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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:16] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, inspire [00:00:25] and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell. And today I'm chatting to Jason Rawding. Jason is the founder of My Beast, which is a service that helps organizations shape culture through humor and storytelling to foster a stronger sense of belonging and psychological safety.
[00:00:44] He runs workshops with schools, charities, and companies to boost connection, creativity, [00:00:50] and wellbeing. It was great to chat with Jason and there is lots to be learned about how we can use humor more intentionally in the workplace. In this episode, we discuss how humor can help. To create a sense of belonging, create psychological safety, and increase creativity, as well as Panama, Sainsbury's and squatting.
[00:01:09] Enjoy.
[00:01:14] [00:01:15] Jason, welcome. How are you? I'm doing very well. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Um, good to, good to speak with you. Yeah. So well thank you for joining me today. Um, I'm really looking forward to understanding a little bit more about the work that you do within your company. My Beast, which has the tagline, something around building psychological safety and creativity through humor and story [00:01:40] sharing.
[00:01:40] I mean, what's not to be intrigued about that. Just while we unpick that, I wonder, could you share a little bit? Of your story and how you came to be delivering gesture workshops and advising companies about using humor in the workplace? I can and I've, um. Because my professional and academic career doesn't really align with humor and story [00:02:05] sharing and and creativity.
[00:02:06] I have found it quite difficult to sort of promote my business and get in and, and, and create, create my beast, but. The reason I'm doing it is because I had, um, this sort of profound experience through a period of meditation about 10 years ago when I was like, pondering what to do with my life. And this idea just kind of popped into my head about, um, story sharing and using humor to, to connect with people.[00:02:30]
[00:02:30] I've almost worked backwards from having this end idea, doing all the research into humor, psychological, safety, belonging, employee engagement, and um, this kind of fits with my personality, even though it doesn't necessarily fit my experience academically and professionally. I've always loved humor. My mom and dad have, and, and brother have got a great sense of humor.
[00:02:52] Um, we've always enjoyed like playing [00:02:55] pranks on each other, and I love hearing people's stories, so it kind of suits my, uh, personality and my interests. But my background really is in, um, I, I got do, had a degree in it, worked in it. Um, I then taught English in Columbia for a couple of years before working in, um, in tech.
[00:03:16] In, in sales. So very varied, but [00:03:20] a common theme throughout my career has always been, um, humor and intentionally incorporating humor into my work. And, uh, yeah, but I about. Two years ago or so, I, I, um, I've been pondering and, and trying to think how I can apply my beast and how it, how it would work. And you know, that's been going on for about 10 years, but it's just in the last two years I really went for it.
[00:03:43] And, um, I put all my [00:03:45] effort and uh, resources into setting up my beast and I'm now full-time helping people to improve belonging, psychological safety and creativity. Through humor and story sharing. Love that. I love that it was a profound experience during a meditation session. I think that's just great.
[00:04:06] Actually, a previous podcast guest, uh, who's CEO [00:04:10] of A Trust said that his kind of notion to become CEO came to Minute A Dream. Um, and so, and, and, and the name actually for my, um, company. Before this one came to me in a yoga meditation. So there's obviously something about this kind of transcendental state that promotes creativity.
[00:04:30] There is, the way I see it is you create space within your mind [00:04:35] in, in trying to kind of calm all the thoughts, worrying around you create space in between those thoughts and then that's where. The creativity and organic ideas come from it's in that space. So yeah, it's that turning down of the noise, isn't it?
[00:04:49] And kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Turning down that noise. Okay, so just before we kind of dive into the humor, then, if we just talk a little bit then you talked about there about [00:05:00] belongings, psychological safety, creativity, and I think sort of in the education system. Um, we recognize they're incredibly important for our children and young people.
[00:05:09] We know it's really important for them to feel safe, um, and for them to have, um, a sense of belonging. Can you explain a little bit your thoughts around why belonging and safety are so important for the adults in the building as well? Well, [00:05:25] we have lost the art of belonging and group bonding in the workplace.
[00:05:32] Now this is apparent in the education sector with the teacher retention crisis, but there's also similar problems in other sectors in the, uh, corporate world, uh, in the. Prison service, for example. Uh, employee engagement is very low. Staff retention [00:05:50] is, um, an an issue across lots of sectors. So there are systemic problems in society, um, you know, big problems that, that, that each sector is facing in, especially, you know, in the education sector.
[00:06:02] But it's the foundation of group belonging. And a, a sense of connection and a sense of togetherness with your colleagues isn't there. Then we stand no [00:06:15] chance of solving these larger problems that we might be facing. We are hardwired as humans to prioritize social connection. That is what we care about.
[00:06:26] We care about our relationships with other people most, but our work. It's often, uh, it's very task and results focused. It's very, uh, it's based on [00:06:40] performance metrics, KPIs, and quite often the social connection aspects is not prioritized. In some organizations, there will be annual surveys, there may be quarterly offsites, but regular bonding.
