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Evolved Radio Podcast: Interviews with technology experts, industry thought leaders, business leaders and other interesting minds. Exploring the evolution of business and technology.
Brian Gillette took his first
MSP job as VP of sales and
had to ask what MRR stood for.
Three years later, that company
had grown from about 700K to over 2
million in recurring revenue, and he
did it without a marketing budget.
MSPs, he was an actor in LA, which
is where he learned to hear "no"
at auditions after audition and
kept his self-worth out of it.
Today, he runs Feelgood MSP, hosts
the MSP Sales Podcast, and wrote
How to Sell a Shitload of Managed
Services Without Selling Your Soul.
His approach, the Feelgood Close, is
built for technical owners who hate
the idea of being a salesperson.
talking about why fear-based selling
stopped working for MSPs and what
replaced it when the person running the
process would rather be fixing a server.
Brian, welcome to the
Evolved Radio Podcast.
Thanks, Todd.
I'm, uh, very honored
and excited to be here
I'm glad to have you.
Uh, I, I mean, obviously I know
you in the industry and have, uh,
sent, sent some, some people your
way as well, heard great things.
But I saw you on the stage at ScaleCon,
and there was a, a whole series of
things that I was like, "Oh, damn,
I gotta have Brian on the podcast."
So, uh, this is gonna be great.
Um, I love a lot of your takes.
I feel like a lot of it is founded in
really good data and information that
you have, the systems that you use.
But it feels somewhat counterintuitive,
I think, to what also a lot of other
people see or hear in the industry.
So looking forward to the takes here.
Um, maybe to, to start us off with
something fiery, um, I would love
to hear you rank the worst to best
typical prospecting strategies
for a traditional tech-led MSP
Oh, boy.
Okay.
Um, eh, I'll do my best to keep
these in a linear order, but it
might be sort of clusters, you
know, o- of, of tiers, you know.
Dat is mooi.
Let's call D tier is, uh, what
most people do, which is nothing.
Like,
Excellent start.
Okay.
doing… Let me say it this way.
Doing a great job for your
customers is not lead generation.
That's just being a business, and you
will get some customers just because
you've hung a shingle if you just
don't, if your business just doesn't
die for several decades in a row.
Yeah, but that's not what sales is.
So waiting is gonna be,
I'm gonna call that D tier.
But then really anything
else in the D tier
Oh God, uh, how many enemies
do I wanna make at once?
Um, using canned material over and over
again and then sending it out in mass.
Um, like if we're still email- if we're
still mailing people baggies of aspirin in
envelopes, uh, I think it's just D tier.
I think, I think it's… I
just don't think it works.
Um, and if it does work, you're not
attracting the kind of people that
you actually even wanna work with.
And then
the, uh, the prescribed Lenovo
posted LinkedIn material, right?
Ja
do something like, like you said,
doing nothing is the worst, but
Yeah.
know, that, that is, uh, not
Yeah.
it
And I, yeah, I'm gonna put
that stuff in C tier of, like,
vendor-generated syndicated content.
Like, what did Microsoft make for you?
Like, they don't know
how to sell this stuff.
That's why they're channel.
Like, they don't know how to-- They
don't know what end users even want.
So, uh, that's gonna be your C tier,
and then I'm gonna call your B tier…
A-and also down in there is just, like, AI
forward automation is the worst possible
way of building a high-trust relationship.
Um, we're building high-trust
relationships, so you can't start
by looking like a schmuck who is
sending them, like, "I noticed you
breathe air. Our company synergizes
with…" It's just nonsense.
But then you're gonna get up into
the B and A, A-tier stuff, and S-tier
stuff is, like… I think one-to-one
cold email is probably B tier.
It's way better than people actually
think it is, but it's not, it's,
it's not the most effective.
But if you're actually doing
one-to-one emails, it works great, just
nobody has the discipline to do it.
Uh, A tier is gonna be your sort of
marketing-supported cold calling, be that,
be that in-person cold calling, like w-
door-to-door, hitting people over the
phone, uh, with lead magnets and marketing
resources and follow-up, uh, cadences.
And I'm gonna call S tier, like the best
thing you could possibly do is going
to be going to trade shows for your
ideal markets and sending individual
video prospecting to your prospects,
sending videos of you talking to
people one-on-one via LinkedIn or email
So like actually recording like, "Hey Jim
Yeah.
and such company," like,
Yeah.
to a person, right?
Hey, Jim, Sarah here.
Just want you to know I'm not a robot.
Listen, I was looking at your
website the other day, noticed
you guys work with Clio.
Uh, we actually have 12 law firms in
the greater Cleveland area that are
working with Clio, and I wondered
if you guys had figured out how to
solve that pr- this one problem.
We actually automated
a way for another firm.
We saved them, like, four
hours of admin work a week.
Anyway, just wanted to say hi, introduce
myself, and, um, would love to connect
I love the idea of sending video
on LinkedIn because it, it sort
of, again, like makes sense, but it
feels counterintuitive because, um,
video itself, depending on sort of
the day of the week of the Microsoft
algorithm, doesn't do great on LinkedIn.
Uh, I think they're, they've been-
made a couple of attempts to change
that, but I think that's different
if the video is directed at a person.
So I think that's
Yeah.
That's a great suggestion.
Even if it's a bad cold call, man, like
I'm gonna open seven out of 10 videos that
I get DM'd 'cause I don't get that many.
But I'm not gonna open all the text
ones, but I'm gonna open the video
ones, and I'm gonna give it five seconds
Yeah.
Okay, that's cool.
So, um, I love that.
