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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson:
Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. My name is Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my friend and my co-host for today's episode, Madi Vincent.
Madi Vincent:
Hi, Kaley. How are you?
Kaley Olson:
I'm good. How are you, Madi?
Madi Vincent:
Great.
Kaley Olson:
Great. OK, so that's ... We are here because our friends are about to hear a conversation that we just had with Dr. Joel Muddamalle where he helps us understand why we, as humans, can sometimes have this “A plus B always equals C” mentality when it comes to our actions and consequences.
Madi Vincent:
Or sometimes we wonder: Why do bad things happen to good people?
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. And maybe we don't say things like "I have an A plus B equals C mentality" in everyday conversations, or maybe we don't walk around saying, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" … but these are things that we wonder, especially whenever, in life, we're going through something hard. So I'm excited about this conversation today because what you guys are really about to hear is a deep dive on the topic that we found out is called “retribution theology” — which is a mouthful, right, Madi?
Madi Vincent:
Do not let that scare you.
Kaley Olson:
I know, I know. Don't let it scare you. We were kind of scared at first. But the good thing about Joel is that he does get pretty scholarly — that's what he does and what he's supposed to do; he's supposed to help us understand the Bible — but Madi and I are here to serve as your average, everyday people and ask the questions we think you might have when it comes to this topic.
Madi Vincent:
This podcast episode is really going to give you a lot to consider. We don't want to tell you what to think. We just want to give you a lot to think about.
For those of you who are note takers, I'm so excited to let you know that we partnered with Joel to create a free downloadable resource you can access in the show notes below. This resource will go into a bit more detail about what we will discuss today, and it includes additional questions and Scripture references all in one place.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. And, Madi, whenever you and our content team work on resources like this with Joel, we're not just creating something that's got Scripture references for you to go back to. We know that you guys listening to this are probably going to have a lot of questions. And there might be a lot that you're wrestling with … where maybe you want to go back to this episode and listen to it again. Or you want a place to process through what the Lord is trying to work out of you, or work in you, as you listen to something like this. So this resource is exactly that, and it's free, and it's amazing.
But, Madi, enough from us. I think that they should go hear our conversation with Joel, right?
Madi Vincent:
Exactly.
Kaley Olson:
All right, let's head in.
OK, guys. Welcome to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson. I'm here with my co-host, Madi Vincent.
Madi Vincent:
I love being here. I'm glad to be back.
Kaley Olson:
I love that you're here. But can I also say … soon to be Madi Greenfield. She's getting married!
Madi Vincent:
You guys, the countdown is on. I'm getting married in, like, three weeks.
Kaley Olson:
It's like we're living in the already-but-not-yet of your marriage. Because when we're recording this, you're not [married]. But when we release it, you will be.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Oh, wow. I didn't know that.
Kaley Olson:
I know.
Madi Vincent:
I didn't know that, either.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's wild.
Kaley Olson:
I know.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So should we say “Greenfield” now?
Madi Vincent:
I don't know. We'll figure it out.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This is going to be wild.
Madi Vincent:
We'll figure it out, but … wild.
Kaley Olson:
We're also here with Joel — Dr. Joel Muddamalle, our resident theologian here. And I'm excited to be on the show with you guys today. But, Madi, I would love for you to introduce our topic for today.
Madi Vincent:
Yes. OK. So the other day, we were at the office talking … and a lot of the more interesting things that we make content about usually stem from really great conversations that we have just as a staff here at the office. And we were discussing kind of this view of God as a vending machine, like, If I do X, Y and Z, I will receive what I want. So just kind of this idea: What do I have to do to get God to give me what I want?" Or that kind of feeling of regret: If I had only done something differently, God would have given me this or done something differently in my life. And as we were kind of talking about this, I realized there is a term called “retributional theology.”
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Wow.
Kaley Olson:
That's a very big —
Madi Vincent:
Did I say that correctly?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
OK, scholar Madi.
Madi Vincent:
Thank you.
Kaley Olson:
This is why Joel is on the show today.
