Defining Hospitality

Dan Ryan talks with Thomas Paterson, founder and lighting designer at Lux Populi, about one of hospitality's most overlooked design disciplines… light. Thomas explains why lighting designers need a seat at the table from day one, not after the drawings are done, and shares his take on how light shapes a space's emotional experience. The conversation covers the gap between the 2% of projects that engage a true lighting specialist and the 30-50% that probably should, what it means to design from the inside out, his unconventional path from Australia to Mexico City, the sustainability case for old-school screw-in bulbs, and why asking the right question at the right moment is the smartest move a lighting designer can make.

About the Guest: 
Thomas Paterson is the founder, director, and principal lighting designer at Lux Populi, a Mexico City based lighting design studio. He brings a first principles approach to every project, asking what light can do before how it should look. His portfolio spans luxury resorts, boutique hotels, restaurants, museums, and infrastructure, including 15 years with Sandals Resorts, the Four Seasons Los Cabos, and a landmark tunnel gateway in Sydney. Originally from Australia and formerly based in London, he landed in Mexico City by chance and built one of the industry's most distinctive lighting practices.

Chapters:
00:25 Meet Lighting Designer Thomas
03:09 Hospitality Through Light
06:43 Bring Lighting In Early
10:17 Who Owns The Brief
11:46 Do Projects Hire Lighting
17:23 Lighting As Editing Tool
25:43 Fixing Spaces After Opening
29:09 Why Mexico City
31:53 Mexico City Safety Shift
32:43 Designing the Cocoon
33:17 Contrast and Tone Basics
34:14 Fixing a Brand’s Lighting
35:47 Kelvin Myths Explained
37:38 Infrared and Homogenous LEDs
42:39 Culture and Buying Bulbs
47:37 Sustainability and PoE Lighting
54:53 Future of Lighting Design

Quote of the Show:
 "Lighting design is an editing tool. Emphasize, de-emphasize, reveal, conceal." - Thomas Paterson

Building a hotel, brand, or guest experience? Reach out to Dan on LinkedIn or hit reply on the Substack to share what you’re working on.

Links:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Serena Johnson

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Thomas Paterson
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together, we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms

Dan Ryan: Today's guest has led hospitality projects over many years, including the Four Seasons Los Cabos, 15 years of Sandals Resorts, and Grainer Farm, a boutique farm-to-table experience defined in apparent candlelight.

He also leads, quote, "first principles projects," which we'll dive into, where a client brings the question, "We have this problem and we think light is involved, but we don't know how." [00:01:00] He is the founder, director, and lighting designer at Lux Populi based in Mexico City. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Thomas Patterson.

Bienvenidos, Thomas.

Thomas Paterson: Gracias

Dan Ryan: I promise everyone we're not gonna do this in Spanish. I promise, I promise, I promise. Um, he's way better than I am, but it would be a real... I w- we'd be on the struggle bus if I had to go. I could get through it, but it wouldn't be fun. Um, I wanna let everyone know, one of the m- many, many, many, many benefits of doing all of these podcasts, hundreds of them over th- over the years, and writing all the articles and doing all the cool stuff, is each guest I interview has all, all these other amazing contacts and people that they've worked with and colleagues along their journeys.

Um, and Duane McKeown from Chicago was one of these and said, " He's awesome, and he's, he's built a really cool business and works on great projects." And when he was telling me about Thomas, I realized I don't think I've ever [00:02:00] spoken to a lighting designer on this podcast, and I'm almost embarrassed to say that because lighting is one of those things like signage, where if it's done poorly, you notice it, but the best light and, and it-- the best experiences that I've had in hospitality, um, you don't notice the light, but the lighting makes all of the difference.

Um, so welcome, and thank you, Duane. I really appreciate it.

Thomas Paterson: Thank you very much. Yeah, Dwayne's a good friend and, uh, has taken us to some places I never thought I would be, designing hospitality for, uh, a private racing club in Miami in the form of The Concourse Club, for example. Um, and while, uh, while I've yet to attend in any supercars that I own, uh, we, we did go around it in a, in a Dodge Grand Caravan with a chihuahua at the wheel.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow

Thomas Paterson: do, we, we do things well between Dwayne and I

Dan Ryan: Did that corner like it was on rails?

Thomas Paterson: Uh, it, it cornered like it was on something.

Four [00:03:00] pints

Dan Ryan: Like a wa- like a waterbed. It, it cornered like it was on a waterbed.

Thomas Paterson: Exactly. I think, I think membership costs in the, uh, in the club dropped in the course of two and a half minutes.

Dan Ryan: Well, Thomas, I'm very excited to have you on as, as the first lighting designer that we've spoken to. Um, but before we get into why lighting is so important, obviously it's your vocation, it's your passion. Um, what does hospitality mean to you? How do you define it? And then kind of feather in the role that lighting has in it.

Thomas Paterson: I think the first thing you have to think about with lighting design and with hospitality who's the recipient of it and how are they going to feel? Are they going to feel welcome in the space? Are they gonna feel like they belong in the space? So if you're doing a hotel, um, it's not just a hotel.

Uh, it's, uh, if, if it's a luxury resort, there are people who feel entitled to that space and so on, bringing a lot of care to them, uh, and a lot of service works very well for them. [00:04:00] But if you're dealing with someone who's a fast-moving business traveler, maybe, uh, um, less, well-off, less accustomed to high levels of service, they might feel uncomfortable with too many people coming at them and so on. Uh, so it's a question of how does it feel to them? Is that the right hospitality for that person? Hospit- hospitality is how is-- how does the recipient feel?

And I think with lighting, that's, that's really very true as well. Um, I walk down, you know, a major street in any town that I'm, I'm traveling to, and as I walk down, I'm looking through the windows on the other side of the road, and I know which bar I wanna go into, which one works for me. Just at that distance of remove, even just that little impression tells me, is this my bar or someone else's bar? And there's nothing wrong with it being, uh, cheesy, flashing colors and all those things in light, uh, if you're the sort of person who's really looking for a karaoke bar. Me, I wanna sit somewhere quiet with a friend where [00:05:00] I can hear them. I like a bit of buzz, but I wanna be able to hear them and have a conversation with them. So hospitality to me in a bar environment, for example, is very different than the person who wants the, the karaoke or wants the high level of service. I'd like

to be largely left alone in the company of the person I'm with. hospitality is what is it for me? And lighting's such a beautiful way of communicating that, how do I see across the street that that's the right bar? The glow of the windows usually. True way too far away to, to see the details of the interior design

Dan Ryan: Well, I, I think that's very important because as I think about my experience and all the conversations that I have about hospitality, and just pulling in mythology and all the things I loved learning about when I was a kid, there's always this, uh... I always am drawn back to Hera, the goddess of the hearth.