That's, uh, gives you good sort
of ranking of, like, where we
stand on what we should be using.
Um, cold calling I think ranks higher
than maybe people would want to do.
We'll certainly circle back
to that one in a minute here.
Um, as technical people, we
tend to overexplain the solution
and talk a lot about features.
Why is this a bad strategy?
Because I think in our head as technical
people, we're trying to explain a lot
of the value of what we're delivering
or what we do or what a solution has.
But I get a sense that this is, from
the limited sales training that I've
done, uh, this is not the right play.
Why is that?
Yeah.
Well, this is a good question, and
it's one that I have an answer for,
but then I have to give a, I have to
give a second answer on top of it.
So the reason it doesn't work
is that nobody cares about
how the sausage is made.
They care how the sausage tastes.
And actually, sausage is the example
I use in Feelgood because the more
I learn about how they made it,
the less likely I am to buy it.
So you don't sell sausage by
showing people the factory, you
show sa- you sell sausage by
asking people if they're hungry.
And that's my example for you
have to go to the outcomes.
But this is the thing, Todd, that's
actually really, uh, irritating to me.
Somebody… There'll be a talking point
in the zeitgeist about sales, and then
you'll have, like, an influencer say it.
Then you're gonna get your tier two
influencers will start parroting it.
Then you get your tier three influencers,
which is, like, somebody reposting an Alex
Hormozi tweet on their LinkedIn account.
Like, they're not… And then they'll get
20,000 re- likes, likes on that image.
They didn't originate anything.
They're essentially just distributing
other people's thoughts, right?
And then it, then it gets down into
the layman, the everyday people,
the you and mes of the world.
You know, the MSP owners who were all
at the, at IT Nation together going,
"You gotta sell outcomes. You gotta sell
outcomes." But nobody knows what the hell
that means, and nobody knows how to do it.
So they say, "Don't sell speeds and feeds.
Don't sell jargon. Don't use acronyms."
Okay, but what are you gonna say instead?
You're just gonna say, "We just handle
it." And they go, "Handle what?"
"Everything." "I'm good." Because
they don't… There's no direct value.
So yes, it doesn't work because the more
people understand the product, the less
likely they are to want to use it, uh,
the un- the inner workings of a product.
But you have to replace that sales,
that airtime of your sales process with
something that's worth talking about.
Any sales thought, quote-unquote thought
leader can tell you what to not do.
But this is the evidence of somebody
who's creating value for the market or
parroting other thought leaders, is the
people who only ever disparage methods
and they don't give you a replacement
method, which drives me up the wall.
So instead, this is how you
actually create outcomes.
I'm gonna explain it.
Look at the speeds and feeds.
Look at the technical stuff.
And by that I mean look
at your tech stack.
Write it down on a Google Doc.
Or I mean a, a… Sorry, a Word doc.
Who am I t- who am I talking to?
MSPs.
Write it on a Microsoft Word doc,
every single thing in the stack.
Then give me one sentence that
says, what does that thing do?
And this doesn't have to be
public-facing, so internally.
What does SentinelOne do?
What does IT Glue do?
Fill in the blank.
Then after that, say, um,
why should my prospect care?
That's a new column.
Now I need one sentence that
explains why the prospect should
care that that tool does that thing
And then you wanna go one
layer further that says, what
does it help the prospect do?
So, okay, the fact that I have
documentation all centralized
and keyworded and indexed is
amazing for helping me run my MSP.
But actually, can we find a through line?
So now, why should my customer care
that my documentation is on point
Well, on the top of my head,
um, they-- we are not going to
have repetitive conversations.
If they-- If you spoke to Clark on
my team two weeks ago and you're
speaking to Rubio on my team today,
Rubio knows what you said to Clark.
So they don't have to repeat
themselves, which is one of the
biggest frustrations of any outsource
support is getting transferred
and starting the story over again.
Absolutely
And then you could, you could
extrapolate, like support calls are
faster, tighter, and we will get better
over time so that they are going to
get white glove, individualized custom
support every time, and that they will
build a relationship over time with
their support team that's just going
to make it easier to work with us.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, so I love this because, like
I am of two minds of this because I
think a lot of what MSPs struggle with,
especially in sort of a modern sale, is
f- uh, combating commoditization, right?
And the way that we go through this,
I think it kinda lends to a bit of
commoditization, but I think the
answer is also in the same recipe of if
you're talking about these things in a
unique way that the rest of the market
isn't, right, because you have a more
sophisticated approach to how you're
communicating the value that you're
delivering, you're already differentiated.
Is-- Do you think that that's true,
or is sort of, is there like a more
advanced class for how you differentiate
as an MSP, assuming that we kind of have
very similar stack and we're producing
the same outcomes for a business?
Yeah.
Um, I have a lot of loaded… I have
a lot of opinions on the topic of
differentiation, and yes, we have
to differentiate, sure, if we don't
want to be in a c- a commodity.
But also, some people just
might be fine being a commodity.
Like, maybe you just wanna be a commodity,
and you wanna have 10,000 clients.
Like, f- good for you.
That's not what I personally wanna do,
but if that's what you are interested
in, there's th- you could go that route.
You could go super specific,
you know, and low friction.
You could be the, uh, the
Electric AIs or whatever that…
You remember that company that,
Yep, absolutely
Or, like, the, the Ripple IT now is, like,
they're trying to get into the MSP space.
That's a commoditizised, uh, commoditized
version, and that's going to be
very successful for those people.
But everybody obsesses over different,
but you have to remember that they don't
want different for different's sake.
What they want is not different.
What they want is better, right?
