, even though

they were doing these like super early
movies, like both of them have been

like doing other stuff for a bit.

They just didn't get to do,
you know, a full movie yet.

They got really good cinematographers.

So like, they got, like, Guillermo Navarro
has worked with Del Toro his entire

career, starting with Kronos and then for
everything else because he's just amazing.

You know, that's, that's just a guy who
knows how to like, make a room look good.

And I think, There's plenty of independent
films where they have rooms that are

just as real and they look like shit.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: Very true.

That is so.

Emily: There's kind of a B B C Jim
Henson quality to this movie to me.

It reminds me of there's a movie
that's about Alison Wonderland

and I cannot remember the name of
it right now, otherwise I'd be,

Erica: Jabber walkie.

Emily: no, this is something about
the title, some About a Girl.

I'll look it up and talk about it later.

But um, it's got these huge puppets
of the creatures from the book and

it has the same kind of vibe where
everything's very dark and you know,

it has that sort of soft lighting.

that a lot of these have.

And also Monster Maker, which
is another weird Jim Henson one.

Yeah.

And the music too also has that vibe, so
it's kind of feels wholesome in a big way.

for me,

Erica: mean, I think it kind
of is, it's about a little girl

like protecting her grandpa.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

It's the power of love.

Jeremy: I think, there's a lot to
be said for the Jim Henson influence

on Guillermo do Toro generally, but
like specifically in this movie,

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Ben the Kahn: Just that
level of artistry and craft.

But also let's make it all monsters.

Emily: Yeah.

And also have, have some heart to it.

It's not just like spooky scary monsters.

Like doing horrible things and yeah,
we have some like uncomfortable

closeups of horror stuff, like people
pulling glass outta themselves,

but the characters have heart and
we're not getting super problematic.

Ben the Kahn: also this movie Pro, when
it comes to the people pulling things

out of like themselves, like glass.

This movie probably wasn't
meant to be watched on modern HD

televisions where you can really
see just how rubbery some of that

Emily: Yeah,

Ben the Kahn: is.

Emily: which is

Ben the Kahn: I don't be, like not
a negative, like I never begrudged

these indie horror movies for, you
know, getting by on what they have.

Like, I'll criticize a fucking 150 million
movie, but fucking Teenage del Toro

just pulling out every trick he's got.

I'm like, fucking more power to ya.

Emily: wait, he was

Erica: No, he

wasn't a

Ben the Kahn: no.

I'm, I'm exaggerate, I'm exaggerating.

No, he's not a T He wasn't a teenager.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Erica: was

like running a makeup
studio at that point.

pop movie makeup.

Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erica: But I, I will say the opening
I think is like beautiful in that way.

That like, Pan's Labyrinth is where it's
like, it's very fairy tale where you're

like, you're looking at the dead vampire
and then panning through his like insane,

crazy old vampire man apartment up to the,
like, upside down body dripping blood.

It's it is like a gothic fairytale.

It's so amazing as a setup.

Ben the Kahn: Oh, yeah.

Also, Erica, I know you very quickly
specified that it was a movie makeup

studio, but for a brief, glorious
moment, I was imagining Guillermo

del Toro managing a Sephora.

Erica: I, I feel like I saw that
in your eyes and was like I need

to I need to let you know that
he wasn't just like, yeah, yeah.

Emily: I actually didn't know that
about Guillermo Deltoro, which makes the

show Los Spooky a lot more interesting.

Well, I mean, it's already a
great show, but I'm like, oh,

it's like Guillermo Deltoro.

Except I'm pretty sure he wasn't actually
sending people into other dimensions,

although I

Ben the Kahn: thing that is like, oh wow.

The love and appreciation and
knowledge of practical effects and

costuming and creature effects.

Like what?

Like Like it literally hands on.

Luke: Well, and like in the pre
documentary thing that they did,

they talked about how the first thing
that he did was he got to go on, have

the like crane shoot for the camera.

Like how excited he was for that.

And it's like you kind of
feel that love going into that

initial shot is it pans up and.

Jeremy: And he got the crane up the stairs
and he was like, all right, let's do it.

Ben the Kahn: so there's really,
I don't know how much political

analysis there has to be found here,
but I really want to talk about

Ron Perlman's bedroom in this movie

or bed locker pod

Emily: Doing his

Jeremy: go for

Emily: post.

Ben the Kahn: where all
the walls are mountains.

Erica: living in like a worse
version of like Bruce Willis's

fifth element apartment

Emily: Honestly, a
little bit more charming.

Ben the Kahn: Like I, I'm not
sure how long I would be able

to live in that in there before.

I also kind of wanted to kill the
relative who was keeping me there.

Emily: I do think there's some
things to be said in this movie.

There's a few subjects that,
are handled a little bit.

I mean, there's the, the abuse
between Ro Pearlman and his uncle and.

. I don't think that's really handled in a
super, like, in-depth and meaningful way.

I mean, yes, he is suffering from cancer,
I assume because he's like getting

all of his organs taken out and put in
jars, which like holy shit, I do that.

But if you can, I will.

Jeremy: Just keep all your stuff in.

Erica: you're rich enough, they let you.

Otherwise you're not
supposed to keep shit.

Ben the Kahn: yeah,

that's some real,

like

crazy rich people

Emily: They wouldn't keep my gallstones.

They wouldn't

let me keep my gallbladder.

Erica: you have to know a guy.

Just a quick aside, there is a amazing
documentary called Finder's Keepers about

a guy who goes to an auction of a, like
a storage unit, buys a smoker, opens

it up and finds a mummified human leg.

