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Starting: January 2024
This weekly podcast is unique in higher education. All sides of Issues, challenges, and opportunities from across higher education are presented and discussed in an entertaining style and format.
Dr. Gary Stocker, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, and their guests review, discuss, and debate the issues of the day in higher education.
Gary (00:00)
We are set for another weekly episode of College Counterpoints where we have civil discussion and debate as we model and discuss the many, many topics and new stories in higher education. Hello, my name is Gary Stocker.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:14)
And my name is Joseph Pellerito Jr. And Gary, before we get started today, I wanted to ask to be the one who keeps the good points score.
Gary (00:25)
Well, all right, Joseph, you have been gracious enough to let me do it most of the time. All I ask is that you be somewhat close to reasonable in making the determination on who wins and loses today. Because as I sit here, I've got some good content. I think I'm gonna win, but let's get started. You know, topic one today is the college decision kitchen table discussion. And even with all the FAFSA delays, and we'll talk about that later, Joseph.
This is the time of year when families start to sit around that kitchen table or dining room table, whatever, and make decisions about college. Is that something you've done in the past? What kind of guidance would you even give families as they sit around and make that college decision this time of year?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (01:07)
Absolutely, Gary. Well, first of all, you know, I like to tell my students, my own students, that start from the end. And what I mean by that is, imagine yourself, wherever you end up, achieving a career and not a job. You know, there's nothing wrong with working at Starbucks, but the kind of investment that families make should not lead to a job at Starbucks. It should be a career.
So first things first, you gotta look at the viability of the schools that you're considering, right? And to do that, you need data. You need data, both qualitative and quantitative data. And you know, the College Viability app is one place that I start, literally. It's a great tool, it's something that helps me understand the financial health and wellbeing of any institution that I'm looking at.
But there's lots of other variables as well, Gary, but I'll start with that.
Gary (02:07)
You know, in addition to doing the podcasts that I do with you and the ones I do on my own, I'm regularly interviewed for other people's podcasts. And one of the things I talk about with this kitchen table college decision discussion is, as I sit here, and of course my children are well past that age, but I know for a fact that which of the colleges are at high risk of closing. And I worry, Joseph, that there are families having that discussion now or in the next coming weeks that will choose a college.
private that may close or public that may close majors, that I can sit here and tell them if they asked, be careful about choosing this college or these colleges on your list. They may or may not close, but Joseph, they may not have the financial resources to give your student, your child, your beloved child, the best college experience possible. Is that a reasonable thought process?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:02)
No, I think that's absolutely reasonable, Gary. That's more of a macro view, right? We start with the viability, financial health and well -being of a college, but there are other factors too that I think are really important. One of them is what are the safety considerations of any given campus? And those are published, data is available. I'll make sure we put that on our website for folks that want to do, want to circle back. But I want to know about the safety of
every campus that you know the federal law requires campuses to publish their crime stats and that's that's huge. Another factor I think that's really important is will that particular school you're considering accept your son or daughter's AP classes. You know the ideal Gary is that high school seniors going into college and I understand not everyone's a high school senior but that's
who we're kind of talking about right now, I think. Well, at least I am because my daughter's a high school senior and so putting it into context for me. But I wanna also know, are they gonna accept that? Because I think one of the goals should be, and we don't talk about this, Gary, is students, freshmen should try and complete their undergrad degrees in three years if they can, using AP classes, scholarships.
And also looking at things like viability, safety, campus life, et cetera. You know, you could knock off 25 % of the cost right there if you planned right. So I think that's another thing that we don't really talk much about, but we really need to be.
Gary (04:42)
And John, I want to give yourself one good point for bringing up the safety topic, but I'm going to elaborate on that a little bit. And I've got a specific story. You can give me five or 10 points, good point points, if you'd like to. But there was a story, and I'm not going to share the name of the college, it was down south, that had a series of carbon monoxide alarms go off in the dorms. And the folks responsible for that, I know if it was maintenance or whatever, decided to turn off the carbon monoxide alarms because they were annoying everybody.
And it turned out that indeed there were issues with a boiler or something like that. And there was a student, sir, sadly, that lost their life as a result of that. Now, that's that singular. It's an anecdotal observation. It's a terrible story for the fact for the family impacted and for the college. But the concern I have on that safety issue is how many more are out there? You know, the boat that went into the bridge this week, nobody expected that.
And yet these things happen. It may be irrational, but before we move on, am I thinking correctly or am I expanding on that too much?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (05:50)
No, I think you're pointing out something that's really important, Gary, and it's human error. Often these things that happen on campuses that are really unfortunate generally are related to a human being's action or inaction. And so I think it's very logical what you're saying, and I think it's important to consider. You know, one of the things I think families need to really think about.
and this is, I think, a good segue is, you know, there are too many college leaders that face challenges today. They've had to handle, you know, declining enrollment, graduation rates, and more. You know, persistence is a major issue among college presidents and deans and other decision makers. They have no idea what their competition's numbers are. But the 2024...