And to me, hospitality has a lot to do with that hearth and that warmth and [00:06:00] that glow that could be in a space or between people or many people. And I, I agree, as I'm walking down the street, that glow can really draw me in

Thomas Paterson: Yeah, and it, it also tells you what kind of life you're gonna have in there. So it's not just is it hospitable? Is it hospitable to me right now? Is a, is a, is another question. We, we live in different modes. there's a big difference between a holiday destination and so on. I think, I think we too often with what I would call the junior consultants, the lighting designers, the acousticians, the, you know, all of these consultants, we don't talk enough about what the demographics are of the people who are gonna use a space or, uh, you know, who they are and what they value and so on.

So there's this whole layer of like, who are you?

Dan Ryan: One of the things that I'm wrestling with these days is, you know, I go to all these conferences and, you know, if a hotel developer is talking about getting all the consultants on early, um, usually they're talking about architects, designers, [00:07:00] buyers, engineers, um, general contractors. I don't hear lighting very often, and also, like selfishly, I don't hear the long lead FF&E items either, because I think they're just as important because they can really compress a schedule.

But ideally, if you envision like a project kicking off, no matter where it is in the world that you're working on, what's the best time for a l- lighting designer to come in on a project, in your opinion? And I know you're probably gonna say, "Before the owner even knows what they're doing," but realistically

Thomas Paterson: I think it's actually a question of expectation of when you bring them in. What are you-- We, we don't have to be brought in to start doing drawings on day one, you know? So we would love to come in in the early envisioning of like, what should this be? What's the experience of this?

Um, and so we have a lot to contribute of just questioning things. You know, what's the atmosphere of this space? What's the difference between day and night? Um, we were just looking at a, um, [00:08:00] uh, under an NDA of course, as these things go, but we were just looking at a kickoff for a, um, uh, an entertainment experience,

Dan Ryan: You're trying not to say it so you don't have to kill me, right?

Thomas Paterson: exactly. That's right.

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Thomas Paterson: of your listeners. I

Dan Ryan: Yes, exactly. No violence

Thomas Paterson: and the, and the question, you know, was what should people's experience be here? And what should people's experience be here is a question which leads on to acoustics, scents, interior design and architecture of course.

But, you know, these things that you don't necessarily realize are even questions. some of us will frame questions in different ways or explain what, why we're asking the question differently. So this space is going to have, a, it's, it's, it's a glass box with a hell of a view, it's got a lot going on inside. So what's the emphasis between dealing with the inside experience and the view? And the answer in this case was, the view is great as you walk [00:09:00] in, once you're in there, we wanna cocoon you in there and experience that. uh, uh, we've done bars where it's a glass box and the view is the only thing that they want.

You know, we're stripping down the interior design all the way to some, you know, simple, nice wood and a couple of, uh, tones in napkins and that's it. So everything that the lighting designer did in that case was to avoid having reflections on the glass. So there's a whole lot of stuff like that which is philosophical at the start of a project, before we're actually useful in producing.

We would love to come in, get engaged with the ideas, ask the questions which get people excited, uh, which let them work with us. But maybe then there's architects and interiors concept schematic, it's only once we start going into DD, you know, design, design development, that we're suddenly getting the we need to start thinking about drawings and so on. But the philosophy is there. So I think it's, it's a l- a lot of the question is what do you wanna do when? And I don't wanna do rounds of documentation through SD [00:10:00] when they haven't even worked out the massing of the building yet and, you know, how many floors is it gonna be and so on. It's not a good use of anyone's time or money. Um, but on the other hand, being there even months before that and saying, "What's the emotional experience of this space?" Yeah,

get us at the table

Dan Ryan: what conversations are h- are happening there? Or like sometimes an interior architect could plan this whole thing out and then bring you in after. And are they asking the clarifying questions and being like, "This is what I want," or what's the normal order of operation there?

Thomas Paterson: Oh, look, we- we're so spoiled. We own-- I mean, we, we, we reject 75% of the projects which come to us, which we mostly work-- means we mostly work with people we've worked before, and we work mostly, know, have run all this stuff in. Um, so for us, generally speaking, we will have some good conversations with the client at the outset. but mostly then we're working with the architect and interior designer and the landscape architect. Um, in too many projects, uh, [00:11:00] the lighting designer is just behind the architect, and they're often just given the drawings and told, "Hey, do lighting design for this building." seems like you're missing the point.

I mean, the point should be, who is this building for? How is it going to live? What's the experience you're supposed to have? And so on. So holding us behind the architect completely is always wrong. We need access to the client to ask the question, but we're spoiled by being able to ask those questions. I know we have little questionnaires that we use that, you know, for different industries where you ask different questions in different ways.

You know, is your home to you is a very different question than what is this ho- to you. what is this home to you is it's, it's a retreat from the world, or it's my embassy to the world. You know, very different ways of living a life and, and they affect how lighting design is done

Dan Ryan: In the hospitality projects that you've worked on and in hospitality projects in general, 'cause I, again, I don't really interact-- The only time I ever interact with lighting designers is on some projects, most of our furniture gets electrified and there's [00:12:00] LEDs with switches and dimmers. And so sometimes, uh, there will be a project that will have a lighting designer who will want to give feedback on, on, uh, color temperature and functionality of dimming and how it plays within a space, but

Yeah, yeah

mostly in the guest room.

But it's, it hasn't been that many, to be perfectly honest. Um, for every hospitality project that you work on or every hospitality project that you've heard on and maybe even didn't work on, do they all have lighting designers? Or what percent of hospitality projects, that's the better question, have lighting designers in your expert opinion?

Thomas Paterson: Very few. Um, I mean, obviously we're on them 100%, but, even then there's often a sort of, "Can you give us advice but not do full service?"

Yeah

is, is sometimes a question. would say that the vast majority of chain hotels and so on, do not. would say that a lot of chain operators and chain franchises and so on are very poor at having a [00:13:00] lighting designer even involved in their brief. lot of their standard document that then the architect has to implement or whatever, um, even developed by their engineering people with a few comments from a few branding people, but doesn't come together into enough of a coherent thing. So there, there's that gap at that end, and then there's lighting salespeople

acting as lighting designers, and there's a, there's a whole market for them.

I, I have my issues with that market, but I fully acknowledge that they-- some of them are very good and do really nice work. Of course, they're trying to sell lights. You know, there's all of the questions of independence and, and, and, uh, advice. and then, and then there, then there's the, the general mass of lighting designers who work with the architect or interior designer and develop lighting design, do some really beautiful stuff.

Hmm.

