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Discover the premier and original podcast dedicated to wildland firefighting, the vibrant culture surrounding wildland firefighters, firefighter mental health and physical performance, and the wilderness - The Anchor Point Podcast... Join our global community as we delve into the captivating stories of Wildland Firefighters, shed light on career opportunities, promote fire prevention awareness, educate the public, and openly discuss the mental health struggles and triumphs faced by firefighters on and off duty. Immerse yourself in our unscripted and unedited long-form interviews, where we leave no topic unexplored.
With The Anchor Point Podcast, you'll gain free and exclusive access to firsthand experiences shared by wildland firefighters, industry experts, mental health clinicians, physical performance professionals, doctors, scientists, and the families of fire line operators. Our episodes encapsulate the entire spectrum of emotions, from the extraordinary and awe-inspiring moments to the challenging and humorous anecdotes that arise within the industry.
One of our podcast's core focuses lies in unraveling the physical and mental demands encountered while working in the field. We delve into topics such as proper nutrition and hydration, stress management, relationships, and maintaining focus, offering valuable insights and shared experiences.
Prepare to embark on an immersive journey into the heart of the action, as each episode of The Anchor Point Podcast takes you on an in-depth exploration of the challenges and rewards experienced by fireline operators. Engage in enlightening interviews and discussions with subject matter experts that provide a comprehensive understanding of wildland firefighting.
Whether you are a passionate wildland firefighting enthusiast or an individual seeking to expand your knowledge, The Anchor Point Podcast is an indispensable and trusted resource. Our episodes cover a broad range of topics, including fire behavior, weather patterns, medical know-how, equipment, gear, and the evolving role of technology in firefighting.
The Anchor Point Podcast is your gateway to a unique and invaluable vantage point on the challenges and rewards of fireline work. Whether you're seeking to expand your understanding of wildland firefighting or simply captivated by the extraordinary tales from the frontlines, our podcast is an essential resource. Subscribe today and unlock a wealth of knowledge and inspiration.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
What's going on?
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back.
Today's episode is gonna be brought to you
by Mystery Ranch, built for the mission.
And if you haven't been rocking
a mystery ranch fire line pack.
Well, that sucks.
Yeah.
The Mystery Ranch Fire Line series
is founded basically off the back
of the professional workforce whose
primary duties are the suppression
and management of wildland fires.
Hence, that is you.
And why do they kick ass?
Why do you kick ass?
Well, cuz y'all work together.
Yeah.
Literally, mystery Ranch could not exist.
At least their fire line, uh, packs
could not exist unless it was from
feedback directly from you folks
on the bur on the ground there.
Yeah.
So why do they do this?
Well, simple.
It's because they give a shit and they
give a shit so much that they're giving
away thousand dollars scholarships to
help improve your professional career.
Oh, how's this?
You might ask.
Well, It's easy.
If you heard of the backbone series,
which if you, uh, have ever listened
to this show, I'm pretty sure
you've heard of the Backbone series.
Yeah.
So if you're telling the story of,
uh, wildland Fire and also doing
it to, uh, well potentially get
one of these, uh, thousand dollars
Mystery Ranch Backbone Series
scholarships to advance your career.
Well now's your chance because TikTok
Yeah, deadline is May 31st, 2023.
So hurry up and get those submissions in.
You can go over to www.mysteryranch.com
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you can find all of the, uh, little tips
and tricks and things to do to submit
your story and enter to win one of these
professional development scholarships.
So, once again, go over to
www.mysteryranch.com and
check out the backbone series.
It's awesome.
Think Point podcast is also
gonna be brought to you by our
friends over at Hotshot Brewing.
It's kick ass coffee for a kick
ass cause and a portion of the
proceeds will always go back to the
Wildland Firefighting Foundation.
Yeah, they're pretty cool.
They make some pretty decent coffee too.
And like me, I can't do this stuff
unless I'm overly caffeinated.
So thanks buddy.
Thanks Hotshot Brewery.
Appreciate ya.
But if you, uh, are looking for anything
else besides the kick ass coffee for a
Kick ass Co as well, they have a full
line of the tools of the trade to get your
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So if you wanna find out more, go over to
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Yeah.
And you can even score some of, uh,
the anchor point merch if you're
so happy to be looking for some.
So if you wanna score one of those
Bander Brothers tees or one of
the Fen tees yeah, just go over to
www.hotshotbrewing.com and check it out.
Thank Point Podcast and also like to
have a quick little shoutout to our
buddy booze over at the Ass movement.
And if you don't know what
that is, well it's an acronym
and it's a hilarious acronym.
It stands for the Anti
Surface Shitting Movement.
And it is all for good cause.
It is, it is propaganda of poo bearing
and it is the finest propaganda indeed.
So I don't know about y'all out there,
but I absolutely hate the thought of
a surface turd, whether I'm coming up
to, uh, my favorite chucker hunting
place, or my favorite fly fishing
hole and seeing a human turd gift
wrapped in toilet paper and just
haphazardly placed on the surface.
It's like, come on, guys.
Really do, do we not learn
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So if you wanna help, uh, Spread the
good word about bearing your turds well,
you can go over to www.thefirewild.com
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So once again, go over two
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check out the ass movement.
And last but not least, the Anchor Point
Podcast is gonna be, well, not sponsored
by, but supported by now, not even
supported by, um, how do we present this?
Well, I'm a huge supporter of theirs
and I believe in what they're doing now.
I, they don't pay me for doing these ads.
I just believe in their costs.
So, One, go over to
www.wildfireexperience.org
and check it out.
You may, may possibly know
them as the smokey generation.
What do they do?
Well, it is a catalog of wildland
firefighting stories, dating
all the way back to the 1940s.
It's like a, a digital history lesson
from our peers in the field and some
of those legendary figures that we
call superintendents, hot shots and
operators, our peers, all of that stuff.
It's all located there at
the Wildfire experience.
The American Wildfire experience or
the Smokey Generation, they're all
linked to each other, so, so go over
there, check it out, and while you're
at it, check out the Smoky Generation.
Grant program that they are
doing because it is awesome.
They're giving away $500 grants
to those folks that are telling
the story of Wildland Fire.
Now, time is limited on this one
too, so TikTok, pitter patter, get
at her anyways, Bethany, you have
a kick ass organization out there.
Keep it up.
The views and opinions of this podcast
do not reflect the views and opinions
of the United States government,
the Department of the Interior, the
Department of Defense, the Department
of Agriculture, the United States
Forest Service, the Bureau of Land
Management, national Park Service, the
Bureau of Indian Affairs, or any private
municipal county or state firefighting
organization, any law enforcement
agency, any medical provider, or any
contractor employed by any federal agency.
All right, ladies and gentlemen,
welcome back to another episode
of the Anchor Point Podcast.
I hope everybody's doing well.
Uh, looks like Canada is
getting their ass kicked in.
Yeah, it's like wholesale
ass kicking up there.
I hope everybody's doing all right and
hopeing those, uh, that our Canadian
counterparts are keeping a head on in
the swivel and staying safe up there.
But Jesus man, especially with,
uh, yeah, the Fort McMurray fire.
Kind of like on everybody's
mind still just, Ugh, dude.
Raw deal.
Raw deal indeed.
But anyways, hope everybody's
gearing up for the season.
I hope everybody's, uh,
ready to rock and roll.
But today on the episode, we are going to,
well, we're gonna do a little bit of, uh,
a tell-all a crew tell all from the, uh,
Nevada Bureau of Land Management Cruise.
Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.
We got a lot of, uh, awesome topics.
We're gonna be doing some
demystification of the crew life.
Of course.
We're gonna talk about the old school
versus the new and some of the changes
in operations and mindset and shit.
We even talk about, uh, The, uh,
professionalism, uh, development
of a professional workforce.
And quite frankly, we came to the
conclusion that it's already there.
It's already professional.
Don't fix it if it's not broken.
We're also talking about social media.
The difference between, uh, clout
chasing versus utility on the old social
medias and a litany of other topics like
chasing has hazard time and overtime.
Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
This is a good one.
I think everybody's gonna get a
real good insight as to how crews
operate and what they're all about.
So with that being said, I would
like to introduce some of my good
friends, all from the Nevada.
Bureau of Land Management
Cruise Organization.
I'm just say that out loud.
It's not really an organization, but it's
all the crews pretty much representative
of, uh, across the state of Nevada.
These are folks that I've worked
with and, uh, had the pleasure of
working with in the plat in the past,
and they are some awesome folks.
So with that being said, I would like to
introduce my good friends, Justin Zabala.
He is the former assistant
sup of Ruby Mountain Hotshots
and now the superintendent.
We've got Chris Burlington.
He is the former Lone Peak
I h c superintendent and.
Now he is the fire operations coordinator
for the state office here in Nevada
for the Bureau of Land Management.
We also got Chase Manus, and he is
the former midnight sun superintendent
and Ruby Mountain, uh, hotshots
superintendent, but now he is the
Eastern Nevada Agency, B I A F M O.
And then last but not
least, we've got JP Blair.
He is going to be the Superintendent
of Vegas Valley Veterans Crew.
Those guys are awesome.
Have a lot of history with those
folks, and they are a fine crew indeed.
So I hope everybody enjoys this
episode and I hope that it kind
of demystifies the crew life and
well, you know what to do next.
Welcome to the anchor points.
All right, ladies and gentlemen,
welcome back to another episode
of the Anchor Point Podcast.
Today on the show, I've got
some representation from the
BBL m State of Nevada Cruise.
Like we got a pretty good,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
like,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
mix of every crew, like in the room here.
This is pretty cool, man.
So, uh, yeah.
What's new in the world of cruise?
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I think, I think right now, I'm,
I mean, I know in the, in the blm
it's like working on structuring
the, the, the crew organizations to.
To kind of fit the needs and
kind of promote, um, upward
movement, promote retention.
Um, I know on BLM, Nevada, the crew,
um, we got approval kind of running
the 1, 2, 3, uh, organization.
So one hotshot soup, two
assistance, and three squad leaders.
And kind of the intent, you know, moving
forward it's like if, if some of those
upper level overhead on the crew, it's
like wanna take a roll off or something,
the crew will still meet, you know,
still be fully structured and able to
operate at a high level versus, you
know, having to adjust how you operate
if state at soup's gone or one of the
assistants is, or the assistant's gone.
So a lot
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
more flexibility built into
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
programs, a lot more flexibility.
And then also working on increasing
the amount of, of career employees.
Um, not PFT employees,
career seasonal employees.
Yeah,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
we don't want any more.
Uh, pf ts.
Yeah, you say
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
ts and a lot of people cringe, you
know, it's like people don't want
'em, especially on crews, right?
Hotshot crews, hand crews, type two
IA crews, all that stuff, right?
People don't wanna fucking work.
All year round.
They don't want a 26 and oh,
I mean not a lot of 'em do.
I mean they're probably burnt out
by the time they like get done
with their ass kicker of a season,
especially like a 1200 hour season.
Right.
Yeah.
That's just my opinion.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
And I think there's like some, some
differing opinions on professionalizing
the workforce because I feel like
there's a group of people that think
making people 12 month PFT employees
is professionalizing the workforce.
And I don't necessarily agree with that.
I think the hot jack crews are,
are super professional as it is.
Oh a hundred percent.
And I mean there's even topic,
having all the crews, you know, be
in career positions, even if they
are career seasonal positions.
Um, but I think there's always gonna
be room for that temporary workforce.
Cuz like looking back, um, through
the crews that I've run, it's
like some of the hardest hitting
hot shots were those seasonals.
You know, they might only be on the crew
for three or four seasons, but they.
You know, show up, throw down for four,
four and a half months, and then go
off, you know, travel the world or live
in the forest, go to school, whatever.
Squirrels, I don't
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
know what they do, but that,
that, that fresh blood just keeps
the, uh, the status quo away.
And it, it, it breeds competition, which
keeps the crew operating at a high level.
I, I left, uh, the Forest Service
over in California because there was
too many pf ts uh, being a captain
there was terrible, uh, being a squad
leader there would probably be even
worse just due to the fact that you
are the day-to-day work leader that
has to find work for those guys.
And when overhead sees 20 plus
people on the books every day,
they want to send them somewhere.
And unfortunately that's hard work.
Stacking sticks and shit, stacking sticks,
burning for, you know, we were doing,
uh, we'd go down on Monday and come home
on Friday, but we'd go burn for five
days and be gone from the family or.
You know, so that's how I ended up
in Nevada was Pft s Yeah, I actually,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I got a phone call from a
GS three Pft from one of the
California crews with G Wait was
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
three full-time permanent.
Yeah.
G
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
GS three T straight off the street.
They'll hire you.
Holy shit.
No experience.
He,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
he was miserable because they're
just covered in snow and there
was no work he could actually do.
And he was a skier and was
just dreaming about skiing.
He just looking up at the hill.
I actually think he ended up
working for Silver State, honestly.
I think Silver State picked him up.
So he got outta that scene.
And you, you keep making
pft too many people.
Pft, you know, that's, I feel
like that's gonna be the trend.
They're gonna filter
to the less year round.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
And they, they still go away.
These guys, they, a bunch of these
guys got duped without getting into
the weeds, but you don't know what
you're getting into right off the bat.
So no, fuck no.
When a forest, f m o or a, uh, you
know, some hiring official calls you.
And he says, and they started at
the top, so they were doing 26 and
oh, then they bumped it down to
18 and eight, and then 13 and 13.
We had to ask about it.
Yeah.
So they would call you and
ask if you wanted a career
job, and you'd go, of course.
And then they'd start you off, okay,
well we'd like you to work year round.
How's that for you?
You know, and it's your first job and
you're like, okay, yeah, sounds great.
Or like if, but if you, if you
had a friend and they had told
you, you go, well, uh, what
about like the seasonal thing?