Private and public college viability app for executive analysis provides college leaders with more than 30 iPads comparison reports from 2015 to 2022 for almost 3 ,000 private colleges in the US. I've looked at the app myself. I use it on a weekly basis and I can tell you it's remarkable how much information is packed into this app.
This year's version has added a series of financial and enrollment ratios to better inform college leaders about their performance and that of their competitors. Only a few days are left in the 2024 release promotion. College leaders can get both the private and public college versions, and I've looked at both, of the 2024 college viability app for only $1 That's pretty remarkable. If you do the math,
That's only pennies, Gary, per college report.
Gary (07:51)
Thanks Joseph. And topic two for today is we've always heard and somewhat laughingly about lawyers, attorneys who are ambulance chasers. And one of things I've noticed in the last couple of years is that when a college announces its closure, and again it's almost always private colleges, most but not all have teach -out agreements either in place or in place shortly after the closure. But I've noticed increasingly that some colleges...
are kind of engaged in what I would characterize as becoming higher education ambulance chasers trying to track down students from a closed college for their own. Am I being too harsh?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:33)
Well, you know, Gary, I was waiting for that patented Gary cynicism to rear its head. And it's so good to see, you know, just like not all lawyers are bad lawyers, just like any sort of topic that we're talking about or profession, you know, I don't view it that way. I think that perhaps it is opportunistic in some cases, but I think for the most part, when schools go after
students that are suddenly finding themselves without a home, if you will, it's an opportunity for them, no doubt. But I think there is also at times concern for those students and care. And so colleges and universities that are usually nearby geographically, which is interesting, usually step up and say, hey, we're going to create a special pathway for you.
and we're gonna accept your credits and we're gonna make it easier for you to transition over to us. I'm not cynical about that. I actually appreciate it, Gary, and I know a lot of college administrators that work really hard to make that pathway viable.
Gary (09:46)
And Joseph, I know we release this as audio only, but for those listening, we have video of each other as we do this. And when Joseph said I was cynical, I reached for the Kleenex to wipe the tears from my eyes because I, you know, and of course we model this, we tease each other, even when we agree and disagree, we do it in the proper spirit that we think. But there's a data piece to this and get out that scorecard. I'm not going to let that go, Joseph.
Notre Dame College closed a battle month ago. It's in Ohio. And they released a list of teach -out colleges. And I did a post on this one. And five of the seven colleges on that list, Joseph, in my mind, in my estimation, you know, I look at a lot of data, those five of those seven themselves were in financial stress. They aren't all going to close, but what about the ones that do? And there's just, last week, I guess it was here in St. Louis, Fontbonne University, nine colleges on their closeout list.
I had at least six of them in financial distress. Now here's, you know, that's just me being the data nerd. One of the colleges was two hours away. I'm not gonna list names. One of them was three hours away from St. Louis and the other was in Michigan. And you're in Michigan, I'm in Missouri. We don't live as close neighbors, do we?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:07)
No, we don't. And I have to give you a point for this, Gary, because I'm just going to surrender right off the bat and say that while I do believe that schools are doing the right thing to create wide pathways for students, because it's really about the students that we care about, right, and we're most concerned for, I think it is true that families and students still need to be wise and prudent and make...
the right assessment and the right informed choice, and maybe even more so in their situations because emotions are high. Many students didn't know that Notre Dame was closing, Notre Dame College, and so mistakes can be made. And we don't want to compound the problem by now suddenly landing in a place that is financially in trouble. So I agree with you. I think it again points out,
that we need to be not only good consumers, informed consumers, but I think we also need to be transparent. And I know you, I read LinkedIn and your blog and other things. You're always calling for decision makers, college presidents, board members, et cetera, to be transparent. You often say, please be transparent. And I think that's really what it comes down to.
Gary (12:34)
You know, I'm going to wrap up this discussion on this before we start looking at our news stories. And there are not very many cases, but I read reports, Joseph, from sources that aren't mine, that there are some number of students who left from a closed college, chose another one, and that one closed also. I just, again, I'm shaking my head as we look at each other on the video portion of this.
That's almost beyond tragic in terms of the personal lives of those folks. And that's why I, you know, colleges that close, I know they're wrapping things up. They have no incentive to make sure the teach out colleges are financially strong. I would offer that one of the things I like to do is say, hey, I'll point it out. I'll point it out. You know, be careful. And the video I did on FontBond, my message was mostly to FontBond students. How many of them will listen to it? I don't know. Saying, please be careful. Look at the finances.
especially after you've been burned once. Our first news story today is from EEY Parthenon. And they have a measurement called Institutional Viability Metric, and this is for college. They even have an acronym, IVM, for Institutional Viability Metric. And I'm just going to summarize some of the data points, and then you and I will talk about this. In 2019, 19 % in the year 2019, 19 % of private colleges were at risk.
according to EY Parthenon's institutional viability metric. In 2022, that number had gone up five points to 24%. Now they made a couple of good generalizations and that bigger colleges were better off than smaller ones. Nobody's going to fall out of the chair on that one. That one's obvious. And they said that selective colleges were much better off than non -selective. Duh. All right. That data has proved it. They did good work on that part. Not a big deal. But Joseph, this is work on the macro side.
