Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Tap to send me your reflections ♡ How is it to experience the space where time & effort cease to exist? Join us as we explore the concept of flow with Dr. Sue Jackson, a distinguished psychologist and author, who shares the wisdom of 30-years of research and brings her expertise across sports, business, education, and everyday life. In this episode... We navigate the nuanced relationship between flow, perfectionism, and mindfulness (this was particularly resonant as I listened back...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
How is it to experience the space where time & effort cease to exist?
Join us as we explore the concept of flow with Dr. Sue Jackson, a distinguished psychologist and author, who shares the wisdom of 30-years of research and brings her expertise across sports, business, education, and everyday life.
In this episode...
I love how Sue guides us through the art of balancing challenge, trust in ourselves and skill to avoid the pitfalls of anxiety and boredom, whether on the ski slopes or tackling a mundane household task.
This episode celebrates the universal appeal - and the essential nature - of flow.
READ MORE
Sue's book Experiencing Flow: Life Beyond Boredom and Anxiety, is available direct from her or Amazon UK,
***
A piece of quiet
Your weekly pause - a calming relaxation practice, every Wednesday. A few minutes to settle, a few minutes to write. First aid for the soul.
Join here - use the code PEACE for 20% off your first year
Let’s stay connected
Sign up to hear more - and only receive what speaks to you.
Join the list here
everyday ♡ compassion
Tiny reminders of self-love and presence, delivered three times a week.
Subscribe here
Free Events & Small Group Courses
Explore the power of Flow Journaling, self-compassion and gentle change in a supportive space.
See what’s on
Solo Retreats at Bach Brook
Rest, reflect and reconnect – fully supported in a place of deep natural beauty.
Retreat with me
Books, Journaling Resources & Self-paced Courses
Explore tools for inner connection and compassionate growth.
Visit the library
Free 20-minute Call
Explore whether coaching could support what’s calling for change.
...
A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Speaker 1: Before we dive in
today, I just need to apologise
for the quality of the audio.
Something appears to have
happened with my mic and, rather
than waste this amazing
conversation, I'm choosing to
share it with you and hope that
the sound isn't going to be too
distracting for you and that you
can listen in flow.
And that you can listen in flow
.
What does the word flow mean to
you?
Is it something that feels hard
to attain, to achieve, to hold
on to?
Is it something that feels so
familiar that, the moment you
hear the word, your body softens
?
Is it something that makes you
curious, something that you'd
like to invite into your life a
little bit more, perhaps?
My guest today is Dr Sue
Jackson.
She is a renowned psychologist
and the author of the book
Experiencing Flow Life Beyond
Boredom and Anxiety.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
I just like to repeat that
title.
I think it's um, really
inviting in so many ways that
this unity between boredom and
anxiety, and I've got a personal
story around that which may or
may not come through when I'm
talking with Sue, but it
involves skiing.
Anyway, she is a pioneering
researcher on the concept of
flow and closely collaborated
with the founder of the flow
concept, um.
She's been working in this
field for over 30 years, mainly
in the domains of sport,
business, business, education,
but also daily life as well.
So I'm really looking forward
to chatting with her, and I
think you know, if you're
familiar with the podcast, then
you'll know that this concept of
flow is something which is
really important to me
personally and particularly in
relation to flow journaling.
So I'm hoping at some point
we'll be able to chat about that
too, and I can see that sue is
in the waiting room, so I'm
going to let her in.
So, sue, I am so delighted to
welcome you here and actually,
just from the few minutes that
we've been talking about some of
the kind of logistics of how we
do this conversation, I already
have a sense that this is going
to be a really beautiful
conversation.
I feel I can feel the edges of
flow already drifting actually,
and that's nice.
Speaker 2: Thanks, henny.
Speaker 1: Thanks for inviting
me on oh it's wonderful and, and
I really I mean actually that
conversation that we've just had
about.
Do we do this just as a video?
Do we do?
It with video as well.
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear
again sort of what you were just
saying about how that can
inform the way that we show up
and how that informs the state
of flow uh, sure, well, I mean,
I guess it's not everybody's
experience, but, like for me, um
, I was just commenting that
it's the end of the day here in
Australia and, um, I'm a little
on the tired side and that it's
actually a relief to know that I
don't have to put energy into
the video side of things,
because, as we'll talk about,
one of the dimensions of flow is
actually loss of
self-consciousness, and I think
I mean, another option is that I
take my own visual image out of
the picture, which would be
fine too, and then I don't have
to worry about it.
So that's another way, I guess,
of dropping self-consciousness.
But, yeah, like I, we're just
talking about how to have, you
know, a nice conversation and
we're obviously both interested
in flow and um, so, yeah, we can
, we can have the eye contact,
which I think is important to
like have a good conversation,
but without having to sort of
worry about, um, the
self-consciousness side of
things that creeps in when you
are looking at yourself.
Speaker 1: Basically, and I
think it's such a, it's such a
lovely observation, because it's
also one of those things,
because we're so used to this
form of communication these days
we are yeah, it's since all the
, the lockdowns and and the
pandemic that maybe we actually
forget that they're.
Oh, there we go.
I think we just sort of
slightly had a hiccup in the
connection between here and did
you see that?
Okay, we'll just carry on?
Yeah, um, yeah, we'll just and
it's just technology right,
exactly, and I think that's
that's also sort of one of the
things is sort of losing our
attachment to things being
perfect.
Yeah, again, that's that's also
sort of part of what flow feels
like for sure.
