Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

By lightening up your communication, you can build serious connections.

Humor in communication isn’t all fun and games. According to Alison Wood Brooks and Naomi Bagdonas, levity is one of the most serious tools we have in building successful connections.
Wood Brooks and Bagdonas, both teachers, authors, and experts in the field of communication, recognize how crucial levity is to our professional and personal interactions. “It’s easy to think of [humor] as this extra bonus thing,” says Wood Brooks. “What we find is it’s incredibly core to how people are relating to each other.” Bagdonas agrees: “When there's the presence of laughter in team meetings, those teams are more successful and more creative. Leaders with a sense of humor—not even a good sense of humor—are seen as more motivating, more admired, [and] their teams report being more engaged.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Wood Brooks and Bagdonas join host Matt Abrahams to explore levity as a mindset, or as Bagdonas puts it, “Navigating life on the precipice of a smile.” Together, they share how lightness and humor can break barriers, bridge connections, and unlock the door to better communication.

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Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (04:11) - Talk Tour Insights
  • (05:31) - Top Advice on Asking Questions
  • (07:41) - Guiding Principles for Leaders
  • (10:15) - Importance of Levity
  • (12:15) - Why Humor Matters
  • (14:04) - Letting Go of Comfort
  • (18:44) - Overthinking Levity
  • (20:50) - Creating Space for Levity
  • (24:22) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Alison Wood Brooks
Professor at Harvard Business School; Author
Guest
Naomi Bagdonas
Lecturer, Author, Innovation Strategist, Media Coach

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: One sure way to connect
and to build relationships is to

bring levity into your communication.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

I always look forward to interviewing my
guests, but today I am super-sized excited

to be revisited by two guests today.

Not only are Naomi and Alison
fantastic teachers, authors, and

communicators, they're amazing people.

And I'm proud to have them
as collaborators and friends.

Alright, enough gushing.

Let me formally introduce you
first to Alison Wood Brooks.

Alison is the O'Brien Associate Professor
of Business Administration and Hellman

Faculty Fellow at Harvard Business School.

Alison's research focuses on
the science of conversation and

interaction, and she teaches an
award-winning course called Talk.

Which also happens to be the name of her
new book Talk: The Science of Conversation

and The Art of Being Ourselves.

Alison is also our first
three time guest ever.

Alison and I today are
joined by Naomi Bagdonas.

Naomi runs her own consulting company
where she helps not only organize

high stakes gatherings, but coaches
leaders to be more successful.

She's coached CEOs and celebrities
for media appearances on Saturday

Night Live and The Today Show.

She trained at the Upright Citizens
Brigade Theater and teaches

courses about humor at the GSB
and the San Francisco County Jail.

Along with Jennifer Aaker, she wrote
the only business book I have ever

learned and laughed through called
Humor, Seriously: Why Humor is a

Secret Weapon in Business and Life.

Thank you both for joining me.

This is such a thrill for us to
actually be in person together.

We talk all the time on Zoom and on email.

It's wonderful.

So Alison, I'm gonna start with you.

You are on tour for
this awesome book, Talk.

What has surprised you in terms of
what's interested people the most?

Uh, there's so many good things in here.

I'm curious what has interested
people more than anything else?

Alison Wood Brooks: The content
of the book is based on my

course, also called Talk.

And so I've had such a lovely privilege
of seeing how a lot of people react

to this content over many years, and
I think the lovely people that I've

encountered on my book tour are reacting
in ways that are similar to how my

students have reacted to the course.

A couple things that stand out.

One is about question asking.

I think that just is an
evergreen topic and skill that

really resonates with people.

Both on the asking side, they have so many
fears about asking or hesitations, and

on the receiving end, of annoyance when
people don't ask them enough questions.

And then one other thing that's really
stood out to me on book tour is that

it seems like people really want to
get this in the hands of teenagers.

I know that it's helpful to adults and
executives and people who have fully

developed their conversational skills,
but a lot of parents are co-reading the

book with their teenagers because there
seems to be quite a bit of fear and

concern about kids these days not actually
developing their conversation skills

as, as much and as well as they could.

Matt Abrahams: That was something that was
surprising to me when my book came out,

all the parents saying, hey, my kids need
this, and there's work to be done there.

What is the one big bit of advice
you give on asking questions?

Alison Wood Brooks: Oh, top line advice.

So easy.

Ask more questions, obviously.

Much of the advice that you will read in
this book or hear about on its surface

seems so simple, but when you try and
put it into practice, it's really hard.

So the top line simplicity of
this advice is really important.

Just ask more.

Go into every conversation
with this mindset of, I can't

leave this conversation not
having asked any questions.

