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Two friends – Dave Gerhardt (@davegerhardt) and Casey Ford (@fordpr) – share their love of golf in podcast form as they talk shop & chat with those who have made golf their long game.
00:00.00
dave_gerhardt
All right case we got an interview we just wrapped up with Lou Stagner I started following him on Twitter a couple years ago. Big data guy. He worked with Arcos Golf I didn't know he stills a corporate corporate job and you know big big data analyzing data. He's also assistant golf coach at Princeton what was your reaction to that conversation.
00:40.25
Casey Ford
I like the fact that he's got the job in big data. That's like a he's really crunching numbers and this is kind of a side thing which is ah impressive. Um, great great interview someone I've followed. It's funny I was talking to someone yesterday actually at ah at a 4 year old's birthday party. Um, saying that we're going to talk to him today and.
00:44.52
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah.
00:54.36
dave_gerhardt
Obviously.
00:58.11
Casey Ford
And they didn't know who he was but they later texted me like oh I follow that guy I just didn't realize he's one of those guys that just pops up in your feed whether or not, you know you're following him on Twitter he's a great golf stat analytic guy and he's a big proponent of not rolling back the the golf ball which you know I'm ah I'm a fan of so.
01:17.27
dave_gerhardt
Hey I thought that was a great. Ah so we talked about you're you're a 10 handicap. He asked you how many birdies over under and he has all the data in front of him and it was interesting right? because you make if you make a birdie in a rat like that's a.
01:17.65
Casey Ford
1 me after.
01:29.81
dave_gerhardt
Ah, 1 birdie seemed to be like without you looking at the data seemed to be like you're kind of benchmark right.
01:35.96
Casey Ford
Yeah I mean like a birdie for me is the same thing as like me firing 2 t balls out of bounds basically ah so his point and you'll you'll listen and you're here is that that's where a guy like me can make up a lot of the strokes is focusing on the the big scores versus. Birdies which we talked a lot about with John Sherman who who I know he's ah he's done a lot of work with too in the past so a lot on that line of thinking but it's cool. We talked a little bit about this too. But the adoption of kind of the non swing coach golf coach which is is a really cool thing for me because I've always struggled with. Swing coach kind of stuff. Anyway, it's hard for me to take a lesson I get on a Tuesday to the first T two weeks later but people that can kind of help you talk through just strategy and also obviously have the stats to back it up are are pretty cool.
02:22.87
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, just because you said it I got to just bring it up the the the difference between I think the the thing that will change that and I felt the same way too. I think if you were able to have regular instruction and you're able to work away at small things I've talked to ceno a lot about this too. It's like. Hard part about like and I never had any progress with lessons because like you'd take 1 lesson and cenko would tell me yeah, people will like book a lesson with me and this guy expects me to solve everything and then you go to the course and you're trying to work on 100 things where it's like ideally you could find 1 or 2 things to chip away at. I think you would make your athlete I think you'd make a ton of progress. It just comes.
03:03.44
Casey Ford
Um, it's the same thing. Yeah I was gonna say it's like it's like ah this is probably a bad analogy but like a house or like a room in your house that needs like a fix or it needs a whole teardown and it's like I see these in 2 separate things I know.
03:11.55
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:17.18
Casey Ford
If I spent time with a jeno with swing coach I would get a lot better but I can't do that in a day or a week I'd need the time but there's little ways you can shave off little things to kind of carry you through the ah the current.
03:20.61
dave_gerhardt
Right.
03:26.21
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, well I thought I think this stuff is super interesting and this is an area where I'm trying to get much better I didn't know that you tracked all you tracked a bunch of stats anyway. But I think just bringing the lens of like we do have such a recency bias and like. You hit one t-ball off the planet and you think that you need to work on driver when like the reality is if you just hit if you hit it to thirty feet more from 120 in in you'd be scoring a lot better I think I don't have that I track my game pretty well like in my head and but. But just like anything in life. It's like if you don't actually track it. Um, you're not going to get any better so I'm personally interested in I have the Arco stuff now I'm interested in using that. But even if I didn't I think I would be making much more consistent notes. 1 thing he said to you, you asked him about tracking putts. In this interview Lou talks about why he doesn't think tracking puts is helpful and I thought that was a really interesting part of this discussion and he shares like the one metric if you only picked 1 thing he talks about what that is and it's very it's easy for everybody to track.
04:26.78
Casey Ford
Yeah, that was an interesting part of the conversation to me too. It's about that. Everyone can kind of track their own stats. But I think the thing I don't think he called it this but the thing that how I took it was you really got to be aware of kind of tracking your intentions on the golf course versus results which is can be. Much much different things right.
04:46.20
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, you also got to ask him about Scotty Schuffler who as we're recording this fresh off a win at at the Arnold Palmer and obviously now the favorite to repeat at the players now that he he fix his putting but Lou seemed to think that he wasn't actually that bad of a putter.
05:04.95
Casey Ford
No, that was that I mean and we got into a little bit I think I asked him this too is it more the um, kind of just how jarring it is how good his his ball striking is that makes his his plotting seem so much more disastrous than it might be. Where there's other guys on tour who aren't hitting the ball as well as as scotty but are putting just as bad and we don't hear about them either I think is a point you made with the with Jt. It's a good interview.
05:29.58
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, all right? Well we got that we got that conversation coming up. You're going to the player. Are you going to go. You're going. You're going to the players.
05:38.70
Casey Ford
I guess we're going to take a week off here. So we won't this will be a good ah a good cliffhanger to leave on. Ah, ah yesterday again I have a I have a ticket I'm not sure if I'm going my wife yesterday said when are you going to decide if you're going to that golf thing or not which I think was a bad sign for me.
05:53.72
dave_gerhardt
When are you going to.
05:55.50
Casey Ford
I was like this isn't a really mine decision. This is a family decision. We'll see though where I happen to be in the area just on Sunday so we'll see if I pop over. But if so you'll see me there with a sign on on set. What is 17 there.
06:10.34
dave_gerhardt
Um, yeah, ah, all right? You're going there I'm off to Pinehurst and um.
06:12.16
Casey Ford
Just says Scottie's not actually that bad of a butter something like that with a quote from Lou yeah this is we should set this up a little bit because the next time we talk I think we're going to talk a few weeks with your coach and your buddy you're going down with geno right.
06:26.75
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, the doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so where ah, there's ah every year There's just a there's a tournament. It's like ah they do all these like New England Proam You know it's like a way to get money to the golf course they do him at different nice courses. There's a trip to he has.
06:37.73
Casey Ford
My dad's actually played in this one by the way at piners the same one that you've played in you Yes, same thing I don't think they threatened to top the leaderboard. So no record book to be there.