And they go, oh, okay.
Yeah, 18 and eight.
And then if you really had some
friends that told you and, and you
pressured the hiring official, you
could ask for a 13 and 13 career job.
But Yeah.
But they weren't advertising.
They didn't start at the bottom
and they weren't really advertising
that across the fence anyways.
And Cali, as much as it
started at the 26th, no.
And trickled down.
Gotcha.
So some guys showed up on day one.
You know, and they get a computer
and a card and link pass.
Yeah.
They're doing like a big
onboarding thing and we're like,
welcome to the rest of your life.
And they're like, whoa,
no, I want to get laid off.
We're like, that doesn't happen, bro.
Think
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
again.
Um, that's been, that's another
thing too you brought up too, is
like, uh, like the boredom, right?
Especially in the winter, in the
shoulder seasons when you don't
really have shit to do, you can't go
burn because you're buried in snow.
I, it's like, is that saying
like, there's nothing more
dangerous than a board marine?
Mm-hmm.
No, same thing with hotshots.
There's nothing more dangerous
than a board hotshot.
So I, yeah.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Well, when you look at some of
these career positions, you know,
a career three and, and what are
they taking home on a base wage?
You know, you have your benefits, you have
your retirement, you know, if they decide
to throw stuff in the TSP so that that
GS three career position is not making as
much take home as that GS three seasonal.
And unfortunately they're not,
they're not looking long term.
They don't quite, some do, but
they don't quite realize the value
of the retirement tsp, et cetera.
But they're looking at what's
going on my bank account.
Oh yeah.
And when it's 500 bucks less, then.
You know, person here that's a GS three
seasonal, you know, that that is a
conversation that they, they, they kind
of get shocked with like, oh, crap.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Well, I think it's one of those
conversations that's not really had
too often because when you're, when
I was 19, 20 years old, I wasn't
fucking thinking about retirement, man.
I mean, what I like to
retire by the time I'm 45.
Sure.
Is it realistic for me?
Fuck no, Dan, I mean, I cashed
out my t s p to buy a house when
I got outta the game, but I mean,
that's what I had to do, man.
But I think a lot of people don't really
understand the, the long-term gains.
I mean, if you could suffer
through eating Wonder bread and
fucking ramen, by all means do it.
But.
That's seasonal of life at the same
time, man, you gotta make, thats
decision between like doing hood rat
shit in the, in the wintertime and
the summertime, or being pf t and
paying in for the long term gains.
Right?
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Well, I think there's always kind
of the, you know, just a, a joke
about, oh, usually that second year
hotshot, they show up with a brand
new Tacoma, brand new whatever.
They're hotshot rich, you know,
because they, they're rolling
in the cash in the summer.
They're like, heck yeah, I'm
gonna do it again next year.
But you have that conversation
of like, Hey, let's, why
don't you open up a Roth ira?
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Ah, yeah, I'm good.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, it's like when the
b i l money hit, right?
And I was like, hold up, hold up, hold up.
You guys are gonna be like hotshot.
This is like a windfall event
for a lot of people out there.
Especially the lower levels
we're not established.
You're just like a single person out
there and you're just, I don't know,
buying Tacomas and shit like that.
It's like, fucking don't
buy the te brand new Tacoma.
Go save that shit.
Invest in your future, man.
I was like trying to push that
narrative cuz I wish I had not made
those mistakes that I have fun.
Oh yeah, I had a lot of fun.
But now you have this windfall event.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
What do you do with it?
We're actually advising
in good, bad, indifferent.
Like you almost have to advise the GS
three not to take all the career options.
Um, definitely put something in your
T S P, but if you take the expensive
healthcare and the top life insurance
and all of that stuff, like you're
gonna literally not be able to eat.
Yeah.
Um, if, if you're living in the
barracks and you have a good barracks
cost, you're, you're gonna live
very, very tight in the wintertime.
If you have good life insurance, good
health insurance, and you're putting a
little bit away in your T s p, um, the
worst was during the covid stuff, when
the guys who had taken the career jobs,
um, were making significantly less money
than the guys who were on unemployment.
We had guys trying to get laid off.
Uh, can I just go to l wp?
Like, they were trying to figure
out how they could get back
into that covid unemployment
money that was so much bigger.
The bottom line, like you said, cuz.
These guys are living at the barracks
eating Ramen and Wonder Bread, and
their buddies are out partying, man,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
closing down
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
the bar and eating steaks and shit.
Yeah, they're getting like Airbnbs
together, you know, cuz it's
supposed to be the Covid lockdown.
So they meet up in some city and
get a Airbnb for a month together
and just pay for it, which is
probably dirt cheap because of Covid.
Yeah.
And in the meantime, we're asking
GS three s in California to come to
work because there might be a fire.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I mean, facts, dude.
It's, that's how it is.
But that's a game we play, right?
That's the decisions that we make
and it's ultimately up to us.
But I think we just need to be better at
producing that message and saying like,
Hey, these are the choices that you have
to make to either take the long term
or go and do the, the short term stuff.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Well, going back to what Chase said,
we, we have a lot of flexibility here
in Nevada when things get brought
up, like the, the second captain
at and the three squad leaders.
As long as we can make it makes sense.
Um, and.
And, and show the reasons why
I feel supported enough from
our leadership that they're at
least gonna let us give it a try.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I haven't bought onto the 1, 2, 3 yet.
Um, just we're a veteran crew.
We have a different structure
and our over, or our turnover
is quite a bit different.
Um, but that's not to say
that it wouldn't work.
I, I want to look at how it comes,
but we do have a lot of support.
It seems like anything that we bring
up as a good idea gets pushed all the
way and gets support coming back down.
It's not like a, it's,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's the fuck around and
find out graph, right?
I mean, if you come up with a good
idea, you gotta test the waters,
but sometimes it doesn't work out.
And.
If, if things go too far without a lot
of, I guess, insight or like, thought into
it, they just like implement a policy or
a plan, there's gonna be repercussions,
both good and bad or maybe unforeseen.
Right?
Yeah.
So anyways, let's go around the
table and introduce ourselves.
Give us a little background story
about who you are, what you've done.
Take it away, man.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Yeah, I'll, I'll go ahead and start.
Uh, Kris Burlington current position,
uh, fire operations coordinator, uh, with
B L M Nevada out of our state office.
And, and really what that position
entails is, uh, you know, kind of a,
a special projects doer, if you will.
Uh, I like to still stay engaged with
the engine programs, the crew programs,
uh, really kind of just, you know, all,
all sorts of stuff come my way from
our operational medical sport program.
Uh, you know, engine, uh,
captain, uh, committee sounds like
we'll be getting stood up here.
Um, you know, former, uh, prior to
that, uh, it was a battalion chief for
a, a Foz Fire Operation Specialist,
uh, with Idaho Falls, b l m.
Uh, and before that, uh, hotshot soup
for, uh, lone Peac hot shots, uh, outta
Salt Lake, uh, non-federal program.
Uh, was there, uh, soup for,
I can't remember how many
year, years, five years or so.
And then, uh, on the crew, uh, late,
uh, essentially winter of 2005.
And then, uh, just type two
IA hand crews before that.
So primarily all my experiences, uh,
is really the hand crew, uh, portion.
And then, uh, a little bit of, uh,
engine, uh, you know, program supervision.
Nice.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Good man.
Yeah.
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
My name's Justin Zeba.
I'm the current assistant
superintendent right now.
Uh, had a tentative job offer,
which I'll be getting the soup
position this next Monday.
Congratulations,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
by the way.
Yeah, thank you.
Uh,
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
this will be my 13th
season on Ruby Mountain.
Hot Shots started as a GS
three, worked my way up.
So I've pretty much have done
every position on one crew.
Um, before that I worked.
For the type two IA crew outta Elco
Nevada, the e n a Eastern Nevada Agency.
And then, uh, the next
season went to Wells, Nevada
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
on an engine.
Nice.
So, right on,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
uh, I'm Chase Manus.
I, uh, cut out a little bit there,
but, um, my, I started my career the
day after I graduated high school.
I actually missed my graduation party.
Oh no shit.
Cuz I had to take S 1 31 90, uh,
I was a gray back contract crew.
Uh, did that for four Seasons and then
I went up to Alaska as a crew member
on the, the midnight Sun Hot Shots.
Was there for about a decade.
Uh, worked my way up to the, the
superintendent position there.
Did that for my last two seasons.
And then in 2020.
Transferred down to BBL m Nevada to
run the, the Ruby Mountain Hotshots.
Did that for three seasons.
And then last month I took the
Eastern Nevada Agency bia, A F M
O position on the Elco District.
Um, and just kind of getting
into that role and figuring
out what all that entails.
It's kind of a unique thing because,
uh, I'm a B L M employee, um, but
I'm funded through a re reimbursable
agreement through the bia, uh, to
kind of serve as their A F M O and
manage the camp crews and the, the
hand crew for Eastern Nevada Agency.
So Nice.
I'm still, um, getting into it
and, uh, sometimes questioning
my, my life decisions, but I
think I did it for the right
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
reasons.
Well, congratulations as well, man.
Thank you.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
I'm JP Blair.
I'm the current superintendent at Vegas
Valley Veterans on the Southern Nevada
District, uh, BLM down in Las Vegas.
I started my career with Mill Creek
Hot Shots on the San Bernardino.
I did, uh, the apprenticeship
program through there.
I converted up at Big Barrett
and worked for Frank Esposito.
Um, yeah, uh, I left there, I
went down to, uh, Vista Grande,
did a squad leader detail there.
Got a squad boss job at, at Del Rosa.
Um, worked for Neil Gabo there
for a while before he took off.
Um, went back to Vista Grande and
did a, another detail as a captain
up there working for Brett Pati.
And then, uh, I got my captain job back
at Del Rosa working for Dave Ferrero.
Um, I enjoyed all of it down there.
Um, there was some unique challenges.
Definitely got my teeth cut and, uh,
that's where I learned everything.
But I have no qualm with leaving.
Uh, it was a very good place
to grow up, but it was a very
good place to walk away from.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Nice.
Yeah, that's that whole thing.
It was a big topic of discussion
throughout this entire week is that
you, when you're moving around and
trying to move up through the ranks,
you kind of got you, you have to
move, like you have to move around.
Right.
Especially on crews like traditionally
a lot of that upward movement is really
like blocked cuz a lot of people, once
they get into the hot shot or the crew
life, they kind of tend to stay there.
Like once they're on a crew and
they're dialed, they like the
crew squad's not gonna be leaving
like every three to five years.
It's not, it just doesn't happen.
So let's talk about that man,
like crew life in general and like
opportunities that are out there.
Just like some unique differences
that it is unique to crews that not
really like hell attack or engines or
other types of crews out there have.
Yeah.
I mean
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
for Ruby, uh, like I said, I've
been on Ruby for 13 years now.
Came and watched a lot of
dialed, dialed guys leave.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and at least I think it
just comes down to location.
And then as you come up, like they
talked about converting people to pft.
Once you get into your thirties, you're
having kids, people are getting married.
Yep.
Pretty much everyone that I talk to, all
the alumnis, you know, we're down here
in Reno, tying in with them and they're
always curious about the crew cuz you
go through all that stuff with them.
Uh, but they'd say, you know, you gotta
do it cuz of your family location.
Maybe they can't move their wife's
significant other takes a few, few people
that'll do it, but most people won't.
So location, at least our crew, like
traditionally three to five years,
then you're getting that hard turnover.
So if you are smart and you are
looking for, you know, to move up
super quick, Ruby's the way to go.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
Yeah, and I'd, I'd kind of second that
with, I know with midnight Sun Hot shots.
I mean there was a soup that was there for
a long time and retired in that position.
But after, after he left, I
think 2009 was his last season.
Um, Quite a bit of, of, of turnover.
Um, and I, I think people get up,
they move up into like the squad
leader ranks, tour duties start
getting extended a little bit and
they kind of hit a hard decision.
It's like, am I gonna move here
and this is gonna be my life, or
am I gonna go do something else?
And I think a lot of 'em
go do something else.
Like I was able to move up pretty quick,
um, through the midnight, midnight Sun
hotshots, kind of for that same reason.
It's like, people don't wanna
live in Fairbanks in the winter.
Yeah.
Cause it's 40 below and dark
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
and inexpensive as fuck.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
Inexpensive.
So,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
um, yeah, for me, I just, I
took every opportunity that
came, I put in for details.
Um, I had been in the Marine Corps
and I was just basically trying to get
my rank and leadership ability back.
Um, and then instead of a gun, I had
a chainsaw or, or radio at one point.
Um, but I definitely had to move around.
I, I commuted for, uh, two
hours to go to big bar.
So it was a two hour turnaround.
Um, either way, stand up there,
living up there in the barracks.
So just a lot of sacrifice.
But, you know, in order to
get that next jump, um, it was
definitely a lot of sacrifice.
And I, I think a lot of
people are doing that now.
There's a lot of dudes, especially
down at South Ops, you didn't
used to work on different crews.
You didn't want to go there.
You, you weren't welcome.
Um, I, I definitely was an outsider at
Del Rosa when I got my squad leader job.
Uh, I didn't get the detail there.
I was not the pick.
Um, I think I ended up being the
pick after I approved myself.
But, um, you know, but now there's
a lot of people that are willing
to move around for opportunity.
Um, and maybe they figure out that a
location that might not be the most ideal
works out for one reason or another.
Some, some people's wives like to
slow down and some like to speed
up and, I mean, just whatever
flavor works for you, right?
Yeah.
And like down in Vegas, we, we don't get
a lot of people that want to come work
there because they, all they see is the
lights of the strip and they don't know
that, you know, 15 miles West is nothing.
It's Red Rock, followed by the
Nevada desert Aliens and shit.
Yeah.