Yeah, perfectionism and flow
don't go together yeah, so
there's something about that
kind of acceptance of this is
how it is, and for you and I to
have this conversation, the most
important thing is that we're
comfortable and that we're
present, and exactly that.
So I think it was really
interesting for me for me when I
was um, looking at your book
and recognizing, yeah, like I
know, I know these things
innately, I know the truth of
what your research is
demonstrating, um, and so I
would love to, I would love to
kind of dive in actually and
just talk about what is flow.
How do you describe what flow?
Speaker 2: is yeah, and I'm also
interested to hear how you do,
because I know you've recently
written a book on a flow journal
.
Um, I'm interested to learn
more about that.
I know you've recently written
a book on a flow journal.
I'm interested to learn more
about that, henny.
So I recently published a book
in June, so I think just after
after yours perhaps and it's
called experiencing flow life
beyond boredom and anxiety, and
it outlines the journey that
I've taken with flow since I
first learned about it in my
graduate studies in North
America, when I was studying at
the time sports psychology, and
I came across this book on flow
and it was called Life Beyond
Boredom and Anxiety, written by
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
It's his first book where he
describes this experience and I
was like, yeah, I've had that
experience and and yet I didn't
know there was a language around
it and um.
So the book is really about
trying to continue the legacy of
um Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, or
Mike's work, um, since his death
a couple of years ago, because
I think it's such a valuable
concept, such a valuable
psychological state for us to
understand and to understand
that it is accessible, as I'm
sure you are well aware
absolutely.
Speaker 1: I love that, that,
the sense of accessibility,
though there was a.
There was a line in your book
which I think I'm not sure
whether that it's a line that
mike coined or it's something
that's come from your
observations, your research but
it's this line that um flow is
the space where time and effort
cease to exist, and that, yeah
that's a good description of
flow.
Just saying those words, I feel
in my system everything softens
, settles, because the hard
edges of time constraints and
the hard edges of effort melt.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Yeah, well, you've just
described a couple of the
characteristics of flow, which
is this this sense of time
changing in our perception, and
also that concentration becomes
more effortless, and I think
that's kind of the maybe the
signature characteristic of flow
is the sense that you can focus
on what you're doing without it
requiring a lot of effort.
Now it is requiring effort
because, to say, focused on a
task does, but in flow we're
bringing all of our attention to
what we're doing, and so then
we drop some energy that we
might otherwise give to
self-consciousness, for example,
like we talked about a minute
ago, or to like the passing of
time and you know how?
How long has this gone, how
much longer is it going, what's
happening after this, and so on
and so on, so that some of those
sort of ways in which we tend
to operate in the world drop
away, because all of our
attention is on what we're doing
as we're doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a
mindful approach, basically yeah
, I mean I've got strong sort of
buddhist uh principles, you
know, drifting through
everything as I listen to you
and yeah well, please share them
please well, I mean this, this
sort of of like of being with.
What is this willingness to be
in the present moment, rather
than the, the learned behaviors,
beliefs, attitudes that often
we can have, which is that we
have to be kind of always on and
always alert to everything
that's around us?
Speaker 2: And always thinking
about something.
Speaker 1: Always thinking about
something, and so my background
includes 20 years in a senior
corporate job in financial
services, very head-oriented,
very much that kind of always on
, always alert.
Speaker 2: this, um, this
attitude of of being in that
environment was very much that
um, it was rewarded when you
were multitasking it oh, I know,
oh, I know I grew up in that,
in that era too, and uh, you
know, being women, we're
supposed to be expert at
multitasking, right and um, not
that men don't do it well too.
I'm sure if they're taught that
it's important and and we
definitely were in the 80s, it
was like how to be effective,
how to be efficient.
Speaker 1: Multitask as in learn
to be constantly distracting
yourself, exactly and then
there's a book actually it
springs to mind, which is called
I don't know how she does it
which I think came out maybe in
the early 2000s, I think.
So my son was born in 2001 and
I think it was kind of one of
those books that was about
here's how to be a modern woman,
to work and potentially, and
you know relationships and
family systems and you know all
of that stuff.
Really he was saying that was a
good way to be, yeah, okay yeah,
yeah, I know I love that, so
you're like really, um, yeah,
that must have been enjoyable.
Yeah, exactly, and this idea
that like that, that it's
possible to exist like that and
actually.
Speaker 2: I well, you can exist
like that, but it's about the
quality of the experience and
that's something that Mike and
just for the listener, mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi is the person,
the psychologist and the great
thinker who founded the concept
of flow.
Hungarian, born and for ease of
accessibility was known by Mike
.
So when we talk about Mike,
we're talking about Mike
Chiksomihai.
Yeah, but he would always focus
on how important the quality of
our experience is.
That was that, was you know
what was behind his researching,
flow and creativity and how to
live a good life.
Speaker 1: And it feels to me
that one of the most significant
distinctions here is operating
on the surface of things, which
is like the it's almost like the
inverse of the image of the
duck, you know, paddling
furiously under the water.
It's almost like, actually,
when we're multitasking our feet
are up.
Speaker 2: It's all up to you
Paddling furiously but probably
drowning at the same time.
Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've never, literally
never, had that, but it feels
really resonant with how
certainly how that felt to me at
that yeah yeah, no, I.
Speaker 2: I distinctly remember
like learning about
multitasking and you know
through self-help, through
reading, through media, and how
it was the way forward and how
we have so much to do.
So you better get good at
juggling multiple things at one
time.
And I just made the comment
about differences between men
and women because it was
perverted at the time, for
whatever truth lies behind it,
that women were better at it.