06:42.91
dave_gerhardt
With the wet with the web handed guy. Love that. So now. So so we're we're going to Pinehurst. We're going to be there Sunday through Wednesday um, playing every day I'm excited been hitting balls indoors since November I cannot wait to see the ball go in the air. I mean what a treat to be there with the guy who helps coach your golf game. It's like yeah wish I hit the 8 iron here. He's like not don't hit the 8 hit this one. Can't wait and um, it's the first time that I've ever been to a real a real proper golf facility and I'm interested to see in my reaction do I am I gonna go down there and am'm I gonna come back and I'm gonna be talking about. Bunkering and the green complexplay am I going to become that guy or am I I still be the same guy who's just played Pinehurst now we'll see I'm excited I'm calling this now I'm have making a hole in one. There's a bold prediction bold prediction.
07:30.97
Casey Ford
Wow with let me just specify first not on the on the cradle or on an actual course. Okay, guy. Yeah, okay.
07:38.83
dave_gerhardt
Doesn't matter as we've discussed on this podcast doesn't matter whether it's in the cats in the cradle and the silver spooner on the are on number two I don't know anything about any of the courses there I'm not that I'm not deep in the game I'm not goingnna read up I'm not Goingnna do anything I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna play and we're gonna make I'm Goingnna make a whole one. I'm just telling you now so we have it on the record and if I don't there's nothing to lose.
08:02.29
Casey Ford
Well, there's a few holes on the cradle. Especially what the time of day you play if you're finishing when there's a lot of people watching a hole in 1 in the cradle might be just as good as on the actual course just as amount of like crowds there and vibes is a really really cool place. The end of the day. Um.
08:04.14
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah.
08:13.10
dave_gerhardt
Um, it's great.
08:17.40
Casey Ford
The the cradle but you're you're have a blast number 2 is the best you play number 4 2 right? Yeah, you'll like it. You have a bust. Well 2 is 2 is obviously the best 4 is is um, a giil hands design. That's a he redid that recently.
08:19.50
dave_gerhardt
I Think so I don't know what are the good ones. What are the good ones.
08:29.85
dave_gerhardt
Okay, shout out.
08:34.57
Casey Ford
That's got a lot of Boston Golf Club vibes you'll you'll see that um I think we're we're going down a month after you and I think 10 is the brand new one I've never played that I think it's 10 there's a there's a course they built literally in 1 year we're down there last year they were putting shovels in the ground it opens I think in two weeks ah but 2 and 4 are your your best. There's ah, there's a few other ones that are some are member only courses that once in a while you'll get on if they have to kind of they have too many people there they get to get out different courses. But um, a lot of them other than 2 and 4 are pretty similar again. I've never played 10 but yola. You love fun I almost guarantee you're playing for it too. It's right next to where we're two t's off so but no bad rounds. There.
09:14.29
dave_gerhardt
Alright, can't wait I got notes I got notes we'll do it. We'll do a debrief when we come back I can't wait I'll send you pictures all right Good luck. Avoid all the.
09:20.16
Casey Ford
Awesome! and and no, no avoid you don't talk about a avoidid I want you you go down there. Avoid all the fish. Avoid any Disney related property I don't want to hear another stomach bug story there you go b y b.
09:32.99
dave_gerhardt
I'm eating peanut butter I'm eating peanut butter and jelly every day.
09:40.50
dave_gerhardt
You want to tell Roy to come on the pod.
09:41.33
Casey Ford
Or b I o pb here you go? Yeah I'd love for Rory come on the pod I'm getting sick of saying it Rory come on the pod I know for seriously we're going to take a week off we'll be back in two weeks and hopefully by then we'll be talking about um players champion.
09:46.60
dave_gerhardt
Get Rory needs to get it this golf game in shape is what he needs to do.
09:59.98
Casey Ford
Ah, Rory McIlroy right? So Rory come on the pub.
00:03.90
dave_gerhardt
Cool, alright hey everybody thanks for listening to this episode of the long game podcast. We have a great guest today I'm excited about this one. He is ah in ah in a world of golf Twitter that needs doses of reality Lou this is your expertise. He's a dose of reality on golf Twitter he's a data nerd a golf nerd just like us and he's someone that has shown me that I don't have to be thinking about hitting it to two feet every time I have a fifty six degree wedge and you know I got I got one oh two and I'm licking my chops. Lou says I don't worry about hitting it to two feet he's Lu Stagner Lou welcome to the show. Big fan of yours. Thanks for hanging out with us here on the long game.
00:45.24
Lou
I appreciate that Thanks for having me and a dose of reality I've been but called many different things I haven't been called that yet. Um, and I think most of them are a lot more negative than a dose of reality.
00:55.70
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, your mentions and man people people go hard in your mentions.
00:58.16
Casey Ford
Um, go with it.
01:01.57
Lou
They do? Yeah they do. You should see dms that they sometimes they're even worse.
01:08.50
dave_gerhardt
I can I can imagine um all right. We have a bunch of golf nerdy type questions that I want to dive into casey and I have a bunch of notes. But um I think that you're prolific on Twitter and 1 of the reasons why is it. It's not just because you have hot takes I think you have one of the best things to be great at at writing at content online. It's because you have data I just want to rewind back. You've told this on other places before but just for for us if you could humor us like how did we get here. How did you turn this lifelong. Passion for golf into you becoming the data guy. What's the what's the short version of the Lou Stagner story
01:43.89
Lou
The short version is I've been the data guy for a long long time. So I've been working in analytics in the corporate world before they called it. Analytics. So that's my background That's what I've been doing for a long time. Been a golf nut forever tracked. Everything in a spreadsheet you know, starting in the mid 90 s for my game. Um and then over five years ago now I decided I was going to start a blog on golf analytics I live in the northeast just wanted to kill some time in the long winters I had some stuff that I thought was interesting and cool and maybe a few people. Would see it um and started blogging about it and it quickly blew up. Um, and it's been kind of a crazy ride ever since and I get to do things and talk to people. Um that you know. Six years ago I would I would have said you're out of your mind if if these things are going to kind of service themselves. So it's been a really fun ride. It's amazing to get to combine 2 passions data and golf and and do those together in some really cool and fun ways. So it's been It's been a lot of fun.
02:54.87
Casey Ford
What did they call analytics back then before for that. What was your term for it.
03:00.19
Lou
Um, business intelligence I think it was one of the first things they started to call it like I remember the company that I worked at Twenty plus years ago they started this thing called the big the business intelligence group and then before that it was just reporting and people didn't quite have. You know words for it and now I think analytics is a very common way that people refer to this stuff these days. It does you know part of the big group. Yeah, definitely.
03:24.10
Casey Ford
I'll tell you the big has a nice ring to it though we get a meeting with the big. So.
03:26.62
dave_gerhardt
The big case Casey and I actually the way that we met was um we were interns at a tech Pr agency right out of college and ah seemed to be all the clients were in that space. Big. Big data that would the the cloud big data bi analytics and so I remember being like a 22 year old that didn't know anything about anything they're like yeah read this white paper about big data. Try to understand it are you? um.
03:55.17
Lou
Ah, yeah, awesome. Good stuff.
04:00.19
dave_gerhardt
Is this become your full-time thing now or do you still keep a keep a salary on the in the corporate world.