So we get these guys that want
to go work in the, the middle
of nowhere and we're like, dude,
Nevada is the middle of nowhere.
Oh yeah.
Like as soon, you know, it works
for Carson, Reno, uh, Vegas.
Anywhere those places you drive
30 miles and you're nowhere.
It's the cool thing
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
about Nevada though, it's like everything.
And, and we had this discussion
too, and I don't wanna like
plug any, like bitching spots.
Like I, I'm try and keep our secrets as
like landmarks and cool shit to see in
Nevada like, Kind of under wraps, but
like, think about the road systems here.
You got like 3 95, you got 50, you got 80.
It's like all the shitty parts of Nevada.
All the cool stuff is like,
well off the beaten path.
And that's the cool thing about cruise
is you get a unique opportunity to see
all that shit, especially in Nevada, man.
And then even going out
state, off district, right?
You get to see all the other
cool shit that's pretty much
been untouched by humanity.
And for hand crews, esp, Vegas,
hand crews, they're fucking awesome.
You guys are awesome.
I've worked with you guys a lot, worked
with Ruby, I've worked with Silver
State, I've worked with Black Mountain,
I've worked with all these crews, man.
And uh, it, it's, it's cool because
you get to do a lot of cool shit
like tip of the spirit, right?
Hotshot, I mean, what, what, what's
an average day in the life of a
hotshot for the people that are
thinking about getting into there?
Obviously if you're on a hotshot crew,
you know what to expect, but for those
folks look to jump into the ranks of shot.
Let's, let's take it
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
there, man.
There I was deep in a stump
hole in the center of Nevada.
Covered in fire Beatles.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
There I was in a 12 foot
overhead Velcro brush.
Um, looking at my, I saw partner who was
equally dying, um, asking him if he had
any water left and it was only 12 o'clock.
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
Yeah, I mean, what makes hot
shouting fun is you look down the
line, you know you're hurting.
And I look over and see Chase and he's a
lot, he's hurting a lot more than I am.
And then you just, you, you just
smile and you just say you're doing
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
okay.
Yeah.
Kinda embrace the suck
mentality, but yeah.
You're all sharing, you're all eating
the same turd sandwich at the end of
the day, but you're getting shit done.
Yeah.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
Yeah.
I mean I, I'd say being a hotshot,
I'm super biased cause that's really
all I've ever done, but, um, probably
the best, best job in fire for sure.
And it's like people in fire, it's
like, whether it's a detail or
whatever, it's like I would recommend
everybody like at least get that
experience that, that camaraderie.
It's like whether early season PT and
as a crew or even on the fire line,
you know, it's like the amount of.
The amount of work that a group
of moti motivated humans can
accomplish is like, impressive.
Like I remember after long shifts, like
looking back and, you know, putting like
a three mile swath through the, through
the tundra and ak, you know, and like
it's a highway looking back and seeing
the highway that, you know, the crew
was over able to put in over a few days.
It's like, it's always,
always impressed me.
And you know, I've, I've met a
lot of, a lot of great people and
people that I still keep in touch
with to this day through that job.
And kind of, I guess through that, you
know, the misery that we endured together.
So, I don't know, best job on
fire and then you get a spot over
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
that and yeah.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Yeah.
I think one of the things that keeps,
uh, like the guys coming back, or maybe
even initially, it tracks him as, you
never really know for sure what a day
in the life of a hotshot looks like.
Um, just because it's rapidly changing.
There's always something new.
Um, usually when you start to get in
a groove and, and you think you know,
what the day's gonna look like is when
you do get that spot or, um, somebody
else needs your help or a different
division becomes a new priority.
Or you think you were gonna go to
Reno, but you get turned and next thing
you know, you're in Southern Idaho.
Um, you thought you were gonna r
and r somewhere cool like the gsr
and instead you end up in Alamo.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
I like just the, uh,
the diversity of people.
Sure.
There's, there's, there's diversity that
you can put on a, a spreadsheet, but just,
you know, I, I remember, you know, running
my crew, I, I had an individual that
was an attorney, uh, uh, past the bar.
He was an attorney, had an
individual that, uh, you know,
quite a few out of, out of.
South la like just some,
some hard, hard living.
Mm-hmm.
You had people coming from, from
wealth, just good solid middle class
people and, and just to come together
and, and form, form that team and,
and kind of shift and get 'em to drink
your Kool-Aid, you know, become that
like-minded, you know, program and, and
just get out and, and get shit done.
And, and coming together on the side
of the hill with, with other crews,
other soups and, and having that vision
and, and that strong forward lean is
just, it's, it's freaking awesome.
Uh, and, you know, and, and other parts
of our fire community, you can, you can
get some of that, but I just haven't
been able to match it, you know, fully.
And, and yeah.
Just, you know, you're, you're all just,
you're just there to get shit done.
Yeah.
And some days just suck.
And some days are what you see on YouTube.
You know, you really, you know,
you see some, some badass stuff
like what you see on YouTube.
But I remember one year our
crew video was like, no fire.
Like it's no, no open flame.
Like no tree torch, no big burnouts.
Like they did it anyways, but you
know, it's none, none of the hero shit.
Let's show like
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
what this sound, I always thought
it was, I always thought it was
funny that uh, hot checkers put so
much aircraft like cuz coming from
Southern California, they would just
put like, like the air tanker montage.
It was like two minutes of air
tankers just blasting with like a
white or blue or red hat in the back.
And I'm like, I asked the guys one year,
uh, do you think that the tanker base,
when they put on their end of the year
crew video is just like a bunch of lines
of hot shots on the ground getting painted
with retardant, that they have like a
four minute montage of helicopters, like
ditching loads on the dudes or like, You
know, bringing in sling loads of water
or like, and of course the answer's no.
Yeah.
Well then why are we including
so much aircraft in ours?
Like, is that the only thing you got?
We
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
had to, we had to limit the amount
of bucket drop videos on the
Ruby Mountain Crew video for that
reason, for like, all right, no
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
more than two clips.
Yep.
You understand.
Had to
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
cap it.
Why don't we get it?
That's the only time that you're kind
of standing around, cuz nobody wants to
be the guy that gets caught when you're
supposed to be digging or cutting, you
know, taking a video of your buddy.
I, I definitely started to see
the importance in those times
because there was lacking so bad.
But who's the right person to do that?
You know, like I always thought,
oh, when I'm not on the saw, I'm
gonna set up a tripod and I'm
gonna put it on a time lapse.
That way you can see these bushes
go away and then the dig comes by
and I never ever took the time to
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
do shit.
You probably don't even
have time to do it.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Well you, you know, it was always this
thing in the back of my mind that I was
gonna make time to do it and I never did.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, that's one of the things though
too, is like, you know, I had this
discussion a couple times with, uh, some
other folks as well, but like the whole
like draw the pros and cons of like
social media and like taking some photos
and sharing 'em with your friends or
on your Instagram or fucking whatever.
Right.
I think it's really powerful
because especially on the shot shot
community, man, it's like fight
club and you, like you don't, you
don't talk about fight club, right.
Don't talk about your
day-to-day operations.
You don't have a lot of like
storytelling involved, especially
with hotshots and smoke jumpers.
Right.
But the importance of telling that
story like in a public fashion, I
think it's critical to telling your
story and promoting our agencies and
what we do the good we actually do.
Yeah.
Do we light a lot of shit on
fire and cut down a lot of trees?
Yeah.
But it's a necessary evil
to accomplish the mission.
Right.
You gotta sacrifice the
makers to save a lot of acres.
Right.
So what's your guys' stance on that?
I mean, and obviously granted there is a
time and place for doing the fucking hero
shot, the do it for the Graham stuff.
Right.
But do you think that's like.
One of those things that you've seen
change over the years, like where it's
more acceptable, like socially and
culturally acceptable to like, share that
story and what's your thoughts on it?
I mean,
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat you to
the punch there cuz uh, you know, I
was fortunate with the crew I ran.
It was, you know, and as a soup it was a
little bit sooner and we, we had that hard
line, no cell phones on the line, period.
Yeah.
Uh, un Unless you were in a
leadership role for a reason, Dick.
Exactly.
And, and, and one, it was just more
for the, the awareness factor, uh,
essay, you know, and, and, and,
and trying to not be like just
no cell phones because I said so.
But, you know, really trying to, trying to
tie together to the reason why the intent.
Um, but also we, you know, I think
there's a difference in telling the story.
And bragging.
Oh, a hundred percent.
And I think Instagram, the Facebook,
the tweets, whatever, there's,
there's way, way too much bragging
and, and not enough humility.
Yeah.
They're
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
doing it for the ass
and the glory basically.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
It's a, the, the clickbait,
whatever
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
you want to call it.
And, and, and I, like, I, I, for me, I try
to really be a humble person and I always
try to teach and mentor like humility.
You know, be confident, but be humble.
Yeah.
Um, you don't need to post all
this badass shit like, you know,
the badass shit that we do.
We know the shitty stuff, the
boring the mind, whatever.
But you don't need to advertise it.
But there is, there is a time and a place
to sell the story, to paint the picture
and, and show the sacrifice as well.
And, and I think as, as an agency,
the B l m, I think we have good, good
entities that are, are trying to show
that and, and capture the sacrifice
and the, you know, the hero shots and.
And, and just the human aspect,
that's a big one right there.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
The human component of
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
it.
Right.
Exactly.
But what you, you lose with that
individual, um, posting on Instagram
or whatever, it's for what?
Yeah.
Like for what?
Just to be like, yeah, look at me.
Uh, that's my opinion.
The, Hey, look, I'm a firefighter.
Exactly.
Paul, go to, here's my fire.
I don't know.
That's, that's how I kind of see
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I I, I actually found that, uh, I know
it's probably not the case nationwide,
like all the firefighters, cause I know
there's some good people that post some
good stuff on social media, but I kind
of found that the people, uh, you know,
first, second year hot shots that are most
active on posting the glory stuff on their
social media we're actually generally
like the lowest performers on the crew.
Yeah.
Generally.
And then, no, that's, you know,
generalization, I'm sure it's not the
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
case.
Everybody's very distracted.
Like, like they might be a very
good cutter and they want to
produce, but they're distracted
throughout the day, multiple times
trying to get those, or when they.
Should be doing something differently.
They're doing it in a different
way to show a different
perspective on social media.
Yeah.
I, I personally got my ass kicked in
recruiting this here by social media.
Um, and by not having like a, a
crew page and for me, I we're gonna
need to do something because I, I've
literally had guys call back and say,
Hey, I'm gonna go here because they
have more of a social media presence.
I don't know that that's everywhere
yet, but I had multiple people tell me
that, um, which I said, you know, good.
Um, I think it's a great recruiting tool.
It's a good way to sell the,
the changes within your program.
And like for me, I want to highlight
like the barracks, cuz we have
great facilities in Southern, you
guys are still outta Red Rock,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
right?
Yeah.
That place
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
kicks ass.
It's awesome.
I wanna, I want to, uh, you know, like,
uh, highlight the people, not the action
of like, not the big picture of the guy
cutting the tree or the big burnout.
Everybody's seen that, but this
is this person, this is a story.
Um, the internal workings of the B l m
webpage, they have two separate things.
So they highlight people in one,
and then we have the, what is it,
the firefighter photo contest.
Mm-hmm.
And that's kind of all the hero shots,
you know, where, where a guy does set
up a camera in his downtime and takes
him rad picture of a B l M engine with
the Northern lights in the background.
But, um, they're more
calculated than that.
But yeah, it was like planned out.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
But, you know, when the Northern
Lights are going, it's nighttime.
It's not like you're out on a line.
And I, I, I see the utility in it.
And like you said there, I don't think
it's necessarily people following or
joining up for a crew just because
of their social media presence.
Cuz that's a bullshit excuse.
I,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
I think there is at least one crew
that people join, if not a few,
that people join for social media.
Mm-hmm.
Because once you're tied in with
one of those crews that has a big
following, You are gonna personally
get a bigger following and that's
why people have social media.
Yeah.
It's the dopamines that come,
the heart rate that comes with
checking it and seeing that
it's no different than gambling.
Yeah.
That somebody thinks you're cool.
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you think about when we're spiked
out or we don't have cell service.
Think about what the crew does.
They talk with, with no,
they talk to each other.
They're talking, they're
coming up with unique things.
The, the crew, crew bonding's going on.
And then when we get back into
service and you know, we've been
out for, let's say six, seven days.
These guys are chomping at the bit souping
foremans going in and they got service.
Where are they getting this stuff?
And it's like, things are different, but
like, yeah, you can get 'em serviced,
but the crew, uh, their production and
everything's a lot better when they're
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
not distracted.
Yeah.
And that, um, that cohesion is lost.
I mean, there's the before, I mean, when
I started your cell, you had a cell phone.
Sup probably led us bring to the
line or didn't really know or care.
Um, but they didn't work.
No.
I mean, you, as soon as you drove out
of a major city, they didn't work.
You didn't have service.
Dude, I had a Motorola flip phone.
Yeah.
And so it wasn't even, it
wasn't, wasn't even a thing.
And if you took a picture, it was
so grainy and crappy that you, you
weren't really proud to show it off.
Yeah.
And they couldn't, you know, you
couldn't see all the detail in the
capase of this tree and all this stuff.
And it, it's changed a lot.
There's
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
crews out there with dedicated
photographers, which, you know, I mean,
it's, and I know the crews that you're
talking about, I'm not gonna like,
call 'em out or anything like that
because sometimes they do good work.
I mean, there's also, you know, crews out
there that happen to have a large show
for me to follow me that might be, If
I've worked with them in the past, they
might not have been the best, or they
could be actually pretty fucking dialed.
You know, it's, it's the good and the
bad, and that exists anywhere within
our community, within a crew with our
hell attack crew, anything out there.
