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Welcome to Build Horizons. I'm Jeff, that's Katy, and this is our first one.
Build Horizons is the show about doing the hard thing before you feel ready, becoming someone new in the process. If you're done waiting for permission and ready to build a life of your choosing, this one's for you.
all right you ready i think so but for
real this time for real
oh got to click the things click the
buttons be ready and three two one
to make it happen
i'm jeff that's katie and katie to kick
things off today i have a question what
because i mean
we're gonna we're gonna do a little bit
of a show about how to make it happen and
i'm gonna
we're gonna do a little bit of a show
about how to make it happen and i'm gonna
do a little bit
of a show about how to make it happen and
i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about
how to make
a show about how to make it happen and i'm
gonna do a little bit of a show about how
to make
a show about how to make it happen and i'm
gonna do a little bit of a show about how
to make
a show about how to make it happen and i'm
gonna do a little bit of a show about how
to make
we're gonna get into the like what even
this is um and why we're doing it uh and
and other things
about our crazy selves and crazy lives
but before we do that i feel like we
should answer a question
who the heck are you who the heck am i um
okay my name's katie as you know um so jeff
you've been
asking to do this for a while and it's
tremendously out of my comfort zone so i
just kept saying i
don't think i need to do this but here we
are we're starting a podcast so um i'm
katie and um
yeah i how much like how much detail
should i go into with i mean i am i guess
uh i guess right off
the top so what are the the handful of
things that you feel like like if you had
to condense
yourself down into a single list of five
things what do you feel like those five
things would be
sure um okay we don't have to get too
serious like
uh but like what are the things you enjoy
doing okay so yeah um so i have we or we
we have two
children um so i'm a mother and they're
so fun kids are so much fun i love the
ages that we're
at right now i feel like you just blew
past it so yeah we're married uh yeah we're
married
we've been married for 15 years we just
hit our 15th um wedding anniversary yes
yep um but yeah
we have two kiddos and they're really fun
and cool and um they are seven and
nine nine almost ten almost double digits
which is bizarre to my brain but
yep such as life i know it goes fast you've
uh you've ran for a long time
yep um yeah sorry yeah just a few things
about me too um i have um been running uh
more for just
like healthy lifestyle nothing too
serious at all um and yeah i like to work
out i think it's
fun and i like to push myself see what i'm
capable of and i know something that
obviously as the
intro showed like we've done some races
together um kind of been on a little bit
of a journey on
that which i know we're gonna get way
more into um i also i love reading books
we love reading
different books though yeah we'll we'll
get into that i'm i'm sure um so i'll i'll
do my part now
so i'm jeff and i'm married to that one
lots of uh
lots of things that we will definitely
want to get into on the pod but uh i me
myself like i i've
big aspirations uh i i am a creative
person at heart i like making things i
think uh that is
like at the core of why i want to do this
is i just i really have a lot of fun in
the creative
process um i think that there's a lot of
stuff that i've learned uh through the
course of my
life on how to um to to make big changes
to uh to make you know like like i said
at the top you know picking picking that
life that you
want to lead and not just going down the
path that you are going down because that's
the path
that you're going down and that's a path
that uh that feels comfortable uh or that
you've made
comfortable uh it it's hard to make
change but it's it's less complicated
than i had thought
and it's way more possible than i had
thought especially a younger version of
myself um as far
as you know other things uh
in the last few years i've become a
runner um i i've gotten a lot healthier
uh during that time
i have a job that i love um and i but
that said though like i i really love
making things i love
working so um you know a lot of what we've
done with our business and um the things
that surround
that like that takes up a lot of time
like i don't i used to play a lot of
video games and
stuff like that it's definitely like a
thing i enjoy but not a thing that i have
done in my
life that i've done much of at all i mean
other than like the occasional thing uh
with our son
um i really don't spend any time doing
video games things like that where
whereas i used to you know
that was just kind of a thing to pass
time um but yeah so right now my my time
when i'm not at uh
work work and all the things that that is
my my hobby so to speak is also just
working more uh
which sounds crazy but this is like the
most happiest season i've ever personally
been the
my life to date and i'm having a lot of
fun doing it so while i do you know wake
up and the first
thing i do is work and the last thing i
do to go before i go to bed is work um i
i still am having
a lot of fun um but yeah so i i guess to
to transition us a little bit i i'd like
to talk
about um you know what why why it is that
we're making this and you know why what
are some things
about this um that would help
someone know like is this the sort of
thing that i would be interested in
listening to
yeah i think that's definitely something
like what does what does build horizons
mean and how did we
land on that and um what are things that
we're going to be talking about like who
are we making
this for um i do think like you mentioned
is change and making those big steps in
your life
kind of felt really hard
and impossible um and you know i i know i'm
guilty uh feeling very stuck and not able
to
make the steps or take the steps
necessary to have big changes in my life
and to build upon those and
i do think that um i don't know
especially watching you jeff and i know
like as you said you're a
really creative person and you love to
create things which is part of the reason
why we're
being on the outside and watching you go
through some building blocks of your life
and changing so
many things has been really cool and i do
think i'm like i don't want to keep this
story just
for us like i think a lot of people could
benefit from it so anyways yeah i i think
like who are we
making this for and um like who who will
want to listen to this podcast yeah and i
i mean you know
if you're completely happy with what you're
doing i'm going to be happy with what you're
doing and
happy and content with exactly where you
are then this is probably not for you i
mean because
really what it is is uh you know i want
to like when i look at myself in in five
years from now
what what do i how would i describe that
and how would i how would i uh envision
that being if if
everything goes well or like you know
what are some of the good outcomes that
the next five
years could bring and then it it's like
how do i have that vision and then make
that be reality
and uh a lot of it is the the not sexy
work of doing the the day-to-day and the
process of doing
it and falling in love with that um and
and being okay with stuff that takes a
long time to achieve
and uh kind of being willing to do stuff
that doesn't make a lot of sense in the
moment and
people might think you're crazy you might
think that you're crazy um i know i
certainly have felt
that way at times uh but but what you
what you get to is uh a place where where
that's okay like i can
work with my wife and we can do that
sitting in our basement with this cool
little thing that we
built and and we can do that on episode
one and right now it doesn't make a lick
of sense spoiler
like nothing makes a lick of sense when
you're a first starting out um you know i
i can uh just
real quick i could i could share a little
bit about like how i started running and
uh i think
what i'm talking about when in both on
how to make it happen but um now you also
what what the
what the process feels like well and like
i just want to say too like i am in
general
such a risk adverse person like i don't i
don't like risk i like comfortable i like
comfort zones
um and even like really doing this
this podcast together like is me building
something here it's me um i mean i know
you're
going to get into your story and it'll be
so interesting and fun to see where this