04:03.94
Lou
No I still work in the corporate world. So director of ah of a team for a large company but based out of Philadelphia and and I do that and golf is you know, still ah a side thing for me. Um, it'd be It'd be cool if one day it it transitions away from that. Um, but right now I'm still kind of kind of doing both those things and it's nice because the ah you know the little involvement that I do have in golf kind of fits in nicely to evenings and weekends. Ah, you know there's a lot of people that you know they they flip on Netflix at night you know I flip open the laptop and i. And I crunch numbers. So that's that's kind of my thing to do after the day ends.
04:48.35
dave_gerhardt
Um, and then you also now are an assistant golf coach at Princeton when did that come up.
04:54.23
Lou
Yeah I started helping out with the team with this my third season with them and I started helping out with them and I and I you know obviously I'm not a swing coach. They're all significantly better at golf than I am um and I do do nothing in that. World for them. But I help them out with mostly stats and analytics for the team and and help them prepare for events help them analyze their data which in turn helps them focus their practice time and that's kind of the thing that that I get to do with them. Ah get to travel to them as long as my. Travel with them as long as my schedule accommodates. So. It's a lot of fun being able to go to go to tournaments and and walk the course with the guys and and kind of be a part of of what they're doing. It's an absolute blast and we're doing really well. Um I think we're currently ranked ninetieth in the country and and. Yeah tail on last spring we we got up to I think Sixty Eighth was our best our last turnum of the year was ah you know, not not not our best of the year but um when we fell a little bit down the rankings. But the team is doing fantastic and.
06:05.37
Lou
I Think we're only getting better which is really cool. It's a lot of fun to be a part of it.
06:08.16
Casey Ford
Do you find that you know 18 to twenty Two year olds have trouble focusing on the stuff you're preaching are they just a sponge. They want to hear the analytics all that kind of stuff. So.
06:19.10
Lou
Um I think it depends it varies I work with the players at Princeton but I I work with and have worked with several different college players over the last five years and and some are are wide open and they're like a sponge and and they want to know more and understand more. Ah there's still a smaller percentage that um, that maybe aren't as open to it and and if you asked them they would probably classify themselves more as field players is probably what they would tell you? Ah, but I think for the most part there's so many players. Ah, in that age bracket that are embracing all of this data. They've grown up in a little different time. So strokes gain they started using that on the pga tour in 2011 only for putting initially then they expanded it after that. And it's really started to blossom over the last you know 6 7 eight years and so if you look at a 22 year old. You know, eight years ago they were 14 um, and so they've kind of. You know we're getting to that point where a lot of the younger golfers are really growing up with this stuff. So it's becoming a part of the game a part of what they do a part of how they get better and that's only going to continue to to so solidify over the next.
07:42.55
Lou
You know few years until it's just going to be. You know how you how you play golf is you know part of that is not only working on your swing working on your mental game but understanding your stats and applying that so you can get better. So that's where we're headed and and we're we're almost there now.
08:01.19
dave_gerhardt
What's your pitch to that that skeptic the the feel player because I've seen I've seen a bunch your stuff and it's um, you know you're basically giving them a map to to plot their way around course and and get better.
08:15.83
Lou
Yeah.
08:18.82
dave_gerhardt
And so it's almost like it doesn't matter that your feel play or not like this is going to help you but I'm curious in your words like how do you? How do you tell that story to someone who's skeptical.
08:27.43
Lou
Um, yeah, typically I give I give ah 2 examples. There's 1 example Sean Foley tells a story about when he started to work with Justin Rose and Justin Rose thought he was a horrible wedge player and and.
08:43.55
Lou
Foley looked at the data and rose was like second in the to on the tour in strokes gained with his wedges and Foley's like you know we don't need to work on your wedge game. You're literally like you know one of the top 2 players in the world with wedges. So. We don't need to focus our attention there. Um, and then the other example I give is my my podcast co-host Greg Chummers and Greg Chummers Journeyman on the pj tour he's 50 now he just played in his first champions tour event. but but Greg in the shotlink era he's like top 3 putters in the shotlink era he's a phenomenal incredible putter. He's one of the best putters to ever play golf and he told a story about how you know he thought his putting was off and and his putting just didn't feel right. And there was something going on and his coach did the same thing looked at the data and said Greg you are second on the pga tour right now on strokeski and putting per round What are you talking about and I think those are 2 great examples of how. We all as humans are pretty messy with how we understand what's going on. We we have a challenging time I think aggregating data. Um, and we fall into this rut of confirmation bias where.
10:06.93
Lou
All it takes is you know one wedge swing at an inopportune time to maybe go belly up for you and you immediately think oh boy I'm a horrible wedge player like and if it happens again right? And if it happens again relatively quickly. Now you start to confirm that oh I'm a bad wedge player and now in in your mind you're telling yourself. You're a bad wedge player when the data would completely disagree with that and so I try to hammer home the the notion that it's very challenging for us to kind of remove that. Bias that we all have um and without doing that you you know you kind of fall victim to what happened to Justin Rose and Greg Jomers where you know something happened in their game and they felt like it was really off but it really wasn't and you know those things can impact you right? So if you if you have. This feeling that you are a bad putter or a bad wedge player that can start to impact you in a negative way. So to me, it's really, ah, important to understand what's actually going on and not what you what you think might be going on and and we can measure that very and very. Um, you know, complicated granular ways to tell you a lot of information about your game. So it's better to have that information and act on it than try to guess and be wrong.
11:28.46
dave_gerhardt
And most people that listen to this are are not at the level of you know man what I what I would give to be 20 years old at Princeton and have go golf be I think all of us would do to be our full-time job.
11:39.13
Lou
Sure.
11:42.78
dave_gerhardt
But especially like if you want to get better in this setting and you only have a couple hours to a week to play or practice without the data of you know where do you need to go and work on to your point Lou like there might be it might feel like I have this big miss left. But it's actually like hey I'm going to be able to lower my scores if I get better at you know lag putting and. In the limited time that I have to practice. What should I be intentional about practicing. Um, we had John Sherman on I know you have ah you've chalked to John actually 1 of your most viral tweets was ah was John Swing and we talked about this on our podcast where you post.
12:10.88
Lou
Um, yeah.
12:13.61
Lou
Now I have.
12:17.50
dave_gerhardt
You often post like guess the hand you usually take it. It's usually ah a trick because it's usually a good player and you're trying to prove that like you know, many swings happen so you post this video of John Sherman who's a very good player. He's a plus 2 3 handicap just got absolutely destroyed in the comments. Everybody thought he was like an 8 or a 10 or or 12 But.
12:29.80
Lou
Yep, he did or 15 Yeah, no.
12:36.10
dave_gerhardt
Or a 15 right? I think I commented on that to it I was like oh I love this game where all the fifteens tell the plus 2 that he's an 8 No don't i.
12:41.85
Casey Ford
I won't be sending in my swing right.
12:42.97
Lou
Ah, ah, ah yeah.
12:46.91
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, there's there's no and unless you're Justin Thomas or max homema or Ludwig. There's no benefit to posting a video of your swing online its day I mean right? Yeah you you should know right? like you know the things that people Dm you and tweet you like there's no chance you should ever postas a video.
