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How should we punish people for crime? How did Jesus always beat his opposition at their own game? And what on earth will marriage and sex be like in the next life? This week Pastor Matt Brown, Justin Pardee and Stephanie Keen talk whether or not there will be free will after we die and what the difference is between heaven and the new earth.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Now to avoid yawning, everyone just do some mental jumping jacks real quick. Get the oxygen to your brain.
Matt Brown:I'm not the yawner. Nope. You know what Stephanie's
Stephanie Schaefer:favorite I never yawn because you're boring.
Matt Brown:Stephanie's favorite music artist is?
Stephanie Schaefer:Oh, not yawny. Yawny. Well, get them all out now, guys.
Justin Pardee:I'm trying to yawn yawn in sixty seconds.
Stephanie Schaefer:Wild Blue Yonder.
Justin Pardee:Yawn of the dead. We back everybody. This is The Debrief, weekly q and a podcast from your friends here at Sandals Church. And this ain't no intro, this is the entree. I am your host, Jessam Pardee.
Stephanie Schaefer:And I get my word from the sermon and I'm Stephanie Keene.
Justin Pardee:And right here over here with that holistic discernment, it's PMB. Pastor Matt Brown, the PMB. Everyone, this is a beautiful beautiful morning. Debrief is all we got and we are excited to have you here hanging out with us for what I think is gonna be a pretty wide and wild ranging conversation as we journey through Luke chapter 20 among many other follow-up items. But before we get into that, we have some incredible first of all, sad news.
Justin Pardee:I just want to let you guys Here's the deal. I love love doing the debrief, but personally, I don't even know I'm kind of at a place where I'm like, do should I come back next week at all? We received zero new reviews this week.
Stephanie Schaefer:That hurts.
Justin Pardee:Not a single one.
Matt Brown:Well, somebody came up to me at the gym and said that she loves the debrief, but can't figure out how to leave a review.
Stephanie Schaefer:That's true. Very verbal reviews.
Matt Brown:I don't know how to do it.
Justin Pardee:I've Yeah. I've heard some nice verbal reviews. Here's what I would just ask for the If you If there's any love, joy or can Well, I was trying to quote Philippians two, if you have any, then make my joy complete. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Nailed that one.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'll leave gonna leave the rest
Matt Brown:of
Justin Pardee:the the bible bible to
Matt Brown:why you're not the senior master.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. I'll leave the rest of the bible stuff to you today. Here's the deal, make our joy complete. We would love a beautiful review. Here's the deal.
Justin Pardee:So far, we're hold still holding strong with only five star reviews. I gotta be honest with you, I would take even a four star review right now. Oh. Just to have new ones coming in. We may
Matt Brown:get a four star review after your bible quote.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. That's true.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. You're right. That was
Stephanie Schaefer:a four star quote.
Justin Pardee:Well, listen. We do have some other fantastic news and that we have a winner from our first ever, the debrief contest. Actually, me quickly verify that. Have we run any previous debrief contests? I don't think we have.
Stephanie Schaefer:Don't think so.
Justin Pardee:I think this is our first ever debrief contest with the brand new The Debrief t shirts. We asked you guys to post them on Instagram using hashtag The Debrief and we have some absolutely incredible incredible photos. The winner of our contest, Stephanie, you got to show this to pass her map.
Stephanie Schaefer:I sure do.
Justin Pardee:Comes from at m m m kabemka. And look at this caption, she says, hey Llama, Let me tell you about my favorite podcast.
Stephanie Schaefer:It's her in her debrief t shirt, feeding a carrot to a llama, and it's pure gold, folks.
Matt Brown:Check out
Justin Pardee:the hashtag Amazing.
Stephanie Schaefer:Debrief and enjoy what we got to experience as well.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. We will also we'll get that over on our Facebook page. So if you're not following us on Facebook, search for go to Facebook, search for The Debrief and you'll find that awesome photo. So Emily, we're going to work and get this episode named after you in some way shape or form. We're excited about that.
Justin Pardee:And a very second close runner-up was from Daniel Collins, who was wearing his debrief shirt when he met Kylo Ren
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:At Disneyland. That photo was so cool.
Matt Brown:Interesting. Both things I'm very afraid of. Kylo Ren and llamas. Really? Llamas are creepy.
Stephanie Schaefer:I think they're cute. They're weird, but they're cute.
Matt Brown:They're weird. They have long necks and I think I got chased by one when I was
Justin Pardee:in Peru. Earlier Okay. That explains
Matt Brown:a lot. But I wasn't sure if my brain was swelling because I had elevation sickness.
Justin Pardee:I think I got chased by a llama in Peru.
Matt Brown:It's true.
Justin Pardee:But it
Stephanie Schaefer:could have been from your brain swelling.
Justin Pardee:That's That is crazy. Well, Daniel Collins, congratulations on being our first runner-up.
Matt Brown:First
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Is that first runner-up, is that the nice way of saying something?
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Because every time you like listen to them announcing stuff, then the first runner-up, you realize not first place, first runner-up, which is awful.
Justin Pardee:So, sadly, you will not have this episode named after you. However, if at some point we ever get like the Debrief cupcakes, I promise you can have the first official tasting of the Debrief cupcakes.
Stephanie Schaefer:And, if that's not a gift, I don't
Justin Pardee:know what is.
Stephanie Schaefer:Right. So here
Justin Pardee:will have the first unofficial tasting
Matt Brown:of the debrief Sure you will.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yes. We all knew that was true. So here on the debrief, we are taking your questions from pastor Matt's sermons and as we walk through the books of Luke and Acts this year at Sandals Church. So if you've got questions, we would love to hear them. You can send them in at sandals church dot com slash the debrief.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Let's jump right in. We got some great follow-up questions. This first one comes from Mark and he says, at the end of the parable of the 10 minas in Luke chapter 19 verse 27, Jesus says, but those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me. So assuming that this king represents God or Jesus, that last part where he says kill them in front of me seems unnecessarily harsh.
Justin Pardee:And Mark asked, can you help give us some perspective on this that's easier to swallow or do we just need to take that as it is?
Matt Brown:Yeah. As Christians, you know, we we become way too modern in our thinking. The modern world is unable to punish anyone for any crime. It's the reason why the death penalty is becoming more and more unpopular throughout the modern world. I mean, it doesn't matter.
Matt Brown:I mean, I'll give you an example. That guy in Switzerland or Finland, I can't remember, he shot and killed like 73 kids at a summer camp. And he has a three bedroom apartment in prison because they don't want him with any other people, and he's complaining actually to the Denmark or whatever government it is that he doesn't he needs to have rights to see other people. He has like his own Blu ray player, music, and all kinds of and just like, are you kidding me? I mean, what do you have to do to be punished anymore?
Matt Brown:It's ridiculous. And so God God is not afraid of punishing people. He is not afraid of dealing with people. And so, you know, the king in this story goes to heaven, it's Jesus, he's going to heaven to receive his authority from God on high to return as king. And these people are saying, basically going to God saying, we don't want Jesus to rule over us.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. We don't like him, we don't care about him. And so basically, it's a violation of the first commandment. Thou shall have no other gods before me. What they're saying is, and this is what atheists say, this is what even, you know, many agnostics say, even though they don't want to admit it, is I wanna be my own god.
Matt Brown:I wanna be in charge. And then here's the truth, you didn't make yourself, you don't own yourself, you are God's possession, and you are God's creation, and that's the reality. And when you reject God and you disobey God, the consequence for that is death. Because the Bible says, Jesus Christ says this, John fourteen six, and lot of people don't think about this. He says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.
Matt Brown:Your life, my life does not exist from ourselves. My life emanates from the life of Christ. So if I reject Christ, I'm rejecting life. Mhmm. Because life is in him and only in him.
Matt Brown:And so to reject Christ, to reject the king, is to is to welcome death. Eternal death. And and and unfortunately, you know, people don't like to hear that, but that's that's the reality. You know, not everybody's experience in hell will be the same. Jesus talks about this, specifically when he has a conversation with Pilate, he says, my Jewish brothers and sisters will be guilty of the greater sin.
Matt Brown:What Pilate did was still a sin, but those people who handed him over, and those are the people in this story, right, that went and said we don't want this guy to rule over us, which is actually what they say to Pilate. He's not our king. Mhmm. We don't want him. Right.
