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Leaders of the Ledger from CPA Practice Advisor in partnership with Rightworks spotlights the people and ideas shaping the future of the accounting profession.
Each episode host Rob Brown interviews influential firm leaders, innovators and rising stars to uncover how they are tackling today’s biggest challenges whether it is client advisory services, AI and technology, talent strategy or firm growth through M&A.
Built on CPA Practice Advisor’s trusted recognition lists like the 40 Under 40 Influencers in Accounting and other collections of prominent professionals, this show goes beyond the headlines to share practical insights, personal stories and proven strategies from those moving the profession forward.
If you are a firm owner, leader or ambitious professional who wants to stay ahead of the curve Leaders of the Ledger is your inside track to the conversations and connections that matter most in accounting.
Subscribe now to hear from the voices redefining what it means to lead in the profession.
Speaker 2 (00:00.162)
Well, you've caught somebody's attention because you've been nominated as an influencer, John.
It's a little uncomfortable for me. It doesn't come naturally to me. It's not easy, you know, to shoot videos, post on LinkedIn, on a cadence. Like you have to remain committed to it. I think what's different about me is I'm not a CPA. So I'm one of those like non-accountants as an owner of an accounting firm. we're like just over a four million in revenue.
Tell us a little bit about John Malone.
Speaker 2 (00:22.67)
for retinning the top four John.
I read in the news just today that the unemployment rate for grads is over 6 % and the national employment rate in the US is 4%.
The talk in the industry is that like the, you know, it's hard to find people.
They know that being good enough is not being good enough. So they've got to intentionally start building a personal brand. What do you hope will stay behind your back? This is Leaders of the Ledger, the brand new podcast from CPA Practice Advisor. I'm Rob Brown, your host. And we're doing a series of interviews with some very influential people in the world of accounting and shining a light on what makes them so good or what they enjoy so much about what they're doing or what perhaps why they are influential or leaders of the ledger. I'm thrilled to have with me today, John Malone. Good day, sir.
I think that's.
Speaker 1 (01:08.408)
Good day, Rob. Thank you for having me on. Love the approach, what you're doing. And I'm obviously flattered by the introduction. Hopefully I can provide value to whoever's listening in the audience.
Well, you've caught somebody's attention because you've been nominated as an influencer, John. I don't know how intentional you are with your personal brand. You don't seek out fame and glory, do you?
I certainly don't. It's something that I think it becomes, it's a little uncomfortable for me. I think the frame in which we do it is to really just build our company, build our brand, share what we're doing for our clients, how we're helping our clients. So it really comes from a place of that. It's certainly not something that I, at a personal level, it's more about what we're doing as a company and getting our messaging out there and how we can help people.
Well, tell us a little bit about John Malone, the man.
Yeah, you know, not pretty ordinary. So I live up in the Boston area. I think what's different about me is I'm not a CPA. Right. So I am I'm an attorney. That's my technical background. So I'm one of those like non accountants that that is an owner of an accounting firm. So I think that's probably an interesting angle about me.
Speaker 2 (02:19.32)
We still brand you as the leader of the ledger then? I guess we could.
Yeah, I think so. I think so, right? I don't know what the qualifications are, but...
brand new show so they're pretty loose. We're defining them as we go along John but listen you're in the accounting world you know it well and you're moving and shaking and shining the light so you went a CPA. Take us back to John Malone age 16. What was life looking like for you then as you thought about career and beyond school and university?
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I grew up right outside Boston, you super sports focused, right? Sports were my life, specifically football. So played football in college, went to a business school around here called Bentley and played football. It's a division two football school. So played there and had some success there, like academically and athletically. And then, you know,
really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to do something that was like a bit different. And so I went to law school, thought it was a good challenge, knew that like the education was never gonna fail me. It was gonna be a good solid education. It worked while I was in law school. So I went to law school at night. I worked for a firm during the day to kind of pay my way through it. And then when I got out, I did a lot of litigation work, right? I was in the courtroom. I did that for about seven or so years.