[00:06:59] Is essential to create a, a sense of comradery and togetherness between [00:07:05] people. So how do we actually bond as, as human beings? We, um, as we evolved and as you will see in, uh, in nature documentaries, whether other primates we used to bond through grooming each other. Which is a one-on-one activity where we groom each other's fur, a, a, a, and and cleanse each other's bodies.
[00:07:24] Um, as we evolved and our group sizes increased to 150 [00:07:30] people, we had to develop new ways of bonding, which, uh, involved larger numbers of people. Uh, and we evolved, uh, to bond through laughter, singing, dancing, feasting. Which is eating and drinking socially and emotional storytelling. Now, there are other ways as well, in which we [00:07:55] can, um, in which we bond, but it's about this.
[00:07:58] Simultaneous thing that we are doing together as a group, like, like singing and dancing, for example, you know, we're doing something together. There's, um, case studies of, um, Japanese companies in the mid to late 20th century where colleagues were encouraged to exercise together in each morning, and they would do these [00:08:20] simultaneous movements and exercises together, which would release endorphins and, and would help each other, help people bond.
[00:08:27] They think that, among other reasons, obviously, but that reason, but, but that bonding helped to create this literally a lifetime loyalty, uh, with colleagues and with certain companies. Laughter is one of the quickest ways to release endorphins among a [00:08:45] group, uh, of people. Uh, and in fact, studies show that, uh, laughing helps us to, um, even increase our pain threshold.
[00:08:53] It has a very, very positive effect, um, on human beings. We're also 30 times more likely to laugh when we're in a group, when we're with other, other people. And so, um, we can harness. Laughter [00:09:10] and storytelling to help, um, people bond. We just need to tap into this reservoir of connection and endorphins, uh, to help us bond.
[00:09:22] And that's what I'm doing with my beast. I'm helping. Teams and organizations to intentionally incorporate humor and storytelling. One thing to note is that the laughter and [00:09:35] the humor has to be intentionally incorporated. Now, spontaneous humor and laughter is good, but ideally it needs to be deliberately incorporated into your weekly, uh, work life.
[00:09:53] This has a different effect. We, with this sort of bonding and um, this group bonding, [00:10:00] ideally it needs to be ritualized, which means that need, it needs to be regular and predictable. So that just kinda means that you're having, you know, 10 to 15 minutes, um, on a weekly basis where people meet and they spend some time for.
[00:10:18] Which is allotted for group bonding, which can be story sharing and creating, uh, humor. You know, I, I [00:10:25] spoke to, I'm, I'm working with a Danish company at the moment, and they sing e every Monday morning with each other, which is amazing. I was thinking about the list of the things that you said there, and obviously you started off by saying, you know, uh, our, you know, previously we would use grooming and I was.
[00:10:41] Certain that everybody listening breathed a sigh of relief, that you weren't gonna suggest that that, can you imagine that grooming amongst colleagues. But then on the [00:10:50] list was the singing and the dancing and the laughing and the feasting. And I would imagine that the laughter and the feasting are probably a little bit more.
[00:10:59] Palatable than singing and dancing for some people, although I'm all over that. I love the idea of singing together, but I think as, as well, British people are a little bit awkward. I'm not sure dancing and singing like sober in a staff room would be, uh, well, you know, [00:11:15] Tuesday morning at eight 30. Yeah.
[00:11:19] Yeah. I think there should be more of it. Yeah. Yeah. Should definitely be more of it. So before we kind of get into that sort of ways that we can intentionally use humor, um, and you know, you've obviously, um, spoken there about kind of some of the benefits of, of using humor. [00:11:40] But before we get into. I think that I read in a blog post that you've written saying that human can feel, humor can feel a little bit risky at work and maybes in leadership roles.
[00:11:53] And when we're thinking about kind of intentionally creating culture that it maybes feels like if we are seen to be, I'm gonna laugh, then we're not taking things seriously, or will it reduce [00:12:05] productivity? Or why can humor feel a little bit risky at work? So yeah, there, there's, there's a couple of different reasons for that.
[00:12:12] And, um, it was, it is been a bit surprising for me to, to, when speaking to people about humor over the last couple of years, um, there's recurring theme of fear. Fear surrounding humor. So one reason [00:12:30] is obviously inclusion. There's a risk of offense. A lot of people think what one person finds funny, another might not.
[00:12:37] And you, you don't. And humor has been used inappropriately in the past. Now that's a big reason and um, I'll come on to how we can overcome that. But the main reason is this sort of fear of people worrying if they are funny enough. And people [00:12:55] put too much pressure on themselves to be funny, which actually puts them off using it altogether.
