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We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
You've been saying, oh, I think
this account is a little at risk.
'cause I just don't know if they're
getting the ROI that they need yet.
And turns out you're right.
Yeah.
The issue is that this client
has this unique business.
where they have really strict
lead qualification criteria.
And so our total lead
numbers are really good.
It's like prototypical ideal client
for grow and convert process.
We're ranking for these keywords.
We're getting tons of leads.
But they just have an insanely
specific qualification criteria
to where it goes from like 100
leads to like 3 high quality ones.
The client comes in on the call and
just starts off the call by just kind
of being straightforward and saying,
Like, we go through all of our reporting
stuff and then he just kind of asks the
question like, Well, We just really need
to scale the high quality number here.
And I don't know if we're
getting the ROI that we need yet.
No, no.
I remember his exact language.
He said, we have been
underwhelmed by the lead number.
And then what, what is this a
seven we're seven months in.
That's a key part of this story.
Seven months into the engagement.
And when I, as Johnny rain cloud was.
voicing in our internal slack updates.
We do these weekly updates on Mondays
where everyone kind of comments on
the accounts that they're on and what
are they worried about or whatever.
I had said, you know, everything about
this account on the surface Suggests that
the client is happy, but I'm uncomfortable
about it It was this because I was like
at some point with our rate if they're
really only getting like and back then
it was like Two two high quality leads
or whatever a month at some point.
They're gonna be
wondering what is going on
Okay, so we have another client
scenario or situation that's been
a challenge since I Seem to be the
one doing these really like Sort of
stressed out intros for all the videos.
I want to I want to see if you can do it.
So Benji Why don't you
describe to everyone?
What happened on a recent client call
that we are going to do analytics deep
dive, uh, to, to discuss what happened.
Okay.
We have this client.
Well, first off, I'll say Johnny rain
cloud has been worried about this
account for the last two or three months.
So I feel like I'm on
these calls more than you.
I think you were out for a couple of them,
but yeah, in the, in the background you've
been saying, Oh, I think this account
is A little at risk because I just don't
know if they're getting the ROI that they,
they need yet and turns out you're right.
So on, on this call, uh, the founder,
by the way, I want everyone listening
to know that he's referring to me.
I am Johnny rain cloud.
Uh, at a previous job, someone noted
that no matter how good the news
is, I can always find some way to
rain on the parade via the data.
So anyway, so yeah, so we, you thought
the results, we think the results are
pretty good, but yeah, I, so I'm looking
at the results and I think they're good,
but, but I think you've been looking
at just the, what, like the cost per
lead numbers or something like that.
And you're just like, I don't
know how they're getting there.
Yeah, the issue is that this client has
this unique business where they have
really strict lead qualification criteria.
And so our total lead
numbers are really good.
It's like prototypical, ideal
client for growing convert process.
Like, we're ranking for these
keywords, we're getting tons of
leads, but they just have an issue.
Insanely specific qualification criteria
to where it goes from like a hundred
leads to like three high quality ones
Yeah, so we've grown We've grown their
account from zero seven months ago to
125 leads per month But then the high
quality leads I think we're getting
three out of the 125 And I think
their their numbers that they shoot
for is one out of 40 Is high quality?
And that's, that's the strict
qualification criteria.
So the client comes in on the call and
just starts off the call by just kind of
being straightforward and saying, , we
go through all of our reporting stuff,
and then he just kind of asked the
question, like, well, we just really need
to scale the high quality number here.
And I don't know if we're getting,
we're getting the ROI that we need yet.
No, no.
I remember his exact language.
He said, we are, we have been
underwhelmed by the lead number.
And then what, what is this a seven?
We're seven months in, that's
a key part of this story.
Seven months into the engagement.
And when I, as Johnny rain cloud was
voicing in our internal slack updates,
we, we do these weekly updates on Mondays
where everyone kind of comments on
the accounts that they're on and what
are they worried about or whatever.
I had said, you know, everything about
this account on the surface, Suggests that
the client is happy, but I'm uncomfortable
about it It was this because I was like
at some point with our rate if if they're
really only getting like and back Then
it was like two two high quality leads
or whatever a month At some point they're
gonna be Wondering what is going on?
And then it happened and he said on
the call Exactly what I had feared
we have been underwhelmed by the
lead number You And I think he was
just asking an open ended question.
What, how do, how do we get this up?
Yeah.
And, and I looked at the numbers
and I thought they were really good.
So for context to like, so we were, I
think last month we got two high quality
and then they have something that they
deem average quality, both the average
and high quality are good enough leads
for them, for their sales team to work.
And then in terms of just the total
numbers last month, we got two out of
nine total for their entire business.
And so pause, pause this.