Uh, and, and they're usually just involved in doing design, and then they'll get shop drawings from someone like [00:14:00] yourself, uh, which they'll review and comment on color temperature, dimmability, all that sort of stuff, or check alternate products which a has brought with them.

Uh, and then there's a relatively small number of lighting designers who, you know, really look at the whole commercial side of things, whether they're involved in the commercial side or not. And so there's different business models all the way down the line. I would

say, like, fully involved all the

yeah.

2%.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow. Okay. So that's way less... Okay. Now, but, but you started off talking about more like mass market, maybe select service or focus service type hotels,

Yep.

And then up to the luxury and lifestyle. And if, if you were to segment that to the luxury and lifestyle hospitality projects, whether it's bar, restaurant, hotel, resort, what percent of the luxury and lifestyle would have a lighting designer?

Is it-- It's, is it-- It's gotta be more than 2%, but am I gonna be surprised that it's really not as many as I would think there would be?

Thomas Paterson: I would think it's 30 to 50%,

Dan Ryan: [00:15:00] Okay

Thomas Paterson: you know, five-star, um, properties, luxury properties.

Dan Ryan: And lifestyle could be three plus. So in that upper mid scale, so maybe it's less

Thomas Paterson: and the, the more you go into boutique, the less likely you are to have a

lighting designer. A lot more gets put on the interior designers to, to pull things together, which is why you see a lot more sort of, quite moody, not necessarily terribly functional, sort of very attitude-driven spaces with beautiful decoratives and so on. And what you'll find is a lot of those interior designers doing a really great job of just finding someone to come in and give them advice. again, can't say for whom, but we're, we're currently looking at a, um, hospitality services office. We're actually doing the office for the hospitality services company, and the interior designers have just bought 200 hours of our time to provide advice over the course of the year of designing and building.

So we'll provide advice, we won't do drawings and so on, but, uh, we'll help them look at every decorative they're thinking of and make sure that it's got a light bulb which gives you a tone consistent with the whole project and so on.

Dan Ryan: And then the direction. [00:16:00] So what it-- The reason why I'm asking is what I want and what I'm trying to get around to is let's just pretend it's 20% of that three-plus to five-star

Mm-hmm.

Market, that luxury, luxury to lifestyle, lifestyle to luxury. If only 25% to 35% of them have a lighting designer, I would assume that many interior architects or designers that you would work with have never worked with a lighting designer before.

So what's the, what's the light bulb moment, ha ha, uh, for that first time working with a lighting designer as far as like the, the going through the process and then the end result?

Thomas Paterson: Oh, uh, it's us- it's usually when you ask the right questions, usually not what you say, uh, or the, the

information you give, it's the, the thing that you ask. Um, you know, how is this supposed to feel? Uh, we, we were doing a, a kickoff for a tourism destination and, uh, you know, we went through all the practical stuff, and then we asked, "So what are [00:17:00] the bits which you'd be really excited to see expressed in light?" And you just saw the, the architect partner lean forward, could see that it was like a spring being released,

Dan Ryan: Yeah, I could imagine, 'cause they know what's most important and they know what they're trying... But maybe they didn't know that light could d- have some other role in, in, in that special moment.

Thomas Paterson: Totally. One of the ways to think about, about lighting design is as an editing tool. de-emphasize, reveal, conceal. And we've gone to the extremes of, of conceal, uh, for non-NDA reasons, which will become clear in a second. I won't disclose who this was, but we did a, we did a restaurant once, where the interior designer ha- had fairly poor judgment, um, um, when the

copper or in design?

Well, they hired us, so it was pretty poor in

Okay.

Uh, but but, but they had, they had all copper ducts through, through the whole restaurant,

and when the client VED [00:18:00] out the copper ducts, they decided to paint them copper color.

Dan Ryan: Oh

Thomas Paterson: And we knew how that was gonna feel, losing the tangibility of that, and they didn't have the, the judgment to say, "You know what? We'll just go to galvanized iron ducts. It'll be fine." So we plunged their ducts into darkness. We lowered all of the lights below the ducts and made sure the ducts were in darkness. And it's an editing tool, so we completely concealed something there, and we often conceal mechanical plant or whatever by leaving it in darkness. But it's that emphasis, de-emphasis thing that often is the thing that, uh, that an architect suddenly goes, "Oh, someone can help us lift bits and conceal bits." not, not one of our clients, but I'm, I'm a huge fan of, uh, of Houston's, uh, and the way they lift the bottle displays for the alcohols they want to sell in different areas.

They've made an emphasis choice about what they want you to see and experience. So when you're there, [00:19:00] before you go to your table, you're seeing the cocktail ingredients, and you're thinking, "Oh, I could do a cocktail before drinks." They don't wanna get you on the wine straight away they'll get you to your table, and then they'll sell a bottle of wine,

Hmm

and the lighting is telling them what to do, and it's that emphasize what you want people to see. Once you're at the table, you can maybe see the wine a little bit more, and as you get late in the night, they're more showing the, the, the brown spirits, the sort of after-dinner drinks. So if they can get three rounds of sale

Oh

than one, they're doing really well

Dan Ryan: So you're basically like the marionette, like just messing with all of us. But what I wanna say is I read an article on Bon Appétit, it must've been 10 or 15 years ago, and I've talked about Houston's a couple times. I, I, I work with some people who've been through that Houston's management program.

Bon Appétit magazine, which is kinda like for f- for food, I think it's a big [00:20:00] deal amongst foodies. I wouldn't call myself a foodie. I like all, all food. But they at one point said that Houston's and Hillstone's was the best restaurant in America, and not just because of the food, but just because of all those intangibles that you're talking about.

And they specifically use an example of just how if you order a martini at the bar, halfway through your martini, they're au- they're automatically gonna bring you a cold glass and pour your martini into it, into the f- freezing glass. But it's all those little touches that people who work there and excel there are great, and then it's-- there's like this diaspora of all these great managers through all different industries that started in the Houston management program, Houston's management program.

So thank you for sharing that.

Thomas Paterson: Yeah, my-- I-- look, I was in Los Angeles and met up with my little sister who, you know, I get to see in person

Oh

decade if I'm lucky, unfortunately, 'cause she's based in Australia. Uh, and wanted to know what I did. And, you know, in Los [00:21:00] Angeles, we actually have very little hospitality work. We mostly do, you know, $200 million loans, uh, which you can't exactly just walk in with your little sister, I'm sorry to say.

Dan Ryan: Right

Thomas Paterson: so I decided to take her to Houston's just to show her what we do. And the thing which was most standout was she was coming off a plane, she was jet lagged. We were the first people in through the door, and let me show her something which is one of these intangibles, and it's a lighting thing, it's an acoustics thing. We walked in and it was already buzzing even though we were the first guests through the door, and they absorb all of the sound out of the place and then re-inject audience noise with speakers for every table.