So let's get them to do the
multitasking.
Speaker 1: And what's the
reality?
Sue, you know with all of your
research.
What's your observation about
the effectiveness of
multitasking?
Speaker 2: Yeah, multitasking,
basically, as you would be well
aware, henny teaches us to be
distracted, and being distracted
in an ongoing way is stressful,
it's unfulfilling, it's not
enjoyable and also it's not that
productive.
And research would suggest that
, in terms of brain research,
that we don't multitask between
one or more complex tasks, we're
basically brain switching.
So we're switching focus
constantly.
So we're teaching our brains to
constantly shift focus rather
than to sustain focus and if we
don't sustain focus, we will not
find flow, as I'm sure you well
understand, because I, as I
said, I'm also curious, as we
talked about having a
conversation around flow and,
you know, hopefully the
listeners that are interested in
flow might gain something from
hearing both of our experiences
on that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I, I really
want to uh sort of give some
space actually to what you just
said about.
You know, if we're constantly
distracting, we won't create the
conditions where we can
experience flow, and my
reflection there is.
I wonder how much this almost
sort of obsession with the value
of multitasking contributed to
what we see more and more now
about the, the very, very short,
little span of attention that
we have when we pick up our
phone.
We don't even know we're doing
it.
You know, and I observe it in
myself, you know I'll be halfway
through something and find my
phone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I totally understand
and, like you know, people can't
see my room, but I have two
computer monitors, a laptop, a
microphone microphone which I
have put on silent and do not
disturb.
Have an iPad there as well.
You know it's.
It just goes on and on and on,
and and that's the world we're
increasingly living in and we're
not going to be probably moving
away from that anytime soon.
And so technology allows you
and I to talk right now, which
is amazing.
And technology is also a major
source of distraction, and I
think that's particularly
concerning for young people,
whose lives and social lives
often operate that way, often
operate that way in terms of you
know, we see a rise in reported
ADHD, people having problems
paying attention.
Well, that seems to have
coincided with this increasing
reliance on technology and the
fact that you know social media
is all about designing, you know
platforms so that you will get
a new image every few seconds
and you'll jump from one thing
to another and you'll get alerts
and notifications.
And, yeah, it's all about
distractibility, really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's, you
know, and the people who are
creating these apps and you know
, social media, that they're
really good at their job and so,
um, you know, and as humans, we
oh, it's like a little, you
know, we know it's like a little
dopamine hit, isn't it?
It's like oh, and it just, and
even just sort of, when we think
about that, it keeps us up in
this upper level and what we
we're looking to do, I think, is
drop down.
And you know, you've sort of
said about the work that I do
and for me that word flow has
been particularly resonant
around journaling and the way
that I have come to relish my
own journaling practice and the
way that I now teach others and
the book that I write, which is
In the Flow Journal your Inner.
Speaker 2: Wisdom.
Speaker 1: And for me, the
experiences are dropping,
dropping down.
It's a dropping down into my
body, um, where, rather than
journaling, um, you know, from a
kind of highly sort of
cognitive and analytical place
up in my head, I'm writing as a
stream of consciousness which
feels like it's coming from my
belly rather than you know.
So it's, and the experience is
absolutely one where time is
time, loses its context.
So I could write for a very
short amount of time or I could
write for for much longer, and
both would feel equally valid.
Um, and the normal rules of
writing don't apply as well.
So for me, like, one of the
things that I unlearned was, uh,
the rules that I've picked up
about how to write well at
school.
So when I'm learning, I don't
use paragraphs, I just.
For me, it kind of breaks the,
it breaks the flow and the
experience is very often, when I
get to the end, I don't always
reread it immediately.
In fact, very often I don't
reread it, I kind of allow the
words just to fall on the page
and shut the book.
But when I return to it, I'll
often be surprised by what's
appeared, because it feels like
it's coming from another part of
me.
Speaker 2: Okay, another place
and do you, do you, encourage
people to handwrite versus type?
Yes, I do for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then it's a
somatic practice and I think it
engages a whole lot.
I think, you know, obviously
for some people handwriting is
really unfamiliar and and even,
and then it's like, well, even
more delicious.
You know, break some of those
boundaries of the familiar and
and see how it is.
You know, it feels very
experimental and I think again,
for me that sort of sense of
flow is a yeah, so it comes back
to what we were saying before.
It's like it is what it is.
So allow it, allow this
experience to just to be, so
allow the words to fall on the
page without editing, without
judging yeah yeah, and and I've
been sort of reflecting on what
is it that really helps me
achieve a sense of flow when I'm
writing a book or when I'm
writing a podcast episode, for
example, if I'm doing a solo
episode?
Yes, and it is this sense of
like being willing to sink into
myself, because when I'm up in
my head it will not feel as
authentic as when I'm down in my
body.
Speaker 2: That's my observation
yeah, well, that makes sense to
me.
Yeah, and, like I think we both
have a particular interest in
mindfulness and um, that's
obviously a way of helping us to
connect body and mind and and
in my book I I write quite a bit
about relationships between
mindfulness and flow.
As you know, mindfulness has
been a great pathway to access
this optimal state of flow,
because we are getting out of
our head and we're focused, but
we're focused on the task and
we're letting go of these other
unhelpful things that often
accompany us when we're doing
things, particularly in the
performance setting.
