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Welcome to Sillage and Sorcery, a podcast that explores the enchanting world of perfume through the eyes of two witches who intertwine their craft with the art of perfumery.
In each episode, we center our discussion around a specific ingredient. Bee, the perfumer behind Venus Invictus, delves into the history, discovery, and chemistry of that ingredient. Meanwhile, Melissa, the creative nose behind Sif Sniffs , highlights a well-known perfume that incorporates it, discussing its significance and impact in popular culture. We also have mini-episodes where we interview indie perfumers!
Melissa (00:01)
So I will say, I think I'm becoming desensitized because once again, I came across some fucking crazy racism and I was...
I don't even want to say, I was not surprised. It was just, I was.
mildly plussed.
Bee (00:15)
Well, here we are yet again.
Hey everybody, and welcome back to Sillage and Sorcery, a podcast where two witches uncover the magic and science behind captivating smells. We do deep dives on different perfumes and companies and things. I'm one of your co-hosts, B. Sampson, and I'm joined by my lovely co-host today.
Melissa (00:34)
Thanks.
Melissa Sifjardóttir of Sif Sniffs.
Bee (00:43)
today we are exploring a material that is synonymous with sacredness, but is also at the center of an ecological crisis. Sandalwood.
What is your, just like off the jump, what do you know about sandalwood? Do you love sandalwood? Do you hate sandalwood? Everyone wants a sandalwood scent these days.
Melissa (01:05)
Everyone wants a Sandalwood scent these days, and I think Le Labo has a lot to do with it. Le Labo is not the fragrance of the week, but I will say I think Le Labo has a lot to do with it. ⁓ I put Sandalwood, Amber, and Musk into the category of every single fragrance lists.
Bee (01:18)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (01:25)
these three notes. So I personally feel like people say that they like sandalwood, but they have zero idea what it smells like. They just kind of have seen it repeatedly in scent descriptions.
Bee (01:27)
Yeah.
Exactly. They'll be like, you know, I like a Santal and I'm like, Sandalwood.
so this is a story that spans ancient temples and modern labs, a tale of scents so precious it's known as liquid gold, a tree so over exploited that its very existence in the wild is now threatened. We're going to uncover some of the profound history, the chemistry that makes it smell so good, and the global shift to plantation farming to save this precious resource.
So first of all, let's get into a little bit of the history and folklore. Sandalwood's history is as rich and deep as its scent. The name itself is derived from the Sanskrit word chandana which means wood for burning incense, and is often in concepts of a shining or glowing...
element, which is interesting to think about when you think of Sandalwood. Let's dig a little bit deeper into its spiritual and historical roots. So ancient and sacred roots for over 4,000 years, Sandalwood has been revered. In India, its paste is considered sacred. It's used to anoint deities and Hindu rituals, and it's also used in making paste for bindis.
In Buddhism, sandalwood was believed to calm the mind and open the door to enlightenment. The ancient Egyptians also valued it highly, using it in their embalming rites. Yeah, crazy. Sandalwood's been on the trade route for a very long time. ⁓ This mystic wood is native to parts of Asia, Australia,
Melissa (03:08)
Hell yeah!
Bee (03:14)
The most coveted variety being the Indian Sandalwood, Santalum album specifically from the Mysore region in Karnataka It's been traded for millennia. It's used in Western perfumery, however, began earnest in the 1800s. So we've had Sandalwood for quite some time at this point. Next I wanna get... Not as long as...
Melissa (03:38)
But not as long as other things. Like, I feel like there's
other ingredients that we've used in perfumery in the West that, like, have been around longer. So it's interesting that it's been used for 4,000 years, but only really came to perfumery 200 years ago.
Bee (03:55)
let's dive a little bit into why sandalwood smells so good. Why is it so addicting to people? Well, the magic lies in a complex symphony of molecules, primarily a class of compounds called
sesquiterpenoids The signature smooth, creamy, woody character is primarily due to two key alcohols. α-Santalol This often is the most abundant molecule responsible for the creamy, balsamic, and milky facets of sandalwood. And β-Santalol This molecule contributes the more dry, woody, and slightly sharp characteristics.
Together, the santalols create a perfect balance. The exact ratio, though, is what makes Indian Mysore Sandalwood the gold standard. It's a natural fixative as well. This complex chemical cocktail is also why sandalwood is such a fantastic fixative. These heavy molecules evaporate very slowly, anchoring the entire fragrance and allowing the scent to unfold over many hours. Which I love. I use sandalwood in quite a few of my perfumes.
And I think that it's interesting when you look at the different types of sandalwood essential oil. In some places there are additional compounds in the sandalwood itself. I believe one form of Australian sandalwood has a little bit of fornaceol in it which gives it a more like dry, woody aroma rather than the like creamy balsamic that you get from like Mysore sandalwood.
Melissa (05:26)
That's why I use the Australian version. I'm big into the Australian version, because I feel like it's more representative of what customers are looking for. they want that like woody-woodyness. And at least my customers, really want fucking wood-wood.
Bee (05:29)
⁓
That wood would.
Melissa (05:43)
That one would.
Bee (05:46)
Next, I want to talk a little bit about this endangered essence and the plantation solution. This is going to be a little bit of a sobering part of our journey into Sandalwood, the smell. The very chemistry that makes Sandalwood so incredible has led to severe conservation crises due to over-harvesting. But the story doesn't end there. It's shifting to a new chapter focused on sustainability.
Wild sandalwood populations have been devastated. One study that I read suggested that 175 years of commercial harvesting may have decreased the population of wild Australian sandalwood as much as 90%. With... It
Melissa (06:26)
I did not know this, and that's the one that I use Holy shit!
Bee (06:31)
We're talking about wild naturally occurring sandalwood, right? With climate change preventing new trees from growing, the wild future of sandalwood is fragile. And it's interesting when you think about what climate change has to do with sandalwood. Basically in Australia, sandalwood when it's very young, we're talking like seed to sapling.
it needs three consecutive years of like a lot of rainfall. And because of global warming, that's not happening as much.
the rainfall is not happening as consecutively as that it needs to be without human intervention, right? And then you also have to take into consideration seed dispersal through like natural marsupials in the land and how a lot of wildlife is going extinct too because the land issues.
So what are we doing about wild populations of sandalwood not happening anymore? Well, the answer is plantations. So in India, the traditional heartland, Karnataka, still known as the land of sandalwood, remains the major producer. The famous Mysore sandalwood is still considered one of the finest varieties in the world, though much of it now comes from state-controlled plantations.
