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Nilah Magruder is an absolute joy and an uber-talented author and artist. She was the first Black woman to write for Marvel, illustrated all of the Heroes of Olympus covers for Rick Riordan’s books, and worked extensively in animation. Not to mention the books that she is the sole creator of, which have proven to be legendary in my home.
Every hero has an origin story—even the graphic novelists who create them!
Nilah Magruder's Origin StoryÂ
Jarrett: Nilah Magruder! How are you?
Nilah: I'm doing pretty good. How are you?
Jarrett: Hangin' in there. Nilah, you will forever and ever be iconic in my home because your picture book, "How to Find a Fox" has been read so many times. So many times. In our home that it is held together by like scotch tape and like bubble gum.
Our son, we must have read that so many times.
Nilah: Oh my God.
Jarrett: Huge home run, pal. And I remember we met at Comics Crossroads in Ohio and we were tabling next to each other and, like we just were chatting the whole day and I'm always looking for something to bring home to the kids to make up for being gone.
And wow that book, man, I'm telling you like, iconic like that, that we will read that. I will read that to my grandkids, my wife and I will be reading that to our grandkids someday. So thank you for stop and a chat with us. But of course I what the show is all about of
course is about getting to know how creative people in comics got to be doing what they're doing.
And so I like to start at the very beginning cuz I, I love the idea and I also love the idea of imagine. A young author, an artist and getting to, to hear those stories directly from some of your favorite creators. My first question for you and it might really be the only question I ask and then we're gonna get into a conversation, but what was life like for you as a kid?
What was your home like? What was your family set up? What kind of art and stories were you consuming? What sort of laid the groundwork to create Nilah Magruder?
Nilah: My home life as a child, I grew up in a house in the woods in a small community back in a time where it was largely forest and largely rural.
And I think that had a lasting impact on how. I think visually in how I view story, the sort of stories that I'm interested in. A lot of the things I was interested at interested in as a kid were very pastoral and natural. I loved anything featuring animals and, honestly, I was isolated for a lot of my childhood.
This is something that you and I have in common. I had an alcoholic parent and as a kid, I didn't like to bring friends home because then they would see my dad and, whatever state that my dad was in, it was really unpredictable. I never quite knew what I was bringing friends into. So I didn't, bring friends here very much.
And I didn't go to friends' houses very much. And so a lot of my time was spent at home, but we were surrounded by this woodland, all of these trees and animals and so much nature. And that's really where I spent my time as a kid. Now, what I was interested in, like what I was ingesting, we had a small video rental store in the community, and this was long before Netflix.
This was even before Blockbuster. We didn't have a Blockbuster within driving distance. I'm not even sure if Blockbuster existed back then. And so we had this local mom and pop rental store and they would bring in videos from all over the world. A lot of imported… movies and television series.
And as a kid, I was interested in anything animated. If it was a cartoon, if it was drawn, I was there. And so like any cartoon that they had, I'd be like, mom, can we get this please? And I remember once I showed her one video that I hadn't watched yet, and I was like, mom, can we get this? And she looked at it, she looked at the cover and was like, no.
And she put it back and we never spoke of it again. and years later, like I was an adult on the internet and I saw this title called when the wind blows and I was like, oh, that's familiar. And I looked at the summary. I looked at the art from the movie and I was like, oh my God, that's it. That's that one movie that my mom wouldn't let me watch.
And so when the wind blows is a British animated film about nuclear fallout, And it's about it's about this couple. I think it's like a rural couple and there's this big catastrophe in England. And the government sends pamphlets out to everyone and is every, they're just like, don't panic everyone. It's fine.
Just stay at home. And so basically this couple they're older, they're very trusting. They're like the government knows what's best. So we'll just stay home. And eventually radiation reach reaches them and they get sick and die.
So…
Jarrett: what a prude! What a prude! What a…
Nilah: I know wouldn't let me. And then another time she was also a teacher and one day she brought home the animated Animal Farm.
Jarrett: Wow. Yeah.
Nilah: And, my thing is animals, of course. And she looks at me and she's do not watch this. And then she leaves it out.
Jarrett: Oh…
Nilah: And so one day when she wasn't there, I popped it in the VCR and watched it. And I think I was like nine or 10 at the time. And I loved it. So all that to say when I was a kid, I would just watch anything.