12:55.74
Lou
Um, agreed That's why you've never seen my swing. Yeah.
13:04.26
Lou
Exactly hundred percent yeah
13:05.97
dave_gerhardt
A fear swing but um, my point is John talks about this idea of um block practice I think he calls it where you're focusing on a specific skill set I love that concept. It just gives you something um, something to work on. So let's just talk about the the average listener of this. The show who wants to get better. What are the things that you recommend they start tracking? What were you tracking back in this you know original Lou spreadsheet in the in the mid 90 s and how does the average golfer who plays you know once or twice a week. What did they track that.
13:33.40
Lou
Well.
13:41.72
dave_gerhardt
That helps them get better and.
13:43.67
Lou
Yeah, well I was tracking everything I was tracking shot- level information back then so you know where I started from was it the fairway. How far I was to the whole what kind of lie I had where the flag was where it ended up. Ah what the wind direction was how strong the wind was. You know was the moon full all sorts of crazy stuff. Yeah yeah I had a system I had a scorecard system and if you looked at at a scorecard after the Round. Um.
14:01.29
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, wait wait and were you were you just like writing this on the scorecard or do you have a piece of paper like what.
14:15.47
Lou
It would look like almost like hieroglyphics I mean it was. There's no way you'd made sense of it. So I had this system that I did for every hole and kind of tracking all that stuff. Um, and I love the fact that I don't have to do any of that anymore. Um, you know with the tools that we have out there now. So for somebody that wants to to start like I answer that. A couple of different ways like if you're serious about improving um and you do want to get better. You really need something that is going to to give you strokes gained information that's without a doubt the best way to measure your game and understand performance. You know I consult it at at Arcos and and work there. And it's a fantastic tool. Um, and I'd love for you to use that. But if you don't want to use that and you're serious about your game like you need to you need to be tracking your strokes gain I don't really care if you do it on the back of a napkin. That's a lot of work and a lot of effort but you need that information if you're if you're serious about improving. Now. There are some people that tell me listen I don't want an app I don't want to deal with any of that stuff I want to write a few things down on my scorecard and that's about all that I want to do and I'm not interested and for those people that just aren't quite interested in taking that step. Um I would tell them. They want to start tracking greens in regulation really important stat. Very of all the traditional stats out there. Very strong relationship to how well you're going to play and is your handicap going to get better going to get worse greens in regulation. How many penalty shots.
15:49.70
Lou
That you have also an extremely extremely important number. We want to minimize our penalty shots. Um, and ah you know, probably the last thing I would say um and and this varies again depending on player. But for for our higher handicapped friends. I would want you to to start tracking like how many like really horrible shots you have and around a golf and that means you know you topped it you skyd it. You shanked it like how many really horrible shots you you had in around a golf that's kind of the last thing for our higher handicap friends and then. And 1 more. That's really important is um, did you keep your tsh shot in play like that's as far as t-shots go you know I think there's a lot of people that start to measure their t-shot performance by hitting the fairway or not and there's not a lot of value in that. Ah there's very little value in in hitting more fairways or hitting less fairways. Um I will caveat that by saying you know there are some courses that have you know four or five inch rough they don't have a big green staff. They cut the rough once a week it gets pretty hairy certain days. Um there's definitely more of a premium on being in fairways in that situation. But that is by no means the norm for most of us. Um, so keeping a teshot in play is really important. So did you hit it reasonably well like did you make reasonable contact and do you have a reasonable.
17:20.20
Lou
Um, chance to hit the green in regulation you know be on or around the green in regulation on your next swing if you can say yes to those you've hit a great T-sh shot check that as a win and those are the things you should be thinking of if you if you don't want to get to Strokes gain. But. I'll kind of circle back to that and say I would encourage someone if they're serious about getting better that you really need to be tracking Strokes gain in shot level detail.
17:47.12
Casey Ford
I Notice you you didn't include Putts on there that I keep a lot of those stats I also keep keep Putts is that something you you keep as well or is that separate. Yeah.
17:53.87
Lou
But putts per round is is pretty useless like puts per round is is going to be like I would say if you're doing that like I've I've tracked that in the past many many years ago I've I've had the scorecard where you where you track greens and regular you know green hit fairway hit number of butts. Ah, million people do that every round that they play um putts per round is extremely misleading I'm not sure what your handicap is Casey but if you went out and then you hit 1 green. Um, you're probably going to have a lot fewer putts that day if you went out and hit 18 greens. You're probably going to have a lot more putts that day.
18:30.78
Casey Ford
Right.
18:32.66
Lou
Um, when you miss greens you're typically somewhere around the green and that next shot is likely to be closer than you know if you hit the green from one hundred and fifty yards and so you're starting a lot closer from the hole when you miss greens and if you miss a ton of greens. Um. You are going to have fewer pots so very misleading, not useful stat. There's an old story from Gary Mccord if you remember him the former announcer you know, played on tour for years and he 1 year won the you know the award for the you know best you know fewest putts per per round on the pga tour and when he won and they gave it to him. He said something along the lines of you know? Thank you for awarding me for being you know the lowest guy in greens and regulation this year because that's essentially what it meant. Like the fewer greens you hit the the lower your putts are going to be.
19:33.90
Casey Ford
And you're right? Yeah, the the putting stat can be misleading and this gets into something too. Ah my father. He's a I'm a I'm about a ten Eleven handicap my my father's a high teen handicap. But for years he's he's took he's taken meticulous stats. On the course but not necessarily always the right stats which I think we're getting in into a little bit dear and misleading. He's the kind of guy he'll he'll hit a ball out of bounds hit a tree. It will come back in the middle of the fairway and he's checking fairway hit and I'm I'm always selling to him like what are you learning from that like that you're going to play that off the tree. So.
20:01.12
Lou
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:07.84
Casey Ford
That's an extreme example but there is a little bit of of in keeping stats to the point question and also you know I'll I have issues losing balls off the tee. Um, so I'll almost keep like a hybrid stat of I'm trying to play middle right of this fairway and if I miss it 5 you know three 5 yards right? and it goes to the first cut I'm still kind of checking that for directionally where I'm trying to play the ball versus like it could be up to an inch or three difference if you're a fairway. You know if you're putting a check or an x on that. So can you talk a little bit about also interpreting like the. The the stats and and everything you're picking up out in the course but making sure it's the right kind of stats. You're you're playing I think putting's a good example there too.
20:50.72
Lou
Yeah, that that's why strokes gained is so beneficial to be to be leveraging strokes gained that's going to give you you know the most accurate. Um.
20:58.22
Casey Ford
Um.
