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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Jessica Winder: I hired a house manager because in my mind, when I'm with my kids, I actually want to be with my kids. I want to be thinking about them, having fun with them, playing, instead of thinking about like, I need to be doing laundry.
[00:00:09] What am I gonna cook? When am I, when is this getting cleaned? Or like the invisil- invisible list you keep of like, somebody needs new shoes. This one has a project due. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like I kind of want that somebody else's responsibility.
[00:00:22] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:24] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. . Jessica, where are you based?
[00:00:37] Jessica Winder: Vegas
[00:00:38] Shannon Curran: Oh, so nice. Is it so hot right now?
[00:00:41] Jessica Winder: well, it's funny because here it like gets one degree below 100, and we're like, "Winter, pumpkin spice." so I think today it's in like the 80s, and everybody's like, "It's so nice outside." And it's like, "But is it?" but I'm from T- I'm originally from Dallas. So I'm from Dallas and moved here almost five years ago [00:01:00] now.
[00:01:00] so yeah, I'm used to the heat. It's like, mm.
[00:01:02] Shannon Curran: Yeah. What brought you to Vegas?
[00:01:05] Jessica Winder: Um, you know, what does is met a guy on the internet and fell in love.
[00:01:11] Mallory Lee: that's amazing
[00:01:13] Shannon Curran: Wait, how did you meet a guy in Vegas on the internet? I feel like, okay, we just need to t- I just need to know. Like now
[00:01:18] Jessica Winder: No, well, ironically, he is from here, but at the time was in law school in Spokane, Washington, and I was living in Dallas. And yeah, we met on eHarmony, and we've been together ever since. And he was bound and determined to come back to Vegas 'cause this is his hometown. and never in a million years did I think I would live in Vegas.
[00:01:37] But now I love it, like absolutely love
[00:01:38] Shannon Curran: really like it. Yeah, I feel like there's parts of it, like you probably, I'm assuming you don't live on the Strip.
[00:01:43] Jessica Winder: No, like I live in like the burbs. Like I only go over there when I like have something to do or someone's in town or like date nights are super fun because there's always something going on. but yeah, I like absolutely love it
[00:01:57] Shannon Curran: Love
[00:01:58] Mallory Lee: I was just in Vegas a couple of weeks ago [00:02:00] for my, an early birthday party, I guess you could call it. and it was like 105.
[00:02:06] It
[00:02:07] Jessica Winder: Oh yeah. Easy.
[00:02:08] Mallory Lee: very toasty. And all of us were like, "Eek." So good times
[00:02:15] Shannon Curran: Yeah. Well, Mallory, it was a big surprise. You didn't tell the story that like Mallory didn't even know. She, we had podcast... So we, we record on Fridays, which was kind of problematic during the summer, to be fair. but the good news is we'll double up sometimes on Fridays, like we're really far ahead.
[00:02:30] And, she sent a note being like, "Hey, so I am told that I have to cancel everything on Friday. my husband's telling me I have to." And I was like, "Well, you gotta, you gotta. You know? Like, it's like that works. No problem." and I actually did know, because
[00:02:45] Jessica Winder: Oh, that's funny
[00:02:46] Shannon Curran: mutual friends was like, "You'll never..."
[00:02:48] She never really told me the details about it, but she's like, "I'm surprising Mallory." so I assumed, I put two and two together that's what this was. And, I was like, "No problem." Then she was like, "I'm in Vegas?" I was like
[00:02:59] Jessica Winder: Like I just [00:03:00] happened to get on a flight? I don't know. No, that's fun. I love a good surprise. Like I am the type of person that you can legit be like, "I have a surprise for you," and I'll be like, "Okay, I won't... I'll close my eyes." Like I, I w- I'm into it. Like
[00:03:12] Shannon Curran: Yeah. I can't know a surprise is coming, but I'm very into it in the moment. Like, if I know it's coming, I will spoil it. Like, no problem. Every, you know, like every single thing will be spoiled. But if I like am in the moment, someone surprised me, like this is great. Like I like, like good job,
[00:03:27] Jessica Winder: don't threaten me with a scavenger hunt. Like, what?
[00:03:33] Mallory Lee: This is good to know about you. I can't wait for everyone listening to try to think of ways to surprise you.
[00:03:42] Shannon Curran: so Jessica, we were introduced from Ally. So Ally's episode, actually, I don't know when this one's coming out, but actually just went live. and Ally is like such a close, dear friend of mine. I met her on the internet as great friendships start, like Mallory and I, and now us.
[00:03:57] and I was on her podcast originally, [00:04:00] which I know that you were as well. Yes, her original podcast? Yeah. So she was like, "You have to talk to Jessica for Full Stack Moms." I was like, "Oh, okay. Twist my arm." I was like, "She sounds great." Um, so the way that we start the show is we, have you tell us a little bit about your family.
[00:04:16] So this show, I don't know how much of the show you've listened to, but it's all about women that have like big jobs and also like really are fighting really hard to see their family, spend big time with their family, like kind of grappling with these, all these identities that we hold, at the same time.
[00:04:30] So would love to hear a little bit about your personal situation. And then I know you are a career coach too, so I'm sure you talk to lots of, lots of folks about this too.
[00:04:37] Jessica Winder: Yeah. Yes, this should be lively. I have a lot to say about everything, so literally throw whatever you want at me. I will answer anything. Nothing's off the table.
[00:04:45] Shannon Curran: I love
[00:04:46] Mallory Lee: it. Love it
[00:04:47] Shannon Curran: So like I said, met my husband on the internet there. I have four kids. I have two sets of twins. So in a span of 17 months, I had four babies. Um, [00:05:00] yes, I'm a double twin mom. So, uh, my girls
[00:05:05] I just got chills. I lit-
[00:05:09] Jessica Winder: There is a such thing. We are a subgroup of the multiples community. The people that have multiple multiples. So
[00:05:17] Mallory Lee: Very
[00:05:18] Jessica Winder: in the span of 17 months, I went from zero kids to four. My girls are now three. My boys, actually as of today are 20 months old. so it is crazy over here. and then my husband and I, like my husband has his own law firm and I have my own career coaching business.
[00:05:35] I'm a chief people officer. So we have big lives and I always say like, "Of course my body's an overachiever like me." Like what do you mean one baby? My universe was like, "Nah girl, like you do it big." You know? So yeah.
[00:05:51] Shannon Curran: I am obsessed. Wait, are they identical then? Two sets of
[00:05:53] Jessica Winder: No, they're all fraternal. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:55] Mallory Lee: Faternal,
[00:05:56] Jessica Winder: Yeah. And we have a bunch of twins in my family. So for what it's worth, my husband [00:06:00] has twin sisters. Our sets of twins are the seventh and eighth set of twins in our family. So it's-- nobody was even shocked. they were like, "Of course you're..." Like, "Of course." Like, the question in my family is not like boy or girl, it's like, is it just one?
