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Hello and welcome to the Insights and Sounds podcast, a podcast centered around classical music. Join Dr. John Sinclair, and explore composers past and present, their works, and an occasional classical music informational episode.
Dr. Crozier Interview_Sinclair
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Dr. Sinclair: [00:00:00] Hello, good people. I bet you wonder where I've been. Well, we took a little bit of a hiatus at the end of the festival. but it's time to be back and I'm glad to have you listening again and do we have a treat for you today and talking about a premier of a new piano concerto?
So allow me to introduce you, my guest. I have the distinct pleasure today of talking to a great colleague and a fabulous musician, Dr. Daniel Crozier, and we're talking about a new piece he's written that the Bach Festival is gonna premiere at the end of this April.
What I know about Dan Crozier is he's a master musician and just a super skilled composer, and every time I look at one of his works, I'm just blown away with the technical mastery and also the the deep thought process that goes into it.
So I am happy to, welcome to our podcast today, [00:01:00] Dan Crozier. Welcome, Dan.
Dr. Crozier: Thank you, John. I'm happy to be here.
Dr. Sinclair: So let's start writing with some questions. , I've been looking at the score, having a great time, , studying it and , finding it's gonna be a great challenge, but a worth every bit of worth the time.
So, can you tell me what inspired you to write this piano piece? Or maybe more specifically, uh, is there a moment or an experience that sparked the idea?
Dr. Crozier: Actually there is, , I didn't put all the aspects together from the beginning, but they started to coalesce and the first thing was a visit I made to, , the Art Institute in Chicago, which has a beautiful collection.
And the first room I walked into in that museum was the, , Spanish late Renaissance in Baroque area, and there's this huge painting of St. Francis on the wall, , painted by Al Greco. And it's, [00:02:00] I wasn't even that familiar with this period of art really at the time. But, , I was blown away by the paintings of both El Greco and Zurbaran, who, who is another.
Important Spanish painter who was in that exhibition. And, um,, the use of light and dark, the Roro effect in these paintings. , and they're massive. They're, you know, a big part of the wall. A lot of these paintings are with a kind of a surreal aspect to them. , they're sacred subjects. The ones that interested me most were the paintings of St.
Francis by both of these painters. But, , there's a surreal aspect to them that links them a little bit to another favorite artist of mine from Spain, who's Salvador Dali. And, , I linked those things together and I thought someday I have to respond to this musically. Now, this was when I was, traveling as a student out to Aspen.
And I, I took a lot of long [00:03:00] train trips and this one stopped in Chicago and I had a little time and I walked to the museum and it just left a lasting impression.
Dr. Sinclair: wow, what a, what a powerful, memory of that. Uh, you know, it reminds me, I. Of, um, the influence of visual art had on, on people like wc. I mean, it really transformed how they thought of their art. So, th that's fascinating to me. And I, I agree that El Greco kind of reminds me of an earlier version of Salvador Ali.
I mean, it's, there's some real similarities with that, at least for me. Now. I know I'm a novice in the art world, but, but I sure like it
Dr. Crozier: Well, me too. I, I'm a, I don't know a whole lot about art, but, it just, it hit me hard when I saw that and just made me think, oh, I've gotta respond musically.
Dr. Sinclair: Well, this idea must have been rolling around for a long time
then.
Yeah. So, with that in mind, can you walk me through the creative process? Uh, how, how did the piece evolve? When did you start and, and finish the composition?
Dr. Crozier: So [00:04:00] it was a long genesis. , I started coming up with musical ideas and I wasn't sure what they were for initially.
I thought maybe it was a straight orchestra piece at first. But these ideas started germinating, oh, maybe even five years ago. And, uh, I was jotting them on the back of other manuscripts. You know, I was working on other things and I thought to myself, oh, here's an idea. I need to use this sometime.
And even on scores of other people's music, , I have the score of a John Williams violin concerto, and I looked at, on the front of it as ideas that ended up in this piece. , so it was taking shape, and then one day I realized this is a piano concerto. That's what this is gonna be. , And a couple of pianists had expressed interest in a concerto and , that inspired me too and I started working on it before I had any performances lined up.
Dr. Sinclair: Well, we've got a great pianist. Uh. Premiering this, , Adam Goldco. I mean, my gosh, is he a, is he a [00:05:00] master?