[00:13:01] I've realized how personal humor is and, um, intentionally incorporating humor feels very risky for people because there's this fear of, you know, what if it doesn't land? What if no one laughs? What if. It's not funny. So that's a, a really big kind of concern for, for people Now, [00:13:20] I help, I help teams overcome both of these things, the inclusion aspect and the fear of failure by simply teaching them about what people find funny and why.
[00:13:33] And there are different types of humor as well. So the one that we kind of, uh, worry about is, uh, relates to the superiority. Category of humor. This states, this is a [00:13:45] theory that emerged throughout history of what we find funny and why. It's not a very good general theory, but it is a type of humor, and it all depends on the level of threats.
[00:13:57] Involved in, in, in how it lands. So at one end of the scale, you have very playful teasing with someone that you trust and have a close relationship with. This is where a bit of playful teasing can be a, a good way to [00:14:10] bond. It can be funny and you, and, um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a natural way of, um, of using humor with a close friend or colleague that you trust.
[00:14:20] Now, the other end of this scale is where someone is literally using humor to appear superior. And they are using sexist jokes, racist jokes, using it to intentionally bully someone, [00:14:35] uh, and, and, and use humor to threaten. Whereas it, as I mentioned this other scale, uh, the other end of the scale, it's not threatening whatsoever, so therefore it's more, it's funnier.
[00:14:43] So it all depends on the level of threat. Now obviously there's lots of nuance and gray area here. So what I do in my workshops and events is, um. The great British banter debate where I, um, I, I encourage people [00:15:00] to, uh, discuss teasing and banter and, um. You know, because we all know, we all like to tease and have good re don't mind being teased by some people, but we've all experienced, uh, negative, uh, effects of humor as well.
[00:15:15] So I just encourage the debate, how do we understand and how can we generally agree to some sort of tur guide or terms on, on, on when teasing and banter is appropriate. [00:15:25] I think, sorry, I just wanna jump in there, Jason. But I think I had that kind of as one of my questions because I think it's, you know, particularly pre prevalent in schools among teachers.
[00:15:36] I, I think, I think amongst the whole community, but I think also within our teenagers, this kind of, when they, when they challenged their responses, it was only banter. Um, yeah. And therefore, is it permissible? Yeah. [00:15:50] If, if it was only meant to be. A good laugh, but carry on. Tell us more about the theory of humor.
[00:15:56] Yeah. So as, as well you're going on, that, that comes up a lot. Pe you know, people hide behind this aspect of it being, um, banter. It's just banter. And then if you are, you, if you want to complain or, or raise something, it's like, are you being the fun police? And you're kinda stopping humor, but teaching people about this, the, this type of human and what it [00:16:15] is and, and, you know, can really help people understand it better and, and deal with it.
[00:16:19] So that's just one type of humor where whether there is a target to the humor and you know, in some cases a victim. But again, sometimes it, it, it's friendly. Other times not. So anyway, the, the other type of humor, which is inclusive, relates to the incongruity theory of humor. This is where we are laughing [00:16:40] at.
[00:16:40] Unexpected and absurd aspects of human nature, life itself. And we exaggerate things to the point of absurdity, and we are, um, you know, creating sort of imaginary, ridiculous scenarios or situations that that kind of thing is very creative. This type of humor is inclusive. [00:17:05] And by understanding its ingredients, uh, which are unexpectedness, absurdity, relevance, and non-threatening, we can understand how we can incorporate it into our work.
[00:17:19] Now, we will enjoy this type of humor naturally, all the, all the time. Anyway, it's just helpful to kind of have an idea of why we are finding certain things funny and understanding this [00:17:30] unexpectedness and absurdity. Which kind of helps us to have a better awareness of humor and you can sharpen your own wit by, you know, the way I kind of describe it is learning the grammar of a language helps you to speak it more fluently.
[00:17:49] You know, the grandmother structure is, is helpful, and it's a little bit like that with humor. If you can kind of [00:17:55] start to have an idea of this, how do these different ingredients blend with each other? You know, where's the relevance? You know, there's the unexpectedness. Where's the absurdity? And this, there's the non-threatening aspect as well that helps you to sharpen your own wits and feel more confident to incorporate humor.
[00:18:13] Yes. I suppose it's about kind of, um, not shying away from talking about maybe, uh, [00:18:20] unexpected events that have happened or the absurd, um, and using them more as a form of storytelling. Um, would that be right? And kind of looking at them Absolutely. Rules of humor, if you like, um, that can actually then bond and, and bring teams together.
[00:18:36] Absolutely. Yeah. So I wonder, does that kind of lead us on to, you know, you talk about encouraging people to also be more open about their [00:18:45] failure, um, in order to improve psychological safety and a sense of belonging. Um, and that humor can play a role in that storytelling. Now if I'm right, what we're talking about here is the beast and um, I assume that's what inspired the name of your company.
[00:19:01] My beast. Absolutely. Yeah. Talk to me about the beast. So, um, A beast is an unexpected and [00:19:10] absurd experience that you later laugh about. So. The term beast. Um, I'm originally from Hull and I grew up using the term in this way with friends, and it describes an event. So you could say, for example, um, oh my God, I had a complete beast last night.