[00:06:16] Shannon Curran: Wow. Talk about a, a lineage of overachievers. That is
[00:06:19] Jessica Winder: Oh yeah. Like we are like, "Oh, you must like one baby. How? It sounds so boring."
[00:06:28] Shannon Curran: Holy
[00:06:31] Mallory Lee: A lot of children. Okay. All right. Do you do you guys both work from home?
[00:06:37] Jessica Winder: We do not. So I'm at home right now just, um, just because today that's how it worked out. But, uh, no, my husband has his own firm and like, you know, I think we're up to like 30 employees. And so part of my role is chief people officer for the law firm, and then I have my own doing content creation and all the thing on the side.
[00:06:56] Um, so yeah, no, we are both out of the house [00:07:00] and doing all the things.
[00:07:02] Mallory Lee: Amazing. So what do the little ones...
[00:07:05] Shannon Curran: like? what is
[00:07:07] Mallory Lee: Sorry. Shannon and I both are like, "Tell me
[00:07:08] Jessica Winder: Yeah.
[00:07:09] Shannon Curran: Tell me everything. Explain. I'm sure everyone asks these questions and it's boring for you, but we
[00:07:13] Jessica Winder: No, it's not. No. I always wanna talk about this 'cause I never want to... people see, like, my Instagram or something and it's like the highlight reel, and I'm like, "Yeah, they're all, perfectly sitting together." Meanwhile, I'm, like, bribing them behind the camera and, like, acting crazy.
[00:07:26] so we have two nannies. We have a nanny who has been with us for, like, three years, since the girls were born. she is normally here, during the day. And then we have a weekend nanny that literally is here Saturday, Sunday from, like, 8:00 to 6:00. She is with us. and then we have a house manager.
[00:07:41] Shannon Curran: So we have somebody that, organizes our whole life. She's here 8:00 to 5:00 during the week, coordinating who's supposed to be here, who's supposed to pick up who. she honestly, I call her, like, the chauffeur. she's driving them around. the girls are in their own dance class. Like, she's doing all of that stuff, because frankly I don't want to, I work hard so I don't have to. That's
[00:07:59] Mallory Lee: done.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Jessica Winder: I believe in outsourcing. That's who I am.
[00:08:04] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome though.
[00:08:07] Jessica Winder: So we have three people plus my husband and I. So it's like a team of five of us with four kids, basically.
[00:08:13] Mallory Lee: So you're not exactly one-to-one. You're, you have the advantage. You have the upper hand
[00:08:19] Jessica Winder: It doesn't feel like that, but yes.
[00:08:22] Mallory Lee: Right
[00:08:23] Jessica Winder: Like, it doesn't feel that
[00:08:25] Shannon Curran: At bedtime you don't, right? Like, I feel like you're... Is it just you? Yeah.
[00:08:28] Jessica Winder: Yeah. Yeah. Like this morning it was just me. My husband on, is on his way to Louisiana right now. and so this morning it was just me. I got all the way to school and realized I did not have on any shoes.
[00:08:41] Shannon Curran: Uh-uh.
[00:08:42] Jessica Winder: Yeah. So I literally called into the school and was like, "Hey, so, uh, it's Jessica. We're outside, but I don't have on any shoes. I don't care. I'm willing to walk in there barefoot, but just so you guys know." And they're like, "Don't worry, we will come and get them." "Thank you."
[00:08:56] Shannon Curran: Oh my God. I feel like I saw a video, I don't know if this is like a video on the [00:09:00] internet or a friend of mine, with a pair of her children's shoes on because
[00:09:03] she, she like smashed her feet into one of the kids' shoes 'cause she d- also forgot her own shoes
[00:09:08] Jessica Winder: Yeah. Like the kids are fully dressed, bows on, looking super cute. I have on no shoes. Yeah.
[00:09:15] Mallory Lee: That's a great...
[00:09:16] Jessica Winder: Yeah. And I got, like I had already dropped off the girls because theirs is like a, they, you pull up and they get them out for you. But the boys, I still have to take them in. So I didn't realize until I was already like there, like the second drop-off that I was like, "Oh, I have no shoes.
[00:09:30] It's cool."
[00:09:34] Shannon Curran: That is so good. when you went for the second set of second, second pregnancy, I don't even know what to call that. Did you know you were gonna have two again? Did you think, you were like, "Okay, the likelihood is high that I will end up with two more kids," or
[00:09:45] Jessica Winder: yes. And my doctor had told me, like I love my OBGYN. He literally said "Hey, it's way more likely once you have one set you are actually more prone because i- in, in essence your body is releasing multiple eggs." And he in [00:10:00] fact, which I told him, "Don't ever say this to anybody else," but I like really like him so I was like, "I'm not mad at you for saying this to me."
[00:10:04] But he's like, "It's like a going out of business sale." Like, he's like, "Your body's just releasing all the eggs." And I was like,
[00:10:11] Shannon Curran: Didn't Melissa's doctor say the same thing the last twin mom we had on this call?
[00:10:15] Mallory Lee: Yes
[00:10:16] Jessica Winder: it's just
[00:10:16] you do
[00:10:16] Shannon Curran: to bring up Melissa on every call.
[00:10:18] Jessica Winder: Yeah. Like
[00:10:19] Mallory Lee: do.
[00:10:20] Jessica Winder: they're all just going and I'm like, "Okay." Like at the time I had the first set at 35 and the second set at 36. And so he's like, "Yeah, your body's just going out of business. It's just releasing all the eggs." And I was like, "Mm-hmm. Thanks, sir." But we did talk about it, like whenever we were like, my husband, we had two girls and he's like, "I really wanna try for a boy."
[00:10:37] And I'm like, "You know what's gonna happen? We're gonna have two more." And I was at the time convinced it was gonna be another set of girls and I was like, "You're gonna have four daughters." And he's like, "I'm willing to do it. Let's go." And thank goodness they're boys. Like, oh my goodness, really.
[00:10:49] Shannon Curran: four girls that would've, that are all like the exact same age. That would've been like, oh. Do, do they share bedrooms? Sorry, I have so many logistical
[00:10:58] Jessica Winder: They don't. No, you're fine. [00:11:00] You're fine. They don't. The girls, well, the girls want their own room and the boys room. and they really like it that way. The girls very much are in there like, they think the boys are just babies. And so they'll say, "They're just babies. Get out of our room, babies."
[00:11:11] and meanwhile the boys are like, "I love you. Hug me. Pick me up."
[00:11:16] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I have kids similar ages, but I only have one of each of the sets that you have, so I am only experiencing half, of that, but similar age. Like,15 months and then almost three,
[00:11:26] Jessica Winder: Oh yeah
[00:11:27] Shannon Curran: Yeah. my son has started calling my daughter little lady. " Oh, little lady." Where did he get that?
[00:11:35] I have no idea. "
[00:11:37] Mallory Lee: I
[00:11:37] Shannon Curran: Come on, little lady."
[00:11:39] Jessica Winder: I love that. Yeah. With them it started because when they first brought them home, they like were l- they were, 17 months old, so they would like be wanting to like hit and stuff, and so it'd be like, "They're just babies. They're just babies." And so now that's their thing. Anytime something happens, they'll say, "They're just babies."