Dr. Crozier: What a masterful artist. And, , a few years ago, I dunno, maybe three, four years ago, he said. If you write the concerto, could I play it? And, , I said, sure, you can. You know, I'd be honored if you would. More than honored. So
Dr. Sinclair: Well, it's, it's gonna be a, a treat for all of us. , so about five years ago you started it, and I know you finished it, , just probably this last summer.
Dr. Crozier: mm-hmm.
Yep. , I got through the, , the two piano score of the piece. Started orchestrating last summer and just finished the orchestration in January this
Dr. Sinclair: is that how the process you go, you write.
The piano part first, or do you write the score first and then write the second piano part? How, how, which comes first?
Dr. Crozier: So
I was writing the solo part and on two more staves, the orchestra part as a second piano because we always prepare a, a two piano version of it. And that's how I work. And, , not everybody [00:06:00] does that. Some people write straight onto the full score, but for me it's easier to conceive all the material and the form and everything in the two piano version first.
Dr. Sinclair: I am still fascinated by. Ideas and just themes would come up and you would write 'em down. It reminds me of what I've read about how Beethoven would write little things in his book and then you, they would appear later and Brahms would do that. So many great masters, uh, have have done that. And I think it's, it's fascinating to me that it an idea comes and where you don't know where it's gonna go, but it's gonna be somewhere.
, that's, that's always fascinating to me. The other thing that fascinates me about this piano concerto, it is unique in that. It feels like there are times that the piano is really just part of the orchestra. There's certainly times that piano part, , , shines and the piano part is, is is complicated, but it feels much of, it feels ensemble ish.
Dr. Crozier: Mm-hmm. Yeah. , it's a little bit more [00:07:00] modern in that sense. A lot of, , the piano concertos you see on the stage right now that people are writing, we'll use the piano almost as a member of the orchestra.
, the two pieces I'm thinking of, , Aon wrote a piano concerto also. Um, Huang Ro has one. Where the piano behaves in that manner. And my goal was to have, I wanted a traditional piano concerto where the pianist is the star. but I did end up using it as a kind of a, an engine that drives the orchestra in some passages.
You probably know the ones, I mean,
where the exactly
where.
yeah. And, um,
Dr. Sinclair: it creates the energy for the, for
Dr. Crozier: orchestra. Right. Yeah. I, I felt like it was a sort of a, a machine
that's, uh, driving it. Yeah. And the
orchestra at those
Dr. Sinclair: of those cascading moments.
Dr. Crozier: Exactly that, that kind of
music.
Dr. Sinclair: Yeah. That I can see that. It felt, it feels that way. Well then how would you describe the overall mood? Uh, you've talked about tying it to El Greco, [00:08:00] so that obviously influenced it. So how would you describe the mood or the emotion of the concerto?
Dr. Crozier: It, it, I think of it as an emotional journey. So from beginning to end, um. Because of the paintings I was modeling on were mostly about St.
Francis. I was thinking about the journey of St. Francis life and, um, the culmination is the end and, and there's a painting called St. Francis in Ecstasy. And that's the way I was envisioning the last section of the piece. But, , I was thinking about his spiritual journey and there's an, there's an aspect of this piece that's about good and evil, I think.
And I think the audience might hear that.
Dr. Sinclair: I, I think they will too. , and, and that, that kind of takes me, my next question is, so what kind of experience do you expect the audience to receive? or that you're hoping that they will, they will find,
Dr. Crozier: I hope it's a little bit like a, um, a Disney ride that they get on and [00:09:00] can enjoy. I want them to experience that emotional journey
Dr. Sinclair: I think they will. I, I have no doubt they will. So, so the piano concerts, a classical genre, been around for a long, long time and you know, we know concertos being written for a long time. So how do you bounce then the traditional, , with this modern form that we're, we've just discussed,
Dr. Crozier: So, , the traditional concerto would be a three movement piece. , and this is a single movement piece. It's a large single movement. Uh, Revelle had modeled that he has a concerto for the left hand and orchestra, uh, which is a single movement. And I was thinking about that piece. Now his piece is in sections.
This piece is like that. So you could almost say there are movements, but there are large sections, episodes. We're, um, we're on this emotional journey. Things recur, you know, there is cross pollination from one section to the other. Things from the beginning return at the [00:10:00] end. The heart of the piece I think is a theme that comes around Measure 40, and we hear that triumphantly at the very end.
So it's not that you could say that there are three separate sections of the piece, but I do hear it in three larger episodes.