21:04.37
Lou
Ah, guide to how you're performing on the golf course in each category off the t your approach play around the green and your putting that is definitely what you you want to be moving towards if you're serious about you know, understanding how your game is performing. You know you do bring up and that. Strokes gain does have some some drawbacks that I think you'll see start to to go away over the next few years strokes gain simply treats everything the same. So if you have a let's call it a ah twenty yard little chip shot around the green. Um, and you're in the rough and imagine you're very short-sighted so you have twenty yards to the hole and the hole is only cut four yards from the edge and the green runs a little bit away from you. That's very different than if you have a same twenty Yard shot and you're only two yards from the edge of the green and you have eighteen yards of green to work with those are 2 very different shots and strokes gained. You know is not accounting for that at the moment. But I think you're going to see that start to change in the coming years, but it's still significantly better than some of the traditional stats now. You know your example of blasting one into the trees and coming back into the fairway. You know the opposite can also happen. You know you you hit a really good shot and you get an extremely unfortunate break. You know you you hit ah a sprinkler head in the middle of the fairway and the ball bounces. Another.
22:35.84
Lou
50 or sixty yards and ends up in in water. That's an unfortunate break against you So those things do happen and and you know sometimes you need to you need to consider those but hopefully your good breaks and your bad breaks over the course of time are kind of washing Out. Um. If you are someone that always consistently consistently thinks you have only good or only bad breaks you probably don't Ah, they probably do wash out some but you know?? Yeah yeah, exactly yeah.
23:02.94
dave_gerhardt
Everybody everybody plays with that guy who only gets the bad breaks.
23:07.25
Casey Ford
Yeah, you never hear the guy coming off the court saying you know they all even doubt today at all it all equaled that you don't hear that.
23:13.68
Lou
So Hopefully you know hopefully they're relatively evening out for you. It's not to say like in the single round that that's not an issue right? You could have 2 really horrible breaks and around and and we've all been there before it. It definitely does happen and so. It's It's not perfect and there's no way right now to kind of notate or flag something like that and treat it differently but Strokes gained as much better than the traditional stats.
23:41.16
dave_gerhardt
Hey Lou don't so okay, you you start tracking all this data you want to get better I love that you mentioned greens I just like I'm not as big of a data and analysis guy as you are but I do just in life I always find that like The simplest advice is often the best advice and so like if we trim this all down it kind of does feel like greens in regulation is the one like you hit more greens ah a lot of things are going to take care of themselves same way that like with your swing and mechanics like it's kind of like hit the center of the club face more and good things are going to. Going to happen I really I really like that but out of all these things. What do you do with the data other than practice like don't all roads eventually lead back to your you need lessons. You know if you're if you're the 7 you know you're the 16 handicap that starts tracking all this data. You're not just going to be in the office and yourself and creating a game plan. It's most likely going to be go and figure out what to work on with a coach or no.
24:45.78
Lou
Well I mean a coach is certainly a huge part of the equation for so many players and there's so many players that are that don't get lessons. They're not working with anyone. They're trying to trying to go down that road alone and that's a really challenging road to go down. Um, and so I would encourage anyone. That's that's. Trying to improve or wants to improve. They should go find a good instructor in their area or you know there's some fantastic instructors online these days with some unbelievable platforms that you know allow you to do remote lessons I do remote lessons I've done remote lessons. With with 2 different teachers over the last few years and they're fantastic and they're you know with the technology available today. It's very easy to do those things and I think one of the benefits of of tracking your data. Um is you can now show up. To your lessons with really good objective information for your coach. You ask any coach you can go talk to anyone that gives lessons right now and and ask them what do most people say to you when you start working with them. Um, and. Nearly every golfer shows up to the first lesson and the coach says well, what do you want to get out of this and they say well I want to be more consistent. What golfer doesn't and that's for the most part that's that's about all that they get and then they might get some boy I really need some work on my driver and the coach is trying to untangle and figure all of this out.
26:15.98
Lou
Um, in a very short period of time and they're going to maybe watch you take a few swings and they're going to try to you know quickly diagnose and understand um and we can remove so much of that by showing up with data and holding up your phone and saying hey look at my Arcos app. Check out my data. This is what it looks like over the last 20 rounds and then as you start to work on changes and and try to to get better at a specific part of the game For example, you can actually see how you're doing and you can interact with your coach on that and give that information back to the coach. And that really ah lets you know if what you're doing is starting to work or not and so you know you're right having a coach is extremely important and when you can show up and give that coach information about what's actually happening with your game that is extremely valuable to the coach. And that goes beyond. You know, certainly some of the confirmation bias that we have you know, think back to 20 minutes ago with the Justin Rose and great chomers examples. They're going to show up to their coach and say my wedge plays horrific and now if you do that the coach might you know focus that lesson on wedges with you. Um, and if you show up and you have data and you can show what your wedge play actually looks like your coach might say hold on time out like look at this, you're actually really really good at this part of the game like I don't understand why you think you're not good at it and then then to oh that one time I was playing on Saturday and we had is the last tool and we had five bucks on the line and.
27:49.24
Lou
You know I missed the green from a hundred yards well okay yeah it's going to happen but look at your performance over the last however, many rounds you're really good at that shot.
27:55.20
dave_gerhardt
Um, yeah I Love I Love that it's almost that. That's actually almost a better path. It's like before you go get lessons come with the data then then that's going to be your your quicker path to getting better. It's almost like if you've ever had to.
28:03.70
Lou
Yeah, so.
28:10.20
dave_gerhardt
Do something with the doctor where you got to like track what you eat, You're just like look I Just want this I Just want the cure and then you got to go home and track all the things that you eat and what you did and then you come back and just like I think's that's a great idea not to to to plug Arccos by the way, a friend of mine.
28:20.30
Lou
Yeah.
28:25.72
dave_gerhardt
Ah, a guy that I do business with he sent me last year he gave me a subscription in the golfers journal this year he say gave me a Arcos subscription and I haven't so I'm ah I'm a 2 handap blue and I've never tracked any data and I'm like this is my year I'm like I'm going to become data driven. So next week I'm going to pinehurst at my first trip of the year
28:43.75
Lou
Ice.
28:45.66
dave_gerhardt
Got my arcos I'm going to get it all plugged in. Do you think as a new as a as a lower handicap player who's never tracked anything. Do you think I'm going to have a moment in a couple months
28:55.37
Lou
Yeah I think you're going to. You're going to get some amazing insights from looking at this data now some of it. You know you may have some some ideas on what parts of your game are good. What parts of your game are bad and and directionally you're probably going to be. Be pretty good there but you're going to start to get into some some more detailed data that's going to be extremely helpful to you now I'll tell you that you definitely at the end of every round you want to go through it and you you want to make sure you validate your data. Um, you know Arcos does a really good job at the heavy lifting. Of kind of tracking shots as you go. But after every round I do it after every hole. Um I I typically like kind of have my phone on me and I I open it up and make sure the flag's in the right spot and just check my shots. It takes me 15 seconds you're going to want to do that. Whatever works best for you. But you're definitely goingnna want to do that after every round just to make sure everything's correct the more if your data is absolutely correct and you validated it. That's going to give you the best possible information and I think you're going to find things about your game that are going to be really helpful to you.
29:50.91
dave_gerhardt
Cool.