So, like, "Hey, we're different
because all of our techs also speak
Klingon, and nobody else can do that."
Like, well, congratulations.
You're different than everybody else
in a way that benefits me not at all.
So we get so obsessed over
differentiating the method, and we
need to differentiate the effect.
I'm gonna give you an example.
Are, is this on video, Todd,
or we only release audio?
Most, like 80% of listeners
are audio only, but yeah,
Okay
is, is usable.
If, if we want- if you wanna see
what's happen- about to happen here,
the magic trick, then uh, then check
out the YouTube channel as well, but
So magic trick, do, do you know what
I'm holding in my hands right now?
A deck of cards.
Oh, holy crap.
Okay, I called it.
So you did call it.
So literally, uh, uh, you can listen
along or you don't have to … I,
I'm not a professional magician, but
this is my, my ADHD fidget totem of
choice is a deck of cards, right?
But point being that magicians like
to fixate, they like to impress other
magicians by getting, finding unique
methods, and the truth is that you
could use the same method for every
single card trick, but if the effect
is different, then the audience
will have no idea that you did the
same trick over and over again.
You know what I mean?
Like, if I have a way of
getting a card… Hang on.
I can't believe I'm doing this,
but like I have a way of showing
you that jack of diamonds, right?
I already flashed, but if I can
take the jack of diamonds, put
it in the middle of the deck
And then produce it on top again.
So I could do that.
That's one method.
I could show you all sorts
of different methods.
That's a totally different
method, same trick.
So I'm not gonna get credit
for two different tricks.
The audience is gonna go, "You
just did that trick." No, I did
a totally different trick, but it
was the stuff that you don't see.
The method was different.
The outcome or the effect
was diff- was the same.
I took a card from the middle of
the deck to the top of the deck.
So we have to differentiate
not the method, but the effect.
And it has to, again, not just be
different, it has to be better.
I know this is a long answer,
Todd, but we can cut it down.
Um, so what does better mean?
That's the question you
need to ask yourself.
To the people you're doing IT support
for, if you can't give them a better
experience on the effect, it does not
matter whether you do it the same or
different than all of your competitors
I think this is where a lot of MSP owners
and s- like, uh, junior salespeople
try to go to and do a pretty, average
job at it, maybe sub average, because
they're communicating things that
really don't matter and are not sort
of like differentiated value, right?
They say, "We're better because
we have the best people."
Like bullshit, like how can I judge that?
Like ev- the other three people
that I had in the boardroom here
said they had the best people too.
Or, "We're proactive," which, you
know, quite frankly has never really
been that true in the industry anyway.
Uh, you know, "We're, we're,
uh, we care." Uh, okay, do you?
Right?
Like I don't know how you operate, so
like why am I gonna believe you that
that's gonna be true when the previous
two MSPs that I've had relationships
with were kind of terrible, and I'm
judging you based on those relationships.
So what are we, we then
trying to communicate?
'Cause these are not the
things, in my opinion
That's right.
You have to remember that managed
services is a service business.
We're a customer service business.
We're not a technology business.
Like, our job is to help
businesses do their job.
So it's not to be
impressively intelligent.
Like, who gives a shit,
dude, how smart you are?
Who gives a shit?
If it doesn't help me, why would I care?
So you have to ask yourself those really
hard questions, and the only way to do
that is to understand who you're trying
to do IT support for, and then talk to
those people and ask them the questions.
Like, "What do you want from an IT
partner that you've never gotten
before?" And then figure out
how to work backwards from that.
So they go, "Can you make the card
come out of my pocket?" Like, yeah,
let me build an a … Let me build a
method that will give y- that effect.
Let me figure out how to work
backwards from the desired effect.
That's how you build a good magic trick.
And so the way you build a good sales
proposition is you work backwards
from what they want out of you
So again, comes to personalization, right?
Like the best outreach
that you kind of noted was,
Mhm
a high level of personalization.
And in the sales process, again, I would
say it also echoes in account management.
The more personalized, the more specific
it feels to this conversation that
I'm having with you is about you and
not just sort of like the script that
I'm talking to everyone else with,
then that feels differentiated, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
there are tactics we, we could get into.
We could ha- I could tell you how to make
people like you more and make people feel
more special with, like, two or three
essentially conversational gimmicks,
you know, to help people with low
social IQ, like, feign higher social IQ.
There's some of those moves we could do,
but, um, on the front end of sales, we,
we just have to remember that, like, we're
not entitled to people caring about us
simply because we are very good at what
we do, and we're not entitled to people
buying our services just because we're
passionate about doing it the right way.
That is our responsibility to the market,
is make them care about it, you know?
Um, and that's the starting point.
So you, you wanna work backwards.
You wanna work from, you know, the
outside in rather than inside out when
you're talk- meaning s- work from the
client back to you when you're looking
for differentiation, not inside out and
then seeing if the client accepts it
Okay.
thing that MSPs tend to run into a
lot in prospecting is just sort of
whatever I have is good enough, right?
Like gone are the days where there was
lots of golden opportunity of converting
people that were on T&M contracts to this
amazing, amazing thing called an MSP.
And now most businesses either have an
MSP or some type of IT provider that,
you know, maybe is not knocking it
out of the park, but they're just not
interested in entertaining something
new because they don't feel that it
will be different or better, or the pain
is too great to sort of make a switch.
So if, if you're doing some cold
calling or, you know, dropping into
some, some offices and people are
like, "Oh yeah, we've already got an
IT guy," what are some tactics to sort
of like go a level deeper and, and
sort of push past that resistance?
Yeah.
