Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Step inside real founder conversations: raw, unrehearsed, and honest. No playbook. No polish. Just ambitious entrepreneurs uncovering the answers that were there all along. Because every business hides something valuable trapped under the weight of success and chaos of growth.
The Hidden Value podcast is hosted by David Sherry. David works with early-stage founders to grow professionally and personally. He founded, sold, and advises Death to Stock – a media company and newsletter that serves brands like Unfold, Figma, and Spotify.
(00:00:00):
All right, welcome back to Hidden Value.
(00:00:02):
I'm here today with Andrew Fink.
(00:00:04):
Andrew, thank you so much for being here.
(00:00:06):
I have some notes from some of the questions you submitted,
(00:00:09):
so I'm excited to dive in,
(00:00:12):
but welcome to the show.
(00:00:13):
Yeah, thanks, David.
(00:00:15):
I'm really excited to be here.
(00:00:17):
You know,
(00:00:17):
I think a great place to start is just a little bit of kind of how you kind of find
(00:00:21):
yourself here.
(00:00:22):
So do you want to give me just a quick overview of what the last kind of year up
(00:00:28):
until now has looked like for you?
(00:00:30):
Yeah, totally.
(00:00:31):
So the last year has been, I'd say, a year of experimentation for me.
(00:00:36):
I was coming off quitting a corporate job of working in management consulting for
(00:00:42):
four or five years out of college.
(00:00:44):
And I had reached this point where I
(00:00:48):
I was enjoying it and I was learning new things,
(00:00:50):
but I had reached that level of manager where I was like,
(00:00:53):
I saw the people 20 years ahead of me and I was like,
(00:00:56):
that's not the path that I wanted to go down.
(00:00:59):
And so I was still early enough in my career and had some entrepreneurial itch of
(00:01:03):
like,
(00:01:04):
I want to take a risk or like now's the time to take a risk and try something
(00:01:08):
different.
(00:01:09):
But I didn't know exactly what that was.
(00:01:12):
So I had taken some time off and traveled and just tried to get some space to
(00:01:18):
figure out what it is I wanted to do next.
(00:01:21):
So that was the end of last year, 2024.
(00:01:25):
And then over the past year, it's been trying different things.
(00:01:29):
And what I found is I really enjoy writing.
(00:01:32):
And so I started my own newsletter, just sharing my experiences and my journey with
(00:01:38):
through quitting my corporate job and my travels.
(00:01:41):
And then it just kind of snowballed from there.
(00:01:43):
I was writing for myself and then I learned about ghostwriting and started writing
(00:01:48):
for other folks.
(00:01:49):
And it's led to numerous different types of projects to where I am now,
(00:01:54):
where I'm working with founders,
(00:01:56):
helping them write newsletters,
(00:01:59):
LinkedIn posts,
(00:02:00):
as well as I'm getting into some more longer form like book writing as well.
(00:02:06):
I know we're going to talk some maybe about where you're at.
(00:02:09):
Something already struck me that I'm curious to ask about,
(00:02:11):
which is what is your relationship today with risk?
(00:02:15):
So you kind of, that caught my ear a little bit, right?
(00:02:18):
That I wanted to kind of maybe take a risk, saw this path.
(00:02:22):
I didn't want to take it.
(00:02:23):
You've taken some risks now to step into this new space.
(00:02:27):
How, yeah, what do you think your relationship with risk is today?
(00:02:31):
I'd say I'm a pretty risky person or I'm on the spectrum of like,
(00:02:35):
I'm willing to bet on myself and take those risks.
(00:02:39):
But I would also say that
(00:02:41):
they've been, they've been definitely been calculated and like, I am like deliberate.
(00:02:45):
I'm like, one of my values is like deliberate decision-making.
(00:02:49):
And so I'm willing to like take those risks,
(00:02:52):
but I do feel like I,
(00:02:54):
I play out the scenarios and I do the what ifs and I've gone down the,
(00:02:59):
you know,
(00:02:59):
Tim Ferriss,
(00:03:00):
like what's the worst possible case scenario to get okay with me taking the risks.