And so I was, and we had this rental store that would bring over anything. And so I was getting to watch animated movies from Japan and England and Russia and Canada, like Canada had a really great experimental animation program that was supported by the government.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And so they were producing just like wild animated shorts and half the time, I didn't understand what I was watching, but because it was moving pictures, moving drawings, I was fascinated.
And a lot of the stuff that I look back on that I loved as a small child, it's very experimental and dark. And then I lived in this woodland that was also creepy, a lot of animals lived here and also a lot of people in the community were like fascinated cuz our home was situated secluded.
And so people would come drive through late at night just to, see the house or they'd, walk through, like it was a public park here.
Jarrett: Oh.
Nilah: So I had this experience as a child of just like constantly our space just constantly being invaded by strangers. And it was like scary, you're in bed at night….
And headlights reflected on your wall. Yeah. And you're a little kid and you're just like, oh my gosh.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: I have this, like I have this just this little, knot from my childhood, that's very, just creepy and wild and mysterious. And then I write children's books.
Jarrett: Yeah. It's not easy to be a creative kid who then you when you have worries, because then your creativity, which I've only realized now as an adult, like your imagination really creates scenarios in your head.
Nilah: Yeah!
Jarrett: And I wanna point out to the listeners that it's remarkable. That you had access to VHS tapes of cartoons from other countries in that time period. Sometimes when I'm book touring and I talk to readers and they said; "did you love anime when you were a teenager?" And I didn't really have access to it.
I grew up in a suburban, urban area and my rental shop, which was another mom and pop rental shop. They didn't have that creative, curated collection. So how remarkable that, whoever it was that was down the street from you who had this, you know, who had an appetite for this flavor of creative cartoons, because otherwise you would've just been seeing like just Disney and nothing else.
That's, this kinda was the only game in town back then.
Nilah: Yeah.
Yeah. It is like looking back on it. I think that too, it's very odd.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: Like, how we had so many dubs at the time, but also that this little, this little spot in rural, Maryland was getting all of these videos and yeah, it was pretty, and this was before cable too.
Like we didn't have cable at the time, a lot of my access to animation was through this little rental shop.
Jarrett: Wow. Wow. And so did you love to draw before or after? Can you, or was it simultaneous love of animation and drawing for you?
Nilah: I think the animation came before and I always tell people that I was.
Bad at art at that age. And I'm talking about when I was in kindergarten, so five or six , who's good at art at that age? But it was this I was really bad at coloring in the lines.
Jarrett: Oh, that showed, that did show - sorry to cut you off - but all that did was show promise.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: All that did was show promise in your work. So it sounds like you had someone somewhere to say, no, you're supposed to color in the lines. And then you're like, oh, what?
Nilah: It was my peers, I remember sitting at a table in kindergarten and I'm coloring. And one of the little girls next to me was like, "Nilah, do you want me to do that for you?"
And that, that devastated me.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And so from a very young age, I was like, wow, I have to get better at this cuz that's embarrassing. And so from five or six years old, I was just making this conscious effort to study and practice and be better at art. And my first subjects were animals cuz that's what I was interested in.
We had this magazine series called ZooBooks. And it was full of photos and illustrations of animals. And I would copy these, copy this art and learn animal anatomy from that. Later we got cable and I would watch discovery channel. And then I could see like animals in motion, and I love the Peanuts.
I love Charlie brown and Snoopy taught me how to draw animal toes. As a kid, I was, I would draw them wrong. And I knew they looked wrong, but I didn't know why. And so I would look at Snoopy's feet and how Charles Schultz drew Snoopy's feet. And I started drawing my feet more like that.
And… eventually, I came to understand why the way I was drawing feet before was wrong, anatomically and like that really, that really helped me take my drawings to the next level.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And so it wasn't until much later that I really made the connection between animation and my own drawing, I just like watching cartoons and, I also love to draw.
And so as I got older, I, I did process drawing as a storytelling tool and would start drawing, drawing my own stories. And much, much later I got into anime, and… Also Disney started putting out those, like "Making-Of" specials
Jarrett: Yes!
Nilah: Where they talked about how they made animated films.
And that's when I started to learn; " Oh, people are drawing these movies." And that made, that kind of bridged things for me that you can, like that people make comics, people make animated cartoons, like people make children's books. And, I didn't understand where those illustrations came from or anything, but like seeing the process helped me connect the dots like; "Oh, I, as a person can also do this. I can, create stories with art."