Um, I'll tell you the thing everybody
thinks is gonna work that doesn't
work is basically saying… Looking
for missed opportunity cost by
them having, like, a mediocre
provider, it just never translates.
It actually just makes you look
desperate to be like, "Okay, well,
what if, you know, what if w- I could
have done it a little bit better?
How do you think that would've changed
your business if you were only down for
one minute instead of an hour, and maybe
you could've gotten an extra client?
And how much would that be worth to
you?" And, like, trying to extrapolate
and find value through hypothetical
opportunity cost from the status quo.
It just never works.
Um, instead, if somebody has somebody
that they're happy with, there's a 90%
chance that they don't need you to sell
them anything, and maybe you should just
stop selling and go, "Sounds like you
don- sounds like you're content." Uh, and
that's where I would start by, by kind
of taking it away a little bit, you know?
If they go, "You know, I
actually have an IT guy.
We love him." You go, "Okay, it sounds
like, sounds like you guys are set up.
Th- this might probably be the last
time we need to have a conversation.
I just wanna make sure I, uh… If
you don't mind, let me ask a couple
questions before I go." Because, because
under those circumstances we don't
want to assume that their definition
of IT is the same as our definition of
IT, or that their definition of good
is the same as our definition of good.
So we could be like, "Okay, so
just so I cl- what does he do for
you, just so I can ask?" And he
might only do a couple things.
Maybe it's just he sold them a
firewall that leased with a internet
circuit through Sandler part- Sandler
Partners, and then he comes by once
a month and defrags their computer,
and they're, like, really happy.
All right, but that's not what
you sell, so that could lead
to a different conversation.
Maybe it's, like, an MSP that
actually is way better than
you and you couldn't beat them.
But we don't know until we figure out,
like, what does this person do, you know?
But you wanna do that on the way out
the door, i- if you will, uh, um,
figuratively speaking, meaning know…
Make sure that they hear you
and don't ignore what they said.
Don't be like, "We have an IT guy,
but h- but how do you know he's
as good as me, and what, how do
you know I'm not better than him?"
It's just not gonna be successful.
Go, uh, I call it, I call
it closing the folder.
Like, you have a sales folder in front
of them and they go, "We're happy."
You go, "Okay," and you close the folder.
And now they feel safer.
You… They feel like you're not gonna
keep pushing super hard, and they might
be a little bit more candid with you,
and it also demonstrates that you're…
it's just a conversation
That's right.
That's right.
And you're listening to them.
Um, so that's kind of the move.
And then, you know, like, you could
always do the, like, "Would you like
to see what good looks like from us?"
But why would they?
If they don't have any pain, then
there's just, there's no sale
So is this, like this is not a matter
of like there's a way to sort of
hack this resistance and get past it?
It's really just sort of you should move
on to greener pasture and find somebody
else who is maybe having some pain?
It could, yeah, I think very often, yeah.
Um, what I… It doesn't mean
that the second somebody objects,
you just, like, cower away.
Again, it's about b- the, the move
here is not to become persistent,
the move is to become curious.
And if you could become genuinely
curious and like, "Wow, you know
what? I'm actually, I'm really s-
pardon me being so aghast, but you
don't know how rare it is that I meet
somebody who loves their IT guy."
And they chuckle, and you go, "Do you
mind if I ask what makes you love him?"
And talk about, get them to talk
about what he's doing right instead
of saying, "What is he doing wrong
that I could improve?" Because
then they, they feel exploited.
They're like, "I just told you to go
away, and you didn't hear me." You
go, "Wow, I'm just gonna be honest,
so many people don't like IT guys
because our industry, you know it.
You know what we're like." And
they chuckle. "Do you mind if
I ask what you love about him?
Like, what, what makes you happy?" And
then get some information there, and then
go, "Okay, and he's probably got your
cybers handled, and I'm assuming that he's
got a plan for you guys to use AI, right?
He sounds like he's on top of it."
And that would be your way
of … That's sort of a
non-threatening discovery question.
"So he's good on AI, you're good
on, uh, cyber, and then you gu- are
good on X other thing that we do.
You guys, your phones
are covered and stuff.
Well, listen, it sounds like you guys f-
found a, found a good, uh, found a winner.
Um, you tell me, Miss Customer,
is there any reason for me to even
follow up with you in the future?"
And the truth is, Todd, that if
they actually have any cur- any
need in there, they're gonna be
like, "Well, what do you do?"
Right.
Yeah
Because you've, you've demonstrated
like an, being a normal person.
But if you just go,
"Well, how do you know?
I'm probably better than him, and maybe
you're overpaying, and let me just see a
quote," and, and trying to force people
who don't, aren't asking for anything
into a sale, you end up in a bad spot
Yeah, that's great.
I love that.
Um, another issue that people tend to face
is relying a little too much on FUD, and I
Mhm.
that you're kind of very much
against fear-based sales.
Um, but I think people kinda hear
this as a way to sort of break
through to a business owner that
really doesn't care about IT.
And quite frankly, like that's
most of the MSP prospecting market.
They don't know what we do.
They don't particularly care.
That's why they're partnering with you.
So how do you break through to kind
of a reluctantly engaged prospect
where they're like, "Eh, I don't know.
I don't care.
I, I, I don't think any of
this is very interesting.
I don't think I need this."
Uh, if you're not gonna rely on
FUD, then how do you do that?
Saying like, this is past, you know,
you've-- you're actually in a meeting
with them talking about what you do
and what you offer, or even more so
in a QBR, like from the, a bit more
on the account management strategy,
similar approaches, but they're just
sort of like, "Meh, I'm not that
interested," and people tend to rely on
fear in order to drive that engagement.