Ben the Kahn: Fuck

Erica: uh,

Jeremy: Believe that was here in

Erica: uh,

Emily: Oh

Erica: I think it was, and basically that
is a, a leg that spoilers for the movie.

The guy who lost it, he had a friend
at the hospital, let him keep his

own leg after it was amputated.

Ben the Kahn: That feels like the
opening scene of a season of Fargo.

Emily: or Hannibal.

I mean, if it's on the east.

Erica: True.

Ben the Kahn: oh.

And so in terms of things not handled
delicately like, it's not actively.

Hateful.

I look, I certainly am not
accusing Guillermo del Toro of

any ill intentions or bigotry.

I don't think it's great that an
actor as visibly Jewish as Ron

Pearlman's main character motivation
is wants and knows job and all

the focus on the character's nose.

I did.

I didn't as a Jewish person, I,
I, I'm not saying it was anything

major, but I didn't love it.

Emily: Especially because Ron
Pearlman's nose is not the feature

of his face that you're looking at.

You

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

It wasn't his nose that got him cast
in Beauty in the Beast back in the

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, they, he has a little baby
nose and which is really easy to

turn into like a cat face memers.

But like, yeah, that was the other thing
is that it just seems really to me and,

Ben the Kahn: it's not huge.

It doesn't break the movie Ron Perlman,
I don't know, he might have been totally

into the bit, he might have even suggested
the Bit for All I know, but without

that context it's not huge or movie
breaking, but it did make me go like,

Ooh, this makes me feel a little bad.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: don't don't love this.

Emily: Yeah.

I super thought it was random.

And also like the, the one that they
chose for him, the nose that they

chose, that he was asking them for was
like straight, and it was like long.

But anyway,

Luke: I kind of read it as like him and
his uncle sort of having this similar

thread of trying to control their lives
in different ways where he is like very

physically, like he's built himself up and
it's him trying to control every element.

Well, his uncle's kind of in this
almost essentially Egyptian tomb cuz

he does have his organs preserved
in jars, like the canopy jars and

like there's all the statues of the
angels that have been bought before,

kind of giving it that strange feel
deep within this winding labyrinth.

And uh,

that was kind of my thought.

Ben the Kahn: feel

Erica: Yeah.

I think part of it too

is like, yeah, uh, there's the
part where Pearlman really only

has his, like like he only has his
outside self to present to people.

Cause like whenever he is outside, he's
like holding himself up really high.

He's well dressed and then like we
get the reveal of him in his like

horrible little like locker he lives in.

And yeah.

I think part of that's more meant to be
like, like you said, control of the body

because that's the only thing you can.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: seriously, those
lockers, the mountain background,

it feels like something Adam
Scott would wake up in a severance

Jeremy: mm-hmm.

and he, he is very, like, playful
with the thing, which I, I think

makes it, made it not stand out as
much to me as, as being a thing.

Like in that scene where he's showing
them the different things, he's very

like, lighthearted and excited about it
rather than it being like, ah, my curse.

But like, yeah, they also like play it
where he, his nose gets broken multiple

times in the movie to where like, Maybe
this is why he needs a nose, because

he's had it busted so many times.

You know?

He just wants to get it

Emily: Oh, yeah, that's where I was
going with the uh, abuse line there.

But I think the bigger the bigger
point this movie makes is about

addiction, which is a common theme
with like movies about vampire.

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

Jesus gives that whole speech
about like, Hey, I hear you.

I see you no more immortality scare now.

Go that way.

Grandpa needs a hit of immortality.

Erica: Well, what I love about that
speech is that he actually doesn't

say he is gonna stop doing it.

He was like, well, when my, when my
son put my cigarettes in the toilet,

it didn't actually help anything.

But I heard him and I would
hope that you would hear me.

I hear you.

Okay, well, well, I'm glad we had this

conversation.

Yeah.

Jeremy: I get that you're
concerned about my addiction.

Fuck off little kid.

Emily: Well, I mean, at least he,
he did make the point of like, just

taking it away isn't gonna fix it.

You know, this isn't just, just
depriving me of it is isn't gonna fix it.

But I

Ben the Kahn: this isn't cigarettes.

Emily: to say,

Ben the Kahn: He can't go down to the
bodega and get another immortality

scare of, this is one instance
where taking it away might fix it.

Emily: but I, I felt like the way he told
that story was really cool and how he,

you know, made it applicable to a real
life thing and something that Aurora

might need to deal with in the future as

well, because it's

you know,

Ben the Kahn: human
touching, relatable bond.

Like their bond and their
relationship is very real.

Like you can see like, oh, this guy
is legitimately like a good grandpa

when he's not heartwarming weasel
wording his way out of continuing

his addiction to magical artifact.

Emily: well, he tries at least to be
discreet after he has that moment on the

stairs where he's talking to someone.

And since it's Christmas you know,
I thought he was talking to Jesus,

but he was talking to myself, so he.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Ben the Kahn: Talking to Jesus.

Also a jojo reference.

Emily: Yes.

Definitely like Judges Bazaar
Venture came out before this, so

I think we can all agree that he

Ben the Kahn: Yes, yes.

Phantom blood started in 86, so, you
know, you wouldn't have, he wouldn't

have gotten to the part where Jesus
tells the main character to kill

the President so he can walk again.

But, you know, I, I think that was what
was implied from the beginning, that's

where the series was naturally leading.

Luke: I have to keep reading
after what they've turned into the

mo, into the anime because Wow.

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

Steel ball run gets wild part.

Emily: I just have been explained to
me what happens because I only have so

much time in the day that I can use my
eyeballs for things that aren't work

So as much as I would love to enjoy.

The Jo's bizarre adventure.

