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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Tamara Hinckley: when you're in the thick of it, is that when there's all this chaos coming with all the emotions of toddlers and partner dynamics, like we can lose the voices in our heads that tell us what we really care about. And so I like to coach people on coming back to themselves and kind of tuning in to that voice and, and like cultivating stillness and silence so that they can reconnect with who they are or who they wanna be now that this is a new chapter that they've entered
[00:00:28] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:29] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public.
[00:00:40] Shannon Curran: Did I tell you, Mallory, how I know Tamara? So one of my clients, one of the AEs that actually used to be there, he was like, "Oh, you're like a mom person? Like, uh, someone I went to school with is like a professional mom on LinkedIn."
[00:00:53] Shannon Curran: And I was like, "I have so many questions about that. Do you guys like share a locker or something?" Like, he was like, "We were literally like ..." Or I don't know, you guys were like locker buddies, like
[00:01:02] Tamara Hinckley: We had, uh, my maiden name w- started with a Z, so we were together a lot for school stuff. but I've never been called a professional mom. I like that.
[00:01:12] Shannon Curran: I'm not sure if that's the, was that the exact words he used, but it's the ones I heard. I was like, "Yeah, I would love to talk to her." Um, and then we had so many mutuals in common, but, uh, we weren't connected, so I'm, uh, yeah, super excited to get to talk to you. Small, small world this world is, so, uh, that is really funny.
[00:01:29] Mallory Lee: It would be awesome if you could just kind of tell everyone who you are, what your family's like, what you do for work, um, so they can get to know you
[00:01:38] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, sounds good. So I live in San Francisco with my husband and two kids. My girls are two and a half and four and a half. Um, and it feels like it's a really fun time. I think like the first year with two was tough, but now that they're more independent and can play together and are like little humans, um, it's really fun.
[00:02:03] Tamara Hinckley: came out here about 10 years ago for work, um, and ended up staying. So California is unexpectedly home for me. My husband's from San Diego. so yeah, that's us. Happy to go into a lot more detail, but those are the
[00:02:17] Tamara Hinckley: basics.
[00:02:18] Shannon Curran: Is Pin- is Pinterest what brought you out there? Is that how you ended up out there?
[00:02:21] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, so I, um, I met my husband in New York when we were both working in finance, and then we did a maze of long distance over five years where we both had jobs and business school, and then eventually both came out here. and I came out here for Pinterest, and I joined, in 2016 when it was kind of like a tiny little startup.
[00:02:42] Tamara Hinckley: And my parents were like, "Are you sure you wanna go work there?" And I was like, "Yeah, I think there's like something here." and yeah, yeah.
[00:02:50] Shannon Curran: You should be.
[00:02:51] Tamara Hinckley: Um, I was for a long time, for the nine years I was there, shareholder. yeah, so I kind of ended up staying and having a long career there, which was awesome. seeing it through the IPO, I moved from finance where I started into product, and then kind of moved up the ranks.
[00:03:07] Tamara Hinckley: so yeah, it's, it's fun. It's a fun place to work because so many women use it and love it. Um, and I always used to get like, "Oh my God, I love Pinterest," when I would share where I work. And so now when I introduce myself, I'm like, "Oh, this is definitely not gonna be as exciting as this memorable, recognizable brand," but I still think it's awesome.
[00:03:25] Mallory Lee: mean, just what you can do with it after that length of time, having that journey, I think is the coolest part. fun fact, a long time ago I was recruited for a role at Pinterest, and I was excited about it, but they, like, wanted me to move and that wasn't going to happen. So we could have been
[00:03:41] Shannon Curran: those days
[00:03:42] Mallory Lee: life.
[00:03:45] Shannon Curran: I know it's kind of coming back that people are moving for work again, I am
[00:03:48] Mallory Lee: I know. I know
[00:03:50] Shannon Curran: it's crazy. I feel like that was like gone for like a little pre-COVID and then like obviously like the five years around COVID it was like hire from anywhere. And now people are like, "Hey, can you move to San Francisco?"
[00:04:01] Shannon Curran: They're
[00:04:01] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah. It's interesting being here because I think a lot of people left during COVID or moved at least out of the city to be, to have backyards and things. And now the city feels like it's kind of reviving because so many companies are based here, and it's a very expensive place to be because of that too.
[00:04:21] Tamara Hinckley: But, but there's like a new energy I think because of all the people that are coming back and moving here. Um, so it's, it's fun to see it kind of have like 2.0 since I've been here and, um, get to know more people who are in tech
[00:04:36] Shannon Curran: When I was there last week, I was like, "Wow, this is, is back." I was like, 'cause the last time I was there was 2022, and it was, like, really quiet. And I, I've been to San Francisco, like, three times, but always for, like, one day pretty much, like, coming in for, like, an all day. I saw, like, the beauty of a conference room.
[00:04:54] Shannon Curran: You know what I mean? How that goes with, like, work travel. or, like, Salesforce Park, you know what I mean? Like, you see, like, a few thi- you know. Like, I, uh, but I was there for ... It r- I was really only there for a day and a half this time too, but I had ... I was on the East Coast time waking up early and, like, having more time in the city, and I was like, "Wow, it's
[00:05:10] Shannon Curran: I forgot how, like, wonderfully walkable it is," and, like, it just felt like there was humans everywhere, which was not the case last time I was there. So, like, it was really cool to see it kind of, like, rejuvenate itself, um, again, which was very cool.
[00:05:24] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, and I think there's more... People are doing more in-person things again, um, because people are, you know, going into the city to be in offices. But in general, I think it feels like people missed the connection of being in real life. And so s- a lot of people are still remote, and I think they're, like, really excited to go to events.
[00:05:44] Tamara Hinckley: And I host a series of events for my business, and people are like, "I would love to come to dinner and be with other people, especially other moms." Um, so I just, like, love how vibrant it is. Um, and we have a lot of friends nearby who are also in the tech industry, and they're like, "Yeah, it just, it's fun to be here now," which definitely didn't feel that way during COVID.
[00:06:04] Mallory Lee: So tell us more about that. Tell us about your business outside of just being a professional mom on LinkedIn.
[00:06:13] Tamara Hinckley: That is my new
[00:06:14] Shannon Curran: Also known as the CEO of Momentum Rising. Yeah.
[00:06:18] Tamara Hinckley: so I guess I'll start during COVID, um, I really wanted to be a mom. And so in 2020, I remember I was like, it was a couple years after my husband and I got married, and I was like, "Okay," like, "I now have baby fever."
[00:06:34] Tamara Hinckley: Like, "The switch has flipped, and I am ready, and let's do this." Um, and so it took some convincing, but we got there. and it was 2020, so we were kind of like not seeing friends or family, but it didn't happen right away for me, which I thought it would. And after months and months passed, I was like, "Okay, something is wrong here."