Madi Vincent:
And I had a lot of questions about it.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Madi Vincent:
So here we are with Kaley and Joel, and we're going to dig a little bit deeper into this mindset of God being a vending machine and the way we act really determining what we get from God.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, and that's great. So I think the first thing everybody's probably wondering … [What is] retributional theology?
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Can you please explain this term to me like I am a fourth grader?
Madi Vincent:
Like I'm a 5-year-old.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I actually want to start ... I want to take a little step back. [To Madi:] Like you're a what?
Madi Vincent:
A 5-year-old.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
A 5-year-old. And you said what, [Kaley]?
Kaley Olson:
I said “fourth grader.”
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Fourth grader. That's —
Madi Vincent:
I need it dumbed down a little bit more.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's also a pretty wide gap between a fourth grader —
Kaley Olson:
We'll let you know if we have more questions after you explain.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
OK, good. But I would say this ... Let's take a step back from retributional theology. Oftentimes what happens is we say a word like this and we get disconnected or we get turned off. Because we're like, Wow, here's some massive theological concept that is so unrelatable and out of touch for all of us as human beings. But what I want us to actually see is that this concept is actually something that is incredibly appealing to all of us.
Madi Vincent:
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And here's why it makes sense: Let me just start this way. It makes sense for a person to do something really, really good and then for that person to receive a reward for that good thing. Because C.S. Lewis referred to it this way … as humanity having a moral compass built into the human heart. So in a way, God has created us innately to know what is right and what is wrong.
And part of that is like … Hey, if you do really, really good things, then of course good things should then follow your actions. And if you're wicked and you do really bad things and you're conniving and manipulative and deceitful, it really makes sense that bad things should then follow the course of your bad actions. It's like my kids at home. When they do their dishes and when they clean the house and they do all of these things, they're looking at us like, "Hey, can we have dessert tonight?" And I'm like, “Why do you think, just because you did what you should normally do as a productive human being in our household, that you should get ice cream tonight?" But embedded into their hearts, is like, “Well, no, I did something good. We were responsible, so we should be rewarded for that."
So take that just basic impulse of the human heart, and now let's talk about retributional theology. This is one of those things that's so fascinating — there's really nothing new underneath the sun, and it is part of the miracle of Scripture that Scripture is relatable across centuries. So in the Ancient Near Eastern world ... When we say “Ancient Near Eastern,” we're talking about the Old Testament in the geographical area of Mesopotamia and that region — Egypt, the Crescent, all that — OK? They had this concept called “retributional theology,” which basically meant that [they believed] the way that God related to humanity was based off of their moral behavior. So if you were an individual who was morally upright, morally good, well, then God (or in the polytheistic world, the gods) would then give to you something positive. And if you did something super negative and evil and you were conniving, and you woke up one day and you had cancer, or you woke up one day and you looked out into your fields and a storm came and destroyed all of your fields, that was evidence that, hey, you kind of got what was coming to you.
So retributional theology is really this concept: If I could just super simplify it, it's that good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people. And if you're a good person and bad things happen to you, then you better check yourself because you probably did something bad. And until you figure out that bad and how to correct that bad, God is going to continue to do bad things to you or allow bad things to take place.
Madi Vincent:
Yeah, but it falls apart a little bit when bad things happen to good people. And then it falls apart again when good things happen to people who … You see their actions and you're like, Wait, what? Why are they getting this huge blessing when I see how they're acting in other places?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Kaley Olson:
So in our life though … I feel like what we did was just normalize the term "retributional theology." Even though I would never go around and say that this is the view of theology that I have — I don't even really know how you would say that in a sentence, with "retributional theology" as an action word —what I really want to know from you, Joel, is: How does this play out in my life? How might I be able to identify that this is a mindset that I have taken on as a view of God? What are some actions that I might be doing consistently?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So I want to … Again, I'm just so sensitive to the fact that this isn't ... What comes next isn't supposed to be condemning in any way. In fact, our mutual friend Jim Cress [a Licensed Professional Counselor] talks about narcissism, and we’ve talked about NPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Jim is so brilliant because he always points out that it is clinically proven that every human has some narcissistic tendencies built into them. So there's a vast difference between having a narcissistic tendency versus having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They're totally different. So again, I'm going to kind of take the same principle and apply it here. There may be things that we kind of naturally do because, in a fallen world, it kind of just makes sense for us to want to do it. And the good news is that Scripture gives us a little bit of course correction.