There's Tamil Nadu. New plantations have been established here, sometimes with international aid to bolster production and to take pressure off of wild stands. In Kerala, the Marayoor forest in the Idukki district is a protected natural habitat for sandalwood, representing some of the last old growth stands. And then Australia is known as the new global leader.
So in Western Australia, it's home to the world's largest sandalwood plantation resource. In the region of Kununurra Indian sandalwood is grown on a massive commercial scale. These plantations are crucial for supplying the global market with a legal, sustainable, and traceable product. There are also other growing regions. It grows naturally in places like Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and the Pacific Islands.
and small-scale plantations are now being developed in countries like China, the Philippines, and Malaysia. The global shift to plantations is our best hope for ensuring that the sacred scent of sandalwood endures for generations to come without stripping our ancient forests. So, there is hope in large mass scale plantation farming.
Alongside plantations though, the perfume industry has turned to chemistry to recreate this magic. The goal is to replicate the impression of the complex Santalol symphony. Here's a breakdown of some of the most famous synthetic sandalwood molecules. First up, we have
Sandalore. It's a versatile workhorse that provides a woody, creamy base. The idea of Sandalwood in a perfume, if you will. There's Javanol, incredibly powerful and creamy, in tiny amounts to add kind of like a luxurious or rich effect. There's Ebonol, which adds a musky, diffusive depth to Sandalwood accord.
Polysantal provides a powerful, realistic sandalwood heart. But it doesn't end there. There's also Dreamwood, Bactanol, Santalif, and Sandela. And there are a few others after that as well. Perfumers rarely use just one. Oftentimes they'll create a sandalwood base by skillfully blending these synthetics to approximate the multifaceted profile of the natural oil. I know for me personally, I use Javanol,
Ebonyl, Polysantal, Santalift, and Sandella. I have all of those. ⁓
Melissa (10:10)
You're like the whole
list. I'm just doing the list.
Bee (10:14)
Basically got the whole list at this point. Do you use any of those aroma chemicals?
Melissa (10:18)
yeah, Javanol. But Javanol, you can use for so many different purposes. I feel like it's not even just a sandalwood essence. Like, you could just use it to bring creaminess to fucking anything.
Bee (10:30)
To me, Javanol and Ebonol are the two most addictive smelling Sandalwood replacers. And yeah, that's basically it. But before I go and hand things over to you, I do wanna wrap up with a few grainy bits of Sandalwood trivia. So the first synthetic was created by Givaudan
and it was Sandella in 1960. It's a mixture of isometric, terpene cyclohexanols that provide a sandalwood-like odor and continues to be used as an inexpensive replacement for natural sandalwood oil. Sandalwood has a hemi-parasitic nature. It needs to tap its roots into a host plant to survive.
And last but not least, Mahatma Gandhi's funeral pyre was made from sandalwood. It was built with a large pile of sandalwood sticks And this is a tradition that continues to this day with the Gandhis. They're burned on sandalwood.
Melissa (11:29)
And it's such a level of respect too, right? if we're anointing gods with it too, to kind of like continue that tradition with some of the living is pretty, pretty baller.
Bee (11:38)
that's what I have for Sandalwood. And without further ado, I'm gonna hand it over to you to talk about our scent of the week. I'm so excited.
Melissa (11:47)
have you heard of a little company called the California Perfume Company?
Bee (11:52)
California Perfume Company. That doesn't sound familiar. I don't think so.
Melissa (12:00)
You don't, you haven't heard about it? It's the oldest continuously operating direct sales company in the world.
Bee (12:06)
Yeah, I had no clue.
Melissa (12:07)
well, maybe you know what it was turned into. That is Avon.
Bee (12:12)
Avon!
Melissa (12:14)
I absolutely made a reference to your love for the vintage bottles.
So we will dive into its complex history, being both a pioneer and woefully behind the times in some other areas of its existence. in the 1880s, David McConnell Sr. worked as a Yankee peddler selling books door to door. have you heard of Yankee peddlers
Bee (12:38)
No, is that like snake oil salesman?
Melissa (12:41)
So they're not sneak oil salesmen in that they were selling something fake. Some of them were, okay. But they went from town to town with a horse and buggy and they would sell a variety of different items. This was particularly important to people in rural areas that didn't have access to larger places of trade, right?
Bee (13:03)
sense it's like a traveling store right?
Melissa (13:05)
Yep. So if you were looking to get pots and pans or basic toiletries and you lived in bumfuck nowhere, you were looking to a Yankee peddler in order to procure those goods. Ironically enough, Yankee peddlers were so ubiquitous throughout my state of Connecticut that their sale of nutmeg is what gives my state the title of the nutmeg state.
Bee (13:28)
What?
Melissa (13:29)
Fuck yeah, was like, Yankee peddlers are associated with our nickname. the nutmeg state comes from Yankee peddlers. And also people from Connecticut besides just being called Yankees are also called nutmeggers.
Bee (13:36)
That's pretty cool.
Melissa (13:42)
Here we go. Okay. I am a proud nutmegger. Thank you very much. Because Yankee peddlers came and went, right, while many of them were totally legitimate, some were not. If we want to go back to the nutmegs, some Yankee peddlers were accused of selling shaved wood as nutmeg. But some historians
Bee (13:42)
That feels like a slur.
Melissa (14:02)
don't fully believe that that happened because it would have been more expensive to shave wood than to sell nutmeg. Like nutmeg was so cheap at the time that like putting the effort in to shave wood and sell it as nutmeg.
Bee (14:05)
Okay.
That doesn't, yeah, it's not really worth it if it's a cheap ingredient.
Melissa (14:22)
it's like the opposite of getting oregano when you buy a dime bag.
Bee (14:27)
That is something that our generation had to deal with.
Not anymore, now you can just go to a store. Which is crazy.
Melissa (14:33)
And it wasn't even just the products that were scandalous. It was also the salesmen themselves. In fact, the Gideons were a group of door-to-door salesmen who would leave Bibles in the drawers, my Long Island is going to come in, drawers of hotels and boarding houses to remind salesmen that their reputation was key. So every time you go to a hotel and there's a Bible in the drawer, it was...
historically put there by a traveling salesman who was part of the Gideons.
Bee (15:05)
Wow, that's wild! Is that where it came from? Like the idea of putting a Bible in? Whoa, that's freaking cool.
Melissa (15:10)
That's where it came from.
They were putting the Bibles in the drawers
so that like the traveling salesman would be like, yeah, Jesus, and not have sex with some at-home wife.