Matt Brown:I mean, this actually happens. Yeah. We don't want him. And those people are going to be dealt with, and Jesus says, it's going to be better for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment. So think about it.
Matt Brown:Sodom and Gomorrah is the cities in the old testament that were so wicked, so evil, so awful, that God actually burned those cities with fire from heaven.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:God says it's gonna be better for them on the day of judgment, than for these people who rejected Christ. And not only that, but really worked politically to have him murdered.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, so yeah. So people just, you know, our our our concept of God and Jesus is so warped by our modern culture that just can't stomach people being held accountable for anything. We can't we can't hold people accountable for any it doesn't matter what they do. Our culture can't hold people responsible for their decisions, but God can.
Justin Pardee:So this line kill them in front of me makes me think It reminds me of like the old, you know, Roman Coliseums where there would be the battles and at the end, you've got the crowd chanting for death and whoever was officiating was gonna kind of make that decision. It almost make sounds like, you know, they're taking pleasure at the idea of seeing death. Is that is is that what's being referenced here with the No.
Matt Brown:No. What he's saying is I am the king. Whether you accept me or not, I'm the king, and you're gonna die in front of me knowing that I'm the king. Just like the Bible says, one day every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Whether they believed him or not, everybody's bowing before his authority.
Matt Brown:And so what Jesus is saying, you can reject me, but one day you're going to be judged in front of me. So, you know, even Muslims who reject Jesus as the son of God, believe that he is the judge on judgment day. Muhammad is not the judge. Jesus is the judge. You will stand before the great white throne of judgment, and Jesus will exercise that judgment.
Matt Brown:But not only that, as Christians, the Bible says that we're going to judge with him. For those of us who are in Christ, we're going to judge. We're going to help God in the judgment. And so we need we need to be ready and prepared to do that.
Justin Pardee:Alright. Got it.
Stephanie Schaefer:Our next follow-up question is from John Lawson who asks, you mentioned a couple times and when you mentioned the creation story and the word, my Hebrew is terrible or nonexistence, tomoho. Yeah. He's trying to find this word in Genesis and has been unable to. Where is it?
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's because I'm saying it wrong. I apologize, John. The word is I don't know why I'm saying, but I've been saying that for a while. It's and it is found in Genesis one two, the earth was null and void.
Matt Brown:And so here's the challenge. So when the Bible's being translated by William Tyndale, so famous famous guy, Tyndale Publishing, great guy, great servant of the Lord, he is borrowing from a tradition of translation. And so even when we talk about modern translations, and so the people, you know, the King James say, well, James only shouldn't read modern church. They're all borrowing from the history of translation. Nobody just, you know, unless you're a cult, you don't just start with your own translation.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:Because there are other saints and other Christians who have translated this before. And so the concept of null and void is a Greek philosophical concept. And so what they believed was and so this is not a biblical concept. It was a Greek philosophical concept that the world was in the beginning was null and void. And so what's the best way to understand that?
Matt Brown:So if you're a child of the seventies, which neither of you are, there were these cool things called lava lamps.
Justin Pardee:Yes. I've seen those.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So lava lamps. So Google lava lamps. And so that was the Greek understanding of what the world looked like. And so kind of this liquid mass, but not really kind of together.
Matt Brown:The and so and so the problem is when the Hellenistic Jews, the Greek thinking Jews began to translate the Bible, they changed the Hebrew to fit with the Greek philosophical mind. And so they they changed this word into this word null and void. So it would be easier for Greek thinkers to understand and say, oh, okay. So this god is like our thinking. Aristotle is the great unmoved mover.
Matt Brown:The problem with that is, tohu means wild. Mhmm. That's that's what it means. And so for example, Jeremiah, the prophet Jeremiah, when he is watching Jerusalem burn to the ground and everybody being carried carried off to Babylon, his comment about the promised land is that it is Tohu Wabohu. Now does he mean that the land of Israel is null and void without form?
Matt Brown:No. It is desolate. It is a wasteland. It is not suitable anymore for people. And God actually says that he has to give the land a rest for seventy years from the people's sin.
Matt Brown:The land needs a rest. It's not the promised land anymore. It's it's a wasteland. And so God moves the people out, so that he can move them back in. So what it really means is, Genesis one two, the earth is not suitable for mankind.
Matt Brown:That's what it means in the original 10. And the problem with null and void is that it gives us this picture of this gaseous mass.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And that's that's not what the what it's teaching. And so the Hebrew literally means it's wild. So then we need to go back to Genesis one one. In the beginning, God created created the heavens and the earth.
Stephanie Schaefer:So there's a follow-up question from him talking about if you believe in a gap theory in creation or six literal days.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I I would actually say I probably believe both, and that's gonna completely weird him out. So when I say in the beginning, what do you think I mean?
Justin Pardee:Very beginning of time?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, and you don't know what I'm asking for, but I think you think starting point.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so that's the problem. So the English word in the beginning indicates starting point. The problem is that's not what the Hebrew word means. The Hebrew word is Bereshit, which means period of time.
Matt Brown:So here's here's how it should be translated. Over a period of time, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis one one. So here's the problem. When we translate it starting point, now we're stuck with everything has to be instantaneously created, and everything has to like and and think about, you know, the ecological systems and all the things that take place for life to exist.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:You know? And so scientists tell us that these things take a lot of time for there to be an ecological system for things to exist. So when we translate Genesis one one in the beginning, and we think in an instant, in a second, right, God created the heavens and the earth, it creates a huge problem for us. When the Hebrew does not say that. It says over a period of time, God created the heavens and the earth.
Matt Brown:Genesis one one. Then Genesis one two, God does something very specific for a period of six days.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:He begins to work. And so what I would say is, I believe both that God created the heavens and the earth, he did that. How long did it take? The Bereshit doesn't tell us. It says over a period of time.
Justin Pardee:What's that? You said Bereshit?
Matt Brown:Bereshit. So it just it means it means period of time. It's it, you know I got it. Just It can mean a week, it can mean a month, it can mean years. K.
Matt Brown:Literally, it the the word is it's just it's just a word that doesn't translate well into English. And so so then, to his question, God does something very specific over a period of six days. And what he's doing is he's preparing the earth for mankind's arrival. And so, that's just what I believe. And so, you know, the problem with Genesis one is it's poetic.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So it it's not like a literal chronological, you know, it's not a it's not a reporter like watching a game. You know, in the first inning this happened, in the second inning, you know, that's not it's it's poetry. And so it's difficult for us to, you know, hold to, you know, everything absolutely literal, and that's why you have Christians that are all over on on the map on this issue. And so, and you know, many many interpretations are fair.
Matt Brown:What I would say is this, as a Christian, you have to hold to this, God made it. Mhmm. He made it. He made it all. He made it all out of nothing.
Matt Brown:How exactly he did that? Genesis one one, and Genesis two, you know, through the rest of the verses, and then chapter two, which really is two different creation accounts from different perspectives. Mhmm. But but it's two different creation accounts about the same thing from different perspectives. One from kind of a global perspective, and the other from mankind's perspective.
Matt Brown:So, you know, Genesis one just tells us that he made male and female in his image. Genesis two tells us he made man, and then he made woman from the man. So it's it's it's different perspectives on the same story.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so what I would just say is, you know, to be a Christian and to be what I would consider, you know, a legit Christian church, you have to hold to God created the heavens and the earth. Don't think that you have to hold to six literal days, gap three, and there's all kinds of things that people are gonna be thinking, what whatever. You know, because Christians, we argue over everything. Yeah. So what you have to hold to is that God made it.
Matt Brown:Specifically how he did that, you know, all we have is Moses's poetry to describe. And I think it should be poetry by the way, because he's describing, you know, it takes an artist to describe an artist's work.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And that's what I think, you know. He didn't he didn't ask, you know, a news reporter to describe, you know, an artist's work, because a news reporter is gonna give a very different account of the Mona Lisa from a poet. But a poet's gonna give a different account. And so a poet is writing Genesis one and two, and it's beautiful. So so that's that's what I think is, and
Justin Pardee:So last week you talked about like this idea of eliminating barriers that coming to the gospel and only focusing on the essentials. Is this an example?
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so, you know, because we we get into these traps, and so here's what happened. Christians wanted to be seen as smart in Greek philosophical eyes. So they twisted the Hebrew word to mean something that was culturally appropriate for that day. Like for example, Christians always get slammed because we used to teach the world was flat.