[00:19:24] Okay. Right. So it's these event, these experiences that cap's an unexpected and upset experience that at the time might feel a little [00:19:35] awkward, you know, maybe even a little embarrassing, but later. You look back on and, and the absurdity of it makes it into a good story and you look back and laugh. These stories are actually a really profound way to connect with people because firstly, you, uh, the, we incorporate the humor.
[00:19:51] It takes a bit of courage. To share a story like this, especially at work where we are often, uh, we think we [00:20:00] should project a successful image of ourselves and appear competent at all times. Um, so it takes a little bit of openness, perhaps a bit of vulnerability, and therefore courage to open up and share a story like this.
[00:20:13] But we all know now how important that openness is to, um, in, in connecting with people. And it combines empathy. Empathy is the gel that forms connections [00:20:25] between people. And when we empathize with someone, we don't necessarily empathize with the, the circumstances or the events. It's the person's feelings.
[00:20:37] That we're empathizing with and connecting with. So we have all had a beast. Everybody listening to this podcast has had many beasts. You and I have had lots of beasts, and we all know [00:20:50] exactly how it feels. Feels a little bit awkward, a little bit uncomfortable, and that is how we form empathy and a connection between people by empathizing, uh, with, and we can use these experiences and it's a sustainable strategy 'cause there are millions of beasts out there just waiting to be released.
[00:21:10] So I just encourage people to, um, tame the beast. [00:21:15] Which is, uh, choosing their story, uh, maybe improving some storytelling skills. Yeah. And then releasing the beast and, and also, you know, psychological safety. The foundation and the core part of psychological safety really is being open about mistakes and failure.
[00:21:30] Taking that interpersonal risk and opening up about. A mistake. That's how Amy Edmondson originally identified psychological safety. She found that, [00:21:40] um, medical teams, she was analyzing medical teams, and she found that the teams that. Made the most mistakes were the ones that were most high performing, and it was just that they felt most comfortable being open and honest about their mistakes in their team, their team culture, their team atmosphere.
[00:21:58] They felt more comfortable being open about failure mistakes. So through this. Being open about our own personal [00:22:05] experience, unexpected experiences we can have to foster psychological safety. You do know, of course, Jason, that the next question I'm gonna ask you is to, um, if you'd mind sharing one of your beasts.
[00:22:17] Yes. Yeah. And then hopefully Julie, you have a beast to share as well. You, you go first. Okay. So this happened when I was, um. I said I went to [00:22:30] Columbia, uh, a couple of, for a few years, a few years ago, for a couple of years. And at the beginning of the trip I did a bit of traveling and went to Panama and um, I was in Panama City and I was gonna get a night bus to the coast.
[00:22:45] And, um. It's boiling hot in Panama. It's like I'm right in the Caribbean and um, I am just wearing like [00:22:55] a t-shirt and shorts when I get on this, uh, bus. Like it's literally like 30 degrees at at night, even. And I get on my bus, buy my ticket, get on the bus, and when I sit down, I look around and everybody is wearing like thick coats, blankets, scarves, and I'm [00:23:20] like, you know, it looks like we're going on a skiing trip.
[00:23:23] I'm just sat there like absolutely baffled because, you know, I'm sat there in tea, it's boiling hot, and I'm sat there in a little t-shirt and shorts and I'm thinking, well, is it that cold where we're going? It can't be. I've seen the pictures. It's on the Caribbean coast. It, you know, it looks beautifully hot.
[00:23:41] And so I'm just sat there like, absolutely baffled, but [00:23:45] kind of settle in and get ready for my first, um, night bus in Latin America. So as we set off, we pull out the, uh, bus station, and as soon as we pull out, there's like this whirring sound, and suddenly the air con blasts on like full blast and drops the temperature to like five degrees.
[00:24:07] And I just immediately start kind of like shivering and it's like. [00:24:10] Freezing cold. And it is like this for the entire journey. It is like 11 hours and everybody else kind of gets all cozy and kind of nods off, goes to sleep. And I'm sat there for 11 hours, like freezing cold. And I realized that this, uh, you know, after my, um, my, uh, time there that.
[00:24:30] This is part of the culture. For some reason, this is, you know, there's not even any technical reason [00:24:35] about buses for some reason. Like they drop the temperature on these night buses. Uh, and that's why everyone, Dr. Like kind of, um, wears these like thick coats and, and hats and stuff. So I, um, finally get to our destination and jump off the bus, um, into the, uh, Caribbean heat and, um.
[00:24:55] Finally warm up like a, a lizard getting out from the night into the, into the [00:25:00] sun. And that was the major, major lesson I learned that, um, to not turn into a human ice cube on a night bus in Latin America, you've got to Dr. You've got to wrap up warm. I feel like you've given a bit of a community service announcement as well, uh, in case anybody does go to Panama.
