Fools Anthem

It's the inaugural episode of Fools Anthem, where two fools muse about their love of music -  discovering, listening, watching, creating, performing, and perhaps most of all just talking about it. Our hosts playfully deliberate and critique the music that helped shape them as burgeoning musicians, and discuss how it keeps them inspired to this day. 

John teases out the topic of the first episode by giving co-host Rich three cryptic clues. Initially stumped by the hints, Rich is reminded of their early days in highschool and their connection to the song "Nirvana".  The conversation goes into the nuances of the song in keeping things raw and real, and the influence of the band, the music, and the broad impact of the music industry to steer a band's direction. They delve into the rationale of having cover songs on an album, and John shares a story about coming across a long, lost, promotional Cult beer can. The episode concludes with reflections on the lasting appeal of The Cult's music and a teaser for future episodes.



Creators and Guests

Host
John Swick
With a passion for intricate rhythms, you can find John joyfully practicing complex drum patterns or playing his favorite guitar licks.
Host
Rich Ramirez
Rich's connection to music started at age 7 when he picked up the guitar.
Producer
Michelle Ramirez
Does magic behind the scenes.

What is Fools Anthem?

A fresh and fun podcast that captures the musings of two fools who live for music. Plug in, turn it up, and enjoy a backstage pass to the stories and sounds that deserve the spotlight.

John Swick (01:03)
All right, all right, here we are on the very first episode of Fool's Anthem. We're glad that you're listening to this. I'm here with my old pal, Richard Ramirez

Rich (01:12)
Hello

John Swick (01:13)
I mean, that is, he's very old. I haven't known him very long,

Rich (01:16)
Yes.

John Swick (01:17)
only since 1987 or so. So we're here to listen to some music and talk about it. And we...

drew straws and I'm going first. So I picked the first song. This is a tune that I'm pretty darn sure Rich knows all about. I'm going to try to start out with little cryptic here and throw out some clues.

Rich (01:37)
I'm ready.

John Swick (01:38)
Are you ready?

Rich (01:40)
Yes.

John Swick (01:41)
All right. This was an album that was released on October 18th of 1985. Yeah, know shit, They had formed in Bradford, England in 1983 and went through a couple name changes, by the time they got to this...

their second album, certainly no sophomore slump because I think they were really hitting the stride. And I picked this for reasons I will get into very shortly, not because I think it's the greatest song or by the greatest band or even my favorite album by them. But I think since this is sort of like the kickoff episode, this one fits in the scheme of things because it's really something that affected me when I first started playing the drums in eighth grade or whatever the hell it was.

Rich (02:24)
I'm trying to think. I think you've stumped me already. they're English.

John Swick (02:29)
They're English. This is a band that I didn't see live until like, I don't know, 2018 or something. So I know that we did not see them together. been to 500 million.

Rich (02:38)
Well, I can only think it's

John Swick (02:39)
Close, but really not close at all. The song that I picked here, the name with a band that became very popular about 10 years later, I think.

And perhaps the most vital clue is that this is a band you and I covered in our earliest days of playing in the living room you know, probably the first song we ever played in front of people at a high school battle of the bands.

Rich (03:07)
Oh man, mean, because it couldn't be... I mean, it's not the Sex Pistols because the date is...

John Swick (03:10)
How high were you during that show?

man, we did play them that night. No, what I picked was the opening track off the second album from The Cult, which is called Nirvana. But the reason, as I alluded earlier, it's not the greatest song they've made. It's not even probably their greatest album. Not my favorite band in the world, although I do like them a lot. But the reason this kind of holds a special place with me is if you think about the records you're listening to when you

Rich (03:26)
should have known it.

John Swick (03:47)
first started playing your instrument. had to be this just like uncanny combination of cool music, but it had to be something that your mind could grasp, your totally just primitive mind. me, it was like ACDC, Van Halen, The Cult, and I'm not gonna put you guys through any ACDC or Van Halen songs on this show right now. So this was one that I would just put on the headphones and play along to from start to finish. I, know, by...