But there is an element, I feel like
this is a very, very valid comparison

to be made between the kind of super
elaborate, weird nonsense that you

get out of Jo Joe's bizarre adventure
and a lot of manga, you know, which

I know that Gael Deltoro was into.

Like I know that he's a huge
weave and I know that he

understands me at a personal level.

But the other thing I was curious
about with the influence is that I

think Sean, the city has lost children,
was not out yet at that point.

Erica: wait, maybe I got it mixed up.

Maybe.

Children job came from Kronos.

I, I know that he got
one job off of the other.

I probably, I think I
just got it mixed up.

Emily: Yeah.

Cuz I think uh, delicate
te came out before that.

Erica: so that means this
was solely Ice Pirates

Emily: That movie has some charm.

Erica: It sure.

Has Bruce Lan playing a robot?

Jeremy: That's enough to
sell me on anything really.

Ben the Kahn: Look, it's got

an Angelica Houston.

Emily: the, he the pimp robot?

Erica: He, he's like some sort
of rich guy whose head gets

cut off and put onto a robot.

Emily: So much happened to that movie.

Erica: think too much about ice pirates,

Emily: I disagree.

Ben the Kahn: Unfortunately,
this is the most

Emily: think about.

Ben the Kahn: about ice
pirates in my entire life.

Emily: Oh, you gotta see that movie.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean really at this point it would've
been Ice Pirates, maybe Quest for Fire and

I don't know, maybe Beauty and the Beast,
but that's like like he would've already

been, I don't know, casting at the point
that Beauty and the Beast was coming out.

Well, I guess Beauty and
Beast started in 87, so

Erica: okay.

Jeremy: it

might've been part of it

Emily: this movie also feels a
little, a bit like that show, like

there's a bit of a, that like, um,

Jeremy: afternoon on cw.

Kind of feel

Emily: well, urban Fantasy.

Jeremy: would've been U P N
at that point, but you know.

Ben the Kahn: I'm looking at Ron
Pearlman's Wikipedia, and, you

know, an actor had a good career
when their filmography has to

have a separate Wikipedia article.

Erica: Yes.

Emily: Yeah.

It's correct.

Jeremy: He is a man with quite a
few entries in his filmography.

That is for

Ben the Kahn: So, yeah, it was
Quest for Fire, ice, pirates,

name of the Rose and Sleepwalkers.

None of those movies are anything

Emily: Pirates is

Jeremy: I mean, ice Paris is a lot.

Emily: Yeah.

Erica: but it's not weird to me
that Del Toro would be super into

like these weird little movies,

Ben the Kahn: That's true.

It also makes sense why Deltoro was
also like, I can probably get this guy,

Emily: yeah.

Ben the Kahn: So many movies and
actors wear a role like Angel

would've been so forgettable, and
yet Ron Pearlman, whenever he is on

screen, like you can't look away.

Like there really is, that it factor,
for lack of a better word, that he's got.

Erica: I think partly what works for
it as well is like the fact that he's

bad at Spanish and so he's speaking
in English and it feels disrespectful

because the character knows Spanish.

Like he can hear it and he can speak it,
but like 75% of the time he doesn't want.

Ben the Kahn: a power move that adds
to the character that's also just

necessitated by Ron Pearlman's language

skills.

Erica: Yep.

Ben the Kahn: A real, we can't
show this fucking shark situation

Emily: Is anyone getting young Harrison
Ford vibes from Ron Perlman in this movie?

Because I was,

Jeremy: I mean, maybe two harrison
fords stacked on their shoulders like.

Emily: yes.

I'm saying like, bitch evolved Harrison.

Ben the Kahn: when he's in the shop.

like, he's got that very effortless
gruff charm that harrison Ford has.

Erica: I agree with that, but I when
he's higher energy, that is more energy

than I've ever seen Harrison Ford

Ben the Kahn: Harrison Ford didn't have
that much energy in any of the times.

He was an actual plane crashes.

Emily: You think that's.

Erica: Maybe that's why he survived.

He just goes limp.

Emily: Yeah.

Oh, and he has one of those
bugs that like fixes his blood.

So that's why he survived.

Erica: Yeah, but I feel like,

Jesus got more energy though.

Like Harrison Ford just turns more and
more into like a golum, but he's just

Ben the Kahn: Jesus,

Erica: and stiffer.

Emily: well at

first,

Ben the Kahn: his mustache and
then goes fishing for compliments.

Emily: and bless him for

it.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Emily: Bless him for it.

I mean, I thought he

Ben the Kahn: I I do en I do
enjoy the portion of the movie.

That's how Jesus got his groove back.

Emily: Yes.

I feel like there's a very,
very subtle subtext that.

Say this is like, she's teaching this dude
this like very mousey looking guy tango.

And then when Jesus shows
up, he's like, oh shit.

Like, you know, maybe Jesus was
jealous that she was like doing tango

with these other dudes or something.

And then when he got his groove back,
he's like, now we're going to tango at

the party with a clock mime and just
kiss each other on the nose a lot.

Erica: I do, yeah, I do like that
difference between them in the beginning

where she's like, she's teaching dance
classes and moving around and he sort

of sits in a room full of old dead
things all day, and then we cut later

to the scene where he's in the bathroom.

with this thing that's keeping
him alive and making him younger.

And she's like, I wore
this dress last year.

How did I change this much in a year?

How did my body like go
so downhill in one year?

And I love that moment in the shift.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Luke: I, I, I did like that they
didn't make Jesus feel like he was

really frail though, cuz we like see
him playing hopscotch in his store.

Which power moved?

Jeremy: he starts off with
a real JAO energy, like he's

just like, you know, kindly old

Ben the Kahn: what it is.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Erica: Nailed

Ben the Kahn: did not understand
at first that Mercedes was his

wife, so I'm just like, damn, dude.