So if that's the wrong approach,
how do you sort of get to the
same result in a different way?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, l- imagine it this way, right?
That, like, all business
Leader, most of business leadership
is about mitigating risk, not just on
IT, but like people who go to business
school are actually considerably less
likely to be entrepreneurs because what
they teach you in business school is
everything that can go wrong and how to
m- how to, uh, mitigate risk and l- like
shorten as much downside as possible.
And, and yet, is a CFO using FUD when
the CFO goes, "Yeah, you can't spend
more money than you make here, John Cho.
You can't keep doing that. You're gonna
run out of money." Like, that's not
FUD, that's just business leadership.
And so the thing is that when we
don't hold ourselves or we aren't
perceived at, at an executive level as
a true thought leader in technology,
then we come across as, like…
Did you ever, do you ever watch
The Office, the American Office?
Well,
the memes, but never watched it,
well, okay.
Well, there's an episode where there's
insurance, there's this Italian-American
insurance guy who comes in and he's
a really pushy sales guy, and Michael
thinks he's getting shaken down by the
mob bec- just because he's Italian.
But he sells insurance, and he was like,
"Hey, you never know. A truck r- runs off
the side of the road, there's injury. This
place could go up in flames tomorrow." And
he just sounds like a schmuck, you know?
Uh, and you don't take him seriously
as an it… And then he's like,
"I'm gonna keep following up.
I'm gonna be very persistent."
And then Michael goes, "Oh my God,
I think he's in the mob and I think
he's threatening my life." It's
actually, now that I think about
it, it's a great example for this.
Like, you can talk about risk mitigation
without it having to be fear-mongering.
It's really more about the positioning
and how you wanna be perceived.
Do you know what I mean?
So yes, when somebody's like,
"Hey, I just don't care about
cyber," you go, "Yeah, of course.
I don't blame you.
I wouldn't… Th- that's why
I'm here is so that you don't
have to care about cyber.
But let me explain w- what that means.
My job is to close a
bunch of doors for you.
I just told you that these ones are
open, and today I'm not equipped
to close them on your behalf.
So really, if you'd like to continue
not caring about this, you need to
empower me to take care of it for you.
Do you want me to keep being your IT guy?
Good.
This will be the last
time we talk about it.
Just give me the keys to the
kingdom and I will keep it safe
for you." I don't think that's FUD.
Do you know what I'm saying?
But where
stewardship in a m- more so,
it's, it's exactly right.
We're steward- we are stewards of
their business so that, and they are
stewards of their business, and you
can empower someone to be a steward
without being like, you know, be-
being extreme, being the other way.
And I will say the last thing, I
know I'm, I'm giving long answers,
but Todd, a lot of people push
back on me because FUD works
Read, ja
Um, to which I say, "Yeah, do
you know what the number one best
possible tactic is to close a deal?
Bar none, if it's, if the only
metric is get the deal closed.
It's lying.
Works like a charm.
Ja.
Every time.
Just tell them whatever they need
to hear, hide the real truth in the
fine print, and get them to sign it,
and then you say, 'Not my problem.
You should have read it.' That's
the best closing tactic there is.
Does that mean we should use it?"
Well, especially in our industry
because like I always, I always say like
we're, MSP sales is difficult because
you're essentially selling trust,
Mhm.
So if you sell trust by lying to
people, that's, that's not gonna work,
That's what I'm saying.
And so like, yeah, okay,
that would get deals done.
But I don't wanna… That's not how
I'm, that's not how I live my life.
That's not how I do it, uh, period.
I'm going to rise above my
animalistic desire to get to coerce
someone into giving me what I want,
and I'm going to be a freaking
reasonable, trustworthy per- partner.
And the truth is that long-term,
you're gonna have the relationships.
You know, Todd, you've been
in this channel a long time.
There's a few… If I, if I mention a
few characteristics of some MSP vendors,
MSP vendors who burn a lot of MSPs, who
have been through the market a lot, and
who everybody… You know the names.
You can see their faces.
You know who I'm talking about.
Like, yeah, they've made a ton of money
by being people that are not admirable.
And so, okay, are they successful?
Not by my definition of success.
I would never want to look
to emulate that person
You know what I mean?
And now a lot of those people, uh,
there is eventually a reckoning.
You can only sort of be a con man
for so long before people catch on.
And that's how when, when you're
coming in trying to undercut a
trust-driven relationship using fear
with a stranger, you come across as
a con man, rightly so, and your trust
is permanently gone with that person
So the, the, like the building
of a salesperson, right?
Like, uh, how much of this, uh, is
innate skill versus something that
you learn and can build, right?
Like I, I, think you come at
this as from a different angle.
I think you have the t- the
stereotypical entrepreneurial sales,
uh, um, story of selling kids to…
Uh, selling candy to
the kids in the school,
Ja
you're, you're the typical
lemonade stand kid.
Ja
do you think that that had
a bearing on your success?
And I think you… I've heard you
speak of some examples where you took
someone who had no skill set at all and
Hm.
incredibly successful.
How much
Ja.
attribute that to the things that they
learned versus the systems that you use?
Yeah, really good question, Todd.
Um, I mean, undeniably it's helped
me, that it's in my temperament to
be… I think that would be, that'd
be, uh, total BS to be like, "No, it's
all, I get all the, all the credit
and this was all hard work." Like,
yeah, I'm a, a, a charming, outgoing,
extrovert, high energy, high drive guy.
You know what I mean?
And all of those things are to my
benefit and I can't pretend they aren't.