[00:06:55] Tamara Hinckley: so I went to see the doctor, and they do like a typical panel for most people if you're not getting pregnant after a few months. And it showed up, um, with an autoimmune disease related to my thyroid called Hashimoto's. And I was like, "I don't even know what my thyroid is. What does this have to do with getting pregnant?"
[00:07:11] Tamara Hinckley: Like, "I thought I could just have a baby. Why is this so hard?" Um, so it's actually really tough because I, I was having fertility challenge. I didn't know if I'd have to do IVF, if I'd ever be able to have kids. This, like, health thing came up, and I thought I was a very healthy person. I did yoga, I exercised, all that.
[00:07:30] Tamara Hinckley: So it's actually really tough. And because we were, not able to see people, I felt really isolated and couldn't really talk to other people who are also struggling. and I think many people shared the joys of, like, we're having a baby, but few people were openly sharing that they were also struggling.
[00:07:45] Tamara Hinckley: So, um, I ended up starting writing a l- newsletter about this to kind of get the word that like, hey, like having a baby can be, like, harder than you might anticipate to normalize that. Um, so ended up getting pregnant naturally, which was awesome. Had my first daughter. and actually for me, going back to work after my first daughter was not so bad in hindsight.
[00:08:09] Tamara Hinckley: came back to work early, actually. I think I was just missing, like, using my brain, being around other people, and just feeling like me again, um, like the work part of me, because I think for me, staying home, I had like a six-month mat leave, which was really generous, but I was just going crazy with like the Groundhog Day of naps every day and feeling like I didn't get anything done, but I was really tired.
[00:08:34] Tamara Hinckley: I was going crazy. I think I had some like, like postpartum depression that time, but, but I went back to work, and I felt great. and I kind of like raised my hand with my manager and was like, "I want to take on a big project. I wanna get promoted. I'm still ambitious." and I ended up getting promoted twice.
[00:08:50] Tamara Hinckley: the second time I was pregnant- Seven months pregnant with my second daughter. So I was kinda like working mom saying, "I got this. I'm a professional mom." Um, and
[00:09:01] Shannon Curran: with a profe- yeah, exactly. But a LinkedIn professional mom, just like a
[00:09:05] Tamara Hinckley: yes. Yes. and then for me, really the transition from one to two kids was where things got really tough. I think I overestimated. I was like, "I've done this once before. It worked out well. The second time should be easier, right? I should know
[00:09:21] Shannon Curran: I was so
[00:09:22] Shannon Curran: overconfident too. I was
[00:09:23] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah.
[00:09:25] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, and people told me, they tried to warn me.
[00:09:26] Tamara Hinckley: They're like, "This is gonna be 10x harder." I was like, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm so efficient. Yeah, I got this." Um, and it was... It just, like, really hit me like a ton of bricks. I had really bad postpartum depression with my second daughter, which I also wasn't expecting, so that was kinda surprising. and then when I went back to work, I had really bad imposter syndrome because I had just gotten promoted before I went on leave, so my scope had doubled while I was out.
[00:09:54] Tamara Hinckley: And so I come back to work sleep-deprived, like tough home situation, older daughter having a lot of trouble adjusting to being a sister, baby's not sleeping. And then at work I've got, like, all this stuff being thrown at me and I was just like, "This is really hard." Like, I don't... I feel like I don't know if I can do this.
[00:10:13] Tamara Hinckley: I had this thought that really scared me, like, I, I don't know if I can do this. Like, should I quit? And, and that, like, really scared me because I've always been this ambitious person who, like, really identified with my career. I always wanted to be CEO. Um, and I got the promotion that I'd always wanted at work.
[00:10:30] Tamara Hinckley: I was finally director of product, and I was like, wait a minute, this is, like, a lot harder than I thought. Um, so I... It was, like, a really tough time, and I was, um, just struggling with, like, where do I go to, to talk about this? I can't tell my manager about postpartum depression or that I don't know if I'm qualified to do my job.
[00:10:50] Tamara Hinckley: I can't really, like, tell my friends 'cause a lot of them don't relate to having this kind of pressure at work. I now call that place no-moms land. It's like this place where you're the only mom at the leadership table, where no one else is a mom. You've got all these peers who are males or, or women who don't have kids, and so it's, like, very isolating and kind of eerie.
[00:11:10] Tamara Hinckley: Like, where is everyone else? so I kinda started writing about that as part of my newsletter and on LinkedIn, to kind of say, like, "Is anyone else struggling with this?" and found that it
[00:11:20] Tamara Hinckley: really
[00:11:21] Tamara Hinckley: resonated. Yeah, exactly. I was like, "Is it just me? Is it all in my head? Am I going crazy?" Um, and found that a lot of people had kind of, like, empathy for how hard it was, but the advice was kinda like, "Yeah, this is just hard.
[00:11:35] Tamara Hinckley: Like, this sucks, and this is why people leave the workforce."
[00:11:39] Shannon Curran: Yeah. We, similar situation to this podcast is it's like, well s- some people are figuring it out. Like s- not everyone is miserable. Like, I, like, it's, this is why we're talking to o- this is the exact experience Mallory and I... Well, not the exact, but, like, such a similar experience that Mallory and I have had talking to now dozens of women or moms that have really high-pressure jobs and also want to actually be around their kids and be present for them.
[00:12:03] Shannon Curran: Like, it's this thing that, like, is kind of new in the last, like, I don't think the feeling is new, but the, like, want to, to completely rip open the system and find a way to do it is a little bit new, um, I think in the last five or so years
[00:12:16] Mallory Lee: Ja. it feels like there's more dialogue about it. And, and I was excited that, like, a lot of people started talking about this, um, but I just wasn't hearing any good solutions. Um, and so I was kinda like, "Okay, this is unacceptable." Also, as a daughter of two girls, I had what, um, someone calls, like, a feminist awakening, where I was like, "Okay, I do not want my kids to live in a world where this is, like, the best we can do."
[00:12:42] Tamara Hinckley: And so I, I never thought I would start a company. Um, uh, my husband is an entrepreneur. I was supposed to be the stable, corporate primary breadwinner, but I was just like, "I gotta solve this problem. it feels really important and urgent. Um, and I don't even know what the solution is, but I'm gonna try something."
[00:12:59] Tamara Hinckley: So I, I left Pinterest about a year ago, and started experimenting with, like, what can I do to, to help people who are in this stage of having what I call, like, a big job and little kids, which is, like, this very unique kind of, like, pressure phase. Um, so I started with a dinner series, which I sold you, bringing moms together, and then found that, like, people really valued being with other moms who are in this phase.
