People: The Individual and The Group

How can Essential Dynamics help us think about Covid restrictions? What does Essential Dynamics teach to navigate masking, vaccines and politician vacations?

Show Notes

Derek is at derekhudson.ca. 
See full show notes at the Essential Dynamics Wiki.

What is Essential Dynamics with Derek Hudson?

Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!

Reed: 00:17

Hello, and welcome back to Essential Dynamics, the podcast where we learn about how businesses and lives are affected by certain philosophies. I'm here with Derek Hudson, former CEO and, business guru whose philosophies have, inspired these these conversations. My name is Reed McColm. I'm your exceptionally handsome host. You can't quite see me, but, just trust me on that.

Reed: 00:50

Alright, Derek. How are you? How are doing? I'll vouch

Derek: 00:53

for you. You're looking good today.

Reed: 00:54

Well, thank you very much, Derek. You're looking just about as good.

Derek: 00:58

As good as anybody can look on a, you know, two inch by three inch window on my laptop.

Reed: 01:03

But Yeah. There we are. We're back in Zoom for these podcasts because of the COVID restrictions. We have vaccines coming down the line, but we're still in a position now of, making sure that it doesn't get worse before it gets better. That brings up some real questions for me, Derek.

Reed: 01:24

And so if you don't mind, I'll start with the you know, we've talked in the past podcast about your essential dynamic philosophy being, based on on people, path, and purpose and and purpose x and purpose y, and I've been thinking a lot about that. And, now I I kind of I wanna know how it reflects in in these COVID times. We have we have gone through some unprecedented, social changes in the past year. And, one of them well, for me, I've been locked down and learning to do a lot of things by Zoom as we're doing now. And I think I think there's a there's a dilution or I don't somehow, we're coming down to the essentials of life here.

Reed: 02:27

And I and what really matters to us, especially this past holiday season has been, somewhat truncated by solitude or at least isolation for certain families. And I wonder how that affects how we can make essential dynamics fit in this. How does how can Essential Dynamics help us think about the COVID restrictions? Let's start there.

Derek: 03:00

Well, fantastic question. And, of course, without even trying, I've been doing a lot of that as I've developing the work on essential dynamics and then facing the COVID restrictions in my own life. Yeah. So let let me just review. Essential dynamics is the idea that we can define the things that we try to do as people as a quest.

Derek: 03:27

And in a quest, the group of people head out on some perilous journey to achieve some important purpose. Okay. And so I like to break that up then as people, path, and purpose. And, of course, the journey and the and the quest only really makes sense if we're trying to right something wrong or defend ourselves against some some danger. And so the idea of opposition comes in and that's, what we mean when we talk about dynamic forces.

Derek: 03:59

And so what I've done is I've taken the idea of dynamic forces, that yin and yang, that opposition in all things, and applied it differently to the people side, the path side, and the purpose And in past episodes, we talked about purpose x and purpose y being two aspects of dynamic forces on the purpose side. And we talked about drivers and constraints being those things that affect the system, which we refer to as the path. So now we're in the people. We haven't talked about it yet. So for me, the the dynamic forces that we consider when we talk about people are really the challenge that each individual has with two desires that aren't the same.

Derek: 04:48

One of them is that you wanna be true to your own self. Yes. You wanna have sort of individual autonomy and you wanna, you know, stay solid and strong as an individual. But on the other side, on the other hand, we have this real need to belong to a group, to be connected to other people.

Reed: 05:10

I agree. I find we have now entered into the lexicon the phrase social distancing, which when it was first introduced in February or 02/2020, I thought was a contradiction in terms, like saying jumbo shrimp. In order to be social, distancing doesn't come into it.

Derek: 05:37

So so that's the that's the real interesting I mean, we're gonna talk about this for this whole episode and and maybe more because there's so much, to illustrate that dynamic tension between the individual and the group in the COVID situation that we have. So Okay. For example, you know, I have this wonderful extended family. My siblings, their kids, my in laws, my stepmom. And then we have Travis and I have our own nuclear family that's not nuclear anymore because their kids are grown and they have their own spouses and some of them have their own kids.

Derek: 06:22

Those are people that we really love. And, you know, at Christmas time especially, then we really love being together. And so it was super weird this year that the way you show love to people

Reed: 06:35

Is by staying apart.

Derek: 06:37

Is to not go to their house or not have them in your house.