And it's not particularly profound, nor the numbers change for the private colleges at risk. That was news in my mind. But here's data that they used, right? There are 1 ,597 colleges. And if 24 % of those are at risk, Joseph, that's 383 private colleges at risk of closing according to EY Parthenon. There were 27 % more, or 431, that EY Parthenon wanted to monitor.
And about half, 49 % of those 1500 plus colleges, U .I. Parthenon said were stable. Well, again, in what I've done previously on this, congrats to the folks who put this together. Good number, good research, good data. But Joseph, that doesn't help the moms and dads and students who are looking at some of these 1597 colleges to decide, well, is the college I'm looking at at risk or not?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:24)
Agreed. This could be a first, Gary. We agree again in one segment now on two major points. I went through the data as well, and while I think it's really helpful what they've done, and I commend them as well, it's really hard to make heads or tails out of, I think, among sort of an average family. You know, as I'm parsing this information and trying to understand it,
you and I do this for a living. And while I can see there's some benefits to it for folks like us, I think that again, and I maybe sound, I'm repeating myself, but I think again, there's such a need for outlets and information for families to make informed decisions. It again, accentuates why the College Viability app is so important in terms of that data.
that is pretty easy to digest. You know, the app is straightforward and the numbers are pretty clear. They tell a story and that story is easily understood. I don't want to sort of imply though that families aren't highly intelligent and can't, matter of fact, they're much smarter than I am, most of the folks I'm sure, but the bottom line is this. I think we need more outlets for
translation of data and that messaging needs to be delivered not only to the decision makers at the university levels so that they can make hopefully better decisions in terms of transparency and reporting and the rest of it, but especially for families trying to navigate this quagmire, Gary.
Gary (17:10)
And before I make my second point, I'm going to call time out and offer a moment of appreciation. And you regularly reference the College of Viability app. Joseph, I'm grateful. I spend a lot of time working on this. And to hear someone with your pedigree, with your experience, with your insight, reaffirm what I think the app does. I want you to know I'm grateful for that. Continue the good work. You can even take away a point from me. But I'm grateful for you talking about that.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:32)
No, I appreciate it, Gary. And you know, I'm going to mention and I've never, I don't think I've ever mentioned this. I think this is our eighth or ninth episode that we've done together. I reached out to you originally, if you recall, to work together. And this idea for this podcast came out of our early discussions. But the reason I reached out is because I...
wasn't aware and I'm still not aware of anything quite like the college viability app and the work that you're doing. So I'm thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to be able to promote it. I wouldn't promote it if I didn't believe that it's efficacious for families like yours and mine and the rest of the millions of Americans that are trying to navigate this quagmire. And we know it's only going to get more complicated, right? Over the next
Couple years, it's only going to get more complicated.
Gary (18:28)
You were talking about EY Parthenon and their institutional viability metric. Let me just wrap up the discussion on this topic with one observation. And my point that I made to you, and you had a nice rebuttal on that, was this is the macro view. And the good folks at EY Parthenon put some good numbers together. But I remember it was about five years ago that an organization called EdMIT .me and Inside Higher Education prepared an algorithmic projection of which colleges will close and in what time period.
and Inside Higher Education sent queries to the colleges referenced in this EdMIT project that were projected to close sooner rather than later. And the colleges involved, and I don't know the colleges names because they didn't release them, but the colleges involved threw a fit and threatened substantial litigation and both EdMIT and IHE backed off. So I understand not wanting to say, you know, Joseph Pellerino University is going to close.
And one of the reasons I was actually in that same time frame looking at doing something similar to what Edmet did. And when I saw that stuff come out, I said no more. So the college viability app is a comparison. I'll give you the data. I'll give you the comparisons. I'll make it look nice. I'll make it easy to use. You decide if Gary Stalker College or Joseph Pellarider University is the one for you and your family. I'll just give you the data through the college viability app. One of our sponsors is Harmony Q.