(00:03:05):
And then I'm, then I'll go and
(00:03:08):
So that's kind of maybe the style or position you're in now in terms of thinking
(00:03:12):
about the future.
(00:03:13):
What risk or what potential paths are you considering right now?
(00:03:18):
So you've shifted, you left the corporate process
(00:03:21):
A gig because you saw, hey, I don't want to, which is really smart.
(00:03:25):
Hey, I see where I'm going to be in 20 years.
(00:03:26):
I don't want to end there.
(00:03:27):
So, you know, good on you for making that transition.
(00:03:30):
You found something you enjoy writing.
(00:03:34):
And it sounds like you're using the skill and an area of enjoyment in service of other people.
(00:03:40):
So what's sort of that next stretch then?
(00:03:43):
you're thinking about?
(00:03:46):
And I'm also curious to maybe keep risk a little bit here in this discussion.
(00:03:49):
And how are you thinking about risk as far as moving forward?
(00:03:53):
So where I'm at now is I have like this solopreneur business where I do everything.
(00:03:59):
I sell, I deliver on the work and all of that.
(00:04:04):
And like, I'm, you know, making a good
(00:04:07):
living and I enjoy it and things are good.
(00:04:13):
Especially compared to where I was in the corporate world where I didn't have the
(00:04:17):
freedom that I have and I didn't have the impact and the work that I'm able to have
(00:04:22):
now.
(00:04:23):
But this
(00:04:24):
you know,
(00:04:26):
the potential next step or the thing that's pulling me is like,
(00:04:29):
do I want to grow this business beyond just a one-man shop?
(00:04:34):
And what does that look like?
(00:04:36):
How does that change things?
(00:04:39):
And in terms of risk, have you been playing out that scenario?
(00:04:43):
Because you just were saying, I play out these scenarios, I take this calculated risk.
(00:04:47):
Where are you in that process as it relates to scaling up or building a bigger business?
(00:04:53):
It's been harder for me to play out.
(00:04:56):
I feel like I hear all of these stories of other folks who have grown and scaled businesses.
(00:05:04):
And a lot of them are my clients.
(00:05:06):
And so I'm in it and I see it and it's like,
(00:05:09):
it's a grind for two,
(00:05:10):
three,
(00:05:10):
four or five years or more.
(00:05:13):
They're sacrificing all these other parts of their life for their business early in
(00:05:17):
their career.
(00:05:18):
And I...
(00:05:20):
have been able to build something where i can still you know i just got back from a
(00:05:23):
fishing trip where i was off for three days and like i am training for a marathon
(00:05:28):
and like i have all these other aspects of my life that are important to me and i
(00:05:33):
don't want to sacrifice those to like build this business and i'm trying to like i
(00:05:39):
guess that is also in factoring into my decision making and it's just and i'm like
(00:05:44):
struggling with
(00:05:46):
Can I do it all?
(00:05:48):
Can I still continue to have these other aspects of my life and grow a big business?
(00:05:53):
Or do I have to sacrifice it?
(00:05:56):
And am I willing to make these other sacrifices?
(00:05:59):
Or how much am I willing to sacrifice?
(00:06:02):
I'm hearing that you are playing out some of that scenario through this lens of
(00:06:06):
what these founders are sharing that,
(00:06:09):
hey,
(00:06:09):
you're going to have to sacrifice to do this.
(00:06:12):
So maybe that's part of how you're imagining it could grow.
(00:06:15):
And I'm thinking how similar are those founders that you're working with?
(00:06:20):
How close to the path you're thinking about are they on?
(00:06:23):
And what's interesting too is you played out your coworkers kind of moving forward.
(00:06:29):
your managers,
(00:06:31):
and that was pretty aligned,
(00:06:32):
because it was like,
(00:06:32):
oh,
(00:06:32):
that's actually the path I'm moving into,
(00:06:35):
right,
(00:06:35):
like,
(00:06:35):
that was a very direct path,
(00:06:37):
yeah,
(00:06:37):
I guess what comes to mind is I ask you how similar their path is to yours,
(00:06:41):
they are as individuals even to you.