[00:11:53] I'm like, "Yeah, they're gonna be 17," and their sisters are like, "They're just babies."
[00:11:58] Shannon Curran: And they're like the same exact [00:12:00] age. Like the older they get, the less like separate it's gonna
[00:12:03] Jessica Winder: Yeah, exactly
[00:12:05] Shannon Curran: Um, Mallory, do you have questions? Sorry, I have so many, so you just go.
[00:12:11] Mallory Lee: I did have a question. Yeah, I'm curious with, with you and your husband both being business owners and, having big lives, big jobs, do you have any sense of how many hours you work per week? Do you track that or do you have a, an estimate?
[00:12:27] Jessica Winder: I don't track it, but to be honest, it like... I love that I can like fluctuate. So for example, like this week, uh, has been crazy with like school scheduling. And so like today I just decided, okay, well I'm just gonna stay home and like one of, one of my daughters is here with me. She's upstairs watching Elmo.
[00:12:46] You know, so like I can like fluctuate. But there's other weeks, like for example, in a couple of weeks I have a speaking engagement, so I'm gonna be gone the whole week, like in Houston and like honestly having a great time. Um, sleeping in a[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Shannon Curran: Sleeping at a... I know what it's gonna say.
[00:13:02] Jessica Winder: I
[00:13:02] can't wait. Um, people are like, "Oh my God, do you wanna travel?"
[00:13:06] I'm like, "Yes, yes." Like they're like, "Do you wanna come do a speaking engagement?" "Yes." Um, but yeah, I don't honestly know. But I do know, I mean, my husband has cut back his hours, but one of the things that, this might sound unhealthy to other people, but for us it like works, is that like from like probably 4:00 to 8:00 is we call it core hours.
[00:13:25] Like our phones, like unless it's an emergency, we're not answering work calls, we're not doing anything. And then normally we will log back in like 8:30, 9:00. We'll probably work for another hour or two in the office at home, like together, like side by side, we're both working and then we like go to bed and watch TV or whatever we're gonna do.
[00:13:43] But yeah, like we definitely work after they go to bed.
[00:13:46] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Okay. I like that. The reason I hours Yeah
[00:13:51] Yeah, core hours is a really good idea. The reason I asked is because I think a lot of people, might not have as much help, and [00:14:00] so they're wondering like, "Oh my gosh, how do you do this?" And I think that it's when you're a business owner, you just work really freaking hard.
[00:14:07] And so I was wondering, you know, how that played out for you
[00:14:10] Jessica Winder: There's always something. And that's kind of why we started the core hours thing because to be honest, as an attorney, my husband would be taking phone calls and I would be pissed to like, "What are you doing? Like we have like one kid over here, like that's like trying to eat the other one. They're throwing food like, and you're like over here like with a client."
[00:14:28] And I'm like, " Honestly, that seems peaceful." Like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You get back
[00:14:32] Shannon Curran: not getting, taking a break. You're not taking a break
[00:14:34] Jessica Winder: Yeah, like you get in the trenches with me. You know, like we're a team. Um, and we always say that to each other, like one team, one team. Like they'll be screaming, we're like, "One team. Don't turn on each other.
[00:14:43] One team." Um, but yeah, the whole core hours thing started because it- you can we- you can just keep working. And so like, let's do this together. And it's also why I hired a house manager because in my mind, when I'm with my kids, I actually want to be with my kids. I want to be thinking about them, [00:15:00] having fun with them, playing, instead of thinking about like, I need to be doing laundry.
[00:15:03] What am I gonna cook? When am I, when is this getting cleaned? Or like the invisil- invisible list you keep of like, somebody needs new shoes. This one has a project due. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like I kind of want that somebody else's responsibility. And so that is exactly what I told her when I hired her.
[00:15:19] Like, "I need you to get ahead of me, and I need you basically to mom me. Like I need you to be my mom." And she's like... Mind you, she's like 28. She's like, "Okay."
[00:15:28] Shannon Curran: That is so funny. Yeah, I always, right now, like I always say I don't know how people do, I guess I'm doing it, but is like you have to do everything after they go to bed. the amount that's left after everyone's finally asleep and our kids have just started going to bed later and later. I don't know how late your kids, Mallory, your pr- kids are probably even later.
[00:15:50] But I'm like, "Oh my God, I still have two hours of stuff to do around here." the house is, like I haven't cleaned up from dinner yet. I haven't done, because like, you know, the kids, they try and die the whole
[00:15:59] Jessica Winder: Oh [00:16:00] yeah, the whole time
[00:16:00] Shannon Curran: you can't do anything. emptying the dishwasher takes two hours, 'cause you have to close it like 10 times.
[00:16:06] Jessica Winder: They're taking out the knives, they're running around, you
[00:16:08] Shannon Curran: climbing inside it. You're like, "How? How?" I don't understand. And so yeah, it is really, that's, I'm sure that was, that is
[00:16:17] Jessica Winder: It's constant. My husband used to laugh and say, the moment that I would get in our room, he's like, "It's like the Wicked Witch of the West, like how she melts down." He's like, "I can, like, see your body just, like, tick, tick, tick, tick down."
[00:16:33] Mallory Lee: I don't wanna make you guys too jealous, but I can tell my kids to unload the dishwasher and they do it
[00:16:38] Shannon Curran: Well, there, that actually gives me hope.
[00:16:40] Jessica Winder: Yeah, I was like
[00:16:41] Mallory Lee: I know. It's gonna, it's gonna happen for you. Don't worry.
[00:16:46] Shannon Curran: I know. What did your maternity leaves look like? I- if you were working for yourself or working for, were you able to actually take them
[00:16:55] Jessica Winder: I did. And actually at the time, both of my pregnancy, I was working for a small startup. So I was a [00:17:00] chief people officer working for a startup. And my maternity leave experiences were both super positive. So the first one I took four months fully paid, and I came back to like a-- I was the head of HR, so I kinda re-onboarded myself and like went through a transition period.
[00:17:19] Like the first week I didn't take any meetings. I was just there to listen and get updated on the new product, what was going on, and then kind of transitioned back in. And the second time, mind you, when I-- the second pregnancy, I actually interviewed while I was pregnant. So I was interviewing while I was like four months pregnant with my second set of twins, got the job.
[00:17:40] I had worked there for four months before I went on maternity leave. Again, took four months fully paid. They were a Canadian company, so super, super kind. I don't know that an American company would've been so kind to me. they'd probably been like, "You can take it, but we're not paying." but the Canadian company was like, "Yes, take the whole time, and if you need more time..."
