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You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
# EP 30 - URS KOENIG
[00:00:39] **David:** [00:00:40] Urs, thanks for joining me today.
[00:00:41] **Urs:** Thanks for having me, David. I'm looking forward to the conversation,
[00:00:44] **David:** [00:00:45] Yeah, I am too. We have kind of been actually in contact over the years, [00:00:50] through, Marshall Goldsmith and Global Coach Group. But you know, we've never really gotten the chance [00:00:55] to kind of dive into why and how did you become a coach?
[00:00:59] **Urs:** right? [00:01:00] That's the million dollar question, right?
[00:01:01] **David:** Yeah,
[00:01:02] **Urs:** So. I [00:01:05] started coaching a long time ago when it was the Wild West in [00:01:10] 2000 and, you know, no ICF, no certification, no nothing. [00:01:15] I transitioned out of an academic, [00:01:20] athletic and the consulting background into coaching. And [00:01:25] so, I mean, there's a longer story there, but the short version is that I looked back at [00:01:30] all the various jobs I held before that.
[00:01:33] As I mentioned, an academic, [00:01:35] so I would coach, mentor, supervise, post grad students. So I enjoyed the [00:01:40] coaching element there. a cross country skiing, a collegial cross country skier in [00:01:45] Switzerland. And when I got more senior and on the team, I was coaching the younger skiers. [00:01:50] So I was sort of. the coaching element there. And then as a consultant, of course, after my [00:01:55] MBA, you know, there's a coaching element to a lot of what we do in consulting as well. So I sort of [00:02:00] all this together and looked at what's the common thread across all the different [00:02:05] things I've done up to this point.
[00:02:06] And coaching sort of bubbled to the surface. And so that's how I [00:02:10] transitioned in, 2000 when I still lived in Australia to coaching.
[00:02:14] **David:** So [00:02:15] before you were coaching, 'cause you were also, you know, you were a un peacekeeper, you [00:02:20] have a very interesting background. Just a, just a quick background [00:02:25] on how you, what you were doing before coaching as well in terms of your, un [00:02:30] background.
[00:02:30] **Urs:** Abso, well, actually, my un background is much more recent. David,
[00:02:33] **David:** oh.
[00:02:34] **Urs:** I, yeah. Yeah. [00:02:35] So I grew up in Switzerland and I. Started geography of all things, and I [00:02:40] pursued an academic career as a geographer. And in parallel to that, I was, as I [00:02:45] mentioned, a collegiate level, cross-country skier, then transitioned [00:02:50] into business. I went and did an MBA did consulting, and then in 2000 I [00:02:55] transitioned into coaching. Ever since I have coached two varying degrees.
[00:02:59] [00:03:00] Actually, right now I'm coaching much less than I used to
[00:03:02] **David:** Hmm.
[00:03:03] **Urs:** 2017. [00:03:05] So what is that now? Nine years ago, I rejoined the military at age [00:03:10] 50 and served as a NATO peacekeeper in the Balkans. And then [00:03:15] in 20 20, 21, so four years ago. I went back and [00:03:20] spent a year in the Middle East for the UN as a peacekeeper. So my un work, my
[00:03:23] **David:** Hmm.
[00:03:24] **Urs:** work [00:03:25] is much more recent.
[00:03:26] So that's, when I already worked as a coach beforehand.
[00:03:29] **David:** [00:03:30] Usually,
[00:03:30] **Urs:** Yeah,
[00:03:31] **David:** usually the timeline is different.
[00:03:33] **Urs:** that's it. You know, [00:03:35] I wrote the book on humility, but, you know, I am not, maybe in many ways not exactly [00:03:40] like the, like, not usually in that way, but yeah. So the [00:03:45] rejoining military at 50, I can tell you David, that was the trip. Like that was quite something [00:03:50] that taught me humility, that taught me a lot of different things. One of the things I love about [00:03:55] going back into a structured environment like that as a coach, [00:04:00] as a leadership
[00:04:00] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:04:01] **Urs:** as a speaker, is to actually live. The [00:04:05] life of my clients, right? It's always very easy for
[00:04:08] **David:** Yeah.
[00:04:08] **Urs:** coaches, you know, as [00:04:10] consultants on the outside to sort of, you know, coach people.
[00:04:13] Not always easy, but like, what [00:04:15] should you be doing and how can I help you and whatnot. But then to go actually back in, [00:04:20] into an org with Matrix Organizations, international M Force, [00:04:25] and live the leadership world of my clients, like, it was super [00:04:30] helpful and I mean, I loved it on many levels, but not the least for the fact that put me back [00:04:35] into hot water, you know, as a consultant, as a coach, and I had to lead [00:04:40] myself and do the stuff that I, you know, preach otherwise,
[00:04:42] **David:** Right, which is, it's a little [00:04:45] bit ironic to me sometimes when I think about it, because a lot of the coaches I [00:04:50] talk to, almost all of the coaches I've spoken to, they all work for themselves as [00:04:55] solopreneurs, as entrepreneurs, right? And so they're no longer in [00:05:00] organizations. But they go in and they do the consulting, they do the coaching within an organization.
[00:05:04] And [00:05:05] so you're doing the coaching and because you have that experience, but then it's been a while since [00:05:10] you've actually experienced being under somebody else's leadership or really being a [00:05:15] leader for other people.
[00:05:16] **Urs:** Yeah, that's exactly, we could talk more about my transition to coaching. So I was [00:05:20] very much guilty David, of, you know, sort of imposter syndrome early [00:05:25] on. Like who am I anyway, like to be able to coach executives because, you know, I never [00:05:30] was a CEO, but exactly. Then going back and actually, you know, into the [00:05:35] military much later, my coaching career was very helpful indeed for the reasons you just outlined.
[00:05:38] **David:** So one thing that's [00:05:40] kind of come across for me is that you know, first time managers, I was actually just reading a, an article [00:05:45] about somebody transitioning into management and how it's completely different from the work [00:05:50] that they did before. So when you become a first time manager and a leader, like it can [00:05:55] be difficult 'cause you're not used to it.
[00:05:56] But for you, going back into the UN as someone with [00:06:00] that coaching experience, with the, the leadership experience, I would imagine you would've [00:06:05] been a, a wonderful leader.
[00:06:06] **Urs:** You have to ask my subordinates. No, look, David, like [00:06:10] honestly, I live and breathe leadership. I really, I love, I [00:06:15] love to write about it. I love to talk about it. I love to coach on it and I love to live it. And by no means [00:06:20] am I perfect leader. And you know, in my book, I outline a lot of the experiences, leadership [00:06:25] experiences I had going back for NATO and for the un.
[00:06:28] But I do pride [00:06:30] myself of. know, being a good student of leadership and then actually applying the [00:06:35] concepts that I coach my clients on when I'm in leadership position myself. But, you know, [00:06:40] obviously, like all of us, by no means do I not make mistakes. There's plenty of things I could have done better, [00:06:45] but, for sure know, if I look at all the various aspects of my work for [00:06:50] NATO and for the UN as a peacekeeper, the team leadership aspect, I really love [00:06:55] because there's a lot of other things, you know, you have to read up on the politics, you need to understand the security [00:07:00] situation on the ground.