So David is aware of the reputation that Yankee peddlers have and decides to come up with his own alternative way to build trust in the mostly women who answered the door. So he has samples of perfume that he makes himself. Often the perfume was enough of an enticement that they would either let him into their house or just buy the books that he was selling. It seems that they were mostly solefleurs
From what I saw it was like stuff like violet, rose, pretty basic solefleurs, but regardless they were still something that no other book salesman was doing.
Bee (15:58)
Right?
Melissa (16:00)
In 1886, David founded the California Perfume Company, or CPC, because the perfumes were selling at a higher rate than any of his books.
Bee (16:10)
1888 you say? 86. Okay, so you have to also think there's a bunch of people that can't read.
Melissa (16:11)
1886.
point. totally fair. According to company legend, despite the corporate office being based in Manhattan and the factory being based in Suffern New York, the name California Perfume Company was chosen to appeal to the spirit of manifest destiny, westward expansion, and the exoticism that most Americans associated with California.
Bee (16:18)
Like I don't need a book, but I like to smell good.
Yikes. Okay.
Melissa (16:41)
California was exotic in 1886.
That itself says a lot about the time. The company originally sold toiletries, soap, and other household items. They did have the perfumes. David made all of them in the beginning by hand. But they were not considered the hero products. The hero products were predominantly the soap. What separated the California Perfume Company from other direct sales companies
Bee (16:48)
Yeah.
Wow.
Melissa (17:09)
was that they exclusively hired women as their representatives. And in the 1920s, they specified in all of their materials to only hire women as representatives. In the beginning, there were some sons who joined on underneath their mom, who was the representative and would go out selling. But none of them were allowed after 1920.
Some women may have signed up under their husband's name, because once again, this is the time of like Mrs. John Smith, and women themselves don't have any identity outside of their husband. So there are some men on the records. So we don't 100 % know how many men versus women there are, but when it started, it was exclusively just women.
Bee (17:45)
My
Melissa (17:57)
There's a few reasons for this. One reason is that David believes that women selling to other women that they were familiar with would reduce the likelihood of lawsuits or complaints about any of the products. The second had to do with the poor reputation of traveling salesmen. By assigning the door-to-door aspect to women, a different layer of respectability was introduced
especially considering the company's structure. So CPC had assigned territories. Usually there was a town that had a representative and that representative had already lived in the town. The representative would also make a straight commission of 30 to 40 % depending on the size of their order in a month-long cycle. if the order was bigger than $30, they didn't have to pay shipping, they got the 40%.
anything under that they got 30 % and had to pay shipping.
Bee (18:45)
Okay.
Melissa (18:49)
So shipping and distribution of products and sales materials, such as the color catalogs and the sample kits, accounted for the bulk of CPC's expenses. So they focused on rural white women.
Bee (19:01)
Well...
Melissa (19:02)
They
explicitly excluded urban areas and women of color and just focused on those particular women.
Bee (19:10)
can't say that I'm shocked or surprised.
Melissa (19:13)
it's gonna get worse. The racism is gonna get worse. ⁓ It seems that David's logic was focusing on rural white women because they had a lack of competition, If you are in the boonies, you don't have access, just like with the Yankee peddlers, to other options. So you're going...
Bee (19:16)
Okay.
Melissa (19:35)
only to your your Avon representative. One source did suggest that David saw the connections between rural women and how they would often rely on and depend on one another for things like childcare and help around the house and borrowing a cup of sugar from your neighbor. But there isn't a lot of evidence to support that, both in the writings from
Bee (19:38)
Right.
Of course.
Melissa (20:01)
the company and also in David's own writings. What evidence does exist is that at this time, the Sears and Roebuck catalog was coming out, And it was being mailed to households nationwide. So this did give rural Americans some ability to purchase items that were limited to them.
but it lacked that tactile sensation of seeing the product and interacting with the product before making a purchase, You're just seeing a picture in a catalog that gets sent to your house. Women in urban areas had access to these department stores and that allowed them to have that same experience of the tactile touching and feeling and smelling, but rural women didn't. CPC wanted to bring those items to your house,
both for you to sample and then they would bring them to your house when you purchased them. So you didn't have to pay for things like shipping. It was all kind of included in your purchase. This is so prevalent throughout the company's history that in 1920, so more than 30 years after it opened, about 85 % of all representatives lived in towns with a population less than 2,500 people.
Bee (21:06)
you
Wow.
Melissa (21:13)
So they were going hard on the rural women but they were, they were in on it.
Bee (21:14)
Yeah.
So is this like where we get things like Tupperware parties or like catalog? Is it? Will they have like catalog parties?
Melissa (21:28)
So this is like way before that. Basically, the women would go door to door and absolutely like knock on women's doors and then in the parlor or in the kitchen or something like that, they would bring their sample kit and the color catalog, which because they were so expensive at the time, only the representative got to keep the color catalog. They had like booklets and stuff that they would leave with the people that they called on.
Bee (21:31)
Okay.
Got it.
Melissa (21:56)
but those were not in color. And they were actual life size in the color catalog. So you could see exactly the size of the product that you were buying. And then the sample kit would have things like samples of the soap, the perfume, so that you could kind of experience it before you bought it.
Bee (21:59)
That makes sense.
Right.
Melissa (22:15)
Also, there was a logistical solution for the company that they got out of focusing on rural women. Women in rural markets were less likely to be exposed to and adopt trends, So CPC could continue to crank out these same products over and over again without constantly having to adapt products. Also, since management is based in New York, they can see the trends that are going to last a really long time.
before they then brought that product into their lineup.
Bee (22:44)
That makes sense, yeah.
Melissa (22:47)
In 1911, CPC became the first company to offer its representatives a car. So now we're like, MLMs are always trying to give you a car, be it a Cadillac or Mercedes Benz or whatever the fuck. But yeah, CPC was the first one to give its representatives a car. It was the shittiest car on the market and the cheapest one to buy, but you could win a car. And unlike in modern MLMs, you won the car.
There was no like payments, ⁓ Nope. Nope, it was just a car. Besides the financial aspect, CPC also gave its representatives non-monetary prizes all of the time based off of the volume of wholesale orders. So they were things like glassware
Bee (23:14)
Wow.
the cars branded with like all the crazy shit that we see today. No.
Melissa (23:35)
people were...
in for the prizes, not even as much as the monetary reward.
Bee (23:39)
Yeah.
Melissa (23:42)
where it gets hella racist, the prizes were based on the percentage of the white population in the territory that they covered. So let's say there were a thousand white people in your town, your percentage for the prize was based off of that, so that someone who maybe made three times as much as you
Bee (23:54)
Right.
