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Travis Bader, host of The Silvercore Podcast, discusses matters related to hunting, firearms, hiking, outdoor adventure, success, health and more with the people and businesses that comprise the community all from a uniquely Canadian perspective.
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So without further ado, let's
get on with this podcast.
You may remember today's guest from
Silver Corps Podcast, episode one 17.
He spent three weeks in a German hospital
after an IED explosion in Afghanistan,
recovering from no fewer than 47 broken
bones, including a massive skull fracture.
Since then, he's helped countless
others overcome personal trauma and
PTSD by sharing his story today.
He's the trusted presence behind Breta
Defense Technologies as a manager in the
defense and law enforcement division.
Welcome back to the Silver
Core Podcast, David McDonald.
Hey Travis, for having me again.
Uh, yeah, it's just, it's uh,
great to be back, honestly.
Uh.
Thank you for inviting me.
As I said, I've been kind of,
uh, been following, uh, you since
I left from my last podcast.
You've had an amazing series of
guests, so honestly, I feel a little
inadequate being here today, but, uh,
uh, let's, I'm excited to get back.
Let's do this again.
Hey,
you're one of those amazing
guests that's for, for sure.
Appreciate
that.
So
what is it that brought you over here?
So, uh, so we're in, uh, b
BC this week, or like that.
There's the, uh, Canadian
Association of Chief of Police,
uh, conference and Trade show.
Uh, it happens every year in August.
It actually, it rotates
throughout the country.
So last year was in Halifax,
and then they circle back and
they do it in va uh, Victoria.
So I've spent the last, uh,
three days out on the island.
Yeah.
Uh, just, uh, doing the trade show,
meeting with the chiefs, the deputies.
Uh, there's some, you know,
the superintendents, uh, uh,
promoting the brand defense brand.
Yep.
Uh, which we'll get to
in a second like that.
But, uh, 'cause last time I was here
we were talking about Stoger Canada.
This is, uh, now there's a whole new
branding we, you know, we can talk about.
But, uh, just, and, and then
came in today, took the ferry
over this morning like that.
Then now I'm in Vancouver.
I'm here to meet with some of my existing,
uh, clients, if you wanna call it that.
So, Vancouver Police, uh, new Mess,
Winster Surrey Police, and just, uh,
kind of get some face time with them.
Yeah, that's good to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, so.
I had brand new branding with
Beretta Defense Technologies.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, what, what was
the move behind there?
Probably some confusion when
people are think thinking like
Stoger, how does this fit into
things?
Yeah.
So, uh, so I, so it's kind of twofold.
So first of all, at the international
side level of it, uh, bread of
Defense Technologies has been a, a
brand for a little while, but it's
not really been all that recognized.
So a co in the last year, uh, Breta
kind of branched off the DEF defense
military law enforcement side of the
business into a whole own legal entity.
Uh, and now we, every company
that had a defense or law
enforcement, uh, business sector.
Yeah, we've all been required
that you, now, now you're gonna be
renaming and rebranding under the
brand defense technologies' name.
So in the last year we've been,
uh, really hard at work separating
Stoger Canada from Brand Defense
Technologies, Canada, everyth like that.
So, uh, brand new booth, uh, brand
new, uh, well brand new patches.
Brand new brand, well
branding across the board.
Yeah.
Uh, we are in the process of actually, uh,
legal making it a legal entity in Canada.
Okay.
Under, under that, under that name.
Yeah.
And, uh, my email just, uh, this past
week changed from Stoger Canada to
Debra Defense Technologies Canada.
So gotta find a new place to
send
all these memes to you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, so.
Breta.
Interesting.
What 500 years coming up Next year will
be the 500th anniversary, so they're one
of, if I'm not mistaken, three, maybe like
I did a little bit of research before,
I should probably just plug it into ai.
But there's like three family run
businesses that have been around
for that length of time or longer.
Some, some crazy small number.
Oh yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I think
you can count on one hand how many
actually are still that, and then I
think we're on our 15th generation.
It's still run by the Saxon family.
Uh, they're, they are, uh, they're,
the next generation is getting ready,
uh, to come up and start taking
some more interest in the business.
So, uh, and they're
still heavily involved.
Uh, I'll be at a show next month Yeah.
Out in the London uk.
And typically the one, the brothers
just will show up like that.
And, uh, and y you, you would, you
think they'd be coming in, in like
an entourage, but he just randomly
shows up in like, just either a suit
or even just jeans and a dress shirt
and next thing you know, you're
talking to Franco or Pietro and you're
like, oh, oh, how are you doing, sir?
Not, not surrounded by
security.
No, not at all.
No, they're, they're, but, uh, uh,
it's, uh, just incredible that we, we
working for still such, it's one of
the things that I would say gives us
a bit of advantage in the industry.
We're not owned by a shareholding group or
a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, you know, a
credit, uh, you know, group of companies.
We're we, we we're still owned
by a family, owned by brother.
Led, uh, company that, uh, we answer to
ultimately to the, to two to two people.
Um, and so it's, it's, it's just that,
it's really, it's really an interesting
company to work for in that regard,
considering we, you know, if you
really ever have an issue with like
that, it's, it's a real streamlined
process to order to get an answer.
No.
Yeah.
You know, I've worked with some family
businesses in the past and I've seen
some really good benefits to that, but
I've also seen the, the difficult side
of the family business and for a family
business to be around for 500 years.
Yeah.
Like, holy crow, those Italians know
something about family, that's for sure.
Right?
That's
for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, uh, it's almost they're bred into
it at this point or like that, but Yeah.
Um, and you know, Andretta mean,
we, we, we call it Breada everyone.
A lot of people know the company,
obviously the manufacturer of
Beretta, but the holdings group.
Hope it just contains so much
more, uh, within the group.
And like that a lot of
people don't rec realize.
So,
okay.
So let's break it down.
'cause I don't even think I know
all the things that happens within
the, in the full holding group.
I know that they're a large company.
I know that they've got their fingers
in a bunch of different, uh, pies.
What, what's their
totality?
Uh, so, you know, a lot of people
are surprised to learn that, uh,
Beretta, uh, uh, owns Benelli
competitors in the market.
Yeah.
You know, uh, just as an established and,
uh, you know, the leg like legacy company
within fi with the farms community.
Yeah.
Uh, but they're, they're we're
all sister companies together.
So they're sister companies.
Um, you go, they're, they're not that far.
They're in two different
valleys within Italy.
You go down to the us they're literally,
the offices are next to each other, uh,
down in, uh, side in Washington, DC Yeah.
Uh, we also, they own, uh, probably two.
What?
Well, two of the probably
Great, you know, best.
Bolt action precision rifle companies in
the world, they own Sacco, Antica, Uhhuh.
Uh, and in that, you know, you can't
have a, you know, a, a precision rifle
company without an optics company.
So they also own Steiner.
Mm-hmm.
And bur the, you know, uh, so you got
both the precision, the high end real of
super precision military and precision
hunting scopes, and you got, you know,
burst, which is excellent scopes in their
own rights, everyth like that within the
tactical and the, the hunting community.
Yeah.
Uh, and the most recent acquisition,
uh, I'm not even touching on all of
them or like that, but the most recent
acquisition was in the last end of 2023.
Uh, just after, actually
I was last year like that.
Yeah.
Uh, Breta purchased the RUAG group, so
five of the world's largest ammunition
manufacturers, which closed that gap
on Holy Crow, on what we can provide.
So really, we all, we are
a full service provider.
Yeah.
And, um, where does, you know, brand
defense technologies or Stoger Canada,
which is the commercial side come
into play, is that we are owned.
We're not, you know, we don't have
to, we don't, we're not a, um, a
partnership agreement with Breta where
we're under a contractual agreement,
which can, you know, you know, end or
be, uh, or be terminated or like that.
Breta purchased our company years
ago, back in the early two thousands.
So, um, we are owned directly.
We actually represent, we are
essentially the factory of all
those companies within Canada.
So I've told, I've told, you know, some
of the services, I'm gonna meet with a
couple of them tomorrow and like that.
And it's, um.
If they have an issue or
they want something or they
need, you know, a detail.
Just today I was talking with a
service, uh, needed a detail on
one of the tikas rifles they had.
Mm.
And uh, it was more of a technical
question involving, you know, what
kind of, you know, powder on the round
they should be using or like that.
Yeah.
And the bench I have is, it's not
me, you know, sending an email
through a, you know, a direct list
of chain of middlemen or like that.
It's literally just calling the,
you know, the production manager
over at Teka or, and saying, Hey,
I, you know, I have this question.
And he gets back to me within,
you know, based on his own
timeframe and the time zones.
'cause we're dealing with Finland
here, which is, you know, a
couple hours ahead of us hours.
Yeah.
But, uh, based on that, he can
usually get an answer within a day.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
So, yeah, I went over, I, so I
was in Finland, went over to, uh,
the factory there, and I saw their
operations and I was, I was blown away.
Blown away by a few things.
So the Finnish culture is,
uh, a little different than
what we're used to over here.
A little
bit.
Yeah.
A little bit.
Similarities in, in their own right.
Which is interesting like that there's,
there's, it's almost like it's, yeah.
Well, you'll tell a joke and they'll just
look at you and then later on they'll
say, that was a really funny joke.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, they do do that.
Um, but I find that the culture of
kind of, you know, obviously they're
really big on their saunas and, but
they're really big on being in nature.
Yeah.
Uh, but I, I literally heard last
time I was over there, we were, uh.
We were jump, we were going into
this lake or like that, and they
warned me ahead of time, Hey,
it's not so bad once you get in.
And I'm like, that, no,
that's our saying, man.
That's, that's a, so a bunch
of Americans were with us and
they're like, what does that mean?
I'm, I'm like, well,
you're about to find out.
Yeah.
You know, everyone looks at jumping
in a lake as being a terrible thing.
Oh, it's gonna be so cold.
I don't know if it's freezing outside and
the top is frozen, you know, the water
underneath is actually gonna be warmer.
Yeah.
Than, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, uh, yeah, the, the cul
factory is, is incredible.
Now, uh, did they, did you get to see the,
the meeting room upstairs, Uhhuh where
the all all the, the history of the guns?
Yeah, that was great.
So that was recently
redone, they said Yes.
Yeah.
So that, and that was like part
of their original, um, yeah.
So they had all, all their
old guns, their whole museum.
Um, we got the, the full tour of
it and the, the history of it and,
uh, learned about the different,
uh, models that they're making.
Actually one of the guys there, um, Mika.
Was it Mika?
It's
probably Mika.
That's it.
Yeah.
It's usually either Mika USO or
Mika Tuka, or, yeah, that's, so
it's, it's very, very, very standard
finished names, but yeah, Mika, uh,
m Mika, yeah.
Was Oh, so Mika, or Mika?
Mika given the, uh, given us a tour
around and, uh, he was showing, like,
I guess when he was in university, he
approached 'em and he says, you know,
I've got some design ideas and I got
some, uh, things that can make it better.
And I said, okay, come on in.
Show us what you mean.
Yeah.
And then a lot of the new things
that are coming out are things
that, that he brought into fruition.
Some of their top sellers actually.
But yeah, that was, that was a neat place.
Uh, the history behind
everything was neat.
I went in, I wanted to take some pictures,
I wanted to do some video, and, um, they
said, Nope, no, we don't want any of that.
Yeah.
Oh.
Okay.
Well like what?
You know, like I'd, I'd love to
show people what you're doing.
No, no.
Just come on in.
This is cool.
We, we want you to come in.
The hospitality was crazy.
Yeah.
I guess that's what I'm getting
at.
Yeah.
Uh, it and don't and so you
don't Yeah, don't feel bad.
I'm not allowed to take
photos there either.
And I work for 'em directly like that.
So it's like, so don't, don't,
don't feel bad there at all.
Uh, yeah.
If there's a strictly no for, you know,
photography rule in a lot of places.
'cause they want you to actually come
in and actually witness with your
own eyes not stuck behind a camera.
And you get like, kind of
almost a disconnect there.
They want you to see the craftsmanship and
the skill they're putting into their pro.
Like, uh, a lot of people
don't realize like their, their
ammunition of their factory.
Mm-hmm.
Every cartridge is inspected a hundred
percent before it leaves a factory.
My average check rates are, you know,
less than 10% on most ammunition.
Lots.
They check a hundred percent every
single one to make sure it is.
You know, meets the standards or
like that every barrel from the SA
factory is inspected by a person
before it gets installed on a gun.
That was one of the things
that I thought was interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Because you look at the crazy machinery
they have for automation, for precision,
CNC, and then you get down to the
human inspection part and they say,
you know, we put 'em through the
machines, but you still can't beat
the human eye for being able to spot
some of the, uh, variances, like if
you're barrel bending or straightening
or whatever you're gonna be doing.
And I don't, I don't really
understand how that is.
I don't understand how we can have
AI and space age machinery yet.
We still can't match the precision
of what a human can be able to.
Yeah.
I I, I don't, I don't know either.
I mean, and a lot of the machinery in that
shop is actually still relatively new.
Yeah.
Uh, a lot, some of it, up until 10
years ago, those, those rifles were
still made essentially by hand.
Yeah.
Um.
Production and demand has grown
to the point where they needed
to bring some machinery in
Uhhuh.
But, uh, I was just, I was having another
email this morning with one of actually,
uh, a Montreal, uh, service member.
So one of the things that we have to
keep on, we're always stressing on the
guise, is that, uh, when you're, when
you're buy a sack or you're buying a tika,
the barrel is not like another rifle.
Mm. The cold thing.
They've, they've figured out a way,
some sort of magic how to do it.
They're cold heel for
they're cold hammer forged.
Yeah.
And so at today they, the, the guy contact
me saying, I put 3000 rounds to the gun.