13 years old or whatever I could play this song from start to finish. But on a completely trivial note, what I think was totally rad was this is one of the few albums that just starts out with the drumsticks counting off four. you know, we're allowed to play little snippets here and I'm going to play this little snippet of the beginning of the song and listen to the count off because it's rad. And a lot of people probably would have cut that out and it just kind of keeps it raw and real. So listen to this.

Cool. That wasn't much, but that's kind of what we can play for you right now. So what was the first time you heard this album?

Rich (04:59)
Yeah, I know, that's awesome.

well, yeah, when when was it.

John Swick (05:05)
It was only a century ago in the 1900s.

Rich (05:07)
I know exactly.

I was totally into the cult when, when they didn't sound like this and this album was a departure from their sound. I had,

What, She Sells Sanctuary?

John Swick (05:23)
was what, Heaven's Gate was no, different cult, sorry.

Rich (05:26)
yeah. And, I remember one of the first 12 inches I bought was the single for Rain And then I have a double opening album of, I think of She Sells Sanctuary, but yeah. so when, this album came out, the second album came out, I was, yeah, just blown away at how the different.

the total different production quality it was and a complete departure from like the psychedelic nature of what the cult were doing and other bands were doing at that time.

John Swick (05:54)
So like a little backstory, I guess, it was recorded at Olympic Studios in London, and the producer was this dude named Steve Brown, whose previous credits included Wham!, The Manic Street Preachers, and ABC. So that was a far cry. You know, he was definitely very British sounding, kind of had that reverbed out guitar. I totally remember when my brother was playing bass and he's all, dude.

Rich (06:06)
Wow.

John Swick (06:17)
He showed me the line, all, this fits with every single Cult song. And he was right, like the dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee. So that would be a pretty easy job, being the bass player for the Cult.

Rich (06:26)
yeah, totally. And I just loved

Billy Duffy and just a huge, I mean, I'm trying to think now what type of, I assumed it was a Gibson like ES 350 or whatever. Yeah. Just that big old white guitar that he played. I've every guitarist that I really truly love only plays Gibson's. And just, yeah, just that, that big sound and

John Swick (06:36)
Some hollow body, yeah.

Rich (06:49)
Who, either you had it or your brothers had it, an actual beer can?

John Swick (06:53)
Dude,

so okay, there was some promo thing, it was a can of Cult beer that my brothers had and at some point through all the moving, I bequeathed it. I had it sitting, I had it sitting in a Tupperware thing in my garage for however many years with all my old tapes and Audio Fungus memorabilia, if there was such a thing, and at some point it leaked. It either exploded or leaked.

Rich (07:13)
Wow.

John Swick (07:19)
So years later, I opened up this Tupperware bin looking for a tape or an old flyer or something, and it was just this nasty sludge of mold. So if anyone ever kept an Audio Fungus flyer from the old days, it's now incredibly collectible because the rest of it turned into dust. But yeah, it was Cult beer from the Electric Session, which is interesting.

Rich (07:29)
no!

John Swick (07:43)
because they actually started recording those electric songs with Steve Brown, who had produced the Love album. And apparently they had been touring the states, connected with Rick Rubin, and he's all, you know, because it was mid to late 80s at that point, and MTV and rock was the thing. So he gave them, obviously, the more stripped down rock sound and the rest is history.

Rich (07:50)
Yes.

John Swick (08:07)
But if you can go on YouTube to this day and find those recordings, there is a version of Love Removal Machine recorded at those original sessions. And you totally recognize the song, but it's very different, but pretty cool in its own way.

Rich (08:19)
Well, that's what I was going

to ask. Like, can you can you purchase that?

John Swick (08:24)
Dude, you don't purchase music anymore? What are you talking about?

Rich (08:26)
I mean, purchase, but can you

listen to the entire Electric Album?