So I work in performance
psychology and a lot of the
clients that I work with they're
high performing clients and you
know, being able to let go of
some of those expectations and
the self-consciousness and the
sense of performance being
evaluated and them being
evaluated and so on, so that
they can do their task more
effectively but also enjoy it,
like just taking away some of
the stress, so that people that
are high performers tend to have
gotten into that area through
some sort of love, intrinsic
motivation for that, whatever
that is, whether they're a
sports performer, a musician,
you know someone's profession,
they've got a particular
interest and they develop it.
So being able to sort of touch
into what that is when you're
you're doing your best work,
which I think is what flow helps
us to do and that I love.
Speaker 1: That point you just
made about the.
It comes back to the
self-consciousness, but also the
kind of the uh, the questioning
about um, questioning about um,
uh, almost like the kind of
performance anxiety that can
come in any in anything that
we're doing, whether we're an
elite athlete or or um.
My husband changed the taps on
on our kitchen, on our bathroom
sink, yesterday, and I think if
I just really he won't mind me
talking about this if I think
how he might have approached
that in the past, it would have
been a much more stressful
activity.
He'd have been, he'd have been
more judgmental of himself, he'd
have and therefore worried more
about whether or not he had the
skills to get it right and
therefore that kind of place um
in a critic.
You know all of that um.
He might have made, uh, certain
assumptions about his ability
to get it right and therefore,
uh, you know, almost invited in
opportunities for it to go wrong
.
Speaker 2: We can do that so
easily.
Speaker 1: Whereas this time,
what I observed was he just,
without pressing at it, he'd
worked.
He just understood what needed
to be done, trusted his own
judgment and then observed the
steps that he needed to take,
followed them, and for me, in a
way that feels like flow as well
yes, for sure yeah absolutely
okay, great yeah, because um
flow can occur I've just
mentioned, like high performers
and and and like flow can
definitely occur in those
situations.
Speaker 2: But flow can occur in
daily living tasks and and mike
wrote about that in a book
called finding flow the
psychology of Engagement with
Everyday Life, published in 1997
, and in other writings as well,
and he and people from around
the world looking at people in
different cultures as well,
different sort of ways of living
um have explored this.
This time of flow, when you get
absorbed in what you're in and
and what you referred there to
in terms of the example with
your husband was he had skills
and he trusted those skills, and
that's central to the flow
model is a relationship between
a challenging situation and your
skills and your, in particular,
your perception of your skills.
So when you've got that balance
right so you're challenging
yourself but you bring an
appropriate skill set and you
trust that skill set, then you
can focus on the task.
So I think that's a really
great way if people want to
understand flow, to recognize
that's actually the operational
definition of flow that Mike
often used was it's a
challenging activity that you
bring a skill set to and that,
like the relationship, is such
that the challenges are just
slightly, slightly above the
skills oh, I absolutely love
that because I think there can
be.
Speaker 1: I think it, if one is
not, um, really really curious
about this state or hasn't
necessarily noticed it in
oneself, it can be easy to
dismiss a concept like flow,
yeah, and as being like too
passive or a bit too woolly, I
don't know, a bit like if
something isn't hard, it doesn't
have value.
There can be that sort of
concept.
Whereas I love what you just
said about it's this idea that
we're just, we're just um
pushing ourselves enough, but
not so much that, yes, flip into
anxiety and that's the between
anxiety thing that's it.
Speaker 2: that's the bit bit
about Beyond Boredom and Anxiety
.
And that's what intrigued me
was, when I saw the title of
that book on a university
bookshelf when I was researching
my master's at the time, I was
like, well, what lies beyond
boredom and anxiety?
And it just like took my
interest, you know.
And so boredom sets in if our
skills outweigh the challenges
and we don't have new challenges
to keep us interested.
On the other hand, what we tend
to experience perhaps more of
but I guess everyone's situation
is different is that we have
challenges and we don't
necessarily trust ourselves, we
don't trust our skills, and so,
instead of being focused, we're
anxious about is this good
enough, am I good enough?
And you know that just gets us
into our heads and once we're
there, we're no longer engaged
in what we're doing.
Speaker 1: are we so Honestly,
so I've've shared this, this
story I'm about to share with
you with others, really
understood, but I sense that you
will absolutely get it and
actually it's making sense for
me now.
So a few years ago, we went
skiing and I'd never skied
before, or maybe like a tiny
little bit, but not really and
everybody else was reasonably
competent.
So they went off and I had some
lessons and I was absolutely
fine with the instructor and
they basically said look you're,
you're great, you know you're
good enough, like you could go.
I've been there, done that,
yeah, been there.
So I head up on the butt lift
on the ski slope and I just
thought, okay, I'm going to get
off at the first stop and I'm
just going to redo this run a
few times.
I've done with the instructor.
I get off, I stand at the top.
I'm just going to redo this run
a few times.
I've done with the instructor.
I get off, I stand at the top,
I'm feeling okay and I start
going down and I get lower and
lower and lower to the ground
because I'm more and more
terrified, which means I get
faster and faster.
My skis are up, you're a bomb.
I have literally no idea how
I'm going to stop when I get to
the bottom by falling over, and
I thought, okay, I can do this,
I can do this.
I go back up, I do it again, I
get to the bottom.
Pretty much the same thing
happens.
I take my skis off, I go back
in the lift down to the village
at the bottom of the mountain.
I take it all back to the shop
and the guy said are you sure
you've only just hired it?
And I said, absolutely.
I found skiing to be a weird
combination of boredom and
terror.
And Tara, that's so funny.
Speaker 2: I can just picture
you becoming a bit of a
cannonball as you got lower and
lower to the snow.