I've been told this is, now it's
time to change the barrel uhuh.
So how do I do that?
And I'm like, uh, your barrel light's
not even at the halfway point yet.
Mm. But it's, uh, I, I've
personally tested, uh, a SCO TRG.
Yep.
And we had 30,000 rounds of
3 0 8 through that barrel.
And it was still shooting just fine.
It's to the point now actually
Sacco no longer does, they no longer
bother doing round counts anymore.
Really,
they ran out of ammo before they blew
the bur before they burn the barrel out.
That's crazy.
Uh, so instead the the way actually,
and this, anyone who's listening to this
remember this because I, you know, uh,
it saves me a lot of time on my email.
I not having to explain
this anymore like that.
So the way Sacco determines a barrel
has reached the end of its life mm-hmm.
Is if you have more than six
centimeter shift of point of
impact from point of a. Mm-hmm.
And not, or at, and a more than
five, 10% drop of velocity mm-hmm.
At the muzzle.
Okay.
If those, and it has to be consistent.
Okay.
We all know that muzzle velocity
changes has lots of other
factors that can affect it.
Uh, so it has to be consistently happening
repeatedly over and over in time again.
Or like that if it, if that
happens or like that, and you have
those, both, those things happen.
That's an indication.
Something's going on with your barrel.
It's time to come in and get it inspected.
So say that again.
It was 6% and so it's six, six
centimeter shift.
Six centimeter in point of impact.
Okay.
From your point of aim.
Yeah.
And a 10% drop in velocity at the muzzle.
Hmm.
So
you need both of
those things.
Both things, things happen consistently
across the board over multiple shots.
Okay.
So anyone getting the rifle to begin
with should get things zeroed in, have
a decent idea of what their average
velocity's gonna be like, and that
way they can then have a baseline on
it.
Yeah.
Just
like, yeah.
And there's always outside
factors, you know, like that.
Like if you're hand loading and you're
hold loading super hot rounds, it's
gonna burn your barrel lot faster.
Yeah.
That's an unknown factor that we can't
speak to or like that because, uh,
there's certain powders that work better
than others and like that, uh, but when
you're dealing with commercial grade
ammunition or like that, I can tell you
these things, these barrels can go for
thousands more rounds than what, uh.
They, you know, and get the
other thing, get off the forms.
Oh yeah.
You will hear 10 different
re uh, things from people on.
Oh, it's kind of changed it.
No, it's not.
Yes it is.
No it's not.
Yes it is.
No it's not.
I'm telling you, I'm the
from the factory guy.
Yeah.
This is this, this is the golden rule.
Like that, those two
factors.
It's funny how, um, you get on
these forums and there's a lot
of experts on there and you
know, there are people mm-hmm.
Who know what they're doing.
Absolutely.
They know what they're talking about.
But, uh, I, people just go a
little overboard into the minutiae
and all these little things that
don't actually move the needle.
Mm-hmm.
When it comes to accuracy,
when it comes to issues.
Uh, and very often what I find is
human factor plays such a big role, but
everyone's so quick to point out, oh,
it's gotta be this, it's gotta be that.
And I think you and I were talking about
this before and I was given the example
of a, uh, certain agency that I was
doing some gun plumbing for and getting a
phone call saying, oh, hold on a second.
One of our guns isn't working
properly, only to show up and find
out that none of the instructors had
testified it, they're going off the
word of one of their students, and
they weren't able to reproduce it.
They had me fire it.
I wasn't able to reproduce it.
Then I had to do the tap dance of being
able to help the instructors save face
for not doing the first basic checks
that you should do, which is if you're
having an issue, give it to somebody else.
Do they have the same issue?
Can they replicate the same thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because the human factors is pretty crazy,
and he, and you get on the forums and
they're gonna tell you, send it back.
Use a thing as a club that's no good
anymore, or whatever it might be.
Well, and, and, and, you know, and you're
right, I mean, I've run across agencies
and, you know, my almost 10 years of
doing this, that they've identified an
issue, which, okay, we have, we, we take
everyone seriously because of course we,
we have to, especially when you're dealing
with law enforcement or military because,
you know, potentially lives are at right
at at risk here or anything like that.
You know, you, you need, they need to
know their equipment's gonna be good
when it needs to be earth like that.
But inevitably we, we hear what
the problem is and we're like,
okay, uh, well that hasn't been
seen anywhere else in the world.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so send it in, we'll take a
look at it, everything like that.
And then one, one or one or two times.
Okay.
That's, that's maybe indication.
There might be, you know, maybe
a potential defect or something
that we weren't aware of.
So, uh, everyone, even the best
manufacturer in the world, keep
in mind, we're still human.
Of course
mistakes do happen, but when it
happens, t and if it's a 16 problem
happening multiple times, that's
when I started being like, let's
look at your procedures here.
Well how are, how are you actually doing?
'cause maybe it's something here that
could be fixed with just a simple
tweak in the training or something.
Or Yeah.
Or we need to maybe review
your torque settings.
Uh, 'cause sometimes, especially
when we're getting from Europe and
all what's in nanometers, they don't
necessarily understand how that relates
back to inch pounds or god forbid,
foot pounds, you know, like that.
If they decide to go with that,
if they get really confused.
So if you, if you can get foot
pounds outta the inch pounds and it's
still, it doesn't snap on you holy
crow, like you're asking for trouble.
Yeah.
But, uh.
But yeah, I mean, we, we run across, uh,
you know, that it's all, but education
is why, and it's making sure that,
uh, not only is the initial cadre.
That, you know, if they receive a new
weapon system or a new site trained on
it, we gotta make sure that training
is maintained within that service.
'cause guys retire.
Yeah, let's move on.
I think that's the, so, you know,
a gun manufacturer sends a lot of
time and energy to research what's
gonna make it absolutely the best
possible product that they put can
put out in a way that's replicable.
And then people get in their hands
and the first thing they want to do is
like, okay, I'm gonna change the stock
on it, get some chassis, and uh, maybe
I can get a different barrel and I'm
gonna get a threaded for a muzzle break.
What kind of trigger can I put on?
And they start taking all of these
things out and putting something else in.
And it's, I get it.
It's fun.
And the gunsmithing portion seems to
have gone by the wayside over the year,
and it's more parts replacement mm-hmm.
Or armor type stuff that people
are doing, but, but it's,
it's like tinker toys, right.
For adults, they'd like to get in there
and kind of move it around, but you can
expect to stick your finger in the bowl of
water and not expect to see some ripples.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you know, that's a
great way of putting it.
And I can tell you like, some of the
guns we get coming back to our service
and warranty center, uh, it, it's
barely a bread of product anymore,
potentially like that, where it's
like, okay, well, we'll, we'll service
what we can, but half the stuff like,
it's such a Frankenstein gun at this
point, like, and as you said, I get it.
And especially I would, I would say in
a lot of the, uh, movies in the last 10
years that have come out where you see
the really high speed, low drag guns that
have been really, really customized and.
It, you know, for the movie to
make it look good and guys want to
do that, and I don't blame them.
I, I'm, I, I see it and I kinda
wanna do it as well like that.
Sure.
Um, I get it.
I totally understand it, and if it
works, it works and that's great.
But when something doesn't work
and we, you don't necessarily
know what you actually did in
terms of how much work you've done
to, it's, it's like the, uh, oh.
Uh, not to offend anybody here,
but it's like the, it's like the
girl who can't remember what her
original hair color is anymore.
Like that, like the, the gun is
no longer in its original states.
And for us to fix it, we kind of
need to figure out what you did.
I, I think the training side, well,
I mean, I'm gonna be biased here.
I've got a training company, but
I, I think that's a huge thing from
a, um, an OEM manufacturer side.
From a marketing side, I, it's amazing
what you can accomplish from just a,
a gun straight outta the factory and
use it the way it was properly designed
to be used before you start putting
all of these different things onto it.
I remember, uh, Bourne Identity when, uh,
uh, Matt Damon there, Jason Bourne, and
he's, uh, got himself a, I think it was a
break action shotgun, and he's gotta use
a, probably using, uh, seven and a half
shot bird loads or something like that.
Right.
But it's not about the, uh,
high speed, low drag gun the
person's got in their hands.
It's about the tactics that
they employ and their ability
to actually hit a target.
Mm-hmm.
And use these things.
And I watched Meg pull.
Do this back in the day where they
started putting out training videos
and they made some nice produced
glitzy kind of training videos.
Uh, basically if you use our products and
you put 'em on the gun, you're gonna be
able to shoot faster and shoot straighter.
But really all they're doing is showing
people how to properly use again.
Mm-hmm.
It didn't really have anything to
do with the products, although that
was a great sales vehicle for them.
And it also allowed them to circumvent
advertising issues because they say,
well, this is product safety and
this is training that they have.
This is not, we're not advertising it.
Right.
So I, I thought that using the education
piece was important and you see it
with like, you know, some of the
handgun manufacturers that have, uh.
Their, uh, one day course, which
could be done in half an hour.
Right.
But it's, they spend the entire
time talking about the history
and the this and the that.
And, uh, what they're doing is they're
creating salespeople themselves out
of every person that comes on through.
Well, yeah.
And, uh, you know, we're, we're a little
guilty of that as well, and we do Sure.
Do a whole briefing of the, because that
it is important to know the background
behind the company and the manufacturer
when we're doing, like, say like a Teeka
Armor course or something like that.
Yeah.
But it'd be, you know, a
lot of people are surprised.
One, one of my favorite facts about,
uh, Teeka is that, you know, they're one
of the only gun companies in the world.
Well, they are the only gun company in the
world to have been owned by the Red Cross.
That's right.
They were to, to avoid being, you know,
sucked in during, during the Soviet
occupation or anything like that.
Right.
Yeah.
So, um, that's just a cool,
that's just a cool factor, like,
like fact about the company.
Right.
But, but going back to the point is
that like, I, I, I wanna make really
clear, I'm not hating on anybody
that wants to customize their gun.
Oh.
That's what makes it fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
It's the same reason why people,
you know, customize their cars.
They custom, like, there's
a reason why parts exist.
Yeah.
And especially at, I would say in the
current environment we have in Canada
surrounding guns and gun legislation,
uh, where you dely can't buy.
Yep.
Uh, any more of a certain
product or something like that.
But you still own it and you can use it.
Well, what else?
Where am I?
Where am I gonna put my money here?
Like that?
I'm gonna probably put maybe making it
a little more customizable for myself
or like that, and make it, make it
a little easier or a little more fun
to fire or a little more fun to use.
Um,
so you're talking about certain things
that we maybe can't own anymore.
Um, how has that, if we're
talking about, let's say the
handgun freeze in Canada mm-hmm.
How has that affected things for
stoger, for Bri defense technologies,
and do you have any thoughts on where
things might be moving in the future?
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, excellent question.
A tough one.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I, I'll preface of saying
that this is simply my opinion when
it comes down where it would head
to the future, anything like that.
Uh, 'cause you talk to 10 people,
10 guys in a room, everyone's
gonna have a different opinion
of where this is gonna go.
Uh, but in terms of how
it's affected us first.
You know, I, we've been lucky enough at
Stoger and at Breaded defense that, uh,
it really hasn't affected us too much.
Is that, uh, the hand
it, it, it, it did hurt.
Uh, sure.
You know, it was about, it was a big
segment of our business that has,
you know, now is no longer there.
Uh, but our bread and butter's been
more what a lot of people would
consider the safe firearms like that.
I guess if you wanna call
it, if call you safe.
Got it.
Uh, your bolt actions, your, you
know, you're over under shotguns.
There is, you know, but we,
we we're like everyone else.
We also do a lot of semi-autos.
We have, we, we, we've been just as a
nervous and, but also advocating within,
you know, the different circles that,
uh, you know, that we, we do serve a,
you know, a distinct and important.
Part in the community, or like that is,
and, and in society with, in terms of
conservation, in terms of, you know,
hunt responsible and respectful hunting
responsible and respectful shooting.
This is not a scary thing.
Mm-hmm.
And we're trying to, you know, uh,
advocate for that as much as possible.
But, uh, yeah, there's definitely
other manufacturers and, and
distributors and dealers out there.
The dealers are, you know, the worst hit.
And we feel for them.
And we see that in, you know, in our
dealer network and like that, that this
is, and these are just people trying to
run a business just like anybody else.
They're trying to, you know, uh, they
just decided to get into this business
because it's, I mean, they're passionate
about, which I think anybody who's runs
a successful business must be passionate
about what they're doing like that.
Yeah, I agree.
Um, and it doesn't necessarily
mean they're, you know, bad
people in the community.
They're just trying to run a business
and, you know, create a sport.
Just like any other sport out there,
like dad and help support that.
Uh, and they, you know, they pay taxes.
They, you know, they're just any other
like, you know, uh, business pillar
in the community as they should be.
Uh, so, uh, yeah, it, it
definitely has hurt them.
Where I see where, you know, this might go
if you, if you asked me, you know,
six, seven months ago mm-hmm.
We knew kind of where we saw where
it was kind of going like that.
Now with new government, with new
government, well, newer newish
government, it's really hard to say.
Uh, we know with all the commitments that
have been announced for defense spending,
Hmm.
That money just doesn't come from nowhere.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I don't, you know, it's, it's
billions of dollars they're gonna have to
put to make the 2% NATO margin by March.
Billions even more to spend to
get to the 5% they say they're
gonna hit by 2030, so, mm. Um.
They're gonna have to do cut somewhere.
And I just read an article on
the way here, actually it was on
the fer or anything like that.
And they're talking and it
was just a article of, uh,
well, a great place to start.
That cut is by this gun grab.
I read that as well.
Right.
I read that was in the
National Post, I think.
So it, it, to have, there's
been no forward movement on
it really.