We need to slow down here.
What Benji is saying is their entire
website, their business in total last
month generated nine of these high
quality leads again, this is, they,
they generated total hundreds of total
leads and out of those high quality or
high and average, I forget which one
it is, but it was just high quality.
Yeah.
Is nine.
Total our content.
We've been in the
engagement for seven months.
The first month, one thing gets
published right at the end of the month.
So it's like six ish
months of published pieces.
Forget time to rank published
pieces, six ish months.
We generated two of those nine.
What is two divided by nine?
It's 22%.
So yeah.
So I look at those numbers
and I'm like, okay.
This is really good news.
So in seven months, we've been able
to make up 22 percent of their total
lead, high quality lead volume.
Then the numbers look good.
If we just continue at this rate.
We should see really great results,
like start making up 50 percent of
their total lead volume and then
eventually surpass however many
that they've generated on their own.
And then I'm also thinking, I
mean, I don't really know how long
they've been in business, but okay.
Say the business has been
around for two to four years.
So everything that they've done
up until this time Is generating
those nine leads a month.
And in seven months, we're
making up 22 percent of that.
So me looking at me looking at this
channel too, I'm also like, yeah, this
should be a no brainer to keep investing
in this because I don't even know what
else you could do in a seven month time
period, maybe paid ads, but in terms of
just the cost and return and how strict
they're, Lead qualification criteria
is I don't even know if paid would
be able to get those kind of results.
So all this led to a discussion on our
on our side internally, and we needed
to crunch more numbers to kind of show
the client that there was a positive
trend and that if they were just to Keep
continuing with us that this should be
a very profitable engagement for them.
Yeah.
I mean, he asked us, you know,
can you do any projections,
which is a little bit dicey.
So the business question at hand, as per
this video series about Our journey here.
Here are the things factored in.
As usual, in most of our
videos, we're gonna refer to the
churn video, which is episode.
What episode is that?
Three?
I think like three.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's one on churn.
Houston, we have a churn
problem or something like that.
Three.
Three.
It's episode three.
Um, and so the big thing
here is we, uh, seven months.
We, we, we want them to continue.
The conclusion of that video was clients
on average who stay with us for 12 months.
Stay with us for over two years.
If you last a year, you have waited
long enough for SEO to do its thing.
And especially our like high impact
conversion rate based SEO process.
And then you last for two plus years.
And the, if you're under 12 months,
you typically turn around now.
So that's kind of the problem.
But, but you also said if they make it to
eight, I think that they make it to 13.
So they're right on the cusp.
And I, and I feel like
these conversations.
Where the client starts to
feel a little bit uneasy.
They paid like six months
or seven months of invoices.
It all, all these conversations
typically happen in this time period.
So the six to eight month window
is right when you're starting to
hit liftoff on traffic and leads,
but you haven't done it yet.
And so the client's just starting
to wonder when am I going to
get paid back for this channel?
Yeah.
Um, and so what typical,
I don't know, you can.
Edit this out if I'm going to be too
mean here, but I'm just going to say it.
Like what typical agencies, what we
hear from clients frustrations with
past agencies is in these types of
conversations, what do agencies do?
And what did we do is, is the topic of
today's episode, but what we hear is that
clients get frustrated when agencies.
Sort of, um, what's the right word?
Like sugar coat and almost kind of
dismiss this kind of questioning
because it's hard when you're like,
guys, you know, I don't care that you
think our lead qualification criteria
is hardcore in my mind and in my world.
There's been two to three a month
and I'm paying you whatever,
8, 000, 10, 000 a month.
Like we, I want this to be higher.
And he kind of, Oh, by the way, he
kind of said like, if this continues
for longer, we're going to have to
reassess our resources, which is
just a very polite way of being like,
we're going to end the engagement.
Right.
Um, and so normally there's like
this whole, you know, like the
typical content agencies, like.
Just give it time, wait, blah, blah, blah.
But we and grow and convert
fashion measure leads.
Sort of extremely carefully through
all sorts of different lenses.
And what did we do?
We dove into the data.
And so we want to talk through the,
and show actually literally the data.
I've, I've, I've, you know,
X'd out the client name.
So let's, let's start doing that.
And then we can start with the article
that shows just this time period.
Where, where someone's at at this point
in the engagement, because I think
this helps add a lot of context to
what the client is feeling right now.
So this article is how long does it take
to rank on the first page of Google?
We'll link to it in the notes here.
Um, and we wrote this, I don't know
if we wrote it for that, but we wrote
this I think because this became a
pattern and the first graph in here.
So I'm just going to warn everyone,
this is going to start to get, But
if you're interested in, you know,
learning how and seeing how we kind of
answer these questions in depth, and
if you happen to be in the SEO content
field, this should be very educational.