[00:17:57] Like it was absolutely lovely. So bo- both [00:18:00] times I took four months, and then was working remotely. So still was like at-- When I went back to work, I came downstairs and my babies were here with me
[00:18:10] Shannon Curran: That's awesome. And as the chief people officer, were you partially involved in crafting the leave plans and stuff, or like in the policies? So was that a big ... Is that something you're Cool
[00:18:22] Jessica Winder: Yeah. So I was, and it was something that like, to be honest, had never... I, prior to having kids, which is funny now that I have four, I never saw myself having kids. I was never that person that was like, "Oh, this is going to be my future." In fact, I kind of was like party girl anti-babies. Like, "Who would wanna do that?"
[00:18:41] Now 40 later.
[00:18:43] Shannon Curran: I don't know.
[00:18:43] Jessica Winder: You girl, you, you just need to find the right person. Um, but, uh, so when I crafted the maternity leave policy, it was quite interesting though because I was the only one that was in like a senior leadership position. So it was different in that I had a whole [00:19:00] team reporting to me, whereas like the other people that were on leave might not necessarily have been on the leadership team, so their leave was definitely different.
[00:19:07] but it did give me a whole new sense of what are we doing here and why are people coming back so soon? And,it was a really weird experience to go through it and also be the one in control of it. yeah.
[00:19:19] Mallory Lee: So what is, what have you learned? what's your suggestion to everybody out there on how maternity leaves should be structured?
[00:19:28] Jessica Winder: Well, first of all, definitely take every single day and dollar that is given to you. I've had people be like, "No, I'm gonna come back early," and they think it's a, like they're gonna get something or it's like a prize. And I'm like, "You will not-- They will not remember the sacrifice that you're making."
[00:19:43] I'm, I'm telling you right now from being behind the curtain, you will not get anything for saying that you came back early. So that's one thing, like take every day that you are given. And then the second thing is I do think you need to be re-onboarded like you're basically a new person. Like, that's how I felt.
[00:19:59] especially [00:20:00] if you're gone for quite a long time, like the company might have a new product, a new mission, a new whatever is going on. So I advise people to be treated like a new hire. Like go through an orientation, go through a period of like relearning. Like I'm sure there's new people since you've left, all these things, like what's going on and what are the expectations for you?
[00:20:18] And then kind of tell them what you want during leave. My first maternity leave, I literally told them, "Do not call me. I don't care what's going on up in here. Y'all better call the police, call 911. Don't call Jessica." don't call
[00:20:32] Shannon Curran: I am OOO, okay? Like that is
[00:20:36] Jessica Winder: Don't call me. And the second time I was like, "Actually, I would love like some weekly updates."
[00:20:40] So every Friday they would send me an email of like things that were going on in the company. and so I loved that, but the first time I didn't want anything to do with that. I was so overwhelmed, and I had-- all four of my babies were NICU babies, so I was dealing with that and postpartum, and I just didn't want anything.
[00:20:55] So I for sure think you need to figure out a plan of what you [00:21:00] want and how you want to be communicated with, but also to take everything that's given to you. Do not come back early. Never. Like I don't care if you even just pretend like you're going back and you just stay home, you know? Like,
[00:21:13] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. No one remembers those things.
[00:21:18] Jessica Winder: No, they're not gonna be like, "Oh, she came back early and left her newborn baby. She deserves this promotion." No.
[00:21:26] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I, I mean, even apply that to other stuff. There have been times where I've, stayed up and worked through the night on something that was so important, right? And you think in that moment that you're the hero and everybody is, gonna remember it forever, and I, I doubt they even realize it.
[00:21:43] I doubt that they even realized that I had to do it. So
[00:21:47] Jessica Winder: And it becomes an expectation. So once you do stuff like that, then they expect those things from you. And when you don't, and when you try to pull back and have a boundary, then you're the problem, So yeah.
[00:21:58] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I think if i- [00:22:00] in an extenuating circumstance when you, really step up for someone and it happens, once or twice, that's good, m- like, social capital morale. Like, they're like, "Oh, this is a girl I can count on." Do not do it everyday. But then that's, like, on yourself to not, right?
[00:22:12] I think same thing with, like, vacations. I took my first vacation in three years This is not something, a badge I wanna wear. This is not cute of me. But since starting my own business, I have not been fully off for a full week other than having my baby, and I was only off for five weeks when I had my second.
[00:22:30] And because it was my own fault. Like, this is my own fault. I was not a full-time employee, so I wasn't getting, a normal leave, so it was just like, I was a bad chief people officer for myself. Uh, significant- I was not good. but the second time I did kinda want a little ... Like, I was ready to, talk to grownups again, probably the same way you were feeling, Jessica.
[00:22:45] that, Mallory's done similar things, like consulting while on leave. You know, things like that, while you wanna... but I took a full week off, and you know what's crazy? Like, everyone was fine. No one died. I didn't lose my job. My clients didn't [00:23:00] fire me. My, I even have new ones since then. And I didn't take new business calls while I was gone. They're still here waiting for me. Like, it's, like, really hard, I think, and I got to be just mom for that week, which I've never been. it's like, it was cool. I was like, "This is, I should do this more often."
[00:23:19] Jessica Winder: Yeah.
[00:23:20] Mallory Lee: but this is what it's like
[00:23:21] to
[00:23:21] Jessica Winder: this is
[00:23:22] Shannon Curran: it's like
[00:23:22] to not have to be
[00:23:23] seven people at once. holy cow. It was still really hard. I'm not saying it was like sunshine and roses. But, Jessica, did you always know you wanted to go into content creation? Was that like your goal when you were going through your career of like get certain jobs so I can get to a certain place now?
[00:23:37] Just like how did it happen?
[00:23:39] Jessica Winder: not. Absolutely not. I, um, I started writing content on LinkedIn honestly around 2020 just because I had so much to say and was like, "Oh, there's a different way we could do this." And my style of leadership is very much we should be doing better. So sometimes I, quote-unquote, "get in trouble with people" 'cause they're like, "But [00:24:00] you are HR, so you, you know, how are you talking about these things and talking about other HR people?"
[00:24:05] And I'm like, "Because I don't actually like all HR people, and I'm sure they don't like me either, you know? And that's okay." And so I have a very like we should burn it down and be better. And so that's always my viewpoint of like I'm talking from a like I've done this and these are the mistakes that I've made and I wish I could have done it differently.
[00:24:22] So it started with LinkedIn and then morphed into a newsletter, podcast, like brand deals. But it-- I started my LinkedIn and now I'm at like I think 120,000 followers. And it's funny because I started out honestly just talking crap about the workplace, and that just morphed into like, well, this is how we could do it better.
[00:24:40] So it started from a place of like, "I just wanna talk crap about people," and now it's more like, "I could help you improve it."
[00:24:49] Mallory Lee: Nice.
[00:24:50] Gotta get the people fired up.
[00:24:52] Jessica Winder: Yeah. Like literally, that's my brand. Burn it all down.
[00:24:57] love it. And so now, like, you've written books, like, you've written, [00:25:00] like, and you're, you're on, like, a speaking circuit. Like, h- what is the part that you like the most? Like, are you ... Does this feel like work to you, or is it, like, still fun? still fun. The speaking part is the part that I have leaned into. At the beginning of this year, I set a goal of like, I want to be on as many stages as possible and applied for a couple of TED Talks. Did not get those, but like got other speaking engagements. So like this fall, I'm gonna be traveling way more than I ever have in, since I've had my kids, which I'm very excited about.