goes like
even for myself and um i know like right
now we have so many things we're building
on and have so
much fun to talk about but yeah i think
even as episode one like just
understanding like this is
what i'm building on and um
uh typically like very risk adverse
person stepping out and doing this thing
with our
husband so i think it'll be really fun to
see that and like also like hearing what
you've
already managed to achieve through this
process and this mindset of um i don't
know i know you
were going to get into running and but i
feel like there's like so many ripple
effects too
of like how this mindset has like like
literally changed your life changed our
lives um
but anyways yeah i would like talk about
i always think it's so fun to hear your
story of how you
started running it is a little bit
ridiculous but like i'm curious uh i don't
know that i've
asked this specifically to you before but
like what what was the experience from
your perspective
when you said you were gonna run yeah
okay well do you want me to just like
jump right in yeah
oh my gosh okay well i had so i've always
like i said i've always been a runner but
i've always
just done like i've always been a runner
and i've always been a runner and i've
always been a runner
little 5ks or maybe a 10k but 10k was
like really pushing it for me and um but
like in general i'd
run a couple times a week a few times a
week like three miles like just to stay
like healthy and i
have a lot of heart disease in my family
so it was something like i've always been
pretty mindful of
of like okay i gotta i gotta be mindful
of my cardiovascular health um but
anyways so i had
just signed up with a friend to do a half
marathon for the first time and i was
like
i don't even think i had started training
yet um but you were a little bit like
skeptical of the
amount of training that was gonna take
like and like i had you know mentioned
like oh my goodness
like what would it be like to run a full
marathon and you're like that would take
way too much time
like can you imagine how many hours of
running you would have to do and i'm like
yeah it would
be a lot like that would be a lot what
kind of crazy person would sign
themselves up like
like hey do you be running for like four
hours a day or a week and
and like i don't know not a day that
would be crazy but um anyways so had just
signed up i think
like i just signed up i don't think i had
like i don't know i can't really remember
that you had
just signed up yeah and so then i was
working um from home like because as i do
i work from
home i didn't mention that in my little
intro but you know not super relevant
right yeah but
i was working i just remember working and
katie identifies as someone who works
from home yes
it's one of her top five yes one of my
top five i don't even think i got through
five but that's
fine um one and a half anyways um so you
came down and you were honestly kind of
emotional
and i do think we'll probably have some
tears on this podcast eventually because
jeff does
he's very in touch you're just gonna out
me like that yeah how did you just say
that i'm very in
touch with my emotions thank you you're
welcome i'm very in touch with my
emotions yeah um my
cry um anyways so then i i don't know i
just remember i was working and you came
down you
were a little emotional and you started
telling me about a video that you would
watch that had
really inspired you and i think then we
actually went and watched the video
together and you were
like i'm gonna start running and i'm like
yeah and you were like i did it i i
signed up for prairie
fire and i was like because there's like
different like races in prairie fire i'm
like like the like
the two mile or like the 5k you're like
no the half marathon and i was like oh
okay here we go
like i was a little skeptical because i
knew how much you hated running yeah i i
mean and i did
like viscerally hated running yeah pretty
pretty lifelong advocate that uh people
who run long
distance or just endurance athletes in
general are crazy people um still not
entirely sure that
that was a misheld belief um but yeah i i
did it was um you know i i watched a
random casey
neistat video and uh it was about him
running and i've always found the idea or
the allure of
like people who do that uh to be really
fascinating like and i feel like inspired
by it but i could
never like picture myself as a person who
would run like i i hated it i i remember
a lot of times
um like during the beginning days of the
pandemic i was trying to lose a little
bit of weight and i
would go on the treadmill and if i could
uh walk at a pace on a just enough of an
incline that i
could burn uh 100 calories per 10 minutes
or something like that i can't remember
what the
output was what resulted in the amount of
calories that i wanted to burn um and i i
just it's like how
could i achieve what i want to achieve in
this case losing weight by doing the
absolute least
amount of physical effort humanly
possible um like that was my mentality
because anything beyond that
was just unfathomably uncomfortable and
unfathomably not what i was going to be
doing um
um but i always
like i wanted to be the person who would
do that like and i'll talk about that in
a little bit like
yeah um there's a big difference though
between um wanting something and then
actually pursuing
that long term yeah um and so like uh you
know there were times where i would want
to be in
shape or i'd want to work out and i would
like for about as long as my willpower
would last and
sometimes that would be like a day
sometimes that would be a week or a month
um maybe typically
though it was a lot closer to that than i
would want to be in shape and i would
want to be in
shape um and so i would have all these
big things and i would like you know like
okay i'm gonna i'm
gonna do this thing um but it wasn't
actually aligned with my beliefs and my
priorities and
the things that i like actually uh like
that that were a part of my identity it
was just something
that i wanted yeah um but i didn't want
it uh in the way that i want to be laying
around and
being lazy and stuff like i i really
wanted to do that more and so that's what
i would do
so i i watched this video uh and i'm like
oh man i like i want to be the person who
does this
and so i saw myself up so there's like
some commitment there i have some skin in
the game
right yeah um and and then i went on a
run and i ran i think two and a half
miles if i recall i'd
have to go back and look at the the the
recording of that run but i uh which we
do have like yeah
you had video
yeah
vlogged kind of the journey of this which
i thought was so like vulnerable because
like i'm
i never remember thinking like oh i don't
want him to like go back and look at
these videos and like
if he doesn't make it like and feel that
regret but also like however many years
what three years
down the road i'm like oh my gosh i'm so
glad i'm so glad we have those to go back
and look at
yeah and like to reflect on yeah it is
cool like i think
you have like every every single one of
those miles at the beginning i have uh
either the
recording of like me running on the
treadmill uh or i have you know the the
recording on my
watch as we went for a run um and stuff
like that so i have a lot of data uh and
a lot of
um yeah a lot of that time is captured
which is really really neat yeah um but
yeah like i i ran
that two and a half miles and i remember
thinking like what the flying frick did i
sign myself up
for because i signed that i signed up for
a half marathon yeah uh prior to actually
running more
than a single mile um and so when i went
on that run it was like a really windy
day um and it was
truly miserable as running is like it is
a miserable experience especially when
you're
first starting out oh it's yeah it's such
a hard sport it's such a hard activity to
just
jump into literally and that was what you
did there was no gosh i'm trying to even
think
like had you done anything that tough in
years like maybe high school yeah i mean
it had certainly
been a long time yeah i was well and
properly out of shape um but the the
thing that i did though
and like the the reason why i stayed with
it was um you know i for one i had signed
myself up for
something and i'm a little bit stubborn
and so uh you know i i'm going to try to
follow through
with something if I commit to it. And I
do have that sense of obligation. And so
even if it is
as silly as like, well, I'm going to have
wasted 120 bucks and feel silly to my
wife, that's enough
to at least get me part of the way there.
