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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
She's a filmmaker from the South Side of Chicago whose work has screened at major film festivals and televised nationally. Her work centers on the African-American experience around community, family, and resilience that highlights love within hardship, using storytelling as a vehicle for healing and progress. Most recently, she directed the short films, The Bet and Take 290. She also made her comedy special directorial debut alongside Lillard Rell Howrie on his stand-up special, Rell Talk.
which can be seen exclusively on Tubi. And in this episode, we talk about ideas that won't leave you alone and the price it takes to bring them to life as well as how she's learned to live with the stress that comes with making work that matters to her and also what keeps her going while dealing with exhaustion and clarity of doing the work. So if that's something you're into, please keep listening. You can follow Sanichole on Instagram at Sanichole and I'll have more info in the show notes.
But without further ado, an absolutely lovely conversation with Sanicole Young.
Sanicole Young (01:56.206)
I've been feeling like I need to do more, which is daunting because the work that we do is not easy. It's hard work. But I also feel like I should be doing more and not just saying more just to just be busy, but just more creative expression and things that are mine, you know, wanting to express myself as an artist. So.
Even though you're releasing things, I'm the type of person that will release things and I have like four more ideas in my head. So it's just like, how do I get all those ideas done too? know?
So I mean, it's kind of like a, almost like a blessing and a curse to have so many ideas. So how do you, how are you dealing with that in terms of like, might release something and then you have, you five, 10 ideas. How do you go about like prioritizing it?
think there's ideas and then there's the one that never leaves. there's, can just be going along my day and see things that I feel like should be addressed or I'm inspired by or things that I've just gone through personally. But I think the idea just that won't leave is the one that is begging for your attention. It's calling you because I've had ideas that I've ignored. I will just ignore it and ignore it and it would just wake me up in the morning and be like, Hey,
You thought I was gone and here I am. And that is the curse of being a filmmaker. I think it does not leave you. It stays with you until you address it. And the call to being a filmmaker is to answer and go through the pain. Go through the pain and just do it. And then when you do it, it stops.
Mishu Hilmy (03:30.668)
Right,
Sanicole Young (03:37.43)
But then another small idea just sprouts in his place. So it's never ending. It's constantly changing. But I think that nagging feeling to create, it just does not leave.
It's inspiring and sometimes I don't want to say exhausting, but challenging because it's like, it's a hard medium, right? We're not, we're not paint, not that painting isn't hard and you know, novel writing isn't hard. It's just that it's so collaborative. So it's like, you have this dream, you have this vision that's been whispering to you for months and years. It's like, but shit, I need money. I need people. I need location.
And that is the part where you just like, do I really have to? And then it starts getting fun in your head and it's like, I gotta do it. So yeah, it's a lot of motivating factors to want you to suffer. Cause that's what, that's what you're doing.
What makes it sort of suffering for you? Is it sort of the impatience of it all? The challenge of it all?
I just think that there's a thriving discomfort when there are several different factors to either you just want the factors that you're working on on any project to work for you. And in most times they're just not working for you and you're in a constant place of either making it work or pivoting from your original plan, right? So that is the frustrating part.
Sanicole Young (04:56.706)
But then if we were being honest with ourselves, if it was so easy, everyone would do it. So we're these curated people that have a tolerance for stress because we all have somewhat of a tolerance for stress. I know in television I had to have a tolerance for stress because I knew even at 9 a.m. I was going to meet someone unsavory and I still had to do my job.
So I think it's just the constant ebbs and flows of navigating every single part of putting the production together. And I often try to tell people that are in filmmaking but are not filmmakers not to pin my plight against yours, but as a filmmaker, I am doing a lot to get my craft off where you can just show up on set or you could just walk to a mic. That's not what I'm doing.
I'm calling people, I'm calling agents, I'm making sure actors show up on time. I'm checking to see if my crew has everything that they need. I'm checking my budget. I'm low on budget. I gotta beg for some more money. Like all of those things are happening to me. And I haven't died. And I haven't died.
Yeah, yeah. It's like you don't want to necessarily compare, but it's like a different tempo and different challenges. Cause I think for me, the similar thing of like moving from standup comedy and stage performance where I can have an idea and that same night I can see if that idea works and fail or succeed. like with filmmaking, it's like,
You could do it too, technically, but it's what the scope or the scale of your vision, right? Cause I think for you, doesn't seem like you're at a place anymore in your career where you're like, I'm just going grab my buds. We're gonna grab a camera and like shoot something on our front porch or on the sidewalk or in an alley, which is totally valid. But I think as you grow, you want to challenge yourself to climb higher mountains. And part of that is it just becomes harder and harder and then there's more elements you want to attach.
Sanicole Young (06:48.672)
Yes, and more to learn and more difficult people and just bigger challenges and you know, so, and I don't want to say difficult people as in everybody in the film industry is an ogre, but what we do causes so much stress. And sometimes it can have so much pressure that you can appear to be unsavory when that is totally not who you are. But then some people are unsavory.
I do think because it is a fee based industry, there are certain players who are there to just like kind of collect their fee and whether it's mercenary or just the nature of it. think, you know, hired guns are there to like do their job as experts. So you don't have to worry all the hats, but because of that, you deal with a lot more personalities who are like, well, I did my thing and I'm just trying to get mine. Yep. And like for you, you know, when it comes to those ideas that just won't go away, like how do you cultivate
the growth or the development of them, given that there's so many like outside factors that might slow you down or stop you. how, I imagine every product is a little different, but like, do you, you know, nourish or water it, you know, those kinds of plants of ideas, like every week, every month, every year, like what's, what have you found that's been successful versus not successful, et cetera.