Melissa (24:03)
but lived in a bigger town, they would not have the same numbers that you did.
Bee (24:08)
Right. That makes sense.
Melissa (24:11)
The repeated exclusion of African-Americans throughout this time seems dumb. And it's a poor business decision is how I wrote it to be nice, but it's dumb. One of my sources talked about how Madam C.J. Walker was a multimillionaire making the literal same types of products that Avon was making. She just sold them to the African-American community. it seemed like there was a market.
Bee (24:35)
Right
Melissa (24:36)
Avon just excluded itself from that market. They also excluded themselves from urban areas too. So it's not just African Americans, it's also urban areas.
So based off of company records that we have from the time, approximately one third of women were actively generating income as representatives. Another third were placing small orders, primarily purchasing CPC products at a wholesale price. So using it for their own discount, which is what MLMs kind of use now, But it seems that
for its first 50 years, there was a significant amount of people who were just buying it to get the discount. And then the bottom third weren't selling anything at all.
Bee (25:19)
Right.
Melissa (25:23)
If you're in the bottom third, if CPC didn't receive any correspondence, they were pretty open, if you had an illness or if someone in your family had an illness and you had to kind of put your CPC representative life on hold, they were totally fine with it if you reached out to them. But if you went no contact with CPC, they would reassign someone to your territory.
Bee (25:45)
My god.
Melissa (25:47)
But you did have like nine months to not sell anything and not contact the company. one of the things that does start happening is they send out daily chats. So every day in your mailbox you are getting something from CPC.
that's like motivational stuff or telling about like representative lives. if you're not producing anything, they're still sending you out those letters every single day. So it is a bit of a suck on the company to have representatives who aren't selling anything.
Bee (26:16)
Yeah, because they're wasting money on postage
Melissa (26:19)
So much money on postage. So much of like the records that we have are from all of these like daily chats that went out to representatives every single fucking day.
There was a high level of turnover, but this could also be related to the conflict between domesticity and maintaining personal economy, A lot of these women were supposed to be stay-at-home moms, They're supposed to just be taking care of a house and keeping a house. And there seems to be some conflicts with women and traditional gender roles.
and how it kind of brushed up against this idea of being a door-to-door salesperson.
Bee (26:51)
All
Melissa (26:57)
Women who were representatives often fell into specific categories. There were unmarried women in their 20s and 30s, No surprise these women had to support themselves. There were also several widows. The average age of a CPC representative around this time was in their late 40s. So a lot of them were widows. They'd been left with debts.
Bee (27:06)
Bye.
Melissa (27:21)
oftentimes had home maintenance costs and were using CPC in order to supplement their income and to pay for their lifestyle. There were also women who had absent husbands, and I put that in air quotes for those of you who are not watching on the video. And the absent husband trope is something that follows Avon representatives for years. Even now, I think...
They talk about absent husbands and like don't let your husband know that you're making this order in a lot of different MLMs
Bee (27:49)
Yes, yeah.
Melissa (27:50)
don't let him know have a private credit card so that he can't see the money that you're paying on insert MLM here ⁓ But at the time the absent husband trope referred to a husband who was not part of the family for Let's insert whatever reason or actively engaging in activities that were perceived as less than ideal such as frequent gambling or drinking
Bee (27:57)
Right.
Melissa (28:16)
There were also a lot of women who ran, say, boarding houses who were CPC representatives. And a lot of times they were running the boarding house because they had been left this house either from some previous male relation. And we're looking to kind of supplement their income on top of running the boarding house.
Many women would write to CPC and discuss how the ability to be a representative helped them provide an income when a loved one had died and saddled the family with debt. So at this time, this is one of the only occupations where you could actually make income, right? Because a lot of them are rural, so they're living on farms. They're not necessarily making their own income from working on the family farm, that they could have their own money.
Bee (29:00)
Right.
Melissa (29:02)
that they are in charge of and they are responsible for because there wasn't a lot.
But for the most part...
Bee (29:10)
So there was
a real, like, way to make money from it in the beginning.
Melissa (29:13)
Yep, there
was absolutely a real way to make money. And it was a straight, either you're making 30 % or you're making 40%. You may have to pay for shipping, but if you're making a substantial order every single month, you don't have to pay for shipping, you're making that 40%. And it could work with having children and providing childcare or taking care of an ill relative, because it's up to you when you work.
Bee (29:29)
Right.
Melissa (29:41)
and how many doors you knock on every single day. CPC knew that most of their employees were only doing five to 10 hours a week of actual door-to-door knocking.
Bee (29:44)
right
Melissa (29:53)
There were also traveling agents. The traveling agents, be honest, sounds like the coolest fucking job. And I would have a thousand percent have wanted to be a traveling agent time. what separates CPC apart for me is that traveling agents were paid a salary.
Bee (30:04)
How'd it work?
Melissa (30:14)
So they were paid a salary. You had to get at least $250 of wholesale orders, and then you would be presented the opportunity to become a traveling agent. Usually you were assigned to a state, but especially in the West, you were assigned to multiple states. And they would go from town to town and hire women to be CPC representatives.
Bee (30:36)
So just like recruitment.
Melissa (30:37)
Yep, you would just do recruitment. You would also train your hire and provide them with their sample kit and color catalog. So they were walking around with trunks with a sample kit and color catalog.
They made a salary of $100 a month and CPC paid for all their travel expenses. They didn't cover room and board, but all of the train tickets, all of like the cabs, everything like that was paid for by CPC. And traveling agents could also earn bonuses based on the success of the representatives that they hired. So you got a dollar for every representative you hired, and then you got $3.
if their first month was more than $30. So if we're doing some quick math, most of the traveling agents were signing up around five representatives meanwhile, you are going to a different town every single day. So that's work, like you are working for that money. And if about a third end up being quality hires, you're walking out with 150 bucks a month.
Bee (31:26)
Yeah.
What's the exchange rate on that for the time?
Melissa (31:40)
the average woman at the time, if we take say like a teacher, which was an established woman profession, was making $25 a month.
Bee (31:48)
Wow.
Melissa (31:48)
So this seems like a pretty nice gig. You are traveling, you are on the road for most of the year. On average, they would travel about 10 months of the year, occasionally going back home. So you are traveling a lot of time, but you're making good, good money.
Bee (32:08)
Right.
Melissa (32:10)
especially for women at the time. They also would regularly get raises. So CPC would give them raises typically around $10 per month per year. So every year you stayed, your base salary was 110,
Bee (32:25)
now.