Speaker 1: I was so fast.
I'm a bit like that on a water
slide as well, sue.
I just get terrified.
I'm becoming like a bobsleigh
team, but anyway.
Speaker 2: I would have hoped
the ski instructor might have
told you about turning your skis
and staying a little bit more.
Speaker 1: He totally told me I
knew it all.
But what had happened was the
anxiety overcame.
But how I translated it was
boredom okay, right, it's like
get out of this totally, yeah,
yeah and I, and I think so.
For me, it was like the
antithesis of flow, whereas I
know so many people who see
skiing as being like the epitome
of flow.
Speaker 2: Oh, totally yeah.
So have you been back and skied
again?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: No, and I won't.
I mean, I'm pretty sure it
won't happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it might
not be skiing's your thing, but
definitely sports like skiing
and surfing would be another one
.
Um climbing, rock climbing and
so on like they are
environmentally challenging and
you do need quite a high level
of skills to to approach it.
But you also need trust, like
so you need the knowledge, you
need the skills, but you need to
trust that you can make that
turn and and you can turn, point
your skis uphill and you'll
slow down and so on.
But, like in those moments of
terror, like we don't think that
way at all and I think that's
that's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1: the?
The bit that was missing was my
trust in myself, yeah, and and
so when I and I understand from
my own like deep work that I've
done on myself, the, you know,
lack of trust in my like
physical capability,
particularly then different now,
actually, it would be
interesting to see what it okay
ski now, but maybe you might
want to go back and try it again
.
Speaker 2: Maybe I do now he's a
shorter these days it's
actually easier to ski.
That's something that, um, I
think, um, someone was pretty
clever about making skis shorter
from like.
I used to ski quite a bit in
the 80s and you know the idea
was you'd get longer and longer
skis because then you could go
faster and turn quicker and so
on and so on.
And that was fine if you're
going to be a ski racer, but if
you're just a recreational skier
and now it's gone the other way
, like where skis are short and
so it's quite easy to turn those
skis, Very good.
Speaker 1: I now feel like I'm
having a session with sports
psychologist dr and not a ski
instructor.
Speaker 2: They don't.
Don't take on board too much.
If there's ski instructors out
there, they might be saying what
is she talking about?
I?
Speaker 1: mean you mentioned
earlier about you.
Um, when you came across mike's
book, you recognized that you
had experienced the state.
Speaker 2: That's it, yeah you'd
share that story.
Yeah, well, so, in beyond
boredom and anxiety, mike um
shares interviews he did with
people in quite different
contexts, including some
athletes musicians, chess
players and surgeons and so
there's a chapter, like devoted
to these different settings and
this consistency of when one was
totally focused on whatever
one's activity, was a chess
player or a surgeon, during a
procedure.
There was these similarities of
characteristics that then Mike
developed into what are known as
the nine dimensions of flow,
which are outlined in my book
and in Mike's writings and um
and so for me, like having
having grown up an athlete and
just loved sport all my life,
you know I knew those times but
I just thought it was random.
Good luck if it had happened.
You know that everything seemed
to come together.
It was much more effortless
than what it normally was, and I
tended to perform at a higher
level, and I was just like and I
tended to perform at a higher
level and I was just like
remember those times as being,
you know, really enjoyable times
, but I didn't know that I had
anything to do with whether I
achieved it or not.
You know.
You know, reason, as I said, for
writing this book is so that
people understand just how
important the flow concept is,
because there are ways.
If we understand flow, then we
can find ways psychological
strategies, for example to make
it more likely that we can
experience it.
So it doesn't have to be well,
that was a randomly good day or
a randomly bad day, like that.
We can, and that's, I guess,
what performance psychology or
sports psychology initially the
area that I was working in is
all about.
It's about teaching individuals
and groups that we can all
improve our psychological skill
set that we bring to the tasks
that we engage in, that we
choose to take part in.
We can all improve in that area
, no matter where we're at.
And even the athletes at the
very top of their sport, they
often they might even be
presenting themselves as being
full of confidence and often are
but they also are sometimes
doubting themselves, but trying
as best as they can to hide that
.
Because, you know, as the skill
level increases, the challenge
increases.
So there's always that sense of
uncertainty, that sense of
doubt that can creep in.
And so it's learning how to
stay focused, how to notice when
attention has wandered and
bring it back, which, as we
would both agree, mindfulness,
meditation is the excellent way
to learn how to do that better
and basically to notice if our
attention is on task or not,
because we develop the
self-awareness through the
mindfulness practice that we
might not have had prior to
actually recognize that we're
just caught up in all of these
thoughts about what happened and
the injustice of it or what
might happen and how terrible
that would be, and you know, we
can go through life that way.
Speaker 1: I think there's
something about this how to
recognize when we're drifting,
when our attention is drifting
off the task.
And something that I've, you
know for me is, you know, it's
really important.
When I learned this and that I
will sort of teach others as a,
so I also teach sort of
mindfulness practices as well is
that meditation is not about
the empty mind and the perfect,
you know, place of, uh, you know
nirvana, it's about the moment
where you go.
Oh, yes that's the, that's
really what we're looking for,
and I think that's that feels
really right really, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: It's such a
misconception about meditation
that I think, with the growth of
mindfulness and and its
recognition as being a very
valuable skill, is hopefully
being quashed this idea that, oh
you, it's about getting an
empty mind and then what might
be put into that empty mind.
You know, it's just like, yeah,
it's, it's not what it is at
all like.