Why are you just showing
up at this random dance?

Teachers have some like a bloody
hand, like sweater vest first

before you just show up at people's
houses and you getting blood on her.

Emily: Yeah, I was so distracted
by the mustache earlier

that and how gito he looked.

I didn't even pay attention to the wife.

And then I was like, oh yeah,
that's the wife, isn't it?

Doing the tango?

Jeremy: It's interesting because
they don't outline it right away.

They don't say who she is,
and they do make it clear that

Aurora is his granddaughter.

So that you're like, well,
is that his daughter is

is is his, you know, daughter-in-law?

Oh, you know, I guess
both the parents are dead.

Both of Aurora's parents
died somewhere somehow.

I don't think we ever get
clarification on that.

Ben the Kahn: Presumably in a supernatural
monster, nightmare, Ghibli adventure that

left her mute except for the word grandpa,

Emily: I think she's
just a girl of few words.

You know?

Ben the Kahn: I, She's or is
the strong and silent type,

Emily: absolutely.

Ben the Kahn: or you know,
uh, speak softly and softly.

Carry a big cane.

Luke: She's like snake eyes.

You get one word

Ben the Kahn: I do.

Erica: in that terrible movie,

Ben the Kahn: Oh my God.

Luke: I finally saw that
and was disappointed.

Ben the Kahn: Henry Golding.

Jeremy: I still haven't seen it,
but I don't know why you would ever

cast Henry Gold as somebody who
has to wear a mask all the time.

Luke: he doesn't.

Ben the Kahn: Koji in Warrior and
I was so excited for him to be

like the main villain in this.

And now I guess I just have
to wait for war next season of

Warrior and hope it doesn't get
canceled to before it comes out.

Luke: It's kind of the Stallone
Judge, dread movie of GI Joe.

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

So I don't, I don't have a segue
to this, but I really wanna talk

about this blue collar corner.

Erica: yes.

Emily: Tito,

Jeremy: I love, I love, that his
name is Tito, because everybody

else's angel, Jesus, Aurora Mercedes,
which, you know, again means mercy.

Like they're all very biblical names.

And then you have the fifth Apostle Tito.

Erica: My theory is that Tito is just
like, he's like one of the guys he works

with doing monster makeup because it
feels like that sort of thing he's doing.

Like he's just an artist working
with a client and then is like bad

when the client changes the game.

Like that's, it's just
a , just a personal like

Jeremy: I think

this.

whole scene is improvd.

Like I, I have no evidence of that,
but it's, it's in a very different

tone than the rest of the movie

Ben the Kahn: The cremation joke

is fantastic.

Emily: He's everything.

He's got makeup and he
cremation fire dancing

Ben the Kahn: He's wearing just like a

Emily: his.

Ben the Kahn: greasy tank top, like
he's a mechanic for dead bodies.

He has wolverine, sideburns, pictures
of lucha doors on his wall, a banana.

He just pulls out of his
pocket for like his cremation

snack, I Tito was everything.

Luke: He is the better Gallagher,

Ben the Kahn: He shows up at the wake
and he has, Tito is holding and eating

at an entire tray of rules at the wake.

Nobody else has or dms, but Tito has
a whole fucking snack tray to himself.

Also.

Are there normally or dms at a wake
because I feel like there should be,

Luke: depending.

Mm-hmm.

Erica: I

think

Ben the Kahn: When

Emily: I

Erica: probably.

Ben the Kahn: I want
hors derbs at my wake.

Whatever.

Oh, wait, no, we said Shiva.

We do ship tones of food.

No, we're good.

My people can know how to

Erica: you're gonna

Ben the Kahn: people know
how to eat our grief.

Jeremy: That's, that's like,

That's like Irish wakes.

It's just, you know, it's a pot.

Erica: Yeah.

I think Mexico's not too dissimilar.

And with, with China, we, like, every
year you go to the cemetery, you like,

you pour a little bit out onto the
grave, and that's like, all right.

Ancestors, we brought this food for you.

We're just gonna eat it for
you, if you're okay with that.

I'm just gonna this is for you.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: Oh yeah.

Like Tito

Emily: not one.

Ben the Kahn: again,
like the care and craft.

And yet you're right.

It does feel like an improv comedy
duo, like Blue Collar Tito and the

other guy's all suited up and proper.

Jeremy: And he is like so excited
about watching Tito do his work

and he is so impressed with him.

And then he is like, you know,
we are gonna cremate this guy.

Right?

Just just so you know, like,

Ben the Kahn: That was so funny.

Like in an old school, like
almost silent movie way.

Kind of funny.

Emily: Yeah, he felt like he was being
really patronizing too because Tito,

he's, this is the best work you've
ever done on this guy's forehead.

And Tito just barely
put that putty on there.

Like he, he wasn't even started
and I'm like, obviously this

priest does not understand art,
but he wants Tito to like him.

yeah, the

Luke: Hi, ship it.

Ben the Kahn: folks.

We found it.

Luke: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: We, we found
the queer ship in Kronos.

Emily: beautiful.

And the muscle guys, the um, uncle
LaGuardia's like weird muscle guy lamp.

That was something.

Luke: Tito apparently
was in another movie.

Jeremy: As ti.

Erica: looking it up right now.

Emily: Yes.

Luke: Yeah.

If you go to the Wikipedia
page, there's apparently another

independent film made where Tito
Reprises his role as the Funerary.

Erica: Oh, you mean Tito, the character.

Luke: Yes,

Emily: but played by the same

Erica: Oh my

Luke: yes.

