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Tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode of Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast. Join Francine L. Shaw, the savvy CEO of Savvy Food Safety, and Matthew Regusci, compliance connoisseur and founder of Fostering Compliance, as they serve up the latest in food safety with a side of laughter.
Explore the ins and outs of food systems, responsible food practices, and food safety regulations. Stay informed about food safety awareness and the not-so-occasional food recall. Delve deep into the complexities of the food supply chain with our dynamic duo, who blend expert insights with a pinch of food safety humor. Whether you're knee-deep in the food safety industry or just passionate about what's on your plate, this podcast promises a fresh take on staying safe while eating well.
Expect candid conversations, personal anecdotes, and occasional guest appearances that spice up the discussion. Shaw and Regusci bring their combined decades of experience to the table, making each episode as informative as it is entertaining. From industry trends to must-know food safety news and regulations, they've got your back (and your lunch).
In essence, Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast is not just about imparting information; it's about fostering a culture of food safety. By shedding light on the intricacies of the food supply chain and the latest food safety news, it aims to promote awareness and encourage responsible food practices among consumers and industry professionals alike.
When it comes to food safety, knowledge is power, and a good laugh is the best seasoning. At the heart of every episode is one golden rule: Don't Eat Poop!
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[00:00:00] Michelle: But I noticed the special in the full service didn't match the special that was in the self-service, and it was gumbo. And so I'm like, "You know, we've got two different versions of gumbo. What's happening here?" And it was me just asking the question, "What's the deal?" And someone said, "Well, that's my gumbo in the case.
I made that gumbo, and I want to see whose gumbo sells. I think mine's gonna outsell the gumbo that they make here."
[00:00:33] Matt: It's like, so she made this gumbo at home?
[00:00:35] Michelle: Put it in a beautiful bowl on display, totally different than what's in there, and we have no idea what's in there. We have no idea. It could be cat hairs and who knows.
[00:00:49] Matt: Oh my gosh.
[00:00:56] Intro: Everybody's gotta eat, and nobody likes getting sick. [00:01:00] That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points, from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine Elshawer and Matt Regusci for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule: don't eat poop Don't eat poop
[00:01:21] Matt: Hello, hello, Francine
[00:01:23] Francine: Good morning, Matt
[00:01:24] Matt: We have a, we have a fun guest
[00:01:27] Michelle: We
[00:01:27] Matt: do Yeah.
Michelle, how do you say your last name? Is it Wollensine?
[00:01:31] Michelle: You got it on the first try
[00:01:33] Matt: Nice. That was better than you last hour
[00:01:37] Michelle: I know. Regusci, Regusci. Usually I know when a phone solicitor's calling me because they just, you know, Wollensine, or, or they even try to go with the Vuh- Wollensine, and-
[00:01:51] Matt: So we just got done talking with you on a LinkedIn Live, which was a lot of fun, and you are the founder of InnoSafe Foods and the podcast [00:02:00] host of The Food Safety Exchange.
We were just on that, Food Safety Exchange, and we exchanged ideas
[00:02:07] Michelle: And we exchanged platforms
[00:02:10] Matt: We did exchange platforms
[00:02:12] Michelle: Yeah, it's like Friday exchange
[00:02:14] Francine: Freaky Friday Totally, Freaky Friday. Where am I?
[00:02:18] Matt: All right. Well, Michelle, tell the listeners about yourself
[00:02:21] Michelle: Yeah. Well, I am currently in the middle of a major move, so everything on the other side of my laptop is complete chaos.
Getting ready to move from Des Moines to Austin. Austin, Texas, so be closer to family, have my granddaughter. I actually, my background, I came through operations, like Francine, and mine was working in restaurants, working my way up to management. And then when I had small kids, back in the '90s, they don't really pay you insurance and benefits, and you work [00:03:00] 80-hour weeks.
And that was not working for me with having small children. So I left the restaurant business, the operations, and I went into the grocery retail, and I wanted something easy, where I didn't have to think, and I could just, you know... When they said, "Well, there's no overtime here," and I went, "Oh my gosh, what does that mean?
I can just clock in and clock out." Well, I lasted about three months as a cashier, then I moved up to the front end manager, then I moved up to the coverage manager and the operations manager. And somewhere in the early 2000s, I made a shift from being in retail stores, going to more of a compliance role.
And that compliance role was really not set up for success. When you have one person that's gonna oversee food safety, risk, and loss prevention- There were [00:04:00] experts in each of those fields, but they wanted somebody out in the stores doing all three. And so I did that for a little while, and we just got rid of that position.
2002, I went full-time into corporate food safety, and I started that at H-E-B Grocery Company, and that's really where I started my career in operations in retail grocery. And then after a few years, I went into the food safety role, something that I've always just been passionate about. I think in the restaurant business, I worked for a company in Austin and for a restaurant, and the owner...
It's the first time I ever really learned about food safety culture. Back in the '90s, any restaurant that I worked for, I did not see the quality and food safety culture there, and I learned it at this particular restaurant, Serrano's. I have to give them a plug. They were the ones that really taught me [00:05:00] what that meant, and that passion always stayed with me.