I apologize to anyone
listening on the podcast.
I'll try my best to explain these graphs.
Um, but we also have this on YouTube where
you can literally see the screen share.
So I'm sharing my screen now.
So we have a graph here of an analysis
I did two years ago or something,
one or two years ago where there's
like 20, it's a scatter plot.
There's 20 dots on the screen.
Each dot represents a client.
The X axis is months engaged
with us and it goes 25.
And then the Y axis is number
of blog posts we have ranking on
page one of their target keyword.
And those go 125.
And what you see is flat zero from
zero to five months, meaning clients
who've been engaged with us from zero to
five months, basically have zero posts
ranking on page one, that's normal.
And this, and then it's sort of, there's
like a spread in the data, but it starts
to more or less linearly increase.
From months five to 10 to 15 to 20.
And then there's, you know,
data points out past 25.
And in fact, now we have, you know,
clients that have been with us.
In fact, this graph doesn't show one of
our best clients been with us for five
years, cause they are so high up off.
We have so many pages on page one with
you included that actually, I actually
do think that top right one is them.
It's, it's just from two years ago.
Oh, I thought I eliminated that
data point because it's scrunched
all the rest of the data down.
Nonetheless.
That's what we're looking at.
So we have like flat, flat, flat.
And then at five months,
it starts to increase.
So what we've noticed is right
around this five to seven month mark
where the curve inflects upward.
is where this trough of disillusionment,
quote unquote, where clients start
to question things because you've
paid our rates are 10 K a month
for content or eight K a month
with the one year commitment.
Also in the churn episode, we discussed
this, but you've paid, you know, five,
six, seven months of these invoices.
And you're thinking,
well, where are the leads?
Because we know leads come
from these page one rankings.
So if we don't have page one rankings
for the first few months, you don't
really have any leads or hardly any.
I wouldn't say we have zero in,
in those first four months, by the
way, I think it's just a function of
that zero to 25 band being so large.
And so it's just single digit
numbers for a lot of those.
Oh yeah.
So, so, so even, even here, like seven
months in, I think the client, if I
remember correctly, maybe has eight
to 10, uh, blog posts ranking in
those And in first page, no, no, no.
It's teens.
It's like 12 to 14.
We'll look at that data in a second.
So there, for those watching on
YouTube, their data point at month
seven is like exactly on this
trend line and their objection.
Is that the right word?
Or I don't know.
Questioning.
Hey, like what's going on?
Why don't we get more leads is also
exactly when we would expect it.
And we know, like we said, if we just
get them to last a little bit longer,
that's when they last for a long time.
Yeah.
Eight months gives us over a year over a
year typically gives us over two years.
So now let's look at their data.
So number one thing here,
total leads per month.
I'm going to zoom in on this.
Okay, so their total leads per month data.
So by the way, just let
me just kind of zoom out.
I'm sharing this, um, spreadsheet tab.
This is exactly what we show the client.
I'm, I'm X ing out the client's name.
Just looking at the bottom,
you see the level of, Analysis.
We do, we have tabs called
conversion charts, conversions
by post lead quality by post, um,
non, non GNC leads, et cetera.
So like we're slicing and dicing this
data in, in multiple different ways.
Um, and I'm just going to
walk through the graphs.
I'm going to try not to show the data,
you know, itself, but just keep some
level of like confidentiality here.
Total leads per month graph.
Look at this for this client.
Like we have from July, 2023
to last month, January, 2024.
I mean, this graph, for those of us,
not for those of you not watching on
YouTube, it's just like a beautiful,
like almost linear growth, right?
Um, from Z, you know, a single
digit numbers in July to over a
hundred total leads per month.
And what is this total leads?
Not for their business.
This is leads that we've attributed
via, they have some internal
attribution, it's not GA for, right.
They use like Salesforce data.
No, we use what converts for them.
So with what converts attributed to
our posts, meaning these are leads
that first landed on our blog posts.
And then submitted their lead
form over a hundred a month
attributed to our blog posts.
I mean, this is like outstanding
results, but as we said, this
client has ridiculously stringent,
um, requirements, which is okay.
That's their business.
Totally.
Okay.
That's their business.
Right.
Um, and their customers are
who their customers are.
And so there we, it's
like one, two, three.
So in September and October, we
had one, then in November, we
got three, then December two,
then back to three in January.
So this is what's causing that anxiety
as it should totally reasonable.
And so when the client asks, well,
these numbers seem underwhelming,
you know, what, what, what
can we expect going forward?
I would ask the audience,
how will you answer that?
What do you do?
Right.
Do you just say, no, no, look, I mean,
the first answer is obviously just look
at the trend it's up into the right.