[00:13:26] Tamara Hinckley: Um, and that turned into a group coaching co-program that I now run for senior women in tech who have little kids under the age of four. So that's the, the long version of the story and, and how we got to where we are.
[00:13:37] Mallory Lee: Wow, that is awesome. I am thinking back because it's been a little bit longer for me, but when you have the second one and both kids start getting, like, opinions about things and they start interacting with each other more, I, I think that's when the wheels kind of come off. And mine both happen to be boys, which comes with its own challenges, and I actually have three boys now.
[00:14:05] Mallory Lee: But when I had two boys, I remember that was when I first started asking myself, like, "Am I crazy? Am I the only person going through this?" And I felt like I was. And then, you know, slowly you kind of start to figure out that a lot of people go through these things. And so that's actually, like, part of the, like, opening lines of the show is, like, you're not crazy.
[00:14:31] Mallory Lee: You're not alone. Like, everybody goes through these types of things. Um, and yeah, I think some people have g- just kinda like grown past it. Like, for myself, my kids are now 10, eight, and almost seven, so that, like, super deep tumultuous time has passed us by. But there's still so many intricacies and things to figure out, and, you know, getting the community for that I think is everything
[00:15:00] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, and I think some people feel bad kinda complaining about this. Like, there's like a little bit of taboo to say how hard it is because I think there's a fear of like, well, you chose to be a parent. Like, you chose to do this. And also, like, I really wanted to be a mom, and I'm really grateful to have my daughters and I really love them, and at the same time, there are moments when it feels really hard and impossible.
[00:15:26] Tamara Hinckley: And so I think, like, there's this nuance of holding that tension that is hard to do in like a public dialogue on the socials where, you know, people kind of come at each other and, and I just, I think it's important to be able to be safe and honestly express like the vulnerable parts that are hard while also recognizing that like it is a really beautiful, powerful thing to be a mother.
[00:15:49] Tamara Hinckley: And so I think that nuance is best expressed in like a small intimate space with people who are in a similar stage who can really like allow you to be your full honest self. And that's why I try to bring people together who can talk honestly about some of this stuff.
[00:16:05] Shannon Curran: well, the internet in general is very binary, right? It, like, hates nuance, and it, like, really struggles with ... And I, I think the reason why we felt so compelled, or I know I can only speak for myself, to start to have these kinds of conversations is I also felt some shame in wanting to spend more time with my kids because I was a professional woman, We talk often about holding multiple identities at once, and I think pro- I actually want to hear your take on the reason why you've gone your ICP is, like, four and under, because my hypothesis is that you are managing a identity change in that time more than they are, right?
[00:16:43] Shannon Curran: Like, I ... Someone told me, they were like, "Oh, your life's gonna change when you bring your baby home." And I goes, "Well, uh, it doesn't really. It changes slowly over time." Like, it doesn't actually change immediately. It's like they grow and you grow, and it's all, it's actually pretty incremental. And then you look up at one point and you're like, "Oh, I am fundamentally a different person than I was a year ago."
[00:17:04] Shannon Curran: It just happened in, like, a ton of micro, micro moments, right? Like, that happened over time. So I think, um, I'm still in the th- so my kids are two-and-a-half and one, so I'm still, like, really, I'm really there. Like, there is, uh Woo. Um, I didn't even like the word mom until after my son turned one, 'cause I was like, "I don't actually feel like a mom.
[00:17:23] Shannon Curran: I feel like my liver's on the outside of my body, and it's, like, eating off of me all day." Like, I don't feel ... You know what I mean? Like, like, I'm not mothering really. I'm, like, keeping this thing alive. Like, and now, you know, I'm, like, I certainly have, like, a more cognitive, like, person that I'm parenting, but, uh, he's still, you know, dependent on me for many things, right?
[00:17:44] Shannon Curran: Um, so I'd love to hear a little bit about what got you ... Was it 'cause that was the situation you were in, or you just felt like there was, like, a really clear need at that point?
[00:17:53] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, I think that this is when the identity sh- the identity shift, which matrescence, you probably both know this word, um, it kind of collides and I, I ... This is one of the things I teach in my program, is that we for so many years identify as being ambitious or professional. Like work is our, a big part of our identity.
[00:18:14] Tamara Hinckley: And many other things too, uh, you know, wife, friend, sister, et cetera. But like the professional one is where many of us like put all, our all into it. And then mother comes online and during mat leave at least, that is the thing that you're doing all in, right? You're like nursing around the clock. And, um, if you have the privilege of having time to be home, like that is your full-time job.
[00:18:38] Tamara Hinckley: And then when those two things collide, when you go back to work, you still have the same amount of time. Um, and you have two things that are both so important to you. And it's hard because you're like, "Well, obviously my child and their safety and like nurturing them comes first. But also, like I can't do that 24/7 and, and do this big job that requires a lot of time, energy, attention."
[00:19:02] Tamara Hinckley: So like this collision, I think, is when people have this identity shock. I think it's, it's often happens like within six to 12 months of having a baby when the demands start to, to, to have, force you to make really big trade-offs. Like your baby is sick and you obviously need to go be there for them, but you have a meeting with the executive team.
[00:19:22] Tamara Hinckley: Like there's a real big trade-off to be made, and the answer is obvious, but it's still hard. Or, um, going on that first work trip and having to figure out, like, "How am I gonna pump at the offsite?" Um, right? Like you kind of have to do it, but it just like the, it, there's like all this little friction that builds up and you're just like, "Wait a minute.
[00:19:41] Tamara Hinckley: I, everything I used to do before being a mom is so different now at work. And then outside of work, I have so little free time." So I think, matrescence takes years, and it restarts with every child. And so I think someone could be in it for four years, and often people have another child in that time horizon.
[00:20:01] Tamara Hinckley: And I think that's when it like really hits for a lot of people, is when baby number two comes online. So I've found that that's kind of the sweet spot of when the pain is the deepest and it feels so overwhelming. And when so many people ask, like, "Should, can I really make this work?" so yeah, that I, I, I just find that, that's the time when people need the most help and I'm like, "You got this.
[00:20:22] Tamara Hinckley: Like you're not the only one struggling." And I, and I wanna help them before they get past that phase when they're either they make it through and they're good, or they end up leaving when they maybe wouldn't have otherwise.
[00:20:31] Shannon Curran: Mallory, we had such a similar conversation of, I know of it's hard, but you still have to do it. Like, you knew that I ... Well, you were on a trip, or like couldn't go on a trip you wanted to go on because there was something happening with your kids, and you knew what the answer was. You're like, "Of course I'm staying with my kids."