[00:25:28] it was like a conscious decision of "Oh, we could do this." And my husband and I sat down and I was like, "I wanna get back on the road." And he's like, "Let's do it." so I'm gonna be in Houston and Boston and, Dallas and like, yeah, which is fun 'cause I picked those places 'cause like I wanna go there, you know?
[00:25:41] Um, so the speaking part still feels like just fun, like I get to just talk about whatever I want to. I would definitely will say the writing part has become to feel more like work because I've been doing it for so long. So that part used to be more fun, and now it's more like I'm writing content for [00:26:00] like a company and like they want certain things.
[00:26:02] And so it doesn't feel as authentic to me as me getting on a stage.
[00:26:07] Shannon Curran: Yeah, cool. I f- yeah, I feel like all of these things like start to become scalable and don't feel as fun anymore. ... But the perk of running your own thing is you can always just change the mix, right? to whatever,
[00:26:17] Jessica Winder: " Oh, I don't wanna do that. I'm not gonna do that." Yeah, for sure
[00:26:20] Shannon Curran: Yeah, what are the main topics you're getting hired to talk about?
[00:26:22] Are they just like hiring Jessica and they're like, "Just say whatever you want"?
[00:26:26] Jessica Winder: You know, I wish that there was more of that. Um, but no. So one of them that I'm doing when I go to Houston is talking about HR and AI and, like, the be all end all of it all and, like, how are we implementing AI. The other one is talking about the 40-hour workweek and how it's a lie, how, this was not made for, women in leadership or people with a family.
[00:26:49] Like, the 40-hour workweek was made for a
[00:26:50] Shannon Curran: Potato farmers.
[00:26:51] Jessica Winder: Yeah, like a man with a wife doing everything else. Um, so we're gonna talk about that one. Um, and then I'm going to a women's conference talking about, [00:27:00] like, women in leadership and, like, you basically you don't have to give up everything to have it all, and also having it all is an illusion.
[00:27:06] You- if you want it all, you're gonna have to pay people to help you get it all. So that's why I talk so openly about, you know, my team of nannies and a house manager, 'cause even when I tell people I have a house manager, they're like, "What?" Like, "What does she do?" And I'm like, "Everything I don't wanna do."
[00:27:19] Like, um, so talking freely about that 'cause I never wanna give this illusion of, like, you should just do calendar management and, you know, kind of what I call it, like, the goop advice. I'm like, "Nah. I'll tell you what you need to do. Hire somebody."
[00:27:32] Shannon Curran: And that, like, is the incentive to keep your business growing so that you can afford to
[00:27:36] Jessica Winder: Exactly. So like I have to do work so I can pay for her.
[00:27:41] Mallory Lee: Yep. 100%. I, that's on my, my vision board is
[00:27:46] the house manager someday
[00:27:49] Jessica Winder: on TikTok. Like I never even knew this was a thing, and then it came up in my TikTok algorithm and I was like, "This lady does what?" And I started following all of these accounts and I was like, "I'm getting me one. I want one. I want one."[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Shannon Curran: Is she an employee of your business or an employee of you? Like, how does ... Is it work like a nanny? Like, there, like how
[00:28:06] Jessica Winder: yeah, like literally, yeah. So she's employed through my Hit & Gym career coaching, so she does house management, and then she also helps me with my podcast, so she's kind of like a little bit of my EA too. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm. She's doing a little bit of everything. I'm like literally, she's so ingrained in my life now that I'm like, "Hmm," like how...
[00:28:25] If it didn't work out, which she's doing amazing, but I'm like how would I undo this? Because like I, I have her in everything.
[00:28:31] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, do you wanna do, a little plug for your podcast?
[00:28:38] Jessica Winder: Sure, yeah. So, um, yeah, my podcast is called Make It Make Sense, and it's five to 10-minute snippets of me basically ranting about something that I want to make sense. So the, the most recent one is about why do you have to negotiate for money when you're getting an offer? Like, and you know, the, the crap that they say about like women should negotiate more.
[00:28:59] Well, statistically [00:29:00] we negotiate a lot and then you get pushback, on like, no, you should be, grateful, quote-unquote. I do a whole episode on gratitude where it's like, what is gratitude when you deserve what you've been given? And why do I need to qualify what I'm saying by saying I'm grateful for it even though y- I deserve it?
[00:29:16] so yeah, it's like a... Basically I say it's like a quick coaching session from me to like my audience, like five to 10 minutes and it's just one topic I'm talking about and giving you my two cents on, and then you move on to something else.
[00:29:28] Mallory Lee: Oh, fun
[00:29:29] Shannon Curran: So cool. How many episodes do you do a week? Like a bunch? You just do like a bunch of little ones, or
[00:29:34] Jessica Winder: three, probably three a week that go up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I obviously like just record them all in like one sitting. I'll do like a whole month's worth in one sitting of like topics that are like irking me or stuff in the news. You know, I did a whole episode on this controversy with the goth stuff and why like that was just bad marketing and what should've been done and all that good stuff.
[00:29:53] So I did that one yesterday. That one was fun. It's just me ranting about men.
[00:29:59] Shannon Curran: [00:30:00] Monetize my ranting. I love it.
[00:30:01] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I saw the beginning of that, like everything that happened and how it all blew up, but I haven't continued to pay attention. So
[00:30:10] Jessica Winder: it's gotten bad.
[00:30:11] Mallory Lee: What's the latest?
[00:30:13] Jessica Winder: On each other. Like the two companies have now turned on each other and given statements of like who gave the AOK and who said they... You know what I mean? But come on guys, like you recorded it and put it out there
[00:30:24] Shannon Curran: you all did
[00:30:24] Jessica Winder: guy shoving a woman down. Like what are we talking about?
[00:30:29] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Wow
[00:30:30] Shannon Curran: There are many times when I look at things that I'm like, "That went through s-" So as a person in marketing, you know how many times something has to go through approvals, never mind if you work for Caraway. Like, or, or if you work for, like, Callaway, not Caraway. That's funny, I was thinking about Caraway. I was like, the amount of human beings that had to see that, plus whatever AI agents they've built.
[00:30:49] Like, the, to think that, like, it's just, like, yeah, everyone's to blame.
[00:30:54] Jessica Winder: Yeah, like everybody's to blame
[00:30:56] Shannon Curran: also, yeah, the systems also of being able to speak back in those large [00:31:00] companies is, like, also really interesting. It's been a long time since I've worked at a big company. I work exclusively with startups, and that's why.
[00:31:07] I'm like, "I don't know what happened in there." But that, something got lost in translation in there. Yeah. So is a majority of your work now, so you're a chief people officer for the law firm, and then do you have clients as well, like coaching clients, and then you also do content stra- content work? Is that, kind of the mix of your business?