Well, think something inside waters the idea and then you see things that align with the idea. think something that you're meant to do is constantly going to be repetitious, whether it be you or whether it be the things around you. And it's going to constantly remind you to grow that thing. Now you could ignore it. Then like for me,
I would have an idea and then something would happen to me during my day. And then I have to make the decision, do I want to collect this idea? Because if I collect the idea, then I'm watering the bigger picture. Or do I say, that would be nice, but I ain't really trying to do that. And I walk away.
Sanicole Young (08:53.154)
But if I'm a true artist, I am watering that idea and I'm jotting that down. And then that's becoming a collection of things. And now I'm looking at all of the ideas that I've collected under this one umbrella. And I'm like, hey, I think I'm ready to start now because I've collected so many different pieces that I feel like encompasses this thing that I'm trying to figure out. And my ideas never come to me fully. They always come in pieces. And then I'm trying to...
put all of the pieces out so I can figure out what it is. But I think that's what it is. I just think because we're creators and the way we intake the world and see the world, there's so much inspiration around us just by living life. I mean, you're watering yourself every day when you get up and you take a shower, make sure you have interactions with meaningful people. So that same intention would have to go into your craft and that idea.
So like once you decided, okay, I'm going to tackle this. I'm going to take this on. Now it's like, let me collect or be inspired by or intentionally watch something that's in the wheelhouse of my idea. Let me read something that I know, you know, will be thought for.
Provoking or tentilating for an audience if I'm creating something that they can learn something from or take something from them So I just think living life, know There's always going to be something that happens to you or something that happens to people that needs to be Like it could be explored further than the event itself. And I think the country is seeing that right now where
they're talking beyond something that's happened. You know what I mean? Or they're analyzing it down to a T and all of these factors that contribute to this thing. You know what I mean? And that's the same thing with an idea.
Mishu Hilmy (10:43.246)
as it takes a lot of, it can take a lot of time. You can find those ideas and it's maybe additive and you can explore it with a little bit more depth, which seems to be like the type of work you're enjoying doing. like the more you spend the, especially with collaborators, whether it's production designers who can add more layers to these ideas, but it also seems like there's a lot of momentum involved maybe through action. like for you, what have been usually the thresholds where it moves from say collecting all these ideas and nourishing it to
crossing a threshold until like, shoot, we're in pre-production. we're developing it and we're, you know, we're getting people like, are there routine things that are signs for you to cross over the threshold and start sending those emails, getting those department heads.
Honestly, I can just speak to right now. directed a film called Take 290. It's a film about a woman from the West Side that is on the journey to define herself as an artist. And she meets a guy from the South Side of Chicago and they have a banter about the differences of the sides, just artwork in general, and then they get to know each other. When I directed that short, I immediately knew
that it was special. I immediately knew that, but it wasn't mine. It wasn't my idea. So I was like, man, this idea is so great. I don't want, I don't want to be the one collecting the nuggets for it, but I'm so excited about it. That I want to contribute and I want to help and I want to do whatever I can to make this a bigger vision. And I think it's when things fall in your lap. That's when.
I think you know you got something. Because as a filmmaker, things do not fall in your lap. Things do not just work out. Things do not just come together. Like, I mean, you can be lucky and things come together, but typically, you know, you are fighting to get things to just work. And then with Take 290, when we talked about developing it and just collecting ideas to make it a bigger project.
Sanicole Young (12:51.33)
things were falling. Like it was, it was people that I was running into that I hadn't seen in years that like knew the history of Chicago art. And I was like, what?
I hope this runs into you at Starbucks. literally ran into a Chicago influencer at Starbucks the other day and I never run into this guy. And then I was like, it was something to water the idea. And I was like, this came my way without me looking for it, without me scrambling for it. And I was like, this is it. This is the one because it's too easy. It's just presented itself to be too easy. That's why I know it's meant to be made.
It's like when you're ready and receptive, I think there's something to be said about paying attention. And when you have an idea that like opens up your receptors and you can really pay attention, you start to like notice the thing. is sort of the serendipity, the synchronicity of like all the connections you've made over the years and contributing to that. think that's like a really strong indicator of like, there's something behind this. Maybe I should just trust it and like commit to it.
Baby, yes, yes. And it will convince you. I'm telling you, it will convince you different people you meet or different people that are connected to maybe an element that's in your film that is important that they know about, that they can speak to. So that has been happening with Take 290. It's really been blowing my mind. And that's why, you know, I want to be in a place where I am listening.
and I am following and when I am giving little seeds from the most high, I am not ignoring them. I am being proactive because ultimately, and I know every filmmaker feels this way, I feel this way. We're called to do this work. We're called to do this work and it's our job until the job is done. But you're called to do the work and you wouldn't do it if you wouldn't call to it. I promise you, you wouldn't. You would not go through all of this if you wasn't called to it.
Sanicole Young (14:50.818)
Yeah. I would give this up quick. would be into, I would be somewhere with a pina colada in my hand and with my toes in the sand.
Totally. Yeah. I mean, I joke with my partner. like, I'm done with show business. you know, every way I'm I'm done. I'm I'm out. And then I'll convince myself otherwise. do you find that like you're predominantly, you prefer like writing directing with this project just sort of hit you where it's like, oh, I'm okay just directing it.
Yes, honestly, don't think like sometimes, you know, I'm writing directing, usually when I'm writing directing, it's something that has specifically happened to me that I understand to a T and I can direct it to a T, I could talk about it to a T, because I felt like it was something that was mine. It was my experience, right? But with Take 290, it's a collective experience. It's about African-American people in Chicago.
on the particular sides of the West side and the South side, how the West side and the South side have or lack resources, how black people view each other from those sides that has not been discussed on a large scale in media. Even with some of the TV shows that have Chicago backdrops, they're still not discussing that. And there's an authenticity that we have to get to outside of Chicago hot dogs and you know.