Jarrett: And so growing, coming up then. You had art supplies you were drawing and what were your parents' reaction to that? Do they, they thought it was cute and then you'll outgrow it? Or what was that? What was that dynamic like for you?
Nilah: Oh, they thought it was real cute. My dad actually was known as an artist for a while.
He was in the military and I think… I'll have to ask my mom this. I think the story is that he actually considered going to college for art and he went into the military instead. And…
Jarrett: Those are two vastly opposite things!
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Right?
Nilah: Yeah. And so he could draw as a kid, I found some of his some of his old sketches.
And he had a life drawing book, and he did a mural down in the basement that terrifies my nieces, now! It's this pirate face on this cinder block wall in the basement. And I guess when my nieces were growing up, this terrified them and they still don't like it. But so my dad drew and that's something I learned a little later.
It's not really people saw me drawing and they were like; "Oh, your father drew too." And so I learned about it that way.
Jarrett: Wow.
Nilah: My mom was a teacher, and so she would bring home reams of paper for me, and pencils, and drawing was a way to keep me quiet. So when we're at church or when we're out in public, she would just hand me and my brother like drawing supplies and we would go to town and, we would…
Be behaved. And so she, she liked that aspect of it. And then I got a little older and I would keep drawing and that fascinated small children. So it also kept other children quiet.
Everybody, everybody was like; "Yeah, Nilah! Keeping the peace, keeping everyone disciplined!" And that's all, it was for a long time until I was in high school. And I said; "Hey, I think I wanna go to art school." And then things took a turn
Jarrett: And they were like; "Wait a minute."
No, exactly. That's always the interesting thing, where it's supported. And then and it, what I've come to, to learn since years have passed since I was that age, that it comes from love. It comes from fear. Which is love for the kid of how is this kid gonna grow up to support themselves?
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Especially if it's a world that the parent or caretaker doesn't fully understand or know. Where and maybe and could be read between the lines, but, I don't never knew your dad never didn't know his childhood, but he chose what you know, was more, would be a more practical path.
So while that, that, like history was echoing in you then getting to that age and you went to art school, did you went to college to study art?
Nilah: I did. Yeah.
Jarrett: What, and what was your study? What did you study when you were there?
Nilah: Computer animation.
Jarrett: Oh yeah. And so animation was your… animation was like, that was your goal then?
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: Yeah. That was ever since I was 13. That was the end game for me.
Jarrett: And then, so you went to, you went to college and then you graduate from college and I'm sure your parents were like; "And now do you go to work at an office? Do you get a pension? Do you get a, do you get a 401k?"
Nilah: Yeah they didn't understand it for a long time.
And it didn't really materialize for a long time. And my mother was always very honest that she could offer me no advice. Cause vice cause when she was growing up, a black woman in the forties and fifties and sixties, she would say there were three options for us. Be a nurse, be a house cleaner or be a teacher.
And she picked teaching. Nowadays women and black women in particular have so many more options. And I would call home about my internal struggle about what I should be doing. And she'd be like; "Yeah, that sounds hard."
Jarrett: But she's, " I have nothing for you because I haven't walked that path,
other than, being a black woman who's dealt with society." And so… Right. Exactly. And so there, so yeah, there must have been so much fear. Obviously eventually… Oh yeah. You assuage those fears because you became very successful.
You became the first…
Nilah: So…
Jarrett: Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Nilah: Yeah. Yeah.
The thing, so basically, my, my parents could never stop me. From doing what I was gonna do. And they both knew that. So they put the pressure on, but ultimately, the reason I ended up going to art school is… So we, we tried an animation, like an art trade school, art institutes, and that didn't work out.
And so I went with my mom's plan and did the whole four year college thing. I actually studied journalism and public relations. And when I finally went to Ringling College and studied animation, like I was an adult, I, at that point had a job. I had my own money. I had my own credit. And at this point my parents couldn't stop me.
So I went to art school under my own power and they just had to sit back and wait and see how things turned out. And yeah, there was a lot of fear and totally legitimate fear because we live in this culture that really doesn't support the arts as a career.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: Even now it's really hard to be an artist because, it's hard to get paid what we're worth. We're, we're still fighting this like societal image of artists as poor and free loaders and just an unnecessary expense. We're in a society where the arts in schools and arts foundations are constantly being defunded, and people don't really understand how much art and design impacts their everyday lives.