[00:20:46] Shannon Curran: But I need like ... But reached out to me, obviously, 'cause she knew I would understand that it still s- like it was ... She knew what she was supposed, what you had to do, but it still s- sucked. You were like, It did. A- and I hadn't even let myself make the decision yet when I texted you. So this was when RevOps AF was going on in New York, and I knew it was the same as the last week of school for the kids, but I looked at the calendar. I figured out how to make it work so that I could still be back the morning of the last day. And so I was super excited to go. And then out of nowhere, we had a surprise kindergarten graduation concert the day of the event. And so at first, you know, I was like super upset. I was like, "This sucks. What am I going to do?" And there was the tiniest part of me that was like, "Is this the time where I potentially just skip something, like, and do something for myself?"
[00:21:47] Mallory Lee: And I think I was like pretending to be very torn about it, even though I wasn't really that torn. And I texted Shannon and I said, "Cohen's graduation is the same day as RevOps AF." And your instant reply, Shannon, was like, "Oh, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to cancel your trip." And I was like I was like, "Damn it, you're right."
[00:22:12] Shannon Curran: Sorry, I'm just being a good friend. Do you know what I mean? I was like, "I can entertain this for another half an hour with you if you want, or I can just get where we know we're gonna get to," which is your baby is ... 'Cause I knew the second you got on that plane, you were gonna be like, "What am I doing? Like, what am I doing?"
[00:22:29] Shannon Curran: Like, I knew you were gonna have ... And I was like, "You're not gonna be able to enjoy it." I was like, but I, but I did, I, I remember saying to you, "I know how hard that is, though." I'm not saying it's not gonna be hard, but I know that that, like, is the decision you know you have to make, which is, yeah. I canc- I've canceled many a trip this year, um, because I had a daughter.
[00:22:47] Shannon Curran: Uh, my daughter wouldn't, take a bottle, period,
[00:22:50] Shannon Curran: for over a year. And I just went on my first work trip after weaning her after 13 and a half months.
[00:22:55] Mallory Lee: you know, you've talked before about how she didn't take a bottle, right? I've known that. But I don't think I realized that you had to cancel things because of that
[00:23:05] Shannon Curran: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:05] Tamara Hinckley: it's not a choice. Like, it's, it's like a literally to keep her alive you must be around situation. And I think a lot of people who aren't parents can't really comprehend that. Like, I can imagine someone who's not a mom being like, "Oh, just give her a bottle," or, "Oh, give her formula." And it's like, well, it's actually not that simple if she won't do it, and I'm not gonna, like, risk her not eating.
[00:23:27] Tamara Hinckley: so, like, it, it's, like, very primal to be like, "I can't leave my child and have them starve." but also something that is hard to relate to if you're not a parent, and especially if you haven't given birth and don't have that, like, biological need to nurture your children. So I, yeah, oh my gosh, Shannon.
[00:23:43] Tamara Hinckley: That's like, my heart goes out to you for having to be in that position
[00:23:52] Shannon Curran: Yeah. I'm also extremely privileged that I could do that and continue to work, right? So I got in-home care so that I could continue to nurse her. We started solids extremely early. Luckily she had no major allergies. Like four months old she was eating full solid food. it's funny you say this because s- people's response is often, "Wow, that's amazing that you did that." And my response is, I didn't choose to do it. Like, amaze- great, give me the cape, give me the medal. But, like, I didn't... Or some people will be like, "Oh, I didn't make it that far breastfeeding," like, "I gave up." It's like, guys, you don't understand how much I tried to give up. Like, I don't think you get that, like, I tried to give up.
[00:24:26] Shannon Curran: I literally said this time, three months and done, like, 'cause of how hard weaning my first one was, and I didn't even make it that far with my first one. I made it, like, five months or so. I was like, I don't, like, this isn't, like, a badge of honor. This is just, like, I, I had a realization that, like, I chose to be her mom.
[00:24:42] Shannon Curran: She did not choose to be a baby. And I, like, until she's one years old, like, I am technically, like, she's reliant on me for nutrition, like, at this point. So, so yeah, one trip I brought her, but then I, I have a bunch of clients that offered to fly me out to come see them to do in-person activities, do all this stuff, and I had to say no to all of it.
[00:25:03] Shannon Curran: I had to say no to seeing, I usually take a trip every year to see some of my friends. I had to say no to that. I had to say no to, even just, like, I had to be around for bedtime, 'cause I had to nurse her before she fell asleep. So it wasn't just like... So I had to say no to a bunch of, like, nighttime activities at the beginning, like work dinners or even, like, social things.
[00:25:21] Shannon Curran: Like, I just had to say no, or she was coming with me and sleeping on my chest at the dinner table until we went home, which I did do many times, right? Because I... and you have no idea that that was my second baby, right? Like you were saying. Totally different than my first, right?
[00:25:36] Shannon Curran: Like you were saying, like, you had PPD with your second. You didn't have it with your first. Like, it's unique every single time
[00:25:43] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, and I think this is where the narrative that, like, motherhood requires sacrifice, think can be true. Like, you, you do
[00:25:50] Tamara Hinckley: have to make trade-offs. Um, and it... I, I think there's, a fine line between it being, like, a victim mentality, because we did choose this, but it does require, like, really big sacrifices, and everyone makes them.
[00:26:02] Tamara Hinckley: Mallory, like you were saying, missing the events, too. Um, I, I think this is where we can feel so torn in, in different identities, and why it really collides in these first couple years. Because I do think, especially as my kids are getting older, like, I feel confident that I could miss an event now if it was for the right thing, for their job or the work that really mattered, and I would feel okay with that.
[00:26:27] Tamara Hinckley: Like, for me, it's usually my kids come first, but sometimes I don't have to be there every single time, and I want them to know that, like, I have an identity outside of just being their mother. something I've noticed in talking to women who, when they've hit this phase, there's, like, often a big question of, do I still want to do this job?
[00:26:46] Tamara Hinckley: Like, they're looking at work in a very different way because they're like, "Well, if work is forcing me to go on this trip and I have to give up nursing my baby, that's not a decision. Like, I can't actually do that job." But there's, there's, like, kind of that gray zone of, well, should really go to that happy hour 'cause I'm gonna get face time with my skip level, and that'll help, but I have to skip it.
[00:27:06] Tamara Hinckley: And, and so there, there... You kind of, like, put on these new glasses when you're looking at your job. And, and some people I think are like, "I don't wanna do that job anymore because I don't care enough, and the sacrifice isn't worth it. So I need to find something where I'm more invested in the work, and I feel like it's gonna be less of a trade-off."