So here are a couple of things, and I'm going to give it another term. It's called “moralistic therapeutic deism.” Woo. That's a big one, right? “Moralistic,” that's kind of like our morals. “Therapeutic,” that [comes from the] Greek word therapeuo, meaning "to heal" or "to cure." So moral, curing ... “Deism” deals with the deity: God. So it's the idea that God would bring healing, or curing, to humanity through our moralism, through our morality. So with that in mind, we might think that if we just stop [doing what is immoral] ...
[For example, let’s say] you might have a problem with cussing. You're a cusser. You’ve got filthy words that come out your mouth.
Kaley Olson:
Which one of us are you making eye contact with in this moment? [Laughter.]
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Neither. If you noticed, I looked at both of you, and then I thought, I might look at those ... I don't know what those things are, but I'm going to look at them because they're inanimate objects, and I can't get in trouble. So yeah, let's just say hypothetically there's a person, and they're your friend, and they'd be cussing, just lots of cussing. And things are going wrong for them consistently. And they wake up in the middle of the night: You know what? I shouldn't be cussing. I feel convicted. So they start praying, like, Lord, help me not to cuss. I want only wholesome things to come out of my mouth, whatever it might be.
OK, great. A couple days go by, and things are still whack and wild in their life. It did not get better. But notice the pattern that we had. We identified something that we were doing that was sinful in our life. We thought, Maybe if I pray, confess, and then ask God to help me not do that thing anymore, that [bad] thing will then go away. So you go through the action of it, and then you find out, Oh, it didn't go away. So then how does it go?
Here's another one. And often what happens actually is that we take spiritual ... This is going to feel aggressive, but just follow me: We take spiritual disciplines, and we weaponize them for moralistic gains.
Kaley Olson:
OK.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Something like fasting. Huh? [But we may think,] I can maybe spiritually manipulate God in order to gain me whatever it is that I want. Maybe it's a big promotion that you're looking to get, and you're like, Oh, I really want to do all the right things in order to make sure that God shows favor upon me. So I'm going to do a Daniel fast or a juice fast … or whatever fast it might be. So it's a type of manipulation. You're taking a spiritual discipline that's super important, like fasting, prayer, reading God's Word — all these things are very important, but if we try to weaponize them in order to spiritually manipulate God to cause good to happen to us, it's evidence of a mindset that is falling into this ancient concept that bad things happen to bad people, and good things happen to good people. So if you're a good person, and bad things are happening to you, figure out how you can spiritually manipulate God in order to forgive the bad thing that you did, in order for good things to happen.
Kaley Olson:
That's so interesting. But I feel like what's confusing about this to me, Joel, is I feel like it's easy for Christians to fall into this retribution theology or moralistic ... What is the word?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Moralistic therapeutic deism.
Kaley Olson:
What you just said. Because when we look at the book of Proverbs ... I read a verse the other morning in my Bible reading plan, and Proverbs 14:14 says, "The disloyal one will get what his conduct deserves, and a good one, what his deeds deserves" (CSB). And it's so interesting to look at a book like Proverbs and think, This is God's Word. So that’s that. But then there's also what you just talked about: the idea that we can't manipulate God and take things in our own hands. So let's go there. When do we take this too far, and what does that look like? You just talked about manipulating spiritual disciplines. So let's go there a little bit further.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This is a big one. When I teach hermeneutics classes ... “Hermeneutics” is just the word that's used to describe our method of studying the Bible. So let's just do a quick exercise for you. Let's say that you have a favorite book. I'm going to stick with Tolkien because I'm a Tolkien nerd. So let's say Lord of the Rings. And if I handed you Lord of the Rings — Mads, [let’s say] I handed you Lord of the Rings and I said, "Hey, I'm really excited. I want you to read this book. This book is historical biography." I gave you the category of historical biography. And if you opened it up and all of a sudden there were elves, there were dwarfs, there is —
Kaley Olson:
So crazy.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Saruman. There's a wild ring that is in control of all these ... Right? There are halflings. What is this hobbit situation? And you're like, "Historical biography? How do I read this?" So what's happened is you've taken words [in the novel] that were intended to be understood in one way, and you imposed a totally different way of understanding it. And when that happens, it's chaotic. Right?