[00:07:00] You need to be up on the military knowledge. But the leadership aspect, I really loved.
[00:07:04] **David:** I'm [00:07:05] just curious because you have your subordinates, right? And, in your role, did you kind of [00:07:10] turn off your coaching brain or were you still kind of coaching your subordinates to be [00:07:15] leaders as well?
[00:07:16] **Urs:** The latter. Absolutely. So you know, one of the [00:07:20] measures of success in my book as a leader
[00:07:22] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:07:23] **Urs:** how successful your [00:07:25] team members are and become. In other words, often talk about this concept of a [00:07:30] leadership factory. My success as a leader is measured by how, far my team members go. [00:07:35] And so that is, for example, something so mentoring, coaching, supporting, [00:07:40] holding, accountable tool. So that's something that I very much. Were, what was striving towards [00:07:45] and was quite successful at, actually my team members were very successful and, and went places for [00:07:50] sure. So absolutely did. I always have my coaching hat on David, but at the [00:07:55] same
[00:07:55] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:07:56] **Urs:** also understanding that I'm not their coach, I'm their boss, [00:08:00] and
[00:08:00] **David:** Yeah.
[00:08:00] **Urs:** different things.
[00:08:01] I can apply coaching skills as a leader, but I'm not their [00:08:05] coach. And so I have an agenda as their boss. And you know, I had to make some very tough calls. [00:08:10] I had to let two people go actually. And so as a coach you don't do
[00:08:13] **David:** Hmm.
[00:08:14] **Urs:** I mean, I guess you could. [00:08:15] Well actually that's not true. We fire clients too.
[00:08:17] That's, but, uh, but I don't, have to [00:08:20] fire people from their workplace as a coach, and I certainly had to do that as well.
[00:08:22] **David:** So it sounds like, you [00:08:25] know, looking through your LinkedIn biography, looking at your timeline, you've had a very interesting [00:08:30] life. You know, I feel like your military background, but also you being an [00:08:35] ultra endurance athlete, how do those things inform your coaching [00:08:40] style?
[00:08:40] Or maybe they don't.
[00:08:41] **Urs:** I'm not sure they necessarily inform my coaching style. I [00:08:45] think, you know, if I compare myself to my colleagues, other coaches, I am [00:08:50] definitely a no-nonsense coach. So, in other words, Of [00:08:55] course, I, you know, I just did my recertification through the IF like I am good at, [00:09:00] know, all the, the technical stuff, like the paraphrasing, the empathizing, the, being present with a [00:09:05] client, the coaching presence as we call it. I'm certainly able to do [00:09:10] that and I'm also very outcome driven. So
[00:09:13] **David:** Hmm.
[00:09:14] **Urs:** who are [00:09:15] stuck for a long time not great fits for me. And so [00:09:20] the, alter endurance, the military, if you think about it, is sort of, results [00:09:25] driven and, no nonsense to some extent. And so that certainly comes through in [00:09:30] my. Coaching style, and I've made some mistakes. To be very clear, David, I mean, I think it's one of [00:09:35] my strengths, it's one of my key s strengths. in fact, we can talk about ideal clients and why they [00:09:40] gravitate towards me, but I've also
[00:09:41] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:09:42] **Urs:** I've also been too direct and,[00:09:45]
[00:09:45] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:09:45] **Urs:** gotten into hot water with some, with some clients. So I think, I [00:09:50] don't necessarily think that the alter endurance and the military informs my coaching style, but it's [00:09:55] more sort of what makes up my, personality and then in [00:10:00] turn, my coaching style as well.
[00:10:01] **David:** I see. Okay, that makes sense. So since you [00:10:05] opened up that door, talking about your ideal client, how did you figure out who your ideal client [00:10:10] was? Was it from like, day one, I became a coach and here's my ideal client? Or was it, you [00:10:15] know, a 10 year journey? How was that for you?
[00:10:17] **Urs:** So I know you obviously talked a lot of Coach [00:10:20] David, so anybody claiming they know their ideal clients on day one is [00:10:25] full of, you know what? Right. So let's be very clear, very, very crystal clear. [00:10:30] Nobody knows that. And it's evolving
[00:10:32] **David:** yeah.
[00:10:32] **Urs:** right? So we're
[00:10:33] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:10:34] **Urs:** so [00:10:35] absolutely not I'm just telling you a ideal client profile for me is [00:10:40] actually, and I'm saying it a bit flip here, David, it's the arrogant jerk. And it's [00:10:45] often a male aggressive results driven. We all know these people, [00:10:50] right?
[00:10:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:10:50] **Urs:** no prisoners taken. very smart, very analytical. not [00:10:55] much time for team dynamics or don't suffer fools lightly. [00:11:00] And
[00:11:00] Because of my background, we mentioned in ultra endurance and the military, I can [00:11:05] sort of meet these clients at eye level and then
[00:11:09] **David:** Yeah.
[00:11:09] **Urs:** I'm [00:11:10] able to, you know, at the base, not always, but at the base of times, I'm able to help them to sort of come [00:11:15] around and say, you know what, there's actually a cost to my team.
[00:11:18] There's a cost to me for [00:11:20] how I show up. Right?
[00:11:21] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:11:22] **Urs:** so that is actually my, ideal client. A [00:11:25] bit of a, you know, a bull in a China shop, sort of
[00:11:28] **David:** Hmm.
[00:11:28] **Urs:** That is, uh, I'm being very [00:11:30] blunt here. I'm sorry, but that's how our role and so that's my ideal client. And another ideal client [00:11:35] is actually somebody who needs. A lot of accountability. So [00:11:40] somebody who needs help in sort of getting off their behind and getting stuff done. [00:11:45] So I'm a strong accountability partner, but you know, to come back to your, question on [00:11:50] day one, my coaching evolved.
[00:11:51] When I first started to coach, I career [00:11:55] coaching and I started as a career coach and then transitioned into small business like entrepreneurial [00:12:00] coaching and then started into executive coaching only about six [00:12:05] years into my coaching. And that's been the bulk though of my work as a coach [00:12:10] has been in leadership and executive coaching.
[00:12:11] But by no means did I start there.
[00:12:13] **David:** When you started, did [00:12:15] you think, you knew who your client was going to be, or you were just kind of just [00:12:20] open and just trying anything and everything?
[00:12:22] **Urs:** Well, a bit of both. And I think that's actually, you know, when we're talking [00:12:25] about advice for new coaches, I think we need to, run it on, on two parallel [00:12:30] paths. On the one hand, always thinking about what [00:12:35] resonates, who do I resonate with? and, and more importantly, like who's drawn to me?
[00:12:38] Like who do I work [00:12:40] MO best with? And so really paying attention to when we're working with different clients [00:12:45] where the sweet spot is. So that needs to happen at the
[00:12:47] **David:** Yeah.
