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Conversations on Reforestation, Silviculture, Tree Genetics, Planting, Planning and More! Join us as we go deep with forestry experts and explore the art and science of trees.
Paul Jeffreys (00:08)
Hello everybody and welcome to today's edition of the ArborGen TreeLines podcast. I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys and I'm coming to you today from my home office in Detroit, Alabama. And I am the reforestation advisor for North Alabama, Mississippi, and West Tennessee. And on today's episode, we are going to dive into from ranching to reforestation.
and how real world land stewardship shapes better forestry decisions. And we're going to be visiting today with my new colleague, Clint Ebert, he is our new reforestation advisor for Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Northern Louisiana. So welcome Clint.
to the podcast, I just let you go in, let you introduce yourself to everybody.
Clint Ebert (00:55)
Thank you, Paul. And like I say again, my name is Clint Ebert. I'm the reforestation advisor here for Arkansas and ⁓ Oklahoma. Glad to be a part of the team. Currently, you know, do a lot of seedling and ranching as well. You know, far as my history goes, I graduated from Oklahoma State University in 2000.
Paul Jeffreys (01:12)
Right. Right.
Clint Ebert (01:15)
My current work history goes, I spent 15 years with Weyerhaeuser doing various different things, working for them. I spent 10 years with International Paper working for them as a procurement forester. Currently with ArborGen. I'm glad to be a part of the team.
Paul Jeffreys (01:30)
And we're glad to have you Clint. So your background is a little bit different from mine. Well, that's a lot of different from mine. Mine, I grew up on my family farm here in Northwest Alabama. And it was primarily consisted of a tree farm and row crop farming, but your background in farming is a little bit different from that. You actually are a
professional cattleman and rancher. Is that correct?
Clint Ebert (01:57)
I don't know about professional, but yes, I do run a cattle ranch. Yeah, that is my spare time and hobby and I do enjoy it quite a bit. we run it.
Paul Jeffreys (02:03)
I think,
now wait a minute, think, how many head was it you said you have?
Clint Ebert (02:07)
We're currently running about 250 mama cows.
Paul Jeffreys (02:10)
Okay.
All right. That sounds a little bit more than a hobby to me. That sounds like a lot of work to me. So was that your background beginning ⁓ early life was in cattle farming and you kind of focused, of drifted to forestry or was it a little bit of both early on?
Clint Ebert (02:27)
A little bit of both together. I've always enjoyed cattle. I've had cattle since I was in high school, but that's what led me into forestry as well. That's when I was in high school. Yep. I was in the FFA organization, which is a, you know, a school organization there. ⁓ I started that's where I actually started my agriculture and forestry career together, actually. So, ⁓ you know, I was on the forestry judging team there. ⁓ we won state.
Paul Jeffreys (02:32)
huh. Was it? Okay.
yeah.
Okay.
Clint Ebert (02:52)
competition in 1995. We ended up in nationals in 96. And it opened my eye to agriculture and forestry in a different level. Let me see that I can make it a profession and make a career out of it. And it's been a great journey.
Paul Jeffreys (03:06)
Right.
Right. Well, let me ask you this. So you said you went to nationals with your, with FFA. I was in, you know, FFA, I think most high schools in the, in the Southeastern U S they, you know, they have an FFA program and a, a lot of kids get their start in agriculture and find their, their passion for
find their passion for that field of work through the ag programs in high school. So when you say you got your start, was that the first time you got into cattle was in house, was in high school? Okay.
Clint Ebert (03:45)
Pretty much, yeah. My family
always raised cattle on a small scale, my grandparents and my father, but it was not to the scale that we do it today. So, ⁓ but that's.
Paul Jeffreys (03:55)
Okay. So you've kind
of built it up. You've gotten it, you've gotten it built up then. It's gotten bigger. It's gotten bigger since you've been involved in it. Okay. Well, so starting out in your, so you went to Oklahoma State for your forestry, forestry education. So kind of fill us in a little bit on what your, you know, what your focus was in forestry and about your, you know, early career in forestry.
Clint Ebert (03:59)
Yes, yes. Yes.