Madi Vincent:
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So let's go to the book of Proverbs. When somebody hands you, or you open up, Proverbs — and I've got a friend right now who’s reading a proverb a day — are we supposed to read proverbs as if they are literal? A plus B equals C? Or are we supposed to read them as proverbial, meaning they have policies of generally right behavior with generally the consequences that come with right behavior, then generally evil behavior and generally the consequences that come with evil behavior? Well, I would say the second category. But often what we do is we read Proverbs and want to impose a literal category. And again, I'm just saying it makes sense to a human mind that just wants A plus B to always equal C. And the second that A plus B does not equal C, our world goes upside down. We feel unstable. We feel like everything is out of whack, and we do everything we can to try to make sense of it.
So this is what's happening with Proverbs. So Proverbs is telling us ... Imagine sitting down with your grandparents, and they always have these wise things that they say. When I was in India late last year, I sat down with my grandfather, and he would just be saying these wise sayings. And I'm writing them down as much as I can. Now, am I supposed to believe that everything that he says is literal fact, that if I do this thing that's [what will happen every time?] I'm like, "No." We just know that, in general, there's this wisdom of living your life in this type of way, and typically good things may happen as a result of it. And if bad things happen, I don't go to my grandfather and be like, "You liar!" I'm not like, "You were horrible. I can't believe you said that." You go, "Oh, no. There are consequences in a fallen world where these situations sometimes don't come true."
So in the book of Proverbs, and if you're looking at different scriptures in the Bible, and you're like, Wait a minute. But the Bible says this. It says that if I pray, or if I ... What was that verse that you just read?
Kaley Olson:
Proverbs 14:14.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Kaley Olson:
"The disloyal one will get what his conduct deserves ..." (CSB).
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, loyalty.
Kaley Olson:
"… and a good one, what his deeds deserves" (CSB).
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, loyalty. This is a big one. Loyalty, the disloyal … so this is an honor/shame society. So if you are loyal, the other ... I'll translate it into Greek. The Greek word pistis is "faith." It can also be [translated] "allegiance." If your allegiance is proper, then proper things are going to happen. But if you're not allegiant, if you're disloyal, well, what's the consequence of disloyalty? So you've got this principle that's kind of driving this.
Madi Vincent:
Yeah. So what you're saying is there are natural consequences to how we live our lives, but we don't have the power or control to manipulate God in a way that will always get what we want based on our actions.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, absolutely. And just imagine — just run that logic. If you could manipulate God, is God still God? Or is God just a supernatural being that can be manipulated and used at the whim of human hands? And now we go into the world of sorcery and witchcraft and all kinds of malevolent, kind of dark things. And all throughout Scripture — Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 32:8-9, the Shema, Exodus — you’ve got all these passages of Scripture (I think it’s Leviticus 19, too) where God's like, "Don't participate in those things." Why? Because those things lead you down a road where you actually are conned into believing that you can actually manipulate the supernatural world, that you can manipulate God, and you can't. God is sovereign. So the big phrase here is that God is not the created, and you and I are not the creators. And we have to remember that Creator-creation distinction. Otherwise, it's going to cause havoc in our lives.