[00:12:48] **Urs:** I believe when we're [00:12:50] first starting our coaching, we just need to. it away and do it for everybody. Just like, get [00:12:55] off your butt and just do it and, you know, give it away for
[00:12:58] **David:** Yeah.
[00:12:58] **Urs:** And I certainly did that and [00:13:00] try a lot of different things only by trying a lot of different clients, a lot of [00:13:05] different clients scenarios, and of course all within the realm of being, sensible and, you know, within the [00:13:10] boundaries of what we are actually supposed to do as a coach within those boundaries, of course, try [00:13:15] everything and then really pay attention to who you resonate with and who is sort of drawn to [00:13:20] you.
[00:13:20] And then, you know, those things we crystallize, but they only crystallize over time if we [00:13:25] actually do them and try them out.
[00:13:26] **David:** That also applies to just like running your business, right? [00:13:30] Not just the client, but also with the, the marketing, the creating [00:13:35] visibility and awareness for yourself. Find it like more and more often that [00:13:40] I realize a lot of people just have a fear of kind of putting themselves out [00:13:45] there, and just talking about what they do.
[00:13:46] So for you, were able to kind of just overcome and just, just get out [00:13:50] there.
[00:13:50] **Urs:** Oh, I, well, yeah, but that was hard too. So be, remember it's 2000.
[00:13:54] Had to do [00:13:55] two things. I had to explain what coaching is because nobody knew what coaching was, right? So explain[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] **David:** Right?
[00:14:00] **Urs:** is, number one. then number two, sell me. So I had to sell, and it is still, to some [00:14:05] extent, it's still true, but today, like. Especially in the leadership executive arena, as you know, like, you know, [00:14:10] HR
[00:14:10] **David:** Yeah.
[00:14:11] **Urs:** an executive coach can do in general, right? And so,
[00:14:13] **David:** Right.
[00:14:14] **Urs:** to fight that [00:14:15] apple bat anymore. But I certainly, I had a lot of, had a lot of [00:14:20] self-doubt. had a lot of
[00:14:21] **David:** Hmm
[00:14:22] **Urs:** questions how much value I'm able to [00:14:25] add. And the first three years, I also underwent a lot of personal [00:14:30] transitions, so I moved Australia to the States, so different continent. I [00:14:35] changed careers. So I left my consulting job and decided to start my coaching business, [00:14:40] and I
[00:14:40] **David:** mm-hmm.
[00:14:41] **Urs:** So three major life changes. [00:14:45] All advance you know, like every
[00:14:47] **David:** Yeah.
[00:14:47] **Urs:** it always takes longer.
[00:14:49] It always [00:14:50] costs more. And so the first three
[00:14:52] **David:** Yeah.
[00:14:52] **Urs:** Here in the states when I started my coaching [00:14:55] business, were really, really hard on all levels, financially, [00:15:00] emotionally, also intellectually. And so, you know, these were the days of Thomas Leonard and Coach [00:15:05] Hu and we're doing, you know, classes on the telephone, on the landline and whatnot.
[00:15:09] And [00:15:10] so, it really was a, different time. But no, I certainly, worked hard [00:15:15] on, getting out there. And one of the best things I've actually did was to. [00:15:20] Maybe I told you this earlier, I can't remember. Sublet an office space here in [00:15:25] Seattle in one of the small, in one
[00:15:26] **David:** Okay.
[00:15:27] **Urs:** districts.
[00:15:28] So I got out
[00:15:29] **David:** Yeah.
[00:15:29] **Urs:** [00:15:30] out of my home into the community. And you know, to your point earlier about being out there and [00:15:35] that physically, this was before the internet pretty much, that made a lot of difference in my business. I ended [00:15:40] up coaching a lot of the people I would run into on a daily basis in our office actually, because they're all
[00:15:44] **David:** [00:15:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:45] **Urs:** owners.
[00:15:45] So anyway, that was one of the things that really helped me.
[00:15:47] **David:** Yeah. Well, 'cause I was [00:15:50] gonna ask, because so many coaches when they start out, their advice is go to your [00:15:55] network, find referrals, and do that. But if you are transplanting from [00:16:00] Australia to the US you have no network.
[00:16:03] **Urs:** It was a really dumb thing to [00:16:05] do well or dumb. It was just over ambitious. Right. I
[00:16:09] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:16:09] **Urs:** [00:16:10] smart thing to do is exactly what you're saying, you know, go part-time in your job and [00:16:15] start, you know, in your network, all the rest of it. So no, I had to like build up everything from scratch and it was really [00:16:20] tough.
[00:16:20] **David:** I can't imagine like new home, new country, not even new [00:16:25] home, new country new career and new relationship. I imagine there's a [00:16:30] lot of stress. Did you have anybody, any mentors any other coaches around you [00:16:35] that that were helping you through that?
[00:16:37] Like with all of it?
[00:16:38] **Urs:** Absolutely. I [00:16:40] mean, I, so I'm a huge believer in, you know, if we're a coach, we better have a coach [00:16:45] ourselves. And so, as I from Australia to the States, I [00:16:50] started with a small business coach in Australia. His name is Robert Garish. I think he is still does a bit of [00:16:55] coaching.
[00:16:55] And then as I got, more settled in the states, I worked, with Molly Gordon, who [00:17:00] was a local co-chair, and then over the years worked with a bunch of different coaches. To this day, I have a coach. [00:17:05] I just actually spoke to my coach yesterday. And so, but certainly through that early transition, I [00:17:10] basically looked for people who were five years ahead of me maybe so who started even [00:17:15] earlier and worked for them.
[00:17:15] And that helped me tremendously.
[00:17:17] **David:** I didn't realize it before I started doing this [00:17:20] podcast, but that's probably the number one piece of advice that coaches have is if you're a coach, [00:17:25] you should have a coach.
[00:17:26] **Urs:** Yeah.
[00:17:26] **David:** And it Yeah. Makes a hundred percent sense. So I'm [00:17:30] curious, as you've kind of gone through the spectrum of different types of coaching and different [00:17:35] types of coaching clients, what have you seen, and you've been doing it since [00:17:40] the two thousands, how has the coaching industry changed in your perspective in the last [00:17:45] two decades?
[00:17:45] **Urs:** Well, I think overall it's become, probably too obvious to state, but [00:17:50] more sophisticated. And so it's become somewhat, um. Well, no, [00:17:55] actually I'm not sure. Well, there is, you know, some more legal boundaries about it, but certainly more, [00:18:00] more sophisticated and, and more accepted, in not just the business [00:18:05] environment, in terms of business executive coaching, but like in the wider world.
[00:18:09] And so, [00:18:10] not always been a huge fan of the ICF, but I do
[00:18:13] **David:** Hmm.
[00:18:13] **Urs:** the ICF. So the, [00:18:15] for the worker that they're doing around certifying coaches around making sure that [00:18:20] professional standards are upheld. So that's what I, I see, know, like any other industries, [00:18:25] it's sort of just maturing in a good way.