So, um, they had a, so they had a
buyback program in place for businesses.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I didn't look at what the actual
numbers were on it, but I, I, from what
I understand, the numbers of firearms
that were bought back far exceeded
what they even thought was out there.
Mm-hmm.
And these are all guns that are tracked
and they should know of because of the
business license conditions and, um.
If they're estimating a number for the
civilian population, they have no idea.
They have no idea what's out there,
and the number's gonna far exceed
anything they ever thought of.
And there's no way to tell when
they've achieved their goal either.
Sure.
Yeah.
So they're gonna have to
start a program and leave that
program running indefinitely.
I mean, it's, it, it doesn't,
it doesn't make sense.
I see the gun bag buyback
program as something that's
not going to, uh, be effective.
Uh, both because it's gonna
cost way too much money.
Like it's mm-hmm.
Incredibly, incredibly expensive
to offer a proper buyback program.
Yeah.
Uh, they could just decide they
wanna ban it instead and backtrack
on a bite on the, um, buyback.
But again, they don't know where all these
guns are.
Well, and, and the, the, you know,
I'm sure there'll be people out there
that will correct me in the comments
or like that, but that even, you know,
from my understanding, the way it works
also in, in the Canadian, you know,
system, is that when you decide to
ban something that's legally purchased
property, you can't just say it's banned.
You can't use it anymore, and that's it.
Um, they have to offer fair,
like when they, when they go in
eminent domain, your property.
They still have to offer you fair
market value for that property.
You still have to get, they can't just
take it and say, get out, see you later.
Like that, like, um.
Which might be why they talk about
grandfathering, but of course
that brings in another issue.
And recently the CCFR put out this urgent
video on, I think it was last Friday.
So whenever this podcast comes out, people
will have a bit of a timeline and man,
they came under a lot of heat, everyone.
Mm-hmm.
And their urgent thing was, uh, go
talk your mps and here's a PDF you
can give them, and we're gonna try
and push for a grandfathering program.
Mm-hmm.
Well, in order to grandfather,
you also have a defacto
registry that you're gonna need.
Yep.
They're gonna need to have.
Yep.
And, um, there are a lot of question
marks of over why that organization
decided to go this route and announce
such a thing on a Friday night.
Yeah.
And then push it out.
I mean, there's, there's a lot of
internal drama and, you know, the
firearms community's known to be
able to fight within itself and
uh, yeah.
Right.
We are our own, we all
our own worst enemy.
Sure.
Um, I. Was at a, uh, a town hall
a couple years ago in Pickering.
Okay.
With, uh, and there was a couple of
the, the local mps from the conservative
party there, and it was a, you
know, a really well attended mm-hmm.
Hall.
And we got through about three questions
to the mps before a verbal, you know,
shouting match happened between two of the
attendees with each other or like that.
Mm. And it just kind of, and I'm
like, yeah, that didn't take long to,
for, you know, one guy to accuse a
guy from some about something else.
And then, you know, and then of
course there's the one old guy that
stands up and when are you gonna
bring back the, you know, maybe you're
gonna make 12 sixes legal again.
And it's just like, I. Yeah.
It's like, guys, we get on track
here with the, with the, the
message or like that, right?
Like it's, everyone has their,
their own skin in the game.
And I, and it's, it's understandable,
but it's, you kind of need to be
united at this exact same time or like
that, which is very difficult, uh,
amongst our community, unfortunately.
Right?
So,
yeah, I, I don't see it, you know,
everyone says, well, it doesn't affect me.
It's only for the handguns.
I don't have handguns.
It doesn't, it's only for the hunters.
I don't hunt.
It's only for, so the hand gunner are an
important piece of the puzzle for the gun
stores because talk, talking with the gun
stores, they say the hunters, they come
in, they buy their rifle, they get it all
kitted out, and that was a great sale.
And they come in once a year and
they get more hunting ammunition.
Yeah.
Right.
The, uh, the sports shooters are the
ones that are coming in, getting lots
of ammo, getting new kit, getting
accessories, and the handguns, of
course, is a big portion of that.
And so if people want to have a place
where they can get their hunting rifle
and their hunting shotgun, they're
gonna want to speak up when the hand
gunners who are basically subsidizing
this store to be able to stay open.
So when you, we talk about, hey,
people gotta rally together and
get on the same page, you know, I,
I did a podcast, uh, with a fellow
who owns a suppressor manufacturing
manufacturer business, uh, KGM mm-hmm.
In the states.
And I, I got some people trying chime in.
It's like, oh, that's all well and good,
but seriously, why are you talking about
suppressors and why they should be legal?
And like, you should be looking at
these issues right here and now.
Right.
And okay, we're always gonna need
people to hold the line, but you're
also gonna need people who can
push things further and forward.
Yeah.
'cause if all you're ever concerned
with is holding that line, that line
moves back, okay, hold it there.
That line moves back again.
Okay.
Hold it there.
Someone's gonna have to push
that line in the other direction.
Yeah.
And what I could see is the, uh, when I
try and look at this and I don't have the
answers, and I try and find out, talk to
other people who might have the answers,
I see some of our gun advocacy advocate.
I see some of our gun advocacy groups
as being very, very good at raising,
uh, donations and memberships by
speaking to their base and perhaps
not putting the same efforts in, in
areas that could actually move the
needle forward or unite communities.
Mm-hmm.
They'll fight with each other.
They'll, uh, uh.
You know, I'm, I'm gonna be cautious
about how I go here 'cause I don't wanna
be tearing down certain groups because
everyone does.
No, listen.
Every every group has its place and
advocacy is incredibly important.
I agree with you.
Uh, one of the things though that
I've always thought that we should be
advocating more towards is it's really,
it's, it's really simple to send me, you
know, email blasts and you're advocating,
as you said to the base, but why?
But we need to be advocating and
speaking to the non firearms owners.
'cause there's lots of uneducated people
out there that don't understand the,
the, the, i, I know a lot of people.
I think, actually, I think last time
we heard, we talked about during COV,
a lot of people got educated about what
it means to actually own a firearm.
Because I know I was getting contacted
by people saying, I wanna buy a gun.
Cool.
Uh, what's your pal?
You know, just gimme, I need
your pal so I can verify it.
What's a pal?
They just didn't know, like they
didn't know they needed a license.
They didn't know they needed
to go through like training.
They didn't know that to take the, you
know, the, the pal, the PAL course.
They didn't know all, you know that
oh, your weekly, you know, your daily
is subjected to a background check or
like that, like we say these things,
but how much of that is getting out
beyond just the base of the firearms
owners and now to the general public.
But at that town hall meeting, I remember
I talked to the MP and I said in my
previous experience with, uh, wounded
Warriors, uh, when Winters Canada,
where was, uh, we talked about, you
know, advocacy for, uh, veterans with
PTSD and first responders with that
as well as their fa as the families.
And we found a huge component of
that was education, not only of to
the families what was out there, but
also to groups, the regular everyday
population, but also to the government
of kind of, this is actually what
these men and women are facing.
Um, here's what you need to improve.
And so I asked, I told the mp and I'm
like, one of the things that I think
would be really helpful as a government.
Would be to create a simple
information portal of anyone who's
interested in owning a firearm.
Here's the steps you have to do, which
is, it's all government run, you know,
the PAL course, the safety course.
Yes.
It's, it's run by the F-S-C-S-O, but
it's essentially, you know, government
mandated and, you know, regulated or like
that to provide an education platform for
anyone who's interested in, you know, you
know, purchasing and owning a firearm.
What it takes to get there like that.
Uh, unfortunately I was told, well,
that's, that's your responsibility,
not the government's responsibility
to, you know, provide that education.
Uh, so advocating for
the base is excellent.
Firing it up is great because
you need to have that.
But, you know, as you said, we do
kinda need to unite a bit better, but
we also need to educate the population
that doesn't understand what's what
we, what we go through to own a
firearm, what we go through to be
part of that community, or like that.
I, I think there's a number of steps
that are already in place that people.
Like you say, they don't understand,
but you know, I don't know.
You're not gonna convince the
people who don't like them.
No, no.
Uh, the people who do like 'em,
you don't have to convince.
Right?
Yeah.
Because they, they already like 'em
for whatever their reason's gonna be.
But the, the political side, I, I,
I think personally, uh, educating.
The base as to how to
properly approach politicians.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
In a respectful way.
Yeah.
How to apply pressure properly.
And so that if, let's say, and how, how
to form a, a cogent argument or a, uh,
something that would be politically,
um, distasteful for, uh, somebody
to want to wear if the conversation
shifts, if it's, Hey, we're gonna ban
guns because look at all the shootings.
Uh, no more guns, some more shootings.
Right?
That logic flow is easy to digest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In a quick tag line.
Right.
But the reality of it is, okay,
we've been taking all these steps
to ban and shootings are going
up, or crimes going up, right?
Yeah.
Where is our, uh, where are
our efforts best served?
And I think it has to become politically
convenient for, uh, people to.
Uh, to be able to speak
out in a certain way.
'cause I, I think there's a, like,
we look at cancel culture, right?
And, uh, I see cancel culture
kind of going by the wayside.
Uh, people are, that was at,
at least it doesn't have the
same push that it had before.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but people like to belong and
they want, they don't want to be found
on the wrong side of an argument.
And, uh, everyone else is
saying a certain thing.
And I guess it's easy enough to do.
Like you see that often enough.
How do you make it easy for the
masses to push together in a way
that's gonna be beneficial for
everybody, for, for the masses, right?
Mm-hmm.
And including the gun owners.
And, and I think, uh, that's
where our efforts have
to be.
Uh, uh, yeah.
I would, I I would agree.
And, uh, to your comment, uh, that,
you know, you're never gonna convince
someone who doesn't like him.
And you, you're right.
I, like, I, I liken it to this.
When I was in, um, college and I was
taking, uh, I was in firefighter training
and I was part of my medical training,
they said, uh, 10% of the people.
No matter what you do are gonna die.
Sure.
10% of the people you run
across, no matter what happens
to them, are gonna live.
Sure.
It's that 80%.
That's the, that's the group you
need to deal with with like that.
And I, I, you know, I just a quick, you
know, point before we get to the second
one you said, but I've been in the
homes of, you know, I, I die a diehard,
you know, some diehard, you know,
liberals or diehard anti-gun people.
And then they ask, well,
why do you need a gun?
And I'm like, I don't need one.
Mm-hmm.
I, I enjoy having it.
It's, it's a privilege I've earned
and this is the steps I've taken to
do it, but I can't just walk around
with it, you know, in my, like, on my,
it's not like in the US I can't walk
around with it on my, like, I, I don't,
I don't have a carry permit or like
that, like that doesn't exist so much.
And it, it's hard, extremely
difficult to get in Canada.
I don't just walk around.
There's a, there's rules
to transporting these guns.
There's rules to storage.
And after explain all this
to the person, they're like.
Well, that makes sense.
Hmm.
Okay.
Like, I understand that and I'm like,
they didn't know that before and all
of a sudden it, they may still not
think, oh, I, I don't want a gun.
Hmm.
But I understand necessarily
why you want one.
I understand the steps you have to take
then to get one so you're not convincing
them, but they're not necessarily,
and then now, so diehard kind of like,
well, I didn't know that had to happen.
If that's the case.
Oh, okay.
I guess I'm okay with it.
If you guys want one, they don't
necessarily need to be the one, they don't
wanna necessarily want to have to have
the, be the one that actually buys it or
own it, but all of a sudden they're no
longer as hardcore about me owning one.
And I, and I think you're right.
You don't have to convince
other people of your side.
And I think that's a, a losing battle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but having them.
Asking some questions.
No.
Opening them up.
Yeah.
Why do you need a gun?
Well, some people actually
do need a gun, right?
Like some people, not
everybody lives in the city.
Yeah.
And some people who live in
the city probably need a gun.
Yes.
Yeah.
But, uh, but definitely, but
like, yeah, you're right.
I, I have friends who are farmers and
like that, and they have, you know, they,
they, they need one on their property.
Why do they want, well, because they need
to defend their, you know, what their,
their, you know, their, uh, their animals.
They need to defend, be able to defend
their property from large breeders.
They need to be able to themselves.
If they go out with like that,
uh, you know, why do you hunt?
Well, 'cause I enjoy it.
Or like that.
Well, aren't, don't you feel
bad about, you know, taking,
you know, killing a deer?
No, because I have a tag, because
they've done studies to realize that
we're allowed to take this many deer
without affecting the population.
In fact.
We're making sure that everything's
in a, in a healthy balance.
'cause if there's too much of a
certain, you know, animal like that,
it's no longer a healthy ecosystem
or like, you know, same thing.
Why do you fish?
Well, because I enjoy it.
Yeah.
For one.
Um, and two, it's because
I'm allowed to do it.
And because you can't have
too much of one thing.
It's like you, you can't eat
too much pizza or you can't
have too much McDonald's 'cause
you're not gonna feel good.
Yeah.
It took me a long
time to put that correlation
of it.
Of course we can do
whatever we feel like that.
Yeah.
Like, like we still do it, obviously,
but, uh, but you know what I mean, it's
that it's the whole, a lot of people
don't understand like that, that the
conservation, you know, and hunting isn't
just about going and killing an animal.
It's a one.
You know, and people ask me, uh, I'm
not really a, a waterfowl hunter.
Sure.
'cause I don't really like duck.
Sure.
I'm a big, I'm a thing.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hunt
something that I'm not gonna eat.
I
agree.
Uh,
I have friends that
love waterfowl hunting.
It's just not really my
thing or anything like that.
I like, you know, I'll hunt deer, I'll
go Turkey hunting, uh, you know, and I'll
go, you know, farm it and stuff like that.
I help out a friend's, uh, farm and he's
like, you can hunt on my property, but if
you see a coyote, you got, you shoot it.
Yep.
Okay.