And we have to go back to Genesis 3, when sin entered into the world ... There's a theologian, Alvin Plantinga, who refers to it as “despoiling shalom.” There are thousands of strands that connect humanity and creation and all of us together, and when sin enters in, those thousands of strands are ruptured. And when those things are ruptured, it creates instability in creation. So what is Jesus doing? He's actually reconnecting all those strands together. And Jesus does it on His own terms. He doesn't ... He takes, for sure, humanity into consideration. But when He thinks about what's best for humanity, He's thinking about what's best through the lens of perfection, not through the momentary perspective that you and I have, which is incredibly limited compared to His limitless vision of eternity past, present and future.
Kaley Olson:
But isn't that the lens that we as humans have, though? The moment is always so focused on us. And I think it's so easy to slip into a “me” mindset instead of thinking about God and the bigger picture that He is working all things for good (Romans 8:28). But whenever we think about ourselves, I don't think that I wake up in the morning and say "I'm going to focus on my self-preservation today" or "I'm going to focus on my success today. I'm going to make this about me." I think it sneaks up through maybe some things that we read or things that we're exposed to. And the theology is kind of flipped to, "Well, what can I control?" For example, [we think,] I have to earn my good standing with God. It's all up to me.
So can you talk a little bit about maybe how does that play out in our lives? What's wrong about that? What are some other things that we might be doing, or that I might be doing, on a daily basis that are sneaking up, and I don't realize that the focus is being put back on me and what I control?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Well, the question itself is super important, the way that you posed it. Let's legitimately, honestly answer that question: Is there anything that you and I can do to earn good standing in front of a righteous God?
Kaley Olson:
I know that —
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Kaley Olson:
— but a lot of times, I don't live it.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Right.
Kaley Olson:
Because I'm a type-A personality. I am equation-based kind of person. I feel like, If I do this, surely God will do this.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. So all you have to do is read Exodus through Malachi. From the delivering of the Ten Commandments of the law to the 200 years of ... They call it 200 years of silence [from God]. There's actually a lot of writing that's happening in the intertestamental period, but I'm not going to get nerdy with you about all of that. But in the 200 years of silence, what's actually happening? Well, Israel had tried, to the best of their ability, to live out the law to perfection. And they were unable. The sacrifices kept coming, the foreign empires kept destroying them, and they were desperately in need of a savior. They were in need of the Messiah, the Anointed One. Well, who's the Messiah? It's Jesus.
So again, I think what we have to do really, from a practical standpoint, is do a theology of remembrance. We have to recall the reality of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and (I always include) ascension. It's these four parts. Because it's those truths that Jesus did die for us, that He was buried — it was a legitimate death — that He did conquer death through death, that He rose again and then He was seated at the right hand of the Father in the ascension … That makes it possible for you and me to have standing with God.
So notice the proposition here: It's not first about me. I want to be careful — I'm not saying this is self-dejection. All I'm saying is that it doesn't start with me. And actually, this is incredibly more valuable. Why? Because if it starts with Jesus, then everything that is true about Jesus is then true about me. And if everything that's true about Jesus is true about me, y'all, that is so much more helpful. That is so much more beautiful. That is so much more powerful than just me trying to earn something on my own means. So we have to just consistently recall this theology of remembrance.
I always wonder: Of all the things that Jesus gives to His disciples and to us today, of what we ought to remember Him by, He chooses the crucifixion. If I [were] Jesus, I [would be] like, "Listen, I'm going to pick feeding the 5,000, maybe when I walked on the water, even the ascension. Like, hey, pay attention to Me right now as I go into the heavens. That's what I want you [to remember] ..." And Jesus refuses. He says, "No. I want you to remember the bread that's broken in remembrance of My body. The wine that you drink, the cup, in remembrance of My blood that was spilled."
This is a recollection of the crucifixion. Why? I think it's to embed a deep sense of humility in the hearts of humanity. It's so that you and I can consistently be reminded first and foremost of who God is, what He's done for you and me, so that we can know how we relate to God, that we are children of God who He loves. And if we know who God is and we know who we are in light of who God is, we can know how we ought to rightly relate to humanity.
Kaley Olson:
Wow.