[00:18:27] I really feel that
[00:18:28] **David:** Yeah. A question I was asked [00:18:30] yesterday too was the median age of coaches. As I've seen that [00:18:35] number, kind of start to drop, like the average age of a coach? [00:18:40] What have you noticed?
[00:18:41] **Urs:** That's a great question. I don't have actually data on that. is there [00:18:45] data that that shows that,
[00:18:46] **David:** I don't know if there's data. Anecdotal, like from my personal [00:18:50] observations, 'cause I was doing all, working with all the, the certifications and [00:18:55] so with the coaches coming through certifications, I just noticed like when I started [00:19:00] when I was coming closer, you know, to now that age started with like [00:19:05] people who were in their fifties in my observation, it looks like it's dropping that age.
[00:19:09] **Urs:** [00:19:10] Well, and so if you think about it line with what I said earlier, that it's. Maturing as a [00:19:15] profession, that would make sense because in the old days, and I was of course the exception because I was relatively [00:19:20] young when I started, in the old days, it was, you needed to be, in your fifties and [00:19:25] either a psychology background or you must have
[00:19:27] **David:** Hmm
[00:19:28] **Urs:** CEO and then you can be an executive coach, [00:19:30] right?
[00:19:30] And so,
[00:19:30] **David:** mm-hmm.
[00:19:31] **Urs:** and this was sort of the semi-retirement, gig. And of course you
[00:19:34] **David:** [00:19:35] Right.
[00:19:35] **Urs:** Marshall, like exceptions who come from academia. But now as it's really more [00:19:40] established as a profession, there certainly makes sense that younger people, are pursuing it as well. Because it's [00:19:45] like anything else, you can really learn it and you don't actually have, it helps to have the background and have, [00:19:50] helps to have the experience. But like in
[00:19:52] **David:** Yeah.
[00:19:53] **Urs:** know, you don't have to be a star [00:19:55] quarterback in order to be a great coach. You can actually coach without ever having been an NFL player [00:20:00] yourself. Yeah.
[00:20:00] **David:** Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. The experience helps, but you can [00:20:05] also just be a really great coach.
[00:20:06] So my question for you now is, through [00:20:10] your long experience as a coach, you know, what have you found to be the most [00:20:15] rewarding thing, rewarding part of your work that you've, you've been doing?
[00:20:19] **Urs:** I think [00:20:20] the most rewarding it was the same at the beginning as it is now, is [00:20:25] seeing a client go through a really meaningful [00:20:30] personal And so being a part of a client's [00:20:35] transformation, whatever that might be, that could be, and I often, by the way, this is a quick aside, David.
[00:20:39] When I think [00:20:40] about what coaching is,
[00:20:41] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:20:42] **Urs:** it really simple. It's two things. It's a [00:20:45] new insight. I look at different lens. I look at the problem through a different [00:20:50] lens, in a different way, and I take action. I do something differently. So a new [00:20:55] insight and an action. And so helping a client, being a [00:21:00] catalyst, being a supporter, being a coach of a client, transformation like that to [00:21:05] this day is. I love that. That is so cool. And then having the client shine. [00:21:10] Like I, you know, I'm the coach, right? And you, and I know this of course, like we're in the background, we don't need the [00:21:15] spotlight. But having the client go on and, and shine, I absolutely [00:21:20] love that. What I always loved about specifically executive coaching, it's at the [00:21:25] intersection of deep, meaningful, personal work, [00:21:30] personal transformation, and
[00:21:32] **David:** Yeah.
[00:21:32] **Urs:** problems.
[00:21:33] So I
[00:21:33] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:21:34] **Urs:** the [00:21:35] fact that, you know, of course, you know, we are not consultants, but we need to [00:21:40] understand the context of the client's work. He's her, her work environment. [00:21:45] So this intersection of interesting business problems and deep personal [00:21:50] transformation, I absolutely love that.
[00:21:51] And so that's, I find that most, most satisfying to this day.
[00:21:54] **David:** [00:21:55] Can you give us a little bit of a example or story of somebody, [00:22:00] that you helped through a transformation? Obviously you don't need to give their names, but, just kind of [00:22:05] explain the, the scenario.
[00:22:06] **Urs:** So I have a, you know, in line with what I said earlier [00:22:10] about the ideal client, I have a number of clients that come to [00:22:15] mind. was in high tech, the other one was in, an outdoor, [00:22:20] retailer. And as I think about it, they were both in, branding, online [00:22:25] marketing, and as I mentioned, Uber smart, very driven, you know, don't [00:22:30] suffer full lightly, left a big wake behind them and a lot of [00:22:35] damage on, on with their team.
[00:22:36] And so helping them with the help of three [00:22:40] sixties. And I do a lot of shadow coaching. So I sit in the back of the room during the [00:22:45] clients meetings or whatever and sort of just observe what's going on, helping them [00:22:50] to gain an appreciation. For the impact that some of their behavior [00:22:55] is having on their team members. This takes a lot of time, but, you know, they're smart [00:23:00] people. When I present them with data, when I present them with, with hard feedback, they were able [00:23:05] to really take that in and not everybody is.
[00:23:07] And the biggest reward out of [00:23:10] all of this, David, is, of these clients I'm thinking about, and, you know, this is not [00:23:15] about my ego, but they to this day say. we did together, you know, 10 [00:23:20] years ago, like that has been transformative for my career because they both have [00:23:25] gone on to bigger and better jobs now at the C level. And one of them, [00:23:30] the other one, I don't know, one of them, I know his family, his wife and his [00:23:35] kids have also commented on how he's showing up differently at home. [00:23:40] So the, the sort of the spillover effect, I know Marshall talks about this as well, the spillover [00:23:45] effect from how I'm showing up at work because of our coach theater into the family [00:23:50] like these are two examples of people that come to mind where I really felt like was a [00:23:55] great engagement and they did exactly what they wanted and needed to do.
[00:23:59] And it [00:24:00] helped them, you know, it, they didn't just do it because it was the right thing to do, it actually helped them be [00:24:05] more successful. Both professionally went on to bigger and bigger things, but also. At home and [00:24:10] personally. So, those are two things that come to mind here.
[00:24:12] **David:** So I have a question in that, the things [00:24:15] that you were working on, were they things that other people saw in them and they [00:24:20] just didn't believe, or did they have this like belief that because of this thing, [00:24:25] I am successful?
[00:24:26] **Urs:** Are you asking the difference between because and despite behaviors [00:24:30] or what are you
[00:24:30] **David:** I'm trying to understand. So it's, maybe it's the same thing. The question, [00:24:35] like, one is did they believe that whatever issues that they had that you were working [00:24:40] on, it was because of those behaviors that they were successful?
[00:24:44] **Urs:** Well, [00:24:45] yes and no. Right? I mean, I, I think you're getting at this. If I'm less of a jerk, then they won't [00:24:50] respect me. Right. So I need to yell at them. Is that what like, that's, that's what often
[00:24:53] **David:** Like,
[00:24:54] **Urs:** Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:54] **David:** [00:24:55] yeah.