Speaker 1 (03:43.278)
And then just, you know, it was just something that it didn't really stick with me. It wasn't it wasn't something that I knew that I wanted to do long term. So I started to do more like business corporate related legal work. And then I kind of started working more with my current business partner, Greg O'Brien, who's also 40 under 40. He's a CPA and he had been doing a lot more tax strategy and tax planning for clients. So we started to kind of to work on clients together.
in the back story between Greg and I is that we went to college together, we played football together at Bentley. So we had known each other for 15 years. So we started working on clients together and then we just said, you know, this just makes sense to come together and really start to build around kind of the vision that we've had for, you know, how we should serve as clients, how to be value add, how to be advisors. And that's really kind of the foundation that we've been building upon.
you threatening the top four John tell us a little bit about your vision for this outfit
Yeah, think it's, don't know. I don't know about that, but I mean, I think we want it. We want to continue to grow. Like we've been growing at a, at a, at a good clip, you know,
Give us a flavor of the size you are now, John.
Speaker 1 (04:53.838)
Yeah, so we're like just over a 4 million in revenue and we have about 35 people head count wise. So that's a, you know, around like 20 full time employees domestically and then, you know, around 15 ish offshore contractors or part time people. So, and I'd say we've probably grown like top line between 20 and 30 % year over year. It's
you know, it's gonna, we understand that it's going to kind of like taper off as we get bigger and it gets harder. And we've, you know, we're at that stage, Rob, where it's, it's, you know, it's, it's tricky, right? You're kind of building, you're building the plane as you go, right? As it's taken off and as it's going. So we've encountered a lot of challenges, but we kind of have, you know, I'm proud that we've remained true to our, you know, our vision and.
It's just changed as you grow and you're scaling and you're bringing on new people, the focus of course has to change, right?
Well, you're sailing the ship there many of the influences I've spoken to they are in that Situation where they're entrepreneurial they've started their own thing, but others are employed. They're working for a firm They're working for the man however you want to say that and they're quite happy with that security That finance that paycheck everything else accountants
And even legal types for that matter are not known for their entrepreneurial thinking and going it on their own because you're in the business of risk management. You don't take risks. You don't try things like that. So it's unusual.
Speaker 1 (06:30.414)
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Right. And I don't think there's like a right or wrong approach. Right. I mean, it's just, it's, kind of who you are. think for me, you know, my, my mindset has been skews a little bit more to the entrepreneurial side. And I think, you know, kind of even going through college and you're, kind of molded to be, you know, more of an employee mindset type, uh, type person, which is, which I think is, is really good. Um, but for me, it just,
it was always a bit different. I like to build, I think my core passion is to build things, And specifically build this company and be able to build systems and solutions for our clients and for our people that we've hired that are kind of in our stewardship. So those are the things that motivate me most.
I hear you because I was a former high school math teacher. did eight years. did four in the UK and four in Hong Kong at an international school and knew that I wanted something else. But getting out of an institution like that or a rigid role like that, because when you go into teaching, you pretty much plan for 40 years. You know what you're doing, you know the environments you're going to be working in. And when you've got any kind of qualification, you tend to be badged like that. So getting out is hard. What would you say is the biggest...
difference between being employed and effectively being self-employed?
think there's a lot of differences, right? think if you're kind of sailing the ship, you have to be okay with operating in ambiguity and a little bit of chaos at times.
Speaker 2 (08:05.41)
That doesn't sit well with accounting and legal types though, does it? Yeah.
So, know, it's not like you go into your day, like you can plan out your day as much as you want to want to. But the train might come and you're going to have to pivot and you have to be able to context switch. You know, you might be in marketing, shooting social media videos. You might be doing a proposal call for a client. You might have to dive into the technical weeds. You might have to put out a client fire. You know, you might have to reconcile something internally for payroll. So you got to, you got to kind of be able to do.
everything at a decent pace and at a decent level. And that's stressful. Like it's hard, it's hard to do all those things. And, and you got to be a good delegator, right? That's not an easy thing. Like, you know, that's something that I've learned. It's hard to delegate, you know, it's not, it's, it's hard to give clear direction, know when to let go and when to jump in. So those, those skillsets are certainly things they don't really teach you how to delegate in school, right? They don't teach you how to
move from one thing to another, right? They don't teach you how to do these things. And those are things you gotta kind of figure out on your own.