And so when I went into retail, that's where I, I really focused on, and I, and I loved it. I was with the company for 16 years and left, and went into consulting. And then my husband and I did something crazy. We sold everything that we owned once we became empty nesters, and we, we moved to Mexico. Oh. Lived there for three years.
Didn't have a car, just our dog and a couple of suitcases. We lived there in Oaxaca on the coast for three years, and we came back, and we came back just in time for COVID. We were stuck in LA County for two years during COVID. And once we recovered from that, I came up here to Des Moines. What a long introduction, but came up here to Des Moines and started back into the corporate world, and 18 months later, I was laid off.
So I have decided [00:06:00] at my age, I love what I do, and I'm happy doing consulting, and now that I'm doing the Food Safety Exchange, I absolutely enjoy that. I really do enjoy people, so.
[00:06:11] Matt: Yeah. You moved to, you moved to Mexico.
[00:06:14] Michelle: No, you have to understand. We moved to Mexico, and we didn't bring anything with us, and when we came back, we didn't have a car.
We didn't have anything. And it's one thing when you go somewhere like Mexico, but when you come back to the United States, that's the bigger shock. Moving to Mexico was easy, but when you come back with pesos in your hand, and gas in LA is, like, $7 a gallon-
[00:06:45] Matt: Yeah ...
[00:06:46] Michelle: pesos aren't gonna cut it.
[00:06:47] Francine: I don't know if my come back to would've been LA.
[00:06:51] Matt: Yeah.
[00:06:52] Michelle: Just saying. 100%. My mom lives in, in LA County. She lives about 15 minutes east of [00:07:00] Pasadena. She has two houses on her property, and her back house, 450 square feet, okay? My husband's 6'4". And we thought, "Okay. We'll come. We'll help her with some renovation. We'll figure out our plan." It was definitely not a long-term plan.
[00:07:18] Francine: LA makes more sense now.
[00:07:20] Michelle: But it was like, okay, 60 days, and we'll look for jobs, get acclimated. We need to get a car, all of this stuff. 60 days later, COVID hit, and we weren't even allowed to leave, and nobody wanted us. Nobody wanted us. So, so my husband got a job as a meat cutter at, um, Costco as an essential worker, and my point, everybody was closing down, so it was a rough ride.
[00:07:55] Matt: What an interesting story
[00:07:57] Michelle: My dog's bilingual.[00:08:00]
[00:08:02] Matt: Okay, so you have been in food safety, like Francine and I, since the very beginning of food safety. What have you seen, particularly on the retailer side of stuff, since that was of the bulk of your career, what have you seen has been like the major difference from when you started in food safety to where it is now?
[00:08:19] Michelle: I have seen such massive focus on convenience, and even when I was starting out in the specialty foods division for H-E-B, which is central market, they were already preparing for that, just prepared foods.
[00:08:41] Matt: Oh, so when you say convenience, you're talking about food convenience.
[00:08:44] Michelle: Food convenience.
[00:08:46] Matt: Yes.
[00:08:46] Michelle: And so I've seen it at the idea state, and I've seen it morphed into where it used to be something that you go into a store and get it out of a case, and now people [00:09:00] are delivering food to your home.
And so this convenience factor has just blown up, and we don't really have a handle on that. I've seen it blow up, and the business really never catches up with, A, the idea's there, they roll it out, and there are still so many gaps. Some of these models for delivering food to homes are considered manufacturers.
They're prepared foods ready to eat, but they're considered retail, so they don't have environmental monitoring. And I'm not saying all, because there, there are some that do have it, but there are also some that don't. And I just see all of these different business models of food and convenience and That's really what I see.
[00:09:56] Francine: I want to say something about that. Yeah. I have a friend that called [00:10:00] me a couple days ago and she said, "So I got a subscription from one of those food delivery companies." I'm like, "You did what?" And she said she's just gotten out of the hospital. She was in ICU last week, serious, some serious health issues happening.
I said like, "You did what?" And she said... I said, "Do you not read anything I write? What kind of friend are you?" She's a really good, really good friend of mine I'm like, "This is what you're gonna do when that package comes, and I want you to call me." So I told her, and she worked in food service. We met at the company that I worked for.
I said, "I want you to do this when that package arrives at your home." And she lives in Florida. Okay? She- th- this is important. She lives in Florida. So she called me. She said, "I'll call you Thursday 'cause that's when it's gonna get here." And I said, "Okay, you do that. Let me know how it goes." She sends me a text last night.
Actually, she called me last night, and she said, "It's still not here." And she sends me a screenshot from FedEx. Still not here. [00:11:00] They picked it up on the 28th.
[00:11:02] Matt: Ooh.
[00:11:02] Francine: Today's the 1st. She still does not have it. This package of refrigerated food has been driving around in this truck now for three days. 28, 29, 30.
Today's the 1st. She still doesn't have it.
[00:11:20] Michelle: I had a client that was a, a home delivery, and before I went to the facility, I ordered the food 'cause I wanted to see how it was packaged, and I wanted to follow the instructions and see how everything was. So I received it, and I got about four days worth of meals.