[00:24:55] **Urs:** I think the truth is we, because we we were working on this, I mean, we talked about, [00:25:00] you know, I was quoting Marshall them, but quote, you here won't get you there. Understand the difference [00:25:05] between the, because behaviors and the despite behaviors [00:25:10] subconsciously I think they absolutely. know because subconscious, they absolutely thought they [00:25:15] needed to show up that way in order to be successful. But we needed to lift it out of the subconscious into [00:25:20] the conscious and really look at it.
[00:25:22] And, and because they're smart and rational, they [00:25:25] then could see that actually didn't make sense. So they don't actually have to yell at their team members [00:25:30] for team members to do what they asked them to do.
[00:25:32] **David:** Okay, so then like through the three sixties, [00:25:35] you had the data that said, actually this is a problem.
[00:25:38] **Urs:** And they had, [00:25:40] I mean, the best data is the turnover in their team. You just look, you know, there's a [00:25:45] number, it's a metrics turnover in your team. I mean, that's, the best in my book. And then [00:25:50] 360 is a close second. And, you know, they were competitive flow. We can benchmark them against [00:25:55] other people, you know, and whatnot.
[00:25:57] And so, so absolutely. And then also [00:26:00] as we started to develop trust and they started to trust me more as a coach. [00:26:05] feedback based on the shadow coaching also was data that [00:26:10] they could trust. So, sort of, a bunch of different things.
[00:26:12] **David:** And then the other question I had [00:26:15] was, you know, those behaviors, 'cause you said there was an impact on their lives at home, I think people [00:26:20] think they can compartmentalize much better than they, they really can. And so [00:26:25] were, the behaviors that they were doing in the office, were they carrying that over into the home and [00:26:30] so as they got better in the office, they were, what was going on?
[00:26:33] **Urs:** that's exactly right. Yeah. And by the way, I [00:26:35] totally
[00:26:35] I, total bs Oh, I'm a different person at home. Like, come on. [00:26:40] So to some extent maybe, but I actually make it a rule when I do [00:26:45] my 360 interviews. They don't have to, but I ask politely, can I also talk to your [00:26:50] spouse? And not everybody's on board.
[00:26:51] Most people actually are. And so I get a sort of insight a [00:26:55] little bit into what's going on at home. But you're exactly right. I mean the, the behavior that was not [00:27:00] helpful at work, you know, with maybe a few Hs taken off. Also showed up at home, no [00:27:05] question. I think you're exactly right.
[00:27:06] It's very, very hard for us to be two different people at work and at [00:27:10] home.
[00:27:10] **David:** Yeah, so that's, what draws me to these stories of, like coaching, like these [00:27:15] case studies, right? Because the work that coaches do in the [00:27:20] office doesn't just impact the business and that business leader, right? It's [00:27:25] more holistic than that because it also changes them holistically.
[00:27:29] And so [00:27:30] when they're outside of that office space, they take those changes that growth, [00:27:35] that transformation into their personal lives. And so. You are improving the [00:27:40] business, right? you're seeing better metrics. You're seeing better numbers. Most likely, not [00:27:45] just in, retention, but also in, you know, productivity and your bottom line.
[00:27:49] [00:27:50] Right. But also in the home or in your personal relationships. And that's what I love about [00:27:55] coaching. 'cause it's changing people for the better.
[00:27:58] **Urs:** I mean, I often talk about it like [00:28:00] better leaders, better world, right? I mean, it's a bit grandiose, but we can really [00:28:05] make a difference in the world for exactly the reasons you're mentioning. Then we show up [00:28:10] I mean, I experienced this myself as a client as well, right? So when I'm being coached [00:28:15] on something that's hard at work. And then, maybe I show up with some not very [00:28:20] constructive behaviors at work. Most likely they also display them at home, and so it makes a difference at home as well. [00:28:25] Absolutely.
[00:28:25] **David:** Yeah, there's a story that Chris Coffee used to tell about where he was working with the [00:28:30] leader and the leader was saying, you know, he was a complete jerk in the office [00:28:35] and very similar to, the leaders you're describing. And he asked that leader, do you [00:28:40] think you act like this at home?
[00:28:41] He's like, no, never And so it's like, let's call, your family and [00:28:45] ask the guy on the phone they called and his wife laughed at him. He's like, that's [00:28:50] exactly how you act at home. And then he's like, should we call your kids? And he's like, yeah, let's call my kids, same thing. [00:28:55] And so it was that point when he realized, not for the office, but for my family, I gotta [00:29:00] change.
[00:29:00] And so that was,
[00:29:01] **Urs:** That's a great story. And I have something similar actually, if I may quickly, David. [00:29:05] So,
[00:29:05] I had a client who I did a 360 with. And you know how we almost tell our [00:29:10] clients, don't guess who said what, right? In the don't guess who, in the qualitative, [00:29:15] in the open-ended, uh, questions who said what? And they still do.
[00:29:17] And she was convinced that [00:29:20] this one comment that was in there, which was very critical, came from this one guy [00:29:25] at the office who, you know, hated her and she didn't get along with him. And it was from her husband. [00:29:30] The comment was from Exactly. And so it was a very critical, but it was constructive [00:29:35] comment.
[00:29:35] And so, the point is exactly the same that you know that Chris, or that you're making [00:29:40] about Chris's story. It's very hard for us to be different people and we carry our behaviors [00:29:45] across home and work. No question.
[00:29:46] **David:** It's funny because we tell ourselves these [00:29:50] stories of ourselves in the workplace or at home, or even like, uh. What my [00:29:55] business will be or who should be my ideal client.
[00:29:57] **Urs:** Right, right,
[00:29:58] **David:** And you [00:30:00] never really know until you actually look at the information or you test it and [00:30:05] actually try it out.
[00:30:06] Especially when it comes to like the business side of things. Until you go [00:30:10] out and start working with clients, you don't know who you actually wanna work with. ' [00:30:15] cause you, you have a imaginary picture of this would be the perfect client. And [00:30:20] then when you start working with them, reality hits.
[00:30:22] **Urs:** I think that's exactly right. Right on. And And that's [00:30:25] why I tell any new coach, everything at least once, you know, then see [00:30:30] what works for you. Absolutely.
[00:30:31] **David:** For you, when you started your [00:30:35] business right, as a coach. Did you think it was gonna be kind of this [00:30:40] grandiose thing, or were you expecting like the three year, like kind of [00:30:45] trial of growing little by little?
[00:30:47] **Urs:** I certainly didn't think it would be a grandiose [00:30:50] thing, but I also underestimated how hard it would be to be honest.
[00:30:54] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:30:54] **Urs:** [00:30:55] felt somewhere, in the middle. And so, I thought that I would be faster at [00:31:00] the point of, break even and making decent money. Then I end up being, [00:31:05] but I also didn't have any illusions.