Also, um, there's a lot of really
charming high drive p- losers who
never achieve anything, you know?
So it's not like I was just… Like, I
also had to pick up the phone all those
times in a row to, to find those, to start
those conversations to close those deals.
So, um, the, I think, us- you're,
you're gonna have a l- a ceiling if
you're like a talent… This comes
up in acting a lot too actually.
Um, a lot of really famous
actors were not natural actors.
They had to work super, super, super
hard for a long time at it, like decades
before anybody gave a crap about them.
Mark Ruffalo didn't get his
first break until his late 30s.
He had been an actor for like 15 years.
Nobody cared about Mark Ruffalo
'cause he was not natural at it.
And then there's the Margot Robbies
who book their first audition for a
Australian soap opera and then come
to New York and book their first
movie audition for Wolf of Wall
Street because she's Margot Robbie.
And yeah, she's gonna be successful as an
entertainer because she's Margot Robbie.
Okay?
Um, but so many of the top performers
actually had to overcome obstacles
in order to achieve their results.
So I don't think it's necessarily
about… It's, it's more about
your grit than your innate talent.
And maybe grit is innate, so in that way
maybe, maybe this is a backwards answer.
But it's more like how many times
in a row are you willing to do
this is going to determine if
you can be successful at sales.
And if it's less natural for you
than me, then sure, you might have
to do 10,000 times to my 7,500.
So the question is are you going
to do it 10,000 times or are you
only going to do it 1,000 times?
That's the bigger determiner
versus do you need 7,500 or 10,000
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, I guess related as well, like I'm
an ops person through and through, and
I tend to always view o- like, I never
viewed myself as very good at sales.
Um, when I, I was good at warm sales,
so if I was brought into like a warm
prospect that was second meeting,
I would do very well, and that,
that worked pretty well for me.
Um, m- my lens for sales is very
much about the systems approach
to it of do these things and you
will produce good outcomes, right?
Like, yes, there are, um, some sort of
emotional sleight of hand, some engagement
techniques, some, you know, some
prospecting, uh, tricks that you can do.
Like, those are some of the things that
you can pick up, and the way, the way that
you act and the way that you do things I
think are, are a big component of this.
But my favorite expression that
I use about sales to sort of
the RevOps side of things is
activity precedes results, right?
And I'm very curious if people are
not achieving the results, I wanna
see your activity because, you know,
you need to get those reps in in order
to achieve something out of this.
So how much do you put weight
in the idea that there are
systems that are required, right?
Like I've heard you talk a bit about, you
know, if you're a professional, you should
be using a CRM, those sorts of things.
I don't find that those things
come naturally to a lot of people
that I see in the sales industry.
And how much should we sort of push
people towards that, of the mechanics
of sales is just as important
around the techniques and sort of
the, the personal influence part?
Yeah.
Uh, that's every- that's all of it.
It's, it's mechanics is the right word.
Like, sales is a series of processes
and SOPs, and y- you're gonna get
leverage via tools, just like it's
exactly like on the operations side.
Sales is operations.
It's just hard- way, way more ambiguous,
and there's a lot more waiting.
But then once you have a
data set, then you can start
forecasting much more accurately.
Do you know what I'm saying?
When you have data intelligence
based off of a data set, you know
500 cold calls gets me a client,
then it's no longer ambiguous.
Pick up the phone more.
That's the answer.
So the thing is that because it's
unnatural for MS- for technical founders,
it sounds like that's really the q-
the lens you're asking these questions
through is like a technical founder.
It's un- it's unnatural, so you just
like want to f- you want another answer.
You keep shaking the eight ball waiting
for a different answer, going to IT Nation
again waiting for a different answer.
The answer's never gonna change.
It's the simple and hard repetitive tasks
that will get you new clients, period.
Make more … I say in my c- in my
coaching community when people are
like, "Eh, I tried that, doesn't
work," and I say, "You're not allowed
to tell me something doesn't work
until you've tried it 1,000 times."
Ja,
That's my number.
'Cause how many tries did it
take Edison to make a light bulb?
Over 900 tries, right?
And he was like, "I found 900 ways
to not make a light bulb," or 700.
W- it was a high number.
Um, so okay, that's like
my, that's my metric.
If you have tried it 1,000 times,
you can tell me it doesn't work.
If you tried it four times, you can go
quit freaking whining and do the job
You see what I'm saying?
no, I, I totally agree, and this is what
I, I find is a, a bit problematic and
why I'm sort of asking these questions
through the technical founder lens is
I think this is the group that needs
to hear a lot of this the most, right?
Because they're somewhat introverted.
They're a bit pessimistic about these
ideas of like, "Oh, that's crap.
It doesn't work." Like, "I, I would
not take calls from, from anyone.
All these vendors are
bothering me," right?
So they tend to apply their psychology
to everyone else that they're
potentially trying to prospect to.
Uh, and, you know, uh, they always end
up wanting to hide behind a keyboard of
like, "Well, can't I just put together
a really good SEO campaign or an AdWords
campaign, and then, uh, the floodgates
will open, and I will have all of the
inbound that I need?" And like, sure,
like, that's not necessarily a terrible
strategy, but I don't think it's very
reliable, and it's very expensive.
Uh, versus, like you say,
of just like make 100 calls.
That was honestly one of the best pieces
of advi- of advice I got when I was
first starting my consulting company.
A friend of mine, a mentor of mine said,
"Todd, it's legs and lungs. Move around
as much as you can and talk to as many
people as you can." And I was like, "Huh,
that seems deceivingly simple. I guess
I'll give it a try." And lo and behold,
like, there was two things that I think
were very, very valuable out of that.