And and then, on top of that I think when you're a marginalized person, like your parents are always looking at where, what are the jobs? Where are the careers that people that look like us are thriving. And. That was not entertainment for black people. You don't see, you didn't see black people in those Disney specials. You… And nevermind that I was growing up on the east coast and we really didn't have an entertainment culture here, at least not in TV and film. Yeah. It's different in if you're growing up in California and you're surrounded by studios, who's working in those studios, but here, like there was no window to see where somebody with an animation degree could get a job.
Jarrett: And it's all, it is also, different when you're white, like growing up, I never had a search for characters that looked like me. I never had a search for seeing those specials. And so even though I was on the east coast, I was like; "Oh that's something I can do."
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: But when growing up obviously that's ingrained if you don't see it. And because of your parents lived experience, there were, so there was, so the odds were so stacked against their daughter's favor and they want you to be happy and they want you to be healthy and they want you to succeed.
But you were UN you were unstoppable, you were just kept at it. And you had this love of art and story and you said, you, you said you studied journalism as well. So was like, what was your first paid gig as someone who put words on a paper? Was it journalism? Was it for a newspaper.
Nilah: It was journalism. It was, I think it was a food review. I think it was a restaurant review. Yeah. I worked toward the arts and entertainment department of a Western Maryland newspaper chain, which no longer exists sadly. But I got this job while I was in college. They were looking for interns and I got the internship.
And while I was interning the, the editor who hired me was like; "By the way, do you wanna do some writing?" And, looking back I'm like, what was the other part of this internship? Cuz all I remember is the writing. Like they, they definitely asked me to write in addition to interning, but I don't remember what the interning part was.
I do remember. The early writing gigs. And she was just like; "Hey, why don't you try doing a couple of food reviews?" And that was really cool. I got to go to restaurants and review, write a review.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And then that summer there was there, was like a regime change at the paper and my editor rage quit.
And I was like; " I guess that's it for that job!" And so I was like that was fun. I worked for the newspaper for a few months. And then the editor who took our place called me and was like; "Hey, so I found your name on this list of freelance writers. Do you wanna keep writing for us?" And I was like; "Yeah, sure!"
and so he kept feeding me jobs and I didn't review restaurants again, but he would send me out to review gallery openings and to talk to local musicians and I speak to like local, owners of dance companies and theater companies and just this wide array of things. And I, my mom bought me a car cuz it was freaking her out.
I was basically walking around town at night to get to these jobs. And so she bought me a car. So I wouldn't do that. And so I was driving all around, Maryland, reviewing, like writing for this paper. And I did that for two years, through my junior and senior year of college. And then after I graduated and I did it up until the point that I got a full time job and just didn't have time anymore.
And yeah.
Jarrett: Moms are gonna mom forever. Never not gonna be your mom. Never not gonna be your mom looking out for you. And so you know that - granted you were pursuing degrees, but… it sounds like that was also like a whole other master's degree in, in learning about the arts. So you were studying…
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: You were studying the stories of so many people who were you self-employed or making a go at, making a living via a non-traditional means. It's true. You must have met so many interesting people. I can't even, I'm sure that just yeah. Soaked into the fabric of who you became.
So what was your fulltime job? You said you had a full-time you said you had a full-time job. So you left that. What was your full-time case?
Nilah: I was a marketing writer for a health nonprofit.
Yeah. Sounds exciting. Was that super exciting?
Yes…
Jarrett: No?
Nilah: It was amazing. No, it was. So it was in like the DC Metro area and the commute was very long.
It was 70 minutes, one way. Ooh. On the DC beltway. And I'd have to leave home at, what, 4:30, 5 in the morning to get there before rush hour. And it was, it was a fine gig. This nonprofit runs a trade show. I think they do it every other year in Chicago. So while I was there, I got to go to Chicago and help coordinate this giant trade show which was actually that part was really cool.
It was, it was a fine job. It taught me, about the corporate space. It was pretty close to what I went to school to do. And they paid me well for a nonprofit. Like I had a competitive salary. It was, it was my first taste of money.
Jarrett: Yeah. Which is important to pay for things.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: like your basic needs and enjoyment for sure.
Nilah: And, at the time I was outlining this future and marketing and PR and that was gonna be it. But wow. I still, I still had this bug where I wanted to draw and write and working in marketing wasn't fully fulfilling it. And so I decided I wanted to give it another go.
I wanted to, I started just like poking at, looking at art programs, just, experimentally and ended up applying a lot faster than I thought I would and ended up going a lot faster than I thought I would.