[00:27:27] Tamara Hinckley: Because if, if you're doing work that you're not connected to, then it's not gonna be worth missing all those things. So a lot of people I work with end up making a career shift, and it's not always to a job that is more flexible or, like, a downshift. Sometimes it's actually into a bigger role or a, like, a new job that requires more time and energy, where they're like, "I'm just disengaged.
[00:27:48] Tamara Hinckley: Like, this isn't worth it. But if I get to go be COO at a startup that's working on some, like, really cool thing, like, that'll be worth it." And so I think people... This accelerates career tr- transitions for folks because, they just decide, the work has to be worth leaving my kids for, and so I need to pick a job that really matters
[00:28:05] Mallory Lee: I love that because I think that the knee-jerk reaction is to assume that you're either going to downshift, like you said, or just burn out and run away altogether, which, which I've done before. Um, or or some combination of like, this isn't worth it and because of that you, you downshift. And we've talked to plenty of people who are actually providing really good alternatives for women who do wanna downshift.
[00:28:37] Mallory Lee: But what I love about what you're saying is that it can also work the opposite way, where maybe you need to actually even step up further into something that is worth that off, like the trade-off. So, that's a new, like a new angle, uh, and I really think that that's awesome
[00:28:55] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah. I, I have a couple folks in mind who, they come to me and they're kinda like, "I think I need to quit or take a break." And I'm like, "Great," like, "Let's talk about what that would look like." and sometimes it's just giving them permission to be able to decide for themselves, not based on what they should do from society or their friends or this narrative.
[00:29:16] Tamara Hinckley: Like, giving them the space to actually think and explore and say like, "Okay," like, "let's take some time for you to think about you." a couple people have ended up taking roles that surprise them 'cause they're like, "Well, when I really sit down and think about it, that is what I want." Um, and so I think it's like I'm very much about slowing down to speed up and giving people space and tools to kind of reassess what they really want.
[00:29:38] Tamara Hinckley: I think the exciting part about this phase, like when you're in the thick of it, is that when there's all this chaos coming with all the emotions of toddlers and partner dynamics, like we can lose the voices in our heads that tell us what we really care about. And so I like to coach people on coming back to themselves and kind of tuning in to that voice and, and like cultivating stillness and silence so that they can reconnect with who they are or who they wanna be now that this is a new chapter that they've entered
[00:30:08] Shannon Curran: Mallory, you even challenged me earlier when I called my business a lifestyle business. She was like, "Hmm, I don't know that you really created a lifestyle business." Like, I slowed down to speed up, s- to sp- this exact thing that I did, right? Like, I claimed that I wanted less, but what I wanted more was purpose, right?
[00:30:26] Shannon Curran: And I now have, like, I work more than I did when I was in-house, but it's all on my own terms. Like, I have, am, like, building a venture that I never thought I would build, right? Like, h- did that happen with you, too? 'Cause this is kind of like a little meta for you, right? Because, like,
[00:30:42] Shannon Curran: the business you built helps people build a business, right?
[00:30:44] Shannon Curran: Like, how is this for you?
[00:30:47] Tamara Hinckley: when I left Pinterest, I took a month, I called it like a do nothing month or, you know, a micro-sabbatical, and I just really spent some time with myself, like no meetings, no work, nothing. and I thought about what I really wanted. And it came down to building something meaningful, impactful that I would be proud of, that I could tell, tell my girls I was doing.
[00:31:09] Tamara Hinckley: I also decided that I wanted control and flexibility. And so I think a lot of people were like, "Are you gonna raise venture money?" You know, I could do that, and I'm ... I, I don't want that. Like, I don't want a board right now. I don't want that pace. so for me, it was about like what, what will give me the drive and energy?
[00:31:29] Tamara Hinckley: And when I started this work, I got so energized. I think I also work way more now than I used to. Like, anytime I'm outside of my office but I'm around a mom, like I'm in work mode 'cause I'm talking to them and trying to understand how they are and seeing if I can help. So I definitely work more, but I am the good kind of tired at the end of the day, where it's like I got to like write, which I love to do.
[00:31:52] Tamara Hinckley: I like wanna write a book or, I just got to like help somebody. And so it doesn't feel like work as much. and of course, I get to do plenty of things that are not as fun because it's just me and I'm doing a lot of, uh, the grunt work. But I think the cool thing is that, I don't know if you found this, Shannon, but it was kind of like the perfect time to start a company because of AI and how much it enables us to do and how much quickly, more quickly we can move.
[00:32:16] Tamara Hinckley: So I do feel like there's kind of like an accelerant for being able to build this without needing to raise money and to have that control, but also have a lot of impact. it's been kind of an adjustment to figure out like what, what pace of work do I wanna set for myself? I can no longer blame my manager for having me work late.
[00:32:35] Tamara Hinckley: Like, now it's my fault.
[00:32:38] Shannon Curran: I know people joke, they're like, "Your boss is a slave driver." I'm like, "I know."
[00:32:43] Tamara Hinckley: Exactly. And I kind of for the first few, like probably for the first year, I was kind of just like pushing myself as hard as I used to before, and I was like, "This isn't fun. Why am I doing that?" Like, I can take a night off or, um, go to the preschool graduation and not feel guilty.
[00:32:59] Tamara Hinckley: Like, I, I get to decide. So the last couple of months, I've kind of like taken some time to think about how do I wanna work in this chapter and, kind of reoriented myself around my own boundaries and, and both trying to take control of the ... or take, take advantage of the flexibility, but also set goals that I can achieve and, and not, uh, feel like I'm always like running and fast behind.
[00:33:20] Mallory Lee:
[00:33:20] Mallory Lee: you mentioned that your husband had typically been, like, the founder kind of more risky profile in your family. Um, so I'm curious, is he still doing that? And if he is, what is it like to be a two-founder household?
[00:33:39] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah. Um, he is. So we're both in zero to one stages. He's starting an AI company, and I'm starting a non-AI company, so that's kinda nice that we're diversified. But, we told someone at a dinner what we were doing and that we have two kids, and they were like, "Oh, so you have four kids. Two kids and two companies that you're starting."
[00:33:59] Tamara Hinckley: And
[00:33:59] Tamara Hinckley: we
[00:34:00] Shannon Curran: most San Francisco story, a San Francisco love story. You know what I mean? Like that is so
[00:34:05] Tamara Hinckley: so it is kind of wild. Um, I think in some ways it's a blessing because we have ultimate flexibility. we work a lot on the weekends, but we are very flexible during the week and generally can go... Like, my husband took my daughter to the zoo on a Monday, which maybe he wouldn't have been able to do otherwise.
[00:34:24] Tamara Hinckley: So I think the flexibility is great. And, we are very committed to having an equal partnership and both participating. And he's amazing and, like, steps up a ton with the kids. So I think it enables me to go to a work dinner and not feel like there's any resentment. but it is tough because it's a very expensive time in our lives to live here in the city with two kids who have full-time childcare.