And they're not cheap. They're not cheap at all, but I got about four days of meals, and I noticed that there's two different cooking instructions. On the bottom of the package, it says, "Cook to 165 for food safety [00:12:00] reasons." That's on the bottom. Now, it took me a couple of meals to even look on the bottom to see that it was there, because on the top of the package, the chef's recommendation is to cook it at 375 for 35 minutes or until 140 degrees.
Okay, well, we know what that means. So I did it, though. I did it. I followed the instructions and wanted to see what that looks like. It wasn't even cooked. It was still cold. Or, I mean, it was cooked 'cause it was, it was all ready to eat, but it was frozen, and it was still cold at 140. So first thing I did before I even got there was like, "Hey, guys, you need to change this labeling.
First of all, you need to reheat to 165, and the chef's recommendation doesn't even really provide the cooked... [00:13:00] the, the food warm." And So when I got to the facility, I, you know, that's when I was like, "We really need to change that to 165." Because again, some of these facilities don't have... These operations, not all of them fall under the FDA.
They fall under a local regulator under retail, and there's absolutely no environmental monitoring happening, and it's all ready to eat.
[00:13:30] Francine: Right.
[00:13:31] Michelle: And so the food came cold. The packaging was gorgeous. As a matter of fact, I kept the cooler, because I'm kind of a hoarder like that. They give me a good styrofoam box, and I'm like...
I mean, it was really well packaged, and it was cold, but then the instructions were not going to do what they should be doing for food safety.
[00:13:53] Francine: So when my husband and I first bought the home that we live in now, things were just chaotic, and [00:14:00] I purchased two different companies, those kits, just to see how it went.
Took the temperatures when they arrived. Several of them weren't at the proper temperature. Not only that, but these kits are supposed to last a week Many of the items in the kit expired before the week was up. Now, how many people do you think are checking those dates or the temperatures?
[00:14:24] Matt: Oh, yeah. No.
[00:14:25] Francine: Yeah. So of course, I contacted the company. There's no response.
[00:14:30] Matt: Yeah.
[00:14:30] Michelle: Yeah. You know, I've got a funny... Not funny. This is one of those stories, and again, it's prepared foods, but I walked into a location, walked into a company, and I see that they've got a special in a case for full service, and then they've got the same special for self-service.
And okay, so you've got it in two different places, great, but I noticed the special in the full service [00:15:00] didn't match the special that was in the self-service, and it was gumbo. And so I'm like, "You know, we've got two different versions of gumbo. What's happening here?" And
[00:15:13] Francine: it was me just asking the question, "What's the deal?"
And someone said, "
[00:15:18] Michelle: Well, that's my gumbo in the case. I made that gumbo, and I want to see whose gumbo sells. I think mine's gonna outsell the gumbo that they make here."
[00:15:29] Matt: Second. So she made this gumbo at home?
[00:15:31] Michelle: Put it in a beautiful bowl on display, totally different than what's in there, and we have no idea what's in there.
We have no idea, and it could be cat hairs and who knows.
[00:15:45] Matt: Oh my gosh.
[00:15:45] Michelle: Oh, yeah. And so those things are just golden moments when you walk- Okay,
[00:15:50] Matt: so, okay, this story obviously, okay, I'm just gonna break... We're gonna go down a rabbit hole here. This is, like, a grocery store or is this like a, like a restaurant?
[00:15:58] Michelle: It's kind of a hybrid [00:16:00] where you go in, you shop, you can either eat on site, and you can even order from a cafe, or you can go to their self-service areas, the salad bar, soup bar. Got it.
[00:16:16] Matt: It's a hybrid. You go up and then you check it out, and then you buy the stuff. Yeah. And then you can eat there or you can take it home.
Yep. Got it. Okay, so from this-
[00:16:24] Michelle: Yeah ...
[00:16:24] Matt: there's a few things How would she know if one gumbo was better than the other, outsourced, sold them, if y- the consumer was not tasting both of them to compare which one they actually wanted?
[00:16:38] Michelle: She was sampling hers.
[00:16:41] Francine: Oh.
[00:16:42] Michelle: She had little cups with a spoon, and she asked me, "Would you like to try them?"
Okay, this is gonna make me
[00:16:49] Matt: not have samples anymore. Thank you for ruining my life here, Michelle.
[00:16:53] Michelle: Well, and just know this was a long, long, long, long time ago. And do you think that doesn't happen anymore, Michelle?
[00:16:59] Matt: No, [00:17:00] it's, it totally
[00:17:00] Michelle: happens. Oh, it happens. I, uh, believe me, I have seen people on social media walk into restaurants and go back there and start cooking for other pe- you know?
Like, "Oh, I make the best cheese steak sandwich," and they'll walk into their friend's restaurant and go behind the kitchen and just start cooking. So yes, it happens. And it just so happens, like, I'm Mr. Magoo and I just walked into it. And I said, "Well, I can tell you whose is going to sell less. It's going to be yours."
[00:17:35] Matt: Okay, I mean, there, of all the things, too, gumbo is, depending upon what you're putting in the gumbo, is, could be really high risk.
[00:17:41] Michelle: Absolutely. Oh my gosh. In so many ways.