Jarrett: And is that for a master's degree? Is that…
Nilah: No, a bachelor's.
Jarrett: For oh, for a bachelor's!
Nilah: I have two bachelors and it feels so pointless.
Jarrett: Oh, here I am thinking like… Oh, I, my, like I'm always concerned. I'm not being a good listener… No, you went and got a second bachelors.
Nilah: I went and got a second. No one needs two bachelors.
Jarrett: So hold up, you went and got a second bachelor's degree. Like…
Nilah: I went and got a second bachelor's.
Jarrett: And in what? So your first bachelor, your first bachelor's was in computer animation.
Nilah: My first bachelor's was in… Communications.
Oh…
Yeah.
Jarrett: I see. Then yeah. Two bachelors, but they're completely different.
Nilah: Completely different.
Jarrett: And what a different experience too, of being, an older student you're not fresh out of high school, you I'm sure you, your approach to the academics and what you were learning were so different, right?
Nilah: Yeah. Honestly, I was an older student both times.
I, I skipped a year when I when I graduated high school, me and my mom fought over the art school thing. And then I ended up not going to college that first year. And so I was older when I went to that first four year college hood college. It was actually a women's college at the time.
So I was entering, I think at 19 instead of 18. And then when I went to Ringling, I was 25. So I was. Much, not the oldest adult student there, but I was older than all the 18 year olds coming in. Yeah. And it, it definitely, it's a different perspec perspective for sure. This was not my first career attempt, it wasn't, at 18, like there's so much pressure to choose a career, choose it now and go to college for that career and stay in that career.
So you can pay back those student loans. And I didn't have that. I, animation was like I had my plan B already. I had my fallback career. Like I had my degree in marketing that I could always fall back on if the animation thing didn't work out. So animation was just like a fully like personal choice that I was making.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: Everything I did at that point, I, I did it as, a fully consenting adult
Jarrett: and you, so then you had your second graduation and your family, didn't we do this seven years ago and
Nilah: yeah.
Jarrett: So you're like launching into the world a whole second time. That's like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly twice.
Yeah.
Nilah: Yeah. It was very it was very interesting.
Jarrett: yeah.
Nilah: But
Jarrett: yeah so you, but you wow, but amazing that you had the foresight to say, okay, let me reset. Let me really follow the passion, like you,
Nilah: yeah.
Jarrett: And you learned a lot in that corporate space too, because we're artists.
But we still have to deal with the corporations who publish the work or help promote the work. So what was your, so then what was your first paid gig after getting a degree in animation?
Nilah: My first paid gig was in publishing because I couldn't get an animation job. Oh. I entered Ringling at the start of the recession.
Leading up to 2006, 2007, all of the feedback coming out of Ringling was come to this school and you'll get a high paid job in animation
and yeah.
Jarrett: Speaking of marketing
Nilah: right. And then I entered Ringling that, that year, 2007, And like we're in school, we're just watching on the news, all the jobs dry up.
Jarrett: Oh.
Nilah: And so it was basically for all of us, it was like this three or four year, wait to see, will there be jobs when we get out. And for me there wasn't. So my first job out of Ringling, I graduated in 2010, was a publisher in Maryland. And I was falling back on my previous career for that, I had, because of my earlier experiences, I had the credentials for this job.
I stayed for seven months. It was, it was a position that ended up being, not as advertised. And
Jarrett: yeah. Yeah.
Nilah: And during this year that I was home was, it was difficult. My aunt died that year. And so my family needed me at home, but also so it reignited that fear my mom had of me leaving.
And so I was really trying to stay in Maryland. And at the same time, like there was just this thought in my head that I hadn't given animation, like a full try. Like I was trying to find work while being at home. Cuz I, I had nowhere else to go knowing that all of the work was in California. And no one would hire me here in Maryland, because most places they wanted someone right away.
And like, why hire someone in Maryland and wait for them to move out when you can just hire one of these thousands of people hanging around LA looking for work. So I ended up just packing all my things into my car and moving to LA that summer 2000 that fall 2011. And so at this point I'd been out of school for over a year and still did not have a job in animation.
And I was writing completely on my savings and the savings. Once I got to LA the savings dried up very quickly, I was completely broke and I was applying everywhere. And getting, getting nowhere. I got so desperate that I was applying for retail and that wasn't working out either. I couldn't, it was so dry.