Okay, you know, my main focus that really led me into forestry was, you know, being into the outdoors, know, creating the, you know, shaping the landscape that we have today. The importance of it, just, I got so much joy from being outside, being part of the outdoors, the wildlife, the timber aspect of it. You know, from being here at Southeast Oklahoma, you know, I've raised in the very Southeast corner of Oklahoma my entire life.
Paul Jeffreys (04:31)
Right.
Clint Ebert (04:46)
Forestry is a huge background for us. Everywhere you go, we've got a large paper mill, we've got several other mills, we've got Weyerhaeuser here. And forestry is just something that we just, you grew up with it. You've seen it every day. You either worked with a logger, you knew a logger, or you was interacting with them constantly. So that led me a lot into forestry. Just being able to help shape the land shape and be a good steward of the land to truly value.
what was important to me. It's where a lot of my joy came from.
Paul Jeffreys (05:19)
Right.
So I share the same interest. my, you know, I started growing up or I grew up here on my family farm and love the outdoors, love getting out, was always flipping tin, you know, flipping things in the woods, trying to find ⁓ reptiles and amphibians and stuff like that when I was a kid. So it seems like we all share that common interest in the care and the love for the environment.
and, you know, taking care, taking care of everything. So you said that your early career, you started out, was it with Weyerhaeuser?
Clint Ebert (05:52)
Yes, when I first, when I first came out of school, actually I was contracting. went and I worked for Oklahoma State University for about six months, in a research center, research plots. And then I ended up contracting for Weyerhaeuser you know, which we actually did a lot of timber cruising. did some BMP audits, just surveys, different stuff for them. did some, most of it was BMP audits where you come back in after they'd logged an area and.
Paul Jeffreys (06:02)
Okay.
Clint Ebert (06:17)
timber crews and the timber appraisals how it started out. I did that for almost two years with them. And then became a full-time employee and spent the rest of the time with them working there. We went through you know, went through a harvester manager there, which we oversaw. They had about 40 different contractors that we had that we managed at that time. Moved from a harvest manager into a procurement role to where we bought stumpage. You know,
During this time, you actually bought your own stumpage and you harvested a lot of it. So, you you carried it from all the way through to the finish of it. So, so that was the biggest role I played with them there. So I did spend two years as a early rotation forester with them ⁓ through tree planting season, site prep, spray, herbicide release and stuff. So when I was...
Paul Jeffreys (06:51)
Right.
Wow, so you
got a very diversified introduction into forestry there with the first job. You did some management and some procurement, correct? Okay, all right.
Clint Ebert (07:13)
Correct, correct, yep. Let me see
kind of all aspects of it and see how important your management decisions really were. How impactful they was, know, to the landscape.
Paul Jeffreys (07:22)
Okay.
Okay, so let me ask you this. So that seems like to me with your experience with what you did there, buying wood and managing and everything, that's very, in essence, you could really correlate that a lot to ranching. And you could really, you know, looking at what you're, you know, buying and selling and working with the commodities and everything. that, I mean, did you lean on some of your experience from both the ranching side and forestry when?
in your day-to-day life.
Clint Ebert (07:54)
Yes, absolutely. I used it quite a bit. Ranching and forestry are very, very similar, know, far as the landscape of the land. As far as what you start with and your outcome and being a good steward of the land, I mean, they're similar. They very are. So they overlap a lot.
Paul Jeffreys (08:11)
Okay. All right. Well, talk a little bit more about that. I mean, you own and operate a very large scale ranch and you also work in forestry. So you're a steward of the land on multiple facets. you know, what's your philosophy here on taking care of the land and the way you approach your everyday job?
Clint Ebert (08:37)
We like with decision-makings and stuff and taking care of the land is so important to really value what you do step by step. You you want to leave it better tomorrow than it was today. It's not a one-time deal. You want to make good decision-making process where you actually have goals in mind. You understand what your objectives are of the land, what you would like to see your outcomes to be. And that's what's so beneficial like working with landowners sometimes is if they know their goals.
Paul Jeffreys (08:47)
Right.