[00:25:18] Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same thing across Latin America as well, like Yeah, it is a community service announcement. And, you know, [00:25:25] I, I wonder it's something to do with sleeping. What I wanna do now is Google why this is the case, but I'm wondering whether it's something to do with core temperature and being able to go to sleep.
[00:25:33] Um, yeah, I, I, um, googled it as well and it says, uh, one reason is that, um, it's easier to keep people cool and to get them to wrap up warm. And so just the culture has become that. They all accept that. Let's just. Have it as a really good kind of [00:25:50] cold temperature and wrap up instead of having it hot. And some people complain it's too hot.
[00:25:53] Anyway. Yeah. So that's my story. Have you got a beast to share? Okay, I have. So, full disclosure, um, Jason did ask me when we were just doing our kind of pre podcast chat chat, and he did ask me to think one and I kind of like. I kind of kept coming back to this same story and I can't believe I'm going to tell it, but here we go.
[00:26:14] I [00:26:15] think really it's a story of ego. That's what I've tried to distill it is, um, anyway, right, I'll tell the story. So for context, I taught in post 16 education for 26 years. And what that means is I am always bumping into ex-students from many years ago, um, or, or their parents, um. So that's kind of commonplace.
[00:26:39] So that's the [00:26:40] first context. The second part of the context, if you like, at the time of this incident, I'd just left my job at college. I'd set this business, um, and I'd left after many years at the same college. And a key detail is I do not go to the gym. Okay? Yep. So. I'm in our local Sainsbury's, [00:27:05] not like the big one, not like the big supermarket, just the tiny corner shop version.
[00:27:10] And I say that, I say that 'cause I think that's quite important because being humiliated in the way that I was in a smaller space feels a bit better. I'm not sure I would cook. Yeah, if this had been a big sainsbury, I think it would've been worse. So I go to the till and there's a young woman behind the [00:27:30] counter and she greets me really enthusiastically.
[00:27:33] She's smiling and she says, haven't seen you for ages. How are you? And I'm thinking, must be a former student. Can't quite remember her. But I smile and I say, oh, I've, I've, um, left now actually, that's probably why you hadn't seen me. Um, but I'm great. How are you? And she starts telling me, um, that she's gone to uni, she's studying this, that and the other.
[00:27:54] She's [00:27:55] really enjoying it, but that she isn't gonna the gym anymore. And I thought, well, that's a bit random, but okay. Um, and I sort of think, but I don't remember who she is anyway. Um, and maybe it's like, I don't know, maybe she was some gymnast at some point. So next time I go in, she kind of picks up right where we left off and she starts the conversation and she says, oh, so you've [00:28:20] left.
[00:28:20] Then have you gone to another gym? And I'm like totally thrown. But before I can answer, she starts talking again and she says, oh, I, you know, I left because I went to uni, but I'm trying to find a new one. And then she says, I just hope the teachers are as good as you. Now, admittedly, this would've been a really good [00:28:45] time to tell her.
[00:28:46] I think she was mistaken and that I'm not a gym instructor, never was not a gym teacher, but I didn't, so I just kind of smiled. Um, and then, you know, there was a big cue forming and I kind of left. The next time I went in, I was with my daughter, and by this point I realized that the [00:29:10] woman behind the till thought I was somebody else.
[00:29:12] She didn't think I was a psychology teacher from the college she thought. You know, I was somebody else. And so I said to my daughter, go to the till. You go to the till. And she was dead confused. And she was going, why, why do I have to go to the till? And I said, I think I'm being mistaken for a gym teacher.
[00:29:27] And my daughter was absolutely hysterical and she was like saying, yeah, but you're not mom. [00:29:35] Um, and I said, I know. And, and she said, well, why haven't you just told it? I said, I think I was quite flattered, um, that she thought I could be a teacher in a gym. So she go, which I know is mortifying. So she goes off to the till and I am like trying to sneak out the door, but it's only a small Sainsburys.
[00:29:56] And so suddenly this girl shouts at me. I've rejoined the [00:30:00] gym. Are you really proud of me? And like, I just panicked and I just shout. Yes, yes. And I was like, waving in and rung out the door. I dunno why I waved. I was totally over the top. Um, and like the door was just like telling everyone, she was going, oh my god.
[00:30:14] The, the lady in Sainsbury's thinks my mom teacher's class in the gym. And my mom's pretending that she does. So anyway, I go in [00:30:25] again, no daughter to hide behind and it's quite late at night. It's really quiet and I arrive. Mid conversation between, um, this girl and a colleague. So this story gets worse at this point.
[00:30:43] So the colleague is mourning that she's got a flat behind, okay. She's talked [00:30:50] about the bottom, and you know, they're having this. Sort of conversation and the girl's giving us some like training advice about exercises that she can do. You know, when you think you wish she unpicked this story anyway. No, no.