Like, okay, that's cool, but there's some other things going on here. And, know, the media hasn't been our friend in the last 10 years with just painting us as a war zone, painting us like they're not growing families here. Like there's you know, artists or working class people or great citizens here in Chicago. So with Take290 being collective, I don't mind sharing.
Sanicole Young (16:34.958)
in a creative experience because we all have experiences being on the South side of Chicago. Or there's a handful of black people that have different experiences, different from the South side, on the West side of Chicago, where they would be educating me. You know what I mean? Cause I'm a South sider. I'm not a West sider. I'm not taking 290 nowhere. I'm on 94. I'm going back South. I mean, even when I met Alexi, shout out to Alexi, who is the storyteller of Take 290.
One day we were just, when I was getting to know her, we were just talking and she was just randomly was like, do you notice how, you know, black people from the South side don't come out West? And I was like, I mean, literally just that conversation, we sparked this really authentic conversation about like, well, why is that? Well, why does that happen? And to get more deeply into it. So yeah, I mean, you do have your films where you are writing and directing and you feel close enough to be able to handle that.
But I think a project like Take 290 is so collective. mean, we all love Chicago, so I wouldn't dare try to tell that story alone.
I mean, it's impressive to sort of open up those conversations and it has me thinking around sort of what's traditionally sort of centered, auteur theory, collaboration or filmmaking versus something more decentered or it's not so much fully auteur or centered on your perspective. like, how have you been approaching something that's maybe more decentered, more collaborative when it comes to, you know, your directing or, you know, prepping to be on set? Like, what have you noticed that's already been different when it comes to decentering the work from say yourself to?
a collective vision or a group vision.
Sanicole Young (18:14.636)
just recently had a DCFS commercial that I directed that I kind of loosely had a hand in the creativity, but it was just not my brain child. Okay. and, it taught me a lot about myself because all of the people around me had really awesome ideas, like really great ideas. And we can get into a, you know, narcissistic bubble.
where we feel like, you know, I don't know if we're thinking on the same level or my frame of thinking may be more refined than your frame of thinking. And that's just completely untrue. I feel like experiences make your thinking dynamic. think anybody can experience something that makes their particular walk or the way they live their life authentic because of that.
experience and it has nothing to do with how they were raised. It has nothing to do with anything. You know what I mean? They could just have that on them. But when you're immersed around different people that have different experiences other than you, further than you, it demands a respect. It demands a respect to where you show up and you hear them.
You hear their ideas and you want to be collaborative with people when you hear them speak, especially if they speak dynamically. Some people's intellect is very loud. And if you ignore it, you're just choosing to, okay? And then you gotta get out of the place of having your ego wanting to be number one in the room. Like filmmaking has never been about one person. It has always been about an army of people.
a collective of people that are collaborating, that are talking, that are working together. Hell, even on my films, I didn't make every decision. had strong people like Natasha Parker by my side to say, Sand, think about this before you make this decision. You know I mean? So it's never you. It's never you. can think that it's them.
Sanicole Young (20:20.782)
That is never fully you. So when you go into projects where it's not your brainchild, it's not your script, you're just directing or you're assisting or you're helping or whatever, know that great people are around you. And you can tell the ones that aren't great, like they'll stick out immediately and you'll know to avoid those people because energy speaks. Energy speaks.
You know who your people are or you know what feels good when you're around a certain person. So I felt like on that project, I was around people that were just as sharp or sharper than me. But I can't come there, I'm the head, I'm the head. Even though I was the director, I'm like, no, like man, Jodi's work for Spike Lee.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's fascinating. It's for that ego check. And, know, I just, you just got me thinking of like the sort of a tour theory. It's like, almost like people who believe billionaires just pulled up their bootstraps and made it all by themselves. It's like, I think that's the similar kind of.
toxic capitalistic belief of like, oh yeah, one person. think directors can provide discernment and advocate and, you know, be an ambassador for the audience, but to be like, no, it's totally their vision. think it's very dismissive of the kind of collective nature of like telling the story and being, bringing groups, groups together. So it's interesting that you're like, you sort of clocked that energy and like, no, I'll defer when needed and take all the perspectives and expertise and experience.
We were just at Excel Film Festival with me and they were asking us questions and I gave the mic to Alexi because I felt like There's nothing for me to be the star I don't want to be the bill of the ball every single time like that is not what I'm a filmmaker I remember a time where filmmakers didn't do this chatty thing
Sanicole Young (22:12.152)
Filmmakers made a film, they came to talk about their film, and that was it. That was, it was nothing else. Now we're in crazy land.
Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you for joining the crazy land of a podcast version. It is like, don't know. I imagine you also think about it because I think about it too of like, have these platforms that are essentially, you know, benefiting and profiting, you know, large corporations like Google through YouTube or, you know, Meta through Instagram and TikTok through real. So it's like, we have all these platforms that could theoretically grow our audience or develop attention toward the work we're doing. But if you think about what it was like 30, 50 years ago,
where you just did your thing. Maybe you did some press panels and press junkets when you were releasing, but there wasn't the expectation of shoot, I should post some reels. should make some IG content. Like how are you navigating this, the, the landscape of where there is that, I don't want to say expectation, but that pressure of I have all these tools available that I could use to grow eyes on what I'm making and like, how much energy do I use to sort of choose to.
involved myself with these platforms that extract my labor for free to potentially pull the slot machine of me getting, you viewers.