Clint Ebert (09:06)
or their objectives or what they'd like to have their desired outcome. You can help them reach it so much better. And that's like with ranching or with forestry. mean, like on my farm that I manage here on a day-to-day basis, I've got, you know, my two boys help me quite a bit. It's a legacy that I want to leave to them. I want them to be able to do it, you know, so taking care of the soil, taking care of the landscape, taking care of it in a manner to sustain it for future, know.
Paul Jeffreys (09:23)
Right.
Clint Ebert (09:32)
members of the family.
Paul Jeffreys (09:34)
Right. Well, you just
touched on something there that we probably skipped over there in your introduction and everything. So you have family, children there. Just tell us a little bit about your family.
Clint Ebert (09:47)
Yeah, I've been married for 27 years. I've got a great wife. I've got two twin boys that are 15 that keep me really busy. They try to keep me young. Yeah. We're very faith-based with our beliefs and stuff. you know, very fortunate. God's been very good to us, no doubt about it. So I'm very blessed.
Paul Jeffreys (09:55)
⁓
a
exactly, amen to that. So you have two twin boys that are 15. They help you out or they they kind of the cattle wrestlers or cattle drivers on the ranch?
Clint Ebert (10:18)
They are, they are, they help me quite a bit. They are definitely involved in a day to day activities. They both took out some loans. They started their own little business on the side and I've been helping them manage it, which is intertwined with mine, but that's great. They are my number one hands without a doubt.
Paul Jeffreys (10:34)
Okay. All right. What
type of business do they operate?
Clint Ebert (10:37)
They got a cattle business as well. They've started a youth loan. Yeah, you can go and it's through the government program. It's a youth loan that they borrowed. And that's actually how I started too, was with a youth loan when I first began. So, and they'll loan you money and as long as you've got a place to manage your cows and put them up and you can go from there. and we've.
Paul Jeffreys (10:39)
low-cal business.
Uh-huh.
Okay, all right. Well, it sounds
like you've got them off to a great start. Are they interested in forestry as well?
Clint Ebert (11:03)
I have one that wants to be a forester. The other one does want to be a petroleum engineer, but one that wants to be a procurement forester one day.
Paul Jeffreys (11:11)
Well, they're going in completely opposite directions there.
Clint Ebert (11:13)
Yeah, completely
different ways. Yeah. ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (11:15)
So are
they gonna follow in your footsteps and go to Oklahoma State?
Clint Ebert (11:19)
Possibly. I don't know if it will be Oklahoma State or somewhere, but yeah Yeah
Paul Jeffreys (11:22)
Okay. Okay. All right.
Yeah, that's typically my son. I went to school at Mississippi State. My son wanted to go to State as well. My two daughters wanted to go to Mississippi State, but unfortunately, State did not have a nursing program. So they opted to go to another school. But yes, it's funny how the children follow the parents there.
So going, jumping back into forestry and you know, what attracted you, I guess I could say what attracted you to, you know, genetics and working with, you know, working with us and what we do here at ArborGen.
Clint Ebert (12:01)
Well, you know, as it relates back to my ranch or anything you do, genetics are so important. I mean, it's, it's so much easier to have the desired product or the desired outcome when you start with great genetics, whether it's in cattle, whether it's in race horses, cutting horses, trees, anything that you have. If you start with a good genetics, you've got a much better outcome for your desired product. I mean, most of it doesn't happen just by accident. There's a.
there's a reason behind everything, you know, especially when you apply it to your farm. And it's so much easier to see in cattle because I can apply better genetics today and see the outcome in about 10 to 11 months on my herd. You know what mean? But with trees, it's a little bit longer term. It takes you a little bit longer to see the outcome of them. But starting with good genetics is the key to everything. I mean, because the beginning of it is... ⁓
so much of a predictor of the final outcome of it. It's a step one to doing it right.
Paul Jeffreys (12:58)
I think
that was a really good point you brought out there is people, when they're looking into reforestation and forestry and what we do here as private landowners, sometimes people are focused so much on the beginning and the cost of the beginning of the process. And they're not as much focused on the end because it takes so long to get there. mean, look, we're talking about, you know,
sometimes 25 to 30 year rotation, depending on what area you're in and what markets you have. But, ⁓ you know, sometimes people look at it as, well, I'm already up in years and I'm not going to see the next harvest off of this property. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to landowners that are, you know, they're getting up in their twilight years and they're looking at it with that approach.
