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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 68 (Mark Johnson)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of "The Biggest Table." I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today, I'm joined by Mark Johnson.
Originally from Milwaukee, Mark earned a PhD in history from the University of Alabama. Previously, he earned an MA from the University of Maryland and a BA from Purdue University. He currently teaches at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga and is the author of "An Irresistible History of Alabama Barbecue: From Wood Pit to White Sauce," and "Rough Tactics: Black Performance in Political Spectacle, 1877 to 1932." His most recent book is "American Bacon: The History of a Food Phenomenon." He resides in Knoxville, Tennessee with his wife, Kate, and two cats, Perry and Remy.
So thanks for joining me today, Mark. Uh, really enjoyed your book on bacon and excited to, uh, to talk about bacon.
Mark Johnson: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thanks for reaching out.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:01:00] Uh, when I saw your book, and I forget how our paths crossed, probably, you know, I had Adrian Miller, you know, and so I think, you know, algorithms, you know-
Mark Johnson: Indeed ...
Andrew Camp: indeed forced, you know, luckily connected us. But when I saw that you were writing about bacon, I was like, "Okay," like this is... I, I don't know many people who write about bacon, but this is clearly a book I wanna read and learn.
Um, and so, so yeah. Thanks for, uh, yeah, the opportunity to connect.
Mark Johnson: Yeah. I'm excited.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so as you're a historian, um, and so what... You've written two books now on food, and so as a historian, what piqued your interest in food, and what led you to, to wanna explore, uh, like the history of food and the story that food might tell us?
Mark Johnson: Yeah, so when I was a grad student, I was, um, working on a project that eventually became the book on Alabama barbecue. Uh, [00:02:00] during my time there, uh, the State Department of Tourism wanted to do a year of Alabama barbecue campaign, um, create the, uh, barbecue trail, and create a bunch of, um, promotional materials for, uh, tourism.
But to do that, they needed to know what that meant. What does Alabama barbecue even mean? Um, it's different really in the state, city to city. So they wanted the stories, they wanted the history behind it, um, and that, uh, project went to, um, a UA professor and I, um, and then I just kept going. I really liked the way that I could tell sometimes really difficult stories about the past, um, but through food, sort of like a little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down sort of way, I guess.
[00:03:00] Um, and just the way that, uh, food got tied up into everything. Um, so yeah, I really enjoyed it as like a narrative device and communication, um, a method of communication, uh, telling the, uh, stories I was already trying to tell people about, uh, immigration and migration or civil rights or, um, globalization or industrialization and the rise and fall of liberalism and on and on and on.
Um, then, uh, the second book actually isn't about food so much. Um, it's the dissertation turned academic monograph book. Um, but I turned my attention to bacon, uh, based on that first book. Um, while I was interviewing a pit master in Alabama, he said that our obsession with [00:04:00] bacon had gotten so out of hand that butchers were changing the size and shape of pork bellies, and that meant changing the size and shape of spare ribs, um, so that they could count more of the carcass, uh, as belly, which they could get for really high prices.
Um, so I got to thinking about that, um, change over time and how it wasn't that long ago that we had Just the fear of fat and, uh, dietary fat, things like, uh, the American Heart Association seal of approval showing up on Lucky Charms. Um, right? And that we had the conventional wisdom told us that dietary fat made us fat, um, and that entailed a whole host of other, uh, chronic illnesses.
So I think that's where... Yeah, it was [00:05:00] during the first book that I got this idea for this bacon book, and at the time I didn't know what that meant or what it would look like. Um, but A thread that runs through all three of them is this kind of way that people pretend to be other people.
Andrew Camp: Huh.
Mark Johnson: Uh, and so in the barbecue book, it was, uh, the anti-barbecue campaign, the way that politicians were using barbecue to communicate their humility, their being of the people and not better than the people, uh, and a phenomenon that we still do today, right?
You can't go on the pr- you can't go on the electoral primaries without, uh, stopping into the barbecue joint or the ice cream shop or, uh, you know, doing the so-called everyday person thing. Um, the second book [00:06:00] based on the dissertation was about, like, faithful slave myth and Black Confederate mythology, um, and how you use performance, um, to access otherwise unavailable spaces.
Um, and that's where the third book really took off when I saw in the food writing about bacon, uh, the way that people communicated ideas about, uh, cowboys and Westerners and mountain men and, uh, times and places where supposedly men were men and women were women and everything was so much simpler. Um, and so that's the thread I ended up picking up on and carrying through.
Mm-hmm. '
Andrew Camp: Cause you say in your introduction that in the 21st century, bacon eaters have performed something akin to a minstrel performance when they eat bacon, talk about bacon, and write about bacon. Um, you know, and I think you were hinting at that, but can you... It was a phrase that stood out for me in your book 'cause I was like, "Okay," like, [00:07:00] "there's something here," and, you know, I'm-- we're not super familiar with minstrel performances anymore, you know?
And so what-- can you unpack that and, like, 'cause I think you've hinted at it, but I think it was, it's an important thread, I think, that runs through your bacon, the bacon book, um, for, for the listeners.
Mark Johnson: Yeah, I'd be glad to. So, um, yeah, I mean, as a, you know, emerging scholar and grad student, um, you know, that's really the phenomenon that I was interested in, minstrelsy, Blackface minstrelsy, um, and a similar phenomenon.
Yeah, like the, like, uh, Black musicians, for example, uh, playing roles of faithful slaves or Black Confederates, um, to gain access to opportunity, uh, even putting on their own performance, minstrel performances. Uh, basically, they argued or, [00:08:00] uh, reasoned, I should say, um, that if people were going to make money off of some version of Black culture, that they might as well be the ones making that money.
Um, and so that's really kind of the dynamic at the heart of the second book in my scholarly training is What compels people to do these sorts of things? What compels people to, uh, on one hand dress up like the people that they claim and that they, uh, by all accounts despise or detest? Uh, what compels someone to dress up like a marginalized person, in that case, right?
Um, a caricature of an enslaved person or a, you know, a Black Southerner. Uh, yeah, so what compels you on that, uh, side, um, to so seemingly lower yourself or humble yourself? Um, and then on the other side, [00:09:00] in that book in particular, what compelled people to embrace, you know, hateful, negative stereotypes, uh, you know, and play those roles?