Let me just say I am not navigating it well. I am not navigating it well because I don't think it's needed to be a great filmmaker. It's just, you know, it's just to me, it's just become a successful tool for a handful of people to get eyes on them. So everybody has adapted this, and now it's become a culture. Now it's become a very unnecessary culture by the way. But it's become a culture where it's like,
Sanicole Young (23:55.97)
Well, you know, you're not going to be able to get eyes on your film unless you do this. And it's like, well, no, because I remember, you know, coming up where I would see a trailer and be like, man, I want to go see that film. I wasn't running to a social media page to check out who was married or whether they were gay or whether they either was like, what? What is going on? What's he doing? Like, just respect that guy for making something really great and making you think.
You don't have to know if he was married, did he grow up in Kansas? Did he fly in space? Like what is that contributing to the artistic nature of their suit? And I think that is my problem with it. But I don't mind connecting with people that have connected with my work. I just don't think I should be putting any more attention on me as a person more so than what I'm creating. Because when I'm gone, that is all that is left.
You won't have me to ask a question. You won't have me to do anything. So I think people are just unnecessarily pushing like a social media model on filmmakers because I mean, I just listed all of the things that it takes to be a filmmaker now at social media presence on top of it. So like, y'all trying to kill us? Because if that is the case, then, you know, let me just take myself out making my film and then I can worry about social media later.
Because that's the most important thing. And if I don't have a product, it doesn't matter if I'm saying good morning to you. Like if I don't have a story, it doesn't matter if I'm trying to engage you. You know what mean? Who are you to engage if you're not my audience?
Right. Right.
Mishu Hilmy (25:35.202)
Yeah, it creates sort of a compulsive behavior of like, my like thing, like for this podcast, like I noticed for a few months, but I'm not writing as much because I'm like emailing guests to chat with and editing this and like, I don't exist to like have a podcast. you know, so it's like the distraction, the compulsive distraction of like, am I using these tools for a sort of a circuitous reason versus like, if you want to make stories and films and then make them.
Yeah. Rather than like, well, no, I'm going to make a movie, but first I need to get a million followers. And that's how I'm to do like, get ready with me as I write a script.
I refuse, like, I refuse to, I even, like, I don't even want to put, that's my, you know, cause Instagram was fun at one point where you go out, you take your photos, like, now it's like, I don't want to be known for nothing else but filmmaking. So you're never going to see breasts. You're never going to see me, like, you're never going to see that because when you come to my IG page, you're going to know instinctively, like, she's on her thing and it's not funny games here.
You know what mean? So I'm really intentional about that, but do I like navigating the social media space? No. I don't like it. I don't like that it's heavily regarded as something that must be done, but I do engage in it from time to time.
Totally. Yeah, it's a tool, but I think it's like where your path as an artist, where you want to take it. And it depends on what you want to prioritize. Like I think for folks who might be ambitious or impatient, it can be a bit of a seduction or a siren song to say, look, if you focus 70 % of your energy creating your brand as an artist or a storyteller, you might be able to get more attention. And I think the attention, all it means is like when you knock on a door, that knock might be a little bit louder.
Mishu Hilmy (27:27.502)
It might not necessarily mean you get, you know, you get the door open or you get invited in. Another easier way is to just like keep making work and maybe you get invited in, maybe you got to sneak in through the back window or maybe you're just wandering around the woods by yourself, but that's also a journey.
Yeah, and then also like when you really think about it, the time that you're taking to create your personality on social media is taken away from the time for you to perfect a story. And then there are a handful of creators that had a very large or have a very large audience platform, but they're not working on the craft. Right. And sometimes that shows. So now you got 75,000 people watching some crap because you were so busy.
trying to, you know, create this, this audience instead of sharpening your tools. Now you got this audience watching and your tools ain't sharp. So yeah, I mean, I would rather spend as much time on the craft, but there's some people that may not think so. And it's within a digital age. mean, social media is culture.
Yeah, yeah, think it's interesting. Yeah, I do think the internet has dictated culture just to me. It's just a shift in what the culture is. And I think the internet has had a huge impact. Social media has had a huge impact where it used to feel like the internet was a part of culture. Now it's almost like it is culture. Yeah. Yeah. And like for you, when it comes to say like sharpening the tools and the craft, like do you have daily exercises or weekly exercises or things that you try to implement in your creative routine that
Now it's shifted.
Mishu Hilmy (29:04.578)
help you with say directing or writing like what's it look like for you when it comes to say cultivating your craft.
have some books that I reference. Well, right now I'm working on a little bit of something every day, because I'm kind of split between three projects. I'm working on two features and a TV pilot. So I'm heavily in my writing bag, but I haven't always been very confident writing. So I have to constantly just feed my brain with books. There's this screenwriting book called The Screenwriter's Bible that I love so much. I believe that guy's name is
a David Trotter, I believe. one? my God, I love that one. It's so good. Like out of all the screenwriting books that I've owned, cause I had saved the cat and I threw that one away, but out of all the screenwriting books that I've owned, that one really just breaks it down for you, in the best ways. And it uses incredible examples. So that is a frequent, I think.
It's so good, it's the best reference.
Sanicole Young (30:08.002)
The cover is tearing off of my book. I've opened it so many times.
Yeah, I had to buy a new edition. think I have the seventh edition. think my fifth edition was just like falling apart.
Yeah, yeah. It's like, my God. But man, it's so good. And also there are television writers that are on TikTok every day giving tips on what you should avoid, what you should think about, you know, and they're just giving these tips away, you know, and you can look them up. They don't mind you checking their credentials. They don't mind you asking questions.