But the other thing about that was I
spent my free time
became the pursuit of knowledge on
running. How do people do, what do people
do with running?
How do they become good? What are the
stuff, learning about shoes and fueling
and really
just surrounding myself with that
knowledge. Because if you're a runner,
those are the sort
of things that runners do. They have some
sort of knowledge about their thing. And
so
I poured myself into that. I found a
couple of things online that I enjoyed
following,
found a podcast I like listening to. I
read like, I don't know, probably 10
books.
Yeah. You like fully immersed yourself.
Fully immersed myself. And I've learned
that lesson in myself on how do I change
my identity?
Or how do I change like my core beliefs?
And I think too, I know-
We're kind of talking about running, but
you had, and you know, we're going to
have lots
of podcast episodes, but there had been a
journey that you had been down already
changing this about
yourself. So this was something like you
had done before. And so you knew it was
possible.
And one thing I think we really epically
failed at like explaining to however many
people watch
this.
Thousands, if not millions.
Yeah. Right.
So we have actually been together since I
was 15 and Jeff was 16 years old, which I
know is like
not a normal thing. So I think like we
have literally grown up together. So like
I've seen
so much of Jeff's journey. He's seen so
much of mine. And so I know you mentioned
that you're a
very stubborn person. And so like, I can
attest to that. Like you are a very
stubborn person,
but, but sometimes that is, has equaled
to be a very, very stubborn person.
Yeah. Yeah. And like, I guess to, to take
a step back. So you know, at the, at the
top of the top
of the show, I talked about me being a
creative person and I have big
aspirations. And and so to
add the context that Katy's talking
about, I, I kind of numbed that through
alcohol, like,
and that became my default. So like, I
have these big aspirations. I have all
these things I want
to do. I'm not able to make it happen.
The thing that makes that feel better is
this drug. And
for, for many, many years. And so when I
fixed that problem that was through very
similar things
I just talked about with running, which
is like, yeah, I'm going to listen to
podcasts. I'm going
to read a thousand books because like I
had, I had tried other paths through that.
And it was,
it really came down to like, what do I
really like in my core believe? And I, I
believed that
I couldn't make that change. I believe
that that was a part of me that like,
that was unchangeable
that it was immutable. And in reality, if
all these things that we are like, we are
malleable
people, like, uh, our, our core beliefs
can change the things that we find most
important can be
modified. And, and then, then it just
becomes as easy as just doing what I want
to do. Um, and,
and so like, I applied that, uh, those
lessons to running and, and did very much
the same,
similar thing of like, I'm going to find
some podcasts that I,
I love, and I'm going to, to listen to a
whole backlog of episodes about running.
And I'm going to read a ton of books. I'm
going to look online for anything that
anybody has ever
mentioned about a book that they've liked,
and I'm going to buy it on audible and it's
going to cost
me $200 worth of audible credits. Um, but
if it is even 10% helpful, it is worth
its weight in gold.
Um, and, and so I did, I mean, I don't
know, probably 10 is underselling it. I
probably
listened to like 15, 20 books. Yeah.
Uh, which is just kind of, how do I do
things? But like that, that whole process
is actually
like, again, to kind of go back to the
top, that's kind of why we're doing this
is I think that in
general, those lessons learned and the
path forward that you can make in life,
um, is predicated by
learning how to change those core beliefs.
Yeah. And, and I think part of that, it
could be
listening to the show and, you know, if,
if we can help one person take that step,
that path that they would like for
themselves to, to build that new horizon,
to use the name of our
show. Um, I, I think that absolutely all
of this is worth it. Every, every dollar
we spent on the
silly shelf ornaments and the, these mics
and, and all of these fancy cameras and
all that would
be worth it if we can help people do this.
Yeah. And I think, you know, I want to,
you know, put
it like a disclaimer. We're not
professionals. We're not a like therapist,
but this is what
we have found has just been,
so helpful in our own lives. And, um, if
like just hearing our experiences can, um,
you know,
help somebody, I think that is so
important because I do definitely think
with this show,
we want to be real, um, and vulnerable
and talk about things that are hard
sometimes, but like
important. Um, so yeah, I just want to
like say we're definitely not like
professionals and
like, you know, if, you know, mental
health, like go get, you know, all the
help that you need. But
like, I do think, um, there's a lot of
change that can happen when you do what
Jeff has done
and had immersed himself in those, like
wanting to be those changes. Yeah. And,
and first off,
speak for yourself. I have a psychology
degree, so, um, I do know what I'm
talking about. Okay.
The second off, I also want to
acknowledge like, you know, my, um, my
way of changing core beliefs,
uh, is, uh, you know, it's not like it is
applicable to every single person on the
planet.
Um, like I do think that there's a lot of
people who benefit from, uh, from this
style of, you know,
you know, changing behavior through
changing beliefs. But, uh, you know, also
there's people
in the world like yourself who go through
life and they're like, well, I should run
because it
just do that. And which is a superpower
unto itself. Uh, I don't really
understand how that
works. Um, maybe you can help me and, and
help others magically just have the
ability to decide
like, yeah, I'm just going to have a
clean house and that's just what I'm
going to do for the
entirety of my life. Yeah. Yeah. I think
everybody is like, I'm like, was that
like a question and
you want me to like expand on that a
little bit? Cause I, I don't, I'm not
sure. Oh, okay. Well,
I mean, I'm, so I am definitely more of a
disciplined person and I think,
that is, that has. What does it mean to
be a disciplined person? I don't even
understand
like, how do you be like, he just, they're
just born that way. And that's just what
you want.
Sometimes. I mean, I think there are
people that like in general are just more
disciplined. It
probably had, you know, a little bit to
do with how they're raised and what their
families did.