[00:17:44] Francine: Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna be honest here. I don't know what gumbo is.
[00:17:48] Michelle: Gu-
[00:17:48] Francine: really? Look at you both The looks on your faces.
[00:17:52] Michelle: It's a soup. It's thickened with a roux.
You make a roux with flour and fat.
[00:17:58] Francine: Right.
[00:17:59] Michelle: And the [00:18:00] darker it is, the richer it is. I, I make gumbo. I'm a big gumbo fan, so it's just so funny that this is what happened to me when I was looking for gumbo, 'cause I thought, oh. Anyway, and I sampled it before I found out what was going on. So anyway, and it's got...
You can have seafood gumbo, so it's'll have shrimp- I've heard
[00:18:21] Francine: of it ... crawfish, oysters, whatever you want in there. You can have sausage, you can have chicken. Do they ever put, like, corn cobs and crab legs and stuff in it?
[00:18:31] Michelle: That's a boil. That's a boil. You're thinking of a crawfish boil, seafood boil, and that's when you get the corn and the potatoes and the sausage, and you boil it all and you strain it.
You're talking to the person that has a crawfish boil every time the wind blows. And you, you strain it, and you dump it all on a table covered with white butcher paper. It's fun. It's awesome. It's really one of those kinda barbaric, you're eating with your hands and you're just- I
[00:18:56] Matt: love it.
[00:18:56] Michelle: I love it. Yeah.
[00:18:58] Matt: Yeah. But gumbo is... So [00:19:00] gumbo is one of those dishes, like you have to like, like everything that's a Louisiana dish , quote unquote, "Louisiana dish", they all kinda taste the same. It's jerked type of seasoning that's spicy and savory and... Michelle, I totally would've been the person that would've taken that sample of gumbo, 'cause I love gumbo, and then been like, "Wait, this is yours from your kitchen?"
[00:19:23] Michelle: Yeah. That's exactly-
[00:19:24] Matt: Dear Lord.
[00:19:25] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Matt: What are you doing to me?
[00:19:26] Francine: Yeah, no. Yeah. I'd been like, "You can't, we can't do this."
[00:19:29] Michelle: Well, I mean, the thing is, is like, to take her face beaming with pride and... Because I said, "Oh, so you have this." 'Cause it, it was cold. It's in a cold case. And I said, "Oh, you have this. So if I want some, I can go over there to the soup bar and get it hot."
She's like, "No, that's a different one." And I went over there and I looked and I went, "These are different. What's going on here?" "Well, this one's mine, and I wanna see which one sells." And so she would [00:20:00] actually bring some of that soup over, and she was sampling both. She wanted to see whose was going to sell more.
[00:20:08] Matt: With your consulting, are you doing that? Are you consulting with the convenience side of stuff? What are your main things that you help people with in your consulting business?
[00:20:16] Michelle: So it's been airline catering. It's been actually things I would have expected more retail, but it's been more, I guess, like prepared foods type.
But airline catering, home meal deliveries, and there was a case of somebody served morels on their morel mushrooms on a daily special, and a few people died, and a lot of people got sick. And so for that, it was tracing back the breakdown from The Himalayans in China, where the monks pick the morels, [00:21:00] all the way to the San Francisco, where the customs are, to the distribution center, through transportation to the actual business where it was sold.
[00:21:15] Matt: And was it, like, the raw mushrooms, or were they getting sick from pathogens?
[00:21:19] Michelle: Yeah, so it was really hard for them to determine exactly where it was coming from, but first they were worried that it wasn't the true morel mushroom. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'd be worried about. But no, they were. They were the true morel mushrooms, but they were undercooked.
Mm. And so where I came in is, where does the liability fall? But also following the whole scene and understanding how these mushrooms were shipped, how they were packaged. There were a lot of variables that could have contributed, but at the end of the day, if you are selling or [00:22:00] distributing morel mushrooms, or any type of mushrooms, you are required to have a wild mushroom identification certification.
And if you don't have that certification, then you're required to provide a disclaimer to your customer, and that customer could be the restaurant, a grocery store. Could be... But that disclaimer has to be there. So it was really trying to determine... Obviously, the company that, where people got sick and somebody died, they knew they were liable.
[00:22:42] Matt: Yeah.
[00:22:42] Michelle: But where else did that liability fall? Right. And so, you know, it was really working... For me, I, it, I've been involved in a couple of, you know, more legal, the legal side of things, and for companies, they get issued their 483s, and I go on [00:23:00] site. The airline catering company, that was something that I did for several months.
[00:23:06] Francine: I remember that. Yeah.
[00:23:07] Michelle: I think I was on site for three or four months between three different major airports. I've never been so depressed working at airports. There is nothing exciting about living in a, a hotel at the airport. But yeah, I mean, it was, uh, quite an experience. But you know, the interesting thing is, is that a lot of these...
And I would say the morel mushrooms, that was honestly a lack of education. Somebody did not get the memo of how you handle morel mushrooms, and we know just how risky they are. But in other cases that I've been to, it has to do with the leadership culture. Whenever I go in and they're like, "Hey, I want you to write me a food safety plan "Hi, it's my first day.