(00:06:44):
Yeah,
(00:06:44):
I mean,
(00:06:45):
as you were saying that,
(00:06:46):
it was like,
(00:06:47):
because the corporate path is so cookie cutter,
(00:06:50):
it's like,
(00:06:51):
I could see what that looked like if I just kept getting the next promotion,
(00:06:55):
the next promotion,
(00:06:56):
and like,
(00:06:57):
entrepreneurship there's like a million different ways that you can do it and so
(00:07:03):
yeah so like what does that mean for your growth keep going with that so what does
(00:07:06):
that mean keep going what does that mean yeah just there's like just more unknowns
(00:07:14):
or more like it's harder for me to visualize exactly what that looks like for me
(00:07:20):
and keep going so what does that mean i think it's just um
(00:07:26):
I've been a little bit more hesitant or scared to make the jump like I did last
(00:07:30):
time because it wasn't so as clear cut.
(00:07:35):
Help me understand last time,
(00:07:36):
was that at the job or was that you tried to maybe move forward in a certain way?
(00:07:40):
Yeah, at the job, like when I left the consulting gig.
(00:07:44):
Mm-hmm.
(00:07:45):
Yeah,
(00:07:46):
what I'm curious about,
(00:07:47):
and I think a space,
(00:07:48):
what I kind of heard in that or what I was interested in that was,
(00:07:53):
oh,
(00:07:53):
there's less structure,
(00:07:54):
there's less rules.
(00:07:55):
What's hard about that is,
(00:07:57):
hey,
(00:07:57):
I don't have any models or I have less models or I'm not really sure.
(00:08:00):
That's kind of the difficult piece of it.
(00:08:03):
The opportunity piece of it
(00:08:06):
is, wait a second, there's actually more leeway here.
(00:08:08):
There's not this set path that once I go down, it has to end in a certain place.
(00:08:15):
It may be a bit more learn as I go, develop as I go, change as I go.
(00:08:20):
And I think that lock-in risk,
(00:08:23):
if I can call it that,
(00:08:24):
of,
(00:08:25):
well,
(00:08:25):
I'm just on this path for the next 20 years,
(00:08:28):
Maybe that's the flip side of not knowing is actually there's a lot more flexibility.
(00:08:32):
That's kind of what I heard.
(00:08:33):
Do you, how do you sort of hear what I'm bringing up?
(00:08:36):
Yeah, I was actually like, I've been talking through this with other people as well.
(00:08:41):
And even this morning, a couple of guys
(00:08:45):
reflected back to me like when I had left my corporate job,
(00:08:49):
I had always had this thing in the back of my head is like I could always go back
(00:08:53):
there if I needed to because I left on good terms and it's like that consulting job
(00:09:00):
is always gonna be there.
(00:09:01):
I didn't really see this until this morning,
(00:09:05):
but I could go back to this if I needed to and leaning towards growing an agency
(00:09:13):
I could always come back to this if it doesn't feel right or whatever it might be.
(00:09:21):
And so that's what that brought up for me when you were saying that.
(00:09:25):
Yeah,
(00:09:25):
and maybe that's what helps you feel comfortable with the calculated risk is
(00:09:29):
knowing that you can shift back as you need to.
(00:09:32):
I also think there's maybe a bit of an assumption here that
(00:09:37):
you know, the sacrifice or what growth means is that I'm going to have to sacrifice.
(00:09:42):
And it does sound like there's some desire of some type of gain that you can also
(00:09:47):
get from taking this risk or making this leap.
(00:09:51):
So let's talk about that because,
(00:09:53):
you know,
(00:09:54):
I know you don't want to maybe have this business take over your life and there's
(00:09:58):
also something drawing you towards this.
(00:10:00):
So what is appealing about this growth to you?
(00:10:05):
What's pulling you into it?
(00:10:08):
There's two things.
(00:10:09):
One is just I am like a growth minded person.
(00:10:12):
And so the taking on the next challenge and doing something hard and proving to
(00:10:18):
myself that I can build this company.