Matt Brown:Well, wasn't our idea. Yeah. That was scientists and philosophers ideas. And the church adopted that view to try to seem smart for the time. And so what we need to do is we we need to quit sticking with culture and stick with the words.
Matt Brown:Every single word is inspired by God. Because a lot of scientists will completely reject Christianity because of the young earth theory. Well, the earth has to be I think Jews say it's 5,000, like, 800 and something years old. Mhmm. And that's problematic because of carbon dating.
Matt Brown:And so then we try to fight with carbon dating, and how their scientific material is not accurate and this and that. And it's like, look back off.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Genesis one one tells you we don't know how old it is. Yeah. We don't know how old it is. But we do know that, and then here's what's trippy. We do know that about six, seven thousand years ago, Homo sapiens showed up.
Matt Brown:And there's no geological record of us anywhere. You know, when we were kids in school, maybe not when you guys were in school, we were taught, know, that Cro Magnon man and all these now they're saying they're not related at all. So Homo sapiens are a unique species that show up six, seven, eight thousand years ago, which is ironically pretty close to the dating of Adam and Eve to us. So
Justin Pardee:Yeah. I love the freedom that comes with that. You guys, thank you for these follow-up questions. They're I I really like getting into those.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So there's a great book by doctor Sailhammer. I don't know if he's alive anymore, it's
Justin Pardee:called Sailhammer. Right?
Matt Brown:Sailhammer. Sailhammer. It's Genesis Unbound, an incredible book. And he wrote that because his daughter was a student at MIT. And she came back with all these questions.
Matt Brown:And he is probably the most well known Hebrew scholar in in the last thirty to forty years. And so he wrote this book Genesis Unbound. And his point is, get back to what the words say, not what we think they mean. So It's great.
Justin Pardee:That's really good. That's awesome. Well, thanks for all the follow-up questions. I really love having those. Let's let's dive right in.
Justin Pardee:We're gonna dive hard into the deep end of Luke chapter 20 where the authority of Jesus is being challenged. So, it starts off in the religious leaders approach Jesus and they're saying, by what authority do you do all these things? And Jesus says, well, let me ask you a question first. They can't come up with an answer. In verse eight, Jesus responded, then I won't tell you by what authority I do these things.
Justin Pardee:So here's what I was wondering, why doesn't Jesus just directly answer these religious leaders?
Matt Brown:Because they'll kill him right there. And so he has a specific appointment to die on Passover. I mean, right? He's crucified before the foundations of the earth. He is moving to his death at the precise time.
Matt Brown:It is a time fixed in all human history. And so he's he's going to be illusionary until the very end.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:Yeah. That's why.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So then we get into this whole thing where there's the parable of the farmers, and there's this whole back and forth, right, where verse 15 through 16, after renting out his farm, the farmer well, not the farmer, the owner of the vineyard sends guys to work it and then eventually says his he sends his own son. So, they dragged him out of the vineyard and murdered him. What do you suppose the owner of the vineyard will do to them? Jesus answered or asked.
Justin Pardee:I'll tell you, he will come and kill those farmers and leave the vineyard to others. How terrible such a thing would ever happen. His listeners protested.
Matt Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:So, people are having a hard time with this story. Who who's the who are the farmers that Jesus is talking about?
Matt Brown:Well, okay. So in the text, they're not having a hard time with the people being thrown out and murdered. They're having a hard time with the tenants of the vineyard killing the son. So when they say, may this never be, that's what they're talking about. This will never happen.
Matt Brown:But it is going to happen because Jesus is the son, and they're going to kill him. And the people who are gonna kill him know exactly, they they know they they realize he's talking about them. And so they try to plot and plan to kill him. So what's your question specifically?
Justin Pardee:Well, let me ask you this question. Jesus quotes in response to that, he quotes verses In verses 17 through 18, he says, Jesus looked at them and said, and this is a quotation, the stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone. Everyone who stumbles over that stone will be broken into pieces and it will crush anyone who falls on it. So Jesus was quoting Psalm one eighteen verse 22 here because everybody was Mhmm. That was listening and he's responding to them.
Justin Pardee:And the religious leaders take offense at what's going on here. So, Eddie Cullen, our one of our worship leaders here, he said he was looking at Psalm one eighteen and it's really a Psalm of praise and then Jesus kind of uses it here in this moment of almost like chastising the religious leaders. Can we talk about this holy Yeah.
Matt Brown:It's it's supposed to be a day of worship. I mean, the psalmist says this is a day of worship when this cornerstone shows up. And and it actually says, and all who believe in this stone are gonna be saved. And so here this stone has showed up, and they're they're rejecting him. And so here's what Jesus is saying, all who reject this cornerstone, when they fall on it or it falls on them, they will be crushed.
Matt Brown:And so what he's saying is, anyone who rejects me as savior, there is no there's salvation in no one else. There is no hope for you if you reject God's gracious gift of salvation. And that's what's so sad about human beings. I mean, this is how sinful we are. You know, not only do we not completely accept the fact of how sinful we are and how rebellious we are, but we are we are we are like completely perturbed and and offended that God would require us to accept his one way of forgiveness.
Matt Brown:That's how tweaked we are. We sinned, we rebelled, and now we're upset because we don't think God should have the authority to choose how the relationship is righted. Jesus is quoting the Psalms, and he's given them an opportunity. Right? This day should be a day of worship, but instead, you're plotting to kill me.
Matt Brown:Instead of worshiping me, instead of believing in me, you're plotting to kill me. But what you think is happen what you think is gonna happen is you think it's gonna kill me, but what is gonna happen is you're gonna be condemned to a hell forever. Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:So And then ultimately, that kind of opens up the door for the the I mean, the the Jewish leaders rejecting Jesus Yeah. Opens up the door for like us, the non Jews. Right? Exactly.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. And so and that's why the Apostle Paul, and when we get to book of Acts, he repeatedly goes to the Jews, goes to the Jews, goes to the Jews, then eventually just says, from now on, I will preach to the Gentiles. Because he has preached enough, and and I think he believes that Christ has been accepted by all the Jews who accept him, and has now been rejected by all the Jews who are gonna reject him, and he's gonna move on to the Gentiles. And that's us.
Matt Brown:Right. Because God's heart has always been not just to save Israel, but to save the nations. Mhmm. And to and to love the nations and to be with the nations forever. Because Israel was supposed to be not just a religious sect or, you know, a an ethnic people.
Matt Brown:They were supposed to be missionaries. They were supposed to tell the world about God's love and God's law, and they didn't do that. They they focused inward instead of outward. Mhmm. And because of that, you know, God raised up the church to tell the world about his son.
Justin Pardee:This is really consistent with the way Luke chapter 19 ends, where Jesus is upset in the temple because they're interfering with Yeah. The non Jews coming to worship and.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so, I mean, that's the thing is it's always been it's always been a part of of Jewish history and Jewish teaching is that, you know, God's house will be a house of prayer for all nations. And we see this throughout scripture. Like with Jonah, Nineveh is more responsive to the preaching of the gospel and repentance than Jewish people. So what what did the Jews do to their own prophets?
Matt Brown:They kill them. They boil them in oil, they cut them apart, they do all kinds of horrible things. What happens when prophets preach to the nations? What happens when Daniel preaches to Nebuchadnezzar? What happens when Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego stand up before God, you know, in a foreign land?
Matt Brown:These foreign lands are like, oh my gosh.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Even the kings are
Matt Brown:Yeah. They're like, please tell God to forgive us. But when God sends preachers to his own people, the bible says they're stiff necked. Mhmm. You know?
Matt Brown:And so God's desire in heart was to reach the world. So And to love the world, because the world has fallen in broken place. Because you have to remember, we all go back to the same family. We all come from Adam and Eve.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So it's always been his people.
Stephanie Schaefer:So those conversations kinda keep happening. So in verses twenty five and twenty six, Jesus is responding to a question about whether or not to pay taxes. And he says, well then, to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God. So they failed to trap him by what he said in front of the people. Instead, they were amazed by his answer and they became silent.
Stephanie Schaefer:So this keeps happening over and over that Jesus sort of outwitting these religious leaders. What's the
Justin Pardee:Yeah. He's like basically beating them at their own game. Yeah.