[00:24:00] I'd like to see your facility. I'd like to understand. I'm gonna be here for a while." You can't just write a food safety plan. You have to really understand the operations and what everybody's positions are. And so when you start going through that, you learn that it's, it, there's a lot of that cultural breakdown where people don't understand what it takes.
They want something done, and then they'll figure out how to do it, and that's really where I've had to push back and say, "I can't put my name on that. I can't just write something for you and hope that you can adhere to it." So-
[00:24:37] Matt: Francine, you have to tell the story about the job posting you saw
[00:24:40] Francine: I was just...
They emailed me. It wasn't a posting. They emailed me, remember? Is that what you're talking about? I was just sitting here thinking the exact same thing. I got an email a couple years ago. It was like they wanted HACCP certifications, just the certificate. "Just print them and send them to [00:25:00] me. Yeah, I'll pay you.
Just print them and
[00:25:02] Matt: send them to me." But in the, in the email it was, like, very specific. Yeah. "We don't need you to come on site. We don't need any SOPs or logs or anything like that. We just need the certificate." "
[00:25:11] Francine: We just want the certificate." "
[00:25:13] Matt: How much is it gonna cost?" "
[00:25:14] Francine: How much is that?" Really? And I read it multiple times.
You emailed the wrong person.
[00:25:21] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:25:22] Matt: Okay. So Michelle, on the food safety culture side, 'cause we just had a whole- Oh, yeah ... conversation about leadership. Yeah. Anybody who wants to go look at that, look at the LinkedIn Live. So on the food safety culture side, though, obviously from the start of your career in the '90s in food all the way up to now, I mean, nobody was even talking about food safety culture.
We're just trying to figure out what food safety is, right? Like, wait, food safety came from NASA? Like, HACCP came from NASA, and now there's-
[00:25:50] Michelle: Pillsbury? Yeah.
[00:25:52] Matt: We're not in space. We don't have to worry about this. And then the FDA guidelines of GAP and GAP came out in '98. So I [00:26:00] mean, you were, before you were doing stuff in food, you and Francine both before that, what have you seen and, obviously from the time you started it's gonna be very different, but over the years, what have you seen in terms of food safety culture, like we all know that you have a food safety culture, whether that's good or bad, ignorant or informed, whatever.
Where are you seeing this go? The companies that, say, have a bad food safety cultureship, bad ownership, and then versus companies that have good food safety cultureship, good ownership, leadership, and that type of stuff. Like, where... Are you seeing, like, a morph of this? Are you actually seeing companies really starting to grasp this and understand it, or is it still like it was 10, 15 years ago?
[00:26:44] Michelle: You know, 10 or 15 years ago I would say- That people were more interested in learning. And now there are still great companies that are ahead of the game. Obviously, we know FSMA 204 has been [00:27:00] lagging, but there are companies that are jumping on board with that. And I'll say that I've interviewed with so many companies, and that was always one of my questions.
Where are you, you know, on certain things? And so there are companies out there, but I think the gap is widening between- Mm-hmm ... companies that do it really well, and then companies that are, like, in reactive mode, where they say, "I've got a compliance team, I've got lawyers, and I'm just gonna let them deal with it."
And they're not on board. I feel like it's really starting to divide. There are some companies that just wanna do the bare minimum, and they're not going to fix it until the health department tells them they need to fix it. And sometimes we know, as Francine has said, the health [00:28:00] department doesn't always say it.
And so my worry is that some of these companies, they want more products, less labor, that money goes into marketing, whatever it may be, and then food safety's over here. And I think that that's what inspired me to start doing the podcast. You know, my hope is to provide platforms for people, but I also want not just to reach food safety professionals, I really wanna reach the CEOs, the CFOs, the COOs.
I want them to hear. I am all on board with your innovation, great ideas, feeding the public, making it a near restaurant experience, but being able to take this prepared food home or have it delivered or however you choose to do it. [00:29:00] But we have to keep in mind that just as we worry about the safety of our employees when it comes to pallet jacks and on-the-job safety, we have to also keep in mind our consumers.
And so I really am trying to voice out to those executives to understand, because I do see there are some gaps.
[00:29:27] Francine: So what do you think has changed in the last 10 or 15 years?
[00:29:32] Michelle: Technology. Technology, technology has rushed a lot of it. And I say rush, I mean that the ideas that are coming at the top, because of technology, those ideas are able to roll out faster.
[00:29:51] Intro: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:52] Michelle: And because they can roll out faster, it doesn't mean that food safety is always able to keep [00:30:00] up, because food safety doesn't always have the same technology that operations has. So you can see some operations still have paper logs, but you'll have this wonderful point of sale at the front and all these wonderful things when you walk into a place, and it looks beautiful in the customer's eye.
But then behind the scenes, it's a whole different scenario. And I think technology has played a part of that, but I also believe that... And I don't have this answer, but I, I somehow business has just been, it's go, go, go. I remember when I first started out, it was you have to stay relevant, you have to keep up, you have to keep going, you have to keep pushing out ideas.