No

the perfect volume to talk across the table, and it sounds like it's buzzing. You don't feel like you're in a dead place,

Dan Ryan: Oh my God, I had no idea

Thomas Paterson: And lighting should be like that too. You should never know it's there. The beauty of lighting is y-your brain edits it out. Um, actually evolutionarily not useful to know what the lighting is in a situation.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, [00:22:00] so that, so that, that going back to the beginning of our conversation where I'm, where I said, you know, oftentimes s- signage, if it's done well, you never notice it. You just wind up... You wayfind your way to where you're supposed to go, and I-- But when it's not right or you get-- Then you're like, "What is going on?

Someone just missed the memo." When we spoke earlier, you were saying that the, that the brain edits out lighting. You actually don't consciously notice it. So how, how do you design for something that people aren't even aware of? And with signage, you're supposed to be aware of it because it's bringing you places.

But with lighting, that's so different 'cause you're not even... I guess you're, it's supposed to be a filtering mechanism, but it's something that you're not even aware of, according to our earlier conversation.

Thomas Paterson: I mean, from, from the most basic point of view, your brain really shouldn't care if there's a brightly lit half tiger there and a, and a, and a, and a shadowed h-half tiger there. question is, is it one tiger and is it gonna kill you, right? So your brain is quickly evaluating the world around you [00:23:00] without seeing the lighting. But on the other hand, you know, in a, in a beautiful lobby, we might graze the stone to show that the stone is hand-worked. You know, grazing, grazing the light across the stone you that this is not just a factory piece. You know, look at a, a, a bedside lamp, which is made with a metal spinning, and the way the gloss just on it is a little bit different than something which has been turned on a lathe. You know, the subtleties of those things, those all communicate, and that's all lighting representing it. Uh, everything we mediate through our eyes came by light in some way. Um, so a lot of what you're doing is you're trying to work out how to send signals. And I would say, uh, uh, like that you like percentages, um, I...

99% of what we do should be intuitive. You walk into space and you don't think lighting is telling me something. The lighting should just be, "Of course, it's that way." I mean, half the time it should look like we didn't do [00:24:00] very much. It should just feel like, "Ah, yes, this space feels good." Nice interior design, never think about the lighting. 1% of the time, is counterintuitive. It's like, "Look at me." your nightclub, big splashy thing. Uh, Paris Theatre, um, uh, now known as Queen um, in South Beach, has a giant video dome, when it transitions from restaurant mode to, to club mode, the whole thing opens up as a giant claw of screen pieces. oh boy, do you know the, when the dance floor lighting comes out of that. That's counterintuitive, and it wanna grab you, right? It's, "Oh yeah, we're here to dance too." But that's 1%. Ninety-nine percent, you should never notice

Dan Ryan: when you were using that example of the copper, well, were supposed to be copper ducts and then they wound up painting them and they look like crap, um, and then you came in. Were you in the... Did you start on that project in the [00:25:00] beginning or did you come later to try and fix the issue?

Thomas Paterson: We, we, we were there from the start.

Dan Ryan: the very start.

Thomas Paterson: and we, we spotted that in the OAC meetings when they did

Hmm

the cost cutting. And when they, when they cut it, you know, we said in the OAC meeting: "Are you sure you don't want to consider to a different material?" You know, they should, they should still be metallic.

They should still be, you know,

not painted. Uh, and the interior designer's like, "Oh, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. I really want my copper." And there was a judgment call on that one. And, and that's why I'm not naming them, 'cause I, I don't wanna embarrass someone who, you know, that was 20 years

ago in

Dan Ryan: it wasn't actually their intent. They wound up just paying it. They wanted them in copper, right? So budget.

Thomas Paterson: want you to get it. So at what

Yeah.

You pull back? You know

Dan Ryan: obviously, I mean, you're, you're a- you're asking to be brought on as early as possible, and m- most people don't work with lighting designers, right? So in that great... In an ideal project, you're being brought on early, you're consulting with everyone, you're trying to tap into the feelings.

Are you ever brought [00:26:00] in when the project's done and it's like, "Okay, this is just... We're getting bad guest comments. Like, w- we... The space isn't activated. Can you fix this?"

Thomas Paterson: Look, more often it happens when someone acquires someone else's restaurant.

Dan Ryan: Hmm

Thomas Paterson: So, at le- at least for us, in our experience. So it'll be, um, during the pandemic, there were a lot of restaurants distressed and, um, my friend Jonas Mian, he gave me a call and said, "Hey, I've just acquired two restaurants.

You know, they got $5 million kitchens and I bought the restaurant for small numbers. you know, I need to turn them into feeling like my restaurants."

So yeah, it was just go in and I, you know, spent three nights there. Luckily they had a lot of track lighting. Track lighting is generally not good, and I have a rule that like track light is not lighting design 'cause you have to go and adjust everything and you have to maintain that and it's a lot of vulnerability. But in this case, there was a lot of track lighting, so I was able to go in for an evening or two and transform it from feeling like a school cafeteria, uh, to, [00:27:00] to feeling like a classy restaurant. And there are other situations like that. We took on, well, uh, in a, in a past life, uh, I took on, um, The Raleigh in Miami in 2000.

It had been basically abandoned for 20 years,

Dan Ryan: I think it still is abandoned and there, the, someone just bought it.

Thomas Paterson: to survive. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: someone just bought it and they're gonna, they're gonna start renovating it now, so that's cool

Thomas Paterson: Yeah. Look, I, I, I, I hope so. Um, but the--

Critical. Yeah

we, we had a week there with a box of light bulbs and barely more, and we took it from feeling like a school cafeteria to being a really classy bar. And they went from a 3% return rate to a 70% return rate in a year. Oh, wow

lot of that was soft furnishings and, and other things which were done too, but a lot of it was lighting, you know.

And, and so, mean, I've always joked about the, the restaurant doctor model. You know, just call us in to do programming settings. And we don't have the resources to, on those little micro projects these days. We, you know, we don't have [00:28:00] to do them, but they were amazing jobs when we were, you know, little and hungry.

Dan Ryan: and of all the projects that you work on, 'cause I think you mentioned you worked at, on museums, hospitality, residential, commercial I'm sure. Um, generally speaking, which silos of those assets are the ones that would more often than not have a lighting designer in from the very, from the get-go?