[00:31:05] Yeah. Keep going. I like it. Suddenly the girl behind the till like starts pointing at me and saying. She'll help. Help. She's amazing. [00:31:15] Sure. Some moves. Oh my gosh. And I was like, like, right. And I started saying someone like, oh, the advice that you're giving her sounds perfect. Um, but then before I knew it. I started demonstrating how to do squats
[00:31:37] and was like buy the chewing gum.[00:31:40]
[00:31:43] And I basically just pretended I was a gym teacher and, uh, could I have corrected it? Absolutely, I could have corrected it. Did I secretly enjoy being mistaken for a gym teacher? Yes, I did. Um, never been a gym go. So this, obviously I was super flattered that somebody thought that that could be the case.
[00:32:03] Am I mortified every time I go [00:32:05] back in? Yes. I try not to go in or send somebody else in, or I got Tesco's, um, instead, and I think I'm even more embarrassed about this story 'cause it wasn't that long ago. It's like, it's, and, and, and that's, that's my story, Jason. That's my beast. Julie, that is an amazing beast.
[00:32:27] Absolutely. Quality. Uh, [00:32:30] excellent story. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. It takes, it takes courage to share the beast. And, uh, ally, and I'm sure listeners appreciate, appreciate the story. Now, I'm interested to know, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions about, not, not necessarily that beast, but choosing your story.
[00:32:49] But me and your, your listeners maybe [00:32:55] haven't pretended to be gym instructors in Sainsbury's, but I know exactly. How you'll have felt, and we all have had these similar experiences. Now, those, there's some beautifully unexpected and absurd moments, and I, I like that story as well because there's, you know, twists and turns.
[00:33:15] But how, how did you find thinking, uh, about a beast? [00:33:20] Did it take you a while to, to, for one, to come to mind? Did you have a few that you, that, that, that came to mind and then you selected that one? Or what was the experience of. Firstly being asked to share a beast. And then how did you feel about that? And then also what was it like choosing your story?
[00:33:38] I think first of all, I went through like edited versions of stories [00:33:45] that like maybes weren't so. Like revealing, because if I was listening to that story, I would just go, what on earth were you doing? Why, why didn't you just say, eh, I'm sorry. I think you've mistaken me for somebody else. So I, I like, I, I probably tried to self-censor in my first thinking about stories, but that one kept popping up and I kept thinking, actually that's a [00:34:10] more vulnerable, that's a more honest.
[00:34:13] Authentic kind of moment where, yeah, I just thought in the spirit of things, that felt a better choice. But I'm not gonna lie, it wasn't the one I was gonna go for. I was definitely gonna self-censor, um, and probably go for a more safe story. Yeah, I, uh, yeah. Good. Yeah, I think that can happen. I, um, I, I have another [00:34:35] story which I, um, sometimes share, which is where, um, I was on a, uh, my first day of a new job and I was, uh, it was the first like, um, time I, I'd ever flown for work and it was this new company in Germany.
[00:34:49] I'll just quickly run through it. I won't kind of go through the whole story, but I go to the airport, buy myself some breakfast, and then I kind of almost miss the flight. So I'm like completely [00:35:00] panicked, get to the plane and, um, it's completely full. I literally almost miss it. And as I sit down to sort of with this like huge sigh of relief to um, you know, that I've finally made the flight, I hear a loud, uh, pop.
[00:35:15] And even though I'm late, we're about to sell. I'm like, I have to stand up and be like, what the hell is that? And I turn around and look and I have sat on the granola yogurt pot I'd bought from [00:35:25] Pratt as my breakfast, and it's exploded all over my ass, all over the sea, all over my trousers. Um. And, uh, I end up like, you know, I feel like a little teenage boy that shouldn't be flying on his own.
[00:35:38] Um, so that's another, uh, embarrassing story. But I, I think as well, like the nature of unexpected and absurd experiences, there is a bit of embarrassment there. [00:35:50] Right? And, and this is the thing because some, for some people sharing a story like this, and I, I, I shared that one just then, because that's obviously a bit more embarrassing than the bus story, I think.
[00:35:58] But people are, there's a fear of embarrassment. With, with people, especially at work. And, and this is another way of that, that I'm trying to encourage people to share these stories because it's OI think we worry about being embarrassed a bit [00:36:15] too much. We make ourselves feel embarrassed way more than other people make us feel embarrassed, if that makes sense.
[00:36:23] Like, you know, I love, I, I, you know, I like you for sharing that story. It's a brilliant story and I like you more for hearing it, whereas we. When we, we put pressure on ourselves to be, appear competent and appear, you know, successful. And we, we make ourselves [00:36:40] feel embarrassed way more, I think, than other people.
[00:36:43] Make us feel embarrassed. So, yeah, I think, um, there's that aspect of these stories, but. The reason we find them funny, the reason we like them is because of the unexpected and absurd nature of events. That's why we find them funny, and that's the kind of the core part of humor. So yeah. Great, great story.