And this is from the business side. And for food safety professionals, if you're not in those meetings- You miss out. And so if you're not getting invited in those [00:31:00] meetings, that business continues, and I see food safety just not always getting invited into those meetings.
[00:31:06] Matt: So I think I understand, and I'm, I was gonna kind of reiterate in like a bullet-pointed version of what you're saying.
Technology is allowing product innovation to go from concept to creation in marketing and sales much faster now.
[00:31:21] Michelle: Yes.
[00:31:22] Matt: Through that process, the safety and qu- quality side of things, quality is probably gonna be there because they want to create a quality product, but the safety aspects of it might not be there.
So you could figure, you can line up your suppliers, you can line up your products, you can line up your formulation with all the software and all that stuff really fast. And then you can get quality suppliers with COAs, all this stuff, for whatever formulation you want. They got everything. They got the GFSI audits.
They got all the stuff ready to go. Those suppliers are there. And you can get cruddy suppliers, but a lot of the suppliers can give you whatever product they want, whatever ingredient you want from the same [00:32:00] place, pretty safe, blah, blah, blah. But the process with the co-man or process from you processing the product at your own facility, whatever, that there could be some safety issues that are not being tracked because it's moving so fast that you're not looking at all the different risks.
[00:32:18] Michelle: That's exactly right, and you did a great job at putting that into bullets than I did. One thing that I've seen is great equipment on site, great technology, but now it's time for a recall, and the only way that Class I recall is getting out is through an email. Where's the technology in that? And when that goes out to 600 locations- Across the country, how do you follow up with that?
[00:32:52] Matt: We've had Roger from Recall InfoLink here on a lot 'cause his software's-
[00:32:56] Michelle: Yeah ...
[00:32:57] Matt: takes a lot of that thinking out and that follow-up and [00:33:00] all that stuff because it's so innovative, and yeah. Or, you know, they talk about mock recalls all the time.
[00:33:06] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:33:06] Matt: While it's doing that once a year, and then trying to remember what to do in a crisis are two very different
[00:33:13] Michelle: things.
Totally different. Yes. Totally. And it's also just
[00:33:18] Francine: with labor,
[00:33:19] Michelle: operations is cutting their labor lean. And when you have people working an overnight shift, and they're expected to do their job, and they're only allocated so many labor hours, then you get a truck that comes in, and they're the only person there, and they've got to stop what they're doing and check in that truck.
Nobody's checking in temperatures. Nobody's doing that. And ask me how I know, 'cause I'm that person that follows, I'm like the secret stalker. I follow the distribution trucks. I'll go in at any time. I'll find out the routes, and go [00:34:00] in and, and watch the process because if it doesn't come in the back door, if it doesn't come in safe, it's not going out safe.
First line of defense at retail, besides your supplier verification program, but when you actually look at that supplier verification program, see how it's being delivered, we already know. And so when I ask the driver, "Hey, everything here is at 50 degrees," and he's like, "Oh," and packs up and leaves. Yeah.
And there are actually protocols where you cannot return the product. You can't refuse it You have to take it and request credit and, you know, when you have stores, "I can't use this product? I've got... Now, well now what am I gonna sell?" And so when you go to the business side of it, things are getting tighter, and we have to be involved in that.
[00:34:57] Francine: Well, and there are not just that side of the [00:35:00] labor, but the labor pool has changed as well.
[00:35:03] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:35:04] Francine: A lot. Yeah. And the loyalty of the labor pool has changed. You know, it used to be you hired an employee and they'd be there for long term if you treated them well and paid them well. Yeah. That's not the case any longer.
It
[00:35:17] Michelle: doesn't. Everybody's replaceable. Everybody's replaceable. There really is no loyalty. Loyalty was kind of gone when the pensions left. When the pensions left, that's when you really stopped seeing the loyalty and, and that's, you know, that's not true. Like, H-E-B, their loyalty is incredible, and I, and I can say that.
When I left, I left because I wanted to go... They were such a great company, but I knew that there were other things out there that I'd had never experienced, so I needed to go see some other reality moments. And man, I'll tell you, and I sit there and say, "Wow, I'll never work for another place like H-E-B," because they were really good, [00:36:00] and they still are very good.
But what a great place for me to grow up in my career. But since I've left, I mean, I'm always like, "
[00:36:08] Francine: Wow, wow, what?" I worked in quick service and had a retirement plan.
[00:36:14] Michelle: Oh, did you really?
[00:36:15] Francine: 100%. I had great insurance. I had great vacation-
[00:36:19] Michelle: Wow.
[00:36:19] Francine: Yeah ... plans. I had an awesome retirement plan. My benefits were... And I was paid incredibly well.
[00:36:26] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:36:27] Matt: That's why I moved to Starbucks in college. My wife and I got married, we were in college, and I was like, "Oh, I need insurance."
[00:36:35] Francine: People- It's a great company ... yes.
[00:36:36] Matt: So I went to Starbucks and then became manager. Same thing, it was a retirement plan, insurance, and all that stuff. It was great.
[00:36:43] Michelle: That's how I started leaving the restaurant business.
I had two young kids. I, I was working too much in the restaurant management, so I just said I want an easy job and I want insurance. And I had no idea that that would have become a 16-year career for me there. [00:37:00] And I left with five weeks of vacation and... When my husband... My husband worked for the same company.