It's part of the Tito Connected

Universe

Ben the Kahn: Giermo verse.

Or the tito verse.

Luke: Apparent.

Ben the Kahn: I need Tito
to appear in Hellboy.

Now

Emily: Right?

I want Tito.

Well, it's funny because
that also happened in um,

Ben the Kahn: Jay.

in

Emily: the Prophecy.

Ben the Kahn: scr in scream three.

Emily: Yes.

And this is one of these things
that I love about these, some

of these like genre films.

There is a quality when a film has
characters that are all memorable.

And there's movies that are like dumb as
fuck, but every character is memorable.

Tito is like a, a
microcosmic version of that.

As well as the uh, the mortician in
the prophecy, although I prefer Tito,

the mortician in the prophecy had a
little bit more of a psycho killer vibe.

But now I have to look up the Tito verse.

What fam are we looking up?

The Tito verse, right?

Erica: I mean, Luke, Luke, you,
you pointed out what's the movie?

I'm sure you have the information.

Ben the Kahn: And I hope Tito
shows up in Shape of Water

Jeremy: Okay, so the movie is
We Are And What We Are, which

is a horror movie in 2010.

And both Juan Carlos Colombo, who
plays the funeral director and Daniel

Jimenez who plays Tito appear as the
same characters as they were in Kronos.

Erica: Okay.

It's been a while since I've
seen we are what we are, but that

is another Eaten people movie.

Luke: Yep.

Ben the Kahn: We are, we're just all about
eating people as a culture these days.

Erica: Well, that was 2010.

It was a little ways back.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Ben the Kahn: true.

Luke: not quite.

I zombie the TV show era
and Hannibal Arab clips.

Erica: Okay.

It's been so long since
I've seen this movie.

Like I didn't realize
Wyatt Russell was in it.

Ben the Kahn: What

Emily: really.

I really hope that these guys live
long enough that if like, I don't know.

I just hope that they're in more movies.

Like these characters
need to be in more movies.

Erica: I need them to meet up with
Tony Todd in a, like now their

file destination kind of situation.

They need all the weird morticians.

Jeremy: and the, the mortician
from Tales From the Hood.

Ben the Kahn: Hey, what was with the
backward suit that Jesus was wearing, why

was his suit backwards?

Jeremy: it's not a real suit.

it's just like, vests that you get
that are sometimes for, you know,

something where you're gonna be
wearing a jacket the whole time.

There's no back on it.

Since he's not getting up,
while he is lying in the.

in the coffin, they can wrap it
around him instead of having to

like sit the dead guy up and squeeze
it over his head and everything.

Erica: Yeah.

Then they can also just take it off
for later so they can use it again.

Have, did you have to take awkward
senior photos where like everyone

had to wear the same things.

They put like one of those on all the
guys as they came in and their t-shirts.

Jeremy: we, we, did
that with, with, robes.

Ben the Kahn: Uh, yes, and
it was a dead dude's vest.

had to share the same dead dude vest.

Emily: I mean, it could have been

Erica: Yeah.

Who knows?

Ben the Kahn: Oh man.

All I thought when Aurora came
in to save her grandpa was just

like, Aurora with a steel chair.

Emily: her heart.

Jeremy: I, I do wanna ask, considering,
I mean, talking about Aurora specifically

do we think Kronos is feminist?

Emily: I think it's not, not feminist.

I'm gonna solidly weigh
in on not, not, feminist.

Ben the Kahn: not anti-feminist.

Erica: Yeah.

I, I think It just is

Jeremy: yeah.

Erica: there's not enough.

Ben the Kahn: harmful.

Erica: Yeah, cuz like, I think it's just
a loving relationship within a family,

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: Mm-hmm.

.
It's not,

Jeremy: little girl as the
action hero in this story.

Ben the Kahn: yeah.

I don't, I don't

think,

I don't think it's really
trying to explore themes of any

particular gender or feminism.

I think, like you said, it's just
the loving family relationship

Erica: And she's not a you
know, full quote Kate, beaten

voice, strong female character,

Emily: Yes.

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

Or even just like, I do appreciate
that she's not just like an, like an

impossibly innocent, too good for this,
you know, wicked earth like character.

Like, you know, even with Nolan, she
still is a character with agency and real

personality and who gets to do some of
like my favorite things in this movie.

Luke: I feel like if you're going to
have a criticism, Mercedes kind of

feels like she could have been set up
to be like the cheating spouse, but they

never really develop it fully in that
direction, and it's more of just they've

had a relationship for a long time.

Things are complicated.

Emily: Yeah.

I feel like if anything, he just wants
to be on her level cuz she's teaching

dance and she's like super sensual.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Erica: Yeah.

I, I agree.

I like that we never sort of
fully gain the relationships.

It's not important, but that like
there's something going on and it's

not like the perfect relationship,
but they clearly care for each other.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Ben the Kahn: Yeah.

And again, I do appreciate any
kid who that quickly can go.

Team Vampire Grandpa, let's do.

Emily: Yes,

Ben the Kahn: be a
little vampire sidekick.

Gonna take my teddy bear and
glow stick and get you victims.

Grandpa, let's do this.

Jeremy: No follow up questions.

Ben the Kahn: she's, she's ready
to be a little like, you know,

like renfield hit girl type.

Emily: Well, I feel like this happens a
lot in Del Torah movies and a lot of the

like, and also in the JI movies that we
mentioned there's this This perspective

that is usually pretty refreshing, even
though, you know, I feel like it's pretty

common these days that kids aren't like
meek or dumb or any, you know, the kids

are super, super observant and also, they
don't question the reality of something

the same way that a an adult might, right?