[00:31:07] I mean, you know, I wrote the business plan like we did back then, [00:31:10] but I was pretty realistic actually about, you know, what, what's doable and what's not doable. So, uh, [00:31:15] yeah,
[00:31:15] **David:** So for you now, what does your coaching business look like? Or [00:31:20] what does your business look like?
[00:31:21] **Urs:** So, you know, as we talked earlier, my, I don't do much [00:31:25] coaching at the moment. I primarily speak,
[00:31:28] I'm still in leadership [00:31:30] development. As I said, I dig anything related to leadership, I'm still very much [00:31:35] shown to sort of the, behavioral leadership development, including [00:31:40] coaching, that I did for years. So now I am very [00:31:45] selective because I primarily speak when I look at coaching and clients. And [00:31:50] interestingly enough, so I did, as you know, for years, I did the Marshall Goldsmith stakeholders centered, like that's [00:31:55] all I did. And I really believe in the approach, the systems approach to getting the whole [00:32:00] team on board, the shaping perceptions through the regular check-ins, all the stuff that, you know, I drank the [00:32:05] cool at big time, from Frank and Chris over the years.
[00:32:08] No question about it. So [00:32:10] I do a little bit of that. But most of my coaching actually [00:32:15] now, and as I said, it's not very much because I primarily speak, most of my coaching right now is [00:32:20] clients coming back wanting to work through a career transition. Through, and, you know, [00:32:25] I'm getting up there in age, I'm 58, so a lot of my clients or former clients are sort of, you [00:32:30] know, late forties, early fifties, sort of a bit of a midlife thing.
[00:32:34] So what's [00:32:35] next? I've risen up to this level and so what do I want to do with [00:32:40] a second last or the last portion of my working life and how can I [00:32:45] really have the most impact? So a lot of my coaching clients right now are actually sort [00:32:50] of in that boat, so very different from what I used to do for years.
[00:32:53] So that's where things are at at [00:32:55] the moment.
[00:32:55] **David:** How did you move from doing the coaching and writing your book to [00:33:00] doing the speaking now?
[00:33:01] **Urs:** As you know, a lot of coaches also speak. So over the years I've done, you [00:33:05] know, a, bit of speaking here and there. I've done a lot of facilitation. That was one of the [00:33:10] core elements of me. Building my business was to become a [00:33:15] CEO peer group facilitator.
[00:33:17] So I did Vistage chairing for a while, and I [00:33:20] facilitated other industry specific CEO groups and that [00:33:25] really like that hockey stick my coaching business because obviously I then could source individual clients [00:33:30] out of these groups. And so that was very, I love doing it. I'm good at it. And it was very, good for [00:33:35] my business. But when I went back,
[00:33:38] **David:** Can I ask a quick question?
[00:33:39] **Urs:** [00:33:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:40] **David:** How did you get into working with those groups?
[00:33:43] **Urs:** So this was one of [00:33:45] those things where I went to, like a local ICF chapter meeting here in [00:33:50] Seattle, like on a Wednesday
[00:33:51] **David:** Okay.
[00:33:52] **Urs:** house, literally. And it was three other [00:33:55] people there. And me I met
[00:33:56] **David:** Okay.
[00:33:57] **Urs:** wonderful other. Coach, who's now [00:34:00] become a dear friend, and I actually partnered with her for a while and she was part of our [00:34:05] organization that put on these CEO peer groups, and so she [00:34:10] hired me.
[00:34:10] So we developed a relationship and then, you know, and so, because I went to this [00:34:15] random ICF chapter meeting at somebody's house on a Wednesday night at five 30, the [00:34:20] point is like, you gotta get out there. You never know what's gonna stick. And then because I did
[00:34:24] **David:** [00:34:25] Yeah.
[00:34:25] **Urs:** I was able to apply to Vistage, because that's pretty competitive with Vistage.
[00:34:29] [00:34:30] And so, and do that. Okay. Well, and now I lost my train of thought. What was the other thing you asked me about?
[00:34:34] **David:** [00:34:35] So the, the question was like, how did you get into the speaking?
[00:34:38] **Urs:** right. Yeah. So I coached [00:34:40] up until, 2017, like that was my thing full time. I did a bit of
[00:34:44] **David:** Yeah.
[00:34:44] **Urs:** but [00:34:45] I, a coach who occasionally spoke and then I, in 2017. I rejoined the military, [00:34:50] as I mentioned, for nato. And I was in the Balkans for nine months. And then as [00:34:55] part of that, I sort of took a step back, obviously, like figuratively and, and [00:35:00] metaphorically and looked at my coaching my business, my career, my work life. And [00:35:05] quite frankly, David is probably the wrong thing to say on your podcast, but I was getting a little bit bored with [00:35:10] coaching. I'm like, I've done it for 17 years at this point. Like, I got this nailed. I got it [00:35:15] down. So what else can I do? And I, I
[00:35:17] **David:** Right.
[00:35:18] **Urs:** the leadership plan. And so then I [00:35:20] decided coming out of that mission that gonna give this speaking thing a go.
[00:35:23] Let's actually study [00:35:25] the steep speaking business, much like I did with the coaching. Understands how speeches are sold, [00:35:30] how they're bought, how agents play into it, you know, what good stagecraft looks like, what's [00:35:35] good, marketing and sales, all the stuff that we need to do in our coaching as well.
[00:35:38] And then.
[00:35:39] [00:35:40] Between 2018 when I came back and 2020 when I deployed on my next mission, I was [00:35:45] really sort of laying the groundwork for my, speaking business. And then when I came back from my second [00:35:50] mission in 21, then I decided to write a book in order to really jumpstart [00:35:55] my speaking business. And that's exactly what happened.
[00:35:57] So I published a book, which it very well indeed, [00:36:00] Frank Wagner, by the way, wrote me a very nice, testimonial among some other people. [00:36:05] Since then I've really been focusing on speaking
[00:36:07] **David:** I think that's a very like, natural progression that I've [00:36:10] seen before, in other leaders and other coaches' lives, right? Where you do [00:36:15] coaching facilitation, maybe you do the group coaching and then, uh, either you [00:36:20] start doing like, like courses or like bigger groups and then going to more speaking engagements.
[00:36:24] [00:36:25] So, is your, business, like the way you design your business for your coaching and [00:36:30] now for speaking, is it pretty similar in terms of like your day-to-day stuff and then [00:36:35] it's just your doing more speaking? Or is it just, like is it just different [00:36:40] the way you do the business development and marketing?
[00:36:42] **Urs:** Oh, big. Well, okay, so couple of things. [00:36:45] how I spent my days is very different because when
[00:36:48] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:36:48] **Urs:** to do coaching, you know, we [00:36:50] do, also pre COVID of course, lots of face-to-face meetings. I would drive all over town
[00:36:54] **David:** [00:36:55] Right.
[00:36:55] **Urs:** meet people face-to-face. And so when I coached full-time, my [00:37:00] days, were taken up with. Back to back coaching meetings. Right. And so we have coaching [00:37:05] sessions. So, and that I don't have now. And I spent very little, frankly, on [00:37:10] thought leadership. Of course I read on what's going on and I kept myself informed, but I really [00:37:15] wasn't, like I am now a student of leadership because now I need to develop [00:37:20] content as a speaker, right?