Um, I mean, the most famous and probably the easiest one maybe for the audience to understand is, uh, Hattie McDaniel, right, playing Mammy in "Gone With the Wind," um, you know, embracing that sort of stereotype of Mammy. Uh, I mean, she's talked about that, right? Like, "I played Mammy, so I didn't have to be a mammy."
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Mark Johnson: Right? "I didn't have to actually work in any white women's kitchens or, uh, raise any white women's babies." Um, so yeah, that's kind of the thing I'm interested in is, uh, the cultural phenomenon in which we kinda transcend or transgress racial or class boundaries. So in the Bacon book, um, there's one story in particular that really kind of unlocked this for me, [00:10:00] um, and, uh- It's a New York Times cartoon and an associated column.
It's called "In Praise of Bacon." It's by George T. Holly from 1983, and the food writing is, like, his own version of, like, a minstrel performance, but instead of, right, an enslaved Black person, um, he's impersonating the Georgia mountain man. And, uh, through it you get this sense of what scholars, um, and scholar Eric Lott in particular called, like, this desire-hate or hate-envy dialectic.
Um, he's clearly mocking this Georgia mountain man, the raw-boned mountain man that shoots the hog in self-defense and has a coonhound. And right, so on the surface of this, it's very mocking, uh, of this person that's so much [00:11:00] different than the author, George Holly, in his New York apartment writing for The New York Times.
Um, but you do see the elements of this food writing that make this character that's so long been despised, uh, appealing for someone like Holly. Uh, this is a person that works with his hands, still defends himself and his territory, uh, still has kind of a martial spirit, right? Uh, um, to conquer the bacon, Holly has to actually marshal his own military past serving in the Marines to, like, get out his pocketknife and break the bacon rind with his bare hands.
Um, and yeah, so I think, uh, you know, this story really unraveled something about, like, modernity and civilization, right? Amid an otherwise urban, standard, uniform, routine, um, [00:12:00] comfortable life, uh, this provides a moment of play, uh, where he can escape to a different time and place that he doesn't really want to go to.
Andrew Camp: No.
Mark Johnson: No one wants to actually live like this Georgia mountain man as described in the article. But, uh, temporarily, uh, you can see the appeal of it.
Andrew Camp: Because you mentioned that, you know, bacon for many of us, uh, you know, in the 21st century carries this nostalgia. Like, we think of lazy Saturday mornings. Um, you know, you mentioned even that in COVID bacon sales spiked.
Uh, you know, we were all staying at home and looking for something familiar, um, you know, reconnecting with our families. There's a nostalgia attached to this idea of bacon and, um, you know, even just the odor, the smell of bacon frying in a home. Like, there, there's something that it connotes to us, but bacon's not as simple as that nostalgia.
Like, you even [00:13:00] mentioned that for most of US history, bacon was a mundane staple, partly objectional and even dangerous. Um, you know, and so like what-- You know, there's a lot of history to unpack, right? And we don't have time to go into all the details, but like, you know, it started with the colonial people bringing pigs over and, you know, cured pork with them as a means to continue to get meat.
Um, but like what... But even back then, Shakespeare uses bacon as a insult. So yeah, like what's... There, there's multiple stories happening throughout, you know? And so what-- In early American, like what role did bacon play?
Mark Johnson: Yeah. So, um, in early America, um, bacon has kind of... What role did it play? Well, for everyone in an age before refrigeration, uh, bacon's role is, uh, yeah, a mon-mundane staple.
Mm-hmm. Uh, something that [00:14:00] you, you know, cut off a hunk, you know, every day and threw it in the pot of greens or in the stew or porridges or whatever you had going for the day to add much needed fat to your diet, absolutely. Uh, you know, salt, uh, you know, maybe some smoky flavor, um, you know, make, uh, improve the taste of vegetables or an otherwise humble, meager meal.
And that's the role it had played for centuries prior, uh, and the role it continued to play, um, in the diets of, uh, you know, most Europeans. Um, at this time, bacon was a really broad term referring to most of the pork eaten by most of the people, uh, that had some combination of salting, curing, and/or smoking.
Um, and it could refer to various parts of the pig too. At this time, it did not necessarily mean, you know, like the belly or loin like it does today. [00:15:00] Bacon just meant, yeah, any pork. In fact, it's actually easier to, uh, say what it's not. So bacon's not fresh meat.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Johnson: It's not ham, because ham is prized, and it's not sausage.
Um, but otherwise, they're pretty much calling anything else, um, uh, bacon, uh, when they use that term. So yeah, when the English, um, start their colonial, um, adventure into North America, um, bacon's just part of your existence like that. Uh, but at the time, there was emerging, um, an idea that bacon was a little bit backward or, um, especially suitable for laboring people.
Uh, they have a few things going on. Um, and I should mention again, everyone's still using it. It's just way too useful in the age before refrigeration [00:16:00] that, uh, really no one can escape bacon and using it, uh, as a frying agent or to flavor vegetables or leaner meat. Um, but you're able to distinguish yourself based on the variety in your diet and the amount of fresh meat or other so-called more respectable meat that you can get.
Um, so yeah, it's kind of shades of gray at this time. So for the English, respectable meat meant beef and mutton, um, in, uh, late 1500s and 1600s. Uh, they really came to prize these animals because they benefit from, uh, the very nice, orderly, fenced-in farm, uh, that becomes a prize of like becomes the pride of, uh, like English civilization and a symbol of English, uh, civility and respectability to have [00:17:00] these, uh, quaint fenced-in farms.
Uh, they're also transitioning toward, um, the raising of sheep for their emerging textile industries. Um, these are two animals, cows and sheep, that also famously benefit from lots of husbandry or that idea that they need a lot of care and attention. And again, uh, the English, uh, use that as a symbol of kinda like their dominance over not only the land fenced in orderly.
Uh, right, uh, very Puritan idea to like tame the wil- wilderness- Right ... uh, and bring it under your control and civilize it. Uh, but these are animals that also benefit from that same kind of dominance and command. Um, and so they become prized, and therefore their meat becomes prized, beef and mutton. The pig doesn't fit into this worldview.