Knowing that that social media tool is there is so very helpful because they, know, writing is to be respected. It takes a lot of brain power to write. I mean, even when I'm writing, I'm pulling my hair out because I'm like, my God, I'm trying to understand. So you want to make sure, or at least I am making sure that I am just getting writing nuggets, talking to writing professionals or listening to them. Some of them have very fantastic platforms.
And I've got my TikTok finally. I've got my TikTok algorithm to like, off all of the foolish videos. And now I'm seeing screenwriting videos all the time. While I'm seeing directing videos all the time. So it's like really great. So now I'm like curating my social media to saturate it with filmmaking. So it's constantly coming to me and I'm not, you know, I don't have to go out of my way. It's in my fingertips. You know what mean? And I think that's really cool that you have that access.
Mishu Hilmy (31:41.838)
Yeah. I think it's also really empowering that you speak to it because it's like, yeah, I do that on Instagram where it's like, oh, I'm just getting like foul videos or perhaps all videos like, and I'll just tap like not interested, not interested in it. At some point I just got to keep hitting not interested. So then I'm getting things that are like nourishing for what I want to do rather than we could idly rot by watching like just dumb, unhealthy, just like unhealthy empty calorie content rather than.
All right, if I am on this, you know, dangerous, le addictive platform, how can I at least make the experience more a reminder of like what I would rather be doing with my time?
Yes. And I think TikTok, I mean, they're going to mess with it more, but the early TikTok was fantastic. It just, it immediately found the things that you, you know, you spent time watching. Not that it's too far away from there now, but I'm just glad I'm at the point now where I can open it and see some filmmaking stuff when before it was just the viral video that went viral that everybody's seen or the political event that happened and not everybody's mad. You know, it's like,
You know, it's hard to create. It's so many distractions. It's so many.
Yeah, but as an artist, you get to be self-aware and choose the environment and the images you're feeding yourself. I think it takes a degree of self-awareness and discipline to make that an active curatorial choice rather than I think some people might just be in a default mindset of not even having the awareness. No, you can choose what you consume and hopefully it benefits. The ideal version is it's benefiting your growth toward the life you want to live rather than.
Mishu Hilmy (33:19.352)
You just disappeared four hours of your day.
Right. was, I was really sickly addicted to TikTok when I first got up. was like, my God. It took me a while to get it to work for me. It took me a while.
I had to put lot of blockers on my phone too. like, right, you've got your 20 minute fix and then you can't look at it for another five hours.
Yes, you just have to walk away like, all right, I've had enough. This is it. This is it.
No. Great. And so you're like currently, you're developing some projects right now and it seems like it's fairly heavy on the writing side. So like, you know, how, how are you? Like, cause you started early talking about like more, more, more. So like three, three projects and sort of development and maybe even pre-production. Like it just seemed like an interesting head game where it's like you party wants to do more, but is there another part that's like just not seeing what is enough for what's satisfying in the moment? I'm curious, like that relationship with more.
Sanicole Young (34:15.469)
Well, you know, I've been known for making short films for quite some time and I have often got the question of when are you going to make a feature? When are you going to make a feature? I honestly wasn't interested in making a feature because I didn't feel like I came across a subject that spoke to who I was. I I want my first one to speak to who I am. So I was waiting on it. I was waiting on it to come and be introduced to me.
But I did have all these really short stories that I thought, you know, I really feel passionate about this. Let me push these out. But again, I'm the type of filmmaker where a idea for a story can remain in my head for years before I move on it. So, Smoking Gun, and you saw Smoking Gun at Midwest Film Festival, but with Smoking Gun, Smoking Gun had been in my head for two years.
I wrote that film as a spec, well, off of like the spec script that I wrote for the TV pilot. And I just used that moment to just kind of play it out. And I actually had a showrunner look at it for it to be developed. And she was like, I think this is great. But she's like, you got to develop it and do more. And so we spent two years developing it.
just developing it a lot more, just talking about it. And then as we're talking, the climate is changing. So we're like, God, the climate is changing. So, you know, some of the projects I've just had, you know, there's no timeline on when things, you know, none of your films are gonna be done all at once, but you can be kind of playing a toy with an idea and then all of a sudden something happens and it becomes more real to you.
So with, with smoking gun, kind of lay dormant for two years, but we were kind of in the background developing it and it has so many moving parts cause it's a drama thriller. So, and I want to get it right. So it's like, I'm not rushing it. It's just a project that I know is there, you know? But yeah, in the writing space, it has been hard to navigate between them. Cause I think the type of person where I've just kind of kind of settled in the project I was creating and.
Sanicole Young (36:28.782)
I was all things that project, but I've learned in the film industry that you have to be fluid and you have to kind of take intentional time with each project. So I try to just take intentional time instead of being neglective because some projects are moving faster than others. Like Take 290 is moving fast. Even the title of it, people are like Take 290. So. Right.
because there's just moving faster. It's like, okay, this project needs more attention because if people are buzzing it, they're talking about it. We gotta get this done. We gotta really zero in on this. And then we got these other ones. So it's good to have like four or five projects because in those spaces, and I'm not in those rooms often, because I'm not very social. But when I am in filmmaking spaces, the first thing they ask you, well, what else you got? First thing, first thing. Yeah, I just finished a project.
Like you could just finish running a race. You're soaking wet, you're sweating. And somebody's like, hey, what else you got? And it's like, that's, did you know how much it took for me to get here? For me to just stand in front of you and ask questions about, mean, answer questions about this. like.