Dr. Sinclair: you know, in studying it, I almost could find the spots where you could stop. You could stop and you could begin, but it really makes a nice transition.
It's, uh, in many ways it is, it is sectionalized with aka it doesn't, it doesn't stop. your description, the journey doesn't end. The journey just keeps going
Dr. Crozier: Right. All the way through. And, um, I'm hoping there's enough momentum to keep the audience engaged the
Dr. Sinclair: oh, I don't think you have to worry about that. This is an exciting piece and just when you think that it's.
It's maybe lost a, a, a little bit of forward motion. Then the piano picks it up and moves you, moves you forward. I've been finding it fascinating in, in the study. So, so what [00:11:00] challenges did you encounter in, in writing this piece?
Dr. Crozier: Well,
I, I was, so if it's a single movement, you're thinking about form all the time and, um, just making a coherent, tight form was my biggest challenge. And there's actually a section, uh, the first version of this that I sent to Adam.
Showed a big cut of a large number of
measures. , and he asked me, well, what was there before? And um, there's a whole other Allegro section that ended up getting cut out.
Kidding. Um, which is about probably five or six minutes of music that's gone now. And I said, well, when you're in town, Adam, I'll show you that.
What ended up on the cutting room floor?
Dr. Sinclair: Well, you good? That's the beginning of
another piece, right?
Maybe so.
Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe you'll find a place, place where that belongs.
Dr. Crozier: But I was in addition to that big cut. There are some other small ones I was trimming, you know, trying to get it as streamlined as it [00:12:00] could be.
Dr. Sinclair: I'm fascinated by the, the composition process of this level.
You know, US conductors, we don't think that deeply, I laugh about that, but it's, but it's true. I mean, it's all of us, , who wave our arms, wish we could do what you do. And we're always just grateful to get a chance to explore those pieces with you. , but, but it always is fascinating, the thought process and the, the depth of which you, you, uh.
Have reached to get this piece. I, I'm, I'm fascinated by it and especially this piece. So, , are there, , specific technical elements you wanted to explore in this piano concerto that is not necessarily known in other works?
Dr. Crozier: Well, just the structures, the main thing. For my own compositional output. It's, it's an interesting kind of a piece because I feel like you probably won't believe me when I say this, but I feel like it's a simplification.
Uh, actually,
Dr. Sinclair: You're right. I it's a hard one. That's a hard one to believe
Dr. Crozier: because it doesn't come across as a [00:13:00] simple piece. No. But, I think it's emotionally more direct and, um, I simplified the overall texture. I felt like my music was getting, I. So contra dense. So a few years ago, the Bach Festival performed a concerto for two clarinets
in orchestra, which I think is more texturally complicated than this one.
, and the audience, if they remember that piece, might have that sense about it, even though this is still complicated, especially because of the density of the piano part itself. And, uh, but I tried to make the orchestra part. The individual orchestra parts aren't that
difficult, I don't think. No, no, they don't. Um,
Dr. Sinclair: complicated.
Dr. Crozier: What's
challenging maybe is ensemble a little bit, you know, the piano has a freedom to it that, the orchestra has, has to gel with. So we'll see how that works. It's a premiere. I mean, we've never heard this so. And I, I have to, I [00:14:00] take my hat off to you and the Bach Festival for your adventurous spirit, because we've done this at least three times with music of
mine where the Bach Festival and, and they're not easy ones to
Dr. Sinclair: Well, you know, I, I, I, I love working with you and I love your music and I'm just, grateful that you, uh, allow us to have that first shot at it.
Uh, this, you know, many of these pieces will go on to be in the cannon, hopefully in years to come of, of, of other work. So anyway, no, no thanks. Needed to us. It's the other way around. So I know some of your other pieces. You've led me into the, that discussion. I know some of your other works. How does this piano concerto compare to your previous work?
And is there an evolution to this composition or is it, you know, most great composers have a piano concerto? Or is this was your time for a piano concerto? Or basically what is different about this than your other pieces or similar?
Dr. Crozier: I think Harmony's [00:15:00] my favorite parameter in many ways, , musically, because it holds the keys to emotion for me, emotional expression, and., I'm interested in now. There are black and white emotions, very clear, ones happy, sad. , But there, there's a huge range in between, happy and sad. And I'm so interested in those, um, transitional emotions and trying to make it match our own psychological experience the best I can.
Dr. Sinclair: I, I, well the audience may not know this, but you are, I don't know whether it's blessed or cursed with synesthesia, right? You see colors, well, you can see colors with sound. Does that play into your harmonic development?