[00:37:00] Thank you for sharing that. Oh, thank you for asking me. But it, but it's true, isn't it? I'm thinking, [00:37:05] but, and I'm not sure whether it's age, I'm not sure what it is. The more secure you feel, the easier it is to share, which is exactly the point of the work that you're doing, is that, yeah, you can flip that on, on its head and the more that you share in theory, the kind of more security and safety you generate within Absolutely.
[00:37:26] Your team. Yeah. Ab absolutely. The higher levels of psychological [00:37:30] safety, because what you just did is you took a risk, you took an interpersonal risk, and the essence of psychological safety is. Feeling safe to take interpersonal risk without the fear of judgment or ridicule. So it's like opening up, I'm telling you this story, um, and you respond well, and we all thank each other.
[00:37:51] And that's a big part of the beast sharing and part of my strategy is this, it's [00:37:55] a celebration of story sharing, how you respond to people sharing is important. And you know, I encourage a big celebration, round of applause, everything you know. You know, saying thank you for sharing is, is, is good as well.
[00:38:08] So it's that practice of being open and creates more safety and makes people feel more open and likely to op, open up about concerns, mistakes, failure, or, you [00:38:20] know, and even, you know, and then obviously the, the big part is. People feel safe to open up about new ideas that they've got, you know, and that's where innovation and creativity comes from.
[00:38:28] Absolutely. And I can see it kind of being a leveler as well, kind of reducing that hierarchical nature, which it, you know, could be helpful as well in the setting, because to be able to come forward with ideas to be innovative. [00:38:45] You've got to feel safe and secure that it's okay to suggest upwards and to, you know, to do that.
[00:38:52] Maybe there's that, you know, creating a bit of a level playing fields every now and again. Um, it's probably a really good thing. So I can absolutely see how that works. So I, I often refer to Oliver Bergman. Oliver Bergman coined this phrase that we have 4,000 weeks. Um, and it was a book about time management.
[00:39:09] But [00:39:10] I suppose in that context we, if we all get 4,000 weeks, if we're lucky, there are only so many Mondays within those 4,000 weeks aren't there. And I suppose recognizing that that time is finite and that really running through our lives, wishing every week away that, you know, five seventh of our weeks is spent morning about kind of getting through them.
[00:39:34] I [00:39:35] kind of believe that those days need to be good too. That, you know, and as well as sort of creating this psychological safety as well as, um, praying this sense of belonging and, you know, fostering creativity. I think that being a bit more intentional about. Sheer can actually make those days count, can't it?
[00:39:55] Um, it's a way of doing that. So thinking about how we can use [00:40:00] human more intentionally, more strategically. Have you got any suggestions about how we can bring it into the workplace? Yeah. Um, yeah. I like what you, uh, said there about make creating a bit more enjoyment and joy throughout the, the week, uh, the working week as we spend so much time at work.
[00:40:17] So how can you deliberately incorporate more humor? So, as we've discussed, the key parts of humor are [00:40:25] unexpectedness and absurdity. You can manufacture moments of unexpectedness. Absurdity, for example, uh, a very basic example which I give is in a presentation. So you're doing a presentation and you have an agenda.
[00:40:39] At the beginning, you might reveal agenda 0.1. Then you reveal agenda 0.2, and then agenda 0.3 could potentially be something [00:40:50] completely ridiculous and absurd. That's just a very basic example of having unexpected creating unexpectedness and then adding in some absurdity and ridiculousness. One example, I did a.
[00:41:01] Workshop with a charity, um, the Prison Reform Trust on Tuesday. And we were talking about how to intentionally incorporate humor and, um, I asked them, how could you have intentionally incorporated humor in the last week [00:41:15] and the CEO. She said her her way was, um, just earlier in the day, they had revealed this new part of their wellbeing package.
[00:41:27] She thought they could have incorporated some absurdity into that in presenting what this wellbeing package is. Uh, some good news in there. What, what they were giving their staff, which is great, but they could have incorporated some absurdity [00:41:40] into that. You're only allowed to use this wellbeing in this way, or with, you're only allowed to use this with moonwalking moonwalking classes, or you're only allowed to use this, um, wellbeing for like deep sea diving, uh, exhibitions, you know, something like ridiculous like that.
[00:41:59] Completely a moment of surprise and absurdity. So it's down to people to think [00:42:05] in their working week, how can they. How can they do that? So, yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose the, those opportunities is, they can, you know, be from a leadership in terms of a leadership style.
[00:42:20] I know that you've worked with the Maritime Trust, haven't you? You've worked with Nick Osborne. Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And they're very intentional, aren't they? [00:42:30] They are, yes. Yeah. So worked with, uh, yeah, Nick Osborne and the Maritime Academy Trust. And, uh, Nick does a great job of intentionally using humor.