You know, the more you meditate
, the more you notice how much
your mind wanders and that you
have to work hard to to bring it
back.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I
find, anyway, like for myself
absolutely, and that and that
it's okay, it's very it's okay.
Yeah, and the the gift that the
joy is is in noticing it and
and still loving yourself.
Through that, I kind of feel
that.
You know, you'll have seen, I
think that all of my work is is
about this grounding in
self-compassion.
Yes, I have.
Yeah, you know that.
As uh Richard Back said, you
know we teach what we most need
to learn.
You know that my recognition
that for a lot of my life
self-compassion was pretty
absent and that for me that is
also part of flow so when I
notice that I am drifting, I
notice I've picked up my phone,
hopped through something.
Rather than beat myself up about
it in the moment of noticing
actually say, oh okay, I've
noticed, I'll put it down.
Or I've noticed and I'll carry
on, and both of those are
equally okay, because I'm making
an active choice, um, in that
moment, and then make a choice
to return to whatever the task
is but that makes good sense,
yeah and so I think.
So that's, I think that feels
very resonant with me.
And then the other thing I just
wanted to ask you is um.
So I noticed that there are,
when I create certain conditions
around me, flow feels more
accept, uh, not acceptable more,
um, accessible.
And what are those conditions?
So one would be music okay so a
technique that I use a lot is
I'll find a piece of music on
insight timer.
Speaker 2: You know the
meditation app yeah, I, I also
use and I'm on it yeah you're on
it, okay, oh, I'm gonna come
and find you.
Speaker 1: Um, so I will find a
piece of music that is the
length of time that I want to
focus on the task and I will
play that piece of music and I
find through, almost like a
Pavlovian response, I drop in,
okay, and I can pay attention to
that one thing, and I just
wonder whether there are,
whether that's something you've
come across, or if there are
other sort of lovely sort of
techniques or tools that
experiment with yeah, well,
definitely there.
Speaker 2: There is some
research on music and flow and
how it can be enhancing of flow.
But what also you were
describing there is one of the
preconditions of flow, which is
having clear goals.
So, like, you set a time that
you want to practice for, and so
you don't have to then be
thinking about how much time is
passing because you're getting
immediate feedback, which is
another precondition to flow
about.
Yes, this is what I'm doing
right now, this is what I chose
to do, and so on.
And then the challenge skill
balance.
So that's the third
precondition.
So the third precondition,
again, the challenge skill
balance.
Challenge skill.
Okay, yeah, so like what we
talked about with the challenge
skill balance.
Well, it's actually the first
first precondition, but then
clear goals and then the
unambiguous feedback, or the
immediate feedback that you're
getting.
Um, so yeah, music.
Music is definitely, um, a cue
for many people and you know,
choosing the music, that is the
one that you're going to
resonate with.
But what you were describing to
me was about having a clear
goal in that activity that you
wanted to engage in, and then
you're receiving that feedback
while the music's playing so I
loved this in in your book.
Speaker 1: I loved the way that
you talked about goals in the
book, because for me, um, I shy
away.
So as a so I'm, you know, on
the, the coaching end of of the
spectrum.
Um, and often in coaching, what
is the primary concern is like
what's your goal now?
I often find that goals can be
double-edged swords and I tend
not to talk about them and I'll
say, like what's the outcome
you'd like to move toward, or
how do you want to be feeling at
the end of this?
Now, that is a goal, but it's a
slight, it's a softer edged
thing, and also it opens up the
opportunity that it might change
as you move toward it.
Speaker 2: And that's yeah,
that's goals in flow.
It's not about, like, these
specific outcomes.
It's about, as Mike described
it, it's about knowing, moment
by moment, what it is that you
want to be doing, that you've
chosen to be doing, and then the
feedback is letting you know.
Okay, so this my goal is to be
meditating and allowing the
music to help me to get into
that space, and so I'm getting
feedback about that because I'm
listening to the music, so my
sense of hearing and so on is
attuned to the music and what
other senses you might be paying
attention to during that
practice, and so and so, yeah,
it's not about setting a goal
that you work towards and is
inflexible and never changes,
and if you don't meet the goal,
it's a failure.
Like that's, that's not it.
I mean, that's not effective
goal setting in any sense.
But, like, in relation to flow,
it's about more a moment by
moment knowing what it is that's
important for you.
I think what I read in the book
was something like that.
It's about more a moment by
moment knowing what it is that's
important for you.
Speaker 1: I think what I read
in the book was something like
that it's the, the goal of the
purpose of the process.
Like that, the yes I think I
might even have made a yeah you
said not about outcomes, but
about process and purpose, and
that really resonated because it
just felt like a much more
adult way of seeing the task in
hand, rather than, like you, say
something that has a kind of
binary outcome you either, you
either achieved and you did or
you didn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I
definitely process goals are the
way to go and you know, various
psychology researchers have
written about that in terms of
growth mindset or mastery
orientation, so being focused on
the process versus the outcome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the
destination, it's the glory of
the ride that's a nice one.
Speaker 2: The glory, the glory
of the ride, the glory of your
ride down the ski soap yeah,
exactly, or maybe one day too.
Speaker 1: Maybe you might have
inspired a little, a little, uh,
neural shift in my head.
I um, one of the things sort of
we kind of draw to a close.
I knew this was going to happen
.