I couldn't even get a retail job. I applied for a, an unpaid internship and I didn't get that either. I couldn't even get a job where I worked for free and I was ready to throw in the towel, but I didn't have enough money to afford to move back home.
Jarrett: You couldn't afford to even buy the towel to throw it at that point.
Nilah: Yeah.
Yeah. Like my mom start, my mom was paying my rent.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And she could have barely afford that. Like my parents were both retired and in January, 2012, I. I happened to see a listing on Ringling's job website for a little company in Burbank. And I got an interview there. They were, they did mostly live action work, but they were hiring their first in-house artist.
And the company was run by Florida state alums. I think it's Florida state. I can't remember now wow it's been a while, but oh, that's embarrassing if they watch this. But they had this Florida connection. So they, when they were hiring for this position, they decided to put a listing on the Ringling job site because Ringling is also in Florida and I got the job.
Jarrett: Yes.
Nilah: And that was my first LA job. It was the company is called soapbox films. and at the time they were doing a lot of like marketing and live action production, mainly for Disney. So if you ever heard of like movie surfers in like the early two thousands, I think they, the Disney channel had this program called movie surfers and soapbox, like back in that day, soapbox was the one developing that.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: They do a lot of production with the Muppets. They're one of a handful of studios in LA that are equipped to work with the Muppets.
Jarrett: Whoa. That's not an easy thing to get. .
Nilah: Yeah, and they do what is called toolkit for animated films. Toolkit is like just it's a package of assets that the studios will use to advertise their animated films and to develop toolkit.
You need a storyboard artist and that's what they hired me for.
Jarrett: That's fantastic. So now you're getting paid to draw pictures that tell stories.
Nilah: Yeah.
Finally getting paid, just draw
pictures.
Jarrett: You're on your way moving right along Fozzie and Kermit saying as they're driving across country.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: oh
man. And so that must have, that must have led to other things, right?
Nilah: It allowed me to stay in LA.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: They were, this was this was the conflict My time at soapbox was great. I stayed there for three years, but it wasn't, it allowed me to tread water in Los Angeles, but it wasn't a stepping stone really to the next thing, because everything that I did there was so specific to what soapbox did.
It didn't translate well to other jobs at other studios. So I couldn't use anything I was doing there in my portfolio. So if I wanted to, if I wanted to work in TV and film, which was still the goal, I had to develop my portfolio pieces outside of work. At this time I was, I had my day job at soapbox, but I was also still figuring out what is my career though.
Yeah. And there were times like I'd go through this cycle at soapbox where I would try really hard to get out. So I'd be submitting my storyboarding portfolio to other studios and nothing would materialize. And I'd give up after six months and I'd say, you know what, let me just hunker down and focus on my time here at soapbox.
And maybe this can become a long term career. And so I would really like put all of my energy into being like the best soapbox employee I could be. And then after six months, I'd be like, I can't take this. I can't do this anymore. I have to get out. And so I'd re-up and put all of my energy into storyboard portfolio stuff and try again.
And I did this for three years and meanwhile I fell into comics in children's books a little bit. Cause at this point, I was so desperate for money I was so desperate. Like I was just like clinging on by my fingernails. And I just needed something to work. And so I was, utilizing the skills I had, which were basically writing and drawing.
And I started a web comic and I started, I joined society of children's book, writers and illustrators, so I could learn how to make children's books. And I was doing picture book dumies and trying to write novels and looking for an agent and drawing this web comic in my spare time outside of soapbox.
And, also, putting storyboard portfolios together. And so I did this for three years and then finally in 2015, everything changed. I submitted my web comic to the Dwayne McDuffy award for diversity and won that. I
Jarrett: and hold on. You were the inaugural winner too.
Nilah: I was the
inaugural
winner.
Jarrett: You were the first person ever to win that award.
Nilah: It was bonkers. Yeah. I, and I was so used to losing at that point that and the competition was so stiff. I was like, I got nominated. And I was like that was a fun experience, but I'm never gonna win a little web comic with a very small following is not gonna win against all these like actual comics.
I was up against Ms. Marvel and I believe shaft by David Walker and hex 11. And I was just like, that's the end of the road. And, but it won MFK one.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: And it, it was the start of a very different it was the start of
things for me.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Yeah. And and I do think film, and graphic novels, they do have a lot in common.