But you're saying that, you know, that approach is really backwards, that it needs to be, everybody needs to be focusing on that end game, is that correct?
Clint Ebert (13:59)
I agree with that, do, because when I change genetics, we'll just say for a cattle herd, I can change the genetics on a bull and maybe increase my pounds per calf by 15 to 20 % in a year's time. And that's the same way with trees. With the new trees and the new sources that we've got growing, you can increase your percentage at the end of your harvest. You might have 20 % more and even in a shorter rotation than what you normally would.
Paul Jeffreys (14:20)
Uh-huh.
Clint Ebert (14:27)
without good genetics and that's so valuable.
Paul Jeffreys (14:29)
Now we're talking about cattle now and talking about the increase ⁓ in weight. And that's the same thing as increasing yield in forestry. Is that keeping your other constraints? Is that keeping everything constant and you're just changing your genetics in the bull that you're seeing that? Okay.
Clint Ebert (14:46)
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Paul Jeffreys (14:49)
Yeah, some
people sometimes say people get a misconception and they say, well, you changed the genetics, but you also changed this and you also changed that. And while that is, that is a, you know, that is something that's that, that a landowner can do. But still that, that genetics just by itself can have a significant impact on your own, the quality traits.
Clint Ebert (15:12)
Yes, yep. And it's whatever you're looking for. As far as wet passes down, there's different genetics in cattle. And it's much like the trees have different genetics. If you're looking for more poles, you're looking for straightness, or volume gains, or limb diameter, I mean, you want to breed or grow to those genetics that suit your market the best.
Paul Jeffreys (15:34)
Right, right. So let's compare that back to cattle again. What are the quality traits in a cow and with a cattle compared to the quality traits in timber? Like, you know, we were talking about, like you just mentioned there, the quality traits in forestry with straight stems, forking, you know, what's, how does that compare in with cattle?
Clint Ebert (15:53)
In cattle, we talk in cattle by weaning weight. We talk in cattle by birth weight. We talk in cattle by marbling at the end of the processing. Some bulls have maternal traits. So it's kind of a little bit different production based off of where you want to go with your herd. If you're wanting one for weaning weights or pounds across the scales, it might be one genetic bull. If you're wanting a bull for maternal traits that has a high milking quality,
it'd be a different bull you put on a different group of cows so that you might keep replacement heifers out of them. So, you know, it varies a little bit more. There's a bit more variability in cattle, you know, as far as what you can do with that, you know. But most of us look at a weaning weight and birth weights are important to both. To me, it on if you're breeding to a cow, you know, or a heifer, you know, depends on what you're covering them with.
Paul Jeffreys (16:44)
So let me ask you this, do you also keep up with the genetic background pedigree of the heifers as well?
Clint Ebert (16:50)
Mostly, yes, I do.
Paul Jeffreys (16:51)
Mostly, yeah. Kind of
like our MCP pines where we know the genetic background and the pedigree of both the mother and the father. It's kind of like doing the same thing with cattle.
Clint Ebert (17:03)
Absolutely, absolutely. Because the mother will pass good traits along to our bad traits. If you have one that's not a good nurturer mother, you know what saying? She'll pass a lot of times to pass that on to her daughter. So you won't that.
Paul Jeffreys (17:08)
Okay.
And that's genetic.
is passed on through genetics. Wow. That is what I would have thought would have been a learned behavior is genetic there. That's incredible. That is really interesting. I think you and I could sit here and talk about cattle all day long, because it's something that we both have an interest in, but getting back to forestry and everything. So you're in, you're going to be...
You live. Where is it that you live now?
Clint Ebert (17:43)
live in Southeast Oklahoma. It's just south of Idabel It's about five minutes from Texas and five minutes from Arkansas. It's right here in the very corner of Oklahoma.
Paul Jeffreys (17:52)
So you are
very strategically located for us. Yeah. Okay. Well, good. Well, great. Talk to me a little bit about the forest industry that's there in your area and your markets and how it relates to what you do and ⁓ to your everyday process.