(00:10:21):
And then there's also just like the financial independence process.
(00:10:25):
like having a fallback financially if I'm able to build a company,
(00:10:30):
whereas on the solopreneur journey,
(00:10:33):
it's not the same where I can like step out and have things running in that
(00:10:39):
situation.
(00:10:39):
And so those are the things that are drawing me towards it.
(00:10:45):
I want to be challenged because I'm growth-minded.
(00:10:49):
And I want to create some more upside or more financial growth for myself.
(00:10:57):
And so those are two pieces that you might be wanting to find those regardless.
(00:11:03):
Maybe one pathway is growing this agency.
(00:11:07):
But what I will say,
(00:11:08):
I tend to kind of see and notice is if you feel like that's true for you,
(00:11:12):
that these questions are coming up,
(00:11:14):
that these desires are coming up,
(00:11:16):
it's kind of like a need,
(00:11:17):
you know,
(00:11:17):
we kind of all have these different needs and that's,
(00:11:20):
that's perfectly okay.
(00:11:21):
And those needs are maybe going to remain unless we find a way to meet those needs.
(00:11:27):
And I think there's plenty of ways to do that.
(00:11:29):
There's different ways to grow.
(00:11:30):
You mentioned running a marathon, you know, or training, right?
(00:11:33):
Like that's a growth mindset that you're engaging with to meet that need.
(00:11:37):
And so I think for you,
(00:11:39):
it's sort of like,
(00:11:40):
no matter what,
(00:11:41):
I see these things as kind of how we get energized and
(00:11:45):
to move forward, right?
(00:11:46):
Because for entrepreneurs,
(00:11:48):
what happens is your excitement,
(00:11:51):
your thrill,
(00:11:52):
I call it,
(00:11:53):
it's kind of what draws you into that next thing,
(00:11:54):
right?
(00:11:55):
You start to get this thing working,
(00:11:57):
the writing,
(00:11:57):
and it's like,
(00:11:58):
it's exciting,
(00:11:59):
and you're building,
(00:11:59):
you're building.
(00:12:01):
And then this plateau happens where if that learning and that growth isn't there,
(00:12:05):
and also the financial piece,
(00:12:06):
which can be a signal about growth for yourself,
(00:12:10):
or also be something you're wanting to become in the future,
(00:12:14):
if you don't have those things,
(00:12:16):
you know,
(00:12:17):
you're going to start to find,
(00:12:18):
I want some method to have that in my life or in my business,
(00:12:21):
right?
(00:12:22):
So those questions,
(00:12:23):
I think you can kind of figure out,
(00:12:26):
do I want to meet those needs through the business?
(00:12:30):
Or are there other pathways maybe that meet those needs as well?
(00:12:34):
But I think the upside is they keep you energized.
(00:12:36):
They move you forward.
(00:12:38):
They're exciting.
(00:12:39):
And so how much are those needs being met for you right now versus how much are you
(00:12:43):
feeling like you're really wanting them?
(00:12:46):
I think that's an interesting thing to explore.
(00:12:49):
That's a good point because I do get the growth stuff in these other aspects of my
(00:12:54):
life through the travel or through training for races or in my relationships.
(00:13:01):
Do I need it everywhere?
(00:13:03):
I don't know.
(00:13:04):
I haven't really thought of it that way.
(00:13:06):
I have noticed myself think in terms of black and white a lot as opposed to like
(00:13:13):
The dimmers are just like it doesn't have to be all the way one way or the other.
(00:13:18):
And so that's just like a natural thing that I do all the time.
(00:13:23):
Yeah, look for a third option.
(00:13:24):
I mean, really, there's many options.
(00:13:26):
So I think there's many ways to get these needs met.
(00:13:29):
There's many ways to grow your financial sort of opportunity.
(00:13:35):
You could do a solo practice and co-found an agency and they could be separate, right?
(00:13:39):
What I would recommend is find those things that are energizing for yourself
(00:13:44):
because they're a need or desire.
(00:13:46):
Build some pathways for you to actually move towards that more.