[00:34:49] Tamara Hinckley: and, like, we deliberately had to, like, think about what that would look like and plan for it. And, I do feel some pressure to kind of like move quickly in order to get to a place where we feel more financially secure. So, there's a cost to the flexibility, like it doesn't come for free. but yeah, I think we're both working on things that we're excited about.
[00:35:08] Tamara Hinckley: And I have full conviction that what I'm doing is important and eventually get to a place where it feels like I've gotten back to my full-time salary and total income. And those are kind of my milestones is, like, when I hit those I'll feel like, okay, now I'm like back at what I was doing before. Those are like pretty high targets, so for better or worse it'll take a while.
[00:35:28] Tamara Hinckley: Um,
[00:35:29] Shannon Curran: better or for worse. Yeah, exactly. Like you, you set yourself your bar pretty high probably, I can imagine
[00:35:35] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah. But, but I think, you know, I, I've tried over the last year to really think about, like, how much value am I creating? 'Cause I think at first I was like, "Okay, milestone is, like, this revenue number, this revenue." And now I'm like, you know what? That's, like, value capture, and I really care about creating value and helping people.
[00:35:54] Tamara Hinckley: And so, like, when I hear from someone that I helped them and they didn't pay me, like, that still feels like I created value. And so I'm thinking about, like, my broader portfolio of impact, um, and not just, like, what hits my bank account, and that kind of helps, um, when, you know, the fear comes in of like, "Is this gonna work?"
[00:36:12] Tamara Hinckley: I'm like, "Well, it's already working. It's just different success metrics."
[00:36:15] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I feel that way sometimes too. Like our fun little podcast here, we've been going for what? Six months now?
[00:36:24] Mallory Lee: No.
[00:36:25] Mallory Lee: Maybe,
[00:36:26] Shannon Curran: Are we in... We're in matrescence. We're in
[00:36:28] Mallory Lee: yeah.
[00:36:28] Shannon Curran: so we don't remember.
[00:36:30] Mallory Lee: Yes. And people ask how it's going, and I just think to myself like, we probably haven't grown it as much as we want to, or like it's not where we wanna get to yet, but man, everyone I talk to about it is just like, "This is so important.
[00:36:47] Mallory Lee: We need this. This is so amazing." Like, people love it. And so it's the same thing you're kind of saying, I think, Tamara. Like, it gives me that reinforcement of the vision of like, yes, this is something that people, you know, can really benefit from. And, it doesn't hurt that it's really fun to talk to amazing people.
[00:37:08] Mallory Lee: So,
[00:37:09] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, I think it's so important to do it because you enjoy it. Because as you both know, there's so much doubt and fear and just like grunt work that comes with building a business in the beginning, and you kind of have to be a little delusional to think like, "This idea doesn't exist in the world, and I believe it should, and I'm gonna make it happen, and people will love that," right?
[00:37:32] Tamara Hinckley: Like, there's a little bit of like the status quo is not perfect and I can make it better. Um, and so it takes a lot of guts to go and put your name out there and find people to bring on as guests. So like kudos to you both for doing this on top of other work that you're doing. Um, and I, yeah, I, I think it's like fun to do it, not because it's a side project or a passion project, but because it's something that gives you joy, but also can bring a lot of value to other people
[00:38:02] Shannon Curran: Yeah, we always say, uh, I, when I come into... I've been in a, a hormone fluctuation also the last, like, little bit. So some days I'm like, "God, I am just, like, not it. I'm not feeling it." And Mallory will be like, "Don't worry. Like, we're gonna film today. You'll feel better." And it's totally true, like every single time.
[00:38:20] Shannon Curran: Like, it's, I, I get on one of these calls and I'm like, it, because I do think, like, there's this thing about, like, purpose being, like, gasoline for, like, for this, like, this, uh, for feeling like you can propel yourself forward. Like, it really does, like, make such a big difference. And, like you were just saying, the delusion, like the amount of people that said the podcast market is saturated, or everyone's going fractional, Shannon, why would you do that?
[00:38:44] Shannon Curran: Or everyone starting an AI company. I'm sure your husband hears that all the time. It's like, sure, yes, but number one, that means those things have markets, so that's actually good, right? Like, that means, like, people are interested in it if they're, if everyone's doing it. But also, it means that there's an opportunity to make it better, right?
[00:39:00] Shannon Curran: Like, there's, like, I'm not a, like, super wondery person. Like, I'm not, like, a big, like, blank slate, like, create something, invent something that n- has never been seen before. I feel like I'm just, like, generally good at being discerning about, like, this thing exists, but I think it could be better, or I think it could be slightly different.
[00:39:17] Shannon Curran: And, like, I think there's enough room, if it's good, for lots of things, right? Especially in the world of AI. You know how much bad stuff is out there? Like, sta- so much. Your differentiator is just, like, be interesting. Like, be, like, a, like, just be good. Like, there's, like, a little bit, uh, of that around, too, which I always appreciate.
[00:39:39] Shannon Curran: Um, Mallory often brings me back to Earth on a lot of these things. She's like, "You'll be fine. Just listen to an old episode. You'll be fine." Like, and I'm like, "Yeah, that's true."
[00:39:46] Tamara Hinckley: Yeah, and I think with AI, the cost of ideas has gone down, but the cost of executing is still pretty high. Um, like AI can help, but you have to actually have the courage to go and do it. And so I think a lot of people ... Yeah, yeah, and taste and as you said, like having craft and being interesting. And so I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, I should have started that company."
[00:40:11] Tamara Hinckley: And I'm like, "Well, you can. There's like actually nothing stopping you besides yourself." Um, so I, I think taste and courage are actually two things that are gonna help people now because anyone could, but who actually will, and taking that first step can be really scary
[00:40:29] Mallory Lee: Yeah. This feels like a very, um, opportune time to just actually say thank you to Share Your Genius, who produces our show. And the reason I'm thinking about this is because of what you just said. Like, there's a lot of ideas, but getting things going and actually bringing them to life is a whole different story.
[00:40:53] Mallory Lee: And I don't think that this would be alive right now without the Share Your Genius team. And so we're just, like, super grateful for them. I can only imagine if I was trying to edit this myself, and it would be, like, 3:00 AM, you know, three nights a week that I would be trying to work on it. So they have been an amazing partner, and I give them a lot of credit for us being able to actually deliver this
[00:41:20] Shannon Curran: Another mom-led business.