Um, and I was definitely, I feel like I
always grew up in, you know, like you
said, a clean house,
like that is important to me. Um, and I,
you know, I sure we had like the messes,
but in general,
like, I feel like we always lived pretty
cleanly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. But, uh,
you didn't like
grow up, uh, as a runner, like you didn't
grow up in a family. No, that's true.
That's very true.
Like lifelong, you know, going out and
picking their sport and doing their thing
until, you know,
into adulthood and stuff like that. So,
and, and in fact, like even growing,
up through school, like you didn't, uh,
you did some sports stuff, but not a lot.
Certainly not to the extent that you did
after you were at school. So what,
you know, I started doing, um, yeah, like
you said, I, I definitely did not grow up
in like, uh, like a very sports heavy
home, which I know like a lot of people
are. Um, and
um, but when I, I'm trying to really
remember, like I ran in high school a
little bit, but I don't
know, I don't really have like a strong
recollection of like the desire of what I
do when I hit like
college. Um, so it's kind of funny, like
you said, like I, like part of my
identity is I work from
home while I also like did all my college
online, which I'm like, maybe I need to
get out more. Um,
I remember in college, um, I went and did
some group exercise classes. I think it
was cycle.
Yeah. And I thought it was so much fun.
Like, and like I said, I haven't, I didn't
really have
the like sports, like I didn't do much
sports. So I never had really felt that
like adrenaline,
um, competition that I got from like a
group cycle class. So I don't know. I
think I was
drawn to that a little bit. Um,
just the fun environment, um, of doing
that. So I do remember like,
that was kind of my first stepping block
into living a more healthy lifestyle was
getting
into like group exercise. Um, and
honestly, then at that point I kind of
just started like
different ones. Like I remember trying
like turbo kick and I, I don't even know
what it's called
now, but I remember thinking that was so
fun. Um, so I don't know. I think that
was kind of how I
got into it is I,
branched out. I tried something like I'd
never tried group exercise before,
literally like signed up for gym, the gym
and just went by myself and tried it. And
I don't know.
I, I don't know. I just thought it
sounded like fun. And then I really,
really, really loved it.
And like, I really found instructors that
I felt like could push me. And I think
that's the other
thing too, is like, like,
feeling like my body was strong, like
stronger than you realize. Um, which even
I'm still
learning today. And like, I know one
thing we haven't really talked about is
like the building
blocks of what we're doing for, um, our
running future and like what we're doing.
And like right
now, um, I don't know, I'm sure we'll
talk more and more about it, but we're
training for Sydney
marathon. We ran a few marathons, just
ran one not too long ago. And, um, so
like still even now,
I'm learning what in the heck my body is
capable of. Um, but it's fun, but hard,
like, and sometimes
the hard sucks. Like sometimes like I don't
want to work that hard. And sometimes
like, like even
now, like I'll occasionally go to the
cycle class and I'm like, Oh my gosh,
like, why am I doing
this? But it's like that after of like,
man, like I worked so hard and like, that's
the difference
maker. I think. So to go back to the,
like the motivation that you get through
group exercise,
why do you feel like that specifically
for your personality type is something
that
it helps keep you down that path? Like,
is that like, what, what about that keeps
you there?
What do you enjoy? Like, is it the just
hanging out with other people? I think it's,
yeah, it's
like, I think when you're starting out
and you don't really know what to do, um,
you kind of
have that guidance already. Like, you
know, like, okay, I'm going to be
instructed by like this
instructor that obviously knows what they're
doing. So there's a comfort level in that.
So there's like, it can be a little
uncomfortable walking into a class. Like
you don't know what
you're doing. And I would definitely say,
if you have friends, like take a friend
with you. Like
I just know, like sometimes when I, when
I was going for the first time,
like I didn't have a lot of friends that
had that same drive to go do something
like that. Um,
but there's definitely a comfort level
with like something new and like having
that instructor.
Um, and then, like I said, I think it was
working hard for that, however long you're
going for.
And then like feeling that like sense of
like, wow, I worked really hard and like,
I feel so good.
Um, and then there's also like,
I don't know, there's that like human
connection of like,
you're working hard with like a whole
group of people. Like it's not just you.
Um, like,
and you're all kind of like cheering each
other on in your own like way of like,
good job. Like,
I know you lifted up that weight hard. I
know you worked out.
Is that what you say to people? I know
you lifted up that weight hard.
Yeah. I guess that's something people are
going to learn is like, I say things
wrong sometimes.
Like I'll like have like something like I
want to say, and then it's like, it's
wrong.
And I'm like, wait, that wasn't what I
meant. Um, but yes, no, I can't. I don't
think I've ever
said that to somebody, but like, maybe
you should, maybe I should, maybe I
should make a t-shirt.
Hey, you lifted that weight up hard. A
true inspiration on the back. I don't
know, but
that is, I don't know, for someone like
me that has the motivation kind of to do
a thing that
gives you like that comfort to like step,
actually step into it. That's interesting.
I feel like the part of it that I wouldn't
have guessed
would be, you know, having a trusted
guide through the thing that you're
talking about doing and
being able to like lean on their
expertise. Whereas I feel like my default
would be much
more. So like, I want to be my own coach
through this. Like I want to learn all
the stuff. Uh,
and I find that more motivating. Um, and
I have like a real life example of this
because like,
if we're shopping at the grocery store,
if we're shopping at a home goods or not
home goods,
um, home like depot or something like
that. Like if there's like a thing that
we cannot find,
or we are not sure what the thing is that
we're looking for, I'm one to just go ask
a
very kind employee of, Hey, this is what
we're looking for. Can you point us in
the right
direction? Where you are one to search on
your phone for how
ever long it takes to find the thing in
the aisle on the row before you would
even dare to ask an
employee for any amount of help. So that's
a real life example. I mean, I think that
there's no
fate worse than having to ask somebody
where something is. Um, so I'd, yeah, I'd
rather die.
Oh my God. Uh, okay. So I don't know
where on earth. Yeah. We kind of got lost
in the,
we'll, we'll refocus ourselves. So like
reeling it back in. So I want to go back
to the running
story. So I, I ran that two and a half
miles and it was terrible. And, uh, I, I
knew though that
like, first off the start of anything is
by far the hardest part. Um, and it
really is like
whatever, when you realize that it like,
okay, cool. It sounded like a dream
sounded like a
reality. More than likely like that in
state probably is great. Like it probably
is a great
thing that you're going after. It
probably is a big feeling of
accomplishment to finish a half
marathon. You know, like that was the
thing I was working toward. Um, but when
you realized like to
get there, it's going to be really,
really, really hard. And it's going to be
really, really, really
hard for the foreseeable future. Um, and
it's like when you realize like, okay,
this is going to be
hard. And now I, now I, I've felt how it's
going to be hard. It's no more of like,
well, you know,
that that's going to be tough. I'm like
looking at this training plan, I'm gonna
have to run all
these miles. And that does seem like a
lot. And then you go out and do it and
you're like, holy
frick. Yep. That it's every bit as hard
and harder, uh, than I was anticipating.
