Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Devin Bramhall [00:00:01]:
This is the thing that everyone understands. What he probably doesn't whoop, she probably doesn't. May or may not know. Likely doesn't. Is, like, how marketing directly contributes to revenue.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:06]:
Whoop.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:06]:
She probably doesn't. May or may not know. Likely doesn't. Is, like, how marketing directly contributes to revenue.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:13]:
How do we show up in the places that our customers exist, make them like us, and then get them to do something?
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:21]:
I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:23]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:24]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:26]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:30]:
We were gonna talk about control in creativity, especially in regards to leading a team and when to let go of creative control, when to focus. Creative control. Yeah, something like that.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:42]:
That's a good one. I feel like this topic is at every phase of my career. I've needed to work on this, and I've never perfected it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:50]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:51]:
And also, I don't know if this is just me, but, like, everyone around me lately is, like, doing that in their own lives, where they're like, everything is horrible. And even though I have complete control over most of it, I feel helpless and I'm not going to do anything about it. So, like, I don't know why I'm like, oh, gosh. Like, I don't feel that way at all. I feel like I have more agency than I've ever had in my life. And even though I'm still deeply unhappy, I'm, like, at least going in the right direction. I'm like. You know what I mean? Like, I feel fine.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:25]:
Yeah, I was trying to find, like, a funny way to, like, be like, a Devin Renaissance.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:30]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:30]:
You know?
Devin Bramhall [00:01:31]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:31]:
I was gonna try to merge it together, but it doesn't really merge together, but it will renaissance.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:38]:
If you know what? Talking to Anne really made me feel better about myself because she's in the middle of writing right now, too, and her manner was just a little bit different, was so subtle. And we got to talking about book writing and all this stuff, and I was like, wow. Like, I felt a kinship. Like, it's not just me. Like, this is my first time, so I don't know what I don't know. And, yeah, I was like, so it's normal to be cranky? She was like, yes.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:07]:
I feel like writing for me is the same way I feel about fishing, which is like, I don't like the act, but I like the result. Like, I don't like to fish, but I love catching a fish, you know? But you have to, like, really wait and struggle and not catch a fish to catch a fish. And I don't like that part. And writing is the same way to have written is wonderful. To write is so awful.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:33]:
You want to know what's crazy? I'm constantly finding new ways that we compliment each other because aside from writing a book, I love the act of writing, which is part of the problem, because I just had this situation with my client where we were working on some LinkedIn posts for her, and I was trying to hire her someone to do some ghostwriting for her just to increase in volume. She's a superb writer, which is part of the problem. And so we brought on a friend of mine and we were, like, figuring out. We were going over the project post, me and Allison. I told her I was like, you and I don't deserve each other because I'm going to get as persnickety as you, which is also why you trust me. And when I make edits, you usually go with most of them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:26]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:27]:
And I was like, so therefore, we are not allowed to collaborate on your lead.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:33]:
We need a counterbalance, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:03:35]:
Right. I do think that that's relevant for this discussion because I think when you look at it as giving up creative control, it feels very like, right? But when you think about it as a means to solving a problem or a means to an outcome, you're like, well, if it leads to fish.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:54]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:55]:
Or me having caught a fish.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:57]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:58]:
But it's not. It's less painful. It's faster. I get to spend more time in the I've caught a fish phase.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:03]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:04]:
Then you start to look at it and you're like, oh, maybe this writing is fine.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:11]:
Maybe. You're trying to talk me into it. I'm trying to think of the metaphor that I would say, which is like, giving up creative control would be letting someone bait the hook.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:23]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:24]:
Or like, do the bits of it that you don't like that you're not good at. But I think this is another piece of it, right? We're talking about creative control. And that can be all sorts of things. That can be words, that can be design and images and stuff. And I think it's really interesting that once you get up to. And I'm sure that there's the unicorns out there that were a brand designer that rose to CMO.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:48]:
Right? I'm sure that those people exist. But a lot of times it's usually when you're leading a team at some certain level in your career, you have these disparate skill sets underneath you that you can't go around and push the pixels, right? I feel like that's where I'm at, which is Especially when it comes to visual design, like, visual creative. I have to give up that control because I'm not going to go in there and push pixels, you know, like, I can't make the images. And thankfully, I have an incredible designer that, like, has absolutely changed our look and feel at the job I'm at right now. She was an intern of mine at OpenView, and then she went to another company, and then I was able to hire her on at Coderas, which was awesome.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:32]:
But, like, that's one place too, where I'm like, oh, if I feel comfortable with it there, where I'm like, yeah, like, what do you think we should do? You know, I can help mold it based on what I understand about, like, the internal values and stuff like that. But ultimately, like, you're gonna be setting the direction for the visual brand and design. Then why couldn't I do that with the other stuff that feel more comfortable with, like, in terms of writing and whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:55]:
Yeah. It's because if you have done things something away before, you're like, brain automatically decides that it's right. Sorry. Mine does. Mine's like, girl, you crushed it. Like, that's constant.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:08]:
This is the only way.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:10]:
Yeah. And so what I think happens is if you are familiar with the road ahead, where the turns are where the stop signs, you're gonna be more opinionated about how to drive it. Whereas, like, with design, I'm same as you. I appreciate the visuals. I'm a very visual person, but I just don't know how to make them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:30]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:31]:
And so working with a designer has always felt like an unlock to me. I'm like, oh, you're bringing things to life that I never could. And it's like, I think you need to get to a place with the things you already know. Like, just because it's familiar doesn't mean it's best. And I think those are the times, oddly, where I lean on data the most because it helps me get out of my own way. Like, there's a weekly email that my client sends out right now, and I came in and looked at everything, and they have new goals. So I'm evaluating the emails and deciding, like, what to do next to oversimplify this. And one of the things that I looked at, I was like, this design is, like, old.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:18]:
Like, it's not modern.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:20]:
So my first thought in my mind is like, okay, we've got to change the design. But then I'm like, do we? And so I looked at the email performance. They've been sending this email for years. And they get like, a 60% open rate and there's a lot to click on in there. It's like a resource roundup. So that's just like, it's sending people off site. Like, there's no real, like, marketing purpose to it. I think it's like an average 9% click rate.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:45]:
Makes sense. Tons of links, super relevant. But I was like. So when I was going over the revamp plan yesterday with them, I was like, look, we're not gonna change much.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:57]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:58]:
Like, I am going to change the design a little bit because I want to bring it up a tad. But I was like, other than that, I'm gonna experiment with. Net new content. I'm not going to overhaul this. Makes no sense. It's working. Whether I like it or not. Whether I like that, the way it looks or not, it's working.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:13]:
And I think that's one way that, like, if my persnickety, high maintenance, whatever self is trying to interject the data helps pull me out. It's like.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:28]:
Yeah, and also there is something about consistency that people really like. And so it's so often that every time I see a company do a new, like, logo redesign as part of their brand redesign, I'm like, you just threw in the trash all of that work that you did of associating that logo with this company and that brand and that trust. Like, every single time, I'm like, do you. I know it was fun and I know it was cool and I know it itched your brain, but, like, do you know what you just did?
Devin Bramhall [00:09:02]:
Yes. And there's been, like, funny consumer examples of, like, backlash when, like, the Tropicana one from years ago, and I'm sure there's more modern ones, but, oh, yeah, you're right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:13]:
Like everything It always ends up looking sort of phallic, right? Like, Airbnb's redesign came out and everyone's like, oh, no, I don't know what the woman version of does phallic cover both? No, phallic is just for phallus. Like a male thing, but you know what I mean? Like, it always looks like a body part.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:29]:
Oh, yeah. Like, I think B2B specifically is especially guilty of, like, those B2B founders should not be allowed to name anything, including their company. Choose a visual of any kind. Like, they're just so bad at it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:43]:
It's like, I have a tangential, hysterical story about logo designs, and it's not inappropriate, unfortunately, but I'm like, come on. When I started just fractional at the company that I went in-house to Coderas, we were branding their customer community. And so I actually was working with the designer. Then we brought in full time in a also a fractional sense. So we were doing this logo for the customer community that was kind of like a reimagination of our core logo to show the consistency, but also that it's new and whatever. And the way that the little arrow chevrons were placed, the middle of it looked like a flower. And it was so funny because all of us women saw it and we were like, oh, I wonder if a man would want this on. Would they feel comfortable wearing it like on a shirt or whatever? Because it looks like a flower.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:40]:
None of the men saw a flower. And so it was one of these hysterical things where I was like, oh, I'm trying to solve for a problem that like, the man will never even see that it looks like a flower because their brain isn't seeing. You know, I mean, it was so funny. Every woman was like, yeah, it look definitely looks like a flower. I wonder if that would work, you know.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:58]:
You know, I wonder in that moment. Like, is it blue and black or is it gold and white?