Why wouldn't you want to keep seeing?
And then if they ask you, well, how,
you know, in a few months, what's
it going to get to the honest answer
from any marketer is, I don't know,
man, like, I can't predict the future.
We'll see.
Like, does, will it continue
increasing linearly?
That would be amazing.
Does it taper off?
You know, that, that could happen.
Like, we'll see.
So here's our thought process
and some analysis I did
literally like yesterday on this.
The first thing I wanted
to see is conversion rate.
And I'm going to stick to these
high and average leads because
that's what the client wants.
Why?
So first of all, what do
I mean by conversion rate?
Instead of just looking at overall
high and average leads for this
client by month, I wanted to look
at the conversion rate of percent
of organic traffic to our posts.
That's turning into
high and average leads.
Okay.
Actually I can show both.
I can show both of these
graphs side by side.
Um, and so why?
Because if that's steady, If there's
a given percent of all organic traffic
that's turning into leads and high, high
and average leads, then we have something
we can work with to try to predict it.
We would say, Oh, if it's 2 percent
or whatever, you know, we can say 2
percent of organic traffic leads to that.
So To get 10, as Benji mentioned,
per month, or at least last month,
their entire business generated nine
of these high average quality leads.
And so if we can, our posts can generate
10, then we ourselves have doubled it.
That's like, should be pretty good, right?
So 2% we can say, okay, multiply
whatever by 2% and get ten two hundred.
I should be able to do that
off the top of my head.
10 divided by 0.02 500.
So 500 times 2% is 10 or whatever.
And so when I plotted this
immediately for total leads, I
noticed something interesting.
The conversion rate is not steady.
It's been increasing over time,
meaning the percent of organic traffic
that's turning into leads back in
July and August in the summer when we
started is actually smaller than now.
Now it's more back then it was half
a percent, less than half a percent.
Then we approached 1 percent
somewhere in the fall.
Then in the winter, December,
January, we're now crossing 2%.
That itself, I'm going to pause here
was interesting and get your opinion.
Benji on why?
Like I would think, look,
grow and convert process.
We're going after these high
conversion keywords, high buying
intent, bottom of the funnel keywords.
You know, the conversion rate should
be good, but it should be steady.
And then our game, the game we're playing
is just to get more and more of these
rankings to get more traffic up multiplied
by a good, steady conversion rate, but
the conversion rate itself is increasing.
Yeah, I mean, it's good news.
Yeah, it makes sense to me.
I mean, basically because we're moving
on in our minds are the highest.
Converting topics in the very
beginning of our engagement and
it's taking a little bit of time
for those pieces to start ranking.
And so I think maybe in November,
December was when a couple of
those really high buying intent
pieces gotten to those top spots.
And so I think just from a conversion
rate perspective, that's when we're
starting to see conversions come through.
So then I would ask what, why was say
like, August or September converting
so low half a percent or one
probably because the traffic source
I don't know if all is this only
organic or is it all total traffic?
It's on organic.
Okay Actually, you make a good point.
What if when we first started publishing
the pieces and they weren't really
ranking highly for their target keywords
yet, and the target keyword we're
going after is the high buying intent.
Yeah, you publish it.
They have a decent domain
with a good long history.
It starts ranking for some random
serendipitous like long tail variations
that may not quite match the intent.
So you start to get some organic traffic.
But the intent of that traffic
is not as well matched for those.
And so you get some conversions,
but the conversion rate is low.
And then over time, as it starts
to rank for the intended target
keyword, that's like bottom of
funnel, we know it's going to convert.
Then you start to see these GNC, these
growing convert level conversion rates.
Oh, I actually didn't think
of that a lot yesterday.
So good.
We're talking through this.
So this itself was like, Okay.
This is very encouraging because now if
we present and we will to the client,
how, when you see these graphs, the
conversion rate itself increasing,
how do you stop that engagement?
Right?
Cause you're going to want to see how
high does the conversion rate get to?
What will it increase to?
And if the conversion rate is increasing,
then the higher and higher the conversion
rate, the less organic traffic we need
to get a same amount of conversions.
Yeah.
But both should be increasing both.
The.
The conversion rate and the
traffic to the pieces should
be increasing at the same time.
Right.
And the conversion, the traffic
times conversion rate is total leads.
So if both of those inputs is
increasing, your total leads
should be increasing very rapidly.
So it's like, again, what, if
you know this, that is not a
marketing channel you would stop.
Right, or you would end.
So then I wanted to go a little bit
further and do this same kind of
conversion rate analysis, but not as a
function of traffic, not leads divided by
traffic, which is typical conversion rate.