(00:13:53):
your natural energy will drive you forward towards that.
(00:13:55):
So if it's about the financial abundance piece for yourself in the future, some outlet for that.
(00:14:02):
I think if you've got the excitement for it and desire, you want to have some outlet there.
(00:14:07):
When you say finding this energy, can you elaborate on that or how do you go about that?
(00:14:13):
I would look at where am I actually being pulled right now?
(00:14:17):
You know,
(00:14:17):
there's kind of this push and this force and we all experience this in different
(00:14:20):
ways in our business,
(00:14:21):
right?
(00:14:21):
There's the things we're trying to kind of like force to come together.
(00:14:24):
And those kind of feel like these like block doors where we keep like pushing and
(00:14:28):
pushing and yet the resistance kind of pushes back.
(00:14:32):
And then there's these other areas where we actually just have this natural excitement.
(00:14:36):
And then as we step forward, hey, things are starting to kind of work.
(00:14:40):
Things are starting to kind of unlock.
(00:14:41):
Like I actually feel like things are building around this kind of naturally.
(00:14:45):
And that could be with a partner,
(00:14:46):
for example,
(00:14:47):
like a co-founder or a collaborator for this business.
(00:14:51):
Or maybe there's something around money or finances you're just actually feeling
(00:14:55):
really drawn to.
(00:14:56):
The reason this is important is because you don't have to motivate yourself every day
(00:15:02):
to get the energy to do it.
(00:15:04):
I don't need to keep having all this coffee and like,
(00:15:06):
you know,
(00:15:07):
what I see is all these productivity systems and stuff,
(00:15:10):
a lot of times it's like people forcing themselves to try to do something they
(00:15:13):
don't actually have the energy for.
(00:15:15):
So you kind of can look for some of these areas where like,
(00:15:19):
I just have an interest,
(00:15:20):
I'm being pulled in this area.
(00:15:22):
Maybe it doesn't make as much sense.
(00:15:25):
And I'm not feeling that much resistance.
(00:15:27):
And when you don't feel that much resistance in moving forward,
(00:15:30):
that allows you to kind of keep progressing.
(00:15:34):
Is there an area that you're feeling or what comes to mind for you as I bring that
(00:15:38):
up about an area that's felt one way or the other?
(00:15:41):
Yeah.
(00:15:41):
So the area that I feel that pull towards is writing books.
(00:15:47):
I love it.
(00:15:47):
Yeah, I love it.
(00:15:48):
And what does that look like?
(00:15:52):
And don't use the but because we're throwing that out for a second.
(00:15:54):
So tell me about what does that actually look like to you?
(00:15:58):
That allows me to do more storytelling and more long-form writing.
(00:16:04):
I'm working on two of these projects right now where I'm helping founders tell
(00:16:09):
their story and their insights through a nonfiction book.
(00:16:15):
And that just allows me to be more creative.
(00:16:19):
Those are the conversations that I look forward to.
(00:16:25):
That's what excites me the most.
(00:16:28):
The exploration question here is how does that align with better financial sort of
(00:16:34):
upside or abundance and this growth edge maybe of building a team?
(00:16:39):
Like how are those things compatible?
(00:16:40):
Just to explore.
(00:16:41):
I don't know.
(00:16:42):
How could they be?
(00:16:44):
What makes them not compatible in your mind?
(00:16:47):
I'm early in this book writing that I'm doing it for like very minimal money just
(00:16:54):
to like prove the concept.
(00:16:56):
And it takes a long time to write a good book.
(00:16:59):
And so I don't see the like financial scale of
(00:17:05):
as quickly as this other side of my agency that I've been doing it for longer and I
(00:17:13):
just see like a quicker path to getting more clients and scaling that.
(00:17:19):
That's what comes to mind.
(00:17:20):
Maybe two options just real quick.
(00:17:22):
One is that
(00:17:24):
I think there's two ways you can look at this and probably many more, right?
(00:17:27):
There's never just two, right?
(00:17:28):
But one is I could build out this new product line.