How do you
figure out a way to still show up to
still do it? And like, that's, that's the
magic. So, um,
you know, I, to me, like how I do that is,
um, you know,
the, the people that run marathons are
the sort of people who can make their way
through that.
And so what, uh, you know, my, my path
toward changing that about myself and
becoming that
person, um, is to, to surround myself
with as much, you know, just trying to
pound it into my
head through listening to things, reading
things, learning things, looking things
up.
And, and eventually you, I, you know, I,
I became a runner. Like I, now I identify
as that. In fact,
um, really, really early on, I would call
myself a runner, even though I hadn't ran
like 10 miles
total in the last decade. Um, but I, I
chose that that was going to be my
identity. And then it's
just a matter of making that true, uh,
which is a lot of freaking work. And I
think like to a lot
of people, you know, start the new year
with wanting that to like a new year's
resolution,
how is this, how is this like different?
How is this mindset different from like
new year, new you?
Yeah, I, uh, this is great. I, I didn't
even think about this, uh, as we were, uh,
kind of going
through and talking about some stuff that
we might potentially cover. Um, I'm, I,
it, I think
it's human nature to love the idea of a
new year's resolution. Like I I'm going
to do these five
things at this one thing and it's going
to completely change my life. And then,
um,
the, I don't know what the actual
statistic is, uh, but it is obviously
incredibly low that anybody
sticks with that to the, to the extent
that it may as well be zero. Um, and I, I
think that that
is probably the least effective way to
make a lasting change because it, you
know, going back
to the top, it is, it's just an exercise
and talking about what you want and, and
to see how
far your willpower can take you and
spoiler, it almost never is far enough
that it sticks
as a lasting thing about your life. So,
you know, really all it is, like, if you're
like,
I'm going to eat healthy and lose weight
and I'm going to do it on January 1st. Um,
and I'm going
to have, and I'm going to see how long
that lasts. Uh, and, and what you find
out is not how much
weight you can lose. You find out how
long it is that you can have a willpower
carry you. Um,
and then ultimately there's going to be,
um, like, ah, man, I'm off work because,
uh, it's a
and like, ah, man, I ate a thousand
calories for breakfast. Ah, well I'll, I'll
just eat a lighter
lunch and then lunch rolls around and
like, I'm fricking hungry again. And I'm
going to eat that.
And then dinner rolls around. Like I blew
my, my thing and I was not supposed to
have a cheat day,
but like just an extra cheat day. And
then like, it just like snowballs out of
control and like,
and now we're right back to where we were.
Um, and, and so I feel like, yeah, new,
new year's
resolution is just like exercise in how
much, uh, how much can your willpower
take you? And it's
never, never to that, uh, destiny.
Where you actually want to go. And so how
I feel about this and why I feel like the
way that I have
introduced lasting change in my life is
different is for one, um, there is like,
there's no distance
between, I think of it as a good idea and
I'm going to start pursuing it. Um, and
what I like
specifically, what I mean by that is I
don't fricking wait until the weekend to
start the thing.
Like I, I signed up like the second that
I decided, like, I'm going to fricking be
a runner
and I'm going to figure out how to make
that happen. I signed up for the half
marathon. Like,
and, and that's crazy. Like, no, that
doesn't make any amount of sense. Um, but
a lot of these
really hard things are never going to
make sense when you start. And the
hardest thing is just to
start. And, and like, to be honest, like
if you are going to be a runner, then you
start running
today and like, and hard stop. Like there,
there is not going to be something that's
going to change between now and January 1st,
that's going to make it so much easier to
do. All you're doing is wasting time. And
if you want to
get to a goal and you're going to defer
the start date to some arbitrary cutoff,
like I'm going to,
well, I'll start on Monday, uh, or I'm
going to start on Saturday, uh, or I'm
going to start
after my birthday or when I turn X years
old, um, like just, just do the thing,
like, just,
just get going. Um,
you know, that, that is also how, you
know, we have the bravely.dev thing over
here. Um,
which I can't make the camera switch to
the third view, but, um,
but yeah, so, you know, we started down
the path of our business very much that
way of like,
uh, it went from idea to all in for like
130 straight days now, um, of make the
thing happen.
Right.
And, um, there was no like, okay, well,
you know, I'll wait till the summer and
the kids are out of
school. So we'll have a little bit more
time in the summer or we'll wait till
after the marathon
because we'll have more time because we
won't be spending as much time on long
runs, uh, or
whatever. And so I'll have more weekend.
It's like, I'm, I'm starting now
immediately. And
because, you know, I, I have aspirations
for what my future looks like. I've
always wanted to have
this thing.
So I,
so I have a question for you. So like for
me, and I know I mentioned this is like,
I'm a planner. I am a meticulous, like,
it's so funny too, because we are you,
you are not, we,
you are such a spontaneous person. Like,
I can't even tell you how many times you've
had an idea
and we just go do it. Like, it's so like,
I've had kind of had to like learn to
like,
just be okay with that. But for someone
like,
me, that is a planner and I want to make
sure I have all my ducks in a row. And
like day one today
feels really hard. Like, how do you
navigate that side of things? Cause even
like, yeah,
the business and bravely and, um, like
still even now I'm like, how did we, how
did that even get
started? I don't even like, it just did.
And, you know, you've done this enough
times that
you're kind of like, you know, getting to
be like really good at starting things.
Um, but like for someone like me, it's
still really hard.
Yeah. So like, is the question, how do
you,
like for someone like, like that wants to
have it really planned out, really
thought through,
really like intentional about it, like
rather than just like, all right, go now.
So, and you'll have to help me through
this. Cause I don't have the same, like
you mentioned,
like I, I am not risk averse. I'm fine.