I wanna do it as a function
of number of rankings on page
one or top three positions.
Why?
Because even if we know conversion
rate, okay, we got conversion rate up
to 2, 3 percent or whatever, or for
the high and average, we got it to 0.
1 percent or something if
it goes past this to 0.
1%.
Yeah, but I would say, well, okay, then
we can figure out how much traffic we
need, but how do we know when we're
going to get that number of traffic?
Traffic was just, it felt a little
bit more like hard to predict.
For me, whereas number of first page
rankings, as per this article, like we
know the trend of most clients, like
at a year's time, most clients have
about 30 something, you know, somewhere
between 25 and 40 first page rankings.
So that's just a little bit
more like we have more data.
We can predict that a little bit
better traffic is harder because
those first page rankings for a
variety of clients, like they have
a different search volumes, right.
In different industries,
different businesses.
And so it's harder to predict that.
And so I did that and I'm going to
look at this one graph, you know,
high and average quality leads as
a function of first page rankings.
And that also is increasing that we have,
you know, at the, at the early stage
when we only had two page one rankings
for, for two keywords and then, uh, uh,
eventually like six or seven, we were only
getting a couple high and average leads.
And then more recently when
we've had over 10 page one
rankings, which can we just pause.
Six, seven months into
this content engagement.
And your content agency is ranking
on double digit 10 to 12 unique high
buying intent, not random top of funnel
keywords like bottom of funnel keywords
that when they Google it, they have
intent to buy your service on page one.
That is great.
Side note, I'm biased,
obviously, um, 10 to 12.
So when we get double digits, 10
first page rankings, 12, 14, now
we're seeing high to average leads
grow and we're seeing that grow.
So then we had, and I was
like, Oh, interesting.
Now I've, for those of you looking
at the screen share, I've fit a
trend line here that's linear.
But if you actually look at the
data points, it's not linear, right?
It looks like it's kind of
like this exponential curve
in reality would fit better.
But if we just pretend it's
linear for a second, then.
What we see, I thought to myself,
let's do some more advanced math.
If it's linear, I can calculate
what the slope of that graph is.
In other words, there's this, I
warned everyone that's going to
get a little bit mathematical.
So try your best to follow along.
There's a, we're talking to a bunch of
like content marketers and SEOs that
they're going to hear the next part
and their heads will just like stop.
There's this coefficient, right?
That translates number of first page
rankings times some number equals
these high and average quality leads.
I was like, what's that coefficient?
What's that number?
It's like a slope of that line.
What's the slope of that line?
And with some simple calculations,
it's actually, there's a great
Excel or spreadsheet function
literally called slope.
You can just put the data in.
It was 0.
23, meaning you can figure
out if I have 10 first page
rankings, you multiply that by 0.
23, that's 2.
3 high and average quality
leads for this client.
It's now becomes kind of predictive.
So I can say if it holds at 0.
23.
Then if you had 20, you'd have about
four of these high quality leads.
You know, if you have a hundred, you'd
have 23 of these high quality leads.
So I thought this is predictive now.
And now we can say, and then we know
that that coefficient is increasing.
The slope itself is increasing.
As I looked at that slope over time,
I then plotted the slope over time.
Like we're just, I was like,
okay, we have the data.
Let's lean into who we are as an agency.
And I'm just going to keep analyzing
this data like one after another to
keep asking why, why, why, why wasn't
there some business framework five?
Why is there something?
And so we know that that
slope itself is increasing.
In July and August, it was near zero.
In the fall, it moved to 0.
1, 0.
25.
And we have a beautiful graph of
that slope increasing and moving up,
meaning as time progresses, it is.
Just like the, this is basically
the same thing as conversion rate
going up, but it's, it's for a
first page rankings, not traffic.
And so I was like, this is amazing.
So we can now say, look, this graph
looks like it's, it's bound to hit 0.
3, 0.
4, maybe even 0.
5.
I don't know when it's going to stop
increasing and start to like taper off.
We don't know this, but again, if
you see this as a client and you
see your agency can analyze at
this level, how do you stop this?
We haven't had that call yet, but this is.
You know, this is that data.
I think it's good because again, I, as a
business owner, if I was in their shoes,
I just don't know what else you could do.
So their, their main goal is
obviously increasing the lead
volume of high and average leads.
We're both on the same page there.
We're trying to hit that.
They're trying to hit that.
If they were to remove content
as a channel or just remove us as
the agency doing this for them.
I don't know how.
You grow high and average leads quickly.
Like, so in the next six months or in the
next year, if they were to try something
else, I don't really know another channel
that they'd be able to replicate this.
Well, let's talk through that.
I mean, what about paid search?
That's the obvious one.
Yeah.