I should be pushing myself to
ask on the margin of a few more.

Once you get past that top line advice
of ask more, then you can get into the

nitty gritty of what is a good question,
in what circumstances, and what types

of question asking should we avoid.

Naomi Bagdonas: I wanna add one thing
that I loved, that changed me and the

way that I interact with people, is
this idea that everything that someone

gives you, they are giving you gold,
and follow up questions are this magic

way to uncover meaning and intention.

Because we all attribute different
meaning to what people are saying,

and there's so much to be uncovered
with really good follow-up questions.

I'm curious, is there anything
related to follow-up questions

that you in particular love?

Alison Wood Brooks: Something that I've
realized, there's a lot of rhetoric you'll

see on LinkedIn or among people that's
like, well, don't ask this question.

Ask this question.

And to some extent, there is maybe
a little bit of a difference between

what makes a good question or not.

But the better mindset to realize
is no matter where you start on a

topic, whatever that root question
is, what actually matters more is

that they're gonna give you an answer.

You listen to their answer, and then
what's the choice that comes next?

Because even a boring sort of
mundane question can become great

by asking great follow-up questions.

If you're constantly searching people's
answers for treasure and then diving

in towards that treasure, it's gonna
take you to great places, even if the

original question isn't anything special.

Matt Abrahams: And not only do
follow up questions signal that

you're interested in listening, it
also allows you to connect better.

And it can set you up for a, a
better relationship in the future.

Naomi, you've been doing a lot of
work in leadership and leadership

coaching, and I'm curious, is there
something new that you're looking to

do, or are doing, that, that helps
you help leaders be more effective?

Naomi Bagdonas: I teach a class here at
Stanford called A New Type of Leader with

Jennifer Aaker, who's a dear friend of
all of ours and an amazing collaborator.

We now have all of our executives create
guiding principles, and the idea is,

what are the principles that when you
are living in alignment with these

principles, or in resonance with them,
your life unfolds magically better.

And they're different for everyone.

So one of mine, I'm gonna be curious
what yours are, one of mine is

go where there's light and heat.

And what that means for me is if I
today set a goal for five years from

now, it will not be anywhere near as
good as if I navigate my life palms up.

And I pay attention to where
there is light and heat, and

I follow those instincts.

Now, that's not true for everyone, but
for me, I have found that living in

alignment with that principle is really
important and makes my life better.

So I'm curious, is there a
principle that each of you have?

Alison Wood Brooks: Doing that, palms up
and chasing light and heat, means that you

also need to leave space for serendipity.

Even practically speaking in your
schedule, in your calendar and

psychologically in your mind, in
order to sort of chase that energy

when the opportunity arises.

Do you do that very intentionally?

Naomi Bagdonas: I do that extremely
intentionally, so I have a portfolio

career, which means that I have
different percentages allocated

to the different things I'm doing.

I have a fifteen percent serendipity fund.

What that means is that fifteen
percent of my time and my budget is

allocated to pursuing serendipity.

If I am giving a talk somewhere and I
have a conversation with an executive

who's in the audience afterwards, and
they say something about something that

they're working on, or perhaps it's an
event that they're leading, and they

say there's no chance that you're gonna
be in New York next week, are you?

And in my mind, if there's real
light and heat there, I go, okay.

Serendipity fund.

Actually, yes, I am in New York next week,
and it's part of the work that we do.

Matt, to your point, not only what
are these guiding principles, but how

do you design structures in your life
that allows you to live in alignment

with them, which is super important.

Matt Abrahams: I'd love for one of
you just to define what is levity and

perhaps the other can share why it's
important, and I invite you to share

with us what your students get when you
guys have that discussion in your class.

What is levity?

Why is it important, and how do
you help students understand that?

Naomi Bagdonas: Levity is a mindset.

Levity is navigating your life
on the precipice of a smile.

Matt Abrahams: I love that saying.

Naomi Bagdonas: It is looking for
reasons to be delighted rather than

disappointed, and it is staying open
to the possibility that joy and magic

are everywhere if you just look for it.

Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that a key
to that definition is being open to it.

Many of us feel judged,
evaluated, threatened in our

work, in our conversations.

How do you encourage your
students, the people you coach,

your friends, your family, to be
open to those moments of levity?

Because they, they're very rewarding
intrinsically, but how do you

encourage people to be open?

Alison Wood Brooks: So the whole premise
of Talk, the book, and Talk, the course,

one of the really profound things that
I, I hope people come away with is that

every interaction is co-constructed.

That includes levity.

It's not just happening in your own mind,
it's not just happening in their mind.

It's something that you are
co-constructing together.