Madi Vincent:
Wow. I'm thinking about the people listening to this, and I'm thinking about someone who's carrying the weight of their past sins or their past choices. And they're carrying the weight that they have to right those things to be in [good] standing with God. And how [instead of trusting in] retributional theology, having a better understanding of who God is and having a right view of who God is [in Christ] takes that weight away. And this isn't just a theological term that has nothing to do with how we live our day-to-day lives. This is actually a really freeing perspective — for the person listening to this who is carrying that weight, I want to encourage you: We look to Jesus. You don't have to carry it anymore. We can look to Jesus. And that is maybe the best thing that you could hear today.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. And I would just add to that ... And you brought it up, Madi, really well, that there are consequences to our sins. There are natural things that we have to deal with. Right now, there's a really famous basketball player who’s dealing with some consequences of his actions on social media and all this stuff. The reality of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and ascension is still true for him. It's still true for you. If you're carrying [sin], like, Man, I did this thing. And it's a weight that's on my heart ... that cleansing, that forgiveness, it is available to you today. And [at the same time] there are real consequences to our actions.
So the promise of Scripture — I think this is super important — is not that we are magically no longer going to deal with the consequences. It's actually something more important. It's that the presence of Jesus will be with us as we walk through those consequences, as we walk through those realities, as we deal with those pains and with those hardships. So, again, it consistently goes back to Christ with us in the midst of it.
So if you're listening to this and you're like, Man, I've held on to this thing, and I've done something, or I've hurt somebody, and that really ... and you're just suffering with the weight of that on your heart, I just want to point you to the cross. Remember that when Jesus was on the cross, there's a reason why the physical reality of that day matched the spiritual reality. The world turned dark. Why? Because Jesus bore the sin of past, present and future. This is a powerful imagery to the reality of what's happening spiritually that Jesus dealt with, which means that He has handled and He has taken care of the supernatural, eternal consequence of that action. And He's going to walk with you faithfully as a friend, as an older brother, as you walk through what the consequences of those things might be on this side of eternity.
Kaley Olson:
Well, I think, too, there are the things that we do that we deserve consequences for … but then a lot of times, there’s this whole idea of, Well, I didn't do anything [wrong], but I'm still walking through this.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, especially when it's other people’s stuff —
Kaley Olson:
Like, it’s hard. We can look at the whole Book of Job. We read that, and we're like, "He didn't do anything [wrong]. Yet look at what happened."
Madi Vincent:
Or even worse, his friends were saying, "What did you do? This isn't right."
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
His friends are knuckleheads. Let's just go there. And then —
Kaley Olson:
That's a theological term I can get behind.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And let's all remember: We are those friends. So the minute that we laugh, like, "Yeah, they are ..." We're like, "Oh yeah, and that's us too." And I like to bring a little bit of humor but also some empathy to the friends because they were just trying to make sense of this. They were living within a framework that they can only understand [things a certain way]. So they were just like, "Dude, I think there's ..." It started in a place of … “Even if you have to make up a sin [to confess], make it up. This is wild. You need to get out of this situation."
And yet I think what is so powerful about the story of Job, and we know from what's happening in the opening scenes that Job [was righteous] ... Here's what's so insane: Job never finds out. God is never, at any point that we're told about in the narrative, coming to Job like, "Hey, by the way, I had this wild conversation with the adversary in the divine council in the early pages of this book. You didn't know about it. But just to let you know, dude, you're totally innocent, bro. In fact, I picked the fight. I put you on the stage, the supernatural stage of good and evil. And, hey, good news — you got an A-minus." (He gets the minus because he did get humanly emotional. But he never rejected God.)
But Job never gets that [explanation]. He never gets that, in his humanity. What he gets consistently throughout the book of Job is this willful intentionality of God to be like, "Hey, you keep asking why — I'm going to show you who."
Madi Vincent:
Wow.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
You keep asking why …
Kaley Olson:
That's so good.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
… I'm going to show you the who behind the why. And I think this is really important because we want more … You know there's a phrase, "The more money, the more problems" — you've heard of that before, right?