I think the cost per click is.
probably pretty high so you're probably
talking like five to ten dollars per click
but the key thing is then the conversion
rate of lead to high quality lead is
so low across their whole site that
you'd have to pay for so many clicks to
even just get the same number of leads.
That we're getting and then the conversion
rate from paid is probably going to be
even less than what we're getting on the
content side So it just always is like
there's so much context that we that we
have in our blog posts On every topic.
So every high intent topic, you're
going into detail, explaining
nuances of whatever that topic is.
Whereas on the paid side, it's just
a very broad landing page typically.
And so it just doesn't
give us much information.
And I think people are a lot less
likely to convert on the paid
side than on the content side.
I mean, we see, we see a higher
conversion rates and higher
quality conversion rates on content
overpaid almost every single time.
And so I just, I think the amount of
money that they would have to spend to
get even the same results that we're
getting on paid is too high for them.
And then I don't know what else.
I don't know what else you do.
Like, I just don't, I don't
know what else you do.
Like maybe if they were, if they had
like some partnership or some other
source, whether they could get access
to these leads, maybe they could get the
same thing, but again, starting a new
channel from scratch is, is challenging.
So anytime you start a new channel,
there's probably six to six months to a
year of learnings before you're, you're
really starting to hit your stride.
So what about paid social?
I mean, you have even
less buying intent there.
So you, you would have to be able to
figure out what the right targeting is to
get in front of those exact right people.
I think a lot of people in this
situation, or maybe even listening
would think, Oh, you have a, you have a
company that has really stringent lead
qualification criteria, like only some
companies, um, LinkedIn, LinkedIn paid.
LinkedIn is where you can, um,
target, you know, by like just
ridiculous company metrics.
No, because they have such
a specific audience that.
You couldn't back into the
targeting with LinkedIn.
Like you wouldn't be able
to get specific enough.
That's true that we can't
describe it more than that.
I know I want, I want to, but
we can't, but they wouldn't
be able to target that way.
I, to be honest, I think if there's
another reason, which is that LinkedIn
is ridiculously expensive cost per click.
I think it goes back to that
tiny conversion rate to what
they call high quality leads.
When you have a tiny conversion
rate, you have a business that has
that really high conversion rate.
It means when you're using a paid channel,
this is what Benji was saying for paid
search and it applies to LinkedIn as well.
You're going to need.
A ton of clicks.
Ton of clicks to get one lead.
'cause you have a tiny conversion rate.
And if you're paying $5, $10
on LinkedIn, it says something
that's like 20 bucks a click.
If you need 200 clicks, look at,
look at the amount of traffic that
we're getting and how much converts.
So even if we said paid gets the
same conversion rate, which it
wouldn't, let's say a thousand,
2000 clicks at five, 10 bucks.
Like you, you're already.
Creeping up on the cost for a
lead, not for a customer, a lead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the only, the only thing that
I can think of that they would be able
to do is targeted outbound prospecting.
Like that's the only thing, that's the
only channel that I could even, uh,
because I, because again, companies are
like the, you know, beforehand are a fit.
And so then you have a targeted
list, you have to pitch them.
But even that would require like building
out a prospecting team, building out like
a whole sales process, building out the
right messaging, the amount of, and then,
and then figuring out a source of data
that would even give you those prospects.
I, I don't even know.
Yeah.
Where are you?
All that.
Yeah.
The SDR costs and all that.
That's not, that's not going to be
because they have such a specific
target that they're going after.
I don't even know if there is
a data source that would be
able to get that information.
Maybe there's a couple, but yeah, I
mean, it's building out an entirely
new channel from scratch and
then It's unproven at this point.
So, yeah, and there's been some
discussions on those, the calls there
about like, you know, some other content
ideas that we would all qualify as top
of funnel, you know, that leads to, um,
you know, on our side, sometimes when
that happens, it can be tough, but it's
just something you have to deal with
on the agency side where you're, we're
thinking this is obviously better, right?
Like bottom of the funnel content has
a higher conversion rate, but like, You
know, sometimes if the, if the client
really believes in some other method,
and even if you are like, look, I
have hundreds of data points across a
bajillion clients across five, six years
of our work that shows that that's,
that this method that we do is better.
Like, you know, they don't
have that background.
That's just kind of like some of the
emotional rollercoaster of, of being
in this seat is that we, we have such
confidence in In our method, because we
have seen this across so many different
businesses across years of work that
we're like, guys, trust me, like
that's not going to work or whatever.
They don't have that.
And so way we've approached it is try to
show this data, that article we published,
we published these articles, we're
doing video like this, like, honestly,
like this, this, this could probably
make a good growing convert blog post.
Right?