Clint Ebert (17:55)
Yes, yes, yes,
We've been real fortunate in Southeast Oklahoma. We've had a great timber market for several years. We truly have. We've had a, Weyerhaeuser played a big influence in here. ⁓ They've had two saw mills, one in Arkansas, one in Oklahoma that they're currently running. There's a large paper mill here that consumes one of the largest brown paper mills in the world. When I worked with this one, I worked at there at the time it was the largest. think it might've changed here recently since some new paper mills have come online in Brazil and different stuff.
Paul Jeffreys (18:15)
Mm-hmm.
Clint Ebert (18:38)
But at one time it was the largest brown paper mill in the world. And then we also have OSB mill here. So we've been real fortunate to have a good market now. Markets change consistently, they always do. So you see the highs and the lows. I went through the low of 2008 where the housing regime kind of went out and it had a negative impact on the market. And the market seems to be...
stable at best right now, I would say. So, I mean, there is some changes in the market. So, but that's where genetics come into play so much more important. You know what saying? If you have the top of the line, it's the same way of the cattle market. When you carry your calves to the sale, if you have the best calves to sell, you're guaranteed the best price. You already paid for your genetics for the cattle and they're to identify those. You know I'm saying? So.
Paul Jeffreys (19:05)
Mm-hmm.
Clint Ebert (19:28)
And same way with your trees, when you're growing a higher quality tree, you're shortening your rotations on it. You've got better limb size. You've got a better straightness, less forking, because that's what you want at the end of the day is a higher desired product to put you into a higher class. that you get the best value out of your land because land produces a certain amount of value per acre. So the markets are what they are. You don't have a lot of control over those.
Paul Jeffreys (19:42)
All right.
Clint Ebert (19:54)
But whatever market you sell in, you want to be at the top of your game. so whether it's land, cattle or timber.
Paul Jeffreys (19:54)
Right?
So you used a really
good term there. You said creating value. you know, like with your going back to your cattle, when you introduce new genetics into your herd, you're doing it to create value for, to create value for your commodity or what you're selling at the end, your calves there at the end to get a better price for those. And the same thing goes for forestry. So your background in ⁓ procurement with Weyerhaeuser or there in your area.
What were some of the traits? Now, did you, when you bought stumpage, did you, were you buying for a sawmill or were you buying for a pulp mill or just all of the, all of the, the, the mills in the area?
Clint Ebert (20:41)
When I began my career with a Weyerhaeuser there, was buying, actually the Weyerhaeuser was really dominant in this area. We had a hardwood mill, we had a saw, a plywood mill, we had a lumber mill, and we had a pole mill, all at one facility pretty much. So you could bring in about any product and we would have a house for it, a home for it to go to. As things evolved, and they also owned a paper mill at that time that International Paper owns but as things evolved,
The plywood mill went out of business. The hardwood mill closed, but they kept the lumber mill and kept the paper mill and later sold the paper mill off.
when you would go out and look at a product today, at the end of my buying forum, we were more isolated or more looking for logs, high quality logs. And that's kind of where they're at today. We'd go out and we'd cruise a stand. We'd give it a like overall value of how we process it, how we, characteristics of that stand, know, when we cruised it, we'd actually do an intense cruise on it.
Paul Jeffreys (21:37)
Mm-hmm.
Clint Ebert (21:40)
the log percentages out of it would range on every stand. The age of it was important. The density of it was important. The limbs on it were important. How that it was going to be limb, just this form class, the structure of the tree, just the overall appearance of the stand. There's times, and I could take you to stands and show you that produced a lot of volume, but produced a very low quality product.
Paul Jeffreys (21:50)
Right.
Clint Ebert (22:06)
from older genetics that we've had out there. I mean, just the, didn't have the capability of making a high quality log, so.
Paul Jeffreys (22:13)
Right. It just wasn't there. wasn't in the pedigree of what was there. Right. Right. So he was talking about those quality traits and everything. you know, what, and talking about the higher, it had a very high volume, but it was probably low valued because of its quality traits. So what traits would you, I mean, when you were going out and you were looking to procure
Clint Ebert (22:17)
Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (22:39)
⁓ logs to feed your meal. What would you say was the most important trait that you were looking for when you went into that stand?