Matt Brown:No. Because you gotta remember, the Jews were brilliant people. These Sadducees were the most educated. I mean, these guys knew more about scripture than Christians will ever know. And they they had confidence in this, and they they would challenge each other.
Matt Brown:Just like in Athens, you know, the philosophers would gather around and debate philosophies and thoughts and ideas. You know, in the temple, they would gather together and debate and challenge one another with theology and understandings about scripture. So they were fairly confident. And Jesus just, I mean, just blows them away like they're children. I mean, they they just they don't even know what to do.
Matt Brown:And so they think they've got him. And so they've set up these questions. And so that's what Luke 20 really is. It's questions that are intended. So they've met together, they've conspired, how can we trip him up?
Matt Brown:You know, how can we ask him a question, you know, like, if God's if God's so great and can can do everything, can he create a rock that he can't pick up? Right? They create these, like, almost unanswerable questions. And what's amazing is Jesus flips them on them, and he answers it in such a way where they're just blown away. And so here, you know, here's this answer is they feel like it's it's it's not right for God's people to pay taxes to Caesar.
Matt Brown:And so if he says pay taxes to Caesar, then they feel like they got him. He's a traitor to Israel, and he will be stoned by Israelites because he can't be a God's prophet because he's saying we should pay taxes to this pagan, you know, awful terrible immoral Mhmm. Country, Rome, who's rivaling for God's attention. But if he says, don't pay taxes, then they can turn him into the Roman officials and say, he's stirring up rebellion. So they feel like they've got him either way.
Matt Brown:And what's amazing is Jesus says, give me a coin whose face is on it. And so they look at it and it's Caesar's face. And he says, render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's. And so this is what's so brilliant about it. So on a coin, you would have an imprint of Caesar's face.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So the question is, what is then imprinted? What what has God imprinted his face on? And the answer is us.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:So go back to Genesis, you know, God created male and female in his image. His image is on us. So give yourselves to God. Give your coins to Caesar. And so it's and they're just like, oh my gosh, we can't win.
Justin Pardee:And yet, is this whole thing so Jesus has come to Jerusalem, and we're coming to the end of Luke. Is this whole chapter they're basically trying to come up with excuses to justify killing him.
Matt Brown:Yeah. They wanna kill him.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:They're trying they're trying to figure out a way because they're bound by laws. And so the Romans did not allow the Jews to kill people, even though it happened. I mean, like they stoned Stephen Right. And that was that was something that wasn't wasn't good. And so they do from time to time kill people without, you know, not illegally, so to speak in the Roman era.
Matt Brown:But they try not to do that because Rome ultimately is gonna crack down on them. You know, you guys don't get to kill people. You have to come to us for that ability. And so they've gotta figure out a way to legally kill Jesus. And ultimately, they figure it out.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Okay. So then this whole next section is this conversation with the Sadducees, and I guess they're trying to stump Jesus once again to get him Right. To tram up the reason. And they asked these questions about resurrection.
Justin Pardee:Verse 27 says, Jesus was approached by some Sadducees, religious leaders who say there's no resurrection from the dead. So, as you were preaching on Sunday, here's what I was thinking, is that most of the biblical case we hear about for heaven, hell, and you know, the new earth really come from scriptures in the New Testament. And, what I'm thinking is, what what parts of the Old Testament Jewish scriptures speak to this idea of eternity that the Sadducees were rejecting?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So the reality is that eternal life is not a fully formed thought in the Old Testament. Jesus reveals it in its pinnacle Okay. Thought. And so during the time when Jesus Christ arrived and you gotta remember, Jesus Christ arrives at precisely the right time.
Matt Brown:So here's what I would say Christians need to ask is what is it about first century Jews that were so right on? So we always think of them as having things wrong, but they had many things right that allowed the Messiah to come at that precise point in time. And so there's a lot of things that the Jews were doing right, and there's a lot of beliefs that were correct. They were figuring things out, and that's why it made it the perfect time for the Messiah to come. Because they're starting to understand and figure out over a period of time what this whole thing is about.
Matt Brown:And so Jesus Christ comes. So the ideas are not fully formed there about eternal life in the Old Testament, but there's there's snippets. For example, Job nineteen twenty five, Job says this, as for me, I know that my redeemer lives, and that at last he will take a stand on earth, even after my skin is destroyed. So he's saying, even after I'm dead, yet from my flesh I shall see God, which is bizarre, which I think is an allusion to the resurrection. Okay.
Matt Brown:He says, who myself I shall behold, and whom my eyes will see, and not another. My heart faints within me. He's so excited because he knows his redeemer lives. He knows that even though he dies, he's going to live on. The same thing in Isaiah 26, but your dead will live, Lord, their bodies will rise, and those who will dwell in the dust will wake up and shout for joy.
Matt Brown:So we we see it there. David, when his child dies, his his his child with Bathsheba Uh-huh. He he fasts, he won't eat, he's grieving for this child while the child's alive. Then all of sudden the child dies, and he's like, fine. And everyone's freaking out because you would think that he would mourn after the child's dead, but, you know, be doing more normal things while the child lives.
Matt Brown:But listen to what David said. He said, while the baby was still alive, he said, I fasted and I cried. I thought, who knows? Maybe the Lord will feel sorry for me and let the baby live. But now that the baby is dead, he says, why should I fast?
Matt Brown:I can't bring him back to life, but someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me. And so David has this idea that somehow there's life after death. He doesn't understand exactly what it is, but he has this deep rooted belief, and remember David's a prophet. He's not just a king, he's a prophet. And so he's prophesying this belief that there's something after death.
Matt Brown:There's life after death. He doesn't know exactly what it is, but he's comforted by the fact that the child he's lost in life, he will hold in the next life.
Justin Pardee:So So are these these are the kind of passages or old testament scriptures that like the pharisees would say, yes, we believe that something happens after we die, but the sadducees, like these are the things that they would debate about?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, and they would argue very very passionately, and so, you know, just like our Democrats and Republicans can't seem to get along, the Pharisees and Sadducees couldn't get along. And those aren't the only two political parties, there were other political parties, and so, you got got really really tense. And so the bottom line is the Pharisees are the most against against Jesus, because they're really not religious. And so, think about like the Reverend Jesse Jackson, the Reverend Al Sharpton, and I'm not picking on them at all because they're black.
Matt Brown:I'm pointing out that when's the last time they pastored and shepherded a church? Really what they are is they're politicians. And I think that they're great examples of what the Sadducees were. They really weren't shepherd. They weren't spiritual shepherds, they were they were politicians.
Matt Brown:And so what they were threatened by was the political popularity of Jesus. And they just They're they're really not interested in life after death. They're interested in life here. And so they wanna shut it down, and they want Jesus dead. They can't stand him.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:They can't stand him. The Pharisees on the other hand, they don't like him either, but they agree with a lot of things that he's saying. They agree in angels, they agree with demons, they agree with the resurrection. Those are the things that they believe in. They still don't like him because he's super popular, but they agree with him.
Matt Brown:The Pharisees were more interested in actually being shepherds to the people. The Sadducees were just rich, politically powerful people that had figured out how to make the best of a really bad situation. They were conquered by Rome, but they were still really powerful. And they got very very rich, because Romans allowed them to run the temple. And so they had a pretty good gig, and they didn't wanna see it destroyed.
Justin Pardee:Got it.
Stephanie Schaefer:So they continue this conversation with Jesus still talking about life after death, and they get into a whole conversation about marriage. And Jesus just replies to their whole spiel that they try to present to him to stump him again and says, marriage is for people here on earth. But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. So can you explain what does this mean for marriage in heaven or in the new world?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, I mean, there's there's a lot to talk here. I don't know how many questions you guys are gonna ask me on this. We'll just keep Yeah. So let's start with the issue of marriage.
Matt Brown:And so marriage is a, you know, something that's temporary. It's not an eternal thing. You know, the apostle Paul says that, you know, the greatest things are, you know, love, hope, and faith. But the greatest of these is love. And so love is what's eternal.
Matt Brown:Love is what will last. And so there's institutions that God has set up. Powerful institutions, things like the tabernacle, things like the temple, know, things like even going to church. Those things as beautiful as they are, they're all gonna fade away because the next life will be different. We won't need to go to church and learn, because God's going to teach us in our hearts.