Like if you, if you want me to sell the
house, sell the
cars,
put it all into something, like I'm going
to do it. And, um, and that's, that's
obviously,
I, I understand that I'm a little bit
crazy in that sense. Um, but at the same
time, I think
at least from my perception, a lot of
people who don't start, uh, who are not
okay,
like they need to know like all the X, Y,
Z factors of the thing. Uh, just at least
again,
from my perspective, it feels like just
fear, right? Like it's going to, it's
going to be, um, real hard. And what if I'm
not perfect with it? And I need to like,
well,
I'm going to look silly or people are
going to judge me or there's X, Y, Z,
just like bad thing
that could happen, bad thing that could
happen, bad thing that could happen, bad
thing that could
happen. And where my like mindset has
shifted to be clear, like even that, that
even for me, um,
has held me back at times. And like, if I
could go back and I had like one thing I
could tell my
younger self is like,
those fears are never as bad as what
reality actually is. Yeah. Like, I mean,
sure. Occasionally
maybe there's something that's like, wow.
Yep. That, that was something that was,
uh, avoidable
hindsight 2020, but I would say 99 times
out of a hundred, those fears, even if
they like that
thing that you were worried about happens,
it's like, oh, well, that was like, that
was nothing.
Yeah. That was, that was not a big deal.
And, and,
and so, and I also feel very fortunate
cause like I've had people tell me those
things. And even
though I'm stubborn and I don't think
through that, uh, in the moment, um, you
know, in hindsight,
uh, like going back and learning from
that wisdom of it's going to be okay. It's
going to be fine.
You're going to learn along the way. And
it like failure isn't a, uh, a terminal
condition. Failure
is an opportunity to take what you've
learned and, you know, bounce to the next
thing. So yeah, that
would say overthinking things is almost
never helpful. Right. Yeah. I think you,
you will learn
more doing a podcast with your husband
and just doing it, uh, and getting into
it. Then you'll
ever like learn from talking through it
and pre-planning and, um, and getting
perfect.
Cause the thing is, is like, you're
already better at being a podcaster now
than any amount
of time that we've talked about it in the,
in the past. And, um, that that's true of,
of,
any, any big thing that you're wanting to
go and do, you know, I, I, we talk about
the business.
Like I, I really love our little software
development business that we've built. Um,
but you know, I, I am, I'm, I don't even
know 10,000 times more knowledgeable
about how that
works than I was, um, four months ago.
And that comes from a person whose career
is in tech
leadership stuff. Like,
I, I come from this and, but diving into
it and having to be responsible for all
the things,
uh, from, you know, everything from
setting up HR stuff, uh, all the way
through to fulfillment and
like marketing. I mean, that, that's like
a real big thing that I am learning about
and, and,
and actively trying to become better at,
but like, uh, I am so much better now
than I was four months
ago. I've learned so much. Yeah.
And it really just comes from like, you
just got to do it. You have to have the
life experience.
I do think it's that it's like, you just
got to do it. Um, it's scary. Like it
literally like
to think for someone like me still to
even think of like this big, I don't even
know,
like just this big thing that we have
this big dream for. It's like so cool to
think about it.
And then it's also so scary. I don't know
how else to describe it, but yeah.
Like what about, what about it is scary?
Do you feel like,
I think it's the risk. It's like, it's
the failure. And like, I think that's
something
like I've even like, I've gone to therapy
for is like this fear of failure, like
failure and,
um, like being okay with that and like
having, which, you know, and I think one
thing I would
love to talk, maybe this isn't the week
to do it, but, um, is like having like,
it's okay to fail.
And like, I have you to like, help me
through that failure and like,
how do people that, how do people
navigate failure, I guess on their own.
And then how do
they like, what are some good ways to
like get, like have somebody there, you
know? And I feel
so lucky because I have you and I know
that's not the situation for everybody.
Um, but yeah,
I think for me it is that, that scariness
of failure and I have had to do some like
big growth
and I'm still like, I mean, I'm still
growing in that of like being even in my
like,
own job and, um, uh, starting the company
together of like, not everything's going
to be perfect and
that's okay. Like learn from that. And
like, it is the human experience to have
moments that are
not going to go exactly as you planned.
And that is, I mean, that's going to
happen and that's okay.
Yeah. I think, um, you know, one, one
thing that I've had the biggest shift of,
with regard to failure is, um, the,
I would say like the thing that I would
want to always avoid, um, and I said this
a second ago,
but like it, it's never as bad as you
think. And also, um, failure truly, like
in the things that
you're afraid of, like the things that
you would define failure as, which is
like, I'm not going
to meet the, I'm not going to meet my
goal.
Um, that is, that is an inevitable
outcome. Like we are absolutely going to
fail. Um, like either
you're going to fail because you gave up
or you never tried and you used to get
the failure by
default and you're gonna have to live
with that, or you're going to try
something and, uh, maybe
you, maybe you knock it out of the park
this time. Um, and that's great. Good job.
Uh, you're lucky.
But the, the reality of it is more often
than not, you're going to have stuff that
didn't go
as planned. It's not going to go as good
as you would have hoped.
Um, you're going to have to learn and
adjust. Uh, I mean, running is a great
analog for that
because like the number of times that I
have felt confident, um, uh, about how a
race might go or
how a particular run might go, um, is a
much higher number than how many of them
actually
went well. And sometimes you think like,
oh man, this, this whole training block
is going to be
crap and I'm not going to be able to get
to the point that I want to get to. And
then you build
the bricks.
And you build that and you get to the
point and you're like, wow, actually, you
know what? This
was better than I expected. Yeah. And I
think something too, that helps me. And
this seems a
little cliche, but are some like strong
mantras. And I know like sometimes we're
struggling through
anything or a run, um, is like, if it was
easy, everybody would do it. Like that's
something like
I repeat to myself when I'm like having a
hard moment. And I think that you could
say that,
you know, even with
this company and
Oh, yeah.
Like if it was easy, everybody would be
doing it. And you know, like it is hard
and that's okay
that it's hard. And then like, there's,
which I mean, I know like we, like I do,
I like to take
Peloton classes and stuff and they always
say like progress, not perfection. Like
that, that one's
another one that's like really stuck with
me. So I think finding those mantras too,
that like
resonate with you is I think important
because it's just a few words, but like,
can have lasting impact. Yeah. I think
one thing that, um, I also have seen reframed
is it actually
what you, what you hit on is exactly the
thing is nowadays. I almost get excited
when some new
challenge arises that makes me feel like,
like, Oh my gosh, I just want to give up
because every
time that I feel that I know that other
people have that same like hurdle in
front of them.
And I don't mean that in a bad way, but
like, I am also a competitive person.
Like, and I,
I want to, I want to do a good job. Yeah.