[00:31:23] Jessica Winder: Yep. So most of my clients find me on LinkedIn and either are in a state of transition, so they're trying to find a new job, or they're at a job that they want to stay at and they wanna get promoted or they want, some type of coaching. And then I've also developed this almost like niche of HR people that, basically want me to help them get promoted.
[00:31:43] And it's almost-- I almost call it like I'm ghostwriting for them, 'cause if they don't... Let me see how to say this respectfully. Some of them are in roles that they are not right for, and they don't know what they're doing. And so they're like, "Help me, but I don't wanna tell people that I don't know what I'm doing."
[00:31:58] And I'm like, "Oh well, I'll coach you. I'll [00:32:00] show you how to do all these things." So that is like the three categories. And then also I have a like two clients right now that are businesses that I'm coaching specifically, like leadership teams that are in a state of transition. One of them, is going through a merger and acquisition, and the other one is a group that I used to work with and now like they just brought me back on to help with some leadership stuff.
[00:32:22] It's a little bit of everything. I literally feel like I have a hodgepodge career now, which I like.
[00:32:27] Mallory Lee: Yeah, it's called a portfolio career,
[00:32:29] Jessica Winder: I have a portfolio career, like a squig- or, I read something the other day that was like squiggly careers are in, and I was like, and it's like basically like you, you think you go up a ladder, but really you're just squiggly doing a little
[00:32:39] Mallory Lee: Am I trendier than I thought I was? 'Cause my career makes no sense. Squiggle is the way to do it, you know? I'm curious in your coaching business how often you're coaching people that are either becoming a mom or a new mom, or how often does that change become part of the mix of why they need coaching?
[00:32:59] Jessica Winder: It [00:33:00] actually has started to come up a lot because as soon as, obviously as soon as I had my kids, I started talking about motherhood and my experience and like postpartum and my NICU experience and all those things. I was super open and vulnerable about all of that. And so then once I started talking about that on LinkedIn, then I had more clients that were like, "Hey, I'm coming back from maternity leave," or, "I'm about to go on maternity leave.
[00:33:20] what do I need to do to, to stay prepared?" Or, um, I've had a couple of clients that are like, "Hey, I, I've already decided I'm not coming back. Like, what do I do? Because I spent all this time," and it's kind of like the, um, what do they call it? The sunken cost. You know what I mean? You
[00:33:33] feel like I-- Yeah, "I feel like I put so much into it and now I don't wanna come back."
[00:33:37] And so coaching them through like this doesn't have to mean the end. And like sometimes I think our minds just think, "I made a decision today and this is my forever decision." And so talking people through like, "This could just be for a month or it could be for six months or two years. It doesn't have to be forever, and then you could come back."
[00:33:52] motherhood definitely comes up a lot more now that I'm a mom. I-- Since I've talked about it, people like come to me for it. Uh, [00:34:00] before I, I believe I had one person that I like coached and I remember being, I don't... Now I look back, I'm like, "I don't think I was a good coach to her because I didn't really know what she was going through."
[00:34:10] You know? Like I remember her giving me insight and I was like, "Okay, like, well maybe do this." And it was very like, I don't know, like shallow. I felt like I didn't know what I was talking about. And now I'm like, "Oh no, you should do this and like figure out what's gonna help your mental health and like, is this job right for you and do you actually wanna come back?
[00:34:26] And also, do you wanna come back in the same capacity? 'Cause you could do something else. Like you could come back and work less or work something completely different or do your own thing." So, yeah, I have a lot more moms coming to me.
[00:34:39] Shannon Curran: This is something that I think about all the time, and it's probably 'cause I run my own business, is the idea of h- to finding the right coach. So this is something you were just saying, that, you didn't feel like you were the right fit necessarily for that person, and obviously,I
[00:34:51] Someone once said to me, "If you're not embarrassed by the work you did two years ago, you haven't grown at all." And
[00:34:55] Jessica Winder: Oh yeah, so embarrassed.
[00:34:57] Shannon Curran: Like, great. I, ugh, I, I like [00:35:00] look back,
[00:35:00] Jessica Winder: if my old clients are listening to this, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[00:35:02] Shannon Curran: yeah. Well, even like when having Ally on, she was like, "I listen to my original episode of her podcast." I go, "Oh, sweet baby girl, you had no idea."
[00:35:10] I had just launched my business. I was so sure on the positioning. I was so sure on, like, exactly ... And the thing is, that's how you manifest things to happen, right? Like, you just put them into the universe and they happen. But even now, like my offer's changed four times in the, in the, like, almost three years I've been in business, right?
[00:35:24] It literally changed again this week. we finally re-codified, the thing that I do and the value I provide, right? And, so how would you think about, I think a lot of folks, we've had some coaches on this, um, this, uh, show, and I think that it's definitely an arena f- that has wonderful people and also a lot of charlatans, as consultants as well.
[00:35:43] How would you have people evaluate, the right person to give them this kind of career advice, whether you're a mom or not? Like, I think it's a really hard thing to know the right thing to do.
[00:35:53] Jessica Winder: Yeah. So this is perfect timing 'cause literally this week I turned away two people, and, before I wouldn't have [00:36:00] done it, I would've found a way to work with them. So I think that's one, is that I've grown enough to know that, sometimes it's just not the right fit. these two people, one of which didn't need career coaching.
[00:36:10] She doesn't-- She literally doesn't know what she wants to do. she's working in the legal field and has, is having, like, an epiphany moment of like, "Is this my life? Do I wanna keep doing this?" I want to come in once the person knows what they want to do and this is the career you're trying to go for, this is what you want and I can help you get there.
[00:36:27] So I can, interview prep and resume and all that stuff. But if you're trying to figure out and you have no clue what you wanna do, you need like a different type of coach. that's like a life coach,all of that and that's not
[00:36:36] Shannon Curran: A
[00:36:37] Jessica Winder: And I, as soonAnd I told her that on the call. Like as soon as she started saying what she... I was like, "So what do you wanna do?" And she's "I have no clue." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I do have somebody I can, I can recommend for you." And so I have like built out a network I think of like up to 10 people that I like recommend people out to.
[00:36:52] Like, okay, maybe you need this type of person and I'm not that type of person. And normally I can tell pretty quickly if somebody is like going to be [00:37:00] receptive to my style because I always tell them like, "I'm going to tell you what I really think." if you tell me you are ready to get this promotion and we start talking and I look through your resume, I might be like, "Girl, you don't deserve this."
[00:37:08] Why would you think you need to get promoted?" You know what I mean? And so if that's not your style, if you want me to like sugarcoat everything and be like, "No, you're amazing and you deserve this," I'm not the coach for you. But I know of some coaches that'll do that for you.
[00:37:21] Mallory Lee: Right, right
[00:37:22] Jessica Winder: I definitely think evaluating what do you want out of this coaching?
[00:37:27] is it that you're trying to land a new job? Do you also know that this person has done it before? So I have seen a lot of coaches, and I call them the TikTok coaches, that have never worked a job before. And I'm like, "How are you giving career advice?" "How are you talking about HR and you've never worked in a corporate workspace?"