It takes care of itself. It feeds itself. Um, and that's what makes it so useful and had [00:18:00] made it so useful for millennia, was the way it could defend itself against animals, eat an omnivorous diet, take care of itself, roaming the wilderness, um, eating, you know, acorns and, uh, digging up grubs and stuff like that.
Um, but in this English mindset, uh, the pig just seems like a remnant of its own uncivilized past.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Mark Johnson: Um, and so They have another thing going on. The English are urbanizing quickly, um, because these cows and these sheep don't need as many people, um, and peasants are looking for work in the city. Uh, and cities are places paradoxically where, um, even at that time as of now, uh, that people can get more variety in their diet.
Um, right? In the cities we've got grocery stores today. Uh, back then, uh, they had, uh, the marketplaces that were [00:19:00] popping up all over England's biggest cities. Um, and that meant more variety, uh, more availability of fresh meat. Um, and so these urban people who could get their hands on some variety, uh, distinguished themselves as such and started to refer to, um, country people and laboring people, people who worked with their bodies in particular, um, as bacon eaters or chawbacons.
Uh, people that seemed to, uh, rely exclusively on bacon to sustain themselves through that kind of a day of work.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And then, um, the... But then as the colonial expansion happened in America and westward, bacon became sort of a pride thing of like, "Hey, we're, we're not like these, you know, restrained Europeans," or, um, you know, it became sort of a, it testified to an independent and freedom-loving spirit [00:20:00] over and against what the English and Europe represented at the time, which is fascinating.
That's what you've hinted at, that this is the love of bacon now harkens back to this freedom and independent loving spirit.
Mark Johnson: Yeah, the self-sufficient kind of hardworking laboring person, for sure. Okay. Yeah, so after, on the American Revolution, uh, you know, Americans are confronting, uh, something like bacon, and they're, it k- they kind of divide into two camps about it.
Um, they've inherited, uh, they've brought with them this cultural baggage that says that bacon's backward, bacon's for laboring people, um, and that respectable societies, um, and civiliza- civilization, um, has moved on to beef and mutton as the indicators of taste and class. Um, and some people certainly, um, carry that baggage with them, um, and look around them and see, [00:21:00] uh, the nation's country people, and especially its Southern people, especially Southern enslaved people as, uh, bacon eaters, as backward, as lacking taste and respectability.
Um, but yeah, as you hinted at, um, and in the book it's truly just a hint 'cause it's not a tover- total overhaul, not quite yet. Um, but there are hints of this reclaiming bacon as a virtuous food for hardworking, laboring people Right. In this context, many Americans look at Europe as too urban, too decadent, too over-civilized, is the word that they would use.
Uh, an idea that they've inherited from their, um, kind of Puritan forebears, that history is not linear, it's actually cycl- cyclical, in that civilizations become over-civilized. They become soft, greedy, corrupt, and then, uh, the devil gets them and they fall. Um, [00:22:00] so, uh, in this context, yeah, bacon does have a little bit of a role in the American imagination as, um, a symbol of humility and virtue.
Um, I think the best story, uh, from that specific section is, uh, debates over... Yeah, so bacon gets caught up in the debates over the Bank of the United States. Um, this is like my six degrees of Kevin Bacon moment. Um, but yeah. So this newspaper, this opposition newspaper to Hamilton and the Federalists, um, says something to the effect of that the Bank of the United States will certainly make the United States wealthy.
Absolutely. Um, uh, it, you know, it's modeled after the way, like, the British Treasury would work. Um, yeah, so they admit that, like, Hamilton's plan would make the United States wealthy, but they actually compare Hamilton to King Midas and the golden [00:23:00] touch. Uh, like, at what cost though, right? He can make us wealthy with this plan, um, but at what cost?
What might we lose? Um, and for them, it's just not worth it. Um, he actually... They implore Hamilton to leave us to our cabbage and bacon, right? A humble meal for a humble people. Uh, no frills, right? Not overwrought or over-sophisticated. Uh, yeah, so Americans I mean, they do embrace their provincialism in comparison to Europe, uh, their rustic virtue, their, uh, hardworking laboring spirits, um, their lack of fashion, right?
They wear as sort of a badge of honor, and that's where, right, reclaiming that song "Yankee Doodle" comes into play, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Johnson: Meant as mocking them for their provincialism, their country bumpkin-ness. Um, but yeah, South Americans, they do... They're starting to reclaim [00:24:00] that kind of character, that kind of spirit, and in some of those debates, some of those ideas come out through, um, expressions about bacon as a perfectly suitable, perfectly adequate meal for someone like that.
Andrew Camp: Right. It's, uh, bacon's suitable for the hardworking, you know, blue co- blue collar person. Mm-hmm. But, you know, there comes a moment that you point out in the book where, like, the northern population, you know, white collar, you know, maybe not white collar yet, but, like, they're moving away from bacon and, you know, embracing more beef, um, a beef diet, and begin to sort of look down on the South as, you know, stuck in the past, not progressing as they should, and this carries even through the Civil War.
Um, you know, and so, like, it, it seems through the book that, like, as America progresses and they experienced huge economic boom, you know, post-World War or [00:25:00] post-Civil War and the Industrial Revolution- Yeah ... post-World War II, um, and all the new technology coming, that bacon takes a back seat. That, you know, bacon begins to be looked down upon as something uncivilized, uncouth, unsafe, and s- like- Am I picking up the wrong theme?
You know, or like, you know, like
Mark Johnson: what- No, absolutely. Yeah, during the course of the 19th century, uh, northern urbanites, um, even the humbler classes, uh, boast about the amount of beef that they can get on their plates. Um, and that only increases by the end of the 19th century, um, during the wave of immigration famous to most of us that we learned in school, right?
The arrival of, um, like Eastern Europeans and Irish and, um, Italian people toward the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. Uh, yeah, I mean, they're writing back home about the amount of meat and the [00:26:00] variety of meat available to them, even to someone like them that, you know, lives a pretty, uh, humble existence.
Uh, yeah, so in the northern states, um, even early, um, but especially toward the end of the 19th century, uh, they're getting tied to the industrial food system and emerging technologies like refrigerated rail cars and, um, stuff of that sort. Uh, so they can get variety. They can get these more, uh, so-called respectable meats, especially beef.