I'm smiling because there's a lot they don't teach you at school that they should like. They don't teach you much. How to balance a budget and how to read a credit card statement and financial literacy and how to give somebody bad news and all these things. But don't let's get started on the whole education scheme. Crystal ball for a moment, John. I read in the news just today that the unemployment rate for grads is over 6%.
Speaker 2 (09:41.164)
and the national employment rate in the US is 4%. So for the first time, grads are coming out of university with huge qualifications and they're not able to find work. Do you think we might see more and more people hanging out their own shingle with an accounting, a legal qualification and saying, hey, well, if I can't work for somebody, I might as well start something myself.
Yeah, think, I mean, I think if, if, those numbers, like those, by those numbers, you would think that's kind of a natural progression, right? I think, that, that is the beauty of having, you know, a CPA or your law degree or, you know, some, some professional designation, you know, you have, you have a, once you have that, it's like a lower bar at entry to kind of start your own, start your own business. so I, I would, I would anticipate that people would do that. it's interesting too, because from an employer perspective,
You know, it's hard to find good qualified people, right? I think, I think that's like our main struggle is like when we're going out to hire, you know, that process and finding people, it's a grind for us. so it's kind of interesting to hear that. And maybe the people that we're looking for aren't the people that are, you know, necessarily like graduate degree, individuals, but it's, you know, the, talk in the industry is that like, you know, it's, hard to find people.
It's hard to find people. The supply is low. So it's just kind of interesting to hear that.
We've heard a lot about the talent pipeline and I've spoken about it a lot across my podcasts. What happened with this research, the backstory was that the entry level jobs where you might come into after graduating, they've been taken up by AI. So we can't have a conversation about running a successful business without talking about the technology and the AI. Just give us your take on that.
Speaker 1 (11:25.878)
Yeah, I think my overall take is it's just going to make us so much better and efficient, you know, as a firm.
How have you been embracing it, John? What kind of things have you been doing with it?
So like use cases, I think now like we've in our last quarter as a leadership team, you know, we've put together a complete AI plan for our company with a roadmap of how we're going to implement it like then a scalable way across the company.
I bet you AI to do that as well, didn't you, to plan it?
we did. Of course we did. Of course we did, Rob. So I think simple use cases are, you could standardize the tone and response, responsiveness to your clients. I think when you have more people, we want to make sure that we are, our customer service is on point. Our responses are on point there. And you can do that through AI, by putting in information, putting in your...
Speaker 1 (12:20.958)
a preferred response and then having it run through a prompt that will kind of generate, Hey, maybe put the, put the response in a, in in the best light possible and how we want to communicate our voice to our clients. That's one use case. Of course, there's just like technical reviews at certain levels. And then I think the biggest thing for us is like having all of our client data, in kind of one place in one brain where we can easily query.
you know, questions about clients. People can have information at their fingertips, make things a lot faster. And there's those are, I think those are probably, you know, first steps. And then there's of course, like a lot deeper cuts as we go.
One of the other shows I run is called the Accounting Influencers podcast. And I speak there to professionals at all levels in the accounting world predominantly to talk about how to be more influential, authoritative, personally branded, more vocal, more visible in their roles so that they can drive change, so that they can make things happen, so that they could almost have their career on their terms. Because being technically good, he's not good enough these days. There are so many technically good people out
You've built a personal brand, haven't you? Has it been accidental? Has it been intentional? Because you want, you've needed to be more well known. You're the ambassador of your brand. You want to attract clients. You want to be a repository for talent where people come looking for you. So you kind of thought to be a secret.
Yeah, it's definitely been intentional. Yeah, Rob. I think I said like at the outset like it doesn't it doesn't come naturally to me
Speaker 2 (13:51.566)
It's necessary but not natural, right?
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's been, it's been something that's had to be drilled into my head and it's a necessary thing. And it's just the way it's the, it's the world now. It's and it's easy. It's, it's, it's easy to get the distribution of your message. Obviously with all social media platforms that we have, you can just, you could literally shoot a video on your phone and upload it. Right. And it goes out and, and you know, it's, it's going to reach so many more people.
then it's gonna reach the amount of people that you would have if you spoke in front of hundreds of people in person, right? So it has that level of impact. So that kind of showed me, know, the kind of the compounding components of it, but it has been intentional. It's not easy, you know, to shoot videos or to, you know, to post on LinkedIn, you know, on a cadence. Like you have to remain committed to it. You know, my business partner, Greg O'Brien,
is, you know, he's a real main driver in motivating and pushing, you know, that particular initiative. And it's been like you noted, not just from a lead, you know, generation perspective, but building authority and then, you know, for talent, for people, for people to work for us, right? We want to make sure that it's equally important there as well.