Where like, if someone, you know, if
Mercedes discovered Vampire gr the vampire

Jesus, you know, she may have had a lot
of questions, but she just said knew

that grandpa was alive and he needed
the bug and he couldn't be in sunlight.

And she loved him no matter what.

His skin was falling
off and she loved him.

And I think that especially with the kind
of acceptance that occurs, with that, and

like also with Devil's Backbone and Pans
Labyrinth, which we'll be talking about

Ben the Kahn: I somehow have never
seen, and I'm so excited to finally see.

I don't, I, I don't know
how, I've never seen it.

Luke: In for a treat

Jeremy: have you never seen either
of them or just Pans Labyrinth

Ben the Kahn: what's the
other one you're seeing?

Jeremy: Backbone, the

Ben the Kahn: No, I have not seen that one

Jeremy: No.

Luke: that's genuinely spooky.

Emily: It's a genuinely
spooky and also tear jerking

Jeremy: Good.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: We'll find out next week.

Ben the Kahn: Find out
next week on Toro's.

Filmography.

Jeremy: Well, I guess we've
answered most of our questions here.

I guess that leads us to asking uh,
would, would we all recommend this as

something that's worth seeing for people?

Luke: Yeah.

Ben the Kahn: definitely.

Yeah.

I, I think in terms of trying to find
themes or a deeper message beyond

just, you know, the story of family
and loving family and self-sacrifice

for a family I would say is probably
the story of addiction and, you

know, a sympathetic look at it.

Addiction.

So.

I would say that's, if you're
looking for a deeper angle to

view this movie on, I think that's
probably the one to view it through

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I, I think that along with there
is this certain element of like, family

versus class in here because, you know,
you have this this family that is, I

mean, they're, they're middle class.

They run or own an antique shop and do
dance lessons, but like they all love each

other and they, they care for each other
and they're able to, you know, prevail and

take care of each other through all this.

Whereas, you know, you have this
richer family of this, of aunt Helen

and his, his uncle who hate each
other despite having all this stuff.

They are terrible to each
other and it doesn't work out

so well for them in the end.

Yeah, I, I, I fully recommend,
it's definitely worth checking out.

I think it's still like, despite
being quite a bit older still,

like, feels like a pretty fresh
take on vampire adjacent stuff.

They never say the, they never
say the V word in this movie.

But you don't really figure out
it's a vampire story until you're

maybe about half an hour from the
end and it's like, oh, it's, he

likes, he needs blood to keep going.

Oh.

Erica: You know what this is closest
to, to me, like sort of feel wise is

ravenous where the vam or I, I don't
know, cannibalism when egoism or whatever

you wanna call it is sort of emphasizing
the idea of power and needing to like,

take that from people in a way that I
feel like a lot of other vampire music

are more like, ah, it's a monster,

Ben the Kahn: I do feel like among
vampire protagonists, Jesus is

unique in that it's not often someone
becomes a vampire, literally just

by pure fucking accident, but like
he kind of got a splinter and that

Luke: Hmm.

Ben the Kahn: vampire.

Emily: yeah.

that's how you get tetanus.

Ben the Kahn: Like there was no
seduction, there was no falling

into temptation or fear, corruption.

There was just like, ow, a pointy thing.

Uh, Oh, I, need blood in.

I immortal.

Jeremy: Also, I think very interesting
in the, the sort of like taking the

older person and giving them the
opportunity to be younger in this story.

Whereas often we see vampires, a
lot of like young looking people

who turn out to be very old.

And you know, this is sort of
giving him a, a renewed lease on

life, which is what's exciting
and addictive about it to him.

As compared to like, oh,
you can live forever.

Like, he very clearly
doesn't wanna live forever.

I think he says as much towards the
end, he's like, look at this shit

that I'm dealing with right now.

Who wants to live like this?

Erica: Well, and I think that falls
into the addiction story too, where

like, he feels great in the first part
and then as he starts to realize what

he has to do, eat people, he's like
physically worse and he's just like,

oh no, but now I need it and want it.

It's not like I want it in a way
that, you know, I can't control.

Ben the Kahn: One of my
favorite moments in the film.

Again, just one of the great like
little acting performances that

makes him so damn good in this movie
is the way Ron Perlman just laughs

when he is told that his
uncle's plan is to live longer.

Emily: Yeah,

Erica: yes.

Ben the Kahn: Like,

Jeremy: would that

Erica: But what was the line?

Yeah, he, all he

Ben the Kahn: yeah.

Erica: shit all day and
he wants to live longer.

Ben the Kahn: Yes, that was the line.

Like, Like he's a uh, just a
killer performance and yeah.

So I guess I'm recommending uh,
anything with Ron Perlman, so I

guess the Teen Titans cartoon.

He's a good slade.

Erica: Yeah.

I, I guess you have to
see ice pirates now.

Emily: yeah.

There you.

Ben the Kahn: That fucking
have to see ice pirates.

Luke: I've never seen it.

Erica: i, I don't recommend it.

I don't actually recommend it.

like it, it's one of those movies
that's like interesting in and

as like an eighties artifact, but
you're also like, you'll feel your

brain melting out of your ears.

Emily: We watched Roula.

Yeah,

Erica: watched Roula.

Emily: them.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Erica: in the theater.

Ben the Kahn: Oh, wow.

Emily: Wow.

Ben the Kahn: We, we had a very
fun time on a Roula episode.

Emily: Yeah, we talk.

I'm so

happy.

Ben the Kahn: movie was a delight for all.

Emily: Yeah.

So Ben, I think you like ice pirates.

I'm not blanket recommending
ice pirates, But

I'm,

Ben the Kahn: you know what I'm

Emily: yeah, I know what you're about.