And the harder that the road is, um, that
means that
there's going to be fewer people at the
top. And, and so like, and maybe that's a
little messed up,
but like, I, I think that I, I now look
at that as an exciting thing because I'm
not going to
give up. Like, I know I'm going to keep
going. I'm going to figure this out. And
that means
it's just going to be that much harder,
um, for anybody else to do the same thing.
Um,
and, and it's, it's honestly like, that's
the blessing that not knowing all of this
at the
beginning, uh, has, because if I would
have, if I would know all the things that
I was going to
have to figure out a solution to, I
wouldn't have started the business. Right.
It would have been
like way too insurmountable, um, way too
stressful to think about all those things,
but you, you
don't face them all at once. You face
them one at a time or a handful at a time.
Um, but yeah,
like right now, you know, one silly thing
is one of the apps that we,
we built, um, it got pulled from our
payment processor. They don't allow us to
do that sort
of thing. And so now I'm going to, uh,
have to figure out another payment
processor, which is
a whole freaking thing. And, uh, to have
to go through that is not anything that I
wanted to
have to spend time on. Um, but the, the
hidden blessing in all that is that I am
now going to
not be dependent. Uh, the company will
not be dependent upon a single payment
processors whims
to our ability to sell things to
customers. Like we're going to have an
alternative thing with that.
And then also through that process, the
ability to make lemonade out of this
limit of a situation,
which is, Hey, you know what? Screw it. I'm
fine. I can't sell it. Great. I'm just
going to give it
away. And we're going to use that as an
opportunity to have some people know
about us that wouldn't
have known about us. Otherwise they can
get some value from it. I can't sell it
to them anyhow.
And then maybe they take that goodwill
and consider us next time.
They have some other software need. Uh,
and, and yeah, that's a great thing. And
I'll learn some
marketing things along the way through
that process. I'm going to build out some
infrastructure
to be able to give stuff away and be able
to keep track of all that stuff. And so,
yeah,
was it a hurdle that I had to go through?
Absolutely. Would I take it back now? I
wouldn't,
I, I, we are set up better with the
business because of that thing that I did
not want to
have happen. And like that feeling in my
stomach, when I got that email of like,
you're all your,
all your money's on hold, uh, and you can't
sell this thing. And it was like, Holy,
like what the
frick? Like, this is a, I, I, I just like
you catastrophize. And in the, in the
first like
three minutes that that happened, it was
like the, the world got a little darker
around the
outside of it. And, and you're just like,
I, how am I ever going to figure this out?
And then, and then it's just like, well,
I just one thing at a time. Like I can't,
I can't go back in
time and fix this. And so now it's just,
what do, what do we need to do to make
our path now that I
know these new facts? Uh, and how do I
learn how to avoid this, um, next time?
Uh, which is quite
honestly, I, there's disclosures that you
have to read. Like they have acceptable
use policies for
a reason. Um, and I a hundred percent was,
uh, in violation of that. They had every
right to shut
me down for what I, uh, for what had
happened. And, um, you know, so that's,
that's another lesson.
Yeah.
I'm not really one to read a lot of
details, so perhaps that will be
something I'll have to learn
over the course of time a couple of times,
but you know, we, we are better off
because of the,
the challenge and, and that is, that's so,
that's so true of so many things.
Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, um,
we've been going for a while now. Do we
want to wrap up
this first episode or did you have
anything else? I do. I do think, um,
to, to really nail down the, the lesson
from the running stuff. Cause while this
is not a running
podcast at all, it is, um, a big thing
that I think a lot of people have
aspirations toward.
And, um, you know, I, I think for me,
like, as I went through that, I, I
learned a lot about how
to, to take something that you want to do
and turn that into something that is not
just a new
thing, but rather has now been like a,
that almost three year thing. And a few
marathons under your
belt and a few marathons. Um, yeah, it,
it didn't end just at a half marathon. Um,
it's something
that continues to grow and continues to
be, um, a part of my life. And when I
look out five years
from now and, uh, what do I, what do I
want myself to be? Um, a runner is part
of that. Yeah. And,
um, I'm, I'm happy with,
with, you know, the progress that I've
made and I have other things that I want
down that path.
But, um, what that, what that took for me
personally was, um, I had to make that a
part
of my identity. And that was through, um,
exposing myself to as much of, uh, that
as possible. And
maybe, maybe in a way it's more just the
introverts version of what you described
with group exercise.
Like maybe it's just, you know, I, for me,
I, I needed to be exposed to,
like-minded people. Um, I just am not one
that's going to show up for a track night.
Like that's
just not my style. Um, I'm okay with the
occasional, you know, running with random
friends and stuff. But, uh, for me, it,
it, these are internal exercises. And, uh,
so I can get kind
of the same benefit of seeing other
people do it, but just more through books
and podcasts and, um,
and just engrossing myself in those sort
of things. And I think it'll be
interesting to,
as you know, we talk about that a little
bit more of like how that, what that
looks like for
different people, because like, for me, I
feel like there are other ways, like I
can do basically
the same thing, but in different ways. Um,
and like exploring what that could be.
Cause to be
honest, I don't really know, but like, I
think there, there's something there. Um,
and there's
like, there, like you said, there's introverts
and extroverts and I'm, you know, a
little bit
of both, I guess. Um,
where you're definitely a more introvert.
And I think there are really unique ways,
like,
and like, that's the thing too, is like,
it's not like a formula. It's not like,
I mean, in a way it kind of is like, but
like, there are different ways this can
work for people
and it takes to pull in like the failure
and like, it just takes different trying
different things.
Yeah. And it's okay to try different
things. Like what works for you. Yeah.
And I think,
you know, for me, what through my thing
and like, I'm a, I'm a person who enjoys
writing. And so
over the course of the last five years, I've
written quite a bit. Um, and go back and
I read
notes, uh, that I had written, you know,
early on in the process or even before
this, where,
you know, I, I talk about like, I'm going
to do this thing. And it is really cool
to go back and
read those things because, you know, to
me, when I think of, um, you know, how,
because I think I, we can end the show
today on, you know, if you could, if you
could give one,
if you could give a person, uh, some
advice on like, if they want to make a
change, like,
what would that be? Um, and I look back
and I, I see myself doing it. It's just,
it's really cool
to see that. Um, so I'll, uh, I'll ask
you first so I can have a second to like,
think about that.
But, um, if you had somebody who was like,
Hey, I want to start running or, you know,
I want to
start eating healthier or, um, you know,
I want to start eating healthier or, you
know, I want to
you know, fill in the blank. Um, they
have some thing that they want. How would
you help them
turn that into, uh, something that is, uh,
something that they can actually achieve?
