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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Andrea McGeachin (00:01.853)
Hi everybody, welcome to the iGaming Daily. This is our NeoSurf takeover where we've got various people to come and talk, which is, I'm the one that's lucky one because I've got some amazing people to come and talk to us. And today we've got Shelly White today from RGC, which I'll explain what acronym means, or she will in a minute. Just before we go into the conversation, Shelly, it's important to talk about the iGaming sponsor, which is...
OptiMove, it's the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market. 56 % of the EGR Power 50 personalized player experiences with OptiMove. And as a special offer, OptiMove are offering new clients a free first month when they buy OptiMove for their information and claim the free month, go to theoptimove .com slash SBC. Links will also be left at the end of the podcast episode description as well. So good luck with that if you want to go and see that. Shelly, hello.
Shelley White (01:00.494)
Good morning, Andrea, good afternoon, wherever we're in different parts of the world, aren't we? Yes.
Andrea McGeachin (01:05.053)
Wherever we are. Yes. Luckily, we do tend to see each other face to face, but this is across the Atlantic today, across the Atlantic. It's really good to chat with you. I always love our chats and I get inspired by you and your team. And I know this is your final year at RGC, so we should talk about that and what you're going to be doing in the future. But I'd much like to talk about the accomplishments and what it's about.
And just before the start, I've known you for a long time and I've known about RGC for a while. And I came to your Discovery Conference a couple of months ago and I can't quite get over how engaging that whole conference was. And the powerful people that would not just sit and do a normal panel, but would engage and talk and step up. And I just found that the whole thing was...
in different levels from you had a politician to a science doctor to a whole different level of different conversation. And I'd like to congratulate you and your team because I really did feel as I went off to the airport to leave, felt it was a very engaging show on a subject that's so important. So congratulations on that. I don't know if you want to add to that conference conversation or not. So. Yeah.
Shelley White (02:25.71)
Of course I do, Andrea. I mean, thank you. I was thrilled. We were thrilled that you were there and part of that important conversation.
You and I, as you said, we met quite a few years ago at another conference and I heard you talking about NeoSurf and your company's commitment to payments and responsible gambling, consumer protection. And no one else was talking about that at the time in the payments world. And that was the beginning of our engagement. But back to Discovery, yes, at the end of Discovery we held, Discovery's been going on for 20 years.
But, you know, as the name says, discovery is about exploring. It's about debating. It's about learning. And there's so much to learn in this space of responsible gambling. The industry, as we all know, is evolving so rapidly and it's so complex. And responsible gambling has to evolve as well. And it's also an ecosystem, right?
Andrea McGeachin (03:22.173)
Yeah.
Shelley White (03:33.262)
There are so many different players in this art responsible gambling industry space. And so to properly have an RG culture.
We need to hear from all those voices. So in terms of discovery, yes, we did have a multitude of diversity in terms of the people that we were hearing from to discuss and debate the issues that are current and future trends in responsible gambling. And payments is an important part of that, an extremely important part of that.
Andrea McGeachin (04:01.469)
Yeah.
Andrea McGeachin (04:07.741)
Yeah, it's a big, you know, it's a personal passion of mine to try and encourage the payments industry that want to be part of this ecosystem to do a little bit more than just put something on a website. I think it's ticking, we go on about ticking a box and I think that I do talk to more payments companies and I do hear encouraging statements more than I did maybe a couple of years ago. But I agree, it's the whole ecosystem. Because if we are engaged in the industry and the sector, it is important.
But you're right, I think the idea of this evolving is absolutely true. There was a lot at your conference and things that you've often talked about in your team about the education, an education that starts much younger. I know there was a big focus on that and I really enjoyed some of the sessions on that. I wonder if you could just talk about how that priority comes together and what you're putting together on that as well.
Shelley White (05:08.558)
Sure. So, RGC is an acronym. It means the Responsible Gambling Council. And the name was changed in the 1980s to reflect...
Andrea McGeachin (05:13.629)
Mmm.