Beef's the primary indicator of like civilization and taste and respectability. Um, and the roast beef per English taste becomes like a key, uh, staple of the diet. I should mention that they're still eating plenty of bacon. It's just way too useful- Mm-hmm ... in this age before widespread refrigeration to get rid of it altogether.
Um, [00:27:00] but they are able to get their hands on taste and respectability, um, so they do. Um, and in that context, they're looking at the places that are still cut off from the emerging industrial food system that aren't quite as tied to the meat packing centers of Cincinnati and then by mid-century Chicago that can give them fresh beef, um, in their local market.
Uh, they look at these places cut off from this or, uh, on the outskirts of this system as, yeah, backward, as remaining underdeveloped in kind of the word of the time. Uh, by the end of the century, right, the United States is increasingly starting to exercise some imperial might, encounter people around the world who are, um, you know, so seemingly primitive as they would say.
Um- [00:28:00] But it's really cause for concern that it, their own, a region in their own country, like the Appalachian South, seems stuck in what they would say is the pioneer stage of development. Mm-hmm. In the pioneer stage of development, because civilizations progress, right? Yeah. Uh, toward, you know, perfect, uh, civilization, as the story goes.
In the pioneer stage of development, yeah, that bacon absolutely works, and they wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. Um, they're just concerned that there's a region in the country, the Appalachian South, the Mountain South general, so like the Ozarks, um, the Deep South, that it's still stuck in this stage because- Hmm
they've moved on. Right. They've moved on to urbanness and, um, taste and respectability. So they, they go south, they go into the mountains looking to reform the people. Uh, you know, they're not looking at this stuck in the [00:29:00] pastness, uh, way of existence as anything charming or authentic, or especially honest or virtuous.
I mean, there's hints of that sort of stuff in the writing. Um, you can't be anything but impressed by, like, the mountains and the beauty of it all, right? Um, and the independence of spirit. But really, you should, uh, get your act together and get with the game and, um, jump into modernity with the rest of the country.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Johnson: Um, and in that mindset, with that mindset, they're still looking at their bacon eating as a symbol of their backwardness. Hmm. Uh, they're still stuck in the bacon eating stage, where they really should be, have moved on by now
Andrew Camp: Right. And then we, you know, fast-forward, you-- we have this age of restraint.
We're coming into post-World War II and the emergence, you know, industrial food system has fully taken over. Processed foods are a sign of respectability, um, at this moment, you know, and they're [00:30:00] trying to figure out the perfect diet. You know, exotic, spicy foods are looked down upon. Um, you mentioned that, like, you know, we're, we're wanting a diet that is almost void of pleasure and taste, you know, and just how do we become the perfect human, um, to continue towards progression, it feels like.
And so bacon becomes a sign of, of fat, of obesity, you know, of unhealth. And you even mentioned that bacon is almost banned, which, you know, I was mentioning this to my wife, and she's like, "What? Like bacon's almost banned? Like, why would people ban bacon?" And so, like, what, what led us as a nation to almost say, "Hey, no, no bacon."
Um, which I think may have caused another revolt. You know, if, if the government tried to ban bacon today, we-- you would probably have a lot of people up in arms. Um, but y- why was bacon looked down upon to the point that [00:31:00] government looked at banning it?
Mark Johnson: Yeah. So by the 20th century, bacon has a reputation for being suitable for laboring people, this, uh, remnant of the past for people in the pioneer stage of development, um, especially, you know, these seemingly backward Southerners and mountain people, as they would say it.
Uh, yeah, by the 20th century, though, its fattiness, um, plays a role in the way that it's despised. Uh, we have a simple, uh, you know, the con-- For us, the conventional wisdom says that fat makes people fat, right? And that was a idea, uh, really prevalent in the 20th century, um, and that you had to eliminate dietary fat from your diet, uh, giving rise to things like the Mediterranean diet or, um, and similar low-fat, uh, diets.[00:32:00]
Yeah, so in this context, bacon's reputation's only gonna get worse. Um, it's too fatty for this new age where we don't work with our bodies. We sit at desks and look at our, you know, computer screens or, uh, do, you know, reports on paper all day Um, so in that context, bacon's reputation's going to suffer. Um, it was still suitable for the cowboy, but not suitable for the desk worker.
Um, but then we learn about the dangers of nitrites and nitrates, uh, which I should mention are the chemicals that we've used for millennia to cure bacon. The ancient Romans and ancient Chinese, um, used these chemicals without really knowing it, right? They didn't have the chemical composition- ... uh, you know, and the science for that.
But they knew that, you know, salt from certain caves, uh, worked better or gave a better appearance and texture and taste to [00:33:00] it, helped it stay safe longer. Um, and they were effectively using, yeah, salt that was combined with like, uh, nitrites and nitrates. Um, and, you know, they would refer to it eventually as things like saltpeter.
Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, in the 20th century, we learn about the dangers of this stuff. So this stuff, when combined with high heat and amino acids, forms, uh, cancer-causing elements called nitrosamines, and that leads, uh, like the World Health Organization to classify, uh, them as like a Class 1 carcinogen- Mm ... or a Group 1 carcinogen.
Um, and that makes headlines. You know, that's gonna be, uh, you know, printed everywhere, "Bacon causes cancer." Right. Um, and yeah, in this new world of refrigeration, people are wondering like, you know, bacon got us through the [00:34:00] first, you know, 10,000 years, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but maybe it doesn't suit a, have a purpose anymore.
You know, maybe we should be choosing things that don't make us fat and don't cause cancer. Um, and we can get those things because we all have a refrigerator now, right? Yep. And it's the United States, and so the economy's just booming. Um, and we can get our hands on pretty much anything we want. Um, and so, yeah, in this, uh, mindset, bacon does, it seems like it's reached the end of its, like life cycle.
Um, it's reached the end of its usefulness for us. Um, and there are food writers that say as much. Uh, Florence Fabricant of The New York Times, really famous food writer, um, you know, she says that, you know, bacon has a role to add some, you know, flavor to a meal, but use as little as possible, right? [00:35:00] Um, it should play a subtle role in your cuisine.