And so there's, it's
a two-sided challenge.

One is about creating moments of levity,
and the other is about appreciating

and receiving moments of levity.

And I think to succeed in fulfilling
this mission of the mindset and

the universal goodness of levity,
you need to really be open to both.

When you see opportunities,
do you seize them to create,

uh, levity in conversation?

And when someone else offers you
this bid for humor or for warmth or

connection or levity, do you accept it?

Do you accept it with open arms or do
you judge it and keep it over there

in a box and feel threatened by it?

That feeling of acceptance and
openness is part of the levity

mindset, and it's not just openness.

It's like a, almost a
proactive appreciation for it.

Matt Abrahams: It sounds like
presence and being other focused

are critical ingredients to being
in that place where you can be open.

Alison Wood Brooks: When we think of
humor or levity, it's easy to think

of it as this like extra bonus thing.

Or like some people I know are funny,
or like that meeting we had that

funny moment of laughter and that
was great, but it was ancillary, it

was extra, was like this bonus thing.

And then we got back to work.

What we find as behavioral scientists is
actually, it's not just this extra thing.

It's incredibly core to how
people are relating to each other.

It is a core determinant of the
status hierarchy in every group.

It's just the correlation between
levity and status, power, influence,

persuasion, and all of the other goals
we're trying to achieve is so intrinsic,

that it's actually not to think of it
as this extra thing, but more, this is

a core goal that we need to engage with
to sustain conversational engagement

in a successful interpersonal exchange.

Naomi Bagdonas: And the research
around this is so robust that teams,

when there's the presence of laughter
in team meetings, those teams are

more successful and more creative.

Leaders with a sense of humor, not even a
good sense of humor, just a sense of humor

are seen as more motivating, more admired.

Their teams report being more engaged.

And so there are all of these benefits.

Even when you ask couples to reminisce
about shared moments of happiness

versus shared moments of laughter, those
couples that reminisce about the shared

moments of laughter then afterwards
report being twenty-three percent

more satisfied in their relationships.

And so even the act of recalling these
moments, they're not just valuable in

the moment for making us more creative,
higher status, more successful, more

bonded, but they also have incredible
benefit down the line of maintaining

that relationship satisfaction.

Matt Abrahams: Many people listening
might be afraid that I'm not funny and,

and I wanna direct everybody to Naomi and
Jennifer's book Humor, Seriously, which

helps all of us become more comfortable
with and understand how to use humor.

When I reflect on what you both have
studied and work on, it seems to me that

there's a lot of nuance and fluidity
that's involved in both conversation

and, and in levity and humor.

And that can be something that's very hard
for people to pay attention to the nuance.

Or to allow themselves
permission to adjust and adapt.

Any suggestions or guidance on
how to let go so you can do that?

Um, a lot of people hold on tightly
to what's comfortable and you're

asking and saying there's benefit to
pushing yourself to be uncomfortable.

Alison Wood Brooks: So a lot of what makes
people good conversationalists, not just

levity, but including levity, but even
asking questions or switching topics, it's

these little fleeting moments that require
risk taking and a little bit of courage.

When things start to get boring, it
means you need to muster yourself up

for that moment and say, I'm gonna
go take us in another direction.

Or I'm gonna ask a question that
maybe is a little risky and may,

maybe they're not gonna wanna answer,
but I trust that they're gonna

tell me they're not comfortable
answering it if it's too personal.

So it's these little bids that require
risk taking and a, and a bit of courage

and levity for sure requires it.

It's like these little fleeting
opportunities arise, and are you gonna

be courageous enough to take that risk?

Matt Abrahams: I always
ask people three questions.

People can listen into your episodes,
Alison, people can listen to episode

73, 169 to hear your answers.

Naomi, in episode 13, so I'm
actually gonna turn the tables.

I've never done this before.

What question should I have asked, that
I haven't asked, for us to discuss?

Alison Wood Brooks: I would love
to hear from both of you what you

struggle with when you think about
levity, particularly in conversation.

Well, you've both spent a
lot of time thinking about

communication and about levity.

In your experience as a human in
the world, what sort of keeps you

up at night about it, or stresses
you out, or you find tricky still?

Matt Abrahams: So when I attempt to be
funny, or when I am funny if people laugh,

sometimes it will happen so quickly that
I'm not thinking about it and I worry

about, I stay up at night thinking about,
did something I say offend somebody?

Is there something that I said in
some way, because it was in the

moment and it just came to me.

And did it potentially offend somebody?

And so I worry about it and I
replay it in my head over and over.

Thankfully, my wife encourages me,
one, to talk to the people I'm afraid

I've offended rather than building it
into something bigger in your head.