Well, and I think you've touched on it,
like immersing yourself, like, you know,
find some,
um, like content creators that, you know,
you kind of like look up to that,
maybe talk about things like that. Um,
like get excited about it, like find
I, I think that's it. Like find ways to
get excited. Um, and, and, and, you know,
like you
said, you go back and you read what you've
written. And I think that even in itself
is so
fun, like write some things down and know
in however much time it could even be
like in a
month, like you'll have that to go back
to look back on. Um, which is really,
really cool. And, and I, and I would say
like, just find ways to make it fun.
Yeah. I think, man, that's, that's better
than even what I was going to say. Cause
like I,
as, as you'll see, like I am a very
passionate person and, um, through that
passion, like that
comes from a sense of like playfulness
and fun. And, um, I, I think, you know, I'm
not one to
take myself too seriously.
Like I, uh, I'm certainly, uh, you know,
prone to all the same things that
everybody else
is, but like at the end of the day, like
I, I do, I like, I want to have a good
time.
Like I want to be playful and fun and the
longterm sustainability of something does
need
to be like that. That doesn't need to be
a part of it.
Yeah. And like, it's not going to be fun
always like running that first mile or
two is not
going to be fun. But if it's like
listening to your favorite comedian or if
you're like
wearing an outfit or a pair, a color that
you wouldn't have normally worn before,
like find
ways, like, yeah. And it's very, make it
really applicable to you.
Yeah. I would say, uh, hard things can
also be fun for sure. So just to say that
it's fun
or enjoyable doesn't mean that I mean
that it is easy, right. Um, by all means,
there's lots
of stuff that is extremely hard that you're
just going to have to do. Uh, but it is
fine
being the little tiny bits of that, that
can be moments of fun or, um, just a
little sprinkling
across the top, uh, as you go through and,
and can make those things enjoyable. Um,
for me,
I would say the, the, the thing that I
find most, um, most impactful is whatever
the thing is that
you're wanting to do. Um, you're going to
have a part of that.
That is the reason why you don't do it
now. And, uh, so like, you have, you know,
if you're
eating healthier, you're going to have to
figure out how to buy healthy food or, uh,
how to, you
know, meal prep or plan your week or
whatever, or if you're going to run, um,
you know, how,
how are you going to fit that into your
schedule and how are you going to wake up
early and et
cetera. And even if it's not something
like you, like, you know, we're, we're
really sticking to
like healthy lifestyle things, but even,
which I think is great, but even if it's
like, you know,
like journaling. Yeah. I want to write a
book. Yeah. And like, or like write
something that you
think is fun. Like, I don't know, like
there's so many ways like you can, I mean,
again, we've
kind of stuck to like the more healthier
lifestyle things, but like, that is
definitely not what like
you have to stick to. Right. Well, you
know, with the business, you know, for me,
um, and I'll kind of, kind of bring this
home, but the, uh, the thing for me right
now that I
have to figure out that I don't know how
to do is, um,
like I'm not a marketing professional. My,
my job is in technology. Yeah. Um, and so
I feel
very comfortable with the development and
the product design and, um, all that side
of the
business. Um, but I don't have the
professional background of a marketer. Uh,
and I don't need
to be a Steve jobs, but I do need to be
able to be serviceable in that. And so
for me, like what
that looks like is what do, what does a
marketer know how to do? What are like,
what are the things
that they spend their time?
Learning about, um, what, what are, what
are things that if I would have gone to
school
that I would have like gone through and
learned? Uh, and, and so what I would
suggest, like the
answer to my question of like, how would
I advise you to start the thing is look
at what do I,
what do I need to do in the day to day to
make that happen? Like identify what that
activity is
that that is the hard part of what you
need to do. And then find people that are
doing that
and learn from them. There are, I mean,
that's the beauty of the, you know, the,
the internet today is like, there are no
shortage
of people that are doing the thing, uh,
out in public, uh, across all the
different places that
you can find, you know, podcasts and
videos and stuff like it it's out there.
Like there are
absolutely people doing it. So find them
and, and you'll probably find a handful
of really
entertaining versions of this. Um, and
then, uh, and learn from them.
Like, just like, okay. So I know that I
need to wake up and run every single
morning. If I
want to fill in the blank goal, I need to
watch people who are doing that. And I
need to see that
it's possible. I need my brain to stop
fighting that because like, yeah, they
also want to sleep
in. I want to sleep in, but I have to be
able to wake up and do it. And so like
seeing people
emulate that and live that out helps you
realize like, okay, like I can, I can
learn this. I can
do this. And then just, you keep, keep
compounding that belief through your own
repetitions at it,
but then also just like continue to, uh,
just try to drill that into your skull by,
because, because here's the thing, like
we're humans and we want to be
entertained and
there's all kinds of things that you can
just scroll through on your phone and, um,
and use your phone as a pacifier, take a
little bit of that, um, and use that for
something good.
And so, you know, scroll past the stuff
that's just junk and stop and watch the
video of the
thing that is the thing that you want. Um,
and, and basically teach your algorithm
like, Hey,
this is the stuff that I care about and
that I want. And, uh, algorithm will
figure it out.
Algorithm, very smart algorithm will help
you spend time doing whatever it is that
it thinks
that you want. Um, and, and so, yeah,
find, find people who are finding joy in
the day-to-day grind
of what it is that you want to achieve.
Um, and, and, and start following those
people and learn
from them. And I'll say the fun part is
with the business has,
has been getting some fun merch, easy,
fun stickers. And it brings me, it
brought us some
joy. I don't know. So it was just, you
need people to like buy running merch if
they want to be a
runner. Well, yeah. Like buy that running
headband, buy those running socks, like
retail therapy.
Katy's advice is retail therapy. Hey,
you know, real life here. It works. All
right. So if, uh,
you would like to email us any questions
or anything like that, you can email us
at
brave, uh, sorry, that's bravely.dev.
This is a different thing. You can email
us at build horizons.com.
Uh, and yeah, if you have any questions,
topics, or anything else, I just want to
say hello. Uh,
we would love to, to hear from you. Yeah.
And with that, we're going to turn it
over to Katy,
who has spent a lot of time. This is
going to be fantastic. Absolutely. 10 out
of 10 sign off Katy
hit it. Thanks for building with us. And
we are cheering you on. Wow. That's it.
That's the one.