Matt Brown:We're going to know these things intrinsically. Now we'll still have worship, but it's not gonna look like what church looks like today. It's going to be different. We need church now, but we don't need it then. Marriage is something that we need now, because the best way to raise a child is in the context of marriage.
Matt Brown:One dad, one mom, four life raising kids, and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. But in the next life, God will lead us. God will be our father, God will be our teacher, and he will be with us, and he will take that role of the family head. So right now, I'm the head of my family. I lead my family, but in the next stage, God is the head of the family, and there's one family.
Matt Brown:We all call him father. We are all drawn together on that. And so marriage is something that we need now, it's something that God instituted for this age. But we're going to, you know, Tammy and I, we're husband and wife in this life. We're going to relate to one another in a different way in the next life.
Matt Brown:It doesn't mean that we won't know each other, it doesn't mean that we won't love each other, it doesn't mean that we won't be intimate with each other. It means that the way that we interact will be different. Because ultimately, right, what what makes marriage a specific issue for God is the sexual union, the two shall become one flesh. Eternity is about us becoming one with God, and us being with him forever, and he with us. And so, you know, sex is something that God has given us, it's a desire, you know, that God has placed in us to want to be sexually intimate, because that's the way that human beings, you know, come together.
Matt Brown:I mean, until recently, there's technology now that doesn't require that sexual drive. But for most human history, the way that children were born was a man and woman coming together in sexual intimacy, so that they could be fruitful and multiply. There's going to come a time when there's no more need to to multiply, well done, you guys did it, and we're gonna move on. So I think that we're still gonna know each other, we're still gonna love each other. And you gotta remember, like I said in church, the people who love, you know, they love their marriage, they can't imagine, they're like, they're sad with this, but some people are in terrible marriages.
Matt Brown:They're in really really awful situations. And think about women, you know, women think about most of the women who've lived in human history.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:They had no say in who they were married to. You know, it was rough. God's gonna set them free from that, and we need to And remember so it's going to be a beautiful thing. And here's here's why I think it's so important, you know. And you know, I think about all the pressures that we face.
Matt Brown:And so much of the pressures we face in this life is, am I beautiful? Am I handsome? And and and and really our sexual drive creates so much angst. You know, my wife's always asked me, do you think I look beautiful? Do you And I'm like, yes, for the thousandth time.
Matt Brown:Yes. Why is that? Because our society is so sex driven, it makes people miserable. It's why women never wanna get old. You know, it's why men, you know, wanna work out and look young, you know, color their hair even though they're 80.
Matt Brown:It creates all this pressure on us, and that pressure comes from this desire to be seen sexually desirable.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And and yeah, it's powerful, but it creates a lot of crap. I mean, think about the tension it creates between women, girlfriends, between guys, it makes us adult it causes as much trouble as pleasure that it creates. And so, you know, sex is a great thing, but it's also a really really difficult thing to manage. And I think that we need to look at this in the next life is, you know, Stephanie's not gonna have to worry about whether or not she's hot for all eternity. Okay?
Matt Brown:Like you're single right now, you gotta stay in shape, right, because you wanna get married. I mean, that's the desire of your heart. She's right. Those those are pressures that she faces. You know, not you because you're eternally beautiful, Justin.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And don't know worry about this at all. Almost worships you because you're so gorgeous. You know, but for the rest of us, right, we all are constantly in this state of am I good enough? Am I am I sexy enough?
Matt Brown:Am I am I desired?
Justin Pardee:Yep.
Matt Brown:And ultimately, God is gonna say, yes, you're desirable, and I desire you, and I meet that. And that's what's gonna happen in the next life. And so as sad as many of us are to see sex go away, we have to understand that whatever desires we have in the next life, the only reason that you have a desire for sex in this life is because God gave it to you. It was his it was he's the one who gave you the desire and he allows you to fulfill it. Same thing with hunger.
Matt Brown:He gave you the desire to be hungry, and that's why we enjoy food. So you just gotta understand that in the next life, whatever desires we have that God gives us, they're going to be met in a powerful and incredible way. It just might not be sexual. And and I mean, I don't know for certain that there's not sex in heaven, but the Bible says that the only way we have sex is in the context of marriage. And if there's not marriage, I'm guessing, right, that there's not sex.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, some people are like, oh, thank God. And other people are like, oh, bummer. So
Justin Pardee:Okay. So this is gonna sound like I'm making this up and saying it so that I can improve my current earthly sex life. But, I can get down with the idea of, okay, I'm gonna go to heaven, not have sex anymore. I I But, the idea I mean, I love my wife. Anniversary is happening this week.
Justin Pardee:The idea that we're not like specially linked up and life partners or whatever for eternity is a little bit like bummer.
Matt Brown:Yeah. But Do
Justin Pardee:I not love God enough? Is that what that comes down to?
Matt Brown:No. Don't love God enough. You know Sure. No. I think you're missing out.
Matt Brown:You're going to be linked with her in a way that is more intimate than you ever experienced on earth. Mhmm. Because all of your insecurities and, you know, I mean, right? We all wanna have authentic relationships. So the truth is none of us are completely authentic even in the context of marriage, because we're scared all of those things are gonna be taken away.
Matt Brown:And in the next life, you're going to know Lindy in a way that's deeper than you ever knew her in this life. So it's going to be more intimate, not less intimate. But she is not going to be designated, you know, you two are going to relate to God as individuals Mhmm. Not as a couple. And so that's what he's he's saying.
Matt Brown:And so I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of intimacy, a lack of connection. You know, don't think that we're going to have kids anymore. I don't think that's going to happen. So, you know, the drive for sexual intimacy is no longer needed. Your kids your kids will already be there.
Matt Brown:Your families are already Yeah. We don't we don't need to do that. So you guys will still know each other in a very very powerful way, but our our desire for intimacy ultimately is with God. And so, you know, I mean, I don't know this to be true, but sex is not mentioned until Genesis four after the fall. Prior to the fall, the Bible says Adam and Eve were both naked.
Matt Brown:And listen to this, and they felt no shame. There was no insecurity amongst them. So they were still together in a powerful way, but the Bible doesn't mention sex. And so they loved each other, cared for each other, knew each other, were intimate with each other in such a way where there was no shame. Then sin comes, and then there's sexual intimacy, and God says, hey, you guys need to do this so that you can perpetually create.
Matt Brown:Because you're going to die now. Right? So why do Adam and Eve have to have kids? Because they're not gonna live forever anymore. So now you guys are going to die, so you have to procreate to continue the human race because you sinned.
Matt Brown:And so therefore, I'm gonna give you this desire that you're gonna love, but it's gonna drive you crazy. Right? I mean, it does. It drives you crazy. Now jealousy is born.
Matt Brown:Envy is born. All of these things and right look in Genesis what happens to sex. It it goes completely awry. But prior to the fall, Adam and Eve, I think you'll like this Mhmm. Are both naked Justin.
Justin Pardee:Yes.
Matt Brown:K? She
Justin Pardee:might Linda might not like it. It's a
Matt Brown:naked party.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:And they're loving it.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And there's no there's no insecurity. So they're relating to into each other in some way where they don't know that they're missing anything, and they love it and enjoy it. And so maybe, you know, prior to the fall, they were intimate together all the time. And so what now they can only experience in sex was something that they experienced with each other whenever they were together. See?
Matt Brown:So after the fall, sex is a temporary feeling that we share together, but prior to, it's something that we always share. You know? Mhmm. So
Justin Pardee:Very very weird little side note here. Growing up at a pretty small church, there was this couple who every summer, I guess, would go on vacation to a Christian nudist colony, which just seems like.
Matt Brown:That's an oxymoron.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. It seems very strange.
Stephanie Schaefer:That's not real.
Justin Pardee:It seems strange then, but I'm like, he's Now, can see him making the case for the fact that he's just getting ready for the new earth.
Matt Brown:Yeah. The bible says that you're to remain covered.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:And please cover
Justin Pardee:yourself Hey, look at. That's why that's why we get these sweet Debrief t shirts available for you guys at any of our campuses this weekend.
Stephanie Schaefer:So Jesus continues talking about heaven, the new earth especially, and he says they will never die again. In this respect, they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection. So you've told us this many times, sin is what leads to death. And so when we're not gonna die anymore, what does it look like to have free will then and make decisions if sin isn't really an option?
Stephanie Schaefer:What does free will look like?