[00:37:21] And so,
[00:37:22] That's where the days are different. Now I have, fewer [00:37:25] meetings, but I spend
[00:37:26] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:37:27] **Urs:** time. on research, on [00:37:30] developing new content, on practicing new content.
[00:37:32] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:37:33] **Urs:** instead of having back to back [00:37:35] meetings, you know, I might only speak once, maybe twice a week, maybe I don't speak [00:37:40] for two weeks, but then I speak, you know, in one week twice.
[00:37:43] And so there's is [00:37:45] more flying, more travel, but less day-to-day meetings. So that's, it sort of comes [00:37:50] in, shorter spur, the, now the work and then it's sort of more quiet again, where I [00:37:55] really have to, you know, work on my craft, the presentation skills and the thought [00:38:00] leadership.
[00:38:00] **David:** You find that you're like, the way you've, you set up you know, 'cause we're [00:38:05] talking about like visibility and awareness, right? So people need to know you and know you're [00:38:10] credible, have seen you speak. How do they reach out to you? Do they come in through like a, your website, [00:38:15] a lead magnet?
[00:38:15] You get into a database and kind of do go through the kind of typical [00:38:20] marketing funnel or how does that work for you?
[00:38:23] **Urs:** There's two [00:38:25] overall channels. One is speakers bureaus, so agents. [00:38:30] I am represented by, I don't know, maybe speakers bureaus. That sounds [00:38:35] grandiose, but, you know, you're on their side and, if you're lucky, an agent really has you in [00:38:40] mind and pitches you regularly. So that's one channel through speakers, bureaus and [00:38:45] agents, and the other channel is direct.
[00:38:47] So people, I'm very active on LinkedIn. That's [00:38:50] how you and I connected as well. Again, so.
[00:38:52] **David:** Yeah.
[00:38:52] **Urs:** get inbound stuff through [00:38:55] LinkedIn, through my book. So I
[00:38:57] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:38:58] **Urs:** a number of [00:39:00] inbound, inquiries through the book. And then, you know, do funnel, like in terms of [00:39:05] technical terms, they do funnel through the website, but it's
[00:39:07] **David:** Yeah. Right.
[00:39:08] **Urs:** through agents and [00:39:10] then direct and the outbound is the book. And, and then by the [00:39:15] way, every single speech needs to lead to another [00:39:20] speech. Like that is my goal at least. And so this is the same when you're thinking about coaching clients. [00:39:25] client needs to lead to a referral. And so that needs to be the [00:39:30] goal. And we can't force it, of course, but I measure my success on [00:39:35] stage, by. How many referrals I get from that particular speaking [00:39:40] engagement and maybe takes three years to come for something to come in. But, uh, that is my goal. So it, [00:39:45] needs to be the case that somebody walks away from my speech and going, we are gotta get this [00:39:50] guy to my team. So that's the idea. And, and similarly when we're thinking about, and we're talking about [00:39:55] coaching business here, showing up in a way and detaching them from the outcome, [00:40:00] which is important, but showing up in a way as a coach with my client, that they absolutely [00:40:05] have to tell their best friend how helpful the work is that you do together. [00:40:10] then
[00:40:10] **David:** Hmm.
[00:40:10] **Urs:** to detach as a coach, right? You can't get attached to the outcome because that is very unhealthy indeed.
[00:40:14] **David:** [00:40:15] Right.
[00:40:15] **Urs:** show up in a way that they have to tell their best friend at work, at [00:40:20] home, how incredible valuable the work is that you do together.
[00:40:23] **David:** Yeah, that should always be our goal, right? [00:40:25] We wanna be excellent at what we do or else kind of what's the point of the work, [00:40:30] right? If you're not,
[00:40:30] **Urs:** Yep.
[00:40:31] **David:** I love that because there's a lot of practical things that we've talked about in [00:40:35] terms of, the coaching, but also your business of coaching, right?
[00:40:38] You know, being [00:40:40] in a coworking space where you can just talk to people. It puts you out into a [00:40:45] space where you can network if you take advantage of it, and get to know people and build [00:40:50] relationships, using speaker bureaus and networking through partnership programs. You know, connecting [00:40:55] with other coaches and building relationships and friendships to do projects together.
[00:40:59] [00:41:00] And then your, the point about every coaching engagement, every speaking [00:41:05] should at least line itself up to you getting another job [00:41:10] afterwards. I think that perspective is hugely important because, I feel like sometimes [00:41:15] people, even like when it comes to like emails or just content, it's just like I'm just throwing it out [00:41:20] there and we'll just see without any intention to what's the next thing
[00:41:24] [00:41:25] And that's so important.
[00:41:26] **Urs:** You know, we call it the CTA, what's the call to [00:41:30] action? And let's not be shy. A lot of coaches, are shy, unlike car salespeople, [00:41:35] right? It's a lot of coaches are shy in selling themselves, right? And it's uncomfortable, like you're not selling [00:41:40] a crappy car, you sell yourself.
[00:41:42] And that's scary. I
[00:41:43] **David:** Yeah.
[00:41:43] **Urs:** vulnerable, it's [00:41:45] difficult.
[00:41:45] But we gotta have, to your point, what's the call to action? What's the next step?
[00:41:49] I [00:41:50] mean, I'm not a sales person, like not a sales specialist, but, you know, sales is really, if I [00:41:55] can help you to achieve your goal. Then it's not sales.
[00:41:58] Like I'm, I'm helping in the [00:42:00] transformation. So, it's very genuine.
[00:42:01] **David:** And I think there's also a lot of coaches, [00:42:05] a lot of people in general, when you get inundated, like the car [00:42:10] salesman, that the used car salesman, you see that, you're like, I never wanna be that person, so I don't wanna [00:42:15] do sales. Or you get all the emails and you feel they're so spammy that you're like, [00:42:20] I never signed up for this.
[00:42:21] Why am I getting these emails? I don't wanna do that. And so there's this, [00:42:25] you see all of it and you're like, these are all the things I don't want to be associated with. And so a lot [00:42:30] of coaches just decide not to do any of it,
[00:42:32] **Urs:** right,
[00:42:32] **David:** But how do you build your business like that? And [00:42:35] so, you know, instead of thinking of it as sales or like marketing, the coaches I've [00:42:40] spoken to, I've like, instead of marketing think of it as a relationship.
[00:42:43] You're there to not [00:42:45] connect with everybody. You're just trying to find a few people and build real [00:42:50] connections and relationships with, unless you are being genuine and building a [00:42:55] relationship with them, they're not gonna trust you with their money and want to work [00:43:00] with you as a coach.
[00:43:01] And so that's kind of that perspective for the creating [00:43:05] content or emails. It's connecting with a friend, telling them your insights, [00:43:10] providing value to try to help them, with the things that you've learned [00:43:15] and insights that could help them in their daily life, right?