[00:41:22] Shannon Curran: Shout out to Rachel. Um, yep. It's, uh, I- that's a g- great point, Mal. I think both you and I have always had, like, the gusto. It's like, d- but do we have, like, The ability to execute? No, uh, we don't. So that is, uh ... Also, uh, uh, I think I was saying this in a podcast earlier today, I'm, like, really bad at that part.
[00:41:43] Shannon Curran: Like, I am so bad at details, at, like, execu- like, I'm just terrible at the, that kind of stuff. My God, Penny is killing me. Penny is doing a full ... She really is, like, on a full, uh, roundabout of your office. I've never, she's never come in like this. This is
[00:41:57] Shannon Curran: very
[00:41:58] Mallory Lee: is her first appearance. Yeah.
[00:42:00] Mallory Lee: Hi. Hi,
[00:42:02] Mallory Lee: Penny.
[00:42:02] Shannon Curran: only other girl in your house.
[00:42:04] Tamara Hinckley: welcome. ...
[00:42:06] Shannon Curran: I know.
[00:42:06] Shannon Curran: Welcome.
[00:42:07] Mallory Lee: women Welcome.
[00:42:09] Shannon Curran: so I, I have one more question, Tamara. So as a f- like, product leader, are you building technology? Like, is this something you're doing as a part of your business? Or is this something that, uh ... Are you, like, totally abandoning that part of your background and, like, going full-on community coaching?
[00:42:27] Shannon Curran: Like, what's the plan?
[00:42:28] Tamara Hinckley: Oh, Shannon, you really know how to like get to the heart of it. yeah, that's a debate I've been having. Um, I think at first I was like, "I should build an app. I know how to do all that." I don't know. I am kind of following the customer and my energy. and I'm finding a lot of energy in the community, bringing people together.
[00:42:54] Tamara Hinckley: And like the coaching kind of found me. Like I, I'm not a certified coach and I would not have identified as a coach, but I think in what I've been doing, you would call it coaching. And so I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm a coach now." and I'm getting feedback that like, "Oh, this is so helpful. You're really good at this."
[00:43:09] Tamara Hinckley: So I'm like, "Okay." So like for me, that's been kind of an identity I've been thinking about is like how much am I product person, community builder, coach? Like what do I call myself? Um, entrepreneur. I don't know.
[00:43:22] Tamara Hinckley: I think I'm kind of okay being like we'll see. Like I'm looking for ways to help my audience and I think a lot of that may be to help them save them time and that's where technology can be really powerful. But what I'm most drawn to is kind of the inner work. Like I think there's so much amazing tech out there and the heart of the struggle is usually like this identity crisis or like talking to your partner about who's doing more at home.
[00:43:52] Tamara Hinckley: Like some of these things that tech can help eventually, but like you have to have the hard conversations first. So, I'm most excited about that, but I haven't ruled out kind of a bigger ecosystem in the long run. So we'll see.
[00:44:05] Mallory Lee: Cool. So this is our final segment that we do. It's called Our Save of the Week, uh, and it is something that is, that helped you be a better working parent this week. So it can be a person, it can be a product, it can be a process, and just something that saved you this week. So I don't know if you have one or if you want us to go first, but
[00:44:23] Shannon Curran: You have one?
[00:44:24] Tamara Hinckley: I do. I have many, but I'll, I'll start with one. Um, so this is, like, a great parenting hack. one of the hardest parts of the work week is the morning. I'm sure you can both relate. Like, just getting everyone ready and dressed and fed and out the door on time. And so I learned about this idea of tomorrow clothes, where your kids go to bed in their clothes for the next day, that they're gonna wear it tomorrow, instead of pajamas.
[00:44:51] Tamara Hinckley: And so you just... They get dressed the night before, after bath, and then in the morning that's what they wear. And there's no battle of, like, "What are we gonna wear?" And, "Get dressed," and, "Take off your PJs." Half the time they, like, spill breakfast all over and I just send them to preschool in that. But it, it has really, like, helped just eliminate a big step of the morning routine.
[00:45:13] Tamara Hinckley: And so instead we can, like, go play or do a puzzle for that time and connect instead of, like, the grunty, like, "Let's get out the door. Hurry, hurry." Um, so, so yeah, I, I learned about this I don't even know where. But, but yeah, we, like, don't buy pajamas anymore, don't own a... Like, don't wear them. And, um, and yeah, we just wear tomorrow clothes and it's great
[00:45:34] Shannon Curran: Wow, I love that
[00:45:37] Mallory Lee: Shannon, you need to test this
[00:45:40] Shannon Curran: I, well, for a while Sebastian's tomorrow clothes were his pajamas because he refused to take his pajama shirt off before he went to school. I finally would get the pants off, but, um, yeah, Willa's in the, where she still wears like seven outfits a day right now 'cause one-year-olds just get themselves so...
[00:45:56] Shannon Curran: What I send her to school in is never what she comes home in, like literally ever. Like, I have never. Uh, but yeah, I'll have to try this. That is, there's like moments that are like critical in the bedtime and morning time proce- So I do mornings alone, and 'cause my husband leaves for work really early, and the first thing I do is diaper gets changed.
[00:46:15] Shannon Curran: If that's not the first thing you do, it's never getting done. Like, all right, we'll change your diaper, and then the work pants go o- like the school pants come back on, and then the hands come up, and then you pick the shirt, and then we bring the shirt to the couch 'cause we watch a little bit of TV before we go to school.
[00:46:29] Shannon Curran: So it's like the process, if you miss any of the steps, it is
[00:46:34] Mallory Lee: Game over.
[00:46:35] Shannon Curran: Like you are, might as well be tomorrow. You
[00:46:37] Tamara Hinckley: Yep.
[00:46:38] Shannon Curran: we've lost. But this is smart. Uh, you've cut out all the need for the process. I love that.
[00:46:44] Mallory Lee: too. Uh, what about you, Shannon?
[00:46:47] Shannon Curran: I can't remember if I've given her, like, a real save of the week yet, so I figured, um, so my EA, Veronica, Vern, who also does all the scheduling for this podcast, um, she is Talk about, like, building your own village and, like, thinking about investing in your business and, like, things that you need. I w- none, uh, it's always the case that we don't ask for help til we're way too far down the line.
[00:47:13] Shannon Curran: Like, you're so buried that, like, the help is actually gonna make your life way harder for a consistent amount of time before it makes it easier. but I brought Veronica on probably, what, like, six months ago maybe? Around the same time as
[00:47:25] Shannon Curran: the podcast kind of, yeah. And, I wasn't sure, like, I just knew I needed help, but I, like, wasn't
[00:47:32] Shannon Curran: And I knew, like, Claude was not gonna cut it. Like, I just couldn't, like, I just knew I needed, like, someone to yell at me about the promises I was breaking to myself, like, all the time, right? The biggest one being my calendar. and I think that's something I have not seen AI really solve. I know Reclaim exists.