It's Epson flows. Every project is not at the same speed. You're getting more downloads and more clues and more whatever from whatever project within your repertoire. That is what you attack. So you attack what is relevant now, what's buzzing now. You attack that and then you look back and you say, okay, I have these other babies. And then you present those babies once you get that tantalizing one complete. But I think it's great.
to honor all your ideas. They all may not develop into bigger projects, but they're your ideas, they're yours. And they're there for you to explore. They're not there for no reason. You can try to dismiss it, but you thought that for reason. It was something going on around you where you thought, hey, that might be something. And maybe I'll come back to it tomorrow if I feel this way, or maybe three months from now. Let me check if I still feel this way.
Sanicole Young (38:40.652)
Like some people test themselves that way. I don't, sometimes I know. Sometimes I know like, this is gonna be great. Like when I thought about Smoking Gun, I said, this is a TV show I've been waiting on. You know, I was so excited. And even though it was mine, I was like, man, if this was somebody else's and I was watching it, I would be excited, you know? So I think it's the level of excitement, but you're interested in all of it. You know what I mean?
And you can't do it all at once. So you just have to take your time.
Totally. Yeah. think honestly, I saw this on TikTok maybe a year ago of like someone talking about creative projects as relationships and like some friendships you might see them once a year, but when you connect in it, you know, it's great. Other relationships, you might be seeing them every weekend to treat creative projects similarly of like, there's no shame if you might be away for a few weeks, a few months. There's no need to guilt it. There's no need to shame it. You treat your projects as more of a relationship that you check in, you nurture.
rather than it's sort of like zero sum. This take at 290, you know, like I can't, I can't, like I'm Yeah. It's like, okay, no other, other relationships have durability. They have confidence. They have trust and you to like have that trust, you can return to it and it'll still be there waiting to be embraced, waiting to be loved. So like that's how I've been trying to reframe my relationships with other projects that have been a little bit quieter and, you know, I just had to look at in a while versus like beating myself up like, you, you've, you've abandoned everything you know, in love.
And I think projects take their own pace. like, if you're expecting it to be fast, it may not be fast. It may be slow. You know, it may just need time to develop and come together.
Mishu Hilmy (40:19.34)
Yeah. Yeah. And I do think it's funny you mentioned sort of the weird industry. I think it's like a strange habit. Like I try to catch myself and not ask like, well, what are you doing next?
don't think people realize how problematic it is. It's very problematic. Because it keeps you in a, I don't want to say pressure cooker, but in some ways it's a little bit of pressure. It's like, man, I got to have something else in my pocket. And if I don't, I feel bad. And it's like, you may not have that next idea. It doesn't make you less of an artist or makes you feel like you're behind. It shouldn't make you feel like you're behind. You have to create at your pace.
is.
Sanicole Young (41:00.458)
and create how the project is speaking to you. Cause I feel like if you rush it, you can probably typically, or you will, that's something that can be authentic. Right. If you're really touching folks and really reach some folks and because you're hasty or impatient, you're pushing it beyond the potential though of, well, you're pushing it like you're holding it back from the potential that it could possibly be by you, you know, centering something else beyond the project. some.
filmmakers center their careers like, I got to hurry up and make this thing so I can make it to the end. It's like, I don't think it's how that that's not how it works. You connect to a project, you see it all the way through, regardless of whether someone else is passing you by. Your friend could be in Sundance. That's just not what's meant for you right now. But you're a rush your project thinking like.
gotta hurry up so I can get it on Sunday and it's like, that is not smart. Like be smart, okay? It's that don't rush your projects. Like let them come to you. Let them feel full. You should feel, your belly should be full when your project is finished. And if you feel hungry, then you in trouble.
Yeah. Like this, like, mean, I think about some of these ideas of like, you're, if you're focused more on the past, you might feel typically depressed. And if you focus on the future, you might be anxious. it's like, think filmmaking lends itself to a preoccupation with the future. Like, I need this project. I need to get this. I need to get that. So all this like obsession with like, what's next? What's, what's on the future horizon is creating sort of an anxious state rather than like, what am I enjoying presently? And just like being where you're at today with your career.
trusting like, okay, like, did I do enough today rather than like, because then like, what's the life like, what's the price of that life? If like, you're always waiting for the next better thing, then you're gonna be miserable. You might have a bunch of awards and statues, but then it's like, you're just waiting for the next award, I guess.
Sanicole Young (42:57.742)
But no, I'm just ready to make a mark on just being a black filmmaker, making films about just endearment, love, relationships, hardships, grief, especially, you know, I'm a black woman. So from a black perspective, it's important. I've seen some of the trauma that black people have gone through where they are not given access to help for those traumas or
coming from broken families that they now they're adults and it's hard for them to navigate relationship. So those are really, really real things. And I know that my people love to laugh and we love to, you know, we can create jokes from our pain just to get through it. You know I mean? I think that's the beauty of who we are, but I also think it's a very necessary space for us to see those very difficult conversations, those difficult relationships.
And, you know, things that are just not so simple, things that you love that are not simply easily to handle. And that's where I've built my focus in creating films and stories that I feel like can be healing and uplifting. And, you know, I was a big John Hughes fan. Yeah, I was a big John Hughes fan because I felt like John Hughes knew what it was. I think he knew what it was to tell an endearing story without it going.
Yeah.
Sanicole Young (44:26.05)
far left, like without it going like in Curly Sue, for instance, he could have shown Curly Sue as like a little crackhead, you know, girl, pickpocketing people. No, she was adorable. She was and she was mischievous, but she was adorable. She was likable. She was like a round the way girl with the kind of what I wanted to create in training wheels where it's like, I'm not trying to create this this image of what America wants to put on a black kid.