One, it helped me to refine what I was
trying to say o- over and over and over
again until, like, I felt better and more
comfortable pitching what I was doing.
And then I also realized the
second piece was I was not pitching
to everyone that I talked to.
I was just looking for feedback, inputs,
and additional people to talk to, right?
Ja
eventually they're like, "Oh, that
sounds interesting. You should talk
to my friend so and so." And then
Ja
not that I'm pitching this
person for the product.
And I think that that's a really
powerful strategy for people to just
get up, move around, and start talking
to as many people as you can about
what you're trying to provide, right?
Yeah.
There's a reason everybody
knows who you are, Todd.
And by the way, this is our
first conversation, isn't it?
Ja
But we both knew who we
each other were for years.
Yeah, yeah
And there's a reason people know who
you are, because of the legs and lungs.
Like, I love that.
Um, but let me say it this way, like,
sometimes people hear me and they get
discouraged, especially because I can,
espec- in contexts like these, I can
be very direct on, like, an interview.
Um, people take it personal when if,
if f- they were to hear something like,
"You aren't good enough at this skill
today." This is not a personal attack.
This is a benchmark.
If you, you're comparing somebody's
cybersecurity posture against NIST
and they're not compliant, it's
not an attack on their business.
This is a data point, and you're
gonna use that data point to create an
action plan to close the delta, right?
That's, that's all technical people
do all day: collect data, identify
a goal, quantify the delta, make
an action plan, and execute it.
That's all I'm asking you to do, is
to unemotionally observe the data
points of your current skill set.
But if you wanted to, you could think of
even the soft skills and the social quirks
and the stuff you were referring to.
Dude, 90-plus percent of that you could
write an SOP for how to make a friend.
You could write an SOP for how
to pick up a partner at a bar.
I could do, we could do
it, because it exists.
Like, psychology is science.
It's, it's not just art, and
really all art is, is an intuitive
understanding of an underlying science.
So
give you a really excellent
example of this, Brian, right?
Like, and this is, this is reflecting
back, like something that I took away
from you in, at, at your talk at ScaleCon,
is, uh, yes, you're an introvert.
You're not very good at networking.
Here's a strategy to help you at one
of these networking events when you're,
you're, you're, you're stuck as a
wallflower, and there are these little
pods of people standing around talking.
Walk up to one of them, just
sort of slide in and be like,
"Hey, what'd I miss?" Right?
Like, "What's up?" Right?
And it's such a simple and deflective
way of just, like reducing the mental
load of like, how do I show up and
introduce myself and not stand there
awkwardly for 15 minutes and then just
Ja.
right?
Because to your point, people
are actually very, very inviting.
They're like, "Oh, hey, this is so-and-so.
We were talking about this thing." And
then all of a sudden you're in, you're
involved in the group, and all of that
sort of mental baggage of how difficult
it will be to, to network with these
people completely dissolves, right?
I think that's a really effective
strategy around like exactly what
you're saying of like, there's these
little things that you can do to
make these things easier, but it's
Ja
and it's really not as
difficult as we may think it is.
No, it's not, and you can fake it.
The amount of highly successful
entrepreneurs that are really just
sociopaths mimicking human behavior
like, like, nobody's gonna convince
me that Alex Hormozi is a normal dude.
There's something wrong with him.
That's why he's worth $200
million and he's not 40, you know?
Like, but he just breaks
things down into checklists.
So, like, let me give you one right now.
You mentioned QBRs.
I'm gonna give you three Cs:
compliment, callback, curiosity.
Do those three things.
So first of all, compliment people.
I don't know why people over…
Th- they overcomplicate this.
Give someone a genuine compliment,
this is all the way back to Carnegie,
and they will like you more, period.
It's not hard.
And it, it just has to be genuine.
You can't be like, "Nice tooth.
Okay, anyway, let's buy this
cybersecurity package." It has to be
like, "Hey, man, you're looking good."
That could be s- that could be it.
Then I mentioned curiosity.
Curiosity's the most
charismatic thing you can have.
Be genuinely interested in the person
you're talking to and they will like you.
Meaning ask them a question, and if
there's something in there that sparked
another mental thought for you, follow
that question and just follow the, the
hair of curiosity through your brain,
and they will feel seen and loved and
liked, and they will like you back.
And the last one was callback.
If you…
This is for the technical people
on the call who you're going, like,
building friends is exhausting,
seeing friends is exhausting.
Recall something from the last time
you spoke and bring it up again.
Something you discussed.
Be like, "Hey, whatever happened with
such and such?" Or, "Hey, reme-" Uh,
even a joke that worked before, like…
Or something they said.
"Hey, I remember when you said
that. It made me laugh." Call
back one thing from a previous
conversation and that is the recipe
to building an ongoing relationship.
If you do that in your QBRs, even
in your sales meetings, call back
something from your last sales
conversation, you'll be more likable
But all right, um, couple other
ones before I let you run here.
Um, the other piece that I don't know
how much, I suppose you h- I mean,
you have lots of opinions, so I'm
sure you'll have an opinion on this.
It's a bit outside the, the vein
of sort of, uh, the typical sort of
prospect lead develop type idea though.
But one thing I see a lot of organizations
struggle with is how do you appropriately
hand off a new prospect for onboarding?
Like you have the owner or a salesperson
that is involved in this, uh, this,
uh, relationship development with
a new prospect, and then they hand
them off to, you know, a project
manager or a technical team lead,
and they're like, "This is John.