Reed: 06:41

And that was an unusual, and and and for some people, brain frying kind of situation. A lot of people took offense to it. Now we're about to talk people, and that to me is is the largest, most unpredictable factor. I think people are in infinitely capable of,

Derek: 07:13

well, dynamics. So so the per the purpose well, I don't know. Working through essential dynamics and trying to get things having having a few I mean, a few yeah. Having only a few things to talk about. Trying to take all the various factors that you could talk about in an organization or trying to get something done and break it down to very few.

Derek: 07:39

When I thought about people, when I came on this idea that the real tension is between individually our desire to be our own person and to belong to the group. And then the flip side of that in an organization is I want the people all to comply with everything that we set out the way that this company or organization works. I want the people all to comply, and I want them all to bring their best selves, and I want them all to be creative and think out of the box.

Reed: 08:10

And We brought up COVID. I'm sorry. I'm interrupting.

Derek: 08:13

No. No. And so so the COVID situation plays that out in all kinds of different ways. Yeah. Social distancing is one.

Derek: 08:21

Masking is another one.

Reed: 08:25

All the restrictions of COVID have you've mentioned you hope that if you were if it was run like a business, then there's nobody who wants COVID. Nobody likes COVID. Nothing nothing about COVID has been fun. But there's, there have been hopes on certainly from the government's perspective that everybody would fall in line and and, behave in the same way in order to overcome the the threats of the virus. But people are not built, in the same way, all of us, and some people just outright refused to, follow COVID restrictions because they founded they founded a an imposition on their freedom.

Derek: 09:14

You know, I absolutely read, and that's so that's this this, you know, individual, autonomy part of, you know, the the dynamic in people on the people side. And so and for some people, it's it gets to the point where it's not even rational anymore.

Reed: 09:33

And rational. That's these days, a lot of things are not rational. And during the year of COVID, we have found ourselves ex in a social explosion of Black Lives Matter, individual diversity diversity being far more insistent in businesses and social events.

Derek: 10:04

So you say diversity, but I think what you're talking about is is wokeism.

Reed: 10:09

Okay. Sure. Sure. You know? A lot of people want social change, and they want it now.

Derek: 10:15

Yeah. And so so one of the things that I I think where Essential Dynamics can help is the recognition for all of us is that we all want to both be our own bosses and belong to a group. Yeah. And I think one of the things that's happened in the last couple of years, and we've talked about this before, is this polarization of, positions. And so you can kinda only be on one team.

Derek: 10:45

You can only be, you know, on on one side. And if you don't agree with someone in every way, then you're the enemy on the other side.

Reed: 10:53

Are you referring to cancel culture?

Derek: 10:55

There's certainly, there's cancel culture. There's, you know, right wing extreme extremism and left wing extremism. And, even just like, let's just talk about masks for a sec.

Reed: 11:07

Yeah. Yeah. I wanna talk about masks. I wanna talk about the restrictions and how essential to nap dynamics applies.

Derek: 11:16

So one of the you know, I guess I guess we don't really make the contract, you know, because we're born into into into society. But the deal is that if we want the benefit of being in a group, we have to give up some of our individual autonomy. Okay. Yeah. And I think that we all benefit from being in groups.

Derek: 11:46

You know, you can't perform dental surgery on yourself very easily unless you're Tom Hanks and you have a figure skate. But, you know, I really like eating food that other people make.

Reed: 12:01

Oh, very much. I very much enjoy food that other people clean up.

Derek: 12:05

And I like driving across bridges.

Reed: 12:09

Yes.

Derek: 12:09

You know, rather than swimming across the river. Like, we are a a social society, and we draw great benefit from the contributions of all kinds of other people in our lives. And that's just like, that's just physical. Like, that's just sort sort of, you know, infrastructure and goods and services. And then we recognize, you know, when we when we get social distancing forced on us, that that's not the most important connection that we have with the group.

Derek: 12:38

The most important connection we have with the group is to be with other people, to be part of a tribe, to be part of a family. And so we all have that inherent challenge in each of us. So when you have something like masking come up, then, you know, you can go right to, well, I have the right. You know, the government can't tell me what I can put on my face or what I have to put on my face. But I have a personal right.

Derek: 13:10

And there may be I mean, there's certainly the desire for autonomy, which we should recognize. But there's the other side of it is that, you know, we do function in these groups. And the reality is, and it's now proven out with a year's experience, that if we're close to other people and those people are close to other people, that enhances the spread of a virus, which no government official, no scientist invented. Nobody wanted it to happen. It's nature taking its course.