Matt Brown:Right. I think we'll be like Jesus. Jesus had free will, but he was able to choose not to sin. Right now, we are slaves to sin. But when we receive Christ, right, we are now we're no longer controlled by sin.
Matt Brown:Romans eight says we're controlled by the spirit. I think in the next life, we will be ultimately controlled by the spirit. But we will still have we will still be free thinking individuals, but sin will no longer have control over us. And I think that we will be like Adam and Eve in the garden, with the exception of they had no idea what sin was, we will know what it is. And we'll we'll we will know that you you don't ever wanna go back.
Matt Brown:There's some experiences that I've had in life, some things that I've gone through and done, and it's never a temptation for me again. It was something that initially I was drawn to, and I was like, wanna experience this. I wanna go there, I wanna do that, then I did it, and I was like, man, that went really bad. Great
Justin Pardee:thinking about it.
Matt Brown:Yeah, so something that initially was a draw, because of my experience is no longer, I'm like, uh-uh, I'm never going there again. And that's what we call a stupid person, right? A person that continues to go back and back and back and back. And so I think in the next life, where temptation is, it's not gonna be temptation because we're freed from that, and we know what it is. Adam and Eve were free from it, but they didn't know.
Matt Brown:Right? And so to know is to experience. So just like in Genesis four one, Adam knew his wife. He experienced her.
Justin Pardee:I'm kind of reminded of like Luke 10 when Wayne Cordero was out here and he was just talking about gaining the gaining this wisdom and leveraging that wisdom to help you make better decisions here in life. And that's what I'm reminded of, kind of as you're explaining that concept is that it almost be like everyone having this supernatural spiritual wisdom
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:That more, you know, accurate accurately guides the way that we're living in the new earth. Yeah. Okay. I
Matt Brown:mean, Paul says, I will know as I'm fully known. So we're we're gonna our minds are gonna be blown. I mean, we're you they say what humans use two to 3% of their mental capacity. Yeah. I've seen that in movies trailers.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I don't if that's true, but you know, that's what they tell us is that we have not even come close to exercising our mental capacity. So we're we're going to be brilliant.
Justin Pardee:That's why I keep, you know, hanging around in the desert when it's raining. I'm hoping to get struck by lightning and really on. Tap into the full potential of this brain. Yeah. That's definitely what's
Matt Brown:Or you'll drop dead. One of the two.
Justin Pardee:Well, the Lord is with me.
Stephanie Schaefer:Man, I'm gonna take odds on this one. So
Justin Pardee:Okay. Fair enough. Let's talk about this. We've been going back and forth using this language heaven and new earth. Can can we talk about the difference between those two things really quickly?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So it's it's really unfortunate and it's really frustrating. And I I know a lot of our I can't tell you how many people came up to me on Sunday and they said, why have I never heard this? And the answer is, don't know. At some point, we fell so in love with this idea of heaven that we forgot earth, the new earth.
Matt Brown:And so all the here's the entire bible. Let me summarize the entire bible from Genesis to Revelation. God wants to be with us here. Genesis one and two is not God created heaven and people to be with him in heaven. God created the earth, and he visited us, and he was with us on earth.
Matt Brown:And so this whole movement so what's the tabernacle? The tabernacle is God's presence on earth. What's the temple? God's presence on earth. What are the prophets?
Matt Brown:God's voice on earth. What are the miracles? God's power on earth. What is Jesus's name? Emmanuel.
Matt Brown:God with us where? On earth. What is the second coming? Christ returning to us on earth. And so this idea of the new earth is spoken of by Isaiah twice.
Matt Brown:It's spoken to us by Peter. It's spoken to us by the apostle Paul in Romans eight when he says all creation groans for the resurrection. All creation, heavens and the earth, everything's looking forward to this moment for God to remake the earth. You know, not only will will we be resurrected, but the earth will be resurrected, it will be completely changed, and it will be made new again. So Peter talks about the new heavens, the new earth.
Matt Brown:The book of Revelations, you know, chapter 22 is the last chapter. Chapter 21, he says, behold, I saw the new heavens and the new earth. Isaiah prophesied about this. So so think about in the New Testament, the three major players, John, Peter, and Paul. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:All three of them talk about the new earth. And so, you know, that's why people say, what am I gonna do in heaven forever? You're not gonna be in heaven forever. Heaven is a temporary place, and I don't mean that it's temporary in that it ceases to exist, but it's a temporary residence for us. But ultimately, what God is building in heaven is the new Jerusalem, and it doesn't stay there forever.
Matt Brown:Guess where it goes? To Earth. That's what Revelation 21 says is that the new Jerusalem comes from heaven
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And that's what this whole thing is moving. There's no longer a gap between heaven and earth. But God is with his people, and his people are with God. And that's the beauty of it. And so we this is why as Christians, we're not praying for the resurrection.
Matt Brown:You know, we all want life to not suck. We want people to not get sick. We want people not to die. And that's why we need to pray, Lord Jesus, come. The Lord's prayer, our father who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Matt Brown:You know, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. We are to pray for him to come. The Bible ends with, Lord Jesus, come. Come back. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And, you know, because even even our loved ones who've died and are in heaven, there's something even better coming. Something that's even greater coming, and that's the resurrection. And that's something that we will all share in together at once. We will all experience it. The church past, the church present, and the church future.
Matt Brown:We're all going to experience that moment together, you know, when Christ you know, the Bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first. Boom. And we will be caught up in the air with them. It's going to be incredible. And how can we be caught up in the air with him?
Matt Brown:Because our bodies will be like Jesus's, and he can fly.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, it's right? It Jesus fly, hover, float, whatever he's doing, we can do that too. Yeah. Because we have resurrected bodies just like Jesus, and that's the goal. You and I were designed to live on earth in a relationship with God where we walk with him, talk with him, and know him.
Matt Brown:And that's what we are to experience. But the earth is broken, and it's fallen, and it's diseased, and it sucks. Mhmm. And so we need to quit talking about heaven like it is the finished state. The finished state is the new heaven and the new earth, where the gap, the chasm between those two is no longer broken.
Matt Brown:But we are able to be with God, and God is able to be with us.
Justin Pardee:It's like that phrase, heaven on earth, you know? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about these resurrection bodies that you were just talking about. Because when Jesus comes back, when he resurrects Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:The his followers, they could eventually recognize him, but he also still had the scars in his hands and stuff. So what's going
Matt Brown:on there? Would say this. Yes, they could recognize him, but Jesus also seems to be able to manipulate his physical manifestation because they don't recognize him, then they do, then they don't, then they do. And so he is able in some way, I mean, word is to shape shift. Right?
Matt Brown:The resurrected body, the glorified body can do things. You know, he can both show them the holes in his hands, and somehow he is able to not be seen. It it it it it's truly amazing. I mean, his glorified body can do incredible things, absolutely amazing things. Let's think about this.
Matt Brown:So we're gonna talk about the resurrection. He was completely wrapped in a shroud. I don't if you guys ever see the Shroud of Tern. Have either of you guys seen that?
Justin Pardee:On Wikipedia.
Matt Brown:Okay. I saw it firsthand in Brasilia, which is the capital of Brazil in 1987. I'm telling you, it freaked me out. And so what the Shroud of Turin is, is there was a crucified person in this shroud. So think like a sleeping bag.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So it's put over the head of the person, and not as thick. But it's like a sleeping bag, maybe a cheap thin sleeping bag that's put over the head of the dead person, and then they're wrapped in this thing like a knapsack, like a potato sack.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So that, you know, if parts fall off erotifed, it's all in the bag Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:And
Matt Brown:decomposes together. But somehow, in some way, the Shroud of Turin, this body was heated up in such a way that it actually took a photograph of the corpse on the inside of this shroud, this this blanket. And then they flipped it and inverted it, and you can see it. And it's a bearded man with holes in his hands and his feet. Whether that's Jesus, I'm telling you, I I'll never forget it.
Matt Brown:I felt like I was in the presence of something. It was bizarre. So here's what his resurrected body did. It moved through his mummified garments. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:He trans he transported from inside the bag to outside the bag. Awesome. And that's why we'll talk about this when we get to when the when the disciples and Mary see the empty tomb. There's a couple words, Greek words for see. One is bleppo, which I always think is funny.