Shelley White (05:21.166)
the evidence and the kind of thinking that Bob Ladeucer and Howard Schaeffer and others were talking about in terms of creating a safer gambling environment. We needed to ensure that all stakeholders in this ecosystem were playing their respective roles and responsibilities. And we still believe that.
at the Responsible Gambling Council. And that's why we engage. We're both a B2B and a B2C organization. But we do put a premium on prevention education. And that applies to both consumers, non -players and players, public consumers in general, as well as players, as well as the industry.
the B to C part and that includes everyone from anyone who influences or has a role to play in this in terms of educating them about what needs to be in place, what's foundational to ensure sustainability, to ensure a safer gambling experience, to ensure the prevention of gambling harms. And like we said right off the top, it is an evolution. The way that it looked in the 1980s and 90s and 2000s is very different.
different than the way that it looks now. But back to prevention. So we do work. We start with youth and young adults, and then we work with the whole spectrum of ages right up to older adults. And it's about understanding also the unique characteristics of each of those.
target markets and how we need to adapt our prevention education to align with their beliefs, their values, their culture, and ensuring that we're providing them with evidence -informed messages and practices and processes that align and that are relevant and are meaningful to them. We also take an ethnocultural approach as well because we also know that ethnocultural beliefs and values also
Andrea McGeachin (07:27.453)
Mm.
Shelley White (07:45.6)
play an important role in what is meaningful and relevant with respect to responsible gambling and how people play. So, you know, in terms of, you know, really lean into youth and young adults because we believe that that's where it starts and that's where we can have the most influence. So we're in high schools with kids talking about what gambling is, what gaming is, the intersection, what the risks are, how to mitigate those risks to prepare.
them to start preparing them because they're thinking about it, they're talking about it with their friends and with family and hearing about it in ads etc. and we want to ensure that they're getting the best possible information and we do that both face to face but we also do it digitally. We have a fantastic digital game called House of Wisdoms so that they can learn by gaming. We also have resources for parents on our website as well so that parents can we can provide some information for
parents in terms of helping them to have those conversations. And then with young adults, you know, in some jurisdictions gambling starts at 18 and other jurisdictions it's 21, etc. And ensuring that they're getting information and know what the tools are and what randomization is, random play, addressing things like illusion of control. And we do that in both through traditional media, face to face, as well as through social media as well.
so that we're capturing the audience, you know, we're connecting with the audience. Yeah.
Andrea McGeachin (09:20.189)
It's, it is, it is, I mean, it's like grassroots is a tough thing, isn't it? So, I mean, the word RG, which in Europe has been social responsibility before, but I think in the business area, people are beginning to all talk about RG and because of the U .S., it's become even stronger. Although I sometimes think that the responsible gaming word could be a bit softer for consumers, but that's my view. And I know it's shared by a few other people, but it's not something that's just,
turned up in the last couple of years. It's been going a long time of how to help before you even start to become on the online gambling. It's quite a big support, I think, to the operators who get the burden of accountability to the regulator, which they're not shy of taking that, of course. But it is wider than just the regulator. And I think that just for me,
clearly shares the ecosystem of it. And I know that some operators are really trying very, very hard. Here in the UK, we've had, gosh, various renditions. And to be honest, I learned more on my iGaming daily about what the commission was doing here than I could out of the general news, which was interesting. There are different things in different countries, different jurisdictions that are happening on a continual basis. Do you have much...
engagement with different regulators. Because you've got this, you've got, you know, you've been around for a long time and the operators are trying to get there, but the regulators themselves, do they listen to you?
Shelley White (10:53.166)
Yes, yep.
Shelley White (11:02.574)
Definitely and you know, our the responsible gambling council started in Canada and in Ontario and in Canada however over the past seven years we are having conversations and working with regulators in Asia Australia UK Europe the United States we're in you know over 13 different countries and different continents and Yes, the regulators
Andrea McGeachin (11:04.253)
good.
Shelley White (11:31.822)
in those jurisdictions are very interested in understanding what best practices are in regulatory standards. And particularly, you know, we're seeing a...
very strong interest in evidence. What is the evidence that these particular regulatory standards are the right ones and that have the kind of impact that we want to have? So that's that and that's very encouraging. That's very, very positive. And then we also work with the regulators to ensure that they to support them to ensure that they've got the right policies and practices in place and that they're integrated with their overall strategy. Because what we're hearing from the operators is that
they want to create an entertaining product but they also want to have a sustainable relationship with their customers and they want to be highly respected as a reputable industry. That is that is
Andrea McGeachin (12:24.925)
Yes.
Shelley White (12:34.766)
heavily regulated to ensure that those player protections are in place. What we do hear from regulators and operators is that for some, the term responsible gambling resonates. For others, it's things like player protection or harm prevention. It doesn't matter what the terminology is. It's what the philosophy is and what the commitment is to ensuring that there is safer gambling and consumer protection in place. That's what's most important.