30:07.10
Lou
Um, and I know with all the players that that I've worked with you know the Princeton team they all use Arcos I've had a number of players that um have gotten insights from their game from arcos from tracking the stats that they otherwise wouldn't have known and it's allowed us to. And focus some of their practice time. Ah and also information for their swing coaches on things that they need to work on and it's how you're going to get better like if you can if you can identify the things that are the weakest. Um and you can focus a little time on those. Um, it's it's ah it's a pathway to getting better and at your level. It's extremely important right? If there's a 20 handicap or a 30 handicap a relative beginner like you know the you know the most important thing for some of them is you know, just make sure you're not hitting four inches behind the ball with your 9 iron like like that's.
30:59.93
dave_gerhardt
Right.
31:03.16
Lou
That's kind of the step 1 for them. But for you like it's really important as ah as a two index to like it's hard for you to shave off. Um you know another couple strokes but you're going to be able to find some nuggets in this data. It's going to help you get there a lot quicker than trying to do it on your own.
31:21.34
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, that's what um, that's what I I was hoping it's cool to hear you say that because for me, it's like it's about knowing what to practice and then also I have a great coach. He's not with me all the time though. And so what I and and and like you said we all have confirmation bias. We all have recency bias I had a great round but I had a.
31:31.53
Lou
Yeah.
31:39.86
dave_gerhardt
Left miss at a bad time but the reality is I actually need to be working on my hundred and in game I can't wait to get some of the data. Um, what this is a I wanted to ask you. This is a lead in from from here. Um, what. What would you say the biggest myth or false belief is that the average. Let's just say all amateur golfers when they go and track their data. What what will you've seen all the data. But what are the biggest myths that that amateurs have about their actual golf games reality versus what they think.
32:04.61
Lou
Yeah, it.
32:13.98
Lou
Yeah, um, well that's ah, there's probably a few ways to answer that I think one of the big ones and and one of the obvious ones is is how far the ball is going and I don't just mean with driver. You know everybody on Twitter hits at three ten in the air with a little buttercut. Ah I mean.
32:26.17
dave_gerhardt
I Love that.
32:31.30
Lou
Sometimes people are you know they're very, they're ambitious about how far they hit their irons on a consistent basis and you know it's important to to understand that there's a. You know there's a range of distances that you hit each of your clubs. Um, and and you're going to be able to get that from something like Arcos um, and it's important to to not always you know pick a club based on the absolute perfect strike. Um, and if you if a perfect strike with your 9 iron goes one fifty three um you know you don't want to if you have 1 53 to ah to a pin that's tucked four yards from the front edge and there's water you have to cover. Probably not a good idea to hit your 9 iron because you have to hit it basically perfect in order to cover that water so you have to understand that there's a range of of distances and I think that's one of the you know one of the biggest issues that that amateurs have and that's why when you look at the data you can see. Yeah, how often they come up short um and some of that coming up short is because it mishids um, but that just kind of folds into what we're talking about here is that each iron has kind of a range of distances. Perfect I absolutely smoked it. It's as good as I can hit it. It's going to go this far.
33:58.15
Lou
Like all right like I didn't really hit that one good. It was you know, really healy it was way on the toe um a little high on the face and and that one is going to go this far. It's important to understand those how often they come out and that is going to. You know, help you hit more greens which we kind of go back to you know the 1 traditional stat that has a lot of importance is hitting more greens and you're going to hit more greens by having a better understanding of how far something like your you know your irons go.
34:28.33
dave_gerhardt
You talk about birdies' so I think that was a good one I was I had a feeling you would say that my interpretation of of that is carry distances. What a what a shocker I'm gonna make a broad generalization majority of people that listen this podcast and. Your Twitter followers are men. It's so surprising to at all that men overestimating how long something is or how far something goes. It's just you know it's like everybody everybody that I'm thirty six years old everybody that I know that played high school baseball through eighty five and I played high school baseball and that was that was not the case. Not everybody through 85.
34:46.52
Lou
Yeah, yeah.
34:55.70
Lou
Ah, um.
35:06.30
dave_gerhardt
I wrote that down on my nose. Ah everybody on Twitter hits at three ten with a buttercut.
35:08.91
Lou
Ah, everybody and yeah so I think it's I think it's universal. Ah you know in golf is is that um I think we when it comes to how far we hit it. We sometimes tend to remember just our our best strikes and we don't necessarily remember our worst strikes but I would want people to think of.
35:23.74
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah.
35:27.87
Lou
Distance in terms of ah of a range of you know what is ah you know a mediocre at a bad shot. How far is that going to go and then how far is a perfect striking to go and that's kind of my range and it's important to understand that and make sure you're kind of factoring that in. But yeah I think we're we're all guilty of that. I'm sometimes even guilty of that Even though you know it's It's hard to sometimes it's hard to to move away from that. Um, but it's something that will help you if you if you get better at it.
35:56.24
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, well I think I think the reason why we're guilty of it is is because it's easy to have the the default to like the the the 1.5 smash factor the perfectly center that you know that just doesn't happen all the time. Um, next thing I want to talk about is.
36:10.62
Lou
It doesn't yeah.
36:14.18
dave_gerhardt
Birdies This is one that you shed a lot of light on for me and I'm I'm trying to get down to scratch on the i' on that journey and I'm like got to make more birdies I play great when I make more birdies but you actually mythbuted that one and you don't need to make more birdies I've seen you talk about oftentimes scratch players. They're going to play very.
36:26.20
Lou
The.
36:33.61
dave_gerhardt
Boring golf. Can you talk about the the unnecessary quest for more birdies.
36:38.72
Lou
Yeah, um, birdies is they are not the key to lower scores and a lot of people think that they are you know the key to lower scores is you're trying to go from you know Casey's said he's ah he's a 10 the key going from ah a 10 down to a scratch isn't more birdies I can I can look up real quick. So a scratch player averages 2.2 birdies per round. Um, how many birdies per round. Do you think a 10 index averages Casey I'm going let you answer that one. How much. Ah.
37:08.00
Casey Ford
Um I can tell you you don't have to ask 0 less than one.
37:15.25
Lou
They average less than one so they average 0.7. Um, so there's one point five birdies per round difference between a scratch and a 10 um, so there's 10 shots of skill difference between a scratch and a 10 and 1.5 of those is because of more birdies. Um, that. Is not. You know that's not going to move the needle. Um, what's going to move the needle is reducing the the number of of doubles others and and bogies and taking your bogies and turning those into pars turning your doubles into bogies turning your triples and others into doubles. It's it's reducing the big numbers that's where the gains are. It's not in more birdies. Um the best players on the planet pj to players. They average 3 point 7 birdies around um their own. They only make 3 more birdies per round than a 10 index on the average. A lot better than 10 index players. There's you know 20 plus shots of difference there depending on the course. Um and only three of those are because of more birdies so that's not the key to to getting to getting that handicap down. It's reducing. The the non-par numbers.
38:31.39
Casey Ford
Want to ask you about a a couple of the professional players too. But first is there a player that you see I know it's it's probably hard question up being fully in everyone's camp but is there a player you see that really embraces what you're talking about most I think maybe the easy answer is Matt Fitzpatrick but um, is there someone you just heard from through quotes or or just observing that really leans into the stuff you're preaching.