Matt Brown:One is theon, and I can't think of what the third major word is, but we'll get to that when we get to Luke twenty three and twenty four. But it's interesting that whenever Mary looks in the tomb, Peter looks in the tomb, John looks in the tomb, the word that is used for they saw that it was empty is theon, which is where we get the English word theory. Mhmm. So what does that tell us? They're trying to figure out what the heck happened.
Justin Pardee:Seemed like it was empty.
Matt Brown:Because how does a dead corpse inside a bag get outside the bag with the bag still laying there? Mhmm. Like, they're did they like, they don't they don't they can't it doesn't make any human sense. And thank God, it's it's not a human event. It's a supernatural event Mhmm.
Matt Brown:That occurred in human history. It's pretty cool. So his body is resurrected. And so this is what we all wanna experience. We wanna resurrected, glorified bodies.
Matt Brown:Paul talks about this repeatedly, and so they have all the texts over and over again. We look forward to our new body, our new body, our new body, our new body, because we're not made to be spirits. We're made to be embodied spirits. Our spirit lives in our body. This is who God has created us to be forever.
Matt Brown:You know, I'm gonna be a man forever. Stephanie's gonna be a woman forever. This is who we're going to be. And we're going to know each other in this way. You know, Jesus is still a man after he's resurrected, but somehow he's different.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. Okay. You talked about shape shifting, and all of our sci fi geek listeners who watch The Fringe are like freaking out with excitement right now. Yeah. So let's shift gears, and Stephanie, you do one for the Instagram girls.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So, when you talked about heaven in this weekend's message, you actually mentioned a lot of Isaiah 11, which I think is what you're talking about Yeah. Where Isaiah prophesies about, the new heaven, the new earth. And in verse six, says, in that day, the wolf and lamb will live together. The leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
Stephanie Schaefer:The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all.
Justin Pardee:That sounds like every Instagram caption I've ever seen hashtag cute. Yes.
Stephanie Schaefer:There's some really great videos out there. Anyway, so actually, Devina sent this question in and I have the same question which feels silly, but I also saw The Jungle Book this weekend, so it may be influencing me here. But in this new earth that we have, will we have different relationships with animals? Like, will I get to finally hang out with a lion like a pet?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. So if you go back to Genesis one, Adam names. One of the one of the jobs that he has is to name every animal on earth. And and we don't realize that, but in naming it, he has authority over it.
Matt Brown:And so Adam exercises authority over the creation. And so one of the things that we were made to do is we were made to rule and reign on earth. So we were to be God's kings and queens on earth, but sin screwed that up. And so again, what does Jesus tell to his disciples? You will rule and reign with me.
Matt Brown:And so we we're going to enter into that relationship again, where we're not at conflict with, you know, animal life, and not that, you know, all animal life is conflict. But if I'm in the water and a great white shark swims by and is hungry, or curious, right, it's going to eat me. But somehow, in some way, in the new heavens and the new earth, if there are great white sharks on the new earth, and we don't know, you know, because there does seem to indicate that there was from John's perspective, as he saw the new earth, he could not see see. So a part of that's because, you know, I don't know his perspective of as he saw the new Jerusalem, but it's massive. It's like the size of like Texas to Idaho.
Matt Brown:It's huge. The new Jerusalem, the city is absolutely massive. So yeah, I think we're gonna relate to animals in a very very different way. We're no longer going to be under the curse of sin. It's gonna be cool.
Justin Pardee:Hopefully, there's no snakes though. Right? Because literally Satan doing snakes, I don't see any redeeming qualities with those guys.
Matt Brown:Yeah. They might be there because there's some snake lovers. Mhmm. Yeah. You'll live in the city.
Matt Brown:Jerusalem.
Justin Pardee:Definitely definitely I will. Okay. So, now, we're gonna get to some little verses here at the end of Luke 20 where I I really have no idea what Jesus is talking about with the religious and Jewish leaders. In, verse 37, it goes like this, but now as to whether the dead will be raised, even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Justin Pardee:So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they're all alive to him. What's going what's going on here? Are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are they dead? Are they in heaven? Are they alive?
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. They're alive.
Justin Pardee:What is he talking about?
Matt Brown:You gotta go back to Genesis one when God breathes the breath of life into Adam. So, you know, God creates our bodies, and he breathes life into our bodies, and he animates our bodies. So as human beings, we are two things. We are both spirits and animated bodies. And so those two things work together.
Matt Brown:When we die, our body is in the ground. And so here's one of the things that Christians say that bothers me, is they say, when you go to my grave, I'm not there. I'm in heaven. But the reality is you're kinda in both places. Your body, which is a part of you and who you are and is essential.
Matt Brown:K? Your body's not evil, it's not ugly, it's not terrible, it is sinned. It it is a body of dishonor, but it will be redeemed. It's a part of the redemptive process of Christ. And so, you know, we need to care for our bodies, love our bodies, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Matt Brown:So we we need to care about that and treat them with respect and honor. This is why we don't just have sex with whoever we want. We don't do whatever we want to our bodies. We care for them because our bodies are a gift from God that is given to us, and God values our bodies so much that he's going to resurrect them and glorify them and transform them in some amazing way. So God's not done with your body, so you should honor it.
Matt Brown:So here's what I would say. A Isaac, Abraham or excuse me. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, can't say them out of order. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they are in heaven with God, and they are alive. Their spirits are alive.
Matt Brown:Now, you know, what they look like in heaven, you know, we don't know exactly. There's three theories. There's three Christian acceptable theories. One is that the the moment that you die, immediately you receive your resurrected body. And so Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would have resurrected bodies in heaven.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:Number two is there's a temporary covering that's given to them somehow, some way. And some people say body, some people say robes, white robes, whatever. There's some kind of temporary covering to give them because the apostle Paul says, I do not wanna be naked. He's talking about being in a bodiless bodiless state. That's not what we're supposed to be.
Matt Brown:And then number three, the idea is that we are all all those in heaven are alive in the spirit, their souls are alive, they're with Christ, they're in the presence of Christ, they're conscious, they're awake, but they wait for the resurrection to receive their body. The position that I hold, and I think the the position that's this the most clear in scripture, is that the resurrection day is for everyone, and we will all receive our bodies at the same moment. And so I don't think that you get your resurrection body when you die. I think that your spirit goes to heaven to be with Jesus as you await his second coming and you pray for a second coming. You're in paradise.
Matt Brown:You're you know, if if you're in Christ, you're in a wonderful place, but you still are longing and waiting for the return of Christ. Both those who are dead and in heaven are waiting for the return of Christ, and those on earth are to be praying for the return of Christ. That is the redemptive moment in human history. That is what we are all waiting for is the resurrection. And so now having said that, when Jesus has the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear, and somehow some way, the disciples are able to decipher, you know, Peter, James, and John are able to decipher that that's Elijah and that's Moses.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So what was that? I don't know.
Justin Pardee:Well, to be fair, I think Moses is always walking around in heaven with those two tablets. Remember?
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Was kind of a deal.
Matt Brown:Remember? I'm kind of a big deal. So know, don't know exactly what what that was, and it doesn't tell us did they have literal bodies. It just simply says that they appeared and they knew that it was him. And in that moment, the the emphasis is not on what Elijah and Moses looked like.
Matt Brown:The emphasis is on what Jesus looked like. Mhmm. He changed. So they were present, but Jesus changed. And his transformation was incredible.
Matt Brown:He was bright and as shining as the sun. So in that moment, all of a sudden, Christ's physical nature kinda disappears, and his eternal nature kinda jumps out. And and they're terrified. And then God speaks, this is my son. And it's just like, wow.
Justin Pardee:So So I I don't know if I kinda like that option number two that you're talking about, because I I really like the idea of like bathrobes and stuff, but I've never been able to get to him here. Like, I can't get into a nice bathrobe here in this on the the fallen earth.
Stephanie Schaefer:Can't. Well, like
Justin Pardee:It just doesn't work for me. No. It just doesn't work for me. So I'm I really like the idea of maybe in the new earth, a nice solid bathrobe. No.
Matt Brown:No. On the new earth, you'll have the Oh,
Justin Pardee:got it. So but if I die and go to heaven, maybe I can temporarily wear like a luxurious heavenly robe. Yeah. There you go. I'm into that.