I could, I mean, this is flow,
isn't it?
we could sense about this for a
long time whenever, whenever you
want to talk, it's fine, like
I'm good okay, well, you know,
um, maybe we come back to to
this topic again one day, um,
maybe, maybe so, but I, I really
wanted to just pay some some
tender attention to the way that
you talk about, mike and the
influence that he's had on you
just felt really important that
he is honored in this
conversation.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Well, that's why I wrote the
book to honor his work and him
as a person, like he was, as his
students and there's examples
of things that some of his
students have written in the
book.
You know he was the best
example of what he worked in and
what he wrote about and um and
so, yeah, like I just highly
encourage anyone that's at all
sparked the interest in flow to
um, look up chicks at me high,
it's very phonetic but difficult
to spell um and or just look up
flow and um to read, read some
of mike's works because, um,
yeah, there's there's certainly
a lot of really wise and and
wonderful thinking in there.
Um and yeah.
So my book is um having I
co-authored a book with mike in
1999, flow in Sports, with a
shared interest of flow in the
sporting area for both of us,
and that was what my PhD was on,
and he was one of the mentors
to my work at that time and yeah
, so that was designed towards
performance, and this book is
more about the flow experience
and why the flow experience
matters and, according to what
Mike taught me about why it
matters, which is equally if not
more about the quality of
experience as it is about a
performance outcome.
So I distinctly remember reading
that in his writings quite a
bit.
He was concerned about how to
help people live the best life
they could, having come through
war as a child and experienced
the horrors of war in Europe and
was very motivated to find ways
for people to be able to live a
life where quality of
experience mattered and that
recognising that you can do
something about what your
quality of experience is, even
in times of adversity.
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing is
even in times of adversity,
amazing, amazing.
I mean honestly, there's so
much um, uh, there's so much
meaning in in the way they speak
about him and and I can hear
you know how inspiring he was
for you and I'm everyone that he
taught and and worked with, so
yeah, yeah that's so much for
sharing that, sue.
And yeah, no, thank you, I, um,
I will, I will share, obviously.
I'll share a link to to your
book, um, in the notes, just so
everyone knows that they can.
Um, come and have a look at at
your work.
And also I'll share mike's name
uh, fully spelled, great idea.
I love that phonetically it's
chick sent me high, I mean, just
you know what a gorgeous name.
Um, and and there's, there's
one last question that I'd like
to ask you, which is something
that I ask all of my clients
actually before we start working
together, and something I like
to ask my guests.
So, if you saw this time in
your own life right now as a
chapter in your book of life,
what would your chapter heading
be?
What would the chapter, what
was the question?
If you saw this time in your
life as a chapter in your book
of life?
what would the chapter heading
be oh the chapter heading.
Speaker 2: Wow, I think,
revisiting what matters.
Speaker 1: That's nice.
Can you say what the subheading
might be underneath that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I spent
many years in academia because I
enjoyed research and writing
and I wanted to do that in the
area of flow, but I didn't
actually find it a very
rewarding experience a lot of
the time I mean not all of the
time, but not a lot of the time.
And so then when I shifted into
why I initially studied sports
psychology, which was to work
with performers and to try to
help people maximize their
optimal mindset, optimize their
experience, enjoy what they're
doing more, be less stressed
about it, like I guess that's
what I've come full circle
towards doing at this later
stage of my career and, um, and
I'm glad that I did, and I'm
glad that I got back to writing
because I always have loved
reading like I talked about
being an athlete and finding
flow in sport, but also as a
young person in reading and
reading fiction that like I'd
read a book and finish it and
then I'd start it again and I'd
just like get totally absorbed
in yeah, so like Watership Down,
for example, like I had to
sticky, tap the front and back
cover because it was like just
kept getting turned so many
times, yeah, and then that would
lead me to like tap into
imagination and creativity.
You know a book like Watership
Down, for example, and so I see
myself in the story and so on.
And so I see myself in the
story and so on, and yeah, so
like, and that's like you're
getting totally absorbed in what
you're doing.
Yeah, and then I could find
that sometimes in writing, but
only if I was writing something
that I really cared about and I
guess flow, something that I've
always cared about since I
learnt about it.
And so writing this book has
been many years in the making,
um, as a thought, um, but you
know, finding time to do it, and
then deciding, yeah, it matters
enough that I'm going to do it,
and, and I'm glad, I'm glad
that I did make the time to do
so yeah, me too.
Speaker 1: me too, because it's
led to the conversation and that
for me is you know part of
watching the flow of flow.
You know where it sort of takes
us to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and I'll have to get hold
of your journal and try that,
because I've always liked
writing, including journaling,
and so, yeah, I'd like to
experiment with that as well
well, a little um, a little bit
of sort of insight.
Speaker 1: Personal insight for
me is that when the book was
published, obviously I'd written
the book and I used um
journaling prompts that I have
used in the past.
I, you know, was very mindful
about which ones to include.
And then, when, when I got the
book, uh, for the first time
from the publisher, I chose to
sit down and read it and really
read it, fully engaged, and then
I started using the journaling
prompts and I found it was so,
it was so beautiful, because it
brought me into a deep place,
even though it's something that
cognitively, I'm already very
aware of, and so I think that it
was almost like a kind of
reinforcement for me of, like, I
mean, this practice.
It really is, the name is right
, it really is flow journaling.
So, yeah, I'd love gosh, I mean
I'd love to, I'd love to hear
from you like how that is.
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.
I also just want to reflect
really really quickly on what
you just said about reading.
So I, distinctly, as a child,
sitting on a windowsill in my
bedroom, I mean for hours and
hours and hours reading, and my
dad getting very cross about it
because he couldn't see the
value because I wasn't doing,
and I can imagine also that,
like doing as in, like valid,
doing from his perspective, and
whereas my mom saying, no, this
is so, this is such a wonderful
thing, she's lost in the story.