Um, and maybe that's it, and maybe that's not... Maybe that even is too much, um, that you could get the same benefits from something leaner. Uh- Yeah, so by the end of the 20th century, there's a few things going on. Uh, by 1977, the USDA's convened a subcommittee, um, to consider banning bacon because of the nitrates and nitrites.
Uh, this is, uh, part of the work of Dr. Michael F. Jacobson, um, uh, of MIT and the Center for Science in the Public Interest. Um, he calls bacon the most dangerous food in the supermarket. Uh, by the '90s, one nutritionist, uh, quoted in N- Newsweek magazine, um, says that bacon's not even food. Um, it's not even in the food pyramid that had just come out-
Andrew Camp: Right
Mark Johnson: um, because it's [00:36:00] a, you know, salt-ridden, fat-laden, carcinogenic thing. Um, not even a food. And I see a lot of that rhetoric now- Mm ... about, like, certain foods aren't even food anymore for us. Right. Uh, they don't count as food, and that's a whole different thing, but bacon gets put in that category. Yeah, so by the '80s and '90s, uh, the National Pork Board has its own, uh, marketing campaign, The Other White Meat.
Andrew Camp: I remember.
Mark Johnson: Well,
Andrew Camp: yes. Um,
Mark Johnson: which doesn't have a role for bacon. In fact- Yeah ... in the National Pork Board's own literature, they're gonna recommend to you how to substitute out bacon in your favorite recipes- Hmm ... uh, for a different pork product, like a pork loin or a pork chop or something chopped up and thrown in the greens or the stew or whatever it was.
Um, their h- their basic hope is that you won't go all the way to chicken, right? The boneless, skinless chicken breast.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Uh, that you'll still eat pork. [00:37:00] Um, but they're trying to kind of out-chicken chicken- Mm-hmm ... um, and play this lean game, play this fat-free game, uh, with, uh, people in the grocery stores.
Um, and pork just really can't compete that way, uh, because lean pork doesn't taste all that great. Um, it gets its flavor from, like, the, uh, the fat caps and the intramuscular fat. Um, and so even lean pork, like pork chops, has to have fat in it to taste good. Um, so in the end, we all ended up with a hog that we actually didn't end up wanting.
Right. Um, and, uh, pork bellies, the part that makes bacon in the United States, are so cheap that we give them away as foreign food aid, and industry insiders call them a drag on the carcass because- Hmm ... they just don't fetch anything when they, you know, weigh and measure the, um, hog carcass at slaughtering time so that they can pay the [00:38:00] farmers.
Um, and that's... I mean, bacon's at pretty much its lowest possible point.
Andrew Camp: So then what moment, you know, caused this resurgent, you know, where now like bacon, you know, you start seeing it everywhere on fast food, you know, burgers, you know, um, Atkins di- you know, you, the Atkins diet, you know, you, I think, you know, that's mid-'90s, um, starts coming about.
So like what was it that, like the c- what was happening culturally that, you know, spurred us to then fall back in love with bacon? 'Cause it's more than just it tastes good. I think there's something, you know... You, you quote an author in the beginning that, you know, bacon in the refrigerated age, bacon has no purpose save for pleasure.
Um.
Mark Johnson: Yeah. When the National Pork Board and the bacon producers started playing that game, um, they really struck a [00:39:00] winner. So we have a few things going on that make us susceptible to this. Um, this is kind of a debate we have in food studies, like who creates demand, right? Do consumers create demand or do producers create demand, right, through, uh, what they make and what they market and how they market it?
Um, and so we gotta look at both sides of this. What made us open to bacon again? What made us ready to receive it? Um, so we're by the '90s and early aughts, we're, uh, first of all fed up with the, like government dietary advice. Um, we've had the Reagan revolution, um, and we're just fed up with government expertise because that government expertise seems corrupt.
It seems to change every day. Mm-hmm. Um, right? And all these studies, uh, seem funded by, you know, the parties that will benefit. Um, and we're just so [00:40:00] skeptical of it all. Um, in fact, this is part of what made, uh, across the spectrum, Kennedy and Maha so appealing to a lot of kinda, uh, healthy food kind of, um, uh- people that, you know, something Kennedy said was that we're gonna get rid of like the special interests when we're making our dietary advice, our dietary guidelines to the people.
Um, he didn't. The new food pyramid has plenty of footnotes with the like sponsors and co-sponsors and, uh, people who had a voice at the table. Um, but we were, um, interested in that. We were interested in ideas that, um, might work. I mean, we had this low-fat dieting, which doesn't taste any good, and it didn't work, right?
Not only, not only for the individual, but on a social level. Um, it didn't work because we had [00:41:00] just continuing, uh, to increase rates of diabetes, heart disease, heart attacks, obesity So we've been told one thing, it didn't work. We lose faith in the experts. We're just ready for someone to come... We're ready for those kind of people that come in and say, like, "Doctors don't want you to know."
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Uh, that kind of rhetoric starts to gain traction, um, and that's where the Atkins diet, uh, kind of plays a role. It actually is created much earlier, but it doesn't take off until, as you mentioned, the '90s. Um, so we're ready for-- we're ready to try something else. Um, plus it tastes good. We can eat as much meat as we want.
We feel liberated by it, even though we're restrained to that one category.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Johnson: And actually, Dr. Atkins would say that bacon doesn't count because of the nitrates and nitrites. He would rather you see-- he would [00:42:00] rather see you eat fresh meat, um- ... or uncured, uh, meat. Um, but nonetheless, in the popular imagination, bacon, bacon and eggs go together with Atkins, uh, these, uh, protein-heavy diets, uh, low-carb dieting.