38:53.36
Lou
Well I think there's a lot of players now that are that are are moving towards that and a lot that you wouldn't know so arcoss just partnered with Eduardo Mulinnari so they announced that last week. Um, ah Malininari he you know former writer cupper former us amateur champion. Um, he was the brains behind the analytics with the european writer cup team. He's now the european rid cup vice captain and he's now part of arcrkos and he works with 35 more than 35 different tour players including Matthew Fitzpatrick Matthews 1 of his clients. Fitzpatrick he works with Hovlund. He works with Nelly Korda on the Lpga and you know more than 30 other tour pros and there's a lot of tor pros that are now you know understanding the benefit of looking at. Game through the lens of this data to help them focus where they need to focus to help them get better to improve their strategy and you know he works with them on all of those things and that's just going to continue to grow. Um and this partnership with arcoss is going to I think accelerate some of that. And you're going to see a lot of additional players kind of come into the mix. Not only at the pgator level but at levels below that um as we move forward. So it's just going to. You know we're at the very beginning. We're kind of scratching the surface with what's going to be possible with analytics.
40:23.15
Lou
Um, and we are kind of at the beginning of it being just a a mainstay in the game for all the players out there. You know as some of the older players which I hate to stereotype but some of them are are less likely to be. You know analytics inclined if I can put it that way but the younger players they are very much different than that you know as ah as a stereotype and as you know some of the older players age off the tours and the younger ones come On. It's just going to continue to expand. And accelerate. So It's It's really cool. It's awesome to have eduardo kind of part of the Arccos family now. Um, and that's not to say I won't try to sabotage his work with the European Rider cup team I've already told him that directly a couple times.
41:09.32
Casey Ford
Um, well, it's so funny. It's funny. You bring him up to as an example because I'm a big ah professional golf consumer I've been a huge fan of the rer cup for years and years too and this is the first year this past this past rer cup that I remember um, they've always talked about setup. And advantages. But the first year I heard so much analytics used into the argument of I guess eduardo is responsible for making those those fairways so narrow in ah in rome because they looked at the data right? And said the americans advantage is approach shots right? wedges. So let's get as many of those out of the out of their hands as we can. This is the first. First writer cup I've heard so much of the analytics part I've heard it referred to in the past about set up advantages for home in a way but that's that's an interesting point. Um, on tour I want to talk a little bit about scottie schuffler because we're we're recording this on a day after Bay Hill where he just won yesterday on on the back of a pretty impressive. Strokes gain putting around on Sunday but leading into that I'm not sure people or the average fan really understands what his struggles really been and how unprecedented unprecedented it is. Can you just dive into a little bit of. Scotty Shuffler probably the last six months or or really this season. Um, just how unprecedented is his ball striking versus his struggles with the putter which hopefully he's back on track. But if he does get that putter back on track. What does that? What does that mean for his game and and the tor.
42:34.95
Lou
Yeah I mean I think it's been a little misleading. Um I definitely think it's been a smidge misleading like going into this I don't have it in front of me but I want to say he was losing. Like maybe six tenths of a shot per round with his putter I think jt has been putting worse than him. You know this year over the last six months and and not hearing a whole lot about Jt's putter right? Um, yeah.
42:58.17
dave_gerhardt
And he's doing it in joggers. So it's like 10 times worse. Yeah.
43:04.56
Lou
Yes I don't know if the joggers are better or worse but that is an accurate statement. He's doing them doing that in joggers.
43:07.24
Casey Ford
Is it the ball striking that creates such a a difference that it makes it so much more the spotlight more on scotty for this versus a JT because his strokes gain approach and off the t has been so great.
43:09.61
dave_gerhardt
Um.
43:17.42
Lou
Yeah, yeah, yeah, his ball striking has been unbelievable. So there's definitely a gap and and he is. He's clearly been you know top 5 in the leaderboard countless times and and had a really you know sketchy putter. Um, but it's not like he you know people think he's putting like the typical 10 index. He's not I can promise you casey that if you and Scotty had a punning contest like you don't stand a chance. He's going to beat you one handed with his eyes closed like and sort of the thought process out. There was. He was putting like the typical weekend warrior and that just wasn't the case. He's the number 1 player in the world. He was getting a lot of highlights. You know on his on his putting and he missed some putts from you know from in tight in in some situations and it you know. Those kind of things do really well on Twitter right? when you get the best player in the world to miss a two and a half footer that's going to get some views and and those views kind of amplified it. Not to say that he didn't have a lot of opportunity to improve his putting. You know he he did um and if he does get a hot putter. Um. He is going to be devastatingly good. That was one of the reasons why Tiger was so good. Um, his putter was phenomenal. Um, you know in the shotlink era he's like top 20 strokes gain putting in the shotlink era like on ah on a strokes gain per put basis and.
44:48.55
Lou
You know when you factor in some other things that make it tougher to putt like the later in the day that you play the harder. It is to put you know and scotty certainly deals with that because he's a good player and he plays a lot of late you know late tea times on the weekend and tiger was very much like that. Um, when you factor when you factor that in and how good of a ball strikeker tiger was and how good of a ball strikeker scotty is that it's tougher to put well when you are that good of a ball striker and you're performing that. Well. Ah, so there's a a little bit of a relationship between strokes gained approach and strokes gain putting the better your strokes gained approach is the harder. It is to putt. There's a few nuances that go into that but you know Scott is a little bit behind the eight ball with having so many late rounds. Um, and being such a good ball striker that it kind of makes his putting think of it like having kind of a bad you know a perpetual bad weather draw for your putter is is a way to think of it. Um, but boy if he can if he can go to gaining you know three tenths of a shot per round with his putter. He is going to. Win a lot of golf tournaments.
46:01.20
Casey Ford
And another thing I want to get your take on in the professional game ah is just the the whole thing around the rollback. Um I'll let you go just just let us know your thoughts. Um, but but but but well I would just say specifically I've heard a lot about rollback from a ton of people online. But.
46:08.34
Lou
Oh boy, oh boy we have 6 hours we got 6 hours here how much time do we got.
46:10.63
dave_gerhardt
I Said oh boy.
46:20.97
Casey Ford
I'm interested to something specifically specifically to your industry is just this I don't think a lot of people are talking about the data set you guys work off of is based on a certain equipment ball manufacturing so just in in what you do? How would that affect you and again. I'll give you the floor.
46:41.29
Lou
Ah, boy, there's so many different directions we can go with this. You know it doesn't really you know impact me in any way shape or form directly. You know as is what what I'm doing with the numbers. Um, but it impacts golfers right? We're we're all going to get shorter. Ah, prose a couple years earlier than us and then the amateurs what 2030 so pros Twenty January First twenty twenty eight and then we're supposed to be January first Twenty thirty um and it to me. It's ah it's just it's a bad. Idea on so many different levels at the amateur amateurs need more distance not less so making us shorter is a bad idea. Um, we have a problem now where people are are playing golf courses too long for how far they hit the ball. Like the usga started the t at forward campaign in 2011 and that's because too many golfers are playing t's that are too long for how far they hit it so they started this campaign to encourage people to tee it forward. That was what that was what their entire campaign was about they did that in conjunction with the pga of America. Um, and amateur distance hasn't changed since then it's basically flat since then so doing this at the amateur level makes absolutely no sense doing it at the professional level in my opinion also makes absolutely no sense. Um, and they're going to.