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:04]:
Yeah, well. And it was even like when we did it in the tonal kind of like black, white thing, like we all just saw a flower in the middle the way that the shape was. But men didn't sell.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:13]:
But see, that's the exact point because the finer your taste becomes, right? You do the same thing over and over and over again. You get better at it and you get better at seeing what best is. And you're increasingly the worst person to represent the masses. Yeah. You know, it's why people who work in fashion, like, they all wear black because they're like, if you look closely, they're paying attention to like the lines, the stitching of the lines or the fabric, whatever, they see nuance in their outfits. And a layperson is like, you're just wearing all black, right? And that's us.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:53]:
Like, we're wearing all black and being like, doesn't everybody see the magnificence of what I have done here? Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:01]:
And they're like, no, it looks like.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:03]:
You'Re just a flower. A flower. And that's why I think you're deputizing. Then you're deputizing to another person. And to do that effectively, I think you need to be open minded. I'm trying to think of a good example. This is great. When I was at Help Scout, we hired a person to manage our social media and this was back in 2016 through 2018.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:33]:
So we were posting all the time from the brand. People followed the brand. It was, like, a big deal. And the founders had very strong opinions about the brand, the personality, the look, the feel, everything, which was part of what made it such an exciting place to work, but also made it absolutely terrifying 100% of the time. And you can see how social is the first thing that, like, manifests for people and where they get the most itchy. And so I brought on Cecilia, who, God bless, was so, like, brave. And so she started doing things that even made me uncomfortable. I was like, you're using GIFs.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:15]:
Yeah. There's no brand consistency in GIFs. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:20]:
I was like, I only use help scout illustrations.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:25]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:25]:
Like, I was even a snob. And she's like, girl, it working. Like, look at over. And she was right. She was right. And what she was right about was not just, oh, people are engaging. She was right in the type of community feel we were trying to embody and bring close to us. We were a human customer service brand.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:55]:
One time I sent a newsletter on Thanksgiving that literally just, like, said thank you and celebrated customer service folks. We wrote this really nice note to them. No cta. So she got that and took it a step further and kept deepening it. Oh, wait. If I hadn't been able to step out of myself and see, wait, this is doing exactly what I'm trying to do. More of it just looks different.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:18]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:19]:
I could have squashed something that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:21]:
That actually was really. Yeah, that would really work. Yeah. That's a great example of creative control of saying, all right, maybe I don't know everything.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:32]:
Which, like, once you get over that hump, you're like, wait, this is great.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:36]:
Then you're like, wait, I know nothing.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:40]:
Like, for so much of my career, I was like, I wanted to be the one that knew everything because I thought that that would make me valuable. Now it's the opposite. I'm like, I don't know. I say that all the time. And if it's something I don't want to be good at, I don't help. Like, I don't try to figure it out. I'm like, this is beyond me. I actually can't even think about doing this.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:05]:
Then, like, if it's something I do want to do, then I'll invest a little bit in finding someone else to do it and maybe work more closely with them on it or something. But, like, I'm always trying to pass off the work now.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:22]:
Devin.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:23]:
Yeah?