No problem.
'cause there's rules.
Yeah, there's rules around that.
I'm helping 'em out, but, uh, I,
by not just a, you know, it's just
not really, it's just not my thing.
And again, I might get some hateful
comments there, but that does, it's just,
but it's because I have a, I have, I have
a rule in my head that I will, I'm not
gonna kill someone that I'm not gonna eat.
Right.
Yeah.
No, I don't think you get a
hateful comments for that.
Yeah.
You know, there's, I'm still
surprised by the number of people
who don't know that you can actually
still buy handguns in Canada.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
So for employment reasons, if you need
it for your job or for work, you can,
you can go ahead and still buy hand guys.
You can.
Yep, yep.
There are provisions there and
there's a lot of people who
don't actually understand the
totality of what that means.
And if they, so I've, I, without going
too far into it, if they're interested,
they can listen to past podcasts.
They, with Rachel Atilla.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
She got her authorization to
carry, purchased some pangan.
I put together, I think it was
30 pages of, um, material for the
National Firearms Association.
You can download that for
free, step by step shows you,
will, you meet the criteria.
What do those criteria look like?
And, 'cause I think it's important
that people like absolutely don't
push things in, in a way that
they're not supposed to be pushed.
Yeah.
Don't find a workaround in a way
that you're not supposed to find
a workaround, but be educated as
to what the rules actually are.
Yeah.
And, and, uh, I think people can be pretty
surprised at how many, uh, individuals.
Still qualify for purchasing a handgun.
Yeah.
Now I will say, going back to the
defense and law enforcement side of
this, ever since they decided to put
this freeze and this ban, 'cause they
froze handgun sales, but they also banned
imports, uh, initially right now with
the exception of government agency.
Sure.
But, but when they banned the
imports, they actually banned it.
They just blanket banded earth like that.
So everything, it took a little
while for us to figure out how
to actually get handguns back in
the country, and it is still very
difficult really to bring handguns in.
Uh, so what they've, by doing it,
they've also made it very difficult
to bring handguns in to support.
Law enforcement agencies and
military agencies within Canada.
Um, it's, uh, an ex, there's a,
used to be, I'd just be able to
apply for an international import
certificate, an IEC, right?
That's no longer allowed.
Really?
I have to apply for what they call an arms
ammunitions permit from Global Affairs.
Well, I can't, but I, as a, as a
manufacturer, I can't apply for that.
I have to get my customs
broker to apply for it.
Right?
And to do that, I have to
have commercial invoicing.
I have to have FRT, which is
the registration completed.
I have to have list of serial
numbers from the manufacturer.
It's a whole long list of stuff.
Is it something we've kinda worked
out now and we kinda guys, we've
as a smooth trajectory to do now?
Yes, we do, but it's an extra,
it's a couple extra steps.
That initially, I remember when
they first, when they first put the
freeze in, and I had a client come
to me and say, okay, we're we wanna
order a thousand more handguns?
And we literally told 'em,
we don't know how to do this.
Wow.
'cause now there is no vehicle to do it.
Wow.
And it took us six months with working
with Global Affairs to figure it out.
Six months.
And meanwhile you have an agency that
can't get their duty issued firearms
because, uh, so when that, when
that occurred or like that it's all
No, it's all been smoothed out now.
But again, are you surprised?
Well, no, but you know,
because, uh, it always.
I, I don't know.
It, it always makes me scratch my
head a little bit as to like, number
one, why it would end up like that.
Like the, that no one can bring it in.
Number two, what had to happen in order to
be able to, uh, figure out a way around,
would that be policy interpretation?
Was new law created
and, uh, not that I'm aware of.
Or like the arms, the arms
emissions ity existed, right?
I guess they just found, okay,
here's a vehicle where we can
do it now with, like that.
So they kind of switched over to
this, but, uh, it just, it, when you
put a blanket ban on something, you
don't realize that it affects, you
don't, it's hard to exempt something
when you, when you, you know, like,
so it was an interesting, uh, a
couple years, a couple years ago.
It was an interesting couple
of months there like that, but
I believe it.
But I, I guess that goes to
the point which, and most
likely they found another way.
There's already something in there.
So there's the letter of the law
and there's the intent of the law.
Mm-hmm.
And, um.
If they're able to find a
different way around it, that means
basically the intent of the law
is being applied through policy.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, through civil servants
whom we don't elect in or out.
Nope.
Nope.
And who will maintain through governments,
and I'm finding just not on the business
side, but the individual side, the
ability to navigate the, the civil servant
bureaucracy is, uh, it's an art form.
It's not something Yes.
It's definitely not something that
I would, that comes natural to.
To me, and I've gotten a lot
of coaching and assistance
in how to be able to do that.
But that's another area where I think
the, uh, the general firearms wanting
public can use help from their mm-hmm.
Uh, different.
Well, and, and I'll tell you like
Travis, so over nine years of this
job, that's something I've had to, uh,
really work on trying to navigate and,
uh, work to, you know, I work with all.
The government agencies.
'cause I, I have to
Mm.
Uh, and the government no bureaucracies
because otherwise nothing gets,
nothing gets done on my side.
So.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I'm pretty, you know, you learn to be
pretty well versed on it, but it's taken
years to get, figure it out like that.
So it is not the average person, unless
you are constantly bidding on government
contracts or like that, why would you
know about the bureaucracy process to,
but it's a
game to go through it, right?
Yeah.
It's no
hate against the
individuals in there.
Absolutely not.
It's no hate against, they're
doing, they're doing a job.
They're just like anyone else's.
So like that.
And it's not that they're, you
know, they're not trying to make,
you know, things harder for you.
They're just working in one
office in a, in a very big system.
Every once in a while you'll find
that one individual who will, uh,
make things really difficult for you.
You'll find that one individual who
will make things really easy for you.
Right.
It's just like.
Policing or anywhere
you, you would find that in at, at a
line, at the drive, anywhere Starbucks
or like that.
You're always gonna find that
1% policing or just switched
straight off Somebody like that.
Yeah,
that 1%, that's terrible, but
that 98% that the masses are
going to be just, we're humans.
Animals.
Yep.
There's a reason why
animals have game trails.
It's because they find a safe path.
They take that safe path.
Yeah.
It's a path of least resistance.
And that's the area that I think that
individuals in the firearms community
can use the most help on is how do you
understand that game and that safe path.
So you can allow the civil servant
to do their job in a way that doesn't
make them look bad, allows 'em to
do it in a way that they've got
accountability and defensibility and
they're showing the public they're
doing the right thing, but also allows
you to get where you need to go.
Yeah.
And now I remember Dave Tomlinson, uh,
deceased many years ago, but he started
the NFA, I think he started it, but
he was basically the NFA for a number
of years, and he put out this, um,
authorization to transport a cheat sheet.
And prior to him putting that out.
The firearms program says, okay,
you've got a restricted firearm.
You, if you want to transport it,
you're gonna need a separate document.
An authorization to transport.
Yep.
Yep.
So you fill this out.
Your, your firearms license
is good for five years.
Your a TT is good for
one, two, or three years.
How long do you want it to be good for?
Right.
And so people have to fill it out.
What time of the day do you
think you're gonna transport it?
So they fill it out, where are
you gonna transport it from?
Well, and from my house over to the rings.
And they fill out the name of the rings
and they go through this whole thing.
Dave Tomlinson says, hold on a second.
If it's good for three
years, pick three years.
When are you gonna transport it?
Well, why would you want to be a
criminal if you're transporting
outside of the hours that you put
down because your car broke down
or because there's a traffic down.
Yeah.
2,400 to 2,400.
Uh, what range?
All approved gun clubs are ranges.
So he created this sort of thing.
The firearms program looks
at it and says, yeah, okay.
I guess that makes sense.
And after a while, nobody had
to fill out by this cheat sheet.
They just knew how to issue it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was easy for them.
Made sense.
It was easy for the individual.
They play, played by the rules, but
you always need those outliers who
can objectively look at it and find
a way that allows the, um, civil
server to do their job and save face.
And that's something, that's why I
created that template on a, on ATCs.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a cheat.
It's not a workaround.
It just tells people who's
actually eligible for it.
Yeah.
And, and, and how to do it.
And I think if we can start pushing.
Those sort of things, we might
find more effective change on,
uh, our ability to use guns.
Yeah.
Yep.
As opposed to that one,
the civil server one.
And then the, of course, the
political side of which I'm,
I'm not a political guy.
I, I talk to other people
much smarter than myself.
It is an
art, uh, to manage politics
or anything like that.
And yeah.
That's, it's not something a lot
of people don't have a lot of PA
lot of politicians don't have the
ability to work the political system.
Right.
That, let's face it.
Sure.
So it's a, it's, it is an art
form and there's some, there's
some people out there that can
just do it expertly like that.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and they have my respect that
actually that they can actually
survive in that, that that arena.
Because
if they can do it with
integrity, well, yeah.
Hell yeah.
As long as it, yeah, that's, I say as
long as they do with
integrity because Wow.
Um, but, uh, but it, it's a
difficult, difficult system.
But I agree, I agree with basically
everything you're saying is that like,
you know, that you, you need, we need to
be able to be a little more educated, a
little more ability to work within the
system that unfortunately we have to.
That we live with in Canada
and we need to be able to, um,
you know, utilize it to the, uh, our,
our, our benefit a bit more like that.
Right?
So, but by educating
ourselves on how to do it,
and I, and I think if people look
at it from a different perspective,
'cause there's just us against I
mentality that I quite often see
and I get where it comes from.
I mean, when there's so many rules
that are put on an individual or
on a group, all of a sudden they
start making their own rules.
'cause they wanna feel
like they have Yeah, yeah.
Their own control over things.
And then they, you find
these different subsections.
But if you can learn how to use the
rules or change the rules politically
or through, uh, the civil servant
process, uh, maybe people will
start playing together because they
understand how that game is played.
And yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
And, you know, I don't have it
fully fleshed out on the, the path
forward, but it's something I've
been thinking about lately as to.
How businesses, organizations, individuals
can, uh, achieve an ends that meets
public safety needs and allows civil
servants to show their due diligence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and, and I think, uh, you know,
most gun owners out there agree that,
you know, like we, we play a huge part
in the public safety aspect of it.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to, in order to, we need
to, you know, like in order, because
it's important for us to, to have
everyone to, you know, for us to
be seen as we're agents of safety.
We're not agents of chaos
or anything like that.
Like we're, we're here to, yeah, we
wanna defend our right to own these
things and use 'em, but in a safe
and respectful manner to everyone
involved, something like that.
So, uh, we need to be, have, we need
to be on, you know, the, on that, a
voice on that board of public safety,
uh, you know, with everyone, you know,
with within the conversation because.
We need to prove, you
know, that's part of it.
The, the whole talk and communication
everyth, like that we, you know,
well it's, it's how you comport
yourself, I think is big.
But I also think that the more
that people harp on a certain
issue, the more they make that
issue the thing in the spotlight.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It, it's like I, I've always been
advocating for like, why, why
do we make the gun the issue?
Like if, if shootings are a
problem, the gun's not the problem.
The shooting's a problem.
Yeah.
Right.
Gun violence is just violence
and someone chose to use a
gun or whatever it might be.
Yeah.
Why don't we look at the violence issue?
What, what's that coming from?
Right.
Yeah.
Is it, um, um, is it low income?
Is it, um, uh, lower education?
Is it, um, drugs?
Is it at risk?
Like, all, all of these different, like
how do we approach it without falling
into the same trap of looking at the tool,
the implement as opposed Well, it's, it's
easier.
It's really easy to blend the tool.
Yeah.
It, it is over.
A, the larger problem as
a, as a whole or like that.
And, you know, I, I, I, I, yeah.
It's, it's a men mental health
is a, it's a tricky, I haven't
worked in it for years.
It's a, it, it is a tricky,
tricky thing to try to wrap
your head around or like that.
And it is so many, it's
a, such a layered problem.
Um, let's
talk about, so you had a child mm-hmm.
Last time that we were
here and, and, uh, so
what about three years old now?
Uh, he is three and three and a half now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just, uh, three, three
and a half going on 10.
Uh, it, it feels like, uh, yeah.
How's that working out?
Yeah.
You know what I, I mean, I,
it has completely changed
my entire outlook on life.
I mean, you hear this from lots of parents
and like that, but it, it really has.
Okay.
Why and how, tell me,
uh,
prior to having him, I would exp you know.
My de I was dedicated to my,
you know, my, my partner.
I was dedicated to my job.
But, you know, both those things can
trade off each other, what I was doing
that day, or like that, I can honestly
tell you that, and, you know, this
isn't, my boss may be listening to
this or like that, so it's nothing, I'm
not dedicated to my job there, George.
Uh, it hasn't, but it's, my entire
life is now, everything I do is
basically dedicated to hammer like that.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, with both also trying
to maintain myself and, you know,
my relationship and like that.
So, but it's, um,
and it's, it's, it's, it's
difficult, especially like I can't
raise in the way I was raised.
I was born in the early eighties.
I grew up Sure.
I grew up to, to boomer parents.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you know, they, they, if you wanna
call me, I guess you would call me
a millennial or like that, but, uh,
what they call the el, you know, I've
heard that term, elder, millennial.
I grew up, you know, I grew up still
being able to, you know, go home and
come back when the, you know, when
the lights turned on or like that.
And there was no, you know, smartphones
didn't exist that my fir when I went
on my tour, you know, at Afghanistan,
smartphones didn't exist yet.
Like that, like, so, like iPods
were around, but that was 2008,
I think 2008, 2009 was like that.
Yeah.
Like I didn't get my first smartphone,
I think till 2011 or something.
Yeah.
So I didn't grow up with, you know,
that, that, that type of technology.
And, uh, so, you know, like I, I admit
like, you know, like if I opted out
or anything like that, I got hit.