Derek: 13:42

And somehow, as individuals, we still have our rights. And we do have the right to choose, but we don't necessarily have the right well, we absolutely do not have the right to control the consequences of our choice. And so when you see a super spreader, you know, family social event, you know, nature is relentless. The virus does what the virus does. Yes.

Derek: 14:08

So there's an argument, you know, for for massive restrictions and control. But I think that that argument in itself doesn't recognize that part that each of us have where we say, you're not the boss of me. You can't tell me what to do. And, you know, I think we saw in Alberta over Christmas and in Canada and maybe other places, although I don't I don't know that I I saw anything, where we had people who were making the rules Yes. Also say, you're not the boss of me.

Reed: 14:43

Right. And do we had a an issue of we should probably say for our outside of For our international for our international audience. For an international audience. Yeah. We should probably we should probably bookend this conversation by saying that we've had in Alberta and in Canada generally a, a problem of of, politicians in charge begging us to be isolated and stay at home, over the holidays where but the politicians themselves, to a great extent, did not heed that advice.

Reed: 15:19

And we've just we're just learning of many politicians who went, out of country, to enjoy family vacations or extended family vacations. And, that kind of hypocrisy has been much debated in the social, venues that are available to us here in Canada. We don't have any we don't have a conclusion to that yet. I don't think anybody's been charged with a crime, but the hypocrisy is is maddening when you sense that the government is yelling at us with one, on one hand and behaving differently as if with a cavalier attitude, as if they're better than than the rules. Yeah.

Derek: 16:10

I mean, just it's mind boggling that that it happened. And and then when you think about it, you know, we try to balance this. There's this individual need to be the boss, and then this also need to to be in a community and support a community. And I'm just wondering that if we thought about it a little bit differently, would we do better, and can we still do better?

Reed: 16:37

K. Explain that. Expound

Derek: 16:41

Well, if for for one thing, for the people who feel that their rights are being violated, would we can we do better if we acknowledge that that's an imposition? If we acknowledge that we do want people to have their own sovereignty in a sense and self determination, and and we do want that. But that's you know, recognize that there is a price for living in a group, and there's probably two prices. One of them is we have to do group decision making Yeah. Which is bad enough on your school project team and terrible when you have a nation of 300 people that can't get their stories straight.

Reed: 17:27

We also have to recognize that people are are going to have different opinions in it. Although we don't nobody wants these restrictions, nobody want I don't like wearing a mask. However, I have been told on many occasions that I look better with one. But, there's there's a there's a feeling of, reluctance to follow these particular but in hope of a better society is what we're all trying to to get to. Would you agree with that?

Derek: 18:02

Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, it may not have been our choice to be born into it, but we all benefit from having, you know, a diverse society of people with all kinds of different skills and abilities and all kinds of interactions. Like, we all benefit from that. And we each whether it's legal or not, we each have an individual responsibility to contribute to that.

Derek: 18:27

But when the society starts to disrespect that individual that that compulsion that we have each of us to be our own person, and society starts to disrespect that, then it can turn really bad. And I mean, here we are. This is January 7. Yesterday, people stormed the US Capitol and got in Yeah. Because they felt that their individual rights to speak about who should be their leader hadn't been respected.

Derek: 19:01

That's just that's just crazy times. So, like, we have to we have to do better, and and we're not gonna do better if one side wins over the other side.

Reed: 19:10

No. That's that's true. We don't want, the kind of conflict between people that, that would cause physical and mental violence. And I'm not sure we've seen the end to that story yet, but we'll get into that another day. Today, we'll probably come back to these conversations again because there's a lot to discuss about the individual in the group.

Reed: 19:36

And I think part of our our greatest challenge is found in the people and how we come to a a united decision. I mean, look at you were just talking about yesterday storming the Capitol. Even though they had an election in November, they could not accept the results of the election because of, distrust and how that distrust is fomented, by somebody who couldn't accept a loss. Well, I betrayed myself there, haven't I? But I I do feel that, we're going to have a lot more conversation about this, and, in central dynamics could help us understand why we act the way we do.

Reed: 20:21

Derek, where can they reach you if they are looking for you?

Derek: 20:25

For your listeners? If if you found the podcast, you can find my website. It's DerekHudson.ca. And I'm certainly welcome to comments and questions and ideas for more episodes on the podcast.

Reed: 20:38

Yes. We'd certainly welcome that. And, I'm Reed McCollum. I'm very glad that you were able to join us today. Our engineer is Bryn Griffiths.

Reed: 20:47

And, until next time, consider your quest.