[00:42:38] He does lots of, uh, posts on LinkedIn about, um, about working as a, as a teacher. But still, you know, you know, in that workshop it does take, I did a workshop with the head teachers of the Maritime Academy Trust, and it does take a moment for people to think. Because often it's like, [00:42:55] well, okay, we, we just enjoy humor spontaneously.
[00:42:57] And you know, the Nick and the Maritime Academy Trust are doing a good job of using humor. People often think, well, I'll just, I'll, I'll just hate to have a laugh when it happens. You know, which is great. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's really, that's good. But deliberately and intentionally incorporating it is a bit different and has more of a powerful effect, and that takes a bit more thinking.
[00:43:18] It's also a little riskier. [00:43:20] Um, people might feel a little, uh, vulnerable doing that, but that's why it's more powerful because it shows intense. You can also create some sort of regular and predictable aspect of, of humor that way. So yeah, really enjoyed working with, um, the Maritime Academy Trust. Yeah. I think one of the things that I like that they do is that kind of beginning of meetings where they do a, [00:43:45] oh, I should, does pineapple belong on pizza?
[00:43:47] Or they do kind of like a starter activity. Yeah. That just allows for people to have a good natured kind of humorous. Discussion, um, that often evolves. And I, I just think that's kind of a really lovely way because you are absolutely right there. You know, many organizations will have, teams will have [00:44:10] clusters where humor is spontaneous and, and trying to force it might feel a little bit like, well, like forced humor's never gonna be funny.
[00:44:18] But it's not, it's about forcing, it's about being intentional to create spaces for that. To happen as well. Yeah. And we did the, um, the, the, the, the mybe workshop, um, just before the summer holidays. And, um, Nick, uh, [00:44:35] was very brave and he did what I encourage people, trusts to do as, as well as, so you've got the weekly story sharing, but for a trust, for example, a larger organizations where they may want to create a sense of belonging across.
[00:44:49] Locations across regions, across different organizations, across schools. Nick, uh, recorded his beast. Um, and then we, uh, sent it out [00:45:00] to the, to the head teachers with the title of his story. And then the, um, the deputy CEO, um, Matthew, um, he just sent me his story, um, just over the summer holidays. So we'll, we'll send that out as well for people.
[00:45:15] So this kind of gives. Teams as well, like, um, yeah, helps to create that sense of connection across, uh, across an organization like a trust. I love that. [00:45:25] And that takes away, doesn't it, that pressure, I think you maybe said it before, but some people maybe's listening, don't think of themselves as naturally funny.
[00:45:32] You know, you've got Liu thinks well actually, but I'm not that person. But actually. It isn't about being able to tell jokes, is it? It's not about that. It's about looking for those kind of, it's the unexpected. It's the absurd. It's the storytelling. [00:45:50] Yeah. And, and research shows as well. What, what's more important actually, and this is particularly relevant for leaders who, who obviously as, as people progress up, uh, the seniority ladder, the pressure and responsibility.
[00:46:05] Might make it a bit more difficult for to, to find room for humor, but what's more, what research shows, what's more important than being funny is simply signaling that you have a [00:46:15] sense of humor. So just noticing what's funny, appreciating these unexpected moments is important. So don't, people don't need to worry about being the most hilarious person in the room, but the easiest way to access and release.
[00:46:29] Comedy is through these stories, everybody has had a beast. And um, that's quite an easy way, I think, for leaders to, um, to, to [00:46:40] use comedy, to connect with their staff. Yeah. And to be a good listener, as you said, and to be a good audience. Yeah. Um, I often, somebody once described my, um. My sister as she laughs easily.
[00:46:52] She's great to tell a story too, because you get that feedback and, and, and that is what we want, isn't it? And that kind of, you know, it's not just the storytelling, is it? It's the. It's the responding and being the listener [00:47:05] as well, isn't it? It is, yeah. And it's the celebration of the story, celebrating the, the courage to open up and share a story like that.
[00:47:14] Um, that's a great trait by the way. Being a good someone who laughs easily. I like that. But um, but yeah, it's about how you respond and, and celebrate and, and, and. It's communal story sharing, uh, which we're celebrating. Love that, right Jason? [00:47:30] We always finish our podcast in the same way by asking our guests to share with us some words of wisdom.
[00:47:36] So if you had no, no pressure here, um, but you made me do the best. So, um, if you had to suggest one kind thing that our listeners could go and do for themselves today, what would it be? One kind thing for themselves. I, I, okay. What I like to do [00:47:55] sometimes, uh, this, I think this is quite a good thing, is to think back to your cell, your younger self, who was maybe, uh, you know, 10, 20 years ago.
[00:48:05] And if you could imagine how your younger self would be. Proud to see where you are now. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's gorgeous. A bit of perspective. Yeah. Love that. Thank you, Jason. Yeah, [00:48:20] it's been excellent. Joy, thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.