But I think that, uh, it's, I
think that going back into like
the social media following, I think
that they have that following.
I don't necessarily think that
people are joining up with that
crew specifically for that.
I just think they have a
better storytelling mission.
That's the, they're
communicating visually.
Right?
They're telling their story.
But I
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
could be, I'm not gonna call those
crews out either, but they're there.
Yeah.
I'd rather,
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
uh, I'd just rather work with a, a badass
crew to get shit done, and then I don't
need to go and check it out on the website
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
to see if, well, it's like that
analogy right there, right.
Once you're in the pros, once you're
in the N F L, why fucking gloat.
You're there.
You're a pro.
You don't need to tell
people you're a pro.
You, you were there.
You don't need to gloat about it.
Right.
And that's what the hotshots are.
You're in the fucking pro leagues man.
Mm-hmm.
So,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
and I do know that,
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
you know, maybe this table here that,
that, that vision might be biased
towards one direction because, you
know, as, as you, you shift your culture
and it comes up through the ranks and
you know that that individual I hired,
you know, in 2000, you know, eight,
you know, when they start running a
crew here in five years, they might
have that different perspective.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't know, is that
right or wrong for me?
I, that's not, that's not how I jive.
It's not my jam, but, but I don't
think it's, I'm not gonna call it wrong
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
either.
Yeah.
It's just an individual thing, man.
I think it's, uh, one of those
things where it's like it
could be utilized for great.
Good.
Also, it could be like
total type two shit, right?
Mm-hmm.
Just depends on what flavor.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
And I know on, on Ruby we kind of
just operate under the mentality.
It's like we had a, a, a guy on the crew.
I mean, obviously he would, he would
work, but, um, he had full rain.
Any, anything we're doing, if
he stopped taking pictures or
videos, Like, that was his job.
He was the crew video guy.
Yeah.
He was like the document.
Yeah.
And there's, there's been some
really great crew videos that
have been produced, but it's not
something that we blast out there.
You know what I mean?
No, that's, that's a culture thing for,
it's for the crew to like look back
and, and reflect, you know what I mean?
And I will give the, the BLM
props because, um, they've done
a good job of getting out with
the crew and taking action shots.
Telling our story, telling our story.
Um, and I really like that cause
it's like we're able to just
fully focus on the mission, uh,
get the work on the fire done.
And they're dealing with,
you know, taking photos.
Yeah.
You might have somebody in
your face taking a picture or
taking a video or whatever.
But that for me, you know, instead
of having to absorb all of that
and be like, all right, it's
just another duty as a song.
You're the social media guy.
You know what I mean?
That's, that's your job is to
deal with the social media.
It's like, I think the bl m's done
a really good job of kinda like
coming in and like telling our story
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
for us.
They have, yeah.
The, the photography.
You know, like the historical,
uh, captures and, and all that.
It's nothing new.
I mean, there's, there's a tradition
that's been going around, well,
there's people at South Canyon that
had, you know, cameras in their back,
vhs, camcorders in their backpacks,
um, dudes that were carrying and
actively taking fire line pictures.
OIDs.
Yeah.
Like there's a lot of, uh, stuff
that comes out in like, um, two
more chains and stuff like that.
There's like these historical photos where
there were, was a big event that happened.
It's somebody had a full size, like
35 millimeter camera in their pocket.
So that aspect is nothing new.
And I, like Chase said, I think that
capturing those moments, especially for
alumni, the crew history, things like
that, it, it's extremely important.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Oh yeah.
I mean, think about all the traditions
in like history behind hot shotting.
Where is it all found only
within the cruise, right.
That's, that's something that I think
that is, it's something that I kind
of wanna change, uh, eventually.
I kinda wanna put some of that stuff out.
Obviously not like the funny ass stories
that is Crew secrets obviously, but you
know, just like a history, like you're all
of your, your hitters in the game man that
have maybe still been around or may have
passed and just capturing that moment.
I think that there's a, a
missing piece there cuz we don't
know shit about Cruise Man.
It's like, there's like this element
of mystery and mysticism and it's,
it's, it's just not told man.
It to, in my perspective at least.
It's only told within Cruise it's very
tribal and it's very like oral history.
It's, it's, I don't know man.
It's, and I'd love to see it shown.
Yeah, there
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
used to be a, I can't even remember
where it resides, but, you know, part
of the, the larger, you know, fire
leadership website or, or whatever,
but you, you, you could use to
nominate, you know, leaders in the
community to, to have their history.
Somebody would sit down and, you know,
and spend a couple hours and, and try
to try to get that oral history and,
you know, and then of course, you
know, I, I don't know if the little
hotshot, you know, history book's
been updated for, for a while, but
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
that's, that's us
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
hotshots association's
in, in charge of that.
Right.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I think, I think there's just
some drama surrounding that
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
right
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
now.
There is, yeah.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Sure.
I, there is definitely that.
And then, you know, you look at, at just
the different crews and, and how they view
their, their history and their tradition.
And, you know, I know for me, when,
when I was a soup, I really tried to
involve, you know, the, the alumni,
you know, those, those individuals
that have come through, you know, our
particular program, you know, involving
the former soup, uh, you know, involving
those, the, you know, the overhead and,
and just like, you know, the emails
and the, Hey, here's our crew party.
It's not just.
You know, 2012 crew party.
It's, it's, it's the cruise
party end of season closeout.
You guys are all more than welcome
to come and just to like bridge
that gap from the well back in the
day, well this is how we do it now.
You know, and, and just
getting, getting that mix.
And it, it was always met with mixed,
you know, reviews I guess if you will,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
but I almost saw, uh, a good throwdown
at a reunion at, of Vista Grande reunion.
They had their 40th and there's a guy that
showed up in the old vest, you know, so
he's got the red historical pon vest on
from like the late seventies, I think.
And he's like reading the
rights to a group of dudes
that are currently on the crew.
And these guys are just taking it
because this guy's older, you know?
Yeah.
And finally, one of the, the dudes
that's currently on the crew kind of
just like, gets in this dude's face
a little bit and goes, well, how long
were you on the crew for anyways?
And he goes, I did five and a half months.
And, and this was a, one of those
old school temps, he had done
11 years on the crew as a temp.
And, uh, he was just, he
came too kindly to it.
Yeah.
He was just like, He was humble about
it, but he was like, well man, like
you might need to check your, your
group that you're talking to because
like, these guys are all full-time.
This guy's a, you know,
been a detailed squatty.
This dude's been on the crew for 10 years.
I've been on the crew for 10 years,
and the guy was quite a bit taken back.
But there was like this stigma at the
start of it where all the guys with
their red jackets and the guys who had
been on the crew in the seventies and
eighties, like didn't want to talk to any
of the new dudes, but it, it got broken
up over that and a, a big Vata beer
that got pushed into the middle shut up
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
drink.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I don't, I don't want to
digress this conversation too
far, but I got a funny story.
Uh, so a couple months ago when I,
when I realized I was gonna be leaving
the crew and taking another job,
I, my oldest daughter's four and a
half, and I, I broke the news to her.
I'm like, Hey, just so you know, you know,
daddy's not gonna be a hotshot anymore.
And she just got super quiet, started
to see some tears build up in her
eyes and she's like, so we don't get
to go the hotshot parties anymore.
We're still gonna the hotshot parties.
But I, I just thought that was funny.
Cause that's just been the crew, you
know, between midnight son and Ruby.
It's like, since she was born, like
that's been part a big part of her life,
you know, that's been super influential.
I thought that's funny.
Like, that's all she cared about.
She doesn't care about me being
around more, she just cares about the
hotshot party at the end of the year.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.: So
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's funny though, because like
the, the culture thing though, it's
like we, people that haven't had any
experience in the hotshot realm, like
they look at hotshot crew and they're
like, it's kind of like standoffish.
You're like, oh, go over there.
You can go over there.
We can go fucking ask 'em for some help.
You know?
But in the reality of reality of, of it
is, is that you guys are doing the same
mission in a different capacity, but
we're all there for the same mission.
Right.
So as far as like clearing the air
as far as like that standoffishness
or that like mysticism behind hot
shot crews and crews in general,
like how do you alleviate that?
I mean, I know there's a bit of
a big change in culture, but.
Also those old misconceptions about
hotshot crews that still exist, man.
And
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I, I think it is kind of
a, a mis misconception.
You know?
It's like I've always been under
the mentality, um, super humble.
It's like, whatever fire we're on, it's
like we're there to help the situation.
We're gonna work well with others.
You know, I think there might be,
there's few inches, few instances, you
know, where like people are like, oh,
I don't wanna work with that soup, you
know, cause he's a dick or whatever.
But, um, I think we've done a pretty
good job at, you know, being, um, kind
of the leaders on the fire line and,
you know, whether it be a type two
crew engines or whatever, like bringing
them them into the organization and
being open and communicating with them.
You know what I mean?
I know over the years people
are like, man, you're like the
nicest soup I've ever talked to.
I'm like, well, you know, I think it's
just the, the humble, being humble
about it, you know, it's like the
work that the crew does is impressive.
But I think we've, we've done a
good job about remaining humble,
I guess is what I'm trying to say.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
I mean,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
check your
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
ego and, you know, that's like,
like how many crews out there?
Want that type two crew to come
in and clean up behind them.
Nobody bullshit.
Like they have saws.
Take a leap, like help our guys out.
Like take that leap.
That also one, it helps our crew out.
It gets them that experience.
Hey, we're gonna burn.
We have a big burn up going on.
Hey, you know, engine crew that's
helping support, you got somebody that's
never ran a torch, let's throw 'em in.
Uh, how many times you say, you know,
actually say thank you to that camp crew.
That's well past couple years.
It hasn't been hot buckets,
but handing to your food.
Yeah.
Like that, that crew member
on my crew say thank you.
Say, Hey, how was your, whatever.
Like, like check that ego.
Yeah.
Like be, be humble.
Don't be some cocky prick
that nobody wants to work for.
Don't
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
be an asshole.
That's a pretty good general
rule, rule of thumb for, you know.
Yeah.
Life.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Yeah.
E exactly.
And just shake hands, you know,
when you're, you're bumping down
the line, bumping through another
crew, what, whatever type it
might be, or contract or whatever.
Like, don't be, don't be, don't be a dick.
Yeah.
You know, and, and just really trying
to teach that and, and practice that as
a suit, you know, and, and leadership
and even outside of the crew world.
Like, just, just check that ego.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
It's
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
funny too how that, how that'll like
follow people, you know what I mean?
Like, I, I can think of a few
throughout my career where just had
these reputations, like they've gone
through and pissed enough people
off that even if they do try to
leave, they can't get another job.
Just because there's this, you
know, it's a small community
and like that stuff super small.
That stuff matters.
And people know, you know, you can
build up a reputation pretty easy.
Catch
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
more flies with honey than
you do vinegar, right?
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's, uh, definitely those people out
there where if you're a ops chief and
you look at the incoming cruise, you're
just gonna cringe because you know that
you've been putting together this big
plan and you've been there for a week.
This guy's gonna show up on day one and
start pointing at ridges three miles
out, or he is gonna go, I think I can
go on the drain edge and g and go direct
on that with just no outside intel.
Um, and I, I know some of those people and
I used to have that mentality in my head
of like, you know, if these guys haven't
went in and gone direct on it, why not?
We will.
Yeah.
You know, and, and with no intel.
And so definitely getting to
the superintendent rank, it's a
big, giant piece of humble pie.
And for me it was almost a, a start over.
Like, it's like relearning the trade.
Yeah, absolutely.
It was, it was, dude, I can't be
this brash, you know, rough dude.
Like, I'm not a lead Sawyer
anymore, I'm a superintendent.
Like when I was coming up, we
didn't talk to other crews, even if
they were the other district crew.
And that had to go away real quick.
Um, because these are guys that
I'm gonna work with the rest of my
career, they're gonna come to my crew.
Like my soup didn't treat people like
that, but like in the crew member
ranks, we were too cool for everybody.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like, that was just the cruise I was on.
But as I came up, it had to trickle away.
And I think the last of the, I hate to
say gritty because I like that word.
Um, and I, I, I expect a certain
amount of grit, but I think the super
abrasive people that are impossible to
work with are phasing themselves out.
Yeah.
They kind of weed themselves out.
I, I hope so anyways, because it is
nice to go somewhere and, and meet
up with, you know, another crew and
not just another person, but another
crew that you truly trust and you've
built a relationship and you know
that they're gonna take that leap.
Or if you, if they do ask us to hold
a piece of line for, for 'em while
they continue a burn, I'm not, I'm not
gonna get three or four of their squad
leaders trickling back through to come
triple check my work, you know, or
something like that, because they know
we're back there doing our best too.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's a
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
culture change too.
I mean that, I mean, how collective
age in this room, I wanna say is what,
between late thirties to mid forties ish?
I'm not gonna say mid,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
mid thirties.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
39.
Copy that.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Damn, this is like paper.
See, it goes first.
There I, I'm 36, man.
I don't have a lot of time in the
game, but what I've seen over the
course of like the, like my time in
fire is this transition from like the
old school, like the tail end of the
old school, this transition phase.
And then now we're going
into the new school.
And like a lot of crews that I've
worked with in the past, they
were like that shut the fuck up
and dig kind of mentality that.
Don't talk to each other.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Yeah.
Old school is not an
excuse to be an asshole.
Like, that's not an interchangeable term.
You, you're not allowed to say,
oh, well I'm just old school.
It's like, no, that's
a fucking pop out dude.
Just swap it back.
Like, no, you're just an asshole.
Yeah.
Like if you're old school then, you
know, you, you drank with everybody
on the district at a, at a district
party three nights a week, and you
didn't hide out at the hotshot base.
You're just an asshole that comes in
and tells everybody that you know what
you're doing and nobody else does.