Some, you know, I don't know, we kind
of generalize or analyze this data, and
then we say like, here's some advanced
ways to predict conversions from SEO.
Ooh, I'm kind of convincing myself.
Maybe I think it is a good idea.
You know, but before Before you
actually crunched the data, I didn't
know how we would come up with
the predictive way to see how many
months it would potentially take.
Yeah, same.
I just sat down last night as
I was watching my Warriors win
another basketball game, and in
commercials I would pause and
like, play around with the data.
Like, so that's kind of how I do
this, is I'm like, okay, well,
I just asked myself a question.
Well, so what's the conversion rate?
Is that steady or what number is it?
And then I calculate that.
Then I see something interesting.
All the conversion rates going
up and then sort of ask the next
question and go up from there.
If anyone's, by the way, is listening and
is like, Oh, this seems really advanced.
You do it.
How do I do this?
If you think about this.
None of the actual calculations
I did are that complicated.
It's like divide this number by
that number, like do this and that.
It's just like, you
have to gather the data.
First of all, is the biggest challenge.
Like you need to have this data conversion
rate from specific URLs over time, and
then you need to just invest the time and
have the curiosity to play around with it.
Anyway, I was getting distracted.
Our approach to this
client education has been.
We're gonna lean on this data
because we feel like we don't
need to do this kind of fluffing,
sugarcoating, whatever, whatever.
We have this.
We can't solve.
I think I see a lot of agency type
folks on Twitter on social media.
There's this kind of culture from the
marketer expert of making fun of clients
who like quote unquote don't get it right.
Don't you see like these tweets
where it's like I say this client
says that this client or whatever.
Look, everyone in our seat feels
it like we get frustrated too.
That's life.
Um, but I think maybe a more healthy
and empowering way to do it is, well,
if you know something that the client
doesn't, and you think if they knew
this, they would, you know, see, see
what I'm seeing or see the light.
Then that's on you to some extent.
And that's how we've approached it.
Like it is on you.
Right.
So like we approach it by like,
okay, look, let's write about it.
Let's show these articles.
Let's have this call.
Like we're proposing to the client.
We're not going to wait
until the next monthly call.
We want to talk about this immediately.
Cause we don't want these
worries to stew in their head.
Is we sort of lean into it and be
like, let's solve this problem.
In fact, to get a little bit too
philosophical or historical, this mindset
of approaching our engagements this
way is what created pain point SEO.
Because we were doing top of
the funnel stories back then.
And as per whatever piece that explains
that a founding story of pain point
SEO is a framework that client back
then pushed us and said, Why are
we doing all these random stories?
They're not helping our business.
Only these three pieces are.
So we lean into it, and instead of saying,
This client is so ridiculous, blah blah
blah, like, oh, they're so frustrating.
Don't you see these stories
are helping the brand?
We were like, you know
what, he's kind of right.
And so we said, how do we only do that?
What's separating those
pieces of from working?
And then eventually pain
point SEO came from that.
Yeah.
And even the blog posts that you sh you
showed earlier, just with the, how long it
takes to rank that also came from, I think
either prospects questioning us or clients
questioning us, just how long is it really
going to take to start seeing results?
And we didn't really have a
good answer for that before.
And so we looked at all of the data.
And then created that scatterplot
and then it was just really clear to
us after looking at that data, just
where that inflection point was.
And now we use that as a way to set
expectations on every single sales call.
And in the, in the beginnings of clients
engagements, because I feel like even if
you say it on the sales call, once you
get a few months in and you start paying
those invoices again, you, you, that,
that worry comes back that I'm never going
to receive see return from this channel.
And so just showing the client data
that we've seen across a number of
different businesses that there's
that inflection point that happens
between month five and eight, I
really think helps set expectations.
And frankly, from what we've heard,
no other agencies doing this.
People don't show that data.
They don't have it.
They don't show it.
They don't lean into it.
I'm going to say something again.
This may be a little bit cocky, probably
because the data is not very good.
They just don't, they just
don't, they don't analyze it.
Yeah.
It's funny if I, so we created that post
to try to rank for how long does it take
to, to rank on the first page of Google?
And if you look at the SERP, there's
like a bunch of other posts that
just give some random number.
They'll, they'll say like, Oh,
three, three months or six months.
And it's like, but there's no
data actually backing that, that
they, I see it on Twitter too.
People just throw out like, Oh, if
you're not showing results in less than
six months on SEO, your agency sucks.
Like they'll really like, yeah,
there's been this big thing.
Cause like their services all
in like revolved around updating
existing pieces and just showing.
Movements and rankings and things like
that there again, they're not measuring
all the way through conversion So yeah,
I mean it's easy to show quick wins I
mean, we could start with just traffic.