Matt Brown:Right. And so and again, we're talking I mean, you're asking me questions that are theoretical. We don't know. But Paul seems to indicate pretty clearly in second Corinthians that his desire is to experience the resurrection. That's what we all wanna we all wanna be a part of that, in chain being changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Matt Brown:To go from a mortal body to an immortal body, to go from a dishonorable body to an honorable body, from imperishable or from perishable imperishable. He that those people that get to experience that are blessed. Mhmm. But those who are dead will not miss out first because the Bible says they will rise first. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And and we will all be caught up with him to meet him in the air.
Justin Pardee:Heavenly cloth talk. Back to, Stephanie, the Bible there.
Stephanie Schaefer:So this chapter wraps up with now Jesus asking a question. He starts off with quoting, one of the Psalms. He says, for David himself wrote in the book of Psalms, the Lord said to my Lord, sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet. Then Jesus says, since David called the Messiah Lord, how can the Messiah be his son? So when I read the Psalm, I would not know that David was talking about Jesus.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm. How can we tell when there are places in the Old Testament where it's directly referencing the Messiah or Jesus? How do we know that, or how
Matt Brown:do we
Justin Pardee:know if
Matt Brown:it's Old Testament? Way is the New Testament tells us.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So the New Testament will identify those passages that were specifically speaking to Jesus. But the New Testament is not gonna identify all of them, because Jesus says all of the Old Testament is about me. So he's he's there he's there throughout it. So it's all about him, But there are specific passages where it says but what's interesting here is they never thought about that because David calls his son my lord, and that doesn't make any sense. Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So how can that be? And so Hebrews, the author of Hebrews in in Hebrews chapter one, uses the very same argument to tell us that Jesus is above Moses because he was above David. He's above angels. He's above everything. Why?
Matt Brown:Because he's God's son. He is God himself, and this is something that's incredible and something that's awesome. And so because, you know, the sadducees, right, for everything they knew about the scripture, the pharisees, everything they knew about the scripture, they didn't get it all. And and and let's just say this, we're not either. We're not gonna understand it all.
Matt Brown:And that's what's so sad. You know, even people listening to this, you know, I think back to the guy whose question was, you know, are you gap theory or what? We're always looking for questions to divide us. Mhmm. And the answer is, man, we're all gonna be wrong on something when we get there.
Matt Brown:We're not gonna figure this thing out completely. The apostle Paul says, we see things now through a dimly lit mirror. We're doing the best we can, but you know, it doesn't we can't know everything exactly. Right. And so, know, there's gonna be some things where I had some ideas, I'm gonna get up there and be like, oh, okay, I was wrong.
Matt Brown:So we just have to embrace that and just know that we're gonna miss something.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:So just don't miss the big things. The only way you can be saved is by repentance and placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Don't miss that. There's no other
Justin Pardee:way. Deal.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Down.
Justin Pardee:Excellent. Well, this was awesome. Luke 20 was jam packed with goodness. And I loved opening up with all that follow-up questions. So if you guys have questions that have come up from this, if you got anything specific you're wondering about, please send in those questions.
Justin Pardee:You can, send them to us at sandals search dot com slash the debrief or we've also added our new The Debrief page on Facebook. So you can find us there. Just trying to make it easy as possible for you guys to follow the show and, get your questions in. So if you're not liking us yet on Facebook, definitely search for us and look us up.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I'm sure they're liking us. Yeah. Let me close one thought. So, know, as you share some of the things that we've just talked about with some of your Christian friends, even some of your friends who are pastors, and I hate to say this, even professors.
Matt Brown:There's a lot of confusion on this subject because it's just not studied. They just don't study it. And so, you know, there's a lot of confusion with talking about heaven, and what they're really talking about is the new earth.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so there are specific passages in Isaiah, Isaiah 60 that that talk about the return of Christ, and he's clearly on earth. All the nations bring their wheat, they bring their cattle, they bring, you know, all of the things that they've worked for, and they're bringing it to Jerusalem to worship God. And so but and that's on the new earth. Mhmm. And and and they just it's it's really really sad.
Matt Brown:But I I've seen pastors that have, you know, taught for a long time, and they're not clear on this subject. And so just, know, don't go brow beating people over the head with this, but this is the teaching of scripture. Mhmm. This is what the bible teaches. You know, we're gonna go to heaven for a period of time until Christ returns to rule and reign on earth.
Matt Brown:He is to be our king. And part of the reason that the Jews missed Jesus is their assumption was that the Messiah would come and rule physically on earth.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And he will. But he first came to save. So he came as the lamb, and he will return as the lion. And so they just got it out of order. And so as Christians, we forget that, that he's going to come here, and he's going to rule here, and he's gonna reign here, and the new earth is going to be awesome.
Matt Brown:It is going to be free of sin, death, and sickness.
Stephanie Schaefer:So for folks who maybe would love to like read more on this, you mentioned Isaiah 60. What are some other chapters or any books in the Bible that people could read to maybe start to understand this?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Isaiah is the best book in the Old Testament. So Isaiah 11, Isaiah 60. Let's see. Isaiah talks about the new heavens and the new earth in Isaiah 66, twice in Isaiah sixty six seventeen, Isaiah sixty six twenty two.
Matt Brown:Second Peter talks about the new heavens and new earth, Revelations 21, which we studied. Romans eight, though, I think is the best place to go for kind of an overarching view of what God is doing, and where he talks about all creation moans and groans. And and and I think it's talking about how everything is going to change, and it's going to be incredible. It's going to be awesome. Because Jesus Christ didn't just come to save us, he came to save all creation.
Matt Brown:Because he is the author of all creation. Colossians says he created and designed all things. And for those who struggle, you know, how's my how's my body gonna rise from the dead? Listen. How did God make the first one?
Matt Brown:Mhmm. I mean, you're you're talking about someone who can do anything. Nothing is impossible, Jesus says, God. Nothing is impossible. And he created the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything in it, and he can do anything.
Matt Brown:We have no idea how powerful God is.
Justin Pardee:Well, speaking of impossibilities, it's time to close the show. Because here on this broken earth, sometimes we need a little inspiration, a little motivation. Stephanie, will you close us out with an inspirational thought and then pastor Matt, give us some great.
Matt Brown:Yes.
Stephanie Schaefer:Oddly enough, we picked this one out ahead of time. Nothing is impossible. The word itself says, I'm possible. I
Matt Brown:don't know where you guys get that.
Stephanie Schaefer:The Internet. It's a beautiful place.
Matt Brown:Lots of things are impossible from our perspective. Nothing is impossible from God's perspective. So I don't like the idea that people can do anything because I don't think that's true. I think that actually makes people very depressed. Like, I can't make an NBA basketball team.
Matt Brown:It cannot happen.
Stephanie Schaefer:Oh, I believe in you.
Matt Brown:Thank you. But that's silly. Yeah. That's silly. Yeah.
Matt Brown:The only the only way I'm making an NBA basketball team is if God transforms my lonely body into a glorious body.
Justin Pardee:I wish our listeners could have seen your face when you just like pause to receive like to say thank you. Was like you were so touched when Stephanie believed in you.
Matt Brown:Yeah. We say the stupidest things to people when we when we tell someone they can do anything. That's like lying.
Justin Pardee:You can do anything kids.
Stephanie Schaefer:So that was not his face of like, oh, believes me. Was, oh, she just lied straight to my face.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Because people can't every single human being has a limited set of abilities, skills, and experiences. And happiness is not doing anything. Happiness is is accepting your abilities, your skills, you know, your brain capacity and serving God within that context. But you know, people that are miserable, like what if I believe I can make the worship team?
Matt Brown:It's gonna be horrible. We
Stephanie Schaefer:may not turn your mic on,
Justin Pardee:but Yeah. Write write that on a napkin and stuff in your kid's lunchbox. He's gonna appreciate that. Sorry kid,
Matt Brown:nothing No. What I would say is you can do amazing things with your abilities, your gifts, and your talents as you submit them to God. You can do amazing things. A nice
Stephanie Schaefer:little printable.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Somebody put that on his hand. Oh, printable, dude. Yeah. Let's get
Matt Brown:that you can do amazing things, but you cannot do ever anything.
Justin Pardee:Oh. Yeah. Exactly. That could that we cannot just do a printable of that, it could be an actual card. One of the outside says, you can do amazing things.
Justin Pardee:Open it up, you cannot do everything. Love, Pastor Matt. Yeah.
Matt Brown:I'm feeling good like you knew I would. Let me hear you scream and shout.