Dr. Crozier: Yes. Um, so I hear tonal centers as particular
colors some are very clear, you know, , but the harmonic language in a piece like this is more complicated.
Now, there. It's always, there are [00:16:00] always tonal centers in here, but they're not always straightforward. It's, um, it's very chromatic music at the same time. So I'm trying to, um, ride over the harmonic direction in a way, , that matches our emotional experience. And so the colors are changing for my, in my
perception and, um, it's my favorite parameter.
I'm always trying to strive further in that, and I think I've found a harmonic language that's really interesting to me.
Dr. Sinclair: Oh, it is interesting. It's interesting to me too. There's some,
you
take us on an adventure that I'm not expecting sometimes that chord. , and it's, and it's, it's, it's a juicy cord. It's wonderful, , but it's not quite where I thought it was gonna go. And that's what I, I love the adventureness of that. I love , the surprise element.
And so, back to one thing about the synesthesia. So as you're perfecting this, you're actually, [00:17:00] and because there's a, a at times not as. As concrete of a tonal center. Do you f find the colors meld?
Dr. Crozier: they do.
Yeah. It's like kaleidoscopic.
Dr. Sinclair: How fun, ma That must be fun.
Dr. Crozier: And it's not overwhelming. People have asked me, are you overwhelmed by the colors when you listen to any music? No, it's. It, it's not always in your mind, but it's an association always, , that's there. When the Harmon, when the music is harmonically complicated, it is a more kaleidoscopic kind of impression of
Dr. Sinclair: Oh, , that, that, that'd be fun to think about what I, when I conducted. So you're a fine pianist. You actually worked this out by playing it yourself?
Dr. Crozier: I did, yeah. I worked it out on the piano, not that I can play it up to tempo.
, I. Which Adam, Adam has shared some of his working process that I'm amazed at the virtuosity. But, um, I was always working with what lies under the hand, you know?
And I, I hope it's pianistic,[00:18:00]
Dr. Sinclair: well, I must, you know, you're, you're a fine pianist. I'm sure. I'm sure that that it, that's what makes it playable is 'cause you actually played it. , as compared to some composers who were not p really pianists. And I think you can, I think I can always tell sometimes the instrument the composer is when I'm looking at their piece by how certain parts are written.
You know, I can, I can feel that in when I hear Mendelssohn pieces or, or Bach pieces. And so I immediately could tell that, that a pianist had, had worked on this piece. It, it came out really clear. ,
Dr. Crozier: Being a pianist isn't always a, an asset, uh, when you're writing for the orchestra.
, I think some non pianists orchestrate better. , Mahler made the comment, , uh, you must get rid of the pianist in you when you're orchestrating,
you know? And so orchestration isn't my easiest area. I struggle with orchestration
still.
Dr. Sinclair: do you think that, that the, the piano would be a hindrance. Is it because it, they're thinking of it in this, in the tonal [00:19:00] colors that they can get in their hands.
Dr. Crozier: Yeah. So you're thinking always pianistically for the orchestra. What's, I just gravitate toward what fits under my hand. And uh, you don't always wanna do that in the orchestra. You want to have things that are unplayable, but sound well in the
ensemble.
now
Dr. Sinclair: I know you also , in a, in a previous life, , well, it was also, you were also an OBO
Dr. Crozier: Yeah.
OBO is my second instrument.
Dr. Sinclair: Okay. So that helps a little bit. Having that woodwind background.
Dr. Crozier: Right. It really
does help Yeah. I, I regret that I, I. Don't play a string instrument? Well,
Dr. Sinclair: yeah, , I think as a conductor, I wish that I had that, , strong string background too. It would make life easier, so. Do you have a specific audience or type of listener in mind for this concerto?
for example, what kind of audience member is gonna get the most out of
Dr. Crozier: I like to write for every. Every audience member, no matter what their level of, , musical appreciation or [00:20:00] acquaintance, I want there to be something in it for everybody. somebody who knows nothing about music can come in and listen to this and enjoy it, for whatever the aspect may be for the, uh.
Emotional journey or the watching the pianist shine up there. , and I want something there for the sophisticated listener too.
Dr. Sinclair: Yeah,
I I, I think it's gonna, I think it will speak to everyone. It's, there are moments that are just, , beautifully elegant. , but there's some also nice visceral moments in there that are kind of muscular moments. We talked about this, but I love how the piano. Drives the orchestra into those places.