I think you, you would be at
least intrigued by all of this

stuff that goes on in ice pirates.

Erica: Yeah.

That

Ben the Kahn: Any movie
that makes me go, oh, okay.

Choices were made.

Like, I'm gonna have a good time.

Emily: Oh, absolutely.

Ben the Kahn: I need to watch Ice Pirates.

Erica: I, it's one of those things where
like, it's not something I'd recommend to

everyone,

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Erica: of thing you like,
then you need to see it.

Emily: Let me tell you though, it is a
weird movie to just randomly come across

and be like, well, this looks interesting.

It looks so innocent.

Jeremy: Yeah.

So you said you wouldn't
generally recommend ice Pirates.

Emily, what would you recommend to
people after watching this movie?

Emily: I mean, I've recommended
the cabinet of Curiosity series

that is produced by Del Toro.

There's a story in there when the last
episode is actually written by Del Toro.

And it is also very heartfelt.

But I was actually going to be,
my, my recommendation was gonna be

City of Lost Children, which is an
a French film very weird Jean Pier.

So, and I, since you've already met,
mentioned it, I'll also recommend

Delicatessen, speaking of having a
smoking, having a leg, and the smoker.

Yeah delicatessen is a, is another
Jean Pier, and it's really I really

recommend these movies a because
Ron Pearlman, you know, watch out.

There's some problematic stuff
in there because, you know,

they're weird and French.

But the, then you look at the same guy
directed Alien, resurrection and Omie.

So what a guy,

um,

Jeremy: Frenchman

Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But very, very similar to Del Toro
in terms of themes and imagery and

interests and things like that.

So,

Erica: resurrection, I would say
that you need to have a Frenchman.

If in the middle of an area alien film,
you are going to have some poetry just

read out by A, uh, a dying Brad dif

Emily: yes, you are a beautiful butterfly

Ben the Kahn: You had me at Brad Dorff,

Emily: Oh my God.

When uh, Jesus peeling his skin
off that clip played in my head,

always in my head is Brad like,
you are a beautiful butterfly.

Ben the Kahn: so,

Jeremy: So Ben, beyond the Teen
Titans cartoon, did you have

Ben the Kahn: uh, Yes.

Yes.

If you want another early movie from
a director who is now considered a

modern master and also features the
relationship between a child and his.

Kind of grandpa but it's also
just a very, very good movie.

I am gonna recommend Hunt
for the Wilder people.

Luke: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Erica: I

Ben the Kahn: Yes,

Erica: favorite of his movies.

Ben the Kahn: it's so good.

Uh, Yes.

Directed by Tawa Titi and starring Julian
Denison and the incomparable Sam Neil

Emily: Incomparable is definitely
a word I can apply to Samuel.

Jeremy: Erica, did you have
anything you wanted to recommend

Erica: I mean, I guess I'll go back
and re recommend Ravenous, which, you

know, has themes of eating people as
a form of power and comparing that

to manifest destiny, which rules

Emily: Yes.

Erica: destiny.

The idea of,

you know,

Emily: cannibalism.

Erica: That, that power dynamic
as compared to manifest destiny.

Yeah.

Jeremy: is pro manifest destiny.

Erica: That's me.

And.

I guess I'm just gonna name
things that we've already

named, like we are what we are.

Absolutely rules.

Even without my memory of Tito.

That movie is another eating people
movie that is again, like about a

family, but is quiet and unsettling
and maybe less nice of a family.

And uh, finders, keepers.

That documentary about finding a
leg and a smoker, a real thing that

happened to a guy or a couple of guys.

I guess There's also
the guy that owns a leg.

Jeremy: Nice.

Uh, Luke, did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?

Luke: Uh, Yeah.

So Columbus used to regularly Covid
interrupted it uh, have a 24 hour sci-fi

marathon, which is where I initially
got to see City of Lost Children and

Delicates in one year and a 24 hour
horror marathon that would happen.

And thinking about this, I got
reminded of a 2017 film that we had

the Ohio premiere of called Replace.

And it's very similarly this film
without a person who's having

something happen to their body.

They aren't sure how it happened and
kind of what they go to as a result.

And it was a wild film to see after about
12 hours of watching other horror movies.

But

it's like, yeah.

And it's one of those films where
you go in knowing nothing about it

and you're going to be horrified
cuz there's a lot of body horror

in there, like far more than this.

But uh, it will stick with you,
it will get you to recommend it

to people like five years later.

Emily: Yeah.

The, uh, the poster here suggests a
lot about what is handled in the film.

Jeremy: the one thing that for some reason
was coming to mind for me, where we're

talking about sort of the Jim Hensey vibes
of this I was reminded of something I

haven't, I don't think I've recommended
on here before, which is the Film Mirror

Mask, which is sort of a Neil Gaiman
based just sort of post Jim Henson, Jim

Henson Studios, directed by Dave McCain.

Erica: But it's, it's so
Dave Fakin, like, it's

Emily: So

Erica: his art.

Jeremy: yeah,

Emily: good though.

I really love that movie.

Jeremy: it's beautiful and weird
and wild and has sort of that,

that feel that you get from Dave
McCain and Neil Gaiman's stuff.

And yeah, is, is really good.

And again, has a sort of, you know,
this movie only sort of has a young

female protagonist, but Mira Mask
definitely has a young female protagonist

who's, you know, at the center of it.

And it is a really interesting, at least
sort of horror adjacent, but like weird

fantasy for the most part is, is sort of.

, the vibe, the Neil Game
and vibe, if you will,

.
Emily: Well, it's

like if Neil Gaiman did Labyrinth.

Erica: I was about to
say the exact same thing.

Emily: Oh, really?