Melissa (32:25)
And this is the only kind of like middle management position for women at this time.
Bee (32:26)
That's me.
Yeah.
Melissa (32:33)
One traveler noted that before she became a traveling agent, she was making $12.50 a month as a dental assistant.
Bee (32:41)
my
Melissa (32:42)
So could you imagine going from $12.50 a month to $125 a month?
Bee (32:47)
Game changer.
Melissa (32:48)
And you get to like explore the country? Fuck yeah. absolutely, would have signed up for this job.
Bee (32:48)
Wow.
100%.
Melissa (32:55)
Turnover was also significantly lower for traveling agents, most of whom would work for the company for six years or more.
Bee (33:02)
Wow.
Melissa (33:04)
So while the representative gig seems like it sucked, like I think we could say that kind of sucks, the money's not great, but it's super flexible, especially if you have children, especially if you're any kind of, you know, wife or mother and have other roles that you have to fulfill in your life. But if you're like a young 20 year old woman and you're trying to be self-sustaining,
Bee (33:32)
This is the gig!
Melissa (33:34)
But once the traveling agent hired you, or if you were a traveling agent yourself, you were often isolated from the rest of CPC, This is where those daily mailed newsletters start going out, You want to be connected to other people, you want to gain the skills to be more effective, And these daily mailed newsletters just keep going out
And for traveling agents, they would actually ship them to post offices along the route. Because CPC made the routes that the traveling agents would go on. So they knew, okay, on this day, this agent is supposed to be in this town. So they would just send her these letters.
Bee (34:15)
So be like, go to this
post office, get your mail. Got
Melissa (34:18)
and
Bee (34:18)
Sounds like
a pretty sweet gig for the time.
Melissa (34:20)
this is all like 1910 to like 1930. I'm like, yeah, I'd fucking do this. Are you kidding me? It's great. But what I will say is in these newsletters, it's where you start getting the prosperity gospel and like this think and grow rich ideal that is more commonly associated with MLMs today.
Bee (34:26)
pretty legit. Yeah.
Melissa (34:42)
So for our beautiful souls who are listening, who are not familiar with prosperity gospel logic, I'm here to ruin your day. The prosperity gospel teaches that if you are faithful to God, you will be rewarded in material riches. So if you are rich, it is because you are faithful and God loves you. There are more modern,
Christians who take this into like, well, if you plant the seed by donating money to my church, that will be planted and grow into a big fuck-all tree of money.
Bee (35:16)
You see it a lot with mega churches.
Melissa (35:19)
Yes, mega
churches use the prosperity gospel a lot, but in the writings they were just kind of like, you know, if you have faith, and if you really believe in your heart that you are a capable representative, you will make money.
the newsletters have that proto think and grow rich mindset. If you're successful, it's because you believed yourself to be successful. And if you're not successful, it's not the fault of any shitty systems or shitty products. It is your unconscious thoughts.
Bee (35:41)
huh.
Melissa (35:53)
that are manifesting in poor sales.
Bee (35:54)
Right.
You've done it to yourself.
Melissa (35:59)
How dare you? Once we get into the depression, a few things change. First, color cosmetics are gaining more traction. As we know from the Max Factor episode, this starts to be where color cosmetics really take off. And CPC is already knocking on your door, right? So because CPC is already knock knock every five or so weeks,
Bee (36:09)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (36:21)
They're coming in with those color cosmetics. And this is when CPC launches its Avon line of colored cosmetics. So the colored cosmetics part is the stuff that actually gets the Avon name and they get it from Stratford upon Avon, which reminded David of the hills of Suffern New York where he's from.
Bee (36:42)
I had no clue that's where Avon came from. Wow.
Melissa (36:42)
That's where it's named. Yep,
and Stratford-upon-Avon is where Shakespeare was born.
Originally Avon's colored cosmetics were extremely limited in their color variety, not just because of the whiteness, but also because the majority of Avon's customers are in rural areas. They're not interested in like typical color cosmetics. They're interested in like stuff that makes you look like you weren't in a field for most of your life. So it's kind of boring by our standards palettes.
Bee (37:11)
Right.
Melissa (37:16)
and something that wouldn't necessarily be commercially viable in, other areas at the time.
I also want to bring up at this time the lipstick effect. In times of economic uncertainty, people often turn to small luxuries that help them feel better about their circumstances. This has recently become a topic of conversation in the broader discussion of Lebubus
Bee (37:39)
Lebubus ⁓
Melissa (37:40)
We're
bringing it back to modern times.
Bee (37:43)
And before the
Lebubus it was avocado toast.
Melissa (37:46)
Right? So we're purchasing labubus because we can't afford to buy a house, right? And that's kind of the same idea of what's happening with color cosmetics at this time. During the Great Depression, people would write into CPC and say, hey, I can't afford new clothes, but I feel like a new woman because I put on lipstick. And Avon, just like today, was reasonably priced in comparison to say other.
Bee (37:49)
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Melissa (38:14)
stuff out there on the market, It's always kind of been drugstore level quality and drugstore level pricing.
Second, during the Depression, as many people were laid off, they turned to direct sales as a way to make ends meet, So several direct sales companies, not just Avon, did better and thrive during the Depression. And you see this with things like the Fuller Brush Company, which often was like the male counterpart of Avon. They're just, they're doing super well at this time. So door-to-door sales are
taken off during the Great Depression. In fact, the company promotes women's participation in the economy, both as buyers and sellers of Avon products, as a new form of patriotism. You're helping the economy, guys. We're getting us out of the depression by buying our lipstick.
Bee (39:01)
Look at that.
Be an American. Do your duty.
Melissa (39:04)
Be an American,
do your capitalistic duty Avon sales continue to increase every year throughout the Depression. But we also get the New Deal, which has a lot of progressive policies.
So Avon worked with the government to establish independent contractors. They framed this as giving the representatives the ability to make their own hours and adapt to the needs of their domestic lives. But we both know it's about that money. Because independent contractors are not covered by workplace protections.
However, since the company had limited the territories in which people could work, and now a bunch of people really wanted to sell, David Sr. reluctantly gave in to David Jr.'s idea that they should expand into urban markets. So in 1937 the company changed its entire name to Avon and started hiring in urban centers. yay!
Bee (40:01)
Yay!
Melissa (40:02)
Avon was also engaging in advertising throughout the country, both in print and on the radio, but in urban markets, what was happening is that they were recognizing the brand, but had no idea how to purchase the product. So if you're like Melissa, cities are really big and everything in Avon at this point is super spread out. How did they fucking handle it? Avon takes
Bee (40:25)
Yeah.