I look to film to inspire how I, I write my graphic novels and yeah. I have to say so a couple months ago, I was just, just binge watching some shows on Disney plus and they have this show that's about the history of Marvel. And then there was one episode about the women of Marvel and the women who've written for Marvel and how certainly they were there in the beginning, but they weren't necessarily writing the stories.
They were, they, it was everything back then in the world of comics, like most of the world too, and most of the country was, chauvinistic. And so I'm just watching and I'm so fascinated hearing these stories of these pioneers. And then you pop up on the show. I was like, wait a minute.
I don't need to see the, I didn't need to see the little name at the bottom. Like I know that's Nilah And you became the first black woman to write for Marvel comics.
Nilah: Isn't that bonkers like
Jarrett: It is
bonkers. Tell me about that. Tell me about your mom's reaction because there is something you said in something you'd said in the show was something about your back in the day.
Was it like your mom's was your mom's friends giving her flack or something?
Nilah: Oh yeah.
Yeah. I don't even know if I've told my mom that I'm the first black writer for Marvel, because some things I say about my career just mean nothing to her. so
but
Jarrett: like I said, moms are gonna, mom,
Nilah: moms are gonna mom,
Jarrett: no matter what.
Nilah: But, I didn't realize the extent of this coming up, but when I decided to go down this path like my mom's older black lady, friends in, Maryland middle class, Maryland were really judgey about it. And like one of them once asked me because I, the art school thing had not yet materialized.
And she was like, oh, so are you finally over that art hobby yet?
Jarrett: Oof
Nilah: and I, I didn't realize this either, but there's this other family friend that we don't speak to anymore. And I thought that we just drifted apart, but turns out like going to art school was like a point of contention for her.
Jarrett: Wow.
Nilah: And. And it's such a weird thing to think about that she would distance herself from our entire family over, over a personal choice that I made.
Jarrett: It's
not witchcraft, it's not witch. I mean like sacrificing rabbits on the full moon or something. I don't
Nilah: right.
It's yeah. But
Jarrett: wow. Wow.
Nilah: So like my mother, wasn't telling me about this.
She wasn't telling me that like her friends were coming down hard on her and she had to defend me
Jarrett: wow.
Nilah: And defend my choices. But. when I started working for Dreamworks and Disney, she finally got her vindication, cuz she would say, Hey, my kid works at Disney now. And they understood
that.
Jarrett: Yes they, they certainly did.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: And run us through some of your credits of, cause I know you from the book world and I know that you've done stuff for Dreamworks and Disney, but what kind of jobs have you done over these years?
Nilah: So I was a storyboard revisionist on Dino trucks at Dreamworks and Dino trucks is a Netflix show.
You can watch it on Netflix. It's just what it sounds like. It's dinosaur trucks. And it's based on a
children's book
Jarrett: and it's based on a children's book. You can't escape now. We're bringing you over just the same. you're in this publishing game too.
Nilah: at Disney. I hopped onto tangled the series.
Jarrett: Oh.
Nilah: Which is based on the movie.
Jarrett: Yeah. We love that show in my house. What did you do then?
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: What did you do on the show?
Nilah: I was also a storyboard revisionist there. And so storyboard revisionists They're basically the support team for storyboard artists. So they, the storyboard artists do their thing and storyboard revisionists help make sure that the storyboards are ready for the next process in the pipeline.
Jarrett: Okay.
Nilah: So we it's a lot of drawing. It's a lot of support drawing just to, to tighten things up for the animators. God what happened next? I was a writer for cannon busters produced by LaSean Thomas.
Jarrett: Wow.
Nilah: I was a writer for Polly pocket.
Jarrett: Nice.
Nilah: Which is based on Iconic
Yeah. Yeah. Poly pocket is still around
Jarrett: iconic.
That's wild. Yeah. And you illustrated the Rick Riordan and heroes of Olympus books too.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Goodness like that is huge. For you, you don't get bigger in publishing than Rick Riordan
Nilah: it's true. Yeah.
Jarrett: And, And animals and fantasy. And you illustrated the covers for our friend Daniel, Jose older, the Dactyl hill squad
books.
Nilah: That was my first time drawing dinosaurs in my life.
Jarrett: really, I, would've never known that. I had never known that
Nilah: aside from Dino trucks, but that was a very different thing.
Jarrett: Yeah. Those are more trucks than dinosaurs, right? Yeah.
Nilah: Yeah. It was wild. Like I had to learn dinosaur anatomy.
Jarrett: And so where in, where did all of that?