Erica: Yeah.

Emily: I think that's what it is for me.

Is it?

Yeah.

I did remember the name of
that movie, it's Dream Child.

That is the, it's about the woman that
was like the inspiration for Alison

Wonderland and her being like, interviewed
for this special anniversary of the

book release or something like that.

And then there's a weird subtext
that s um, Louis Carroll was

like inappropriate with her.

Um,

Erica: A theory that it,
that's the real theory.

Emily: yeah, it's a very British
subtext, so it's really folded in there.

She has these hallucinations of the
creatures from the book and they

look terrifying and is awesome.

they're all Jim Henson puppet.

Jeremy: This is Dream Child,
not to be confused with the

1989 nightmare on Elm Street.

Five, the dream child,
which nobody should watch.

Emily: Yeah, no, this is, this
is something very different.

Jeremy: It's the worst
nightmare on Elm Street.

Don't do it to yourself, but do watch

Erica: Is it, I feel like
they get progressively worse.

Is that the, isn't that,
isn't there one more After it?

Emily: think Dream Warriors is
good, but Freddy's Revenge is

not as good as Dream Warriors.

Jeremy: well there's this Dream Warriors
Dream Master and then yeah, they, five is,

is probab is almost certainly the worst.

We do get, come back round to
Freddy's Dead, which is not

good, but is not like just utter
bullshit the way dream trial is.

Erica: Oh, no, no, wait.

Yeah, you're right.

Dream Child is the, yes.

It's

Jeremy: Dream trial is the one that I
couldn't find at the video rental place

because people just hated it that much.

I had to like go searching
for it and immediately

regretted it once I watched it.

Erica: Amazing.

Emily: the the Good dream
child has Ian home and Peter

Gallagher in its, there's that.

Jeremy: sure.

Erica: Great.

Jeremy: Uh, Well that's gonna do
it for talking about the movie.

I do want to give you guys a chance
to let people know where they

can find uh, more of your stuff.

Erica, I know you have a
uh, a book coming out soon.

Do you wanna let people know where
they can find out more about that

and what else you're working on?

Erica: Yeah, some I co-wrote with
Brian North and I drew it a book

called Danger and Other Unknown Risks.

It's out at the beginning
of April through Penguin.

Uh, You can pre-order it from, I think
you can get it from comic shops now.

I think it's, we're close enough that
pre-orders are available in most places.

I do a podcast with a previous
guest, Benito Creto and Matt Wilson

called Till the End, where we
talk about the TV show, Chucky.

And we're between seasons right now, so.

, I think when this episode comes out,
the last episode we'll have done is

Puppet Master, but the next one will
be Megan for continuing with Dolls.

Emily: Oh,

Erica: Uh,

Jeremy: That's exciting.

Ben the Kahn: movie.

Erica: it comes out on
Peacock in two days.

or I guess it, it will have
been out on Peacock for many

days by the time you hear this.

Ben the Kahn: Yes.

Well, I know what I'm

Erica: Um,

and I have a book coming out this
October with Alex De Campy, but you

won't be thinking about that for a
while, cuz it's currently February.

That's Parasocial.

Emily: Well, no listen, pre-orders

Erica: we're not there yet.

we're not I've not

even done drawing yet.

Jeremy: All right.

And uh, Luke, what about you?

Where can people find out more
about what what you've got going.

Luke: Typically I'm outlined in
various places as Tre, K o l t r e G,

so Twitter, your other social medias.

The main podcast I'm promoting right now
is do don, d o h m a n c e d a w n, which

is a Simpsons one piece podcast where
we recap one piece and then fan cast uh,

Simpson's characters into those roles.

And then have wonderful co
cover art by uh, great artists.

Uh, it's a very fun, chill podcast.

And then you can find a bunch of my other
stuff@lukehair.com, l u k e h e r r.com.

Or you can find a bunch of my
comics, including Super Slasher,

which is a superhero romcom slasher
at by Gum Road, which is once

again KOL t r e g dot gum road.com.

Jeremy: fantastic.

Emily: I am sharing this I'm sharing your,
your website right now with my friends

because Do Don right up there, alley.

Luke: I am more than happy
to get more people onto it.

Emily: Oh yeah.

Oh yes.

Jeremy: uh,

As for the rest of us uh, you
can find Emily at Mega Moth on

Twitter and at mega underscore
moth on Instagram and@megamoth.net.

Ben is on their Twitter at Ben the Con
and on their website@benconcomics.com,

where you can pick up all their
books and you can pre-order.

L Campbell wins their weekend, their debut
of middle grades novel from Scholastic.

And finally, for me, you can find me on
Twitter and Instagram at j Room 58 and

on my website, jeremy whitley.com, where
you can check out everything I write and

pre-order may upcoming graphic novel, the
Dog Knight coming from McMillan in May.

Along with our, our good friend
and, and previous guest, Bre Indigo.

That's exciting.

And of course, the podcast is on Patreon.

It progressively horrified our website.

It progressively horrified transistor
FM and on Twitter at Prague Horror podd,

where we would love to hear from you.

Speaking of loving to hear from you,
we would love it if you would rate

and review this podcast forever.

You're listening to it.

It helps us find new listeners
when you give us lots of stars.

Thanks again to Erica
and Luke for joining us.

Guys, this was fun.

This movie was a ball.

Thanks so much for coming on.

Luke: Hi.

Emily: you so much.

Erica: Great.

Ben the Kahn: Yes.

Thank you so much.

This was such a blast to talk about.

Jeremy: Absolutely.

And uh, thanks for all
of you for listening.

Thanks to Emily and Ben for being here.

And until next time, stay horrified.

All right.

Emily: Thanks guys.