48:09.20
Lou
You know I've heard a lot of ah you know reasoning around this where well you know the you know people didn't didn't want to bifurcate so we have to do it for everybody. We're just we're just kind of listening to what you said you didn't want it. You didn't want it for only pros so we're just going to do it for everyone. If you rewind the usga kind of came out and said we're we're thinking about doing this and they got some feedback and the feedback was we don't want you to do this and then the usga said all right? Um, we're only going to do this for pros. Um, and and then they got feedback and the. Industry as a whole said. Nope we don't want you to do that either and then so the usga said well you know what we're going to do it for everybody. Um, and to me it's just ah, such a shortsighted decision that makes makes no sense in my opinion. Um, and I think it's going to do more. More harm than good at the amateur level. Um, and at the tour level like they haven't really thought this through like many of their other decisions. There's not a whole lot of science going on over there and Dr Sasha Mackenzie who is a bio mechanist probably the smartest guy in golf he brought up a really interesting point that. You know they are very, you're very likely going to see tour prose very quickly overcome this rollback because they are going to be allowed to swing faster right now. How far offline tour pros hit the ball is mostly.
49:43.20
Lou
Ah, function of how far the ball goes. So if you think of yourself standing on a te dispersion like how far left and right you hit it. You're so you're standing kind of at the point of a triangle and and your dispersion is kind of triangle shaped and it's going to be a certain width up at the top. And that width is dictated mostly by how far the ball goes so right now you have you know, almost ah you know, hundred creeping up on 116 mile an hour average swing speed on tour. Um and the average distance on tour is about three hundred yards.
50:19.47
Lou
They roll everybody back to 87? What's going to happen now is that dispersion is going to get tighter right? So the dispersion is going to get tighter which now means players are going to be able to swing faster to get the ball back out to three hundred yards and and dispersion is going to get wider. But it's going to It's going to kind of go back to where it was so you're probably going to very very quickly see average swing speed on tor go from one 16 to 22 21 in a very very short period of time right? and and they're put they're actually putting more priority on. Distance with a rollback and there's a lot of folks out there that say you know we need to roll the ball back to reduce the importance on distance and that's just not accurate like even in the usga's own. Um. Own data the usga the the distance insight report the 100 page document that everyone thinks of that's actually a summary from about 60 different subreports and one of the subreports in there looked at the importance of distance and accuracy over the years and distance was most important. In the 80 s and and that's because what happens is the farther you get from the hole the bigger the gap in scoring gets and so let me put that in context context. Um, the the shortest hitters.
51:49.58
Lou
Call it about forty yards shorter than the longest hittters on tour and let's say it's a power 4 and the longest hitter is going to have one hundred and twenty yards remaining the shortest hitter is going to have one 60 now if we roll it back. And let's just make the math easy and let's say we roll it back twenty yards and we roll it back and now it's one forty verse one eighty the average shots to hole out from one 20 to 61 is smaller than it is from 41 to 81 so as we push the entire field back. What's going to happen is the scoring gap is going to get a little bit bigger between the long and the short hitters which is going to put more of a premium on distance I could literally talk about this for another 10 hours um but it's just it's mind numbing to me that. They made this decision. Um, you know it's it's so much of their own data I could stand here and I've I've talked about this I've written about this I could stand here for hours and give you data from their own studies that refute so many of the things you hear. Usga leadership saying it just makes absolutely no sense to me what you know the direction that they're going down here.
53:08.48
dave_gerhardt
This is great because you just ruined Casey's afternoon the data guy comes with the data and now he's questioning everything he ever thought that's right Lu Stagner Patrick can't lay all say don't roll it back case like that's what we've been talking about hey okay rooku.
53:20.23
Casey Ford
Um, I was going to say it makes sense why Rory is for this right.
53:22.69
Lou
Hundred percent yeah
53:25.96
dave_gerhardt
We got to let Lou go but I can't let him off. We got to ask you this question every week we do a segment case and I ask inner o b it's like buy or sell we asked this one last week. You've tweeted about it but I want to ask you about it on a par three tee it up or no t is it okay to go no t should you always tee up.
53:42.97
Lou
Um, I would say tee it up like from the people that I've talked to about this. Um you are. You're going to get more grass clippings and stuff in between the club face and the ball. Um, when the ball is sitting on the ground. Versus being on a T and and so you know not teeing it up introduces you know more stuff in between the golf ball and your face which then leads to you know the ball maybe not spinning how it typically would.
54:17.20
dave_gerhardt
Interesting.
54:19.50
Lou
Or the ball being knocked offline a little bit more than it typically would so I would tell you to to tea it up.
54:24.19
dave_gerhardt
That's a great answer I had not I had not thought of that angle case um or no, no, it's great. It's great makes total sense I want clean face contact I will never not tee it up again.
54:25.41
Casey Ford
Well now you've ruined Dave's day
54:30.78
Lou
Um, yeah.
54:34.24
dave_gerhardt
You know and I that's why you just do the Laura the ah lo posted about this last time. Let's just do the Laura Davies just get on the first t to do I think you posted like how about just use a t.
54:40.90
Lou
Oh man, Yeah, that's crazy like I wouldn't do that? Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm not not not a fan of that. But um, yeah, use use a T I would definitely say use the T Yeah I forget.
54:52.35
dave_gerhardt
Are Lou we'll let you go you you got
54:55.45
Lou
I I forget who this is an important one. So I forget to do this but somebody has some really really fascinating and like slow motion video of iron shots from a T versus a turf and like and you can see in slow motion. How much Debris gets picked up even when you're making.
55:04.91
dave_gerhardt
Are you.
55:13.27
Lou
Pretty good contact like I'm not saying you're hitting two inches behind the ball but I'll have to find that I'll send it to you because it it certainly will change how you think about you know instead of just tossing a ball on the ground um on a part 3 like you probably should tee it up.
55:16.89
dave_gerhardt
Cool.
55:24.87
dave_gerhardt
Yeah I think it just a great answer because I I like anything in life I think having a reason for why or why not to do something is very useful. So um Lou thank you man you you delivered your awesome go follow lolu stagner on Twitter um.
55:32.73
Lou
Sure.
55:41.96
dave_gerhardt
He put this is where we get all this stuff from him and John Sherman are my 2 must must follow guys if you want to you know, get better at golf outside of the golf swing. Thanks Lou enjoy the rest of your day. We'll be rooting for the the tigers go tigers man all right see dude thank you.
55:48.74
Lou
Thanks guys, Appreciate you having me go tigers.
55:53.33
Casey Ford
Thanks Lou.