Sure.
Well, you can't do that anymore like that,
I guess based on if you've You can, you
can, but, but that's, it doesn't work.
It's, it's not seen the same way.
It doesn't work like that.
So I'm trying to navigate this
much i's a bunch of parents out
there and, um, yeah, and it's just.
He, he's great.
You know, his personality's
coming out now.
It's, you know, it's fun.
Like, uh, I was on the way over here
actually driving over from, uh, from,
uh, we're staying downtown, uh, yeah,
Vancouver and I was driving over
here and he was talking on the phone.
He's back in Ontario, so this is
the three hour difference he's
getting ready for bed and he,
not, not a proud moment for me
necessarily, but he drops his first FBO
F-bomb to me about that on the phone.
And I'm like, oh God, buddy.
What'd you learn that word from?
I like dad thinking fully,
well, it's probably me.
Uh, it's hard to take the army out of
the guy or like that, and I, I, I have
to be really, I have to watch my, my
wife's constantly telling me, you know,
watch your French or anything like that.
I don't take the
guy outta the army.
Can't take the army outta the guy.
Yeah,
but you, you talk about,
you know, you can't hit him.
When I, um, had my first kid, I looked
and I was like, why would anybody
want to hit, that's their child.
I have no interest in doing it either.
Like, yeah.
Before I had my child, I was like,
well, I just, I guess that's normal, I
guess, how, that's how things are done.
And I thought about it.
I says, well.
Like I was stubborn.
Stubborn, stubborn, stubborn.
Maybe ODD, what do they call it?
Oppositional defiance.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like super stubborn, right?
Uh, and A DHD.
So that was diagnosed at grade three,
severe A DHD, and, and I look at it.
Okay, so you hit your kid
and do you get compliance?
Maybe, maybe When that threat
of hitting is over top of them.
Yeah.
What happens if you don't,
then what do you do?
Do you hit harder?
That's it.
Right?
Well, at what point do you stop?
Yeah.
Right.
So if at some point you gotta
stop, maybe just don't start.
Yeah.
And it's amazing how much, um,
better I found the ability
to raise a child by.
Giving them a layer of control and
that that doesn't mean that they've
got, they, they run the show.
Yeah.
They, everything.
They go, it's like, do you
wanna go to bed now or do you
wanna go to bed in 10 minutes?
Like, either way they're going to bed.
But if you take away their control,
they no longer have the ability
to be able to do things 'cause
you're bigger and stronger.
Um, they don't learn how
to deal with problems.
It's a world of hurt for yourself.
Yeah.
And, and for them.
Well, and have found, like, it, it,
I mean, I, I shouldn't be surprised
that already a three and a half.
He's stubborn as all hell.
He's, he's, he's a mixture of
my, my, by myself and my wife.
He's Irish.
I'm, I have s Scottish
and Norwegian background.
Not exactly the most cl known to be
the most compliant people on earth.
So, uh, so he's, he, you know, and
already he's uh, you know, pretty,
pretty stubborn with of stuff.
But is he testing my patients?
Absolutely.
Like every day, anything like that.
But it's also found that it's.
You know, I improving myself in order
to be patient, which I wasn't really
all that, uh, not my strong suit.
I will fully admit.
It's not, uh, uh, the only time I've ever
been patient up till now, essentially,
is when I'm behind, you know, a rifle
scope on a long distance range where
I actually have the ability to kind of
just calm down on a little bit like that.
But when he's yelling and screaming
and crying and I have to sit there
and just kinda hold him while he
gets through his fit or like that.
Mm-hmm.
That's, that's a whole other,
that's something I, I, I wasn't
capable of until I had him.
But
that pushings important too.
Right.
And when you reframe the, uh, the problem,
so you've done it in, in a couple ways.
So, uh, sometimes I look at people
that are really difficult to deal with.
I'm like, wait a minute.
They're teaching me how to
deal with difficult people.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if I can deal with this
person, everything else is gonna
be gravy, little mental reframe,
same situation, but easier.
Right.
For me and for them, uh, when they push,
like I tell my kids, you know, it's good.
I'm glad you're pushing.
It's important you push because
if you're not, you're not growing.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
However, there's ways that you can push
and find success and there's ways that
you can push that's gonna define your
getting your head against a brick wall.
Yeah.
And so really quickly you start teaching
'em how to push and how to push in a
way that'll, like, I want nothing more
than my kids to not need me and Yeah.
Be a hundred percent want to be
with me, not need to be with me.
Yeah.
Right.
And, uh, I think they both reached
that, that have at an early age, and
thankfully they still want to be with me.
Well, I, I, I'm, I hope one
day he gets to that point.
'cause there is, there is definitely
times through the day where
I'm like, just gimme a second.
Okay.
Like, could you not?
But again, he's probably still really
young, but, uh, but yeah, I mean,
but when it came, like, one thing
I was not prepared for was, uh, and
I, we had read all up about, uh, you
know, like, uh, about postpartum.
Yep.
Getting ready for potentially with,
you know, with my partner like that,
supporting her during the process.
I was not prepared for myself Mm. To
go through a battle with depression.
Hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
No, that's it.
It people don't look at the guys Yeah.
When they, when they go through it.
Yeah.
And I, I mean, as we talked about in the
last time I was here, anyone who you know,
was, is meeting me for the first time.
Uh, I, you know, have PTSD related to my
mil military service from my last tour.
Yep.
I battled, I've been battling for years.
Uh, it was back in 2012, I
almost lost my battle with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I attempted to, made
a, made a suicide attempt.
Thank God it failed.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, but I was at one of my lowest
moments at that moment, um, was,
you know, I can't even kill myself.
Like, how much of a loser am I that
I can't even do this or like that.
And I managed to, we, you know, through
help from outside sources as well as,
uh, just, you know, being who I am,
I was able to pull myself out of it.
Thank again, thank God.
Mm-hmm.
But, and I've been, I've been really good
for the last couple years and then, yeah,
all of a sudden it was maybe a year ago
that I just suddenly kind of fell back
into a pretty deep depression earth like
that I realized I was kind of, I felt
just kind of alone in the whole thing.
I thought that of how did you realize
that you're falling into the depression?
What did that look like?
Really compensating throughout the day?
Compensating.
Compensating throughout the day,
acting like everything was good.
'cause I felt I needed to, I
felt I really needed to around
my partner to be supportive.
I really felt I needed to be right.
I, around my son, showing him a strong,
you know, uh, character and a strong
person in front of him that would, you
know, kind of lead him through some
stuff, uh, being, you know, reactive and,
but being, you know, present at work.
But then when I had my times.
She'd put, you know, when he'd gone to
bed and sometimes, often when my wife
would put him to bed, we, we'd take
turns to do it and everything like
that, but sometimes when she'd put him
in bed, she would fall asleep as well.
'cause it's really easy to fall
asleep with a little child on top
of you when they're nice and calm
and they're nicely breathing.
It's really, it's really like, that's even
better than, that's better than any calm
app or anything in front of you like that.
Like, uh, so it's really, really, you
know, that's, that's like her happy place.
But then I'm by myself for a
couple hours and after I've done
all the dishes and the cleaning,
I've realized the house is quiet.
Hmm.
And then all of a sudden I
realized that the house is quiet,
but it's not quiet in my head.
And, uh, just, you know, I felt
like alone or like that and kind of
just like, uh, and I, I recognize.
This path.
'cause I'm like, I've
been down this before.
I don't like, I, I know, I know
where this is going or like that.
But, uh, why, why am I feeling this way?
I have a great job.
I have a family.
I have my son.
They're all awesome Earth like that.
What, why am I feeling
like I'm not needed?
Why am not wanted?
Why?
Like, why am I feeling
I'm not good enough?
And this is why I ask.
Because you've been down the path.
Mm-hmm.
Not everybody has.
And if they start going down
that path, they might not realize
they're actually on a path.
Yeah.
And, and being aware.
And the other thing I find in our
community, in the gun community,
nobody wants to reach out for help.
Yeah.
Nobody wants to talk to a doctor.
Why?
Because secondly say, oh, having
some issues, is a doctor gonna now
say, oh, firearms license gone.
And maybe that's, maybe
that's your big hobby.
Maybe they've got a big
investment in there.
Maybe it's a big part of their social
group and their life and all the rest.
And I'll say this much.
Most doctors won't.
Oh, yeah.
Most, uh, psychiatrists, most, there's
always gonna be an outlier, but the
vast majority of them realize that
there is a separation between these two.
And that worry that the gun community has.
Yeah.
Go talk to someone.
Well,
it is no different from all the
advocacy I did prior to when I was
still with wound Warriors, and still
to this day still do a little bit.
It like that is that a lot of, a lot of
police officers, a lot of firefighters,
a lot of military members, they,
they think if I come forward with
my prom, that's the end of my job.
That's the end of my career.
Mm-hmm.
They're gonna boot me out.
They're gonna see me as weak.
They're gonna see me as, it's the
same, you know, I, my site, when
I, when I finally, you know, when I
reached back out and I got help with my
psychiatrist, it was never the question.
Mm-hmm.
Well, you shouldn't have guns then.
It never even came up.
Right.
It was just, okay, how can,
how can we help you right now?
Like that she knows I own guns.
We've talked about it.
She knows what I do for
a living or like that.
It was, wasn't even because of changed.
It's not gonna change.
She, it's nothing's, that's not gonna
be a factor or anything like that.
Right.
We know historic, historically
and statistically suicides are
not actually, people don't choose
guns to kill themselves with.
Statistically it's many other factors
they can choose, but the majority of
suicides are not done through a gun.
Um, see, even though, even
if you have one in the house,
so I, some of the statistics, and I
might not be up to date, women typically
offer pills and men, uh, will typically
opt for a firearm from what I've seen
if, if they've got that availability.
But it's possible.
Um, but, but a rope is a lot more common.
Yeah.
I have found, and, and, uh, you know, um,
I, I told you before I came out here than
my dad, so since I was last year mm-hmm.
Uh, I've lost two more friends and
I can tell you neither of them.
Chose a gun because they wanted to leave.
You know, like I, I've talked
to people who've survived it.
Mm-hmm.
And myself, having survived my
attempt, I wanted to leave my
body intact for whoever found me.
Yeah.
I didn't want it to be a closed
casket for them Earth like that.
If they, so they wanted, if
they wanted to say goodbye.
I don't, I didn't, I don't like the idea
of an open casting myself, but it was
still something I didn't wanna leave.
Well, you don't really
want somebody coming in
and cleaning up that mask.
No.
And if that's part of the
thought process, that's good.
That's healthy.
That's, uh, I, I think, um.
Some people, they just reach a
point where they just don't care.
Yeah.
And, and I've said this one on the
podcast before, but I remember one
doctor saying, you know, I've taken this
approach and I haven't lost anybody yet.
Knock on wood.
And he says, somebody comes in and they
say, you know, I've got suicidal ideation.
I am, um, I'm really depressed.
I don't see why I belong here.
No one's gonna miss me if I'm gone.
I think, um, I'm doing
more harm than good.
All all the typical
stuff that comes up Yeah.
Which is completely off base,
but that's your perspective.
Yeah.
At the time.
And the doctor says, you might be right.
Yeah.
Maybe killing yourself
is the right option.
However, right now is, you're not in the
frame of mind to make a proper decision.
Let's, let's circle back
three months from now.
Let's try a few different things.
If it still comes back and it, it
turns out that you are actually a big
loser and the world would be better
without you, then uh, then we can
take a look at next steps for you.
Yeah.
He says to date never lost somebody.
Yeah.
If they're able to just push
forward past that and provide
a little bit of an alternative
perspective as to their situation.
Yeah.
Because like another friend
of mine, Jay Bud, he's talking
about, you know, the darkest days.
He has, he likens it to, um, and he
said this on the podcast, so it's
not like I'm out outing someone.
Um, he was in Afghanistan and
um, was a sniper with them.
So he likens it to being in
the hills in the mountains.
He'll go out and it's a big old storm and
it's dark and it's blowing and it's hard.
And he gets into his shelter and some of
the best blueboard days he's had is the
day after that when it's all blown over.
Yeah.
And you have that comparison and if you
know that there's gonna be something
else on the other side, but yeah.
You just gotta be able
to hunker down for now.
Yeah.
And like, uh, so I, I remember I, I saw
there's this video that every once in
a while creeps up, but like it stuck
in my head is that it was just a.
It was, uh, just asking
out there into the ether.
Um, you know, men, who do you talk
to when you're, when you're sad?
Nobody, every single
guy interviewed No one.
Or they're like, no one,
no one gives a shit.
Yeah.
Or the, or the ones I don't tell
anybody 'cause it'll be used against me.
Uhhuh.
And it's just line, a line of men just
going like, one guy's, like, we can talk
to people like, whatcha you talking about?
Like that.
And, you know, and that kind
of leads down, you know, the
algorithms in social media.
Then that leads down a just video upon
video of guys just saying, uh, not
necessarily all bad videos, but just,
uh, of like the videos we see where it's
just men, not men being misunderstood
or men not being understood about
like, why, or being emotional and
like that, but no one can, they can't
talk about it or things like that.
And then, or, or you get the,
the, the Chris Rock video where he
is like, you know, only I. Yeah.
Three things in life or love
unconditionally like that.
Sure.
Your wife, your dog, your child.
Mm-hmm.
Men are only loved for what they
provide and stuff like that.
And like, but like you start hearing
these things and stuff like that.
And that's where it's kind of, it's fun at
first, but this is also, if you're already
in that depressive state, I can tell you
that's where, that's where social media
starts becoming an ugly thing and not, you
already are in a bit of a fragile state
and now you really start believing it.
And that's what, that's kinda what
was happening to me a bit as well.