So we get-- Bacon gets a boost from that. It gets a boost from this kinda screw you attitude that we've got toward, like, dietary scientists and government regulation, precisely because bacon had been public enemy number one. Uh, you know, these were groups that had made bacon their target. Um, and so when we're ready to kind of push back against them, push a back- push back against the science, against, you know, uh, these so-called experts that wanna tell us what to do, uh, bacon is the most readily available symbol then of something- Mm-hmm
that they specifically told us not to eat. So we're gonna eat it. [00:43:00] Um, but then, yeah, kind of rediscovering bacon for the way that it had played a role in our cuisine for millennia, and that's in smaller amounts, um, to add pleasure, to extend a meal, to, uh, add fat, add flavor, um, add some salt, um, to a meal.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Johnson: Now, back then, right, they were adding it to, I've said it a few times, the greens, the porridges, the stews. Uh, but we're going to add it to the, yeah, the donut and the bacon club chalupa and the Baconator, um, because pork bellies are so cheap that fast food can get them for next to nothing, right?
Get bacon for next to nothing. Add fat and salt, which fast food is going to love to do.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Uh, because it tastes good, right? We get addicted to it, and we just want- Mm-hmm ... more and more of it And they get to advertise, you know, [00:44:00] cachet and excitement and interestingness, um, and jack up the price- Yeah ... uh, you know, many times over what they actually paid for it.
And so I think it's interesting that we rediscovered these ways, um, to eat small amounts of bacon as toppings and flavorings. Uh, I should mention that plenty of people had not-- had no need to rediscover it because they're marginalized. Right. So they had to, with economy, marshal their resources and still save the bacon grease.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, that's something that we discover, rediscover as like middle class white Americans. In the food writing, people are like, "Did you know you could save the bacon grease?" It's like, yeah, there are plenty of people that never forgot that. No. Um, but for a certain class of person, um, you know, they needed to be retold that they could do that and make delicious things with it.
And [00:45:00] now we're just gonna push that further, right? Right. We're gonna, uh, bacon wash our bourbons, right? Mm-hmm. For a bacon old fashioned or something like that. Um, so yeah, we find ways to use this little bit of bacon at a time. Like a bacon donut can't really have that much bacon on it, right?
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Um, and so we know we're supposed to eat small amounts, check, um, if we eat it at all.
Um, and so it does, it gets caught up in, well, I'm already kinda like sinning. I'm already kind of cheating on my diet. Um, might as well have some bacon too.
Andrew Camp: Right. And then you have the, you know, new cuisine. You know, I remember when I started cooking professionally in 2008, you know, I was working at a restaurant in LA, pork belly was all the rage.
You know, every menu had to have a pork belly. You know- Mm-hmm ... and it wasn't bacon, but it was, you know, they-- [00:46:00] We braised it or cooked it sous vide and, you know, you slice it and you pan fry it and it's delicious, you know. Um, but then you have the rise of Southern cuisine, you know, that's reimagining and I think again, like you mentioned, it hearkens back to this lore of American history, but without the Paying true homage to what bacon may have represented.
Um.
Mark Johnson: Yeah. We're, um, yeah, over the late 20th century, uh, the in fashion haute cuisine. Mm-hmm. Uh, so we've, we've turned our back, at least in the United States, on kinda like the French haute cuisine with its just, like, mountains of butter, right? Isn't it Montée Le Bure- Yeah ... in your sauces, right? To just, like, you reduce the sauce to nothing, and then you build it back up with butter.
Butter, yes. Um, yeah, we've kind of turned our backs on, like, French haute cuisine. First of all, it's too snobby and too pretentious. [00:47:00] Um, but yeah, we also have these concerns about, like, fat and health. Um, so the in fashion haute cuisine is, like, the, uh, you know, Chez Panisse style. Um, you know, oh, you don't need all that seasoning and butter if you were to just get a local carrot, right?
Right. Or a local tomato or something. Yeah. Um, because it tastes so good, you actually should do minimally to it. You should do as little as possible to it. Um, you know, we kind of s- we've, we're increasingly mocking the, uh, haute cuisine, and especially these, you know, the California cuisine, the nouvelle cuisine, and then molecular gastronomy especially, um, as over, uh, as kind of- Uh, we like to mock the, um, small portions at these places.
Um, we like to... Like the molecular gastronomy, it's overwrought, [00:48:00] overcomplicated. Nothing's familiar. Everything comes with a foam.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Right? Everything's made in a centrifuge. So yeah, I think, you know, this fine dining Southern cuisine is the reaction. Mm. Um, it's food that, you know, to a, to most Americans would look like food and taste like food, right?
Pork chops and cornbread and greens and, uh, bourbon and, uh, it's served in its, um, you know, rustic, uh, aesthetic, you know, cotton weave cloth, uh, you know, in wood bowls and cast iron. Mm-hmm. Um, but we're paying a lot for it-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Mark Johnson: at, you know, these Southern fine dining restaurants. And so we're still like, we're eating the food of humble people because at least it's not haute cuisine, right?
And this is what my friend Margo Finn, uh, author of Discriminating Taste would say is, like, we're turning our attention to these [00:49:00] cuisines because they allow us to evoke like a sense of democracy or a sense of solidarity with people, um, because it doesn't look pretentious, right? It doesn't taste pretentious.
Um, but it is at a price point out of reach for most people. Right. Uh, especially the people it claims to, um, romanticize. And, uh, yeah, bacon will play a huge role in this new turn, right? Because it, uh, you c- it signals humility, it signals like back to the land and knowing your producer. Um, craft bacon just explodes.
Um, and the scholar, uh, Brad Weiss did a great book on like heritage breed hogs and their aesthetic in, uh, western North Carolina. Um, and so we can reconcile a lot of values. Oh, we're eating the food of marginalized people, or, uh, we're not eating that fancy. Uh, we know our producer, and our producer [00:50:00] practices these, you know, humane tactics, you know, of, you know, free ranger pasture raising, uh, heritage breeds.
This isn't a commodity animal. Mm-hmm. Uh, humanely taken care of. Uh, and I get to know my producer like people in ye oldie days, um, supposedly did. And so we can reconcile all these values, um, and make us feel good about our consumption again. Um, and again, out of... This stuff costs more than the stuff at the grocery store.
Um, and so it's out of reach of the actual people that you're claiming to be embodying.