Thomas Paterson: 100% hospitality. Well, I guess, I guess museums is, is, is an absolute these days too. But yeah, 100% hospitality. Um, uh, the way we see it, and I think the industry is coming to see it, is there are four visual professionals on every project. You got your architect, your interior designer, your landscape designer, and your lighting designer, and the lighting designer's the one who brings together those four, and they're also the one who does the translation from day to night.

You Hmm

always a danger when you see a hotel where all the renderings are nighttime or all the renderings are daytime. you see design, interior designers, [00:29:00] architects rendering in both day and night mode and understanding how this lobby will feel different day and night, then you'll probably find this lighting designer involved, and they're considering those things

Dan Ryan: yeah. Uh, how-- I'm also curious, how did you wind up deciding from being from Australia, how did you wind up deciding on Mexico City? To me, Mexico City is one of my favorite cities in the world. I f- I feel like in many ways it's a mashup of like Rome and Saigon,

Mm-hmm.

And it is freaking amazing and centrally located, a great airport.

You can get any- almost anywhere in the world pretty easy. But how did y- what, what was your journey to wind up in Mexico City?

Thomas Paterson: Oh, the glib version of that is, uh, wrong girl, right city. Um, uh, was living in London, uh, when I, when I met a Mexican woman and moved here. And we had a wonderful four years together, but it wasn't to be. but Uh, I found myself setting up a business here as much for the [00:30:00] visa and, you know, those logistics of life things.

Um, and we got really lucky. We had, had some incredible early projects. Um, NDA blocks me from saying what it is, but, you know, we, we, we started a house as our first project, which was completed a decade later and sold for $200 million. you know, so working at that level right from the start was amazing. then we started building a team, and, we've got 25, 30 people now. Um, and there are very few places in the world where you could get this level of talent, um, who are quite malleable in the sense that because there isn't a big lighting industry here, we've been able to build our office the way we think it should be, not the way it is here.

You know, if, if you're in New York or London, you get people who see the way lighting design is being done as the way it's done there. And so it's very hard to differentiate where-- be-because your staff pool is coming from a culture which has an [00:31:00] understanding. Creating a culture has been really fantastic.

It's got its work involved

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Thomas Paterson: but if no one comes in with expectations, you can build the expectations you want. so, you know, we have a very high service level and an understanding that, um, it's, it, it's not right until it's right. And we'd rather have a conflict early and say, "What we're talking about isn't gonna work," or, "That budget isn't gonna cover it," or, uh, "Technically speaking, can't solve this problem the way you'd like it."

And so we'd rather have those conflicts and deliver an amazing project at the end. having a few more resources, 'cause, uh, staff costs and so on are a bit lower here, means we can put some more time into let us analyze that and show you why we're proposing what we're proposing. So Mexico's just been an amazing launchpad. when I came here, it was still considered very dangerous. I got in the car, uh, being picked up at the airport, uh, by my, my then girlfriend's friend. [00:32:00] Uh, um, and it was like, "Lock the doors." And these days, you know, you can walk around at 3:00 in the morning

Dan Ryan: I have.

Thomas Paterson: It's safe. Yeah. You know, and it's-- So Mexi- Mexico is just a different place now. And I mean, just, just, just to do the, uh, um, uh, that I, that I should do, there are dangerous parts of Mexico, along the border and don't go places and so on. Uh, but Mexico City is safer than Chicago, and we work in, in the south side of Chicago on projects too you know, uh, it's it's just been a wonderful place to be.

Uh, the people have been fantastic. The environment's been fantastic. It's, it's lovely

Dan Ryan: Um, I wanna go back to that, uh, metaphor of a cocoon,

Thomas Paterson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Give an example of when a project where maybe they wanted to have this cocoon or this feeling of warmth. Again, I'm going against that ideal setup

Mm-hmm.[00:33:00]

Of when you're at the table early. But when is a time when they wanted to have this warmth or cocoon and they just weren't hitting it, and they brought you and your team in, and then how did you actually address it to, to, to get that cocoon just right?

Thomas Paterson: That-- Yeah, that's a really good question. I think one of the things is to think about lighting in different language than most people use. Do you use downlights? Do you use decoratives? Do you use this? Do... Mm. Start with how much contrast do you have? You know, is it moody? Meaning, you know, bright, bright features on the, on the flower arrangement, on the reception desk, uh, on the, on the liquor for sale in the bar, uh, on the art on the walls, and then largely dark in between. do they have lots of general light? If it's a business hotel, you probably want a bit more general light. You certainly do in the spaces where people might pull out a laptop, So contrast is one. Then tone. Uh, you know, is, is [00:34:00] this warm? How warm is it? candlelight is beautiful, and it's great for a luxury resort, but it's probably not appropriate for a city business hotel.

Hmm.

You know, so tone becomes a big issue. Um, and we, we work-- we did some consulting for a global, uh, brand that you all know,

Where they, they found that the lighting design they'd been using in their stores for most of a decade wasn't working. used to feel fabulous, and now it was feeling dead, and they were mystified as to why. And the answer was really, really simple. The tone they were using was reasonable at the light levels they had originally, but as energy code had come in and the amount of light you were allowed was going down, enough light to feel good. You know, cool light can feel, can feel great in a, an ice skating rink or a, [00:35:00] um, you know, a, a sports store or something like that. But if you have too little of it, then you get the experience of a, of a parking garage, you know. The same quality of light, but suddenly there's not enough of it to feel good.

Hmm

we literally said to them, "You just need to drop your tone three color temperatures down." at 4,500 Kelvin, and we took them down to 3,400 Kelvin or something for, for those who, who care

Dan Ryan: Did that involve all switch out or were they like LEDs that you could set the s- s- you could set the color or warmth or whatever it is?

Thomas Paterson: we were purely consulting in a very general sense. All of their buildings going forward went to 3,400 Kelvin with accents at 2,700 Kelvin.

Right

some of them were tunable fortunately, some of them were not, uh, and I don't know how they addressed it. And 2700 is very, very, uh, shifted to red, right? That's, that's very, very warm. That's like orange, like a flame

No, so that's, that's the reputation it has. Um, [00:36:00] the... It, it's basically the coolest of the hotel warms, if you wanna think of it from a

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow

Thomas Paterson: point of view. Um, it's an un-undimmed incandescent light bulb, but when you dim an incandescent light bulb, it gets warmer and warmer and warmer. So when you run a light bulb at 5%, it's this really warm tone, not LED, but you know, wh-when, when you do that. So candlelight is 2,000 Kelvin. So 2,700 Kelvin is your sort of neutral starting point if you don't have an opinion in hospitality.