I want to create a black kid that's in her environment and just looking for a dad. it's nothing deep about that. It's just a human experience. And I've always wanted to connect with and uplift black people appearing human, but just having regular problems, just regular navigations or financial situations that's hard to navigate. Or I got a dream and I can't finance my film and I'm a black.
woman. So, you know, it's that it's just what keeps you in the game or at least that's what keeps your heart beat going.
Yeah, it's sort of like beautiful challenges. Cause I wonder from your artistic perspective, there's the risk of like one far side is melodrama and the other far side is sentimental wish fulfillment. like, how do you, as an artist navigate your perspective on like what type of stories you want to tell? Like, I think it's fine that there is a melodrama and wish fulfillment type stuff out there, but where are you as an artist of like creating these sort of maybe multifaceted stories?
I think where I am is I would like to get down to like the realness of like getting to the core of a relationship right now is where I am specifically. think relationship can be very complex. Not that it hasn't been done for African Americans because I've seen us do it well.
Sanicole Young (46:23.544)
But I think more of that needs to be done. So maybe that's when I started our conversation, I said more. Yeah. Because, because I haven't seen enough of it, I think. So yeah, so yeah. But I think, yeah, I think relationship, navigation, trauma, complication, grief, like all of those things are just wildly complex. And then when you look at the African-American experience, they get more complex.
And I think that pursuit and jumping into that is where I am right now and trying to balance like the realness and the fun. I remember when I used to create and I would be so drama, drama, drama. And then my producer was like, send, come on, you got to let us breathe. You got to let us laugh. You got to let us smile. I mean, I know you're passionate and serious about this, but come on, give us a break. So I've been learning.
And call the comedians like, could you give me something funny to put in my melodrama? Because I don't want to... I don't want people to just be crying out the door. You know what mean? I want them to enjoy this experience when they're watching my film and not just be so boggled down by what they see, but just relate to what they see. You know, I don't want to boggle nobody down. So I think I'm trying to balance what's real and what's entertaining.
I think directors are experts in contrast and variation. So it's like, if you're just telling a story that's all, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, like heavy, heavy. You're beating the shit out of the audience. Just like beating them with a hammer of like sadness versus like, all right, we had a heavy scene. How can we like show the beauty of life? The originality of life was like, you got some really funny people who are suffering every day. You know, like they're going to throw some laughs down. And it's like your job as an artist and a director to like.
To rules everybody.
Mishu Hilmy (48:13.3)
know how to pull those levers to create something that's meaningful, entertaining, has variation and contrast. And it's hard to do when you are really serious about the subject matter or you understand the heaviness or the pain of it. And that's why it's a craft. It's like a very hard thing to do.
And I really think that in just watching television, I think my favorite relationship show right now is Shrinking. And I don't know if it's because they're shrinks, but they have a way of mixing comedy and real things. And it still hits you like a ton of bricks. It's like, man, like that was funny, but ooh, you know I mean? They do it so well, you know? So I need to probably watch some more of series.
so I can tap into that. I mean, what they're doing is very magical. It's magical.
I think it is magic. I had a similar relationship with that TV show, Dave, which is this absurd, almost offensive comedy sometimes. And then these beautiful moments around mental health and being on tour within the rap culture and whatnot. it's like finding that. It's a lot to learn. And then for you, when it comes to say comedy, developing those comedy relationships and having help on scripts, because you recently directed, co-directed a comedy special. I'm curious how that was.
compared to say, you know, developing features or directing shorts.
Sanicole Young (49:36.534)
Very different, very different. There was one person to please and his name was Little Real. But no, when I first started talking to Real, he was very passionate about coming back home to Chicago to make a comedy special. And he wanted it to have a classic, kind of like old school comedy special look. And looked at some old school comedy specials that were very.
you know, special to him. Some that were directed by Robert Townsend. I want to say, I believe it was Eddie Murphy, Raw. But they have like a very just old school retro type of thing. And he was like, I want it to be personal because, you know, I'm about to get married. You know, my life is going into a particular area and I want to be able to talk about that, you know, you know, at home. And when we started, it's funny because he didn't release the
stand up to us. So we're making plans for the special and we have no idea what he's going to do. And he told me one day, said, nobody's going to see the set until I get out there on stage. Nobody's going to see it. And I was like, okay, okay. So my job was really just to make sure he looked good, make sure that we had the angles and the things that he wanted. He didn't want to see any audience. He wanted it to be more of a personal story. we wanted to make him happy.
And then like the technical elements, like was it three or six cameras? you know, did you also assist on the edits? Did you supervise on the edits? curious, like, cause they're shooting a live theatrical piece, you know, a super challenging, especially it was at one night or did you do two or three nights of taping?
So we did one night. We did one night of taping. We did do some like preliminary planning before at DeSable. We did a three camera setup. I don't think Rell wanted to over complicate the setup because it was, it was a lot of personal things he was discussing. So we wanted to make sure that we made a very intimate looking special.
Sanicole Young (51:44.66)
And shout out to Chris Rohano because he was my team on the rail special and also worked with him on training wheels. So me and Chris, it's pretty simple to know what Chris wants. know, he's very vocal when he walks on a set and then we'll pow wow and he'll bounce some creative ideas off me and I'll do the same and he'll be like, we can make that work or not, or let's think about this. So he's very talented.
and just a great collaborator and just the overall just fantastic DP. So working with him again and just making sure that we got very close to what Real wanted was success for us. And then, you know, being regarded as a Chicago crew, making a special for a Hollywood, you know, name. You know, I think there's a stigma on Chicago crews or just Chicago filmmaking in general. Like we can't, you know, measure up to LA folks or...
we're producing on a half baked level and that's just not true. We're doing the same things that filmmakers in LA are doing. We're making the same pursuits. Now I will say that the ground is more fertile in LA when it comes to opportunities and when it comes to just connecting with people in the industry. But oftentimes we will have LA people come to Chicago and criticize the filmmaking industry here when we're doing the same things and sometimes better.