He was there for 13. And he's in the meat and seafood business, so he did that. You know, when he had knee surgery They brought food. When I had surgery, they brought food. They delivered it. Such a great company
[00:37:22] Matt: There are some other retailers- There are ... that are Publix, Wegmans, et cetera, et cetera, that are just-
[00:37:26] Michelle: Absolutely.
[00:37:27] Matt: Yeah.
[00:37:28] Michelle: Yeah. I did learn a lot there, and I learned about culture, and I learned about... There's nothing like having a good beat down, right, when you're in your career of- When I say a beat down, it's, I was always at a, a mid to senior level management. I was not a director, but I was in the room with the executives because of the division that I worked for was the specialty foods.
And the owner, one of the owners of the company, because it's a privately owned company, at one point, you know, I reported directly to him, and then I [00:38:00] reported indirectly to him when I started reporting to the quality assurance, corporate quality assurance in San Antonio. But I was in those meetings, and it took me probably five years to, five to six years to gain their trust and their confidence in me.
And I was somebody that they knew because I had come from operations. They trusted me, but I wasn't delivering the information in a way that they could understand. And so I learned a lot about how to gain their attention, and you said, Matt, on the Food Safety Exchange, was having meetings with the different leaders and stakeholders and finding where they're at and getting their buy-in before going in into a room and having those conversations.
It was a lot easier to do that. But I learned the hard way, so it was a lot of lessons learned [00:39:00] and, but some great ones. And when I left it was, you know, they were like, "Hey, why are you leaving?" And I said, "It's just because I wanna learn what I don't know." The grass isn't greener elsewhere, but there's a lot to learn, and boy, is there, and there still is.
[00:39:15] Matt: Yeah. Coming from H-E-B to anywhere, the grass is not gonna be greener.
[00:39:19] Michelle: And then you go to Mexico, we go to the mercados, and there's no refrigeration. It's open, and you've got beef. It was such an experience, I can't describe it. Learning how to work with the resources that you have. You don't have continuous running water where we lived, so water would run out And when you're in tourist season, that water is reserved for the tourists and their hotels.
So our water would run out, and we [00:40:00] would have to fill up buckets with rain. There is some creativity I couldn't even... But my food safety came in handy I'd just sneak
[00:40:10] Francine: into a hotel.
[00:40:12] Matt: Yeah. There's no way my wife would do that. I love camping. I go camping with my boys, and sometimes my girls will join us, too.
And my wife's version of, like, camping is a Courtyard.
[00:40:21] Michelle: Yeah. The perspective was incredible because the refrigeration there is not what it is here, and we didn't have air conditioning where we lived, and we were on the coast, and we had the nice breeze, but it's 86 degrees year-round. I really got tired of the sun, but my-
[00:40:41] Matt: And that's coming from Texas.
[00:40:43] Michelle: Yes.
[00:40:44] Matt: When people from Texas complain about the heat, oh, it must be
[00:40:46] Francine: bad.
[00:40:47] Michelle: I just was so tired of a sunny day. Our refrigerators, we put our food in there, and it, it, it's got a short shelf life because that refrigerator is not holding where it [00:41:00] should, and neither are the refrigerators in the cases in the supermarkets.
So everything was- So
[00:41:06] Matt: while you were in Mexico, were... You were doing food safety consulting while you were in Mexico?
[00:41:11] Michelle: No, I was not. I would fly to the States and do some, but what I was really doing was I had a little side gig where I was a special events coordinator for US companies, but I would do global.
Like, I'd help them set up events in Ecuador, Mexico. Because I was such a traveler, I understood all the logistics, and I had done that in my past when I was in restaurant, catering special events. So carried that with me to Mexico and, and that was a lot of fun. I got to do a lot of travel and get paid for it
[00:41:45] Matt: That's pretty cool.
It's so much easier to work with someone with a broad amount of experience in different things because we were talking about last hour on your podcast that the world, a lot of times food [00:42:00] safety professionals think of the world as very black and white. There is a whole lot of gray. Like, there are definitely things that are black, and there are definitely things that are white.
And a lot of times it's like fitting that round peg in that square hole. That's where the gray area comes in. This is what is, needs to be done, but how do we get to that given the, the facility and the constraints and all that stuff? And so having a broad experience in a lot of different things I think helps get that done.
[00:42:26] Michelle: It's about perspective. And so I didn't realize, I came back to the United States and I turned that faucet on and turned it off right away. Do what you gotta do and turn it off. Do not waste the water. And there were so many things that I did, and I adapted to that environment, 'cause we were there for three years, and we didn't have a car.
We learned how to ride public transportation, we learned Spanish, we hung out with the locals. A lot of people will gravitate towards your fellow Americans or the Canadians, and we [00:43:00] did, but we really made a conscious effort to... We'll never be a local because we never experienced the hardships that they do.
You could walk by, and it was incredible. There's this one corner, and you see a tarp. It's people living. There's no floors, there's no walls. They have a covering. They have hammocks. They've got their little butane stoves. But you know what they have? They've got a 100-inch TV with a satellite dish so they can watch their soccer.