You talk about putting your messages out there. What does John Malone have to say to the world when you put out full leadership or content or make a video? What message are you trying to get across?
Speaker 1 (15:23.086)
I think the biggest thing, the under, you know, we do a lot of our messaging is on, you know, technical, trying to take a complex subject and make it simpler. I think it's business owners, people that, people that want to grow their business, that want to want to better and optimize their, their financial lives and, and leverage the tax code and, and leverage, you know, some of the systems that we put in place to make.
the audience for that, John.
Speaker 1 (15:51.574)
make those things better. And I think like my message through that underlying is just that is to, I think that the, if we dumbed down everything, it's, you know, I and, you know, anomaly, as a company, we want to make a complex financial life simpler and better for people.
If you think about what's happening in the world right now, you not just comment on the stuff that you're doing? Do you comment on the news? Do you comment on tax regulations? Do you comment on the economy? How wide does that go?
It goes pretty wide. you know, there's different, think there's varying thoughts on that. I mean, of course there's like the current event stuff is going to get more eyeballs. So like we, we will mix in some of the, that type of stuff. Like, you know, if you say, if you say Donald Trump on a short form video, you're just going to get more views, right? It's, gonna, so there's that element, right? That we, we, and it's fun. The current event stuff is a little bit more fun, right? You talk about, you know, the, the NFL or, you know, the, sports or.
just something that is people like to hear about. It's easy. And then we'll do like, obviously now with the new tax bill that just got passed in the United States, there's a lot more, hey, taking something that's a bit more technical, people wanna hear about it and just making it a little bit more digestible for people in a short form way and long form. So it really runs the gamber, Rob. I I think we're even more open to going like expanding the...
the subject matter even kind of outside more because it will kind of expand our reach and it gets some more brand recognition.
Speaker 2 (17:31.534)
When you talk about businesses that want to grow as an audience, there's millions of them all over the world. So being on social online is all very well, but if I offered you a million followers, you wouldn't necessarily take them because you couldn't help them all or they might be a wrong fit for you. So you've got to be intentional with your avatar, maybe geographically, earnings, decision-making, but all these kinds of things. Do you target it or do you just put things out there and hope that the right people will see it?
I think there's a certain component of us like targeting to, you know, our target demographic, psychographic, you know, the people that we want, the businesses that we want. There's definitely a targeting approach. And then there's an approach of just like, hey, let's get our, let's let our brand be known and get as many people to know us and what we do in our messaging because that doesn't hurt either. So it's kind of a multifaceted approach.
Is it easier because it's your firm, John? Just thinking of when you work for a firm, there are constraints, there's a more corporate brand you've got to align to. You're not free to say everything you want to say, perhaps. You've got to be under the corporate banner, if you like, and be careful what you say.
Yeah, I never really thought of it that way. mean, I think it's probably it is. I would assume that it is right. It's easier. Right. Because it's like, I guess, you know, myself and Greg have kind of, you know, have come together with our leadership team to create our vision, to create, you know, our company voice. And so it's easier for me to really kind of get behind it because I've been, you know, I'm the I'm the creator of it.
So I think so, yes, but I also think that the people that we've hired and the people that are on our team are aligned with it. They're the types of people that are energized by our vision. And I think that we always encourage them to get out there and to put themselves, to kind of help build their own platform. And we want to be supportive of that. So I think that there's that element of it too.
Speaker 2 (19:37.92)
It sounds like when you were employed, and Greg, you weren't putting stuff out there. You were focusing, I guess, on climbing up the ladder and serving your clients and being technically good. But once you had that freedom, you were doing your own thing. You had to be out there, but you're more empowered to be out there.