Clint Ebert (22:47)
The most important trait we was looking for was probably the size diameter and the straightness of it. Just the appearance of the tree, know, just the quality of it. Cause you could look at it and tell pretty quick toward that had any log availability in it or not, you know, it's just, it's hard to put a words to it because you can go out and see it. could walk through you with stands and show you this tree would be better. This tree would be better.
Paul Jeffreys (22:52)
Mm-hmm.
Clint Ebert (23:09)
mainly it's the appearance and the size of the tree. You know what saying?
Paul Jeffreys (23:14)
Right.
So the straightness, so, you know, it's kind of like I've said in the past that you can always put a saw log through a pulp mill, but you can't reverse that process. You cannot put a pulp wood log through a saw mill. Basically what I'm saying is, is if that log isn't straight, you're not going to get a straight board out of it.
you're, you're not going to be able to cut. mean, our sawmills today that are running so efficiently in the United States, they're the most state of the art sawmills and they're just constantly getting better. And those sawmills, have new now X-ray machines. have a merchandising machines. have processes that maximizes the, ⁓ product that they can get out of each individual log. But let's face it, if that log isn't straight, it, there's no amount of.
twisting turning that that machine or that computer can do to fix that problem Yeah, I mean that is just that is one of the that is just ⁓ people I Don't think people a lot of times they understand just how important that straightness is and you know today with the genetics that were that we have you know, we have trees that have straightness scores that are
Clint Ebert (24:09)
Offset it. Yep
Paul Jeffreys (24:27)
vastly superior to the genetics of old, like you were just talking about. might be great yielder. It might be a great, just like going back to cattle, the calf it produces may be a great, as far as putting on weight, but it may have some other characteristics that just kill its value in the market.
There's no way that you're going to be able to get a top, what's the word, a top value for certain things because of that.
Clint Ebert (24:59)
Right.
Yeah. You know, and that's like the timber business. I mean, that's when we would go out and we would cruise every track. The reason why you cruise it was one to determine volume on it and the other one was to determine quality, you know, and when we cruise it, basically put just a standard or, you know, a grid across it where that you cover the entire ground. You know, you see every aspect of the deal and you kind of weight each tree puts a value on it. And,
Paul Jeffreys (25:12)
Right.
Clint Ebert (25:26)
gives you a better idea of what's gonna be out there. So like you said, you can't take a poor quality tree and make a high quality board out of it. and at the end of the day, that's what we were looking for was how do we capture volume or not volume so much, but value on our products? How can we help the mills be more successful and identifying your right markets?
Paul Jeffreys (25:36)
All right. Right.
So let me ask
you this, so when you were procuring wood for the mill in your previous career, were you working primarily on company land or were you working with private landowners in your area? You did both. So you had a lot of experience working with private landowners.
Clint Ebert (26:05)
We did both, Both.
Yes, most of mine was with private landowners. Yeah. One of the procurement that we'd buy. And that's why every track was different. You know, you had to go out and spend a lot of time with it to look at it, to see what was on there. You know what I mean? To see the value of the track.
Paul Jeffreys (26:14)
Okay.
You know, I think that's one thing that I value so much with what I do in my day-to-day job is working with private landowners like ourselves and, you know, trying to help them create higher value for their private property that they are going to hand down to their next generation. And hopefully those private farms will remain private and will remain with the, you know, what we call the non-industrial private forest landowners or NIPF landowners.
like ourselves, hopefully those, you know, those are lasting legacies. Those farms have been in families. I have a farm that's been in my family for seven generations. And, you know, that's a legacy that goes a long way with what we do. But also, you know, there is a working, you know, I find it to be...
rewarding and I also find just being honest with private landowners and the transparency because I can relate to them so well. You know, talk about your interaction there that, you know, working with private landowners.