[00:43:18] **Urs:** I think that's exactly right. [00:43:20] Thinking of it as a, a relationship where you can add value, [00:43:25] and then I have to also say though, David, so that's all true, but sometimes coaches need to [00:43:30] just get out of their own way. Like you gotta actually close the deal.
[00:43:33] At one stage. You gotta actually say,[00:43:35]
[00:43:35] **David:** yeah.
[00:43:35] **Urs:** gonna be $30,000, and like, that's the deliverable. And so you gotta actually ask for the sale at [00:43:40] one stage. And so it still is a, business we're building and if you don't wanna build a business [00:43:45] then, then give it
[00:43:46] **David:** Yeah.
[00:43:46] **Urs:** Um, so, I think there is a, and you know, I've had[00:43:50]
[00:43:50] **David:** There's a fine line.
[00:43:50] **Urs:** Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly right. Well said. Yes indeed.
[00:43:53] **David:** Yeah, you just have [00:43:55] to be able to be vulnerable and, accept rejection if it comes, but you're never [00:44:00] gonna move forward unless you, you put yourself out there to ask the question.
[00:44:03] **Urs:** Yeah. And we better be. [00:44:05] That's the one thing I would say, don't go into coaching as a solopreneur. Like [00:44:10] you mentioned a lot of the people you talked on this podcast, so don't do it if you can't [00:44:15] handle rejection. I'm,
[00:44:16] **David:** Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:16] **Urs:** like it, a lot of people will say no to you. You'll [00:44:20] ask a lot of times and for whatever reasons it won't work.
[00:44:22] And it's not fun. It's certainly not easy at the [00:44:25] beginning when we're just building our business, but it's sort of part of small business ownership. [00:44:30] And so otherwise, you know, we, we can also coach internally, maybe you're interviewing some internal coaches [00:44:35] on this podcast as well, which actually would be interest.
[00:44:37] **David:** Um, mostly it's external. [00:44:40] Well, I, should, try to look for some internal coaches. The, the rejection part. And if you're not willing [00:44:45] to, accept that, that's huge so that's the thing is most coaches don't get into [00:44:50] coaching
[00:44:50] **Urs:** Yeah.
[00:44:50] **David:** build a business.
[00:44:51] They do it 'cause they want to coach.
[00:44:53] **Urs:** They wanna help. They wanna support. [00:44:55] Exactly. Right. That's exactly right. Yes.
[00:44:56] **David:** But you only can coach for as long as you can feed [00:45:00] yourself until you need to make the money.
[00:45:01] **Urs:** Exactly right. You know, the funny thing is, David, [00:45:05] towards the end of my coaching career, this is a little bit of an embarrassing admission on my part, but [00:45:10] I actually got more excited about the sales process. Like, [00:45:15] can I land the soccer?
[00:45:16] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:45:17] **Urs:** it and I go, oh damn, now I have to do the work. So [00:45:20] I, this was late in the game to be honest, but, and that was a
[00:45:24] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:24] **Urs:** quite [00:45:25] frankly to me as well, where I said, you know what? I think I'm getting a bit burned out or, bored with it, so [00:45:30] maybe I should look at something
[00:45:31] So
[00:45:31] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:31] **Urs:** happened to me. I sort of loved it, chased, and then I got the work, I'm [00:45:35] like, now I have to coach. Probably a
[00:45:38] **David:** So.
[00:45:39] **Urs:** admission on [00:45:40] this podcast.
[00:45:41] **David:** No, but it is real. Like we go through our different stages [00:45:45] and we, grow and we develop. And there's nothing that says you have to be a [00:45:50] coach forever.
[00:45:51] **Urs:** right.
[00:45:51] **David:** there's nothing that says like, yeah, why can't you [00:45:55] change? Why can't you do something different? I think that is perfectly normal and want to do [00:46:00] more.
[00:46:00] Right?
[00:46:00] Some people wanna just coach and some people after a while will say, I've done [00:46:05] this for 20 years. I wanna do more impact. I want to change and reach more people. [00:46:10] Right. And I think that's what you're doing right with your speaking.
[00:46:12] **Urs:** Yeah.
[00:46:12] **David:** Before we close, I like to [00:46:15] a end with two questions.
[00:46:17] The first question is, what have you learned [00:46:20] about yourself through this process of, you know, becoming a coach?
[00:46:24] **Urs:** [00:46:25] I've learned that the business of coaching can be very [00:46:30] lonely, and that's very hard for me. Because I'm a solepreneur, I wasn't a partnership for a while. [00:46:35] The fact that some days the only people I talk to are my [00:46:40] clients and maybe a vendor or two, and that's it.
[00:46:43] So not having a team. So [00:46:45] that
[00:46:45] **David:** Yeah.
[00:46:45] **Urs:** very difficult for me. And so I think that's one of the things as people think about going into [00:46:50] coaching, awareness around, yes, you gain a lot of autonomy, you know, cool your own [00:46:55] shots, all the good stuff, the independence, but it can be very, very lonely indeed.
[00:46:59] And so, [00:47:00] so that is one thing I've learned and it continues to be, quite honestly, continues to be a struggle for me. So I [00:47:05] have to manage it, you know, we have to all the networking, the networks you talked about earlier, this is [00:47:10] also part of why I do these missions because I'm back a part of a contingent of a team.
[00:47:14] [00:47:15] So it sort of fills that need. So anyway, that's one thing I've learned.
[00:47:18] **David:** Last [00:47:20] question, is what's one piece of advice you'd give to somebody, who's just [00:47:25] beginning their coaching practice today? Uh.
[00:47:27] **Urs:** Get the reps in, give it away [00:47:30] for free. Coach, coach, coach. know, don't just informally over [00:47:35] coffee. Make it a coaching contract, but it doesn't matter if you get paid or not. Get the reps in. [00:47:40] Coach as much as you can. And spend less time thinking about who your [00:47:45] ideal client is more time actually practicing coaching with different people [00:47:50] that will give you the data to then actually make a better decision of who your [00:47:55] ideal client is.
[00:47:56] So that's, many other things come to mind, but that is maybe the [00:48:00] one big thing, like let's get off hour behind and let's actually go out there and coach.
[00:48:04] **David:** [00:48:05] W thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today and this interview. Yeah, this was just a fantastic [00:48:10] conversation.
[00:48:10] **Urs:** Thanks for having me. I loved it David. Thanks so much.
[00:48:13] **David:** Right. before we close, [00:48:15] how can people get in contact with you if they wanted to reach out?
[00:48:18] **Urs:** So as I mentioned, I'm very [00:48:20] active on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, my name, Kerig, or my website [00:48:25] Kerig. I assume you put this in the show notes as well. U-R-S-K-O-E energy.com. So [00:48:30] either through LinkedIn or or my website is the best way to reach me, or of course by my book.[00:48:35]
[00:48:36] **David:** Okay. Perfect. Urs, thank you again. I really appreciate [00:48:40] this conversation. Have a good day.
[00:48:42] **Urs:** Absolutely. Thanks David, appreciate it.