John Swick (08:32)
No, well the songs are different, but there are a few, there are songs that were just never released and then there's things like Love Removal Machine that they kept but re-recorded. So that you can find. And again, it's got the sort of like, you know, more reverbed out, more British sounding, new wavy vibe to it, if that makes any sense.

Rich (08:51)
Well, didn't in the video, was it the Wildfire video? Or Love Removal Machine where Ian Astbury jumped through stacked cans of that.

John Swick (09:00)
that dude jumped through stacks of beer every night I'm sure. Who knows what that guy was up to. But the personnel was obviously Ian Astbury on vocals, Billy Duffy on guitar, who I think was probably the mastermind of a lot of that music. Killer guitar player obviously and had a lot to do with how their sound direction changed. Jamie Stewart on bass and then the drummer on a couple songs, I believe it was She Sells Sanctuary, was this dude named Nigel Preston who got

Rich (09:02)
Yeah, exactly.

John Swick (09:27)
kicked out of the band or something for bad behavior. And the session guy who played on the record is Mark Brzezinski, I think, who was the drummer for Big Country, if you remember that band. Yeah, so this album kind of breaks a lot of my rules. Normally with like band chemistry, if someone leaves, I could name you 50 bands right now who, you know, a drummer left and was replaced by a technically better player and I just didn't give a shit about him afterwards.

Rich (09:34)
wow.

wow, big country.

Yeah.

John Swick (09:54)
And

the Cult obviously was not about technical capability or anything, but they just were almost more of a project between the singer and the guitar player than a drummer. But even though that's contrary to what I normally like, in this case it's like the music's cool, it's inspired me musically. that was later on in the, I guess, Sonic Temple days or something.

Rich (10:05)
Yeah.

But didn't Matt Sorum...

Yeah, yeah,

but I know he did play with them.

John Swick (10:20)
Yeah, I had kind of tuned out by that point. In fact, when I last saw them, this dude, John Tempesto was playing drums for him. He was like this total journey man who was a smoking, smoking player, but he was like Charlie Benante's drum tech, played in Exodus, played in Testament, played in White Zombie, Helmet. You know, he just had played in all these incredibly heavy bands and now he's been with these dudes for like 20 years. And he was with them when I saw him, the only time I've seen him and he was fantastic player.

Rich (10:45)
Yeah, when

did you actually, because unfortunately, I have never seen them.

John Swick (10:50)
well, I wouldn't recommend starting now. No, I'm sure they're fine. Our buddy Chris saw them recently at some casino.

Rich (10:53)
Yeah, exactly.

Well, also Clem

saw them in Monterey last year sometime. Yeah.

John Swick (11:02)
What, really? Monterey.

B Markets, no I'm kidding. Sorry, Monterey. Well that actually was funny because I saw him at the Mountain Winery in Saratoga, which is kind of considered like, know, where you go on your farewell tours or,

Rich (11:16)
mean, aren't you just sitting down there the whole time

John Swick (11:18)
part's cool, but the place was all probably maybe two thirds full at best. So on one hand, you can get up and just walk down to a way better seat, which was cool, but on the other hand, it's like, oh man, these guys are just slugging it out in front of less than packed houses. Very, very similar to, in some ways, to our experiences playing music, except for they got paid something,

Rich (11:39)
Yes, exactly.

So when did you... When you finally saw them, what year was... saw them?

John Swick (11:45)
No, that was the only time I was seeing him, probably about 2008.

Rich (11:48)
okay. was at the Mountain Winery. Yeah.

John Swick (11:50)
Yeah,

but they were pulling out all these old tunes, which was killer, man, because it just took you right back there. As you know, this stuff is like, it can be time travel in a bottle, and then all of a sudden, you're that 13-year-old kid sitting in your room trying to learn how to play the simplest rock beat.

Rich (12:07)
totally. But I'm just trying to think back like when we should have probably seen him back during, well, at least the late 80s somewhere. I wonder what clubs they would have hit in the Bay Area?