[00:37:44] I definitely think evaluating what the person has done. So I'm very open. I've been in HR for 15 years. Like I have hired and fired and done layoffs and like I know the game of corporate. And so if you're in a corporate workspace, I'm your girl. Now if you want a coach about being an [00:38:00] entrepreneur, I'm probably not your girl.
[00:38:01] I'm an entrepreneur but like I'm still figuring it out to your point. Like every other day I'm like, "Oh, maybe I should do this," and I'm just gonna decide to do it and do it. I'm not the girl for that. I'm the corporate girly that can tell you what's really gonna happen behind the scenes and honestly, quite frankly, he- help you game the system.
[00:38:18] That's my go-to. Like I can help you game whatever it is you're trying to do and tell you what's really gonna happen and how to get to the next step.
[00:38:26] Mallory Lee: What's the tip for gaming the system that could possibly apply to any corporate job?
[00:38:36] Jessica Winder: this is gonna sound funny, but get them before they get you. Um, so I say that in a very like, figure out what you want and you decide how you're gonna get there. So when I tell people that I always knew I wanted to get into the C-suite, I was very much of the mindset like either I will get it here or I'll get it somewhere else.
[00:38:53] So I never hooked myself to a leader. I never hooked myself to one business like niche. It was always [00:39:00] that I am going to... Like when I was a manager, I was like, "I'm gonna become a director." And maybe that's at this company, maybe that's at another company, but that's what's happening for me. And so my mindset is always like, don't tie yourself to one idea, one leader, one company and say, "I'm going to do this here."
[00:39:17] 'Cause then you're kind of handicapping yourself because if it doesn't work out at that one company, you've decided you don't wanna do it anymore. And so that's my biggest thing is like you have to free yourself from that. And also the mindset of like, I don't wanna be a job hopper. People hop their butt all the way to the top and get more money than if you stay, 3% raise.
[00:39:36] So like there's a lot of statistics behind that one. So yeah, I tell people all the time, "Get to hopping." Okay? Hop like a bunny. Okay.
[00:39:45] Mallory Lee: F**king funny
[00:39:47] Shannon Curran: I accidentally hopped after a little bit. I think a lot of people did over the last, five to six years. Like, that's the thing. it's definitely ... I'm hearing that a little less. Other than, like, when people don't have a stint of more than, like, 10 to 12 months somewhere, you're
[00:39:57] like, "Okay," like, maybe stay there for a little [00:40:00] longer.
[00:40:00] like, get an annual review, and then
[00:40:02] Jessica Winder: like it was one. It was one.
[00:40:04] Shannon Curran: Just one.
[00:40:05] Mallory Lee: Give me a bad review if I just leave
[00:40:07] before the
[00:40:08] Shannon Curran: stay. I know, exactly. Oh. No, I think that's, that's really interesting advice, too, and I think the leader thing is hard because, Mallory, I don't know if you've had this thought, too, is, there are bosses I've loved and bosses I've loved not as much, right?
[00:40:22] And you want to ... If you go somewhere for the boss, like I did that one time at a job, and then she left, and then the job was awful. And I was like, "Oh, no." And, you learn that the hard way, right? Whereas it's ... But also, as a leader, I love to bring people with me, right? I want them to come with me, but I
[00:40:39] They have to know that, like, that doesn't mean I'm a permanent fixture wherever we are, right? It's a really hard lesson to learn because you wanna work with people you really like and respect and can learn from, but the people aren't permanent. so it's, that's ... It's a hard lesson to learn.
[00:40:52] That one was hard for me. I
[00:40:53] don't
[00:40:54] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:40:54] Jessica Winder: I always tell people, "Get the title." Like, no matter what you do, get the title, and then you can [00:41:00] move around. 'Cause the title should dictate the money, but sometimes it doesn't. But if you get the title, you can go somewhere else and get the money. So sometimes you gotta, you know, be strategic.
[00:41:12] Mallory Lee: that's a good, strategy to point out, and it's a theory that I have had for a while because I get a lot of people that reach out to me. They want to know, "How can I get to the VP level of RevOps?" And they're looking to get to VP level by going to a new company. And I'm telling them it's really rare to go from director to VP at the same time that you're changing your company.
[00:41:38] It's more common that you get promoted to VP at your current company, and then you have your next choice of where you want to go after that. And so that's some advice that I've given to people. It makes me glad to hear you
[00:41:50] Jessica Winder: Oh, yeah. Get the
[00:41:51] Mallory Lee: similar.
[00:41:52] Jessica Winder: As soon as you get it, you can go wherever you want. but get the title first.
[00:41:56] Mallory Lee: Yeah
[00:41:57] Shannon Curran: Yeah. I told this story last week when [00:42:00] someone asked me, it's, pretty rare to go from content marketing to CMO. It's, not a normal trajectory in terms of, marketing roles that become CMOs. it's pretty unra- it's pretty rare. And I remember, asking for a title change at a job where I made, like, really little money, and I wasn't making almost any more, but I was like, "I want my title to reflect what I'm doing."
[00:42:19] And then I left immediately. The second my title changed. I was like, 'cause then also the LinkedIn algorithm picked up that I'm, like, a senior content strategist, and then I got offered a ton of jobs because ... And I remember my offer being, like, way more money, and then being like, "I know this is probably still not enough."
[00:42:35] And I was like, "Yeah, I'll take it. I know it's tough." I know that there will be ... It
[00:42:39] Jessica Winder: for the team. No,
[00:42:40] Shannon Curran: like a 40% raise. I was like, " Yeah, yeah. I am, you know, I'm really in it for the long haul, for the growth," like, all this stuff. I was like, sh- uh, yeah, it was my, it was a really good acting exercise.
[00:42:49] Jessica Winder: That is a winning strategy because the, the thing behind the curtain of HR is when you're recruiting, it's great to be like, "We wanna look for potential," but most of the time people don't have [00:43:00] time for that, and they're looking for the same thing. So y- if you want a VP, you're looking for people that have been a VP.
[00:43:05] And the-- it's a quick boom, especially now with AI. Like you're looking for the same. So it doesn't matter if you like have been in the role for a month, as long as you got that title at the top, that's what they're looking for. So sometimes, to your point, I have told people I hate the promotions without like comp benefit or like getting more money, but if you were planning to leave anyway, do whatever you have to do to get that title change right before you leave.
[00:43:30] Shannon Curran: Yeah. I love that you're saying this because I've always felt this, but I had no data to back it
[00:43:35] Jessica Winder: Oh, yeah. It's real.
[00:43:39] Mallory Lee: Good. Good data. We love the data. And it's firsthand experience as well, so. Cool. Well, I know we're... Ugh, I can't believe
[00:43:49] how fast This hour is going by. I know, seriously. we have a little segment that we like to do at the end of the show where we talk about our save of the week, [00:44:00] and it could be a product or a person or,like a process or system or something that saved you as a working parent this week.