(00:17:31):
And this is just if you want to pursue this agency path, I can pursue this new product line.
(00:17:36):
And that means other people can come in and support the existing product line.
(00:17:41):
So myself as a CEO, I actually have gotten this part up and running.
(00:17:45):
The only way to scale is to have someone else support that side of the business so
(00:17:51):
that you can develop the next product.
(00:17:53):
So that's one way I would see that that aligns, right?
(00:17:56):
And that lets you pursue that, build it out.
(00:17:58):
And so, yeah, maybe there is a less ROI for the business now.
(00:18:03):
However,
(00:18:04):
you're building out a new product that's going to add a new layer of ROI for the
(00:18:08):
business.
(00:18:08):
And so do you see what I mean there?
(00:18:11):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:18:12):
I've been thinking of them as like separate businesses or... They're both writing.
(00:18:17):
They're both writing, similar audience.
(00:18:21):
Yeah, so maybe it doesn't have to be.
(00:18:26):
Even if it is all one,
(00:18:27):
like I still want to be doing the book writing,
(00:18:30):
but the other writing,
(00:18:32):
I would be good hiring another writer or just managing that side of the business,
(00:18:39):
doing the sales and the leads,
(00:18:41):
but then hiring people to actually like do that.
(00:18:44):
And that's a really clear pathway for a role and a step forward.
(00:18:49):
One pathway is, hey, I've already got some clients.
(00:18:52):
I can maybe have some leads.
(00:18:54):
What happens if I don't if I'm not the writer for fulfilling that project?
(00:19:01):
What would that do for my time?
(00:19:03):
And I think in the context of our conversation,
(00:19:05):
it's a pathway that you can step and you can unstep if you're not liking that.
(00:19:10):
And what we talked about is aligning it with where your energy and curiosity is.
(00:19:14):
You're having this energy for building up this other product line.
(00:19:17):
And so my mind goes to how much revenue is not being generated in this agency path.
(00:19:24):
by the book writing opportunities because you're not having time to spend there.
(00:19:28):
Because I'm not having time to spend where?
(00:19:31):
On the book writing.
(00:19:32):
Because you're spending your time here,
(00:19:34):
how much money is on the table in the book writing path for your business if we're
(00:19:39):
thinking about this as an agency or business that's not happening?
(00:19:42):
Or how many more leads would you close if someone else was supporting?
(00:19:45):
So all that to say, I think this is just one pathway, one option.
(00:19:50):
Does that make sense?
(00:19:51):
I've been thinking through this,
(00:19:52):
and I think it goes back to my black or white of like,
(00:19:56):
let's hear it.
(00:19:58):
I want to build this agency to sell in four years.
(00:20:03):
What does that look like to...
(00:20:06):
What makes you think that decision should be made right now?
(00:20:10):
It was like a logic optimized for financial stability goal of like,
(00:20:16):
if I want to back into this number,
(00:20:19):
let me like build this thing the right way.
(00:20:24):
So how could that part inform how you take a step forward that's aligned with where
(00:20:29):
you want to go potentially,
(00:20:30):
you know,
(00:20:31):
with an agency,
(00:20:31):
but just for this one step?
(00:20:35):
it's dipping my toe into it of getting that next client,
(00:20:39):
or it pushes me over my capacity of what I can do by myself.
(00:20:43):
Am I capable of bringing in enough leads to actually grow this agency?
(00:20:48):
Those are all unknowns that I think I can do,
(00:20:51):
but I need to take that first step to start trying.
(00:20:55):
And those are good growth oriented questions.
(00:20:57):
Like you like this personal growth.
(00:20:59):
You like betting on yourself.
(00:21:00):
You like having the option to kind of step back.
(00:21:02):
There's so much value in being in the experience of something over thinking through
(00:21:10):
the plan and,
(00:21:11):
you know,
(00:21:11):
architecting it all out.
(00:21:13):
And so I think if you've got some energy for it,
(00:21:17):
right,
(00:21:17):
which we talked about,
(00:21:18):
and you're able to get in the experience a little bit,
(00:21:22):
This takes us far away now from how are these other founders kind of building their lifestyles?