Melissa (40:26)
the top traveling agents and assigns them to cities. The one thing that is kind of fucked up at this point is that they just kind of like randomly assign them a city based off of nothing, like based off of like company need and not necessarily anywhere that these people were from or had experience working in. hey, we need a city office in Pasadena. You're moving. You're moving and got like six weeks.
Bee (40:48)
You're going.
Melissa (40:52)
Pack your shit and go.
But the traveling agents would then have their own office that they were entirely in charge of, So they were the ones who bought it, they were the ones who got the checks from Avon to pay the rent, they could pick where it was in their city, they could do all of that. They were completely in charge of running the city office. They were called city managers and they were also paid a salary. So
Bee (41:13)
Wow.
Melissa (41:18)
Just like these traveling agents, they were also paid a salary. The only people who were not paid a salary were the individual representatives. And they consisted entirely of women. City managers also had assistant managers who were also paid a salary.
So I think, especially in our modern discourse about Avon, we love shitting on it because it's an MLM. But for decades of its history, it was not an MLM. Was there sales involved? Absolutely. But so were so many other door-to-door selling companies. But they're promoting women to managers. They're promoting women to middle management.
Bee (41:52)
Right.
Melissa (42:02)
It does seem that the company had this glass ceiling that you weren't going to work for the New York office. They also had a big office in Kansas City that managed everything west of the Mississippi. ⁓ But that's still pretty good for the time. I'm not saying it's great by today's standards, but for the time, that was pretty innovative.
Bee (42:12)
no.
What are your other options?
Melissa (42:24)
Yes, what are your other options
So city managers were responsible for making sure that representatives' territories didn't overlap, So once again, you still got your own territory. You didn't have to worry about anybody getting into your area. You were responsible for your territory, and more than likely, you lived in that territory. They also appointed African American representatives to predominantly African American neighborhoods. This is where, when I told you it gets worse, this is where it gets real fucking bad, okay?
Bee (42:53)
Okay.
Melissa (42:54)
Of course, this is racist. most Avon representatives were allowed to place orders from their customers on credit, right? So I say, I want a lipstick and some shampoo. You place the order with Avon and I don't have to pay you until it gets in, right? Not the people of color. They had to pay everything in advance before they received any of their products. They also had a grace period in order to
have, like, the money for their sample kit. African American women did not have that same ability. Everything needed to be paid up front. They also had completely different catalogs. So remember how everything was colored and you can bring the color catalog in? So for white women you got a white representative and a white customer. Then they had a black representative and a black customer.
Bee (43:37)
Yeah.
Melissa (43:50)
in the catalogs that they would give to Black Avon ladies.
Bee (43:54)
Oh damn
Melissa (43:54)
One source said it was separate but equal and I was like, no, no, we're not, we're not, we're not doing that. Cause it's definitely not exactly equal.
Bee (44:02)
That's the thing with capitalism though. Capitalism doesn't really care as long as you're paying.
But in this case, because you're black, we'll need the money upfront.
Melissa (44:10)
City managers would continue to balance their territories over the next few decades. This continued for a very long time. They would also evolve with the times. One of the things I found interesting is that in these city offices, they would hold a weekly meeting where representatives would come for a pep talk and an educational session. Usually it was Monday morning.
You would go to the city manager office and you would get like the pep talk session and then you'd go out for the week to make your sales
Bee (44:41)
That's kinda cool that they got to do that. I mean, at least you weren't completely alone and isolated in an office with just one other person.
Melissa (44:48)
Correct.
Bee (44:49)
Cause they're not going door to door, right? Like the city manager's on... Yeah.
Melissa (44:52)
Yeah, the city managers didn't have to because they're getting paid a salary.
But what I will say is a lot of the representatives did join for this social aspect, this starts in like the late 30s, early 40s, a bunch of women joined the war effort, especially in the industrial sector, and then the men come home from war and they take all of those jobs. And now these women are supposed to just stay at home and
be a baby-making machine, I think is the technical term. ⁓ So because of that, a lot of women really liked the taste of independence that they got during World War II. And when it comes to these meetings, it's their only time to talk with like-minded women, This is the only time for them to get out of the house
Bee (45:23)
Right.
Melissa (45:40)
The city offices also regularly held training sessions for new and established representatives.
So you didn't have to be new to get training. You could come in at any point in time into the office and take a training. This is where representatives could actually see and feel all of those vintage Avon bottles that you love.
Bee (46:01)
Love!
Melissa (46:02)
because before they had to buy it and then they could see it. Whereas here, when they had these central locations, Avon could just send the product to these offices and then people could interact with those products before they would sell it to their customers. So they could say, my God, this swan is about this big and it's so cute. You totally want it.
Because all the representatives had their own individual territories, they often encourage one another's success, right? As long as Avon is on everybody's mind, everybody else is, you know, patting you on the back.
Bee (46:37)
Yeah.
Melissa (46:39)
And these managers also had rewards for the representatives. So if you sold a certain amount or if you accomplished some goal that there was for you, you could say, sit in the front row during the meeting. You could get a special pin. That's where all of that kind of motivation happened in front of other representatives who you were friendly with.
Bee (47:03)
to creating friendly competition.
Melissa (47:05)
Absolutely. And rewards with your friends, Because you're like, oh my god, you got to sit in the front row? I'm so jealous. You're doing so well. The ding-dong Avon calling ads started appearing in 1953. And you know what I'm gonna ask you? Do you want to watch them?
Bee (47:21)
out.
Yes, of course.
Melissa (47:28)
every once in a while I get to have fun parts of my job. And this is one of them.
Bee (47:55)
Avon calling I've got my Avon cosmetics calling I
Melissa (48:01)
Evan
Cosmetics Calling
Bee (48:04)
that was kind of very corny but of the time and kind of cute.
what a commercial!
Melissa (48:13)
They don't make them like that anymore.
But it does talk to a lot of these things that we've been talking about so far in this episode, right? All of them featured the representative coming to your house. You could smell the perfumes. You could interact with the product. It's a woman talking to another woman in their living room, right? And all of that is a lot of what Avon had kind of held onto for decades at this point,
Bee (48:25)
A woman.
Melissa (48:39)
Because in the 1950s, it had been around for almost 70 years.
So, when we talk about this company, it's been around for such a long time. Such a long time. In the 1970s, Avon finally decides that diversity is cool. Throughout the second wave of feminism, when women are now pushing for more workplace freedom, Avon positions itself as a champion for women. Unfortunately, this is not seen in any of their executive staff.