And I just felt, so I have, you know,
and I, I have two or three friends out
near where I live out in Durham region.
All of us, I have young kids.
Yep.
And I started, you know, and a lot, all
of us had served in the army together.
We were the closest
friends back in the day.
We, like dad, we all had
worn the uniform together.
Some of us are, one of 'em even works
in the same industry as me, like in,
and we're probably no more than 15,
been a drive away from each other and.
Other than the occasional call
during the year, we never talk.
Yeah.
Why don't we get together,
you know, and hang out.
No one makes the call, no one decides.
They like, well, no, we're busy
or anything like that, but I
guarantee, but like, why, why
can't, why can't we do that?
But I guarantee if you did reach
out and call, they wouldn't
say, they wouldn't say no.
No.
Like, so it, it got me, like, and
then that got me and it got me
kind of thinking like, why, why
can't we do this kind of stuff?
And, um, during the, like the, my
partner, you know, God bless her with like
that, she, uh, uh, I say I'm not really
religious, but I'm saying God bless her.
Yeah.
Because, uh, she, she's not
oblivious or anything like that.
She knew I was going through a tough
time and like that, but she didn't
quite know how, how to deal with it.
And something that like, that shakes
me into my core today is that she
told me that, uh, lemme turn up a
little bit here, but she told me.
Yeah, I know you're going through
a hard time and every time you
would go back in the house after
we went out to the cart mm-hmm.
And were in there for a couple minutes,
I was, I was terrified I'd walk in
and you would be no longer with us.
Yep.
I wasn't suicidal at this
point, at this time around.
I can say that for a fact.
I, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna kill myself.
I was just going through a deep
depression and it got me, and I started,
you know, researching a bit more.
And it's like, well, I, I ran into one
of the, my buddies that said that one
of the trade shows, 'cause he was also
there and we were just kind of talking
and I said, well, you know, how you doing?
He's like, oh, I'm good.
You know, like the girls and this,
and Karen's like this and my friends.
I'm like, cool, but how
are, how are you doing man?
Right.
I'm fine.
Cool.
How are you doing?
Mm-hmm.
And he is like,
um, kind of kinda lonely, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's hang out, man.
I, so am I. Let's go, let's
go to the range someday.
Yeah,
right.
I'm a member at like three
different ranges or like that.
Let's go shooting.
We used to do it a all
the time in the army.
Why can't we do it now?
Or like that, right.
You got some cool
guns too.
Yeah, well, well there's
that too, like that.
But yeah, the guns, I can still use on
the range as well, but I'm like, why can't
we, why can't, why can't we do this now?
Just 'cause we have kids doesn't mean
we can't hang out anymore like that.
We can't hang, let's go hang out together.
And it just got me kind of thinking.
There's lots of different groups
out there, and this is, I wanna
preface this by saying this is not,
you know, at any point, bringing
down mothers, women, our wives, our
partners, and like that they need
support just as much as anyone else's.
But
you know, like you hear, I, you, you see
like, there's lots of groups out there,
uh, mommies and me and uh, mommy and me
groups and stuff like that, and where
they all get together and they hang
out with their kids, but, and I see.
I, I've taken my kid to gymnastics.
I've taken to swimming lessons.
There's more and more fathers are more
and more involved in their child's
lives than they ever have been before.
Oh yeah.
Historically, huge.
A generation.
But there's no father and me hangouts,
father, toddler hangouts are like that.
Like we don't get together and do that.
We take our kids to the thing, we are
involved in their lives or like that.
And then when everything goes to
sleep, we're kind of left our own
devices and everyone's gonna say,
Hey, he, he's being quiet downstairs.
He's relaxing, he is gonna go work,
or, or he is gonna go out and, you
know, mow the lawn or work out or work
on his car, or something like that.
Like the, the typical stereotypical, you
know, bullshit, whatever it is like that.
But why can't we, you know, form
support groups for ourselves as, as
men, and acknowledge the fact that
being a father is a, despite all the
great things, it is being a father and
a partner, it is lonely as hell, man.
It really can be.
Yeah.
Well
it depends on how it's approached.
Yep.
Um, I think it's lonely quite often
because we make it lonely for ourselves.
We do.
Absolutely.
Some people don't have a relationship with
a partner that is their force multiplier.
Yeah.
Uh, I think putting that time
in ahead of time to find a force
multiplier that you can work with
at both of you guys together Yeah.
Is gonna be ma massive.
A lot of people, they
don't, they don't have that.
When I, uh, uh, look at different
friend groups, I've, I've made a few
notes as you're talking through here.
Yeah.
And
I just wanna say like, you know, 'cause
again, I know my wife's gonna listen
to this and Annie, like, she is my,
my solid rock with like that real,
like, we, she's the the best person.
I want.
The fact that she can identify
these things and.
It, it doesn't make it any less of a
thing that sometimes I just feel like I'm
by myself in certain things like that.
And it's not, nothing that she has
done or not done has caused that.
It's just Well, we do it to ourselves.
Yeah, we do as this man, we a hundred
percent.
And, uh, and there's, okay, so have
you seen, I think it was Saturday Night
Live, they did this skit and there's a
group of guys and they're all hanging
out together and there's one of the guys,
he is like, well, I guess I gotta go.
And they all call, start calling
him names and throwing stuff at him.
Yeah, yeah.
You're the worst and blah, blah, blah.
And like, just really get mad.
And the second the guy leaves,
they're like, man, I love that guy.
Yeah.
He, he's my reason for living.
I, and, and they just ask.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They do the same thing again.
Group of women.
And this woman was
like, oh, I gotta leave.
And they're like, oh, I'm so
soon, we don't wanna see you go.
The second she's out
the door, they're like.
Okay.
Now that she's gone, can
we really talk about that?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And but you know, it's funny
because it's, it's true.
There, there are these little boundaries
in these, uh, games that we play.
And as guys, sometimes people think that
what's happening when everyone's making
fun of 'em or calling names or saying
these things isn't because they, they
think, well, maybe that's how they feel.
Yeah.
Because they don't see what's
happening behind closed doors.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, there's a, there's
a, uh, I remember there was a class
I thing where it's, uh, like a, a,
a guy, a guy who was an army guy's
gonna go visit his buddy, his buddy in
the hospital who was hurt, you know,
in the line of duty or like that.
And he walks in, what's up, dipshit?
You know?
Yeah.
You can't believe you got outta
that one or like that, you know,
you really had to blah, blah, blah.
Just ripping on each other.
Yeah.
And then like, and the nurse walks in.
Who is that?
Oh, it's my best friend.
Yeah.
And it's, it's true.
But we are.
Harsher on each other.
Like, 'cause that's just like, that's,
I guess that's what we, who we are.
Like it's just, it is.
And a lot of people didn't have
a proper role model growing up.
No.
As to how to, how to interact properly.
Yeah.
And so, uh, when you, and
I'm just kind of Yeah.
Putting a few notes.
'cause I think you raised
some really good things.
So when we talk about social media and
you know, how, how you can start feeding
into all of these things, there is that
other side and it's all about perspective.
The second that perspective
shift happens mm-hmm.
Um, things get better, right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And, and that's where talk docs come
in because they can say, well, yeah,
you're looking at it like this.
Like a friend of mine, he is,
uh, his father recently passed
away and he's finding that he's
getting frustrated at work.
He holds a, uh, high.
Level job in a leadership
position with the government.
And anyways, he is like, I don't have
time for this, and my family don't have
time for, and I'm getting frustrated.
And the doc's like, well, do you think
maybe this is how you process grief?
Oh, didn't see it like that.
Yeah.
All of a sudden.
Okay, fair enough.
Different way of looking at it.
Same way with your wife.
I wasn't sure you'd be with
us when you went out to the
vehicle and you came back again.
You probably didn't realize
at that time that that's what
was going through her head.
And the, so Viktor Frankl, man, searcher,
meaning writes a book and he had a, uh,
a guy come in and he's like, you know,
my wife died and it's an older fellow.
And he says, I, I have no
reason for living anymore.
And, and, uh, Victor Father, modern
logo therapy says, uh, okay, well
what would've happened if your wife.
If you died first, would you like
to see your wife take her life?
Well, no.
Like, would you like to see her be happy?
Yeah.
Well, maybe you spared her this
grief that you're going through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's about fi about
finding meaning in life.
Yeah.
Through, through adversity.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's, man, I don't want my
wife or my loved ones to feel that way.
Okay, maybe I gotta start
addressing how I'm looking at this.
Does that mean I change my diet?
Or I talk to someone or I reach out,
or we have this conversation because,
um, now I've got a little bit more
purpose in a way to approach it.
So I, I thought that was an
interesting thing just to,
yeah.
And, and you said something earlier is
that, you know, we don't, we necessarily.
Our generation over hasn't had necessarily
that role model to teach us like,
it's okay to be vulnerable as a man.
Right.
That in fact, you should be, I,
I was never, I can honestly tell
you I was never taught that.
No.
Because if you showed
any emotion, you're weak.
You're weak.
That's right.
Like, what are you, uh, like what are
you girl, I know what you're gonna say.
You, you did, you want me to go get
you a dress for your, you know, like,
like, like, like that's the way we
were kind of raised with like that.
And now that I have, you know,
my son and stuff like that, it's
how do you, you know, now kinda
about, okay, how do I break that?
How do you show healthy emotion?
Yeah.
How do you
show working through things in a
way that they can then emulate?
Yeah.
Because you've never had that emulated
for you.
Yeah.
And you know, I'm, I'm thinking,
okay, like I have to be able to,
you have to be able to show emotion.
I have to be able to show vulnerability,
especially to your, you know, to, like
I was always told, the only person
you ever become vulnerable to is your
partner, your wife, and even then.
Do it cautiously.
Yeah.
Right.
You don't want to use against yet.
Yeah.
And so you gotta be able to
show your, you know, your, our,
you know, our, our children.
It's okay to be vulnerable.
It's also okay to be strong.
And some of the, some of the
strongest thing you ever do is to be
vulnerable to someone with like that.
Uh, but also, you know, with the, you
see, I see it on, you know, with all
this whole thing with, again, social
media going back to like, how do we get
'em also into loving the outdoors again?
Hmm.
Loving the, you know, going out, loving,
you know, being camp, you know, go
camping, go like, get away from your
phones and start living life again or
like that, um, in that environment.
And what can we learn from, you
know, being in nature and stuff
like that, that is healthy not
only for your mental health, but
also for your own physical health.
And, uh, I, I take that back to
what I was saying with my buddy.
Like, Hey, let's go, let's,
let's go to the range some day.
Uh, you know, there is a mental
health aspect that's positive well,
to hunting, being outdoors, and
the whole firearms committee, which
is never addressed, is that this
actually can be a positive thing.
It actually, uh, for many people it can
be a source of bonding for some of us or
like that, that, have you heard of the
Men's Shed Society in Australia?
No.
Okay.
So, uh, it started in Australia.
I think it's in a number
of other countries now.
It's probably in North America.
But, um, some bright individuals over
there looked at it and said, women will
talk about their problems face to face.
They'll sit down and say
he's, here's what's going on.
Men, they don't do that.
They don't feel comfortable doing
that, but they will talk shoulder
to shoulder, and so you're at
the range, shoulder to shoulder.
The Men's Shed Society was.
Okay, we've got a lawnmower.
We have to rebuild.
Hey, you've got a belt grinder, you've
got a socket set, you've got this.
Let's do this project.
And the men get together
and they work on a project.
They're not there to talk
about their problems.
They're not there to vent about things.
It's not a therapy session, but you
know what men are gonna end up doing?
Little things will come up.
Oh, you know, I had a
rough time the other day.
My kid was doing this.
I didn't know how to, someone else
says, oh yeah, I had the same thing.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's, it goes back to that
Harvard study, 80 years followed,
uh, people from all different, uh,
ethnicities, backgrounds, religions,
genders, all the rest for 80
years, longest study on happiness.
And the number one predictor of
happiness that they found was
having strong social connections.
Yeah.
And that's one of the first
things that starts to go out the.
Door when depression kicks in.
Yep.
Because mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.
You'll self isolate.
Yep.
You have kids.
Okay.
My, my priority's a
hundred percent my kid.
And I, and I did that.
I went and I looked and I said,
okay, if I'm gonna have kids, I
made this decision ahead of time.
My life's over and I'm gonna
give everything I have to my kid.
And it took me a long time to realize
that's not the proper approach.
Yeah.
Because if I'm not looking after myself
properly, I'm not given a hundred percent.
Well, it's
like if, if I there, you know, there was
a, and to this day to a point, I still
do if I decide, hey, I know I usually I
take him to gymnastics on Saturday morning
or like that, but I really want to go
and visit a buddy who is in town for.
You know, the weekend.
Mm.
Can I go do, and I, so I asked
my wife, can I go do that?
Like, just outta courtesy, I'm gonna, I'm
not gonna be like, I'm gonna go do this.
It's your problem now.
Like, no, you're a team, but
we're a team, so can I go do that?
And she's like, absolutely.
And then I immediately feel guilty
because I should be taking my son.
Like why, how dare I decide to
put myself first or like that?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I should be, I should be
here for my son or like that.
And he doesn't understand
why, why Even right now my,
he's back, I'm here for work.
Hmm.
I had no, there was no choice.
I had to come here for work or like that.
I had to come up to bc
It was a trade show.
We knew about it months in advance or
like that we knew this was happening.
We knew this was happening last year.
'cause we, we bought our booth space
last year when it was in Halifax.
Yeah.
For the Victoria show.
And on my, on the flight out
here, I felt guilty leaving.
Be even though, because why?
Why did I feel that way?
Because I'm not my prioritizing
my son at that point.
I'm, I prioritizing my wife.
I am, I'm prioritizing my job.