(00:21:27):
Like that's just so dependent on their own path or on business.
(00:21:31):
It's completely different for everyone.
(00:21:33):
Now you're getting this real information.
(00:21:34):
How do I, I love what you said.
(00:21:35):
How do I feel being a manager?
(00:21:38):
Did that go well?
(00:21:39):
And some people are like, Hey, this actually is, it's that green light.
(00:21:42):
You know,
(00:21:43):
it's like,
(00:21:43):
Oh,
(00:21:43):
actually add another client to their list at another client that like you might
(00:21:47):
find as you push into that,
(00:21:49):
it progresses.
(00:21:50):
You spend time in the chapter writing, you know, for the books.
(00:21:53):
Or maybe you find,
(00:21:54):
hey,
(00:21:55):
this is actually really challenging and I need to go learn some other skills or I
(00:21:58):
need to think about this more.
(00:21:59):
But I think a lot of the insight of the,
(00:22:01):
because now I want to bring it to the actual decision,
(00:22:03):
right?
(00:22:04):
Do I do this agency?
(00:22:05):
Do I stay solo?
(00:22:07):
What I feel,
(00:22:08):
and I'm curious how this lands for you,
(00:22:10):
is getting real information about the experience is what's going to help you with
(00:22:15):
that decision over planning an imagined future.
(00:22:20):
And also could take you a step farther.
(00:22:22):
Yeah, no, I think that that lands.
(00:22:26):
And like,
(00:22:26):
yeah,
(00:22:26):
I've experienced that even as I've grown this thing over the past year of I had
(00:22:31):
never done a sales call before because I was always just a consultant that got
(00:22:35):
handed the project.
(00:22:37):
And you can read all those books and whatever,
(00:22:39):
but it's not until you're like on these sales calls that I really learned and felt
(00:22:45):
what it was like and got better at it.
(00:22:47):
But
(00:22:48):
Yeah.
(00:22:48):
Yeah.
(00:22:49):
It's great.
(00:22:49):
You've got existing examples of how you've taken that step.
(00:22:52):
You know, I call it like the next vulnerable step.
(00:22:54):
It's like, it is a little bit scary.
(00:22:56):
It's a little bit different.
(00:22:57):
And when we have something good that's working, it's like, oh, do I want to break from that?
(00:23:02):
Because like, I feel good now.
(00:23:04):
I don't, I don't want to keep being vulnerable.
(00:23:06):
I don't want to keep putting myself out there.
(00:23:08):
And
(00:23:09):
I think when it becomes this big,
(00:23:12):
oh,
(00:23:12):
I'm now on this four-year journey to sail,
(00:23:15):
that makes that step even harder,
(00:23:17):
right?
(00:23:17):
Because now it all has to go right.
(00:23:19):
And so I think this just experiment,
(00:23:22):
this one project experiment or however you want to kind of bucket it,
(00:23:26):
that lets you take a smaller step,
(00:23:28):
experience it,
(00:23:29):
and takes you further down that path if you end up wanting to stay there.
(00:23:33):
Yeah, no, totally.
(00:23:35):
It's helpful talking through this.
(00:23:37):
I know this stuff,
(00:23:39):
but this kind of thinking is just so different than the way I was raised of like
(00:23:44):
getting the good grades,
(00:23:45):
going to a good university,
(00:23:47):
just like checking the next box up the ladder.
(00:23:51):
It's like having to like shift the mindset and it takes talking through this
(00:23:56):
multiple times to begin.
(00:23:58):
Yeah, two things.
(00:23:59):
One,
(00:24:00):
I'm going to pose the question that I think can be what you act on,
(00:24:04):
which is something like,
(00:24:06):
what is the one project or the next project that I can hire a contractor for to
(00:24:13):
help me out?
(00:24:13):
And that can be at any level or scale.
(00:24:15):
It could be part-time help, whatever.
(00:24:18):
And I imagine there's actually a project there like now-ish.
(00:24:20):
Like I imagine there's something close.