Yeah.
But I think so
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Go ahead.
I was gonna say, so, so yeah, I, I, I,
I def, I've definitely seen that shift
in my career and, and when I, the first
year that I took the soup job, I had,
you know, what I viewed as an old school
soup, uh, you know, former soup for
Black Mountain that retired and probab
and, and I've never worked for him.
Maybe some Black Mountain, you know,
crew members will, will disagree.
But, uh, the nicest guy, one of the
nicest hotshot soup soups that, you
know, that I've ever worked with is a,
And just fortunate to be like, oh, I'm
sitting at the same table as this guy.
But, you know, had that, you know,
maybe that old, old school mentality
of, you know, just work ethic or, or,
you know, tactics or sta whatever it
might be, but just super nice guy.
And it was just like,
that's, that's super cool.
It's not this, it's not this dick.
Yeah.
It's not this asshole that
nobody wants to be around.
Yeah,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I know, I know when I was, uh, when
I was coming up on the suns, there
was, there was still some of that,
that kind of old school mentality
that you were talking about.
You know, I, and I kind of like, looking
back, I feel like our, our lives got made
more miserable for, for no real reason.
Yeah.
It's like a miserable job and like,
I kind of felt like the overhead at
times were like going outta their
way to make our lives more miserable.
Um, you know, working super hard
and then getting told you're a
type two crew, basically, you know,
and kind of just demoralizing and
crushing you down all the time.
And one thing I did when I moved into the,
the soup world is I, I kind of reflected
back, you know, and like there was a lot
of good fire, um, tactic like tactically.
There was a lot I learned, you know,
there's a lot I learned about leadership
from my past soups and like, so when
I rolled into the Suns and even when I
came to Ruby, it's like the mentality
was, it's like the high standards,
the organization, the work ethic,
the physical fitness, it's like all
of that stuff can remain the same.
But we're just not gonna treat
people like shit all the time.
Yeah.
And we're gonna let them have
a voice, you know what I mean?
And it's like that has
been super successful.
And I think that's, that generational,
that shift you're talking about, you
know, like younger soups are coming
in and it's like they've got different
ideas, you know, different perspectives.
Different perspectives.
Still accomplishing the same thing,
maintaining the high standards, but
just treating people good and you know,
demonstrating like real leadership versus
just, you know, that militaristic style.
Shut up and dig.
I think we were just talking
about that in the room there.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
So, It was, it was even
better in the military.
I, I tried to tell people all the
time, we, we were a very far outpost.
I never thought I'd
heard that from a Marine.
Well, we were a very far outpost in
Iraq and they got US mail, um, they got
blown up all the time getting it to us,
but they got us mail, they got us food.
Um, we, we didn't always have to eat shit.
Um, and I definitely worked for.
A lot superintendents that did
care, but I, and they tried
to treat everybody right.
But I saw a lot of mistreatment of
just, you know, Hey, we're here for
the night and if you don't have an
R in your pack, go fuck yourself.
Yeah.
You know, bullshit.
And that was bullshit, dude.
Those are actual, that's
a quoted freaking word.
I'm not gonna say from who or what
crew, but, but that's a direct quote.
Yeah.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, that's the thing, man.
You gotta take care of your,
your, your people, right?
I mean, if you are a a, a prick,
no one's gonna work for you.
You're not gonna have the same motivation.
You're not gonna have the
same outcome of work output.
Right.
You're not gonna have
any of that camaraderie.
You're not gonna have any of that shit
that hotshot crews are traditionally known
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
for.
I don't know.
Some of, some of these
crews were able to do it.
Like they were, they were able to
have like these rough, you know,
like gnarly soups and they would,
wouldn't have a very high turnover.
Like, and I think the bros would just,
like, the boys would just be so tight.
Yeah.
Because they were getting treated a
certain way that like nobody would leave.
It was like, dude, you're
stuck here in the ship with me.
It's like a, a fear culture almost.
Yeah.
Like we're, we're going
to eat this shit together.
Yeah.
You know,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's like they're trying to like,
keep each other in the game, but
it's like we, that's another thing
too that's like a topic of concern.
It's not even con topic of concern.
It's just a topic of culture
that we have in fire.
And it doesn't matter if you're
on a hot shot crew or smoke
jumper, hell attack whatever.
We have this suffer culture that
we embrace and arguably you guys.
On the line are eating
it the most, I wanna say.
So
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
I, I still like that that grind
the sufferer fest now, you
know, it's a chanting dude.
It is.
You know, like I, so I mount
bike and I have, you know,
you, you gonna get an e-bike?
Well, no, I'm not gonna get any,
no, I'm gonna pedal my ass up
the hill because I like to grind.
I like that suck.
I like that physical.
Like, you know, when you get to
the top, you're just like, ah,
all right, now it's downhill.
Which is even tougher than
going uphill, you know?
And, and that's like, I equate that to,
you know, there's, there's the suck.
Like, we always joke about the suck,
like, but then there's just that
sucker fest of just like, hard days
work, carrying heavy stuff, you know,
having your line blown over to where
you gotta go find another ridge.
Like, but that's, that's,
that's a, that's a good grind.
But just working with somebody that's
just beat you down or, or fear-based
leadership is not, Fear-based leadership
isn't, I mean, you, if you lead by
fear, you, you, you're not gonna last.
Yeah.
You know, and, and, and trying to just
expel that from any type of, you know,
skillset you have, but, but that grind,
that suck, that getting after it, like,
that's, for me, that's a good feeling.
That's why I'll never own an
e-bike and the foreseeable
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
future.
So this episode is
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
sponsored, but now I'm just kidding.
There's the, there's the intended
things that make it the difference.
You know, like the hard days work is the
reward that you get when it does suck.
It's like you, you can look at
a solid accomplishment and all
the things that suck go away.
Yeah.
But I think the thing that like
the, not necessarily the sufferer
fest, but the mistreatment
that arises, it's intentional.
Um, and that part is hopefully what's.
What's gonna be gone?
Like the bullying shit blatant,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
like fucking
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
harassment and bullying or, or
just like the things to like
screw with people's lives.
Yeah, like the, the, you know, if
you have a soup that I had one that
just chased every single minute
of overtime that he could get.
And so we worked a bunch of sixth
then seventh day, and we would go
to project work on the sixth and
seventh days because he said that
we were getting paid overtime, so
we should work 1.5 times harder.
So we would just go eat shit on
our, what should be our days off.
And we wouldn't be on fires or anything,
we'd just have some severity money laying
around or, um, the people who will,
you know, like without good intention
would drag their feet on the road just
to like, screw it, the day is off.
So you didn't get three, you only got
two, or you only got, you know, one or,
um, those intentional things is what I
think is like the mistreatment factor.
The suck factor and the.
Um, the suffer factor, as you
said, that, that's embraceable.
Yeah.
That's what keeps people around.
For some reason
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it kind of makes me feel alive, man.
What do you talk
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
about All of us, the, that one time
when you're on that ridge without
a jacket, you know, the suck.
You never talk about really the good times
where No, you only talk about the suck.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Exactly.
That line held.
Yes.
The the times, I mean, the funny,
it's the, well, I guess, uh, it's
the times that you talk about is
like the, the suck fest, right?
You always like talk about that,
especially with inner crew, right?
Because you're all, you're all
there together for the most part.
And then it's always the funny
shit too, like the funny stories.
You remember that time that that
dude fucking kicked a rock down
the hill or something like that.
Some funny shit.
Right?
And I think that's what keeps the culture
alive and I think it's very like, It's
a very important part of our culture as
firefighters to keep that thing going.
Right.
It's like hotshot crews got their
traditions, they've got their training.
Same thing with engines, same
things with hella jack crew.
And that it all plays into the part of
the story that we're trying to tell.
Right.
But no one's really doing the job of
telling it besides between crews, like on
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
the, well, we're here right now.
There we go.
So, I mean, you, you actually
got, you know, a couple current
and a couple former, yeah.
In the same room, which I, I don't
know, 10 years ago if that would've
happened in front of a microphone.
No, wouldn't, there's
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
no way, man.
It's just like a, it's like having
the news crews show up to a fire.
What does everybody do?
Scattered Ghost Town,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
right?
Yep.
Not me, man.
That was on Telemundo.
Telemundo.
Nice.
Yeah, they interviewed a friend of
mine at, uh, the Thomas Fire, and they
said that his Spanish was actually
worse than his English and that they
would just subtitle over me instead.
So
see,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's funny shit like that, right?
Yeah.
That's, that's the stories that people
like remember forever across their lives.
If you've been through a hot shot crew
and like that's something that all that,
that crew is going to remember, right?
That's funny.
Shit.
But who else are we telling?
Are we telling our family that man?
Maybe not necessarily.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
I don't know, man.
Oh no, there's a lot though.
You don't tell your family.
Yeah, I will say that I spent my
entire career like not being very
open with my wife, um, you know, up
and to include like where we were.
I just, I didn't want her to know where
exactly we were because she had access to
all the shit, trying to figure out what we
were doing and that it actually did suck
really, and suck in like a safety aspect.
So, personal
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
question for you, did you not tell her?
Cause I'm guilty of the same thing, right?
I did not tell my significant other,
like my wife or anything, where I was,
where I was going, what fire I was
on, I would purposely not do that.
She'd figure it out because she
has access to SSU web or whatever,
you know, she looked that shit up.
It's public knowledge.
But I came into, the thing is, uh, I, I
came into the point where I was like, it's
not worth telling her just in case some
shit does happen or there's an incident.
I don't want her to be like calling every
fucking district office or everybody
just to see if I'm, you know, injured
or if like something happened or if
it was my crew or something like that.
So I think it was like kind
of a defense mechanism for me.
Why I wasn't saying the quiet shit
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
out loud.
It was, it was some of that, it was
also that I didn't want to only engage,
like I didn't want my wife necessarily
asking me questions about the fire.
Yeah.
Like when I did talk to her, I
didn't want to talk about the fire.
I wanted to talk about what was going
on at home or, or just anything.
Like, before we had kids, just what
she had been doing, she would ask me
about the fire and I just didn't really
want to talk about it and mm-hmm.
I'm more open now.
It's just fucking work.
You don't wanna talk about
work, you don't wanna drag
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
the shit home.
Yeah.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
And it's hard not to.
I, I've had to engage cuz now I have kids.
Um, but when I was coming up on the crew,
I didn't call home like hardly at all.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I was just trying to stay
tactically engaged at a high level.
Um, do my job the best.
I'd call her once, you know, before we
went to spike out or before we, I mean, we
might be coming back to camp every night.
I didn't call because I
had other things to do.
Yeah.
Um, and so I, I tried to stay
really focused on that, but.
I eventually had to get an iPhone that
way I could FaceTime the kids, you know?
Yeah.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
And it sucks, man.
You take a lot of time
away from home, man.
Hot shot in crew life.
It's, it's fucking hard
on the family, man.
It is.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I had a, an, an epiphany just now when,
when he was talking about his wife,
but a few weeks ago we were talking
about, um, getting on, you know,
getting on a team, being a division
on a team, and like, she was like,
what, what's a, what's a division?
And I'm like, you know, we've been
together long enough and then I
just had the epiphany that I, that
I'd never actually talk about work.
So that's a good thing though.
I just kind of, you
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
know, to some degree
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
is probably a good thing.
Some of these guys, you'll hear 'em on the
phone and they're giving like a full like
almost operational briefing to their wife.
Like, oh yeah, we're on division.
Like, I know one in particular, he is a
unfocused squad leader, unfortunately,
but, um, he, he gives his wife like a
full operational debrief of the day.
I don't know if maybe that
helps him debrief, but Yeah.
Um, she's gotta be at least fairly dialed.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
I know one thing I've always done,
and I still, I mean, I still.
The last few seasons I've, I've
kind of operated the same way.
It's like I would just touch base with
home periodically just cuz I felt, you
know, I'd seen people like, you know,
throughout the years like almost break
just because you know, they're talking to
their significant other every night and
they're like missing this stuff at home.
And I found just for me, just touching
base periodically, it's like, I don't know
if it was the right answer or not, but it
kind of like helped me get through the,
through the role, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Stay focused on what the crew was
doing and it's like not cuz the thing
is, it's like you can't do anything if
there's stuff going on at home, it's
like, yeah, you could leave the fire if
there's something really bad's going on.
Yeah.
But it was like you can't
really, those little things, it's
like you can't really change.
Yeah.
So it's
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
like you go out to the powers out,
go check the breaker box, we'll
open the fucking door and see if
the breakers have tricked, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well 90, it's just
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
simple shit.
99% of the stuff that happens.
I don't know if the percentage is that
high necessarily, but there's a lot of
stuff that I just place absolute trust in
my wife and if I don't talk to her for a
week, she's already got it figured out.
Yeah.
There's like very few things.
That are like, Hey, we need to talk about
this thing right now and figure it out.
Like if the breaker box does go
out, like she'll figure that out.
Luckily, she can call my dad or
a friend or whatever, you know.
I don't know how she pays these guys.
I'm kidding.
But, uh, you know, like.
Uh, like I put the same trust in my wife
as I put in an assistant on the crew
because she is my absolute counterpart.
And when I come home, she's my
superintendent and I'm her captain.
You know, like yeah.
Like I, I try to come home, like,
how, how do I fit into your plan?
How do I help you?
What do you need for me?
Like, don't change your schedule.
Just, just let me, I'll hold
the line for you while you burn.
Yeah.
You know, you go ahead, bump
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
ahead.
Start dragging torch and
I'll hold and improve.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Yeah.
The guys that call home every
day, I mean, if you are one of
those guys, it's no big deal.
Um, but it's like, it's
whatever works for you, man.
It's, it's like getting shot with
a BB gun every day because the
same problem, like that little.