But when you start looking at the reality
of it, when you take that different
perspective, it's like, what kind of
person would I be if I didn't leave home?
If all I'm doing is spending that time?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My kid would be sick of me.
I wouldn't be my best self.
I need to be able to have
these different things.
And that took me a while
to figure out
too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know,
so I'm, and, and another thing like,
you know, that, uh, I learned from my
previous, you know, journeys through this,
uh, through, uh, PTSD and depression, is
that another thing that I think needs to
be, you know, definitely addressed and
understood, especially, you know, amongst
the, the, this community like that is
that it's okay to sometimes be depressed.
Yeah.
It's nor it's, it's normal.
It's a part of it.
It's part of it.
Yeah.
You're gonna be depressed.
Um, it's okay.
Yeah.
Don't think of it as that
I've, I'm, I failed again.
Or like that like, 'cause I, that, that
definitely was going through my head
is that how could I, you know, I, I've
worked so hard for a decade to get out
of this PTSD, you know, thing like that.
And now I'm here again.
And like that, how, even knowing full
well it's chronic, it doesn't go away.
It may wear its ugly head.
This is all this, all this, I
all knew this ahead of time.
Mm. And yet it still felt like a failure
when I was going through like the
really, when it's starting to really
sink down deep into it like that.
And it had to pull myself
back out of it again.
But understand that, no, it's, it's.
This is fine.
You're gonna be depressed
every once in a while.
Like that.
It's,
well, if you look at a physical
injury, we didn't choose, most
people don't choose to break an arm.
Most people don't choose to to be injured.
But you realize, man, that sucked.
Yeah.
Okay, well, I guess I'm not gonna be
able to use that arm for a little bit.
I'm gonna modify how I work for the next
little bit, and in a certain amount of
time it's gonna be better and I should
have a hundred percent functionality
back by this time, or X percent
functionality back by whatever time.
There's a roadmap in place and people
understand that and they appreciate
it and they expect it, but with the
emotional, psychological type things,
there isn't any visible indicator.
And I don't know why people don't
take the same approach as, oh, okay.
Indicators are here.
I feel it.
I can see it.
Right.
It's not like I've got a big sign
out that everyone else can see it.
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe not.
Like, depending on where someone's
at, but there's a process here.
I'm gonna set my tent up, I'm
gonna get find some shelter.
I'm going to take these, I'm gonna
cook up some food and make myself Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And you know what's gonna
happen in a little bit.
I'm gonna start feeling better
and the sun's gonna come out.
Yeah.
I, I can, well, sure.
I can sell, tell you that
from personal experience.
Okay.
You just said you break your arm.
Yeah.
You know what?
That, you know what?
That, that cast does everything like that.
That's a cool story.
Mm-hmm.
You're not doing so well in your head.
There's shame there.
Nobody wants to talk about that one.
No.
Right.
There's there's no cool story there.
Anything like that I can tell
you because I literally built
a, a, a, a slight career off it.
My story about how I got my PTSD and my
journey, my, the story of how I got it.
It's, it's, it's fun.
It's cool.
I mean, I deployed overseas.
I got to do really cool
things with the military.
That's cool.
Yeah.
The story, how I climb myself out of it.
That's a cool, that's
a fucking cool story.
And I'm happy to tell
that to people like that.
And people look at me, they're like,
when they hear what, what I did to
get there, they're like, damn man.
Like that.
Like, not every, that's a
really cool thing like that.
So it's, it's way cooler than
any bone I've ever broken.
And as you said, I've broken, I've
broken my, a fair share of bones last.
I'm like, that's cooler than
any bones I've ever broken.
Like I tell the story about, well,
I, I heal my body after, like
that, that was the easy part.
Mm. Healing my, my head after.
That took years and like that
and real struggle, but here's
what I did to do it like that.
How many times can you tell this
story without it wearing a bit of
a rut into that emotional side?
It, you know what, it definitely does.
Um, and that's one of the reasons why
I kind of pulled back from doing some
of the veteran's advocacy because I
realized that I kind of felt like my
story was no longer becoming my story.
It just was becoming a sales pitch.
Uh, and then so now then, but now I
then had to look at it again and saw,
well, now I get to reclaim my story.
It's no longer just a sales
pitch to try to, you know, raise
awareness and funding for veterans.
It can be, this is a story that should
inspire other people who are potentially
at a, a pretty dark part of their
lives and like that, that it's, you
know, you can come out of it and you
could be the person telling this to
someone who finds it really inspiring.
So, so
are you able to spot it in others?
Are you finding it a little bit
more in tuned to see other people
or do you maybe projecting or.
I,
I, you know what I, I want to
say I, I, I, I think I can.
Mm. But, uh, when I lost my buddy
this past year or anything like that,
that one, that one really shook me.
'cause looking back now, I'm like, damn.
The signs were there, but you didn't see.
Yeah.
What were the signs
he was, you know, it was just one
of those things, and I'm not gonna
mention names outta respect for the
family, but it was one of those, uh,
every time I was in town, he, we didn't
live in the same town as each other.
We were hours away.
But every that time was in, I was coming
up, he was always like, Hey, let's you
know if you have time, let's hang out.
Not, Hey buddy, let's hang out.
Like the way he used to, like, let's
just hang, let's go get some beers.
Let's have a great time with that day.
It was more, if you have time.
Kind of cau a little, a little cautious
little, you know, like, not if you
have time, kinda looking back it was
like, if you have time for me mm-hmm.
Was the full kind of sentence.
I, you know, you kind of could
infer there, uh, just wasn't
quite as responsive to as, as
what he used to be with like that.
Still fun.
Mm. Still like, I've known this
guy since day one in the Army.
We literally left on the bus together to
bootcamp to, to our, our basic, um, and
right from day one, cracking jokes and
just, you know, a fun loving guy or like
that we, we didn't, we didn't deploy it.
He didn't, we didn't deploy together.
He never actually deployed, but uh, we
fold each, you know, we were, we were, you
know, turn, you know, star skiing hutch
for most of the trade or like that, right.
It's like if he was getting
in trouble, I was pretty much
beside him for most of the time.
Right.
Um, and so just this
fun loving, great guy.
Always there to be a helpful hand,
everybody, and looking back as just
kinda like, was he in the end there?
Was he more trying to be a helpful
hand as kind of a way to reach out,
just see if he could get some help and,
uh, I just, I, I, I regret not, you
know, it's hard to live, it's hard.
You always say like, don't
live, don't blame yourself,
and you don't do with regrets.
But it's, it's, I regret not maybe
trying to be there a little more
form or trying to make more time
in order to try to, you know, uh,
hang with them when I wasn't town.
And, uh, so it, it's, it's difficult.
Uh, the ones that you can see the
signs on are they're being obvious.
They're, they're, they're, it's really,
it's unlikely they're gonna, they're at
a risk of actually taking their lives.
That's what I've seen.
That's what the ones that are.
They can hide it really well.
Mm-hmm.
Are the ones that you're gonna be at
a funeral atd and you're like, and
you're asking, holy shit, this sucks.
You ever hear the poem Richard Corey?
No.
Uh, Edwin Arlington Robinson, I
think was, uh, the guy's name.
He, I don't think he had a, uh, a
name for the first, I think year
or two of his life until um, um,
I guess his parents or someplace.
And they, they threw names
into a, a hat and someone out
there at a hotel or something.
He said, your kid should have a name.
And anyways, he came up with Edwin,
I guess a guy was from Arlington,
so that was his middle, middle name.
But he wrote a poem called Richard Corey.
And I said, um, I'll see
if I can remember it.
Um.
Whenever Richard Corey went to town
with people on the pavement, looked
at him, he was a gentleman from sold
a crown clean, favored and imper slim.
And he was always quietly iray and
he was always human when he talked,
but still he fluttered pulses.
When he said good morning and he glittered
when he walked and he was rich, asked
Richard that a king and admirably,
schooled in every grace and fine.
We thought him to be everything to
make us wish we were in his place
and on We work and went without
the meat and cursed the bread.
And Richard Corey went calm
summers night, went home and
put a bullet through his head.
And that poem was always
kind of stuck with me.
And it's the Richard Coreys
that you have to Yeah.
Watch out for.
Yeah.
As I said, uh, 10% of the population,
no matter how little the injury is.
You can't save them.
It's the 10 and 10%.
No matter how horrific or traumatic
they're gonna be better in spite of it.
They're, they're,
they're just gonna be smiling through
it and they're, they're gonna survive
anything that throws their way.
Mm. It's that 80% in between Mm.
Uh, that we really have to strive
to really work to try to save.
Um, and I learned that is that, you
know, I, unfortunately, the, you know,
this is not the only two friends I've
lost to two this, you know, to suicide.
Uh, this is not the only, you know.
There's been others before I hit my
last podcast or anything like that.
I've also lost another, another
buddy with the two like that.
And every one of 'em hurts.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you question, you know, I, I've
learned not to question it anymore of
like, what, what could I have done to fix
it or anything like that, because probably
nothing realistically, if they really
wanted to do it, they're gonna do it.
It's not for you to fix.
No.
There's nothing that you can fix.
You can't take an alcoholic
and make them sober.
No, you're right.
You can't take a drug addict, but you
can't take a depressed person and ta-da.
Yeah.
It made you laugh.
Now you're better.
Right.
But you definitely, I think
it's this as a group as a whole.
Mm-hmm.
As, as men, we need to do better than,
and you hear this multiple podcasts.
You hear this and I, I listen to
podcasts all the time where they're
like, men need to be better.
Yeah.
What does better look
like?
What does better look like?
What does, what does better mean?
Anything like that?
Do we be better to each other?
No, because you know what I, I, I
what we were talking earlier about,
uh oh, like, you know what's up?
You know, you know, you
call each other names.
You like that, that.
Does have a place, there is some
sort of bonding there like that.
I think that actually that's important.
'cause it kind of is part of our, our
If it's done, done in good spirit.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, it does actually have a place
and it makes you kind of feel a
little comradery there like that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I still call, you know, guys
I've seen the years and in the Army I
see him again and I'm like, what's up?
You know, like, yeah.
Dumb ass.
You dumb ass.
Or remember that time you, you
know, you did this or like that.
You share funny stories
and stuff like that.
Right.
There is value to that.
But, um, so recently, uh, I, I, uh,
this, this guy, I know he went up on
a camping trip, boys, boys weekend.
What do you think is gonna happen on
a boys' weekend, on a camping trip?
Shenanigans drinking.
Sure.
Maybe some golfing.
Sure.
Hopefully no one, you know,
you know, gets burned by a
firecracker or something like that.
But Shena shenanigans is a good way.
Like, uh, Tom Foolery had shenanigans.
Yeah.
And all of this was
happening or like that.
And, uh, I, I, I took my son to go,
uh, meet some of his family members
and like that, and they were at
like this house at a pool party.
And then one of, one of the, the, the
guy that I know, or like that, this
friend of mine, he was married to
one of the, the girls and like that.
So it was me and my son and, uh, and
a and a bunch of, and my wife and
some of her cousins are like that.
And all of them were girls and they're
all, I was doing the barbecuing.
Mm-hmm.
Because they asked me, I was like, okay.
And then we were all having dinner and
one of the girls said, yeah, he is up
there, he is having a, you know, a,
a, a great cabin weekend or like that.
He's hanging out with his,
with his brother, with his,
with his, with his boys.
They're like, oh, I wonder what's gonna
be happening up there, blah, blah.
And then she's like, yeah.
And they're, they're all gonna sit
around a, the campfire and tell each
other what they love about each other.
Hmm.
And I was like, oh man, that'd be amazing.
No kidding.
That'd be, and all the, all
the, the women at the table were
just like, yeah, they're shot.
Yeah.
Because, and I, and what took me
back was, why are they shocked?
Because they're, we, they
also know what this isn't.
This is not manly behavior according to
what we've been led to be grown up and
believe or like that meanwhile, that that
was probably more therapeutic for anyone.
Those, if one of those guys was going
through something at that, that moment
or like that probably would've been
more therapeutic and more helpful.
Mm-hmm.
But,
and everyone's like, my
God, that's so progressive.
And I'm like, that it
shouldn't be progressive.
It should be the norm.
I'm
wondering when it's stopping being
the norm because I, you know, I
remember, uh, podcast I did with EB
Levo, ex-head of BC's, ERT mm-hmm.
For, um, division and, uh, black
Belt, jiujitsu, martial artist, super
Fit, uh, Mr. Tactical, all the rest.
And, uh, he is done his research
on, uh, different cultures and the
warrior culture, and he's a big
advocate for, uh, having a strong
heart and strong mind and Yep.
Uh, to accompany everything.
And, um, you know, you, for a long
time, you look at like, let's say
Canadian military, if you're strong,
that means you, you're physically
strong and you can keep pushing.
Yeah.
And then you don't complain.
Right.
And, and I was like, um, you know, I,
I gotta wonder, uh, why people haven't.
Been incorporating the, uh, the
psychological and the emotional
and the spiritual side to all this.
And he says, you have to ask yourself
the question why they stopped, because
that used to be a regular part of how
society worked, and your warriors were
gonna go out and they're gonna fight.
But they also had, uh, faith,
spirituality, uh, like they, they
had these other pillars to be
able to help support resilience.
And we, I guess in humanity got
really, or at least in North America,
it got really lopsided on one side
of what we considered to be strength.
And I see that changing.
And it's an asset change.
Yeah.
It's changing because of these statistics.
It's changing because
it's, it's untenable.
It doesn't sustain itself
over the long term.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, and I agree with you is that,
you know, when I, when I first did, when
I joined the Army, it was very much a
kind of like, as you said, strength was.
You're physically strong, you can ruck
marks forever, everything like that.
You can, you can just take it and come
out the other side or something like that.
Yep.