You know what an amazing place
to be and I and just listening
to you there it was like gosh.
Yeah, these two, these two ways
of valuing this state of flow
or not valuing this state.
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, yeah, and
being is exactly right, like
what you were sharing, about
what your mum was saying.
You know about your being and
your learning to be engaged
versus having to be doing
something all the time.
Yeah, engaged versus having to
be doing something all the time.
Yeah and yeah.
So, yeah, we both seem to have
enjoyed that experience of
getting fully immersed in
reading and and I think that's
another thing that, like
academic life, I ended up always
reading nonfiction, which was
was, you know, interesting and
useful, but not engaging, and
and it's like when I get back to
reading fiction that I'm like,
yeah, I can actually this, I can
get immersed in and that it's
okay.
Speaker 1: It's okay, yeah, lost
in immersed.
I mean lost, lost has got
connotations, but immersed, yeah
, in the story or in the task.
It's a wonderful thing so yeah,
yeah, yeah brilliant, brilliant
.
So, honestly, I have just
absolutely loved this
conversation and it's um
likewise.
Speaker 2: I have too.
They've lifted my day, the end
of my day, but, um, that's been
really enjoyable to obviously
share across the world here.
Um, you know a shared love for
this experience and and like why
it matters.
So I appreciate the opportunity
to share with your listeners
about why I think it matters and
I hope that you know they will
also be interested to learn more
themselves.
And most of the time I find,
whenever I'm talking about flow,
like with what you're doing,
and dropping away
self-consciousness and not
worrying about failure and
success but just being totally
process oriented, like people
can connect with that, like the
experience, and so what Mike has
given us is a language around
that and a way of understanding
that, a framework for
understanding that and how.
In my book it's meant to be a
practical book.
It's meant to be about, well,
what have I learned through
working as a psychologist and
also through my research.
I'm not trying to like be
overly critical of research it's
really important but what I've
learned about how we might be
able to access it and my stories
and other people's stories in
the book as well.
Speaker 1: Wonderful.
Yeah Well, I hope, like you say
, that it's opened up a window
or a pathway for people to think
oh, actually, it's okay to feel
this feeling as well, because I
think yeah it's not just okay,
it matters, it really matters,
it really matters and that
validation of that feels really
important.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Yeah, well, thank you very much
.
It really matters and that
validation of that feels really
important.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah, well,
thank you very much.
Been lovely to speak with you
honey, yeah, really lovely.
Speaker 1: So there's a moment
at the end of a recording with
the guest where I pause and then
we carry on chatting for a bit
and then I think, oh, I so wish
I'd recorded that because so
much more richness um has, you
know, unfolds and um, yeah, I
really, I really loved that
conversation with Sue.
I think these are the, you know
, my favorite kind of guest
conversations when they're
far-reaching and wide-ranging
and personal as well, and I
really hope that listening to
her has sparked your own
curiosity.
And, you know, her book is very
accessible and really clearly
lays out these nine dimensions
that she touched on, um, the
nine dimensions that that mike
um identified and um, and I just
think that there's something
really powerful about what she
was saying that flow is an
absolutely necessary state.
Often we can disregard the
importance of flow in favour of
some of these old patterns of
thinking, these old stories, old
ways of thinking about what
success looks like or what being
goal-driven looks like, or what
hard work looks like.
Looks like or what hard work
looks like, and actually
inviting in this experience of
flow may be something that
really helps you or others that
you know, shift some of those
limiting thoughts, beliefs and
maybe enables you to find your
own way of accessing what really
gives you, um, that space where
time and effort cease to exist.
So, um, and also, you know, of
course, it may be that so much
of what we've said has like
really like resonated with you
and you've gone.
Oh, yeah, I get that.
That's how I feel when I dot,
dot, dot, fill in the gaps, um,
so if that's the case, do come
back to me, do let me know what,
what you've noticed, um, about
this experience of flow for
yourself.
I would love to hear, um, and
yeah, is there anything else I
want to say?
Oh, just one last thing, which
is, if you don't already get the
emails about these podcast
episodes, if you haven't yet
signed up to my mailing list,
then please do.
The podcast now runs every
fortnight and you may have
listened to last the episode
whenever it was.
I don't know when this one's
going live, so I'm not sure what
the difference is, how many
weeks it's been, but you might
have listened to the episode
where I shared about the reason
for sending the podcast live
every fortnight rather than
every week, and it was a way of
breaking some of my own
unwritten rules every other week
from the podcast I am now
sharing a written reflection,
and the emails come out on a
Sunday and there's something
there to spark maybe your own
curiosity, your own reflections,
your own observations, and I
write them.
I understand actually even more
now from having spoken with Sue.
I write them from a state of
flow myself.
It always feels really
important that when I'm
communicating with you, that I
write deep down in my belly, in
that place of compassionate
wisdom, and you know, and
hopefully that comes across in
the words that I share.
And as with everything I would
always love, you know, I relish,
I cherish your reflections, I
love it when people write to me
and I will always respond.
So do join the the mailing list
.
If you'd like to receive that,
just go on to the website
hennyflynncouk, um and let me
know um, and I'll also.
There's a link in the um in the
notes.
I feel like I'm rambling now I
I'm going to go, I've got
distracted, I'm out of flow.
Oh, sue, so much wisdom we have
gathered from this conversation
, so much knowledge.
All right, my darlings, I send
you a hug and a wave, thank you.