John Swick (12:18)
Oh, dude, I remember when Elektra came out, they played at the Warfield with Guns N' Roses opening up for them. I think one or both of my brothers went to that, maybe we'll have them on someday and tell that story. But I was not there because I was probably 14 and God knows what I was doing. So, they definitely came around at other times. Sonic Temple was a huge album. I'm sure they played the Cow Palace or something, but at that point...

Rich (12:24)
Wow.

Yeah.

John Swick (12:44)
$15 ticket price scared me off or whatever it cost to see him back in the day.

I don't want to speak for you, but At that time, when they really hit the peak of their popularity, I was kind of more into the underground metal stuff and probably thought they were, you know, not quite heavy enough. the greatest thing about them was also not the greatest thing about them was that they just kind of straddled all these genres. They definitely hit all the buttons for the rockers, the goth people, new wave people.

A lot of the metal bands really liked them a lot just because it's something a little different.

Rich (13:16)
yeah.

Yeah, no. they were, yeah. And I think those first three albums were pretty good. well, for me, like if it is raining, I will put on Rain among other songs that have the word 'rain' in it. And just how easy, like you said, the songs on that electric album.

John Swick (13:28)
Hahaha

There are many.

Rich (13:38)
were to play and learn as a kid trying to figure out how to play music and you're just thrashing away. Also kind of weirdly, I mean, even though I knew about ACDC obviously at that point, but I was still more of like an English New Wave sort of kid,

the Electric Album kind of pulled me around to ACDC. Growing up at that point in time when I was starting to get into guitar, ACDC were already, you know, they were at their peak.

John Swick (14:06)
they had made their best music eight or nine years ago.

Rich (14:09)
I wasn't into someone that was already famous But listening to that Electric Album and then,

I would go back and I'm like, my God, this is ACDC. This is the original stuff. Yeah, it was just Ian Astbury always had such a great voice. And according to I think both our friend Chris and our friend,

Klem, apparently Ian Astbury to this day can still pretty much belt it out. He still has a pretty good voice apparently.

John Swick (14:33)
Yeah, man, completely. And this is funny to think back now, because we're older guys with a lifetime of experience under our belt. But if you remember just how jaded we were back then, this, yeah, the band kind of sounded like ACDC. And believe me, man, I love ACDC. But at the time, that was old people music. And we made fun of the stereotypical guy with the mullet and the bad mustache and the van that was cruising around listening to Ted Nugent, Lynard Skinner, or something like that.

Rich (14:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

John Swick (15:02)
And that's kind of what maybe we lumped all that in with. And so this was a chance for a band that was still rocking out, still kind of delivering that message, but doing it in a little more contemporary way so that we could listen to it and think we were cool, I guess.

Rich (15:17)
totally. Although, do you

think the guys in the band regret putting Born to be Wild on that album?

John Swick (15:23)
I sure hope so, because

I've heard many bands cover that song and it's never really been good. Maybe that was a Rick Rubin thing? I don't know. Because you know, I think they were going for like a quote, end quote American thing. It was like, you could have stayed there. You could work with the old producer. You have the Smiths, and the Cure, the Echo and the Bunny Men. All these bands were like hitting their prime right about that era.

Rich (15:29)
Like, why?

It could have been.

John Swick (15:49)
They could have very well gone in that direction, but I guess, know, MTV or whatever, they just, they wanted to be the hard rock direction, the Guns and Roses or whatever else was big back then, I can't even remember. And it worked for them.

Rich (16:00)
Yeah, yeah. And

it's also, yeah, it's a safe song to add. It spaces it out a little bit more.

John Swick (16:08)
yeah, you hear all these stories about record companies making decisions, like who knows if they even had anything to do with that?

Rich (16:14)
Yeah, exactly. Well, we

just watched the Bob Dylan biopic last night and it noted how his first album was nothing but covers because that's all the record company would allow him to do. And he was so annoyed with that because he obviously had his originals just waiting to...

John Swick (16:18)
yeah.

Did he get to pick the covers he did at least?