[00:47:46] Shannon Curran: I know, like, Claude can m- now, like, literally put things on your calendar and move things around, but they don't
[00:47:52] Shannon Curran: know what I need, like Veronica needs, like Veronica knows, you know? And even, like, I ignore our Asana, so she has to, like, remind me. You know? Like, things like that, like, I'm the worst. I'm the worst.
[00:48:03] Shannon Curran: Uh, and I've realized that, like, when I'm, as growing my business, I actually don't th- really wanna scale the, like, customer-facing part. Like, I want to be that whole part. And so I've now brought on people to run, like, the business of Shan. Terrifying, but, like, I need, I need help. And she has just been, like, a rock for me over this time of, like, my business growing a lot, bringing on more clients at a more complex, you know, way, and also wanting to make sure, like, she looked at my calendar this week at 10:00 AM.
[00:48:33] Shannon Curran: She was like, "What is bug hunt?" And I was like, "Oh, uh, we're gonna go do a bug hunt at daycare at 10:00, so I'm going to not take any calls from, like, from 10:00 to 12:00 just in case it goes late." I was like, "I wanna make sure I'm not racing home. Like, I don't wanna be worried." She's like, "No problem. Like, do you want me to make it green on your calendar so you know that it's, like, a different thing than the rest of your stuff?"
[00:48:53] Shannon Curran: Um, and I was like, "Thank you." Uh, so I just think there is, like, this, I am just, like, indebted to the support that she provides me and the fact that she feels like a little bit of a part of my family now, and, in the best way, right? Uh, and so yeah, major shout-out to Vern right now, who has told me that I have to take a week off in the summer, which I 100% would not have done. So I am actually gonna take my first week off since starting my business, so
[00:49:19] Tamara Hinckley: She sounds like, um, an accelerant for your business. Like bringing her on has definitely helped you move faster
[00:49:26] Shannon Curran: It is literally the best money I've ever spent. It's like, I think about how so many people are like having an EA that feels like ... It feel- it- icky at first, like someone working for me doing my like f- menial tasks. And so many people were like, "Can't you just have a Claude like, you know, chief of staff?"
[00:49:44] Shannon Curran: And I, she built my Claude chief of staff, like I have one of those too. But I really like, I find it so valuable for my personality personally to have a human being that's on my team with me and, yeah, it's a, it's been a major game-changer for me
[00:49:58] Mallory Lee: We love Vern. She helps me
[00:50:00] Mallory Lee: too. love Vern. She does. As Mallory's sugar mama, she d- I donate some of my, uh, my t- my EA time to the podcast.
[00:50:10] Mallory Lee: Yes. I am considering just, like, officially chipping in for Movember, but we'll see.
[00:50:17] Shannon Curran: Yeah.
[00:50:19] Mallory Lee: yeah. There's so many things, I think. There were, like, three different times this week where I told myself, "Oh, this is gonna be my save of the week." And now I'm not remembering them, which is so convenient. Um, but I was thinking about yesterday, and we've been working on this, like, backyard cabana project.
[00:50:38] Mallory Lee: And yesterday we got closer to some, like, finishing touches, and I put up these, like, outdoor curtains on the corner of it. And I just, like, sat there for a while and stared at them because it has been one of my, like, dreams is to have, like, twinkle lights and outdoor curtains that are just, you know, blowing in the breeze and, and to have that sort of, like, environment.
[00:51:04] Mallory Lee: Um, and we finally have it now. So I thought that that was just pretty cool. And I happened to find them on Amazon, and they happened to be the exact perfect length and color and sheerness and you don't have to have the rings to attach them. They just have, like, Velcro, and they're just perfect. So I was very excited about that yesterday, and it was just a lot of, like, work that's paid off too.
[00:51:32] Tamara Hinckley: Mm-hmm. Sounds like the universe kind of giving you a little kiss.
[00:51:36] Tamara Hinckley: Just like, you know, often it's like, "Ugh, the universe, you're so annoying," but I feel like it can actually be really helpful. And if you look, like it can ... Yeah, it often, like, gives us the gifts that we really need
[00:51:48] Mallory Lee: Yeah,
[00:51:49] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I was so happy for you that it felt like this like sanctuary you've wanted for so long and the house that you've built for so many other people. I feel like your office is kind of like that too, Mallory, where like you got to build this thing for yourself that s- doesn't happen a lot in the life of a mother.
[00:52:03] Shannon Curran: So, um, I'm very happy for your cabana as well. I'm excited to someday make it, make my way out to your cabana 'cause I do not have one.
[00:52:12] Mallory Lee: I hope that you will come. It'll be fun. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Tamara. This was great. Loved learning about everything you're up to. And, um, hopefully we can have you back sometime
[00:52:25] Tamara Hinckley: Amazing. Thank you both so much. It's so wonderful to meet you and just to have this conversation. And as I said, I, I think what you're doing is incredibly important, so I'm excited for, to watch you grow this, uh, to many more women
[00:52:39] Shannon Curran: I love
[00:52:40] Shannon Curran: it. Everyone follow Momentum Rising and follow Tamara on LinkedIn. She's a great follow. Um, so, and we will talk soon.
[00:52:49] Tamara Hinckley: Sounds great. Thank you. Bye
[00:52:51] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:52:54] Speaker: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:53:05] Shannon Curran: wild- we had really bad, the really bad air quality from the wildfires. We got it first. Boston like had it first before like everyone knew it was going on. And, um, so finally like everything kind of like cleared out and it started pouring, like absolutely like dumping from the sky. And my son was like, "I wanna go outside."
[00:53:26] Shannon Curran: And my mom was like worried to get in trouble 'cause the girls like, he was like, she was like, "I don't wanna get them wet." Like if they need to... I'm like, "Mom, don't, we were going to go in the pool today. Like don't they have a change of clothes?" And she was like, "Yeah, yeah, I guess they do." And I was like, "All right, Auntie's taking everyone outside.
[00:53:41] Shannon Curran: Jeff can get, like Dad can get mad at me." Like I'm his older sister, I tell him what to do. So they did like races up and down the hill in the pouring rain. It was so cute.
[00:53:51] Mallory Lee: Oh
[00:53:51] Tamara Hinckley: That's one of those things that they'll remember because it's so not okay normally
[00:53:58] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
[00:54:02] Shannon Curran: I was like, "Yeah, go outside and get soaking wet," uh, before... Yeah, it was really funny. Um, and they were, like, starting to, like, try not to win the race 'cause my son is so much slower than them. They were like, "We'll go really slow this time."
[00:54:13] Mallory Lee: Cute
[00:54:14] Shannon Curran: So cute