Exactly. Yeah, I definitely was not doing it. Like it's really just been, you know, the power, like seeing the power of content over like the last couple of years, like it's really just been the last couple of years where there's been a more intentional effort towards it. Right. And when I was more, more of an employee, I didn't really understand it. Right. It wasn't a priority for me, I think employee, employer, whatever your capacity is, there is a power.
of kind of building that authority, building that brand. I think there's a lot of opportunity, right? I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the technological advances. I'm excited about the niche that we're in, like working with small businesses. There's a lot of value-add opportunities. I'm excited about non-accountants and even private equity getting into the space. I think these are all things that...
What kind of ship do you feel the accounting profession is in right?
Speaker 1 (20:47.498)
show the value of the industry and that I think they're all things that just need to be embraced so that we can continue to be innovative and can continue to service our clients the best. So I think for me, that was one of the biggest things of getting involved is I just bullish on the industry and the opportunity.
Well, with opportunity comes threat. What potentially scares you about what's coming up over the next few years?
course.
Speaker 1 (21:14.718)
I think there's I'd be lying if I didn't think that some level of like the know the technological advances were were threatening the downward pressure on pricing you know that we're going to see.
certainly downward pressure on compliance.
Of course that too. And I think there's how do we compete with that, but how do we leverage it? How do we become more advisors than just kind of doing the blocking and tackling work? How do we just maintain high levels of customer service so we can leverage these tools, become more efficient, but still be the center of our client's financial universe? And how can we be value add? How can we continue to add value to our clients?
each and every day, you know, think, I think there's, it's gonna change. There's no doubt about it. Like the model is gonna change and we just wanna be at the cutting edge of that.
more questions John this is excellent just dipping our toes into your world I'm gonna ask you to finish in a moment with some advice for professionals employed or self-employed that want to be more well known for what they do so keep that in mind but a crystal ball again what surefire things definitely gonna happen in the next few years
Speaker 1 (22:28.846)
I think that AI is going to just become more more entrenched in our industry. I think that's sure fire, right? I think you're going to see a lot of tools kind of pop up and the ones that are well thought out, are well researched, are built well, are going to rise to the top and there's going to be some ones that fall off. And I think the firms that embrace it and integrate with them, leverage AI to build their own tools.
I think those are the ones that are gonna do the best and that are going to continue to be successful. And I think the other thing is, like I said, there's gonna be more of a shift towards advisory work and leveraging these tools for the blocking and tackling, so to speak. Those things, I think, are definitely going to happen. And I think we should be excited about it. I think that there's a lot of opportunity in that.
blocking and tackling. We are an international show but yes that will you can tell you an American footballer.
Yeah, yeah, what is what would be the what would be the the actual football? don't know
I don't know. You don't even call it football. You call it soccer. we get the inference. So finally then, John, what advice would you give to people that perhaps recognize they want to be more vocal, they want to be more visible, they want more authority, they know that being good enough is not being good enough. So they've got to intentionally start building a personal brand. What would you say to them?
Speaker 1 (23:54.402)
Yeah, I would just say just start, you know, just dive in all the people that, you know, listen to your, your show, the people that are in these industries. Like, you know, you have, you have the skillset you have, you have like the technical acumen to, you know, provide value to people. I think in our industry, it's like, it's people always, I'm amazed at the impact of small advice or just a small kind of spin on a current event.
is that valuable to people. So I don't think it takes a lot. I think it's reps, it's getting to maintain a cadence to continue to do it. And I think you'll look back in a year and you'll be like, wow, the reach that I've had is significant. It's just going to snowball over and over. And I'm certainly not coming from a place like I've arrived. I think it's...
It's still something that I want to put more effort into and be more intentional about and from the standpoint of building the company's brand. But I would say it's just, hey, you got to take a step out of your comfort zone to do it. And I think it will pay off. There's no real downsides to it.
do you hope people say behind your back, gentlemen?
About me. I think you know that I'm you know my intentions are serve others build a company that has that people want to work for that people like to work for that energizes people and that is You know open and honest and in serving their clients, right? I think I think that's what we want to do. That's innovative That's building new things kind of like crossing barriers and boundaries and is a fun. It's just a fun place to make you believe
Speaker 2 (25:34.808)
listening to or watching Leaders of the Ledger podcast on behalf of CPA Practice Advisor, we are interviewing some of most influential people around that are really passionate about the accounting game and serving their clients. It's been a privilege to speak to John Mullen today. Thank you so much for sharing your passion and your insights.
appreciate it, Rob. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on.