But that's the thing around levity
that really, I, I think it, the

beauty of it is it happens in the
moment and when you have spontaneous

levity, it's just amazing and fun.

But in my case, sometimes I am afraid
that it maybe, maybe I push somebody in

the wrong way and, and that worries me.

Alison Wood Brooks: It's an impossible
problem to solve because even when

people laugh and are having a great
time, you really don't know you.

You can't read someone else's mind.

You don't know what sticks
with people and what doesn't.

There's a lot of nice evidence suggesting
that we ruminate about the wrong moments.

Maybe that joke was, that was
totally great and they loved it,

but there was something else you
didn't even notice that actually

they're continuing to ruminate about.

We're very misaligned in what we
ruminate about after conversation.

There's great research by Gus
Cooney, Adam Mastroianni, Dan

Gilbert, about the liking gap.

Do you know this work?

People like you a lot more than you
think on average after a conversation.

We're all overly pessimistic about
how we think things have gone

compared to how they actually went.

Matt Abrahams: Naomi, what's
your answer to Alison's question?

Naomi Bagdonas: I have a body of
work, and I teach at Stanford about

the power of humor in leadership.

I worry that sometimes people can feel
a bit nervous about bringing levity if

that intention is already set, right?

So if someone starts conversation
with me and they're like, oh gosh,

okay, this person is assessing
me and my humor and my levity.

And that pressure is the most surefire
way to kill someone's joy and levity.

And so I spend a lot of time thinking
about, how do I create a really safe space

where this person's goof can come out?

It's not about me being funny.

It's not about me bringing humor.

It's about, am I creating the right space,
the container for other people to fill it.

Rather than people sitting on the
wings and thinking, okay, that person

is gonna fill the humor, which I
think is a broader principle around

for leaders, how do you create the
space for other people to fill it?

Rather than people sitting back and,
and thinking what you're be like.

Alison Wood Brooks: Are there specific
things you do that you think help

make people, relieve that pressure
and make people feel safe to play?

I think people feel the same way.

They're like, I'm so
nervous to talk to you.

I feel like you're evaluating,
and it's almost the opposite.

It's like, I understand how
complicated this thing is that

we're doing, and I think I have more
grace than forgiveness for flops.

Naomi Bagdonas: It's related to this.

It also relates to a broader principle,
which is what are the cues, the visual and

the physical cues that you're giving off?

I was at a dinner party a couple
weeks ago and everyone was sitting

around, it wasn't actually at a
table, it was sitting around couches.

And it was a group of people who, we
were all professional connections where

we should really be getting along,
but the conversation was a little dry

and stilted, and we were also sitting
really far away from each other.

This room just was really big, and I just
could feel like, gosh, how do we bring

some, and so I, I just moved to the floor.

I just sat on the floor because
all the food was in the middle.

I sat on the floor and I started eating.

And one person laughed, and then
one other woman went to the floor,

and a guy kicked off his shoes
and sat cross-legged on the couch.

And you could feel the
energy start to shift.

And so it's, it's not just about
levity, it's more about humanity.

Because when you give space for
people to bring their humanity,

their sense of humor will follow.

Alison Wood Brooks: And breaking
the formality, breaking the pace.

I often, like if there's a certain
expectation or norm or whatever, if you

can break that a little bit, it really
grounds people and bring them together.

Naomi Bagdonas: Yes, yes, totally.

Matt Abrahams: I coached a very senior
leader of a company we all know and

he had some bad news to deliver.

And he did something on his
own, not through my coaching.

He came off the stage in a room of about
two thousand people, and just coming

off the stage and having the tough
conversation changed the whole dynamic.

What's required though, to accomplish
this, is this meta awareness of

what's going on and what's needed.

And it's holding that duality of, I'm in
the moment, I'm present, but at the same

time, I'm observing and feeling what's
going on so I can make the difference.

And that is a skill that, it's
hard to develop, but courses,

like all of us teach, hopefully
help our students do that.

You both have helped us in so many ways.

Not only did we talk about
levity, but we had moments of

levity, and thank you for that.

And thank you for sharing your
passions and your research

to help all of us get better.

It was a true pleasure
to have you both here.

Thank you.

I know both of you traveled
to be here with me today and

I appreciate you doing that.

Thank you.

Naomi Bagdonas: You are such a
beautiful and generous collaborator,

and it's a gift to be here and
the work that you're putting into

the world is also such a gift.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

I'm blushing.

Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about humor and
levity, please listen to episode

13 with Naomi and Jennifer Aaker.

And to learn more about Alison's work,
please listen to episode 73, 89, and 169.

This episode was produced by Ryan
Campos and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

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