The breaker box, box thing, you're gonna
talk about it for the next three or four
days, even though the problem got solved.
Yeah.
You know, like, oh well when that
happened, it was such a pain in my
ass and me, I'm like, I'd rather take
one to the head than too to the chest,
you know, just gimme the bad news
once every seven days and I'm good.
Yeah, just
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
get it over with.
Rip the bandaid off around.
Well that's a cool thing though about,
uh, I guess some changes and to speaking
of the new school, I guess, and there's
some, probably some pol policy changes
and just the way we do operations as
far as crews, I mean, I don't know
about you guys, but what do you think
about the new, like three days off?
I know we're not really all on
board with that, but I know that
there is a lot more flexibility
to like, pick up somebody else.
Pick up a fill, right.
And you know, if you're squatted or
somebody on the crew needing to go
to a wedding or like a birthday or
a family reunion or some shit like
that, there's a lot more flexibility
built into the system now to where
we're aware of this shit and we have
the opportunities to send people off.
It's not like the old school where it's
just like, Hey, you're expected to be
here for fucking eight months every day.
What?
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
So what's it gonna hurt?
Yeah.
Does it matter in the big picture if
a crew takes three or four days off?
If, if our, if my operation rests
solely on one crew being here,
something's wrong, then, then
we failed, which we have failed.
Um, but, but why not?
You know?
Yeah.
The first couple years as a soup screw
that actually, you know, it, it took
maybe, maybe the second year as a soup.
I was like, we're gonna
take a week off in July.
And I was fought tooth
and nail by leadership.
No shit, tooth and nail.
You can't, I was like, why not?
We were vacation, retire, and, and
in 2008 as a squatty, I started
to take two weeks off in August
to go backpack in with my dad.
It sucked like losing out on the overtime.
But that, that's awesome.
So, so why wouldn't we continue and,
and, and, and even provide more.
Like let, let the soup we trust
a superintendent to, to lead 22
humans with a half a million dollars
worth of assets and some of the
gnarly shit out there with some
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
of the highest trained
professionals in the industry.
But
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
we don't trust their.
Their perception of like, Hey,
I need, I need four days off.
Yeah.
For, for the crew, you know?
And, and that's where it's
just like, you know, why not?
You want to take a week off paid?
Let's do it.
Let's figure it out.
Well, here's
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
a question for you.
Did you have like an
overwhelming sense of guilt?
Because as a superintendent, your job
is to take care of your folks, right?
If they're that GS three seasonal
and they're struggling during the
winter, they got an opportunity to
make all the fucking money that they
need to make in that short season.
Right?
Did you guys have some guilt that you
would carry with you if, uh, you would
take off and maybe put them down?
Or did you have guilt
like saying the what if?
So like, does my captain got this?
Does this person have this?
Is this person gonna be okay?
Do you carry that shit with you?
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
I know I did.
So the, the, the year that we took,
uh, I tried to get a week off in July.
It was, you know, we, we, we were, we
were busy and, and, and with, with Lone
Peak, uh, Early on, like we, we put a
lot of of focus on, on the crew members.
I want to get these crew members as
much experience as they can, as much
over time, as much pay as they can
get, because we would only have 'em
for two years, maybe three years.
Yeah.
And then I'd push 'em out
to the other crews or, or
whatever it might be, you know?
And so, so had, I'd stand
down for a week in July.
You, you heard about it, but, but
what I tried to do is shift my focus.
Okay.
Well what about the leadership
that's been here for 5, 7, 8 years?
I'm breaking 'em off.
Yeah.
When we're doing 1400 hours of overtime in
a season, you know that crew member after
two years, they're bound, they're done.
Yeah.
They're 10 leadership's
still there, so, so yeah.
To hear, to hear that second year crew
member bitching that we're taking a
week off in July, but then to hear about
somebody that won, take Yellowstone.
Yeah.
Like, fuck yeah.
With their family.
That's cool.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
Yeah, I know it.
You know, it wasn't mandated within,
uh, with the doi but last season on
Ruby, every r and r, we took three days.
Um, and for me personally, it's like
I was able to get out and do things
with my family, just set extra day
that I would never do on two day with
two day r and Rs, you know, trip to
Salt Lake, trip up into the rubies,
you know, doing like, doing like real
summertime things that like when you
have two days off, you can't really do.
And you know, I some, I know some
folks, like within the blm, it's like
they're making that decision based on,
you know, the assignment or whatever.
And like, from my perspective, it
didn't matter what we did on the fire.
It's like we were gone for 16, 17 days.
It's like, we're gonna take three days
off and like give people a chance to
like, at least somewhat a chance to have
a little bit of a life in the summertime.
You know what I mean?
And I, I, I think it was super.
Super successful.
And it, you know, if I was still
running Ruby, it's like we'd be doing
three days again this summer too.
Yeah.
Just cuz I, I think it, you know, it
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
made a big difference.
Oh yeah.
And you get the time to do shit.
Right.
Even if something comes up, like,
say you gotta go, I don't know,
fucking, you're buying a house
and you go see sign title, right.
That takes a long ass time.
It takes multiple days sometimes.
So you have the opportunity to do that
shit during the summer, like peak season.
That's pretty cool,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
man.
The, the direction that we got from our
leadership, when we asked the question at
the hand crew committee, you know, like,
are they gonna mandate the three days?
They said they don't wanna mandate it.
And um, at first I thought,
okay, well, you know, why not?
And then the reasoning behind it was we
want to give you guys the superintendents,
the tactical and operational flexibility
to, if there's a good reason to do a two
day turnaround, um, that makes sense for
you and your crew, by all means do it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, and the only one
that I could really think, and from
my perspective, and it would be a
selfish, like overtime based decision.
Which I hate overtime based
decisions, but it would be,
that's a good motivator though.
You know, it would be, it is.
I, I really don't like 'em.
There's like, there's so many
bad overtime based decisions,
but we're all guilty of it.
It would, it would be to get back on,
like if, if you had every crew in the
G coming back on, on the 19th and you
had the opportunity to come back on
the 18th and get a guaranteed like late
season roll or a very early season.
Um, but there, with that same thought
process, is the GAC still gonna
clear out regardless, and can I, or
should I take that third day off?
But what, what the intent from the
leadership was, we want you guys to
think tactically, we want you to engage
in relationships with your folks and
really not just like Chase was saying,
like don't base it on last assignment.
Like, whose perception of,
does that deserve a third day?
Like who, who does that really fall on?
And then they said, you, we also
want to give you the flexibility
to take more days if you want.
So if we locked you into three,
then four would be an ask.
Yeah.
But if you need to take four,
basically tell us and tell the G
that you would like to take four.
Um, one of the things we did last
year is we would just ask to extend a
couple days and run it into a weekend.
So we'd end up working 15 or 16,
but we'd follow up with five.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
See, that's bitching right there.
It's empowering like that, that
change has empowered crews to
make the right decisions for
themselves and the crew, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's that operational independence.
It's not really widely adopted
across the nation, right?
That's pretty
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
bitching.
Well, and the guys, I mean, at first
there's a little bit of chap in their
ass, you know, cuz they all plan on this
14 thing, which I don't know why most
of 'em, they're kind of new anyways.
So they just have that
14 number in their head.
When you tell 'em you're gonna work
16 or 17, they, they all kind of go,
oh, but when you followed up with,
hey, we're gonna have five off.
Then it's like, oh, I, now I see the
purpose and how it, you know, Hey,
we're gonna run these three days off
into our, our weekend and get five.
Yeah.
They haven't learned
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
hotshot
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
math yet.
No, that's a, that sixteens
in h that takes a long time.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
And I, you know, and I think, uh, you
know, since, since I've departed, you
know, crew live to, to where we are
today, like I have seen that shift,
you know, as, as, as have these
guys on, on just that, that support
for, for taking the time you need.
And, and even, you know, my, I I,
when I first started on, on, on the
hotshot crew was like, well, unless
your time's scheduled off before the
first day, you're not taking it off
unless it's like an absolute emergency.
Yeah.
And, and I remember, uh, 2010,
very good friend of mine proposed.
And like June and the crew had
already been on and they were
planning to get married in October
and the crew was still gonna be on.
So I was shit outta luck.
Like it was like, yeah,
it not gonna happen.
So I remember sitting on a stole
snowstorm outta Beaver, Utah on like
the Twitchel fire, like the fifth roll.
Super pissed off.
Like, this is, this is dumb.
And, and so, you know, trying to shift
that, that culture and that, that thought
process of you want to take time off cool.
Just don't come to me Friday and
say you need, yeah, gimme a heads
stop a week off starting tomorrow.
Like, let's, let's figure it out.
Because yeah, it sucks if you're,
if you're gone from the crew, but.
But it's okay.
Like we're only gonna
produce what we can produce.
Doesn't matter if we have 18 or 23 or
whatever it says on the side of your rig.
Like, you're gonna get done
whatever you can get done.
And, and like, I remember that like
a couple years of me taking, taking
time off in August and finally, I
remember like one year I was able
to get like a squatty and a, and a
lead to take some time off in August.
And it was like, yes.
But it, it was like,
it was like a success.
It was a success.
Yeah.
And, and, and to just show that it's okay.
Like it we'll be okay.
Like sure, there's the guilt, there's
the fuck, you know, and, and just
like, yeah, you're out Back factor.
The fo factor.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And you know, you're thinking of the
crew and what you're missing out on,
and then when you come back, there's all
these stories and you're just like, I
have no idea what you're talking about.
I wasn't here.
You know, but just trying to shift that,
that mindset and that culture, you know,
like I, I felt good with my program.
We were starting to turn that tide.
And, and I, I do think, you know, as
a whole, I'm sure there's districts
or, you know, four whatever crews
that, that aren't shifting that
way or don't fully believe in that.
But I think as a whole it's,
it's, it's being normalized.
Yeah.
You know, and that conversation is
better of like, yeah, we're gonna take
four days, maybe five days if needed.
Yeah.
Well, it's
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
the take the whole conversation
around, like taking care of
yourself and taking care of others.
I think that's changed dramatically over
the last like 10 years, I wanna say.
I mean, it's acceptable.
Like, Hey, hey man, I'm
having a hard time at home.
Do you mind if I like.
Go handle
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
some shit.
Yeah.
Kick rocks.
Let me know.
Well, maybe not this
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
asshole
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
man.
Let me know when, lemme me know
when you want to come back.
Yeah.
I mean that's the answer that if
somebody says that, you know, obviously
there's a deeper conversation.
Like, is there anything
I can do to help you?
Blah, blah, blah blah.
Absolute support from the, the
minute somebody asks like that Yeah.
No questions asked.
Yeah.
Like, let me know when
you want to come back.
Yeah.
Send it.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
If you like have a death in the
family or something like that.
And again, no question to ask go confus
like now why do you, why are you still
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
here?
Right.
We'll, we'll figure it
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
out later.
Yeah.
And I think it's cool because it's
even, even like the topical shit
that just like grinds at us, right?
We all have those like little, it's like
death by a thousand cuts conversations.
Right?
The, it's, it's, it's socially and
culturally acceptable now to like go to
your squatty or go to your fucking saw
partner or go to your soup and be like,
Hey man, can I get some shit off my chest?
And a lot of times people
are receptive to it.
So it's definitely changed and I think
that's one of those misconceptions about
hotshot cruise cuz you guys are the
most dialed, the most highly trained.
Total operational independence
and your ground truthing,
you know, ahead of the fire.
You're basically giving like the ops team
what the plan is gonna be for tomorrow
and like long-term strategy on fires.
This is some high level shit
that you guys do, right?
But to still have the kindness and
compassion for your crew to have them,
you know, come to you with an open door.
That's a major change that I've seen.
If something's going on.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
We used to call it hotshot psychology,
no offense to the psychologist out there.
And sometimes it was
very, very poor advice.
Um, but yeah, just trying to,
trying to, you know, what, what
we're calling peer support now.
And you know, just before we sat down
in here, you know, just this tremendous
conversation around peer support
and, you know, and like I said, we,
we had no idea what we were doing.
It's just like, oh, you
want to talk about shit?
Let's talk about some stuff.
And no, you probably shouldn't
kick puppies afterwards.
But, um, you know, just, just really
trying to, trying to be open to
that and, and recognizing that.
I don't, I don't know an answer.
Like I, I don't know, but let's,
let's talk, let's, let's just
talk about how shitty it is.
Okay.
We need to find somebody
cuz you are fucked up.
You know, and, and, and just
being there to support them.
And, and I've seen that a shift
in my career from when I first
started to, to where we are now.
And feel pretty fortunate to kind of
be in the middle of that as it was
really trying to take shape of that.
You know, just being, being there
for, for whoever you're working with.
Mm-hmm.
But it's very tough to do that too.
Very,
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
oh yeah.
You gotta have some very tough
extreme, I mean, being a hot shot,
I mean, you're supposed to be the
hitters of the, of the fire, right?
You're supposed to be the, the
hardcore out in the lead, right?
And to have that, that ego that comes
along with that of the pro leagues, it's
really hard to be vulnerable to people.
I think that's one of those things that's
kind of being talked about as well.
So,
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
so I got a, I got a question last week.
I was in Boise taking a class and somebody
turned to me and he is like, Hey, I got
some, some folks that have been asking
me questions and it's like, how do you.
Create in an open environment
on a hotshot crew.
And um, my answer to him, it,
you gotta like actually live it.
You know what I mean?
I don't know how many bosses I've
had that are like, Hey, open door
policy, but their door's always closed.
There are soups like, Hey, you
could talk to me about anything.
But then you don't hear like, you
interact with him like two or three
times throughout the entire summer.
You know what I mean?