Yeah.
We can update some posts
and get more traffic.
We could come into a client
engagement in month one.
Like it, like what David said
yesterday, updating that blog
post, moved it in a few hours.
Yeah.
You, you can make changes to a site
and see immediate improvement, but is
it improvement on the right metrics?
So yeah, we can, we can improve some,
we could update some blog posts.
And see the ranking position
move from 10 to 5 or 10 to 1.
But does that blog post even
generate leads for the client?
I will say since part of this video
series is about like the, uh, sort of
emotional ride that we're going through
and doing this, uh, just to be candid
with everyone, I do get frustrated when
I see like other, I don't know, SEO
content folks sort of publish this.
And like, I just think sometimes
there's this thing in our
field where the clients just.
They don't know enough
to smell the bullshit.
You know what I mean?
And so like, they're like, Oh yeah, this
SEO agency increased traffic really fast.
And like the agency is not mentioning,
or maybe he's not even aware that most
of that traffic is not converting.
It's just traffic.
And so sometimes I'm frustrated.
I'm like, we're doing
things the right way.
Like we're actually measuring
conversions and showing conversion rate.
Like who does this?
And it's like, but sometimes
that is a bearer of bad news.
But other agencies are just like, we
got the traffic to increase to this.
And then people are like, I want
more traffic as clients come to
us, literally in our lead form.
It's like, what do you want?
And they're like more traffic
or our traffic went down.
We want more traffic.
And we have to get on a call,
more traffic, more leads.
And again, that was the premise
that we started the business on.
And we realized that's not true.
You can grow traffic and your
lead volume doesn't increase.
Why?
Because the traffic comes from.
blog posts that don't have
any conversion intent.
And I feel like we've had conversations
in the past where I've been like in our
low moments of growing convert years
ago when I was like, Benji, screw it.
Like, why don't we just, people want
traffic, even though we know that
the majority of this traffic is not
doing anything for their business.
That's what they want.
Give them what they want.
Mcdonald's makes a lot of money.
They're not helping anyone get healthier.
They know that stuff's going
to kill you, but like you want
French fries sometimes it's tasty.
It's just not our business.
I feel like solving the actual problem
is this the sustainable business long
term, because again, at some point,
someone's going to ask how much return
am I getting and, and it's not going
to be measured on traffic and solving
the real problem is more defensible.
Even in this situation, the client
comes to us and says, We have to
think about reallocating our budget.
Okay.
Well, at least we're
focused on getting them ROI.
And if we can get the ROI number
up, they're not going anywhere.
Like if we were just focused
on traffic, what do you do?
Like, okay.
You try to get more traffic
and just hope it converts.
That's why even the churn, when I did that
churn analysis that led to that video,
I was frustrated because I'm just like,
sometimes I do think that I'm like, come
on, like we're doing things the right way.
We're focused on the metric
that actually matters.
We're literally educating
these clients on this.
They're, they don't, they
haven't done this analysis.
They don't, they're not
even thinking like this.
They're just like, well, I just want
my business to grow, which is fine.
That's reasonable.
Right.
And then, and then when I was like,
wait, why is our churn at like 12 months
or whatever, our average lifespan,
um, it should be higher, but so be it.
Sometimes it does feel like we're
revealed, we're being more honest.
About the truth of these marketing
numbers, these SEO numbers.
And sometimes I feel like our honesty
bites ourselves, you know, because
we're like revealing to the client
something they didn't even think.
And then, and then when they see that,
they're like, Whoa, this is tough.
You're like, yeah, it is tough.
Whereas if we just sort of didn't talk
about it and you had some client that
just sort of was ignorant of these things.
And I don't mean that in a bad way,
just like literally doesn't know.
And it just thinks the traffic is good.
And then our agency is like, here's
more traffic and they think it's good.
And no one is, no one on any side is
measuring conversion rate that it's almost
like bliss, blissful ignorance thing.
But look, I say this,
but I agree with you.
There's a reason, right?
Like the, our agency is
focused on what it is.
It's borderline.
I would feel almost unethical to it.
Like, it's like, you know, Yeah.
And when I send your like, like McDonald's
or Coca Cola, Coca Cola to build a
billion dollar business, feeding people
sugared water, that's not good for
them, but like, you know what I mean?
So like we can build a Coca
Cola of content marketing, just
here, give yourself traffic.
It's just like, it's a quick hit.
Oh, this tastes good.
You know, but in the end,
that's not who we are.
And we're leaning into this.
And I agree with you.
I think long term, hopefully
that's more sustainable.
And now we have a path.
We have the data to be like, we just
need to show them these results from
a lead perspective to 12 months.
And we already know if they do
that, they stay with us for years.
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