Hmm

But, um, you know, a typical Four Seasons would rarely have much over 2,500 Kelvin. Um, a lot of what's happening now is, is using what's called dim to warm, which is, uh, LED lamps, which as you dim them, they get warmer. You'll also hear about tunable white, where you can actually tune your color and your brightness, which is fine. It's just a lot more technology to make it happen, um, and a lot more programming and a lot more precision, whereas dim to warm tends to scale. The amount of light is always right for [00:37:00] the tone of light. Um, when you take like a 2,700 Kelvin that everyone knows and you dim it down, it-- without it being a, a dim to warm, it's what we call dim to gray, DTG.

Hmm

uh, you know, it just gets grayer and kind of, ugh, as you get down to low light levels. So those fixed color temperatures are a real problem for spaces you need to dim a lot. I think, uh, I, I think, uh, it was Adi Smith, the, uh, lighting designer who, uh, uh, um, instead of calling it dim to gray, she calls it dim to grim. Uh, and emotionally, I'm, I'm entirely on board with her.

Dan Ryan: So I, uh, you were mentioning incandescent lights a bunch. I, I don't remember if I read this recently or heard this in an interview, but there are benefits to infrared light, health benefits to infrared light. And apparently the incandescents, even though they use-- they, they draw way more power, um, [00:38:00] in our, all of our homes everywhere, we were somehow deriving benefit from the infrared light that was coming from the incandescents in our, in our lodging or where we spend most of our life, in our homes, apartments, whatever.

And the shift to LED has been amazing from an energy perspective, but... And the world's kind of gone a little bit crazy. Uh, so I know you're, you're not a doctor, you don't-- or a scientist, and you don't play one on TV, but do you think maybe the, the craziness going on in everyone could have a little bit of something to do with the fact that we, we have less sources of infrared light in our homes?

Thomas Paterson: N-no and yes. I, I, I mean, I, I, I think... I mean, fi-first of all, just, just to sort of flag this, this is culture wars territory.

Dan Ryan: Oh, is it? Okay.

The,

So I don't know. I-

Thomas Paterson: Well, so, so the, the, the Democrats have, have, uh, in, in the States have, have banned, uh, incandescents to force people into higher efficiency light sources. [00:39:00] The Republicans always kind of try and bring them back, and it's been, it's been whipsawing for the last five rounds of elections, and consistency would be better than, better than whipsawing just from a, you know, rational markets point of view. Um, the... What we've done is really homogenized the environments we exist in.

So we have all these incredibly controlled light sources. So LED is very controlled, although the dim to warm gives you more variation and more texture. I went through LaGuardia, which is a fabulously designed airport. This is...

Dan Ryan: no, it's crazy to actually hear people say this now, and I, from my experience too, LaGuardia is awesome. And let's just s- let that sit for a second. LaGuardia rules

Thomas Paterson: But then you see all of the restaurants and they've all used exactly the same color temperature in LED, and there's no variability in it. And there's something about them having used the right color of light, but too homogenous. Now, what incandescent gave you and what dim to warm does, and there's just a bit more chaos in the programming, [00:40:00] is richness of experience. And one of the things interior designers really bring to lighting design is the variation in light sources. You know, this thing's behind a shade, this thing's inside a shield, this thing's just lighting down. So all that decorative lighting is bringing you richness in light. So the first thing I would say is, I'll come back to the infrared specifically, but we've just homogenized everything. And it's not that having incandescent heat everywhere you go would be a good thing, but it's that there are moments when you want to gather around a fire,

Yeah

taken that sensation out of the place. Um, as, as a, as a guy with a little bit, bit thinning on top, miss the AR111s, the, the sort of big spotlights that they used to have, uh, in, in all of the sort of famous hotels, uh, that pushed radiant heat.

You would feel it on the top of your head. It wasn't comfortable. it depends on how much and where. Um, we need to do much better job of making [00:41:00] light positive. Like, wellness is not about, um, uh, a- about the various metrics of how much light. You wanna know what's healthy? Bunch of daylight or real brightness early in the day and maintain it fairly

Totally

through the day.

What's healthy at night? The reverse. Take it away, take it down, take it low, less. Because one thing's supposed to be the pick you up, and one's supposed to just let you drop down. There's no lighting to help you get into the night. There is lighting to not fuck it up,

Hmm.

And too

So

lighting fucks it up

Dan Ryan: on, on the other side of that coin, or maybe further down that road, I've been to China, I don't know, 80 or 100 times over the past 20-something years. I haven't been in a handful of years. But one of the things I was always shocked by is, you know, I'm driving out to some factory in the hinterlands, like inland way deep, and y- going past all these [00:42:00] housing blocks or, or, or cabins, and I see this a lot in the developing world as well.

Um, although China is way more than developing right now. It's pretty awesome. Um, those little apartments or you look in, you p- I love peering in as I'm driving past on the freeway or down roads, and just everyone in that super cool white light in their apartments, like from some energy efficient LED bulb.

And I'm always like, "Oh my God," it feels like they're, they're in a, like in a, a veterinary or like an o- or a hospital operating room. You know? It's just so clinical and, and cool, and I just... I don't know, it's just shocking to me

Thomas Paterson: Yeah, there's, there's, there's a theory that says that, that this is a cultural thing, that, that different places have different cultural needs for light, and there's certainly some truth to that. Um, my kids live in Sweden with their mother and, uh, know, lots of candles and so on are, are part of the experience and so on.

Um, so there are, there are cultural things, but they're less fixed than you might think.

Hmm

So I've been going to [00:43:00] the Middle East for 25, uh, coming on for 30 years now, and people used to say there's a strong preference for cold white light there. And certainly there was a prevalence, a very high prevalence of that. But if you look at what the wealthy people there are doing, ones or people who are, you know, quite upper middle class, their colors are getting warmer and warmer and their light levels are going lower and lower. So the convergence of when you have choice is a major factor. And what you gotta think about is where do people make the decision to buy those light bulbs? So in trader cultures, and it actually correlates more with trader culture than north-south. Um, in trader cultures like Dubai, where the Dubai ports were where things came into the Middle East and were distributed, would show you a light bulb in the middle of the day and it had to look bright for you to...

for them to sell you a case of them. So electricians would come in and say, "Oh, you know, show me the light bulbs you're selling." They would stick two wires on the end of the light bulb and it would glow. And in the middle of the day in, in, uh, Arabian [00:44:00] sunlight, cool white light looked generous, and if you put warm white light, it looked dull and flat and less.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow

Thomas Paterson: So people were buying based on the perception that they were getting better value, and then that became the norm. trader culture driven. If on the other hand, you come at people through the interior designer and show them lit space and a warm lit space, the vast majority will choose the warm lit space. So it's how you're acquiring it and how you're making those decisions. A lighting designer or a visual professional of some sort should be asking the question, "In the experience you're gonna have, what do you need?" So what do you need is also a time of day question. Go into your bathroom, turn the lights on. Right now during the day, you're not the slightest bit bothered by it. Go in at night and you're like, "Oh God, I wish I had a little night light." Right? Same light. So why is it affecting you? 'Cause your body is different at different times of day. So you have to ask these questions of like, at this time of [00:45:00] day in this use, how does it make you feel? And those cultures as they have the luxury not just to have an electrician buy the most efficient thing, generally trending warmer. There are exceptions,

but Yeah. I, it's interesting 'ca- I, I never would've thought about it that way because if I've, you know, having gone to Ch- been going to China since 2001, um, where most people when they come to the, the coastal regions, they're, they're from the outer provinces. They come in, they live, they live out there, and then they go home for Chinese New Year, which is, like, the largest mass migration anywhere.