And I think, uh, to make it actually
happen, it's like you gotta preach it,
you know, early on, you know, day one
it's like, hey, you know, if you guys,
something comes up, it's like we want
an open environment, but then throughout
the season, like the AAR is the end
of the day debriefs, like initiating
discussions and just getting that
environment to a point where, you know,
the first second year firefighters are
actually comfortable, uh, bringing up
issues they had or you know what I mean?
Even if they want to come to me
or Justin one-on-one and, you
know, create that environment.
It's not just saying it, I guess
it's the difference between saying
there's an open door policy and
actually creating environment
where there is an open door policy.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah, it's like the stupid
question phenomenon, right?
Everybody's circled up and
there's always that rookie that.
Might or may or may not have a
stupid question, but I guarantee
you if that person asks the stupid
question, four or five other people
in that circle of people would be
like, oh fuck, I'm so glad he fucking
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
asked that question.
I'm glad he's gonna get
all the shit talking.
Not me.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Well, and how many times is uh, you know,
the leader, the superintendent asking
stupid questions just because they're
like out of touch, you know, like Yeah.
A little disappointed.
Yeah.
Like, and it's just something
that you innocently ask cuz
you want the truth answer.
Yeah.
And you know, the crew looks back, you're
like, oh, that was my stupid question.
Like, I'm out of touch
with this specific thing.
Or I wasn't engaged, I was over here
and I didn't know and I'm just asking,
you know, Hey, how's your guys' day?
I like the soup.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Doesn't always know.
Absolutely not.
You hear about shit like months.
You're like, God, you guys really serious.
So.
So one thing I wanted to add on with
Chase, you know, one thing that I've tried
to shift my focus is open door policies.
We've all heard 'em, right?
Cool.
Get, have an empty seat policy.
Get outta your office, get outta your
seat, get away from your computer.
Because you know, if you are, if you
are a, a soup, a squatty, a battalion
chief, and, and, and what, whatever
level of leadership, if you're clickety
clacking, because you're really
important and you've got all this
shit to do, you got your doors open.
But if you, if you're not paying
attention, dudes, gals, whatever, they
may not always be willing to come and
walk in and shut the door and sit down.
But get outta your seat.
Have an empty seat policy, get out and,
and be present with, with those that you
lead, whether, whatever level you're at.
And then to touch on, it's, it's, it's
very e easy to preach it, but I've
found it's very hard to practice it.
Mm-hmm.
As an individual, like, you know,
fully support the conversations that
are taking place outside right now.
The, the initiatives, the programs,
the posters, the, the clinicians
fully believe in it, but to
practice it, It's fucking hard.
Oh yeah, fucking hard.
I think most of
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
the hotshot offices are set up tactically.
Um, I know the last girl I was
on, there was two captains right
outside of the superintendent store.
And if you walked in and shut
the superintendent door, you were
gonna get promptly met by two
captains as soon as you came out.
And that was, you know, basically just to
k try to keep the chain of command tight.
I think it was done with good
intentions, poor execution.
Um, and I, I was not the
approachable captain at the
time, like total fatal flaw.
I was trying to be, I was definitely
preaching that, you know, you
can bring me your problems in.
I had a few, uh, guys within my
module that trusted me at that
level, but not everybody did.
Yeah.
Um, we gotta
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
develop those relationships too.
I mean, the new guy or girl
coming into the crew, they're.
They're stone cold,
they're not gonna talk to
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
anybody cuz they're probably
fucking afraid, quite frankly.
Well, and the crew know, the crew
members know if they see the door
shut to the office, something's up.
They're gonna, shit's going.
They're gonna ask that person.
Yeah.
If the captains or the assistants see
the door shut to the soup's office,
they're gonna know something's up.
If, if a squat he's behind the building
with a person having a conversation,
they're gonna know some shit's going down.
Yeah.
So it's, it's not always just the
stigma from the leadership coming down.
Like sometimes the crew members
are hanging onto this, you know,
like, what are you doing in there?
Talking to 'em thing or like what
went down in there and they're, I
think it's mostly self-preservation.
They're wondering if like, they're talking
about something from five months ago that
they did when they stopped over in Elco.
But, um, I think the big thing is like
trying to just teach the guys that
it's okay to talk to each other and
when it's appropriate to tell your bro.
Like, Hey man, like you
should probably send this up.
Like, Like, I think that, and there's
certain people within the crew that
they said should suggest, like, this
is probably a, a problem for Brewington
because he's been married, or this is
probably a problem for Chase because
he's, he's had like a similar experience
and just kind of working that chain
of command and navigating it can help
those crew members pick and choose the
right person, but the whole overhead
has to be bought into the program of,
you know, helping each other and Yeah.
A peer support.
Well, it's like that
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
accountability thing, right?
You gotta hold yourself accountable too.
I mean, that's one of those things,
dude, you can, you can hold somebody
accountable all day, but are you, at
the end of the day, are you holding
yourself accountable for all of these
programs that we're trying to implement?
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Right.
Yeah.
And it's, it's, uh, I think it's easier
for me and the superintendent level
to buy into the, the new programs.
It's expected.
It's, I see the value
in it from a high level.
I have to bring that home and
work it from the top down.
I, I have to work on the assistance
to get them to buy in and, and the
squad leaders to get them to buy in
and get them to buy at that same level.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Especially when you have a
bunch of hard asses in the room.
You know, these are, like I said,
the pipe hitters of the, of the fire
community, you know, it's, uh, it's hard
to get that culture changed, especially
rapidly, you know, get stuck in your ways.
But then again, it's, I, I don't
know if there's like the, like you
say, we, we wanna get rid of that
ego thing, but there's still gonna
be some kind of element of that.
It's like, who's the best hot Jack crew?
And if your answer usually isn't, if
your answer isn't the one you're, you're
on, then we probably have a problem.
Right?
So, I don't know, man.
It's uh, a lot of changes on the horizon,
but, uh, I think that overall, I think
that things are getting pretty dialed in.
I think there's a big, big shift in
culture, big shift in operations.
There's for the better
some for the worst man.
And there is, uh, fair disclaimer.
There is a time and place for like
all the old school shit there is, but.
Not all the time, right?
Yeah.
So I know you guys gotta get outta
here for lunch here pretty soon.
But like, one little last topic
of, uh, discussion that I wanted to
hit you guys with is, uh, why would
you want to go into hot Shotting?
Like, what is the purpose?
Obviously the training's there,
all that stuff, but like, what
makes it worthwhile for you guys?
Like how would
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
you sell your programs?
I can go first because I'm different
and then I'll let the hotshots follow.
There we go.
So I, I run a veteran crew and the
BLM started the veteran cruise for
a very specific purpose, and it
was to assist the hotshot cruise.
Um, like a dirty, dark
secret I would've told
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
me about.
He doesn't want to go type one status.
It's like, I, I don't,
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
I'm not, you're not going to
either negative copy that.
I have no plans on putting my finger
in the mix or taking a slice of
the pie that's already too thin.
Um, there's already enough
bad hotshot crews out there.
Um, I don't wanna engage.
In that pool.
Um, if anything, we should be shrinking
the number, um, rather than gaining 'em.
I think there is value
in type two IA programs.
I think it's too diluted the flat.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
I do not want delusion,
so I'm not gonna join.
Um, but the blm, um, specifically
implemented these crews to, to gain
the vets off the top of the list.
So the list used to, or that
used to go during hiring,
we need to clear these vets.
And it was any way you could, you'd
call their number and hang up on
'em and say, oh, he didn't answer.
Or there were some really dirty
hiring practices that were going on.
And some really smart people at BLM
said, well, what if we just start these
crews and we take these guys with no
experience, but they have military
experience and we capture their,
um, experiences from the military.
We give 'em a place to come and
transition to, and we hope that they
stay and they, you know, go out like.
To other hotshot crews.
That's, that's my main goal is like,
I want to recruit good dudes, get 'em
in, get 'em some experience, and I want
'em to go to, to Ruby and Silver State.
And you had that common background too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, um, you know, for us, we, we, we
specifically target the Veteran Cruise.
Um, I was a veteran and when
I transitioned out, it was
a really bad economy, 2009.
Mm-hmm.
And I, the job that I had
lined up didn't work out.
And so I came to the
Hotshots as a last resort.
Uh, my brother was a hotshot at the
time at Del Rosa, and so I ended up on
Mill Creek because I couldn't be there.
And I just found home, it was like,
it was the most solid transition
and I was respected for my military
service within that crew, and
I had to catch up really quick.
I like the challenge.
Um, and I, that's the environment
that the veteran crews provide
is, it's a good transition point.
It's familiar language.
It's a little bit looser.
You can grow your hair out and grow a
beard, which the, the guys just love.
For some reason.
That's like a, such a selling point, man.
Like you could look like me.
It's stark comparison from
the, uh, military, right?
Yeah.
And the looser chain of command,
but similar structure and all that.
They, they really, really like it.
And then, you know,
just the overall intent.
Get these guys in, get 'em a couple years.
Like we try to go through a
rapid firefighter one development
because these guys have led men.
They've, they've engaged
tactically at a high level.
Most of 'em are NCOs that have a couple
years of solid leadership, day-to-day
running younger people than them.
We just have to teach 'em the fire aspect
of it and we can do that rather rapidly.
Yeah.
Like to be a functioning
entry level firefighter.
Like the firefighter one type
shouldn't take, like when I was
coming up, there was dudes like two,
three years to get their task books.
Finalized and we're not pushing
people through that don't rate.
But at the same time, the
expecta, we give people their
credit for their prior service.
And so I think the, the BLM vet crews
have a special place in my heart for sure.
I mean, I moved four hours away from
home to, uh, work on a veteran crew.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I've worked with you
guys in the past, man.
And you guys, you guys are awesome.
Yeah.
You guys
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
got a dial crew.
Eric Ellison did a hell of a job, uh,
bringing the crew along for a long time.
Um, but that's how I
would sell our crew, man.
It's, it is, it's crew cohesion.
It, the vet crews are a very good
place for transitioning veterans.
It's familiar, but you can grow
your beard, grow your hair looser.
You don't gotta call
anybody by your, their rank.
Um, but familiar territory.
Yeah.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Personal question for you, man.
Did you find a lot of similarities
between fire, like operationally
and also like hierarchy wise?
I mean, you kind of confirmed it there.
I mean, the, I I hate drawing the
comparison between the military and
fire because there is no comparison.
When you're in fire, you're not
getting blown up and shot at.
Right.
Yeah.
Obviously there's that stark
comparison right there.
But as far as everything
else though, is it
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
pretty similar?
I don't know.
I mean, I, I came up in Forest Service
region five on the San Bernardino.
If you go back and look at fatalities
in the la the last, you know, handful
of years started 2006 and move up.
Like we were hit really hard down there.
Mm-hmm.
So our dudes were getting dinged by
trees and dying in vehicle accidents
and, you know, just bad shit.
So for me internally, I mean that,
that part definitely is there.
But the military runs on a.
Like they have the exact same thing.
They have regimental command teams that
go to combat zones and they run that
entire area of operations as a team.
So similar to a gag, like not even
that similar to a type one team.
Okay.
So like they were, to put it in hotshot
terms, they were sending type one
teams to Iraq and Afghanistan, who
were, who would go run operations.
They would bring all their logistics
functions, their air ops, their, all
the same people are there doing the
same functions as they would be on a
fire, but they're doing it in combat.
And then they would cycle out, but the
units that were there would stay there.
Hmm.
So I don't know who learned it for sure.
Like who, if the military learned it
from, I know the military learned some
logistics stuff for sure from fire.
Um, but like, instead of having, you got
the, instead of having like the finance,
logistics, operations and planning.
They're called the S shops and
they do the exact same functions.
Hmm.
So when I got here and they're explaining
things to me, it's like, oh, okay, well
this, you know, I'm taking, what is it?
Is 700 or i 200 or one of those
where they're talking about
in incident command teams?
I could definitely draw the
parallels of the two very quickly.
The camaraderie and the fast
developing relationships, um, and
teams that you're able to build
is exactly like the military.
Um, I would say the, the big difference
for me was the level of engagement.
Because you're living at the barracks,
you're getting paid salary, which.
It could be a slippery slip
with this portal to whatever
their standby on this stuff.
Very, very slippery.
It's somewhere we shouldn't even go
right now, but No, it's gonna get
talked about, man, in the mil in the
military, I was living in the barracks.
I was getting paid 24 hours a day,
so this ass belonged to somebody.
Yeah.
Like this guy could legally come
in the door at two o'clock in the
morning and kick my door down and be
like, we're doing training right now.
Yeah.
Or like, do you literally almost have
a serial number on your ass to your
property or like just, you know, knock
on the door at eight o'clock at night.
And I'm like, Hey, I'm
trying to get this done.
Negative.
We're training.
Right.
And it, some of it was good and some
of it was unnecessary, but yeah.
Very, very good parallels.
Um.
I think the bullshit factor, it was
so much less than the hot shots.
Like just the getting fucked
with factor was so low.
I was like, yeah, this is awesome.
Like nobody's trying to ruin my life.
No one's trying to smoke you or anything.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not like standing
in front of the armory with a clean
gun for six hours because somebody
else's gun isn't clean enough.
You know?
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
What about you guys?
How did you sell your
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
program?
I'm gonna let Justin answer this
cuz I'm a washed up hotshot now, so
I'll, I'm gonna let him answer it.
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
I manage to sell our program.
It's like, at least for Ruby,
it's a lot of young people.
Um, traditionally on most hotshot crews,
they come from all over the country.
Um, the com camaraderie with the guys of
bringing, like, if you're in the barracks,
like they're talking about, at least
for Ruby, no one's really from Elko.
So they're literally living.
Sleeping with each other all the
time, doing stuff, uh, in their
off time at the barracks, learning
new recipes and stuff like that.
And then we start rolling.