Andrea McGeachin (13:01.053)
Yeah, yeah. And it is about the sustainability for everybody. For the player to enjoy and for the business to continue to work in a clean space as opposed to it going underground, which would be a shame. And we all know that there are areas where that's still going on. I'm trying to stop that in a different game, different issue. But yeah. And...
Shelley White (13:05.166)
Yes.
Andrea McGeachin (13:28.829)
Do you get engaged with the regulators on trying to influence the best way to work with this? I'm actually specifically thinking at the moment of in Europe, there is a lot of implemented rules that have had some involvement with the operators and understanding, but there's an overriding position of saying they're just putting in rules.
where I find at the moment in the US, and gosh, the Ontario regulator is very engaging, far more engaging and working in that engagement and involvement. Whereas, I mean, it's taken parliamentary pressure of the horse racing to some extent to get the commission here in the UK to rethink of how to do those affordability checks. Not that anybody thinks that the affordability checks are wrong, it's how to implement them.
timeline and the practicality. So do you get engaged in all of that stuff as well?
Shelley White (14:33.966)
Very much so, and that's the reason why it's so important to have a international perspective on this and to have conversations. So if I think about all the conversations we've had with Brigitte Sand in Denmark, for example, when she was the regulator there, and the current regulator and the work that they're doing to continue to...
change and evolve their regulations and take an evidence -based approach. Norway is doing phenomenal work. And we know the UK is, you know, they are updating their gaming act to ensure that it is relevant. And, you know,
You've got to, you know, it's not like a cookie cutter approach that you can take because it really is dependent upon what your legislation is that's in place, what your culture and values and beliefs, what other institutions you have in place. But I can tell you there's lots and lots of discussions and sharing going on between regulators in the UK and Europe and the United States and Canada. And in fact, I'm going to be at a meeting of regulators.
Andrea McGeachin (15:21.053)
No.
Shelley White (15:47.232)
next month in the United States with the UK and Canada is going to be there and we're going to be talking about regulatory best practices and so there is very much of an interest in this and a commitment to this and and people understand that you know we don't have to completely reinvent the wheel that there are common regulations that are important to have in place and that will have impact. We've just public
Andrea McGeachin (16:15.005)
and learn from each other. And will they learn from each other? It's so positive, Charlotte. Because you go around and you hear so many things that are, God, no, we've got no choice. It's what we've been given. And it's quite a negative vibe sometimes. Not in the US, actually, but from Europe. But to hear that that's going on is a really positive thing to hear. And I'm sure operators listening to this, and they may know, yeah, sorry, I've talked over you, sorry.
Shelley White (16:16.526)
Pardon me? And learn from each other. exactly. Yes.
Shelley White (16:37.486)
I think so too. I think so too. I think this is very positive.
Andrea McGeachin (16:43.389)
I think I found it really positive. Now you and I have debated, and this is my platform to get up on my pedestal, and so please the rest of the industry and payments come to the table and take part. And I know that you have your own opinions of that and from the council's point of view, when you talk about the ecosystem, are you seeing a bit more evidence than just, I mean, we're there and we...
We listen to you, we talk to regulators, and we believe that we're an active part of this industry. I don't mind sitting on a panel and waving the flag and saying, come on, payments people, don't just tick a box, let's be part of it, and we can bring tools to the table. We can add to the affordability information, and if we've got the information, let's share it.
Are you seeing the growth of that or is it still a bit slow and do I need to shout a bit louder still?
Shelley White (17:42.894)
Andrew, you have been influential, but please continue to be influential. And yes, we are seeing operators come to the table and understand the importance of integrating the new digital payments technology with their overall RG strategy and talking about that. There's still work that needs to be done, obviously, but we're seeing, you know, this this acknowledgement and we're seeing, you know, at.
Andrea McGeachin (17:46.429)
Yeah.
Shelley White (18:09.166)
some changes being made. RGC is going to make some changes in terms of, and this is why we're very interested in continuing our work with you and with other operators and regulators in terms of actually updating the RG check accreditation payment standards to reflect best practices in responsible gambling regarding payments. We know that with payments, with digital payments, with the cashless approach,
it's not as tangible as putting that $20 bill in a slot machine, for example.
And so people can lose track of how much money they're spending. And also the pace of play we know is faster as well with cashless. So what do we need to do to put those safeguards in place for players? And we see things like, you know, people being able to get reports on how much they've spent and getting messages in terms of what their spend is, et cetera. But maybe you can share with me, too, some things that you're aware of in terms of
of what's happening in this space to create a safer experience for the players.