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:24]:
How difficult is it to create content when you're also leading an entire dang company.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:35]:
It'S really hard. You know what's hard about it actually, is that you're not wanting the ideas for the content itself. Yeah. Because when I was running the agency, the mission and vision and values that I had set were like the passion inside me and why we were existing. And so I was constantly having these ideas that I would share with the team to get them motivated, but that would have helped my brand reputation while I was running it. When I left Animals, I didn't have time to create content. And also when I left, I didn't think anyone knew who I was. I say this all the time.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:18]:
People are like, oh my God, you ran Animals. I'm like, oh my God, you knew. And now that I'm a solopreneur too, who's like, okay, I'm writing a book, I'm doing more than consulting now. I'm building some things and need to be out there amongst my people because everything I'm building is for them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:37]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:38]:
And I actually, like, have to. And it's hard. And so having the ability to record something and have that be immediately translatable into multiple different types of content is literally how I get by.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:56]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:57]:
Actually it is quite literally the strategy in my book. I'm like the human centered, multimedia, AI-powered approach to content marketing. This is literally it. Because it's been my experience, it's like you need the media first to create that water of content flowing downriver that I can help you atomize, right? You're just using your own words.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:23]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:24]:
And the good news is that Share Your Genius has something called Content Catalyst that does exactly that. They take all the good stuff from your execs in a 90-minutesession and then they deliver to you video clips, social posts, full on articles, and it's all mapped to your strategy. Which is the most important thing about content creation is that it actually does something for you.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:49]:
And you know what's brilliant about that? Ever since I've been a marketer, I've gone to a new company and they've been like, should we start a podcast? And I've always been like, no, you're not gonna support, like, no, right? Whatever they want to do with media at first, unless it's part of my broader strategy, I'm like, no, well, guess what? Now you can say yes to that. Whether it's a podcast, whether it's a video series, like, whatever it is. Because now you can make the case for doing more with that. Because they literally hand it to you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:21]:
Yeah. It's like content facilitation instead of content creation. And I think the best part is you're not running around after your executives or your thought leaders about deadlines, about them actually creating it and getting it out the door, which is always the issue is, do they actually have time to do the darn thing? So all you need is 90 minutes for them to sit on a call and then share your genius does the damn thing and actually gives you all the content, and you don't have to wait and have that bottleneck be your executives.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:53]:
Right. And think about, like, this came up a lot a Animals where it was like, trying to write thought leadership for other executives was something that a lot of people really wanted, and it sometimes felt impossible to deliver. You could write something that's objectively good, and the CEO would hate it. And I felt that firsthand, where it's like, it is hard to write for me because. And so this is literally taking their words.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:19]:
And so they're.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:21]:
You don't even have to learn their voice.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:23]:
Yep.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:23]:
You're just using their voice.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:26]:
And I need to tell you that it works. It works because it's working for me right now. I am the queen of, like, No, I hate that I'm the worst. Like, I am my own worst enemy, right? Or everybody else's. Who knows? But when I see my words reflected back to me, I'm like, oh, yeah, I do believe that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:47]:
Man, you make me look good.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:49]:
I'll just. P.S. they can break this up probably a million things. So and P.S. we've been. They've been incubating this for a while, and we know because we're insiders, and both Katie and Rachel have kind of presented iterations to us along the way and gotten our feedback. So we, like, they built something that we believe in because we've seen it, and now we get it. Now we get it from them, too.
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:20]:
So if you're interested in having share your genius, do this content catalyst program for you. There's obviously a link in our show notes. You can reach out to them, Let them know your good friends Margaret and Devin sent you.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:34]:
Yeah. And just remember, instead of it being a big investment, instead of you thinking about, oh, I have to hire an agency or I have to hire a person, you're literally like, this is efficient. This is efficient use of money, because you're getting a lot for what you're ordering, and you don't have to get it from lots of different places. And the cost savings is huge, and.