Um, you know, our program,
we, we try to hold a high
expectation for physical fitness.
Um, we compete in the B L M Fitness
Challenge traditionally, you know,
we're at least in the top five, I hope.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Um, side note of the
BLM fitness challenge.
What the fuck is up with the plank shit?
Is that real?
Yeah.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
No more sit ups.
Some serious.
Some people, some people
like it, some people hate it.
Like we talked about out the hand
Crew committee extensively, and
it's totally biased based on.
What your strength is.
Like I could do a zillion setups.
It's of absolutely no value.
Like I could just keep going and
going, but you get this big old
six foot five body in a plank.
Um, my elbows start shaking pretty quick.
My abs aren't as strong
as I was hoping they were.
And you know, it's like building
a big bridge across the long gap.
It's gotta be super strong.
And I think the
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
problem with that now is like the
planks, like trying to correlate
the scores, like the old scores from
when you did sit ups to the planks.
Like I, I feel like they're
not jiving right now.
You know what I mean?
Somebody that might get like a.
A lower score on the sit-ups, you know,
might get a perfect score on the planks.
Absolutely.
I think like trying to
correlate that scoring system.
Hopefully within the next few
years it'll get hashed out, but I
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
just don't like fucking with tradition.
Well, and I
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
can't blame, I can't blame it on the
people who are working on it because
they're doing it with the greatest of
intentions, but the military's been
trying to figure this one out forever
and all the branches have different
aspects of how they go about it.
And now the bl m's, like let's
start fresh from nothing.
Um, my, my
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
recommendation don't do your
physical training in the off
season to pass the fitness test.
You will fail through the
summer and burn yourself out.
Man.
I don't care if you can do 20 pull-ups
cuz pull-ups don't put out fires.
Mm-hmm.
You gotta train for the season and,
and just the riggs and the, and
the grind and the being beat down.
Like, I've had dudes and, and even
gals that have crushed the fitness
test, but they get broke off on a hike.
Right.
I'd rather crush the hike
than get get broke off.
Yeah.
I mean,
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
we're doing, we're doing call-ins
we're, we start May 8th for Ruby.
And our ultimate goal is like, yeah,
we do have the fitness challenge.
We do wanna compete against it.
Our, our intent is that you show
up ready, healthy, a, that's
what they're calling in for.
And two, you're wearing your boots.
They're tied and they're tied and uh,
you're hiking cuz that's how, you know,
we get to work and Yeah, that's what
we, you take your Subarus is we need
healthy hot shots and we need you, you
know, physically fit, but most of all
ready to hike and to, to hike everything.
If it's a QB jerry chainsaw, um,
you know, we want everyone to be
equally the same and hopefully
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
everyone shows up ready to go, wanted
to have a good attitude about it,
you know, like, and, and the big
thing that we're having to at least
down where I'm at is tell people,
dude, like, just come in healthy.
Like don't, don't break yourself
trying to train for the season and.
Once you get there, then just you can
come in, in fifth gear, but once you
get there, just drop it to fourth and
just maintain the rest of the season.
Please.
Like, yeah.
Don't bog at the
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
first week of hell week.
You know?
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
Yeah.
I mean, everyone can say it right now.
You, uh, if you, if you haven't been on
a crew like you think, you know, you're
ready and we all have our stories,
you know, it's, I made that mistake.
If you think you're ready.
I came to the crew when I was 19
and, you know, I thought I was
unbeatable, played, you know, high
school football and all this stuff,
and absolutely got my ass waxed.
Oh yeah.
Like, and the, the PTs, the
hikes that we did, you know,
they're, they, they are hard.
Um, but I also, and Chase
couldn't attest to this.
I never wanted to feel like that again.
So I made sure that I was ready for the
next season and then to, to sustain it.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Um, yeah.
So no, I walked into Silver State as
a, uh, a 20 year old full of himself.
Fucking cocky little shit, right?
And I thought I was ready for this, uh,
this, this physical challenge component,
the physical component of being a hotshot.
And I fucking washed, I got my ass
beat, like a wad of cookie dough.
And I'm not afraid to, to admit
it, because it was one of the most
valuable lessons I ever learned.
Did I get back onto a
hotshot crew later in life?
Yeah, I, yeah, absolutely.
Did I recovered?
Did I get a very, very
hard lesson in humility?
Abso fucking lutely, man.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
It's no joke that that first
hike, you can't escape it,
especially if you've never done it.
Like when I was at Dr, the guys used
to come in, in the off season and they
would, they would hike it, da, they would
hike the big hikes daily because they
were just so nervous of that first hk.
And.
I would always tell 'em, man, you can
hike that hill by yourself or with
two buddies that are also rookies.
You can hike it a thousand times, but
until you get put in the pack and the guys
in the, the big boys in the front with the
big saws are in front of you and you're
staring at the back of a domar and like,
you're wondering why you're breathing
so bad and the other dudes aren't
like, and the nerves all hit you and
you're wondering why you're gonna puke.
Like, I've hiked this
hell a thousand times.
Like that first hike in the
pack is is that's the true test.
Like when shit gets real.
That's the gut check.
Yeah.
I mean it and it
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
should be, right?
Yeah.
At least every crew operates differently.
We all do the same job, but
everyone operates differently.
Yeah.
On Ruby, doesn't matter if you're a Sawyer
for 10 years, you fall out, you're done.
You know, the dude grabs that,
that that's, it's theirs.
I mean, yeah, everyone has bad days
and you know, and not saying whatever.
Everyone has excuses, but, and.
We operate in a high level capacity,
and that's just the, the way
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
it is with us.
Oh yeah.
I, I love the first hike
fir first day of critical.
We tried to be hiking within the first
hour because I'd carry a chainsaw
and I could just talk so much smack
because, uh, everybody behind me is
heck of a lot stronger than I was.
But, but I knew where we were going.
I, I was, it was game on and they're,
they're just mentally freaking
out and, and so just trying to get
that first hike out of the way and
then get, get them to realize like,
okay, whew, you know, I, I've got
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
this.
I'm strong.
Did you do the, like,
we're going till I'm tired.
Hike.
Yeah.
Did you, you would just go, go, go.
Cause like when I was at, there's certain,
certain bases where the hikes have to end.
There's, there's the top of a ridge
and like you can't go any further.
But shoot, like where I was at Dr.
Like you can just grab a piece
of a road and find another dozer
line and grab a piece of a road
and find another handline and.
Like those were the worst.
Like even as a squad leader,
you know, or a captain.
Like, I've hiked this hill a
thousand times, but I don't know
where, like, how foggy is the
guy in the front feeling today?
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Well, and and we had, if we're
running out of time, just give
us a, you know, yeah, we got, we
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
got about
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
two minutes.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Yeah.
Quiet.
So I gotta go to next
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
meeting.
No, it's quiet.
But yeah, if you guys wanna continue
this conversation after the day,
man, by all means we can, I gotta
call it though, I gotta go put on
a little presentation with booze.
So good.
But yeah, dude, this has been a hell
of a conversation and it's been real
eye-opening into the culture and like the
way hot Jack Crews actually operate gets
rid of some of that, like that mysticism
that those false, I guess, perceptions.
Those misconceptions that we have.
So, and yeah, there's a lot
of value being on a crew.
So, but since we're at the end of
the show and unfortunately I gotta
bail, sorry guys, this go on forever.
I wish it could go on more, but
we'll get you guys back on the show.
But before we go for a cut.
I'd like to give an opportunity for
you guys to give some shout outs
to some homies, heroes, mentors.
Take it away, man.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Oh man.
I'll go last.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
All good.
Uh, here we go.
Half a mine are dead, unfortunately.
Um, uh, first Captain Frank
Esposito, roommate, um, Charles
Morton, uh, shoot on my squad.
Burnt with them.
Shoot all the, uh, WN Harris.
I mean, the list is
probably, it's so long, man.
I need to get 'em all tattooed
so I can remember 'em.
But, uh, probably the person that
gave me a shot, the, at first, besides
Frank, was, um, my first superintendent
pe Coy just kind of looked at me
and said, well, he's a veteran
and it probably won't be that bad.
Um, and I really appreciated that.
Okay, man.
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
Uh, first I just, I just wanna
give a shout out to my, my wife for
dealing with me, uh, being a hotshot
basically since we've started dating.
So, um, she kind of.
Held the home front down for
over a decade while I was gone.
And then all my previous supervisors,
Jake Livingston, uh, Chris, learned
some great things from you guys.
Like all the overhead on the Suns, the
crew members I worked with over the years
on The Suns and, and people I led on Ruby.
It's like, I just, I, I appreciate
everyone and it, it's been,
uh, it's been a good ride.
I'm taking a new trajectory right now.
We'll see how that goes.
But, um, I just, I appreciate everyone so
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
fucking in, man.
Yeah.
For me, it'd be for my family,
you know, if you don't have
that support, can't do this.
Amen.
And then all the alumnis, you know,
that we're on Ruby, you know, everyone
probably still wants to be here.
And then for Maine is here, sitting
next to me, passing the torch, man.
Passing the
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
torch.
But yeah, I
Justin Zabala - Superintendent, Ruby Mountain IHC:
wish I could have worked for
him a little bit longer, but.
It is what it is.
And by far one of my favorite
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
supervisors.
You, you're
Chase Maness - Eastern NV BIA FMO, former Midnight Suns & Ruby Mountain IHC Supt.:
never fully ready to be a hotshot suit.
How much did
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
he pay you to say that?
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
My wife's gonna kill me.
Oh.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
So I'll close it out real quick.
I, I just, you know, probably my first
soup, uh, gave me the opportunity.
I felt like I was kind of a fuck up in
my life and, and trying to navigate,
uh, you know, definitely the family
aspect that I didn't really, you
know, value as much as I should have.
And then, uh, shoot, I'd say
everybody that, uh, put up with me
for my first years as a soup, you
know, let me practice leadership and
figuring out what wasn't working and
what we were trying to do better.
And, and just watching that
legacy spread and, and all the
badass shit they're doing now.
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Fucking hey, well gentlemen, thank you
for so much on for your insight and
your professional know knowledge here.
It definitely, uh, is a cool, ill insight
to how crews operate and like the culture
behind it, cuz yeah, like I said, a
lot of, uh, misconceptions out there.
So hopefully we can get you back on the
show a little bit later and, uh, we'll
do, maybe, hopefully we'll do round two.
I don't know if everybody's got time,
but we'll try and figure it out.
So.
Sounds good.
Kris Bruington - Nevada State BLM Fire Operations Coordinator, former Lone Peak IHC Supt.:
Chase has time.
I have time.
I don't know about these two Nevada's.
Big
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
copy that guys.
Thanks for listening.
JP Blair - Vegas Valley Handcrew Supt.:
Ready break
The Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
and boom.
There we go ladies and gentlemen.
Another episode of the Anchor Point
podcast is in the books with the Nevada
State Bureau of Land Management Cruise.
Yeah.
So I just want to, uh, say
thank you for being on the show.
I know, uh, a lot of crews and
especially hot shots, uh, well pretty
much any crew, they don't like being,
you know, on, in the spotlight.
I guess whether that's like, if media
shows up too, uh, an incident or if they
have to sit down and do an interview.
All I wanna say is thank you.
I definitely appreciate you.
Uh, you find folks getting on the show
and, uh, sharing your subject matter
expertise and your professional insight
and knowledge as to crews, how they
operate, some stuff on the horizon, the
old school versus new school, and all
of the other stuff that we discussed.
Jp, Justin, Chris, chase, dudes.
Thank you so very, very, very
much for being on the show.
Uh, yeah, that was epic.
So thank you once again.
Hope everybody got some, uh, tasty
little tidbits, uh, to this show.
Just to, uh, clarify, we, uh, are going
to be doing a couple more episodes with
the, uh, Nevada State Bureau of Land
Management and uh, yeah, there was a
lot of stuff that was, uh, recorded.
There was over like 14
episode or 14 hours of.
Content.
Yeah, it was a lot.
But anyways, I just want to give a
special little shout out to the, uh,
state of Nevada Bureau of Land Management
for making this thing all happen.
And a special shout out to my buddy
booze over at the ass movement for, uh,
basically carrying my ass through, uh,
a presentation that we had to give you.
Crushed it, dude.
Thanks.
Sorry I'm heavy.
That's for the rest of you.
I hope everybody enjoyed the show.
And, uh, yeah.
Up next, there's gonna be a couple of
other guests, uh, including aviation,
my boy Walker, and my buddy Paul, who's
gonna do a nutrition, uh, episode.
It's pretty epic.
So special shout out to our sponsors.
We've got Mystery Ranch.
If you want to, uh, apply for the
Mystery Ranch Backbone Scholarship, well,
TikTok Pitter Patter, May 31st is the,
Ending date for your deadline there.
So if you wanna submit your story,
go over to www.mysteryranch.com
and uh, start telling your story.
Yeah, you might have a chance to
win one of those thousand dollars
professional workforce development grants.
It's pretty awesome.
We've got Hotshot Brewery Kick
Ass Coffee for a Kick Ass Cause.
And a portion of the proceeds
will always go back to the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
Go to www.hotshotbrewing.com
and check out their full line of
coffee and coffee making stuffed.
It's awesome.
And of course we have the ass
movement, the finest purveyors
of poo bearing propaganda.
My buddy Booz over there.
Once again, another shout
out is killing it and.
If you wanna save 10% off your entire
order at www.thefirewild.com/the
as movement, well use the code
anchor point ass 10 at checkout.
It's awesome.
And last but not least, we have
the Smokey Generation, aka the
American Wildfire Experience.
Bethany, you have a kick
ass organization over there.
Keep it up.
Go over to www.wildfireexperience.org
and check it out.
Y'all know the drill.
Hope you enjoyed the show,
but stay safe, stay savage.
Peace.