Rich (16:32)
I

John Swick (16:40)
I remember like pictures of Bob Dylan cruising around on a motorcycle. Was he like a rebel outlaw back then?

Rich (16:47)
yeah, to a certain extent, and they definitely had him ride his motorcycle quite a bit through the movie, which made me jealous and longing to hop on a motorcycle.

John Swick (16:55)
nothing says outlaw rebel like Timothy Chamalet or whatever.

Rich (16:58)
Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, getting back to putting the covers on an album, yeah, you never know. Is it the actual artist's idea or is it the producer's idea or just a record company saying, hey, just put something on here that people will be familiar with at least.

John Swick (17:18)
Yeah, that one seemed a little forced because it was like, that's, you we got this new image. We wear leather pants. We're we like Harley's. What song can we pick? I think this is totally off the off track here, but it was like the Henry Rollins show, I think years ago. I want to say Slayer covered that song, Born to be Wild. And it just look, man, you know, I love Slayer, but it sucked hard. It's like why?

Rich (17:26)
Yeah.

wow.

Yeah.

John Swick (17:44)
There's no universe where I want to hear Slayer play Born to be Wild. So in the Cult's defense, there were certainly people that done it worse. Again, not to sound like a snooty music snob or something, but I guess that's what we are.

Rich (17:49)
Exactly.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. Well, that's a great first to pick.

John Swick (18:05)
Yeah, man.

It's got some history, I think, with our musical endeavors, I think for sure. Definitely represents the time we came up in, but perhaps more importantly is you could put that on today and it still sounds good, man. And that's kind of the ultimate test of music. There's so many things that you like for nostalgic reasons, but doesn't maybe really hold water. And there's other ones that you could put on and, you know, maybe you have friends over or maybe you're driving your car or whatever. And it's just like, man, it's...

It still sounds good.

Rich (18:35)
Yeah, no, you've brought definitely it back, the memories, I'm going to put it on this evening before we head out and just listen to it.

John Swick (18:44)
Good, because you're going be tested on it tomorrow morning. Fantastic. Well, I wasn't trying to stump you. I knew you were going to know it for sure.

Rich (18:45)
Yeah, exactly.

That was a great choice, great choice for a song.

Well

you did in the very- because I'm just like, who the hell? English band and second album and name change and-

John Swick (19:04)
You know, one final thought I had about their sort of musical evolution you know, Love was considered like kind of an innovative album. I think that really like influenced bands to do things or sound a certain way. Whereas, you know, then they come to America, they work with Rick Rubin, they put out Electric, rad album, but it's kind of more of an impersonator side of them where they're just trying to sound like this, this dirt and hard rock or whatever you want to call it. So.

Rich (19:18)
Yes.

Yeah.

John Swick (19:33)
I think maybe that was like their last album that was considered innovative. I don't want to say influential because, obviously people got off on their later stuff, but as far as just like, you know, kind of a creative zenith, I guess, which is, yeah, haven't heard this album, put it on. It's a total authentic slice of 1980s. There's rock on it. There's some psychedelia.

Rich (19:47)
Yeah, I would agree.

John Swick (19:58)
for sure, kind of new wave and goth vibes. This song, Nirvana alone, kind of has a really driving disco beat, but there's some sort of syncopated stuff in the bridge section, which we can actually play a little right here.

And then of course, with every song, you gotta have like the million dollar chorus. So maybe we can play 10 seconds of that on the way out.

that's it for our first Fool's

challenge here, where I brought a song to Rich to kind of mull over and reminisce about.

Rich (20:46)
And you

definitely stumped me.

John Swick (20:49)
All right, Stumpy, next time it's your turn.

Rich (20:51)
Yes, it will be. Thanks a lot,

Thanks, everyone.

John Swick (20:54)
All right,

Thanks for listening, y'all. Peace.

Thank you for listening to the long-winded ramblings of two fools who live for music. Love it or hate it, we hope that you felt something because that's what it's all about.

We're just getting started, so please tune into our next episode and we'll do it all over again. Until then, later fools.