Like y'all don't have no architecture out in LA. Y'all come to Chicago for that. And I know that because I've worked in television for the last six years and that's all y'all want. And y'all get from LA. see they don't want to talk about that. They don't discuss that. They come to Chicago and they consider us half-baked. So I'm just glad that a Chicago crew can get together, be professional, push out a professional project that was sold on a high platform and we can all sit back and be proud of it. That was successful.
Yeah, that's awesome. then I'm curious, and then like post-production wise, like how is that? Were you more directing sort of the live elements or did you also sit in and help supervise the grading, the Yes.
Sanicole Young (53:54.798)
Well, for real, the grading was very important because of the look. Yeah. Of the look we were going for. Ryan, out to Ryan.
Six silver?
Yes, quick slide.
Yeah, yeah, was great.
Ryan was amazing. He knew exactly what we were going for after we kind of gave him some examples of different comedy specials. And he just found a look that was really just dynamic. Real loved it. We all loved it. You know, and it was funny because I had a friend that was like, I've never seen a comedy special shot like this.
Mishu Hilmy (54:31.566)
Ha ha ha.
And it's like, say, you can tell you're a filmmaker. What are you doing? Like you, you never filmed something like this, you know? And I was like, well, I guess it's the first time for, you know, I guess many where they want to dim it, comedy special was just personal. don't know. But I thought that it was great. Like for me to be like completely submerged into narrative for comedian to call me and say, Hey, you know, I want you to come and.
and help me with this thing. But no, we definitely set in on edits of a post-production. I let Rell lead it because most of it was his material. There were certain jokes that he wanted. He wanted to curate them in a certain way. He wanted to present them in a certain way. So I was there in support.
until I was needed, you know, or if it was something that I felt like needed a little tweaking. No, everything was a collaborative effort. Shout out to Ryan and his wife, his beautiful wife, Anna, who are always very punctual and very good at what they do.
And then for you, how uncertain the industry is and the world is, how have you been staying connected with yourself, with the work, given that there is no certainty?
Sanicole Young (55:47.086)
think if I'm given an opportunity to create anything, I feel like I'm in a good spot. I might not always be emotionally sound, because sometimes things are happening and it's like, okay, what's going on?
Right. Right.
But I think because I love filmmaking so much and because it's been a place of refuge for me where if there are things going on, can turn to it, it can be my friend. And it can make me laugh the way no one else can make me laugh. And it can make me see things the way no one else can make me see things. And it can make me be a person that no one else can make me be. It's a constant...
Sweet and sour friend is constantly building you and shaping you and molding you and helping you grow So I think if you have an opportunity to be able to create I mean that is a blessing and that is something where you say you have those grateful moments where you know life sucks But then there's that moment where it's like, you know, life is not that bad. It might just be worth living I think those are the times where you can turn to
filmmaking turn to that thing that you love. So, when you're ready to kill people or you're ready to just kill your boss or whatever, know, whatever, because people can drive you crazy. But that is when you can turn to that refuge of being a filmmaker, being a creator and knowing that you're valuable. The work that you're doing is valuable and whatever you're going through is only for a moment. And you can get right back to the thing that makes you happy and keeps you going.
Sanicole Young (57:26.326)
You know, being a filmmaker was never about going to Hollywood, being in LA, being on red carpets. It was about creating. It was about changing lives. Well, you know, we're creating to make someone else, give someone else a perspective that, life's not so bad. There's gonna be some bad things that happen, that life's not so bad. People are worth it and life is worth it. So I think if you have the opportunity to do that, you're in a good spot.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely agree. It's like, it's nice to like have something to create meaning and especially with filmmaking and storytelling, I think it allows you to use everything you see and observe in life to create even clearer sense of meaning, like how you relate to it, how you can interact with it and, you know, empower yourself to define your life, your friendships, your community, rather than just being a passive participant. think the beauty of art or storytelling is
You can become an active participant in not only creating worlds, but also defining the world you live in and the world you want to live in, which I think are making us a great tool to do that. All right. Well, Santa Cole, it's been so nice to get to chat and meet and I'm so glad we got to talk.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Sanicole Young (58:37.402)
my goodness. First of all, I would just like to commend you for having such an amazing platform and allowing artists to come on and say and talk about their experiences. So I'm honored for the invitation. Shout out to Don for putting my name in the ballot and somebody voted my name. So thank you, Don. But no, it's been a pleasure. No makers need to be questioned more like this.
to just open up their thoughts and get closer to some of the stories that they are trying to create and then get closer to themselves. So conversations like this are very, very important. So thank you for having one with me. And thank you for creating this opportunity for filmmakers and creatives.
appreciate it.
Mishu Hilmy (59:29.422)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Alrighty, here's the little prompt. End of episode prompt.
I know this is just a nagging idea check. Take two minutes and list every creative idea that's been floating around your head the past month or so and circle the one that keeps coming back. And if you want to do one thing toward that one idea, you circle to just cultivate it. Maybe it's strong a doodle taking 30 seconds to write a snippet or an outline or a sentence about it. Maybe creating a little folder on your desktop or a Google Drive document. So circle that idea and do one step.
So there it is, take a few minutes and just list some ideas and choose one that you've noticed sticking around. All right, thanks for listening and I'll see you later.