Andrew Camp: I love that phrase. Like, yeah, it gives us a sense of comfort without actually putting us in proximity to the people we actually want, you know, want to rep- want it to represent. Um-
Mark Johnson: Yeah, in the United States we eat plenty of cuisines of people that we, like, don't like, um- Yeah
as a society, [00:51:00] right? Um, you know, it got me thinking about it, you know, when all these stories about people who would go into Mexican restaurants and write, write nasty things instead of leaving tips, um, about like Trump deporting people, right? Like, um... And so, yeah, as, as scholars in food studies we are very interested in, um, what compels us to eat foods of marginalized people, and what are the opportunities, and we shouldn't throw that part out.
What are the opportunities for solidarity with these people? Uh, but it doesn't, you know, make us actually very, you know, democratic or worldly to like eat Thai, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, plenty of people eat Thai that, you know, don't want to actually, you know, live next to or go to school with, um, you know, immigrants.
Um, so yeah. Uh, that's something that, you know, the bacon book tries to unravel at least a little bit, [00:52:00] you know, the extent of solidarity with the mountain man and what that means and, um, but how people continue to, uh, caricature them for their own needs.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. And so I'm curious, like, 'cause in this moment when, you know, political divisiveness is strife, we're seeing economic disparities galore, um, you know, racial issues are...
You know, like as a food historian and a... You know, what, what do you hope food and the table can do for us as a people beyond just making us look good at the most fashionable restaurant? 'Cause we can all, you know, whatever. Like, you know, I love eating out, but ultimately, you know, where, where can food push us towards solidarity?
Mark Johnson: Yeah. I mean, I hope, I mean, I hope the one step is to actually, like, learn and care about the people that, you know, whose cuisine you're enjoying. [00:53:00] Um, but actually, like, eat with and among those people. And, uh, you know, there's a hierarchy when you go into the restaurant and you're the customer. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, break those bonds down, um, and make sure, yeah, that you're not just exploiting people uh, to satisfy your own pleasures.
Um, and I think there's... That's the opportunity, right? These cuisines, um, and these global, uh, cuisines, um, offer us, or these, uh, you know, the sort of reclaiming of these humble cuisines here at home. Mm-hmm. Uh, Appalachian cuisine is having its own moment. Um, it has been for a couple decades now. Hmm. Um, but you know, it doesn't necessarily lead to any meaningful, like, change for the actual, uh, people of the Mountain South who, [00:54:00] um, can actually, like, live the way that you're describing when you, when we describe, um, you know, this mythic mountain past.
Uh, you know, Barbara Kingsolver, for example, the novelist, said something about Appalachia as a place where, where it rains and spring water bubbles out of the ground. It's like Appalachia's dealt with way too much mining, uh, that you shouldn't be drinking the spring water that comes out of the ground.
Right. Um, like that, you know, and like, we have things like at Husk, the Kentucky Yaki, which is like the bourbon barrel aged soy sauces, uh- Hmm ... you know, glazed on pig's ears. Um, you know, seemingly, you know, put off as how people used to eat, but like now those very people are the ones who are tied more than ever to the industrialized food system.
Yeah. As a bitter Southerner, uh, author wrote a few years ago that, you know, the people of the Mountain [00:55:00] South, you know, they're, you know, eating white bread and Skippy peanut butter and Lay's potato chips and, you know, they're living in the food deserts, you know? So we portray Appalachia as this place of abundance and freshness, um, but have all these food deserts.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Johnson: So yeah, I mean, I think, uh, policy instead of gestures of solidarity, uh, are the things we need.
Andrew Camp: Like you mentioned, you know, the so- policy, you know, solidarity, you know, versus just this romanticized ideas, you know, and exploitation. I think I even remember hearing when, you know, quinoa was becoming all the rage from, you know, the Andes, you know, it actually decimated their food culture, you know, and they were eating more processed foods, and it wasn't leading to the health of their communities as we ate more quinoa.
Um-
Mark Johnson: I actually know the person that wrote the quinoa [00:56:00] book. Uh, it's my friend at UTC, Emma McDonnell. Okay. Um, so that didn't actually happen. Um- No? ... like Andean farmers still grew plenty of quinoa, like for themselves.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Mark Johnson: Um, they didn't, uh... But yeah, what you're referring to is that, you know, like on the farms of the United States, right?
Like you just drive through hours and hours of like corn that's not meant for the table, right? It's meant for ethanol and corn syrup and, or soy, right? Yeah. All this soy, um, just dominating the fields. Um, so that does absolutely happen. Uh, in the Andes though, at least according to her, like, um, ethnography, um, people still reserved plenty of quinoa for themselves.
Okay. Yeah. Um, but they-- the fact is, yeah, we do. There's still a truth in the story anyway. I shouldn't, I should have left, left with that, in that these people do eat, you know, humble, meager [00:57:00] meals, you know, whereas we get to eat it as like a super food, right? Right. That's supposedly gonna solve all of our problems.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, and then you're also seeing the rise of indigenous chefs here in America from, you know, Sean Sherman, Nephi Craig, um, and others highlighting it, and hopefully that helps bring, you know, new resources for the indigenous people who, who are just decimated by food deserts and food insecurity.
Um, you know, I live in Flagstaff- Mm-hmm ... right near the Navajo Nation, near the Apache. You know, and in Flagstaff, which is, you know, people would claim, you know, our high cost of living, you know, it's expensive to live here, but food insecurity is high, at a higher percentage than the national rate, and then it's, you go to the Navajo Nation or the Apache people, and it's five to 7% higher than the national average, if not more.
Um, you know, and so how do, how do we continue to be aware of the stories food [00:58:00] tells, you know, and, and learn and grow and enjoy the beauty of it, but while also then helping raise that, you know, food security for the people that need it most?
Mark Johnson: Yeah. I mean, what does it mean to, you know, extract from a culture what you want- Right
uh, but, you know, don't take the other parts with it, right? Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, that's where we really, we need the, like, systemic changes, make sure that people have, like, ownership, people have, uh, you know, claims, uh, you know, that the dollars circulate in the right places, um- Mm-hmm ... and that it's not just being extracted from its geographical and cultural space, uh, you know, to satisfy our pleasures.
You know, that's what Lisa Helke would call, like, culinary colonialism.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: Um, yeah. [00:59:00] And yeah, there's an absolute opportunity, you know, for these cuisines, uh, as long as we, uh, pay attention to, like, the systemic, um, issues that people are compensated, that people are employed and, uh, valued for their labor.