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I want to go north. There's probably still snow on the ground up in Wisconsin and Michigan. And there was a story out of The Chronicle a couple of weeks ago. And the headline Joseph read, for this small college, a merger was a lifeline. Now it's a focus of suspicion. And I'm not going to go into details. I covered it in more depth on my This Week in College Viability podcast. But the essence of it was that Concordia, Wisconsin, in comparably better financial shape than Concordia Ann Arbor,
had put forth something like $90 million to cover the expenses at Ann Arbor. And now all of a sudden the faculty and staff at Ann Arbor are saying, well, we can't make ends meet. My word's not theirs. And so why are you guys maybe taking a look at our selling our property here at Concordia Ann Arbor so that you can cover the investments you put in us? Now it's a crude way to talk about the story. But Joseph, I...
We need some business common sense. Congrats to the folks at Concordia, Wisconsin. They made the investment. They made a business decision. It's probably not going to work out, but we've all been through that before.
Why do you think it is, Joseph, that college faculty and even the community members in some cases have such a hard time considering their institution's financial health and ultimate viability in these kinds of stories?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (22:41)
You know, Gary, I'm going to have to take away a point for your comment and what's implied in your question because, you know, first of all, to generalize that all faculty are unaware of the financial viability of the institutions where they're privileged to serve is simply unfair. I think it's true that many faculty...
It's not top of mind in terms of wondering, okay, how are we keeping the lights on, right? This is a business, perhaps first and an educational endeavor second. But you know, I know many faculty and especially for example, there are great business schools in many universities and colleges all over the country. They are some of the most astute analysts of...
the financial viability of the institutions where they're serving. I love talking with business faculty because they know more than I do. Many of them have their MBAs and other kinds of training and more importantly, experience. Many of them have done research and great scholarship on topics related to business. And so I think to make a statement and to generalize in that way isn't really fair.
Gary (24:02)
And you know what, me a culpo, me a culpo, me a culpo, you're right. You know, I engage in a gross generalization. The point is still valid, but yeah, it's not everybody by any stretch. And you made a good point on that. My concern is that the culture in these colleges, even though there will be some astute folks looking at the business piece, the culture is such that, again, this is a Gary Stoker opinion, agree, disagree, throw something at me, whatever you want, that too many faculty are anchored in a historical view of colleges that...
puts their organizations at some substantial risk, Joseph.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:34)
Yeah, you know, I think it is fair though, all joking aside. And I think you're making a good point. But I think one of the reasons why many faculty don't focus on financial viability is because we've had a culture in the US in particular where faculty have been focused on the other three pillars of academia, which is teaching, research, and service.
That's their focus. They're focused on the curriculum, imparting that curriculum, teaching, but also the other side of the coin, Gary, which is mentoring students in terms of professional acculturation. So in some ways, faculty have had the luxury not to worry about financial viability, right? But I would argue, and as I've said in the past, it's time now for shared governance.
And maybe it's the wrong term. Maybe it's not governance, but at least I would implore university presidents, deans and others to consider your faculty as a potential resource to tap when making critical decisions about navigating, you know, the challenges that they're facing financially.
Gary (25:50)
You know, that's a topic that we're never going to agree on, shared governance. You know, maybe it's somewhat similar to what the Senate does for nominees. They provide advice and consent. And I understand there's some similarities there. We've had this discussion before, Joseph will have it again. The shared governance model, I think, is a drawback. Parts of it may have viability and parts of it don't. But, you know, while you tally our score for this week, I'm going to wrap things up. And the wrap up before we get to the score is this FAFSA delays.
And I think you and I have talked about this both during the podcast and offline before. We had delays again last week. I really, really worry, Dr. Pellarino, that these delays are going to cause more of these smaller private colleges that are already on the ropes to close just because of the FAFSA delays. Your response and then give us a score.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (26:45)
Well, I got to tell you, the FASFA delays are, you know, without pardon. They're borderline ridiculous and there's no reason why there should be a delay right now. Unfortunately, it's another example of big government, frankly, not getting it done. You know, it kind of reminds me, Gary, of the fact that we're more than $30 trillion in debt. Now, how can I make that connection? Well, it's an example.
It's an example of big government not getting it done, not managing the day to day. And here we are. So yeah, who suffers? Families, students and others. I'm not going to say in closing that it's catastrophic as you are, or it could be catastrophic, but I know that it's causing a lot of consternation for the average, you know, students and families across the country.
So Gary, I gotta tell ya, I've got the point total and I'm gonna, yes, I'm going to say that we are at a tie. Five points I'm giving you and five points for me. And this was good, this was fun today. So we've gotta draw.
Gary (28:03)
Well, you know, we may have to create a rule that whoever's keeping score that if we have draws, it can't happen very often because because the purpose of this is for me to say I'm better than you. And then some weeks for you to say, Gary, I'm better than you. So, you know, we're to have have a rule on this.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (28:17)
Well, does it matter? Maybe it would help then if I just come clean and say that even though it's a draw, I still think I won.
Gary (28:26)
Fair enough. Hey, for Joseph Pellerino Jr., I'm Gary Stocker with another episode of College Counterpoints. Joseph, let's do this again next week.