Andrea McGeachin (19:22.653)
Yeah, I mean, we've gone a long way of trying to understand this whole business about self -limits. And we talk about, you will see, as you know, our North American CEO, we've talked through and worked with various people and researched, we've been doing some serious research going on now. I mean, you've got to talk to the player in the player's language. And there are various RG heads in operators around that we engage with as well. Some amazing people.
And the language is the key thing. It's a bit like, you know, when you're a teenage, if you tell them not to do something, then they'll try a way to do it. You know, you've got to be on, you've got to engage in the right language. And this, well, you've seen the, you'll see it even better when we're with you in June at the SBC show. The dashboard of what you're spending and where you've spent.
and the frequency and letting you understand the tangibility of what you are doing. And you have been able to, and you talked about before about being, you've got games to teach gaming, the dashboard can start to be something, well, what is it you want to do? How could you want to, do you want to be able to see how you're performing? So we're actually, the dashboard that we use within our app is already evolving into enabling the player to use like a slider.
of where is it you really want to be at. And then there is aggregated data behind that to start looking at behavior and the behavior followed. Does that work? And sharing that with operators. And I'm a massive believer in if you've got the data on that that can help, then let's share that data to help further. And I know that operators want the data. And so I will...
clearly stay on top of the pedestal. And I think organizations like yourself take that to the next level because you have an objectivity piece. Because we are very careful at Neosurf not to make this a sales pitch. It's not about that. This is about the fact that we want it to be sustainable. And so it's really important. Gosh, we're running out of time. Yeah, go ahead. No, we've got a few minutes left.
Shelley White (21:38.03)
Mm -hmm.
Shelley White (21:42.99)
Andrew, can I respond to that? just I just want to respond to I just want to respond to what you've just said, because what you've just talked about is really interesting to us. Because what you're talking about is actually what we think is the next opportunity in terms of the intake for the player in terms of player behavior around the integration of digital health and well being and being conscious.
people being conscious about how much time they're spending on devices and online, etc. combined with financial literacy, combined with being aware of
Andrea McGeachin (22:10.237)
Yes. Yes.
Shelley White (22:23.566)
what your income is, what your priorities are, and how you're going to spend your money. And I think that the integration of that digital health and well -being and the financial literacy approach has tremendous potential in terms of providing individuals with the information they need to make informed choices about their gambling activity going forward.
Andrea McGeachin (22:53.981)
Yes, you know, I won't name her because I haven't got my permission to do so, but if she's listening, she'll know exactly who I'm talking about. And we were at the symposium in New York and she's one of the heads of RG in American operators. And she was saying about from the payments point of view, the wager starts with a deposit. Before you're going to go, it's not just think about the wager, it's are you going to put the money in?
So there's many steps we can do the better. And if we're all working together and it's sort of consistent in how to help and people start to understand that, then we're all being part of that. And it's such a powerful message to say, which is everybody has something to deliver to protect, support and sustain the business in a great place. I have to say, we are near the end of this, but.
You're retiring as CEO this year. You announced it in the end. So you're going to be doing different things for yourself, traveling still, I hope.
Shelley White (23:55.502)
Yes, I am. Yes.
Shelley White (24:04.558)
Yeah, traveling and I hope to still be involved in the industry in some way. Andrea, I'd love to sit on a board of an organization that is committed to responsible gambling and continue to have some influence that way because I really do believe that responsible gambling must be a priority. It must be integrated into an organization's strategy and sustainability plans. I think there's tremendous, I'm really encouraged by those in the industry.
industry who are already implementing ESG reporting because I think that that is a tremendous leadership position and tremendous signal in terms of the overall commitment to ESG. So leadership is key for all stakeholders in the industry. We need to continue to focus on prevention. And so I'm looking forward to continuing to play a role in some way on that front.
Andrea McGeachin (24:46.301)
Yeah.
Andrea McGeachin (24:59.293)
Well, that's good news. That is good news. Okay. So can I thank you? It's a shame that we're not sitting around a dinner table and chit chatting, but it's lovely to see you. Nobody else can see us because it's a podcast, but it's, as ever, it's lovely and it's so inspiring because what you guys do at RGC is inspiring and you just keep going and keep going. So it's fantastic. Thank you very much for coming along.
I will see you soon. Thanks very much.
Shelley White (25:32.27)
Thanks, Andrea. It was a real pleasure and look forward to seeing you again soon and sharing our love of good food.
Andrea McGeachin (25:38.685)
yes.