It's, it's almost like you have a tour guide to get to
Dr. Crozier: right? The, uh, pianist is a little bit like the
tour
guide. taking you
Dr. Sinclair: Yeah. So what have I not talked about , in this concerto that you would wanna say about it?
Dr. Crozier: Well, I'm just excited for everyone to go on this journey with us I didn't talk about the feeling one has when a premier's [00:21:00] coming up.
I'd love
that
Dr. Sinclair: I've,
Dr. Crozier: There's, it's. There's huge excitement about it because this is coming to life for the first time. It's kind of like, uh, you're welcoming a child into the world. , in a way there's also fear hoping it works because we don't have that experience yet. , there are a lot of variables. We have a soloist, we have the orchestra, we have to put all that together.
, So there's. there's. a sense of anxiety about it, but it's sort of, it's a positive anxiety because I have a good feeling, , Adam's played some for me and now you've reacted in what you've seen in the orchestral score. , I'm very excited for the opportunity
Dr. Sinclair: Well, I, I'm thrilled. , well, I'm grateful too. , we're, once again, we're the ones that should be very grateful to you and we are, , I don't think you have to worry about it coming off.
I mean, when you have an artist like Adam. , he has a technique to burn.
Yeah.
And so, and this is a technically challenging [00:22:00] piece.
Dr. Crozier: It, it really is, uh, in every, every sense.
, I just hope I've done my best work here, but it, it was a long genesis and I thought about it a lot. You know, the form. Is there too much of this, too little of that, what's just right?
It's like preparing a dish, you know, you're cooking something and you want just the right balance of spices in it.
Dr. Sinclair: Well, I'm, I'm still wrapping my head around that you wrote five minutes of music and took it out. I mean, because that, that in itself speaks so much to where you wanted that structure and form and sound ago. But like I said, I hope I, you use those pieces, uh, another place and, and as you know what I'm going to say here, 'cause I've been saying this to you for years and years, and that is.
, , write me a choral piece. There's
Dr. Crozier: Oh, there's one, there's one on the docket
Dr. Sinclair: here.
Is
there? Yeah. Good. Because, and maybe you can use part of that Allegro section that's out of there for this. 'cause I, I, for the audience, I, I've been, , about every two times a year I, I [00:23:00] run past Dan in the hall and remind him that I'm, that I want a coral piece.
And, uh, so one of these days we'll be here talking to you about a new coral piece. And I'm, I'm gonna be thrilled about that. So this is gonna be, this is something. All of you, you'd wanna be a part of the, you really made the great example of bringing a child in the world. This is a, uh, this is a work of art that is going to be introduced, , high art, introduced to an audience member who gets a chance to experience it for the first time.
And I'm always curious different than going to a work that they know. Like you go hear a Beethoven Symphony, everyone knows how this is gonna turn out. And if you don't know, you should have listened before you came. This, the excitement is, this is a journey. I don't know where we're going yet.
Dr. Crozier: And they're part of it. The audience is part of this, uh,
Dr. Sinclair: Big circle.
Dr. Crozier: Yeah. circle. It's,
Dr. Sinclair: That makes art. Yeah. Well, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with us, and I can't thank you enough for the piece, and I can't wait to work on it. [00:24:00] Dan, it's always a, a joy to get to talk to you, but a, a joy to work with your music too.
. , , so the program we're gonna be, , performing. This is the centerpiece of us, and this is the premier, and it is on April 26th and 27 of, , this year and in Knowles Memorial Chapel. And it is, Paired with kind of another interesting piece. It starts with the Shastakovich Festival Overture, which is a great overture, and then it, , ends with a Puccini me Gloria, which is a little bit of candy compared to this piece, but it, it makes for a nice balance program and then some surprises from the choir at the end. So this is a, a complete musical experience for you. So please go to bach festival florida.org or give the Bach Festival office a call and, , acquire some tickets.
Don't be, don't miss the opportunity to be on this journey and to be the one in the audience. That said, I was at the premier. So Dan, once again, thank you so very much for, [00:25:00] for being with us today and for this fabulous piece, and I hope all of you come and join us. Thanks again, Dan.
Dr. Crozier: Thank you, John. It's a big honor to be here.
Dr. Sinclair: So
good people. Remember, the power of music belongs to all of you, I hope to have you with us the next time we talk. And thank you very much for listening. All my very best.