You, but nothing was a, you know, and
then again, and if it wasn't, you'd
be called all sorts of different
names and like, that you're weak.
You're, you know, you're, you're, you're
not fit to be, you know, in the, in, in,
in, you know, like things like, you're
not fit to be nothing in the army.
You're not fit to, you know, be, you know,
like, uh, in this, wearing this uniform,
in this service and stuff like that.
And there, there's a
time and place for that.
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
But, but those are
typically tests.
Those aren't tests.
Right.
But not everybody knows it's a test.
Nobody knows why they do it.
They see other people do
it and they buy into it.
Yeah.
And some people take it too far.
Yeah.
But there, those are typically a
test to see, are you gonna belong?
Yeah.
Are are you gonna be beside
us when we really need it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's it.
Right.
But, but a hu you know, I, I would say the
strongest thing I've ever done is admit
that I got a problem and I need help.
Mm-hmm.
And no one, you know, no one I was,
that I knew me at the time that I
was aware of judged me for, for that.
And so that's the, you know, that's
something we, we definitely need to still
keep stressing to the, the population.
And I, I'm focusing on men here.
I think that because it's my own
experience, I, I can't speak to what
a woman feels like or what she feels
during depression or like that.
I'm sure it's not that dissimilar.
They need help just as
much as we do or like that.
But, um, there's a reason why eight out
of 10 suicides are committed by men.
And typically men's suicide attempts
have a greater level of finality Yeah.
Than women's suicide
attempt.
Yeah.
So like, and as a, you know, we just, we
need, we need to do better as a society.
And I'm trying to think, you
know, I'm trying to think of,
okay, how can me and my role.
As manager of defense law enforcement,
uh, and as, as a manager, and as you
say, like a bit of a industry leader
within the firearms committee mm-hmm.
How can we incorporate this into
somehow helping that in a responsible,
safe, and effective manner?
And we've heard of, you know,
there's groups out there that
want to run hunting, you know, pay
basically guided hunting trips for
veterans with PTSD veteran hunters.
Yeah.
Veteran hunters, Todd, he, um, there's
always that little kind of like,
unfortunately that Chris, Kyle mm-hmm.
Incident that like, sure, if
we do this, that could happen.
Well, you, you go to any range
that could happen or like that.
So I, I get it As a, as a, as an
organization, especially as a charity
that wants to support something like
that, they have to be very, very
careful about the potential liability
like that, about something about.
But I can honestly say that, that, that
a case of that is so few and far between.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it's.
Veteran hunters vent.
Like also like how can we get conservation
groups maybe involved or like that,
how could we get potentially even the
government, like Park Parks Canada
organization or like that involved in
supporting not just veterans and first
responders, but now men as a whole.
Mm. Running,
we were talking like, uh,
my, my son's at summer camp.
My son goes to, why can't we have adult
summer camps for, for, for, for men for
like, you know, a week where we go away
to a summer camp just to be a kid again.
Everyth like that.
Mm-hmm.
That'd be amazing.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
Right.
Like
you're on the zip line again.
When I was, uh, when I was, you know, when
I was 14 years old or like that, there's
a, uh, place in, in Ontario up in Al Park
called SOES or Kearney, and you go there,
you go there for the summer and I mean,
it's a full like four, five week program
or like that, but you go there and you've
been going there for a couple years as,
as you know, as a kid or like that, but
my final year there when I was 14, it was.
Two weeks at the thing learning,
you know, learning portaging
swimming and something like that.
And then you did a two week
portage through Algonquin Park.
Cool.
Right.
One of the, one of the most
memorable experiences of my life,
or like that, uh, I mean, I've had
some pretty good ones like that.
Yeah.
But, you know, waking up every
morning going canoeing and like that.
So Cool.
And, uh, oh, and you know, it
helped the fact that I was 14.
I got my very first kiss there
on my birthday of all things,
like, it's a birthday present.
Oh yeah.
It was like, it was, it was
great Or like that, but, uh,
dumb that down to a little bit.
Why can't we do that now?
Or like that, like we can, I, I
mean, we can't because we have,
we're like, no, we have priorities.
Well, I, I need to look after my son.
I need to look after my wife.
I need to make sure the groceries are,
I need to make sure the bills are paid.
I need to, but what's the harm, as
you said, if I take a week or even
a couple days and not have, and
not, not worry about that, I. If
you have a partner that's a rock.
Mm. My, you know, I, I traditionally would
always do all the meal prep and stuff
like that before I go away on a trip.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't do that this time around.
You know why?
Because I looked at my wife and
I said, you have, you got this?
And she's like, 86.
She's like, hell yeah, I do.
Yeah.
And she, I know she does.
Mm-hmm.
I needed to, to understand, I need,
I needed to accept the fact that
she can handle this without, for
a couple days without me there.
It's amazing how capable we all are.
Yeah.
I mean, I need
to, I need to understand that
my son will be okay if I'm not
gonna be there for a couple days.
And like that he has supports.
Now, not everyone is in that situation.
There is people out there that
don't necessarily have that.
And I, and I get that it's not gonna
be a solution for everybody, but how
can we incorporate our community, not
only to try to better our community and
better speak for our community within
the groups and at for advocacy, but
how can we also potentially be involved
in a greater hole in proving society?
Hmm.
We should, uh, talk offline here
because I know a fellow who's, uh,
been looking at something very similar
to what you're talking about here.
And I think, uh, um,
I'll reach out to him.
Yeah.
And, uh, he's talking about a, um,
some, something that was very successful
when I was, and I think they still
exist, but I'm not, I'm not sure.
But, uh, what were they called?
Uh, outdoors Canada or
something like that.
But, uh, they, they ran, it started out
here actually in bc um, and it's what
I went through, but before I went on my
climbing Nepal, they did climbing tours.
It's like climbing trips
for veterans with PTHD.
Okay.
Okay.
And they eventually branched out across
Canada, so now they do, like on the East
Coast, they do like kayaking trips into
the Bay of Fundee and stuff like that.
Hmm.
And they do, uh, in Ontario they
do Portaging and you know, I go
in Alka Park or There you go.
Uh, you do hiking up in
like an Outward Bound.
Yeah.
Outward Bound.
That was it.
Outward Bound.
And, uh, but it was specifically
fo kind of focus more towards
veterans and first responders.
But why, why couldn't we expand
that to society as a whole?
Mm-hmm.
It honestly is benefit.
We know the benefits.
It obviously was super beneficial to
the veteran community that was suffering
from mental health, but I can tell you
it's just a small segment of we know how
much there is maybe a, maybe a higher.
Cases of PTSD amongst at the time
coming out of Afghanistan amongst
the veteran community of with p with,
with, with, uh, postex disorder.
Due to the nature of
what it, it was a combat.
It was 10 years.
PSD
is still trying to, no one
knows no really what PTSD is.
They got ideas about it.
They got, but even the last DSM
has changed how they approach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they, I think they added complex
P-T-S-D-C-P-T-S-D and, but it doesn't even
have to be PTSD, just simple
depression or like that.
Right.
It can be, it can be debilitating
or anything like that.
It doesn't need, doesn't
really even need a label.
It doesn't need to have a
label and it doesn't need to be
caused by trauma necessarily.
Right.
So my second bout of my, my bout of
depression or happened last year,
had nothing to do with trauma.
It is cumulative though.
It is.
No, it is, but like it, but it wasn't a
singular point of trauma that caused that.
Right.
Whereas in before, when I had
my p it was a PSD, my P was
caused by a singular incident.
In my case, it doesn't always have to
happen that way, but when I was going,
like the, my, my blast bit of depression
was caused by many different factors
that were not that, or like that.
It was, it was a cumulative of, you
know, effort of kind of feeling I
was losing my who I was and who am
I gonna be as a person or like that.
But you know, I think as a whole,
like, you know, uh, how do we better
ourselves as firearm owners and as
firearms community, we have to be able
to become pillars of the community.
Well, maybe we put that question out to
the audience as well, and if people have
had similar experiences, if they've.
Had experiences that have led
to a positive outcome, that
things have worked well for them.
I'd love to hear about it in the comments.
Yeah, me too.
I would.
And if there are groups like the Mens
She Society or like, uh, adult, uh,
uh, camp sort of thing that they've
found value from that, uh, that
have worked well, I'd love to see.
Yeah, I mean, I think that would
be a really, and you know, as well,
if there's within the firearms
community, if there are actual
endeavors that are going forward.
So I know Todd Eey has
got the veteran hunters.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
He's helped with that of Alberta.
I think it's spread across Canada.
Um, but not everyone's gonna be a veteran.
No.
And not everyone's gonna
be a first responder.
No.
But it doesn't mean we can't
have these same conversations.
I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a veteran.
Um, I know, I, but I'm also, that
was, I'm, I'm a veteran, I'm a, you
know, a former soldier, but I'm also
now a, I'm a spouse and a father.
Mm-hmm.
And the, and you know, and.
Someone who works as a, you know,
a business manager like that.
Right.
That's who I, that's who I am now.
I don't It's what you do.
Yeah.
It's what I do.
But I don't, people think, well,
you're a veteran or like that.
But that's, that's a, that's,
that's, that's what you did.
That's what I did.
Yeah.
That doesn't mark who I am
now or anything like that.
And my current stresses and my current
life, who I am now or like that.
But now does that make me, you know,
does that mean I'm, you know, like I
now need something that's maybe a little
more, you know, attuned to who I am.
But I know people who even served in the
military, but because they didn't deploy,
they don't consider themselves a veteran.
So they don't apply for the programs.
Hmm.
Does there are no less of, their
service was no less than mine.
Just 'cause I got, I was talking
to a guy just recently, uh, he was,
we run a, so a quick, quick plug.
Sure.
Uh, our so breaded defense technologies,
we do run a, uh, individual officer.
Officer, I say that, but an Indi Digital
Officer Discount purchase program.
Okay.
So if you were current or ex-serving
mil Canadian farm forces of any
branch, uh, law enforcement or first
responder, you can contact myself
or I have now have a new associate.
I finally have some help.
After nine years, uh, I have a associate
underneath me and you can purchase
firearms, optics, uh, anything with done
are supported brands at a discounted rate.
Fantastic.
And f We do this, we do this
as a thank you for what?
For your service, because no matter,
but the Kia, that is your service.
Mm-hmm.
I just recently talked to a guy who
got back from Latvia, and when he found
out I was, 'cause I was just kind of,
you know, ask, you know, asking how
it was, and I kind of, he was like,
oh, it's a little weird coming back.
And I explained, yeah.
It was weird for me when I first came back
from Afghanistan too, and instantly, once
he heard I had been to Afghanistan, he
immediately downplayed his tour as it Oh.
It was nothing.
It, like, it was nothing
compared to Afghanistan.
You guys really were it the shit.
And I'm like, first of all, you didn't
know what it did in Afghanistan.
I could have been a
clerk just working Sure.
In Kro, you know, or like, or you know,
I could have been in Dubai or like that.
Yeah.
Like, like not to take anything
from what those people did.
'cause they did excellent jobs.
But you automatically go to,
you serve, you, serve you
automatically go to the thing.
I was in combat every damn day,
which was not, not the case.
Hm.
Dude, you left your home for six
months to serve your country.
To serve your country
with a question mark.
Yep.
People, I've lost friends in training
just as much as I lost friends.
Right.
In, you know, in, in life
situations, in operations overseas.
Um, hurt is hurt.
Dead is dead.
Yeah.
Doesn't matter how it
happened or like that.
And you came back and you served
your country proudly like that.
You should never, I told 'em, you never,
you should never diminish what you did.
Whether you earned a medal, whether you
earned the CD or a sacrifice medal or
the, or the Victoria Cross or like that.
You never should diminish what you did.
'cause service.
Your service is your service.
Yeah.
So just be honest.
If, if.
If you think you could benefit from one of
these programs, it doesn't matter whether
you consider yourself a veteran or not,
like that, everyone else also side does.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter whether like, who,
like, and, but unfortunately as well
there is gonna people within that, in
that group that is gonna maybe look down
on you because, 'cause it's happened
to me where, uh, I, you know, I, my
service was Afghanistan and I've had
guys who surf in Bosnia that for some
reason looked down on my service 'cause
I wasn't in Bosnia earth like that.
Mm-hmm.
We're, again, we're whole, we're horrible
to each other as ve as as veterans
we're horrible to each other as men.
Earth like that.
Sorry, I wasn't
fighting in grade school.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I was, yeah, I was eight years old
when that, when that war happened.
Sorry, I couldn't join
you on that one like that.
Right.
But, uh, but the fact of the matter
is, is that, you know, we never
should have to de to lower ourselves
or diminish our ourselves down
thinking that we we're not worthy of.
Being happy.
Mm-hmm.
And being healthy and being, being,
being present and being just as much as
present in our lives as we are in others.
Something like that.
So, um, I, I, I can't think I
can say it any better than that.
So
I, I was just gonna say, I
really like how you said that.
I,
so, I, I, I like your, I wanna
put it out to the community.
Firearms community, outdoor community.
One, have you had success, you know,
within your own, with your own mental
struggles, something like that.
And finding yourself out of it.
'cause I don't wanna be the only guy
who's yelling from the rooftop or
like, here about my, you know, like
I've been there, I've done that.
I've, as you said, it does put
a little dent in the thing.
I wanna know, have you been able to pull
yourself out through positive means,
either within the firearms in, uh,
committee or with it being outdoors?
And for those of them that are running
those programs or those that'd be
interested in starting a program?
I wanna hear from you as well,
because as you said, there's some
groups out there that do it, but.
You know, we need, we need more
people willing to participate
and more people willing to, to,
you know, facilitate as well.
The
question is out there.
Yeah.
Challenges out there.
Um, let's see what we come back with.
Love it.
David, thank you so much for
coming back much on the podcast.