And if that's an in, then that's fantastic
Andrew Camp: And so as you've written about bacon, you know, and your, your story, your book does paint that story of like, okay, what is the complicated history and what, what do we need to know and how can we help change issues? Like what are y- what's your hope as people read about bacon?
Like what, you know, what do you hope people come away with it or change or, you know, like if you could wave a magic wand?
Mark Johnson: I mean, I think the big takeaway, you know, as a historian generally is I want students to understand that just stuff changes over time. Um, I think, you know, I saw a meme to that extent, you know, not [01:00:00] long ago where it's like some brand new thing is actually as old as time, right?
And like something you think is as old as time was actually invented in like the 1980s. I think it was like about ciabatta, right? Like, oh, ciabatta, this like ar- artisanal bread that the medieval Italians would've like made, right? It's like from the 1980s 'cause he wanted something that was like baguettes.
Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, just like be prepared to understand that things change over time and that things, um, haven't always been at the, the way they are now. And, um, embrace that story of change because if you do, then future changes won't bother you so much. Um, right? Like we have all these things going on right now in our politics, like, oh, we're, you know, overturning millennia of doing things one way.
It's like, well, that's not true. Um, you know, it's always been changing and if you [01:01:00] recognize that, then you'll be more comfortable with the next change- Mm-hmm ... uh, whatever that may be, in whatever realm that might be, whether it's, um, in our politics or our culture or our food or music, um, it won't be so unsuspecting.
Andrew Camp: No. I appreciate it. Um, and as we wrap up some, some fun questions about food. Um- Sure ... and I'm really, I'm curious, you know, uh, your responses. What's one food you refuse to eat?
Mark Johnson: Gosh, I don't think I have anything like that I've refused in a very long time. Okay. Um, but I'm, I'm not-- You're not gonna see like peas- Okay ... in my, in my refrigerator or freezer. Okay. Um, if they're yours and he- they're offered to me, I will happily gobble them up, but I, uh, have chosen other things.
Andrew Camp: Fair [01:02:00] enough.
Fair enough. What's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Mark Johnson: One of the best things I've ever eaten Um, let's like... So I mean, I've been on this kick lately and, um, like maybe I'm just being contrarian in our own moment, but I'm here to like raise the flag for the processed food right now. Okay. Uh, like let's not lose sight of the pleasures that an Oreo can give you.
Andrew Camp: Right. And,
Mark Johnson: yeah. They're so good. Like, get over it. Especially they're... Have you tried- Like, so I'm all about like Oreos and Doritos right now. Like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Have you tried the new Reese's Oreos?
Mark Johnson: I have not. Um, they are moving a little too fast with their varieties for- They, yes ... me to, uh, stay up to date on what's actually new and what's been around for 10 years.
Right. Um, [01:03:00] but yeah. Like we're living at a ti- like we think that someone that eats bacon every day is just absolutely living the life. But let's go back and ask the people who ate bacon every day.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Johnson: And they were ready to literally eat anything else.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yes.
Mark Johnson: Um, they would marvel at the in- at an Oreo.
Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.
Mark Johnson: So let's marvel at the Oreo.
Andrew Camp: Fair. Yes. No, there's, there is Oreo... There is something beautiful about an Oreo, and the Reese's Peanut Butter Oreos are, are quite delicious. Um, if you see them, they're worth a, a find. I, I did see Oreo was coming out, and has come out with like a firecracker Oreo, which is like the firecracker popsicle in an Oreo flavor, which to me feels a little too much, but to ea- to each their own.
Um- Way to try
Mark Johnson: and be alive.
Andrew Camp: [01:04:00] Right. And finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? So if Mark had one last meal, what might be on your table?
Mark Johnson: Oh, I should've been prepared for this, 'cause yes, I've seen this going on.
Um- Right ... and, and I've been thinking about how I would use it like in class, like the videos on YouTube- Mm-hmm. Yep ... of people describing their last meals. Like, what are you hoping to communicate through your last meal, right? Mm-hmm. What, you know, maybe legacy do you want to leave, or who do you want to honor?
So I guess that's how I think about it. Like, um, so I guess I'm gonna overthink it. Um, but I'm also- Yeah ... gonna say like I would honor, yeah, where I'm from. And like, uh, you know, like the first things that pop to mind are like, uh, you know, homemade German potato salad and like a brat with like mustard and sauerkraut.
I mean, I was just in [01:05:00] Wisconsin, so that's what's coming up.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, for
Mark Johnson: sure. Um, you know? But like- You know, like I, especially something like a s- like that, it's like, no, I would not put that objectively, like the bratwurst for exam- as like objectively the best food I could possibly eat. But as like a best food in that moment, um, I think that would work.
Andrew Camp: Right. No, I think I got this question, I remember it 'cause there was a cookbook, this came out, you know, 2008, 2009, where they asked all the chefs what their last meals would be, and, um, you know, Gordon Ramsay, Mario Batali at the time, and, uh- Okay ... most of, most of them wanted their mom's comfort foods. Um, you know, which I, I, I think is a fascinating look.
Okay, like, like you said, if we're thinking about what our last meal is, what do we wanna communicate or what do we wanna remember, it's the nostalgia. Mm-hmm. It's the, [01:06:00] it's the family meals around the table, whereas these chefs have access and have eaten more fine food than you and I could ever imagine.
And so yet they still- Right ... they still crave their mom's spaghetti and meatballs or meatloaf.
Mark Johnson: Or at least they want to be known as craving their mom's-
Andrew Camp: Yes ... spaghetti. Yeah.
Mark Johnson: I'm too skeptical maybe for the question.
Andrew Camp: There, fair enough. Fair enough. You are a historian, you know, I, yes, fair enough. Well, Mark, I've appreciated this conversation.
I appreciate the history, um, the stories. And so if people wanna learn more about your work, where can they find you.
Mark Johnson: Yeah. So you can find the book, "American Bacon," at, uh, hopefully your local bookseller, um, but also on online retailers. Um, but you can reach me, um, on Instagram @baconscholar, um, or, you know, through the University of Tennessee Chattanooga.
Andrew Camp: Awesome.
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Thanks for joining us on this episode of "The Biggest Table," where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.