Clint Ebert (27:26)
You know, one of the biggest thing with private landowners, I love spending time with them and talking to them and seeing their perspective because everybody's desired outcome is different. You know what saying? Some people might want a more aesthetic value timber. They might be more into water quality. They might be more into wildlife. They might be more into growing timber or producing money, or they might be more into a legacy. You know, I want something that I can leave my kids that they're proud of. So when I sit down and talk to my landowners,
The biggest thing is I try to find out what their goals and their objectives are, what they want to do with this land, what's their vision with it. And then I try to help them work towards that, know, where they hire standard genetics. I mean, we plant lots of wildlife trees too, and we grow lots of hardwoods and different ones. So, you know, everybody's ⁓ objective is a little bit different. You know, some people might own 40 acres that they want to pass on to their kids forever and have a place they can go and just spend the day, you know.
Paul Jeffreys (28:03)
Alright.
Clint Ebert (28:23)
And that's okay because that's great too. And other people might be strictly, how can I get the most value out of my property as quick as possible for us produce the most saw timber or the most poles or whatever value it is. So every landowner's objective is a little bit different. They seem to have the same, most of them wanna do a little timber, a little wildlife, a little this.
It's kind of a blended objective on some of them. So I just help them reach their goals. So that's it.
Paul Jeffreys (28:53)
Yeah,
I think that's the number one question that in every forestry program, it doesn't matter what school you go to, the number one question that you ask the landowner is what are your objectives? And all of those are going to be different. But there's also good ways to integrate multiple objectives. Like, know, used to, when I started out in forestry, the number one objective was revenue from timber production.
And now we are getting into where that is becoming an equal objective with wildlife management or even a secondary objective in wildlife management and enjoyment, family enjoyment, aesthetics being the primary objective. But there's always a way to integrate both and you can have both.
You know, it's just always able to, you know, I've always said that a healthy forest, regardless of what you're managing for a healthy forest is going to be, it's going to take care of all of the goals, whether it's wildlife and let's face it, you know, whether we're talking about large game, small game, wildlife, you know, some people want to manage for,
birding, some people want to manage for ⁓ hunting. But as long as you keep the timber healthy, that other stuff is going to come into, it's going to fall right in line.
Clint Ebert (30:14)
I agree.
Paul Jeffreys (30:15)
Yeah.
So, well, that's interesting. So, with your expertise in working with private landowners, so you probably had a built a lot of trust with landowners in your area.
Clint Ebert (30:26)
Trust is key with everything that you do. mean, you gotta be held accountable and have the value that you trust someone. You know what mean? Because trust, if you lose their trust, you've lost everything with them in my opinion. And that's how you build strong forest and strong relationships. And helping them, giving them good advice, helping them work through stuff, having them have a product that or a stand of timber or a track of land that they're proud of. So, and trusting that
Paul Jeffreys (30:33)
You're right.
Clint Ebert (30:54)
you're truly got their best interest in mind, you know, because as a procurement forester, a lot of times you had to go out there and, you know, you're buying for a mill or something, but they have to trust you with their land. And they went to several logging jobs and they've seen a track that didn't look like something they wanted to have done on their land before. So you educate them and then they had to trust you to be able to produce what you promised them and trust is everything. So.
Paul Jeffreys (31:22)
Yeah, I mean, if you can't trust somebody, then you don't have anything to build on. all right, well, that's interesting. So would you monitor the loads of logs? Did you also work at the mill? And would you see them coming into the mill as they were being brought in? OK. OK.
Clint Ebert (31:41)
Yes, yep, yep, we monitor, yep, yep,
yep.
Paul Jeffreys (31:44)
And
did you, would you, as the trucks were coming in, would you notice any traits of, let's say, you know, traits that were, for lack of a better word, that would cause trucks to get turned around at the mill or get docked because they did not meet quality traits?
Clint Ebert (31:59)
Absolutely. There's, there's all kinds of docs and turnaround deals at the mill, uh, you know, crooks, stems, sweeps, uh, anything that has excessive knots on it. Knots is a big thing with a mill. So they actually do log quality rollouts. spent several days, uh, when I was contracting in my beginning with a, a Weyerhaeuser or we would actually bring in a log truck unload it
roll out the entire load of logs, measure the length of them, measure the top diameter, the butt diameter of it, and basically look for any defects within that log. Whether it's like a fork or bad knots or a crook or a sweep or something that you might not be able to see now. Like you said, they got a lot of scanners that when a log truck shows up, they're able to scan that load and look for imperfections within it. You know I mean?