Dan Ryan: Um But I would enve- envision that maybe back then, for them to come t- and have these apartments or housing blocks, they might have been in more of a farm or agrarian s- place, so that coming into these kind of more clean, well-lit places, to quote Hemingway, uh, to have that cooler, brighter light... Oh, I never thought about that from the vibe perspective.

Thomas Paterson: it's al- it's

Dan Ryan: It's very different from what they would've come [00:46:00] up with or gr- grown up with. Hmm.

Thomas Paterson: And you and I spend a lot of time working for d- for developers, and sometimes you have to ask yourself: What's the developer's motivation? Now, in, in hospitality, you're asking for people to come back, you're asking for reviews, you're asking for all those things that build the, the snowball rolling down the hill. But a developer who is selling, an apartment building, uh, if the... a huge difference in what you should spend on, on condo lighting and on rental lighting. But say it's condo lighting. You're thinking about buying this place. It's the biggest purchase you're ever gonna make in your life. You're stressed about the on-costs and so on. You walk into a low-lit place and you think, "Oh, God, if I, if I buy this place, I'm gonna have to spend money adding lighting." But you walk into an over-lit, over-cool space, you walk in and go, "Well, I can always turn them off and, and put in some table lamps." you've avoided a point of resistance to the sale

Uh, no

on the condo development. a, on a rental, it's even worse because [00:47:00] the developer has to own those lights for the next 30 years and maintain them,

and they have to make the sale every time they change tenants. And so, you know, if you're renting, you don't want to think, "Oh God, now I need to go out and buy all these lights to make this thing work." Either you already have them and you're like, "I'll just turn it off and I've already got lights," or you think, "Ugh, it works for now and I can get stuff later." So it's points of resistance. A developer has a different agenda than maybe aesthetics or psychology or whatever, and they're valid agendas, but that is also how you end up with massively over-lit developments because the developer just doesn't want to lose a sale because it was under-lit.

Dan Ryan: I don't know when this is gonna air, but it is April right now, and it is Earth Month. So just-- I wanna bring up a sustainability question because there's a hotel up the road in New Haven, and it was the first time I'd ever seen lighting over Ethernet or Cat5, I forget what they were called.

So it's direct current. You don't need an electrician to install it. It's-- You basically have server racks on every [00:48:00] floor, and it draws even less power than just a regular LED

Thomas Paterson: Line voltage,

Dan Ryan: a 120 volts or 220, wherever you are. Um, what's your experience on that? And apparently you don't need electricians to run the cable because it's not-- you're not running high voltage wire.

What is-- What are your thoughts on that? Or-- And A, and B, you know, what, what role does sustainability play in speccing long-term and long-term design thinking within your lighting bailiwick?

Thomas Paterson: Yeah. I mean, two, two huge topics. So, I mean, the specifics of, um, power over Ethernet for lighting, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Um, you do have to have skilled people. may not be electricians, but they're skilled people to plug it in. Um, have to be able to configure things digitally and so on. So you're looking at a different skill set, and you can alienate the electricians you're using for the rest of the building because they

Oh,

of doing[00:49:00]

could mess you up

Right. So you do have to be a little bit thoughtful about that, and you have to think about your skill set. We do some hospitality in, in airports, uh, you know, uh, lounges and so on, and, um, you have a real issue there that the electricians who are working there are primarily there because they're licensed to carry knives in airports.

You know, there's a whole, like, skill set that has nothing to do with their lighting skills. So we've actually simplified the types of controls we use, and I wouldn't use that in an airport then you're asking for multiple skill sets. So I think that stuff, uh, power over Ethernet for lighting is interesting. be very risk-averse at the moment. You'd do it with, a lead from, uh, the, the, the, the flag who wants to do a test case and is happy to run some risk. You wouldn't run-- You wouldn't decide as a designer that you're gonna do that 'cause it's great. it is coming, and there is gonna be more of that. Um, in terms of the environmental side of things, the [00:50:00] biggest problem with lighting at the moment is that all the LEDs are integrated into the light fixture, and when they fail,

Oh.

The whole damn light fixture. And

I didn't think about that

sourcing, and especially in hospitality, where you've got a lot of custom light fixtures and so on. So our advice is actually really, smart dumb.

Hmm

Use screw-in light bulbs because you can take it out and put something else in. And if you think about the screw-in light bulb, that's been around for 150 years.

Yeah

is always gonna be someone making something which can go into that. But if you get a custom board engineered into your sideboard table, and that board fails,

Dan Ryan: Oh, if that circuit fries, then you... Yeah. Okay, so another question. How many lighting designers does it take to change a light bulb?

Thomas Paterson: we, we assign it to the, the electrical contractor. That's their problem. Um, my, my, my fa- my favorite of those jokes is, uh, how many, how many, uh, therapists does it take to change a light bulb?

Dan Ryan: Oh, I don't know

Thomas Paterson: Only one, but it has to want to change.

Dan Ryan: Oh, good. Yes. You have to want to change [00:51:00] before you can change

Thomas Paterson: Uh, but the, uh, the, the skills on this stuff actually is a really valid point. Like, we try... I-in a perfect world in a hotel, you have if it fits, it's right. So the Edison screw E26 light bulb base, only one light bulb fits in that. The little G9 wedge base, only one light bulb type fits in that. If you can get it down to just that, the maintenance guys can order everything just from one supplier.

They can have their equivalents that changes over time, and if it fits, it's right, and they don't have to train someone to do it. They don't have to label everything. They don't have to read everything. Oh, such a saving. But that requires real dedication, not just from the lighting designer, but especially the interior designer on decoratives and, and, and people like yourself supplying to hold to that policy

Dan Ryan: how much less power does an LED draw than an incandescent? [00:52:00] And then if you were to put that on a gradient, like how much less power does the Cat5 draw typically than a, a new LE- or an LED light?