Bee (48:43)
That's crazy to think about.
Yeah.
Melissa (49:06)
The highest position a woman could hold in the company was as a city manager. You weren't getting to their corporate offices in either Kansas City or in Manhattan.
In 1972, they name a woman Cicily Selby to the board of directors. The PR team at Avon spins this appointment into this overall idea that Avon has pushing throughout its lifetime, that women can be successful in both their business and their personal lives. And in interviews at the time, Cicily is talking about like, oh, I'm just a woman who has at all a career and a family and everything is so picture perfect.
Bee (49:37)
Yeah.
Melissa (49:47)
In 1976, after working with several prominent African American associations, they appoint Ernesta Procope I'm going to say that I pronounce that correctly, to the board of directors. In sharp contrast to Cicily there is no mention about how she balances work and family.
Right? It's like, okay, we have our Black woman.
and nothing else.
So there's one story from the Avon lore that I have to read to you, because it's one of my favorite pieces of information. In 1972, Patricia Neighbors, the highest ranking female manager in Avon at the time, orchestrated a surprise one-man wake-up call for Avon's regional sales managers, who were all men.
Bee (50:14)
Okay.
Melissa (50:29)
Neighbors walked into the room, complimenting each of the men on their suits, their hair, and how wonderful they looked. It made them, quote, embarrassed and red-faced. When eventually Neighbors took to the podium, she told them, "This is the way 75 district sales managers start meetings every month with the female sales associates. Don't think for a moment the emotions that you just experienced aren't experienced by these women every single month."
Bee (50:57)
Whoa.
Melissa (50:58)
In fact, Neighbors was not even punished and in 1974 she was named one of the first female vice presidents at Avon and continued pushing for more women in management and female-friendly policies.
Bee (51:11)
Good for her, yes bitch!
Melissa (51:14)
to go in and just be like, hey, hey, I'm gonna do to you what you've been doing to me and see how you feel.
Bee (51:18)
Hey,
I love that. Sometimes you just gotta get even.
Melissa (51:24)
another significant development in the 1970s is that several MLMs come under scrutiny. The first one we're gonna start off with is Holiday Magic. It's an MLM that also sold cosmetics and toiletries. It was sued by the state of California in December of 1972. I couldn't find out if this was the first time it had been accused of being a pyramid scheme, but it's been sued multiple times throughout the course of its history.
Bee (51:50)
Wow.
Melissa (51:51)
for allegedly operating as one. In 1973, Avon sued the company for defamation. Some of his promotional material specifically clapped at Avon, and Avon didn't like that.
Bee (52:06)
my God.
Melissa (52:08)
In the 70s it seems like it was more of a PR stunt than anything actual, but Amway and Mary Kay both made bids for Avon at this time and both were resoundingly rejected. Mary Kay did advertise that their representatives made more money through the MLM structure.
Bee (52:27)
The girls are fighting!
Melissa (52:29)
So Mary Kay herself was saying that the representatives were making around 40k a year. But as we know with MLMs, how much of that is you buying your own product, you buying all of your own shit, going to meetings, going to seminars.
and how much of that is like actual money, money in your pocket. But all the way through the 1990s, representatives received a flat commission through Avon of 30 to 40 % on sales.
because they didn't have traveling agents, there weren't really opportunities for advancement the same way that there were in an MLM with having say like a downline. But you did receive a flat commission depending on the size of your order.
Bee (53:13)
Wow.
Melissa (53:14)
So we do think of Avon as just another MLM, but they resisted the fuck out of becoming one. They didn't fully convert to the MLM model until 1999. Amway had been an MLM for 40 years at that point.
Bee (53:27)
lines.
Melissa (53:29)
So all the, 1999. I grew up totally with the Avon lady. She was Mrs. Gomez. Mrs. Gomez was our Avon lady. And my mom would purchase like a fuck ton of the 99 cent the lip balms, because we're constantly losing them. And she would always, because she knew that like we were three girls at home, she would always put in like the lipstick, little lipstick samples that were like this big.
Bee (53:30)
Yaaaas!
That's very sweet.
Melissa (53:57)
she was making 30 to 40 percent Of every single one of those orders
Bee (54:02)
Crazy. I remember being a kid and having Avon people come to the door before.
Melissa (54:07)
Yeah, and for almost that entire time, they were not on an MLM structure. They were just making straight commission.
Bee (54:14)
Yeah. Good for them. I mean, it sucks, of course, all things because if greed and capitalism go towards...
Especially with MLMs, pyramid schemes and multi-level marketing traps.
Melissa (54:28)
it also seems that Avon felt that they had to adopt the MLM structure because they were all these crazy success stories from the top 1 % at Mary Kay or Amway. And they were like, if I'm going door to door, I want to make more money, even though the money that people were making from Avon was a little bit more reliable and based more in reality. ⁓
Bee (54:52)
Yeah.
Melissa (54:54)
were there sketchy practices of like still knocking door to door and the regular stuff that is associated with direct sales? Absolutely. But there wasn't the MLM recruiting part.
Bee (55:01)
Right.
Melissa (55:04)
They also get involved in the Avon Foundation, which focuses on issues associated with women like breast cancer and domestic violence. And combined, the Avon Foundation has raised over $400 million for both of these causes to date.
Bee (55:19)
So that's pretty incredible.
Melissa (55:21)
they're making good money. But still, to raise that much money for charitable causes, particularly those associated with women, is pretty baller.
Bee (55:33)
Yeah, it's a good thing.
Melissa (55:35)
In addition to the ongoing transition to the MLM structure, they also made significant strides in their hiring practices. In 1999, Andrea Jung previously the head of product marketing, became the company's first female CEO. It took them over 100 years, but they had their first woman.
Bee (55:54)
They got there eventually.
Melissa (55:55)
Also, in the 90s is when they launched the fragrance of the week. We're finally getting into it. We've only been recording for an hour and a half, but we're here. We've made it to Far Away
Bee (56:02)
We're here. ⁓
Melissa (56:08)
So, Far Away was created by René Morgenthaler and Xavier Renard. Renee comes from the Givudan School of Perfumery, so we're back. And Xavier comes from IFF and Takasago from last week's episode It's like a fungus. In an incredible display of colonialism, this scent is described as a blend of freesia, sheer jasmine, and enticing amber.
that transports you to the exotic and beyond.
Bee (56:33)
The exotic amber. Yeah.