He's gonna run you through this process,
and it's gonna be amazing." And then
they kind of disappear and they're like,
"Well, but wait, what happened to Brian?
Like we were buddies.
He, he sold me this whole thing and now
I don't get to be involved with him?" So
like what's the crossover that you think
is sort of the best, uh, the best approach
to this so it's not completely redundant
where the salesperson is wasting all of
their time, not wasting, but spending
sure
time with the onboarding process,
but still having that crossover
so the comfort- the client feels
comfortable that they've made the
right decision and there's continuity?
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Um, it's more about, I think it's more
about the work you do on the back end
because obviously, like, they assume the
salesperson isn't gonna be their primary
point of contact forever, especially
when they know you're a salesperson.
Mhm.
Um, if you disguise the fact that
you're a salesperson because you're
ashamed of being a salesperson,
then you might end up creating some
confusion during onboarding 'cause it
like, "Oh, I thought you were my…
You said you were a customer success
liaison, but I never talk to you again?"
No, just be a salesperson, and then
they'll, it, it will trigger them.
It'll label appropriately in their mind so
they have more right-sized expectations.
But it, it, to me, it could be
as simple as a internal meeting.
It could even be a doc now, and
it could, frankly, it could be an
agent that just scrapes all the
transcripts from the sales meeting.
But the onboarding team needs to know who
are these people, what do they do, why
are they leaving their current solution,
and what was their most recent solution?
You know what I mean?
so much in this.
That's the, uh, uh, as you say
that, I'm like, "Of course you
need this information," but I
Yeah
this happens in most cases.
It's wild
Yeah, 'cause if, if they have a
bad MSP now, like we, we want to
start off on the right foot to
be like, "And why are they bad?
What don't you like about them?
Let's position ourselves differently.
Let's show them better." You know?
Or if they have an IT guy and we need to
be more of like a show of force, let's
have three people on the call, you know?
And we wanna show them
that we have a deep bench.
Uh, I think work backwards from the
sales questions of what do you need,
why do you need it, and why don't you
have it, and have those pull through,
the answers to those questions pull
through into the onboarding phase.
So we go, "Listen, Brian and I talked
extensively about, uh, your conversations.
I actually listened to
some of your transcripts.
I know that the main thing we
wanted to resolve was this phone
system issue you guys keep having,
so that's the top of my list.
Um, a- I am gonna get to
that in just a minute.
Let me set the stage for you guys
a little bit and just walk you
through what it's gonna be like now
that with your new partnership."
And proceed your onboarding process with
a ten-second spiel demonstrating that
the knowledge transfer was successful to
the onboarding person, and the onboarding
person understands the objectives.
Then I think you won't need as much
crossover because they will feel like…
They'll feel the handoff was successful.
But if they don't get any of that from
their onboarding people, if they keep
pulling back to your sales reps, it
means your onboarding people aren't
giving them a high degree of confidence
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Again, like it's that, that continuity
of not sort of the client having to
repeat themselves and you're reflecting
back like, "I, I actually understand
why you're here and what you need." It
just creates so much more confidence
as you're kicking off that strategy.
That's awesome.
right.
Brian, um, what is one thing a technical
owner should start doing next week
to improve their sales strategies?
Recognizing like just saying,
you know, start making some calls
is maybe a bit too much to ask.
Obviously, we'll link to your podcast
and the group work that you do for,
for coaching for sales development.
Those would be good strategies.
But is there some sort of low bar
that people could take away as,
as a really actionable strategy
that they could start next week?
Yeah, for sure.
Um, go to your favorite client, ask
them to talk to you for 15 minutes, and
then run a informal customer discovery
interview that basically says like,
"What do you like about working with us?
What don't you like about working with us?
Why did you choose us?
And if you were me and you want,
and I, and you had to go find more
people like you, what would you do?"
And just straight up ask your best
client how to get more best clients
Basic market research, huh?
Yeah.
Uh, we call it a customer
discovery interview.
I had one today with a client.
I love the guy, and the truth is,
like, we basically accidentally
secured a contract renewal with him.
Was- wasn't even the objective.
I was like, "What do you want us
to be doing better at, and what are
some of your wins so that I know?"
But that market research, that's going
to give you so much better context
for, like, what's gonna work in the
future, how do I get the right people
putting the right bait on the hook
to catch the right kind of fish.
You know what I mean?
Um, that's something you could do that
doesn't require any new relationships.
It just requires 20 minutes
and, uh, a relationship that you
probably already have a strong
relationship with that person.
That's what I would do
Awesome.
has been great, Brian.
Uh, links to you, your LinkedIn and, uh,
your podcast and your, uh, your program
as well will be in the show notes.
Any other last call-outs or calls
to action for anyone listening?
Uh, just that I wish I would have
asked you more questions because
I talked way more than you, I
know, in this, uh, conversation.
But, um, you-- I appreciate what you
do, Todd, and actually you are very
highly respected, if you don't mind
my saying, uh, by a lot of the people
in the channel, and I appreciate, uh,
opportunities to have conversations
with guys like you about this.
But no, just, just keep your head up.
My wall behind me says, "This is
going to work," and I mean that.
Just, uh, treat the unknown… treat
the delta between where you are now
and where you need to go as a project,
and then break down each one of those
confusing things into a, a project and
make a scope of work for the project.
And maybe the scope of work
is get better people skills.
Okay, fine, then break that
into something manageable.
And you, you can do it.
You can close the gap, and you can
become what you need to become to
achieve what you want to achieve
Awesome.
Great advice.
Thanks for being here, Brian
Yeah.
Thanks, man