[00:44:08] So we'll let Shannon go first so you can think about it. I need to think too.
[00:44:14] Shannon Curran: Great. Thank you. I actually am going to say my time off last week, which I've mentioned a few times, but I haven't given it the real save. for the first time, I moved ... LinkedIn was a big one for me. I have never even, I haven't been off LinkedIn in probably four years. Someone saw that I had been not active for multiple days in the DMs, and they literally commented.
[00:44:34] They sent me a DM, and they're like, "Are you okay? Did you die?" "Where are you?" so LinkedIn, Slack, and email. So no even personal email. no email, right? I moved them all to, their own special,screen on my phone that I didn't look at. And I was fully off and present with my kids for seven days, and it was
[00:44:54] And I even got back to my phone just being fun. I know that sounds silly, but,
[00:44:58] Jessica Winder: No, that's [00:45:00] fine.
[00:45:00] Shannon Curran: yeah. And I, so my screen time actually wasn't that much less, which I was like, "Oh, my screen time is gonna be so far down." It was not. But I just, went on TikTok and watched a dumb mo- And I feel like we villainize screen time a lot, saying we're on our phones too much, and I totally agree.
[00:45:11] In certain circumstances I am. But, it was kind of nice to be able to just be like, "I'm gonna go." The kids are asleep or they're both napping. That only happened once, but it was a lovely hour. And I was like, "I'm gonna sit here, and I'm gonna look at TikTok and not feel like I have to check Slack or not feel like I have to check my email."
[00:45:26] I came back feeling like a new human being.
[00:45:28] Mallory Lee:
[00:45:28] Shannon Curran: I'd been reborn. I was like,
[00:45:31] Jessica Winder: Born
[00:45:32] Shannon Curran: " Holy." Truly, I was like, "Wow." I was like, I did not realize how burned out I was. I just didn't realize it until I'd gotten to day six or so, and I was like, "So I'm still alive. I still have personal worth." This is something I'm working through.
[00:45:46] I'm still valuable. I still deserve to be loved, and I haven't answered a Slack in six days. You know what I mean? Like, and it's okay. Um, and so I think it was a major save on me being a more present parent and me being better at my job, coming into, what historically [00:46:00] has been my busiest season always, I think for all of us, the fall.
[00:46:03] and so I'm feeling ready. Like, I had three new sales calls this week, and I felt great during them. I was like, but if I had not taken last week off, I probably would've been like, ugh, like half in them, half out of them, so that's my save this week. Take your f- time off. That's what
[00:46:17] Jessica Winder: Take every day. Every day. Yeah, take it. Yeah. I can go next. I think for me, one of the things that I've been thinking about is, like, just efficiency and, like, how my husband and I, because we work together, like, how we're sharing data and, keeping each other updated and stuff. And we started using this app called Granola, and it's like a recording app, and it is amazing.
[00:46:40] Like, I am sold. It has helped me summarize things and just... Like, when I'm, even when I'm meeting with my coaching clients, like, I have it on and it's helping me where I'm, like, actually able to focus. So now I'm refocusing on, like, let's just have a conversation instead of like, do, note this, note this, note this.
[00:46:57] I'm just having a conversation and then working with [00:47:00] Granola afterwards to, take that information and do what I need to do. so it has been a savior. I have it on my phone. My husband has it on his phone now. He'll send me Granolas back and forth for stuff with the law firm and, like, things we need to be doing.
[00:47:12] I even Granola'd, like, we had a meeting with one of the teachers at the school. I Granola'd it. Because you know when you're in it and you're talking about your kid, emotions are high. And so afterwards I was able to take it and then be like, "Okay, this is what she actually said. These are the things we're gonna work on."
[00:47:25] even asking it, like, "How was my tone?" You know what I mean? Like, what could I have done differently? So kind of coaching myself too. so yeah, Granola 100%.
[00:47:34] Shannon Curran: Love it.
[00:47:35] Mallory Lee: Love it. All right. I'm gonna give a shout-out to Lauren this week, who is on my team at work. not to be confused with
[00:47:44] Miss Lauren, our nanny. I know.
[00:47:46] Shannon Curran: So many Laurens. Or Lauren that's been on this podcast. Yeah,
[00:47:49] Mallory Lee: Aquilino, yeah, there's, there's a lot of Laurens. But, Lauren, who works with me at Zipline, and this was just a couple of days ago. We got a request from the security [00:48:00] team.
[00:48:00] It was really detailed. It was like, "We need to know this, that, and the other thing." I started to read the message, and my eyes just glazed over. I was like, don't know what this is." And so I forwarded it to her and I said, "Hey, can you look at this?" And she's like, she's like, "Yeah," you know, and 15 minutes later, done.
[00:48:21] And I was like, "Okay." That, I needed that. I needed one less complex paragraph to read for the week, and, she saved me there. And she saves me a lot of the time, so shout-out to Lauren
[00:48:34] Jessica Winder: We need
[00:48:35] Shannon Curran: We love good We need more Lauren. Get yourself a Lauren. That is, uh, yeah. Anyone that come, you come out of a one-on-one with less stuff to do, not more, that is,
[00:48:44] Jessica Winder: exactly. Come to me with solutions. Yeah.
[00:48:47] Mallory Lee: Yeah, for sure
[00:48:50] Shannon Curran: it's been s- such a pleasure. Thank you so much, and shout out to Ally for introducing us. and folks should just follow you on LinkedIn like everybody else does,
[00:48:57] Jessica Winder: please do. I have a lot to say. I [00:49:00] literally post every single day. I don't miss a day. I got a lot of content about the workplace and how to make it better. So yeah, for sure.
[00:49:08] Shannon Curran: Love that. Well, all right. Well, have a great weekend, gals. It's Friday afternoon for anyone that doesn't know, so we
[00:49:14] Mallory Lee: that's
[00:49:14] Shannon Curran: sending it into the weekend. All right. Well, thank you.
[00:49:17] Jessica Winder: Thank you, ladies
[00:49:18] Shannon Curran: Talk to you later. Bye
[00:49:20] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:49:22] Speaker: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:49:32] Shannon Curran: I live in, like, such a New England house. It's, like, so, like,
[00:49:36] Jessica Winder: legit, I was like, "That is such a nice background ." Like
[00:49:38] Shannon Curran: Oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah, I, um, this is in like a funny bonus room downstairs in our house and like I- it's my favorite wall in the house, but it has never been useful for anything 'cause no one's
[00:49:49] Jessica Winder: It's a great
[00:49:49] Shannon Curran: until I, till I moved my office down here.
[00:49:52] Yeah. Thank
[00:49:53] Jessica Winder: of 10
[00:49:54] Shannon Curran: Thank you. I was gonna say Mallory is always the one that gets the accusations of the fake backdrop 'cause
[00:49:58] Jessica Winder: No, both of you, like [00:50:00] both of the backdrops are like killing it. I literally was like, " Let me put on a fake background ," because I thought hers was fake. And then she's like, "No, this is my real house."
[00:50:10] Mallory Lee: I love it.