Melissa (56:36)
Some of the descriptions did have Sandalwood, which is why I put it in the Sandalwood episode.
So I just sent you a lovely review that I would like you to read.
Bee (56:47)
Let's go!
I found a vintage bottle for $5 at an antique shop in South Carolina and bought it on a whim. Because who can beat $5? I'm pretty sure my nana must have worn this at some point in my life because upon spraying it for the first time, I got an overwhelming impression of one of her hugs. This was a very bittersweet reaction as she passed away in 2012.
Melissa (57:10)
That's a cute one.
Bee (57:11)
It's really cute.
Melissa (57:13)
So many of the reviews that I read did talk to this nostalgia aspect of Far Away that like, my insert female relative wore this in the 90s and now I have a bottle because it reminds me of them.
Bee (57:28)
that freesia and Amber.
Melissa (57:29)
freesia was fucking everywhere, especially in the late 90s. God damn.
Now moving into more modern times. In 2016, around the time I was a shitty Avon representative, because we haven't talked about me being a shitty Avon representative, I was in it for the nostalgia. I really wanted, the old school stuff that I missed from my childhood. So I became an Avon. Oh, I got all of it. I had so much fucking Avon shit.
Bee (57:50)
Did you get any of it?
Melissa (57:55)
I gave Avon to everybody. I was obsessed with the jewelry because it was so cheap. They had fucking sterling silver jewelry for 15 bucks. they had cool body sprays that they would launch like every two months that were seasonal. And I was like, fuck yeah. All right, for five bucks. And Avon representatives could get everything ahead of time.
So.
Bee (58:16)
that exclusive
before everyone else.
Melissa (58:18)
I had that exclusive exclusive,
I was absolutely one of these, I'm going to buy it just so I can get the discount, people. in 2016, you could just apply to be a representative online, and they would appoint you an upline. So that's how I joined. I didn't, like, join.
Bee (58:33)
Was she in
the same city at least?
Melissa (58:35)
I think so? I never met her. I think she's like added me on LinkedIn,
Bee (58:39)
What was her name? Darlene, if you're watching this, this goes out to you. This episode's for you,
Melissa (58:41)
Darlene.
Darlene,
my OG upline, thank you.
yes, in 2016, they spun out the North American operations from the global brand. They also moved their headquarters to London. So they're no longer based in New York. They're now based in London. It reformed as New Avon, which was a different LLC.
which was eventually purchased by Natura, the Brazilian company that tanked The Body Shop
Bee (59:09)
Now.
Melissa (59:10)
and that's who currently owns it.
They are also only focusing on major lines within the brand, things like Skin So Soft and Renew, and their cheap as fuck silver jewelry is not really emphasized anymore. In 2024, they announced a new refillable bottle for Far Away.
Avon announced, did you know that we are the best-selling fragrance brand by volume in the world and sell five fragrances every second?
Bee (59:38)
I'm sorry, what?
Melissa (59:41)
Yep.
Bee (59:43)
Well, by volume,
because you're having... It's an MLM, so people have to... buy it... to sell it. That's not as big of a flex as I think they think it is.
Melissa (59:47)
Have a fuck time in the basement, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
⁓
no. And did that same press release also say Oriental more than half a dozen times? Yes. Yes, it did.
Bee (1:00:01)
Of course it did.
Melissa (1:00:02)
Do you have any Avon favorites that you would love to bring back?
Bee (1:00:06)
Honestly, I would just like to bring back fun packaging. Cool packaging. A unicorn fuckin' perfume bottle? Done.
Melissa (1:00:11)
I'm sorry.
Bee (1:00:15)
just bring back cool packaging. That's fun.
Melissa (1:00:19)
I'm sorry, Carolina Herrera in a fucking stiletto is not cool enough for you?
Bee (1:00:24)
I mean, that's cool. Yeah, we've had it for quite some time though. Like they were dropping new fragrances like every fucking month with like cool packaging. Like if you look at the backlog of Avon's glass bottle packaging, it's so cool. I have one that's a fucking, it looks like a screwdriver, but it's perfume. Cool.
Melissa (1:00:47)
See? And that's the kind of stuff that you could bring door to door and people would be super stoked about it to see in real life. Yeah.
Bee (1:00:54)
Yeah!
Melissa (1:00:55)
for an episode.
Bee (1:00:55)
We
don't need more MLMs, that's the thing.
Melissa (1:00:59)
We don't need more MLMs, but I can say this when I was a representative, it was all about sales. Like there was obviously like some stuff about recruiting, but for the most part they were like, no, sell our shit.
I think Avon is still, or at least in 2016, which is now almost 10 years at this point, was for sure more focused on the sales aspect than the MLM aspect. The fact that I didn't even know my upline, I knew her name was Darlene and got an email from her every two months.
Bee (1:01:10)
Right.
Right.
Melissa (1:01:32)
That was about the extent of the MLM structure in Avon And it just seemed like it was more people who were really interested in their products
The emphasis was really on the sales and the products. It was not about recruiting people or making an upline or anything like that.
Bee (1:01:51)
What an episode.
I feel like we've gone on a full journey. Sandalwood, Avon.
Melissa (1:01:55)
Same.
This is gonna be a long-ass episode, but you know what?
Melissa (1:02:01)
Look at this shit, I got like a mic stand and everything fucking now. Sillage and Sorcery was produced by Bee Sampson and Melissa Sifjardóttir It was written and researched by Melissa Sifjardóttir and Bee Sampson. Our logo was designed by Bee Sampson. It was edited by Melissa Sifjardóttir. If you are looking for alternative links to find us, merch, any of that fine stuff, including links to our brands because
honestly, we're perfumers, not podcasters, you can find that on our website, which is www.sillageandsorcery.com. Also, we would love it if you guys subscribed, followed, rated us, reviewed us. It really helps find other cool people like yourself. And you know you want to make more awesome people who are obsessed with perfume like you are.
I love you and I'll see you in the next one. Bye.
Bee (1:02:58)
⁓
Melissa (1:02:58)
and the koalas
have chlamydia. Do you know about this? So I'm obsessed with John Oliver apparently there's like a crazy high amount of koalas with chlamydia. And now it's like such an epidemic that the, what is the name? The crocodile hunter guy who was the hot son
Bee (1:03:00)
What?
The cool one.
Crockett? Yeah, Steve Irwin.
Melissa (1:03:15)
Steve Irwin, there we go. But this
Steve Irwin foundation has an entire John Oliver Koala Chlamydia ward.
Bee (1:03:25)
That is insane.