Madi Vincent:
Yes, I've heard it.
Kaley Olson:
It usually phrased, "Mo' money, mo' problems."
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, "The mo' money, mo' problems," right. I think the more knowledge, the more questions. The more knowledge, the more questions. And we want more knowledge. We're desperate for more knowledge. It's unbelievable. In my Ph.D. process, I thought at the end of it I'd be like, "There's nothing more to learn." Heck no. I've got endless ... I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Every new book [I read], there's more questions that come up.” I actually think God was protecting Job in this. He was protecting him, like, "You can ask. I could give you all the answers to all your questions, but it's just going to open up a whole litany of more questions. What you need is not necessarily the answer to the questions but the One who authors all those questions."
Madi Vincent:
Yeah. So we try to make things that happen into an equation because we're really just trying to answer the question of “why.” That's kind of what it boils down to, isn't it?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yep.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. But at the end of the day, I look at what I've been through or what you've been through in your life, and if I actually got an answer to my question, would that really help me?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Probably not.
Kaley Olson:
Probably not.
Madi Vincent:
Yeah.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. So this idea of retributional theology is really us just trying to make sense of what God is doing when we know that we could never do it.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. It's a helpful ... It's like the friends, Job's friends. It's a framework to help us make sense of a senseless world. And again, just like how God does with Job, it's not that it's wrong to ask the questions, but we have to temper the asking of the questions with, at some point, [recognizing that] our finite minds cannot comprehend [everything], and we need humility to be able to accept that reality. And when we hit that, [then we learn] to turn to a loving God who's going to continuously show us more of who He is in those moments when we don't have answers.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, so good.
Madi Vincent:
Wow. Well, if you are listening to this, and you're like, OK, I need to remember all these theological terms that Joel used, and I really kind of want to process this more … we've created a free resource for you. And what's so great about this resource is there's going to be questions to kind of help you process how this might take shape in your life. It'll be in the show notes, so go ahead and check it out.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, perfect.
Madi Vincent:
Thank you, Joel, for helping put us that together.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This was fun.
Kaley Olson:
It was fun. But I also just want to end on this. We talk about these types of topics, like retributional theology, not because we know everything about everything here at Proverbs 31. We just want to give you something to consider and give you a lot to think about. And we also admit we're right here with you in learning what this is. And we are right here with you guys in all having fought through our own battles, and we’re still working through a lot of the questions that we have. We’re all fighting that mindset of thinking, This is an equation, or some [outcome] that I deserve because of something that I did. And I think it's a daily laying down of all the things that my human mind is trying to make sense of and instead remembering, like you said, Joel, the who. We focus on who God is before we try to look for an answer. So, guys, thank you so much for joining us, and that's all for today.
OK, Madi, what a conversation, right? Man, that was a lot, but it was really good.
Madi Vincent:
Oh, I learned so much. I'm really thankful for Joel and his wisdom and also just grace and compassion for just fighting for the average, everyday scholar to really understand theology like this.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah, for sure. That's what I love about what we do here at Proverbs 31. But I do remember that resource that you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, the free download from Joel that we talked about. I know I'm going to need that, and I'm sure our friends will too. So, guys, do yourself a favor and click below in the show notes to download a free copy for yourself as you work through what you just heard.
Madi Vincent:
In this episode, we touched a bit on Job and how his suffering seemed unjust. Maybe there's someone listening to this who feels like they're in a similar season of suffering, and they're just questioning where God is and what purpose this season is serving. We wanted to let you know that we've linked a digital study guide for the book of Job in the show notes below. It's called When the Hurt Feels Hopeless: How God Meets Us in Our Pain Even When We Don't Know the Answers. Maybe connecting with God and studying His Word has felt really difficult in this season. If so, we hope this digital study guide blesses you.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. I hope it does too. It's such a great study guide. And, guys, if this podcast has helped you in some way today, we would love to know. So please visit our podcast show on Apple Podcasts and leave us a review to let us know how this helped you. As always, thank you so much for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. We believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything. We'll see you next time.