Yeah. That's what's important to them. And I would walk by and I was like, "Can I just stick my nose in the fence? I wanna see what y'all are cooking . I wanna know how you're doing it." Being there for three years without a car, walking, and seeing how people live and how things are done, it just brings me a whole different perspective on life [00:44:00] and, and my work, and really Why we do things here the way we do.
[00:44:06] Francine: I've always said if you want to find out how spoiled we are as Americans, you need to visit another country. Yeah,
[00:44:12] Matt: 100%. '
[00:44:13] Francine: Cause we are incredibly spoiled.
[00:44:16] Michelle: Yes. And
[00:44:16] Francine: we don't know how spoiled we are.
[00:44:19] Michelle: Yes. Incredibly spoiled. And it was really important to go there and just not be flashy. We just blend in. It was great, and I felt really- Yeah,
[00:44:31] Matt: I send my teenagers to different high school.
[00:44:34] Michelle: Oh, yeah
[00:44:34] Matt: Like, but whatever trip that comes up or whatever that they can go to a different country. But I have a son who didn't want to go to a different country, but wanted to go to New York City. And I was like, "Well-
[00:44:45] Michelle: Perfect ...
[00:44:45] Matt: same thing. It's a different country." Yes. You could
[00:44:48] Michelle: spend-
[00:44:48] Matt: It is ... a couple weeks there.
That's fine. That's a different country.
[00:44:51] Michelle: But well, learning how to ta- use the public transportation there- Oh, yeah ... the first time I went to visit my dad, he's like, "No, you're gonna fly [00:45:00] into New Jersey, and then you're gonna get on," and he gave me all these directions, and he said, "I'll meet." And I'm like, "Oh, you're gonna come meet me?"
"No." I had to figure it out, how to get from New Jersey to Manhattan through-
[00:45:11] Francine: Trains running ...
[00:45:12] Michelle: sink or swim. But those were the best experiences. They really are. And my husband and I came back, and I think because of that trip, we've never really been the same. It would be so nice to have that stable corporate job, and we're just a little bit too rogue.
But the nice thing is, is that I do have an open mind, so when companies say, "Oh, I would like to do this," it's like, "Well, let's talk about this." Before you say no, you have to hear 'em out. If somebody will come up with an idea and they just don't know how to relay it in a way that... The first thing you should never say is, "Absolutely not You, you first have to walk through it and explain the risk and the why.
Yeah. Like, to get- And that's not entirely-
[00:45:53] Matt: Yeah ... that's not always true. You can definitely say absolutely no. Like, if someone's like, "Well, I have this new product."
[00:45:58] Michelle: Cold
[00:45:59] Matt: smoked
[00:45:59] Michelle: salmon. "I have this new pro-" Cold smoked salmon was [00:46:00] a no.
[00:46:01] Matt: Yeah, yeah, cold smoked salmon. Yeah, "I have this product that's been around for a very long time.
I wanna make it Americanized." And you're like, "Okay, well, what's the meat?" "Dog."
[00:46:11] Francine: I wanna serve this other duck that's in my freezer.
[00:46:14] Matt: You
[00:46:15] Francine: know, that
[00:46:15] Michelle: other duck.
[00:46:16] Francine: We need to get rid of that right... True story.
[00:46:19] Matt: That's what I was saying, like, there is black and there is white.
[00:46:21] Francine: There are no...
[00:46:21] Matt: No, you're right. But there's a lot of gray in the middle.
[00:46:25] Francine: The one thing that makes all of us unique is we actually have industry experience, so we understand. Yeah. Yes. And that, that's beneficial.
[00:46:34] Michelle: It is. It is.
[00:46:35] Francine: Something that a lot of people don't have, and it makes it harder to understand the perspective of the other side.
[00:46:42] Michelle: I truly feel that food safety professionals, whether that's your degree or not, at some point you should be learning those operations and working in them.
When I was in retail and I was a operations manager, I myself [00:47:00] worked, I volunteered, but I worked in every single department in the store, just so I could understand what that looks like. What is it like to slice cheese, slice ham, break down a slicer? What does that look like? So then when we're asking people to do things, we understand what that labor looks like, so.
[00:47:22] Matt: Yes. We could probably talk for hours and hours. I know, we could. I just wanted to have you back, but this was a great conversation, Michelle. Yeah. How do people reach you?
[00:47:31] Michelle: Well, you can reach me on LinkedIn. Yeah. I don't have a website right now, and so I am just heavily on LinkedIn, so you can find me LinkedIn slash Michelle dash Wollensing.
And you can also follow me on YouTube at The Food Safety Exchange by Safe Foods so that you can see live podcasts, which Matt and Francine were just on today. Yeah. So I'm about to post that on LinkedIn [00:48:00] when we hang up. It's already
[00:48:00] Matt: on LinkedIn.
[00:48:02] Francine: Two of us in one day.
[00:48:03] Michelle: This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much
[00:48:05] Matt: for having- Well, thank you so much, Michelle, and-
[00:48:09] Michelle: Thank you
[00:48:09] Matt: don't eat poop