So in like West Frasier, I know they've got one that's similar to that. So, still does the rollouts. They still have a contractor up there that rolls out. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's a certain percentage of the wood that they buy just to kind of keep a check on what's coming in. So genetics matter. I mean, when it comes to that, so.
Paul Jeffreys (32:58)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
So
let me ask you this. Back in my days when I was teaching ⁓ at Mississippi State and we would have an exercise at a mill we would go out and kind of similar to what you would say there, roll out logs and measuring the length and all of that. we would, it's basically what was called log scaling. And I don't know if you're familiar with that term of log scaling, but we would go out and we would.
scale logs to basically check the volume and check for defects and everything like that. But we would also measure the form class of the logs. Did y'all look at the form class?
Clint Ebert (33:50)
Yes, but not as it was more of a defect areas that we was looking at. So just the defects on it. So, but that determined they would use those numbers a lot for putting up like the cubic foot, perennial foot and stuff whenever they would bring wood in and how many pieces was on it. We'd know the weight, we'd know the stem count. So they did use that as some of their metrics later on. So, so.
Paul Jeffreys (33:54)
Okay.
Right. So
you mentioned something earlier also about limb size and you know, we know that that larger limbs create larger knots, which creates defects in wood. And we also know that limb size, limb taper and limb, limb angle, I mean, is controlled by genetics. And would you see a large variation in that as you went, as you saw logs come in?
Clint Ebert (34:35)
Yes, you would, especially like on native stands, natural stands and the first set of genetics that come out. Yeah, we've learned a lot. We've learned a lot over the last 30 years in genetics. know, I don't know when you first started, when I was in college, they said like a rotation was a 40 year rotation. Is that kind of what we were, I was taught? Well, as soon as I got into the industrial side of it, through Weyerhaeuser and stuff, we started trying to shorten. The first thing they wanted to do was shorten the rotation.
So like Weyerhaeuser was at a 27 year rotation, typically now 26 to 28 year rotation. And as that happened or evolved, then I started working on quality. We started trying to work on quality and genetics and limb size. We realized that there was other factors besides just shortening the rotation that could add value to our stand. So could add value to your timber, your property. So, yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (35:23)
Right. Well,
that is really interesting. That's really incredible. I'd like to welcome you again to the ArborGen Reforestation Advisor Team. I think we're going to have a lot of great years working together and everything. just as an introductory to the landowners, consultants, foresters, timber buyers, everybody in your area,
Clint Ebert as the ArborGen Reforestation Advisor for Oklahoma and Arkansas. you're going to primarily be working out of the Bluff City Arkansas nursery. And you have already jumped out to a fast start with, ⁓ meeting people in that area.
Is there anything you would like to say to everybody as an introductory to again, to introduce yourself to the landowners in that area?
Clint Ebert (36:14)
I'd just like to thank, you know, the team, ArborGen team. I mean, it's a great opportunity. I mean, I really am looking forward to working with new landowners across Arkansas and stuff. So it's a great, great state to work in, even in Oklahoma. You know, Oklahoma, we're kind limited to the Southeast corner of it here. It's a small portion, but Arkansas has got a much ⁓ bigger area and there's lots of new people to meet out there. So I look forward to meeting each and every one of you. So reach out to me and get in contact with me, or I'll try to get in contact with you either way.
Paul Jeffreys (36:43)
All right.
Clint Ebert (36:43)
forward
to hearing from them.
Paul Jeffreys (36:45)
Well, I'd like to also tell everybody that if you would like to get Clint's contact information, please feel free to visit our website at ArborGen.com. And I would like to thank everybody for joining us today for this edition, this introductory edition of the ArborGen TreeLines podcast. If anybody out there would want more information about our
genetics or forestry in general, please reach out to us, find us on the website and feel free to contact us anytime. With that, I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys and thank you again for joining us for this edition of the TreeLines Podcast.