Thomas Paterson: incandescent to LED should be about 10 to one or 15 to one, as in each incandescent light bulb takes 10 times as much power as an LED.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow.

Thomas Paterson: huge savings.

Dan Ryan: That's crazy

Thomas Paterson: it... Yeah, like f- I, I'm, I'm sympathetic to, to the sort of different qualities of light in incandescent and so on, but if you think about just how much energy, it is real.

It's very,

very real. Um, and then going from, uh, line voltage to, um, power over Ethernet for, for your, um, LEDs might save you 3% or 4%. You know,

Dan Ryan: Oh, so it's not tr- it's not tremendous 'cause you still gotta power all those server racks and, 'cause I think they plug into those

Thomas Paterson: They, they, they do, but, but looking at the whole thing, including all that stuff, it is, is probably 3% to 5%. It might be as much as 10%,

Hmm

but it's, [00:53:00] it's not, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's not that substantial. And you have to look at the life cycle as well. If that fixture is now integrated LED rather than a screw-in bulb, you have to replace the whole fixture when it fails. And hotels are running 24 hours a day in their public spaces,

Yeah

you might actually only be getting eight to 10 years out of a light fixture. if you had a screw-in light bulb, you might get 30 years out of it. So I'm a Luddite on this in some ways, but I'm a Luddite because those things have been replaceable over the course of 150 years, and worry about anything which is too specific. Um, you know, we, we have a, a, an architect who just recently moved office, and they wanted to move their lights with them, and they needed a few more lights 'cause they were moving to a bigger space. And the manufacturer, the controls manufacturer who provided the lights as well, their response was, "Oh, that's gen two, not gen three. If you want more lights, you're gonna have to replace them all." And it's like, they're four years old.

Dan Ryan: [00:54:00] Wow.

Thomas Paterson: it's a, it's a real consideration.

Dan Ryan: I keep forgetting that those LED bulbs last for 30 freaking years. That's so crazy to me.

Thomas Paterson: Well,

So

hang, hang, hang on. Th- th- no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying actually.

Oh.

The, the, the, the LED and the driver might last eight or 10 years if it's running 24 hours a day.

Dan Ryan: Ah

Thomas Paterson: Aha. I- in your

Dan Ryan: But the actual LED may last longer, but it's outliving all the circuitry to get it to function

Thomas Paterson: exactly right. Yeah, yeah, totally. And, and plus in your house, for example, you probably only have your lights on for three to five hours a night,

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Thomas Paterson: so you're not using very much of their life. But in a hotel where you're running 24/7, you're

really consuming it. So 50,000 hours is a typical number that people would quote, and, and, and that's seven years.

Dan Ryan: so seven years, 30 years, 50 years, what have you.

Thomas Paterson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Um, as you look forward in what you do and your vocation and passion, what's [00:55:00] exciting you the most about what you see out there?

Thomas Paterson: We just keep getting more opportunities. Um, I think of it's to do with the specifics of Lux Populi, some of it is also just more interesting circumstances are asking for lighting, and more of them are asking the first principles question of what can lighting do for us, as opposed to make this pretty or make

No

or take away the dark. Um, so people are just much more adventurous about light working for them. Um, we designed a tunnel in Australia recently where the lighting both keeps drivers more alert, and it's now the gateway to Sydney. You can

All

the question, you know, "Are we there yet?" And the parents say, "Not until we see the trees." it's, you know, the, the trees that, trees that we lit as part of the experience of the tunnel. You know, people are using light in more interesting ways, and we're having to do less of the dumb stuff, and the next five years are gonna see huge [00:56:00] amounts of the dumb part of what we do, just the process work going away.

And so we get to do more and more interesting things, and it's fantastic

Dan Ryan: I love the bridge meta-- uh, not metaphor, but actual example you gave in Sydney because I grew up in New Jersey. We would drive into New York City all the time and go over the George Washington Bridge, and it was this huge gray steel monolith. And I don't know when it changed, but maybe sometime after I moved here or while I, while I moved here from 2005 or maybe before, they-- I don't know how many, I don't know how much money they invested in lighting up that thing,

Mm-hmm.

But it breathed new life into it.

It made me think that this really is not a shitty experience driving across this bridge, whether you're on George or Martha, which is the lower level. It just, it was all... It j- it, it breathed new life into old infrastructure. It was pr- it-- I don't know. It's great. I w- I wish I knew more about light, and now I know more about light than I did when I started this.

So, um, Thomas, I wanna say thank you. Thank you. Gracias. [00:57:00] Um, and yeah, if people wanted to learn more about you or Lux Populi or how to get in touch or learn about what we do, what you do, what's a good way for them to do that?

Thomas Paterson: So if people just want a little bit of, uh, archiporn, they can, they can follow us on, uh, on Instagram, uh, um, at, uh, luxpopuli_lightingdesign. Um, want to connect professionally, uh, LinkedIn is always the right place for me. Um, I find it the place where and practical conversations happen and, uh, it's, it's lovely to be connected somewhere where you can see what someone else does and who they are

instantly. 'Cause I wanna know who I'm talking to. the question which, uh, which, um, I've been instructed 'cause we're, we're too much work on at the moment is, "Don't ask people what they do, don't ask them what they need, and don't ask how, how you can help them." You know, we, we need to slow down. Uh, what I love about, uh, those sorts of environments is I can see what you're about.

I'm more interested in you than I am in... You, you know what I mean? Like, so that's, that's the place to find us and engage with [00:58:00] us.

Dan Ryan: Wonderful. And what kind of lighting porn was it?

Thomas Paterson: Uh, arch- or just general archiporn. You

Dan Ryan: Oh, archiporn. Okay. I thought it, I thought it was a different word for lighting. I was like, oh, archim- So my, my fetish with r- with respect to architecture is I love cabin porn, cabin and tree house porn. I can go and look at Instagram feeds or watch YouTube videos of cabins or coffee table books for tree house, and actually what makes them all amazing is when they're lit up like a candle from within, right?

That warm glow. So now I know it... The-- What makes the archiporn even better is the lighting.

Thomas Paterson: I like to think so

Dan Ryan: There we go. Okay. Well, I just wanna say, give you a wholehearted thank you, uh, from, from the light of my heart. Thank you very much. Um, this has been wonderful and educational for me. I hope everyone learned as much as I did, and if this changed your way about, or your ideas about lighting or lighting for hospitality, or you know someone who could benefit from it, please [00:59:00] pass this along.

We grow a lot by word of mouth. And don't forget to smash that subscribe button, check into the Substack, and leave comments and feedback, and thank you. Because without all of that stuff, I wouldn't be here talking to Thomas in Mexico City. Thank you all.