(00:24:22):
So that's what I'd leave with.
(00:24:23):
I'll follow up and email you that.
(00:24:25):
I think that's kind of the action question.
(00:24:27):
You bring up one last thing that I'd love to explore with you a little bit here,
(00:24:31):
which is I think what I'm hearing you say is there's an identity that has been
(00:24:35):
built around this other method of growth that is more structured and ladder
(00:24:40):
oriented.
(00:24:41):
And there's a new identity,
(00:24:42):
a new hat you're kind of putting on that operates in a different world.
(00:24:47):
And so it might be hard to define right now,
(00:24:51):
but kind of understanding how you're telling yourself a story about who you are.
(00:24:56):
I think the more actually you can write out,
(00:24:58):
like this is who I thought I was on that path,
(00:25:01):
but actually this is who I am.
(00:25:06):
Defining like the name for that or the qualities or traits of that and seeing them
(00:25:12):
side by side,
(00:25:13):
I think will help you shift into that.
(00:25:15):
You know, who did I have to be?
(00:25:19):
And who do I either want to be or who am I or who am I now?
(00:25:22):
I want to tell you quickly why I'm saying this.
(00:25:26):
And I've seen it in a lot of agencies specifically,
(00:25:29):
founders who've grown agencies and broken through multiple growth points.
(00:25:34):
It's like as soon as the founder sees himself in a new way,
(00:25:37):
you know,
(00:25:38):
I'm a solopreneur,
(00:25:39):
I'm a business owner.
(00:25:42):
Their thinking changes, the lens changes.
(00:25:44):
And it takes a while to get into that spot.
(00:25:48):
but it does make a big difference when you sort of re-categorize your identity.
(00:25:52):
And it just takes deciding that and seeing that for yourself.
(00:25:55):
Oh, yeah, I'm a business owner, not a solopreneur.
(00:25:58):
Whatever words make sense from the old path to the new path,
(00:26:01):
I think is more what I would focus on.
(00:26:03):
Okay, cool.
(00:26:04):
Yeah, no, thank you for that.
(00:26:05):
I'm excited to journal on that.
(00:26:07):
Yeah, I think I could take it a lot of ways.
(00:26:09):
The one thing that came to mind immediately was this experimental mindset of being okay with
(00:26:16):
Like,
(00:26:17):
I mean,
(00:26:17):
what we got to,
(00:26:18):
yeah,
(00:26:18):
just like try the next thing and pivot and fail or whatever you want to call it
(00:26:24):
versus like that was just so different in the other path of it's just like this is
(00:26:29):
the list of things you do to get to the next level.
(00:26:32):
Yeah,
(00:26:33):
it's like the experimenter is like dynamic and thinking doesn't have these super
(00:26:37):
long term plans because you can't,
(00:26:38):
you know,
(00:26:39):
perfectly plan everything out in the future.
(00:26:41):
Right.
(00:26:41):
You're going to feel how it actually is.
(00:26:43):
You're going to see what works like.
(00:26:44):
Yeah, that's where you can detail the experimenter versus whatever the previous thing is.
(00:26:50):
Cool.
(00:26:50):
Yeah.
(00:26:51):
Last thing, does a word come to mind for the other side?
(00:26:53):
There's the experimenter and there's the experimental process and there's the,
(00:26:57):
what would the old style be?
(00:26:59):
Follow the path or something like that.
(00:27:02):
Right.
(00:27:02):
Yeah.
(00:27:03):
Keep following the path of others or something.
(00:27:05):
Yeah.
(00:27:05):
Something like that.
(00:27:06):
Cool.
(00:27:07):
Yeah.
(00:27:07):
Well,
(00:27:08):
I will send you a follow up with that question because I think that's,
(00:27:11):
but that's really what I would encourage you to look for.
(00:27:14):
And thanks so much for jumping on and talking about this.
(00:27:17):
Yeah, no, I really appreciate it.
(00:27:19):
Great questions.
(00:27:20):
And I'm excited to see you do this with a lot of other people as well.
(00:27:25):
Thanks.