Did Marvel come calling?
Nilah: So back in 2016, I think it all happened very fast. This was after the Dwayne McDuffy award and I never got a clear answer on how they found me. It might have been Twitter, but an editor from Marvel reached out one day and said, Hey, would you like to write a short story for us on this new series called the year of marvels and they pitched a rocket raccoon tippy-toe squirrel team up and of course animals.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: So
Jarrett: it's your wheelhouse
Nilah: Yeah. Yeah.
So I took it of course. And that kind of got things rolling. Once you're, once you write for a Marvel you're in the Marvel family. So
Jarrett: yeah,
Nilah: I didn't, I did that and didn't, work with them for a long while after that. And so it just so happened.
I didn't know this at the time I was completely unprepared. But that ended up being their first writing credit by a black woman. And so 70 years into Marvel's history and it was just this little short digital comic, but that was the very first credit.
Jarrett: Yeah.
Nilah: As far as I know.
Yeah.
So what a mix of, feeling this honor being triumphant and also being like it's been 70 years guys.
Yeah,
Jarrett: right?
Nilah: Yeah. That is a barrier being broken in 2016. Yeah. It's really hard to be proud of it. It's definitely a distinction.
Jarrett: It's a distinction for sure.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Yes.
Nilah: But
it's that's yeah. It's also
yeah.
Jarrett: Yeah. And I also understand, and I was excited when I read about this and I don't wanna take up. Your entire day, cause I'm sure you have a lot to do and animals to take care of, I see that crate behind you. And I'm curious. Do you have a dog?
Is that, what is that crate behind you?
Nilah: Yeah, I do have a dog. I've also been fostering dogs.
Jarrett: Aw
Nilah: And I just ordered some chicks. So in a few months that might be the chick pen
Jarrett: Nice.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: Oh man. That's great. I have three dogs, so like the dog people we're right there. And
Nilah: yeah.
Jarrett: So I read about this in publishers weekly and I followed you on Instagram and stuff and I love the cartoons you make and you have a story with of your own.
Tell us about real love. That's coming out from random house children's books.
Nilah: Yeah. So this is based on a trip that I took when I was about 11 or 12 years old. And it was this formative experience I had with my mom in North Carolina, and I learned to fish and I met a boy and it was, it was a trip of only a few days.
It wasn't a very long trip, but it it transformed me at a transformative time. And so it's a graphic memoir about my real life experience.
Jarrett: That's awesome. When can we expect to see that on shelve?
Nilah: I don't know.
Jarrett: I
know. I feel like also, I feel like the pandemic has made publication dates.
Great suggestions.
Nilah: yeah.
Jarrett: Why? Because these times are tough. These times are tough.
Nilah: Yeah.
Jarrett: And I know that you've had a tough couple of years in your own life, on top of a tough world around us. And it's, like to be real, like I had some intense depression last calendar year, and it's hard to be creative when you're depressed, and it's hard and it is hard and it's weird.
It's a vicious cycle, like drawing and making stuff. Yeah. Makes me happy. But then when I'm not happy, I'm I can't easily make stuff. So I get you with those deadlines, yeah, you'll get it done. And we will be here to celebrate it. We will be here to celebrate this when it publishes your graphic memoir real love.
And is this middle. grade
Nilah: Yes.
Jarrett: Yes.
my goodness. I'm just, I'm in awe of you, I'm in awe of your perseverance, I'm in awe of your parents for supporting you and being fearful for you because they love you and, whatever it is they did in those formative years to make you, the person you are to just be relentless.
Talk about a story of perseverance of that, how scary it must have been for you to drive cross country. How scared you must have been when you were running out of your savings. But you kept at it. You followed your passion. You're, you blazed your own trail, in a, for, into a world that was someone like anything your parents understood or that you had access to as a kid.
And I, I'm proud. I'm proud to say, I'm your pal, man. I'm just thank you for taking this time to, to talk with us. And I just can't wait to see what you continue to bring the world.
Nilah: Oh, thank you so much, Jarrett. Yeah.
Jarrett: it's been awesome.
Nilah: It's yeah. It's good to know you too. I have so many peers and comics that, I feel like I'm just trying to follow in your footsteps and you guys really set an example for me of what I, can be in this industry.
So I'm just trying to live up to everyone's expectations.
Jarrett: Now we're all in this together, dude. We're all in this together. We are all. Making work for the kids that we were.