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:58]:
Sanity savings can't put a price on that.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:01]:
No way. No way.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:02]:
I've said for the last couple years, like, I want to matter less. And I think this is how I've been talking about, like, management and leadership lately. Is that the way to do that effectively, to matter less but still have the team make good decisions is not to always tell them what to do in the individual moment, but instead let them peek inside of your brain of how you would make that decision. Like, do you have different data points? Because sometimes we make decisions because we make the best decision and we don't have access to data points that would have changed our decision if we had access to them. And I think that delivery of like, okay, first of all, why did you make that decision? Especially in, like, a creative place, how did you go about making that decision? And if you would have made a different decision, right? Like, like the. Let's go back to your GIF or no GIF. 1. If you were like, oh, I have a data point of the fact that, I don't know, we can get sued if we use GIFs or whatever it might be.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:06]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:07]:
You would be like, well, I would make a different decision because I have access to this other data point, right? And so I try to use that too. Of, like, if I would make a different decision from what my team's making, it's like, oh, well, I would make it because of these three data points that would put me in this direction. If I had this data point, it might put me in this direction. But letting them understand how you make decisions and how you would make decisions then gives them the ability to make even better decisions because they're doing the work and they have more data points than you probably do, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:22:34]:
And them not bossing them, right? Giving them like a. A mindset that they can mold however they want, right? I think that's kind of what you're saying.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:44]:
And you were saying that, like, okay, the social media brand voice is like, we want to be human, we want to be warm, approachable, blah, blah. And she was like, yeah. And I see that this new thing is actually a way to do that. And so you're like, yeah, I actually would make the same, you know, oh, yeah, I would make a different decision based on the fact that now I can see that this is the way that the world is moving towards and this is how people are like, to communicate and like to go back and forth on social media. And so I think about that all the time, where it's Like, I don't need to be the person that's always red light, green lighting things, because I don't want to be that person that stresses me out. If I just need to be needed all the time. Here's how I would make the decision. Sometimes it takes a little while to, like, indoctrinate someone into how you would make a decision so that they can make one appropriately, but then it's let them fly, you know?
Devin Bramhall [00:23:34]:
Yeah, I'm with you a thousand percent. I think this throw this, like, kind of hearkens back to the influence versus fame, where I want to be influential, which means I'm not always going to be in the spotlight. And that was very much with animals. I told you when I left animals, I didn't know anyone knew who I was because my thing, and I really learned this from Sunit. Sunit Bot was my everyone knows if they listen to this podcast. Actually, he was my boss at Help Scout, and he was the one that really taught me this, like, talking about how you make decisions and principles of how he leads, which he passed on to me. He's like, you are a hero if you're elevating others around you, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:24:17]:
Like, that is how. And I've always done that. So what you're talking about of like, not being the point, the focus, but being the enabler. That to me is like, yeah, that's the embodiment of influence. And I think what you're talking about makes me think you end up focusing more on providing context, like what you're talking about, whether it's how you make decisions or opening up the curtain a little bit more to give them that next layer of why. So they're like, oh, I get it. And then for me, the real unlock was realizing that my most important job is to define the question I'm trying to answer or the outcome I'm after as specifically and clearly and without jargon as possible, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:25:23]:
Because that was the thing. If you can help someone understand what you're after, then you shouldn't have to go in and be like, here's how to do it. It should be self evident. It's like, you know when you're talking about, like, marketing strategy, right? Okay, well, once you decide who your customer is, you'll know automatically what channels they're on. And therefore you'll know which ones to pick and you'll know the type of things to say, where the holes are, whatever. All these decisions get made for you.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:53]:
It's easy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:53]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:54]:
So you just have to get through that. First hard part. And what I realized this was my experience, particularly in the startup space, is an absence of corporate business training. I think they were mistaking all that micromanagement, like how and when and using what as clearly defining the project. When the thing that was never clear was like, why the fuck are we doing this?
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:26]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:26]:
Does that make sense?
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:28]:
Yes. And that's why I think we've gotten so far into the whole, like the over glorification of channels being like an end all be all. Because we've missed the bigger question of like, why are we doing this? And those are really important things to define. I always think there's always like one step above that. You're like, oh, I never even said this is the thing. And we walk through conversations and personal lives and professional life where we think that we're aligned here. So it goes without saying. And then we start talking, not realizing that we haven't like done like a.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:03]:
Okay, let me say that the stupid thing that I think we both agree on because half of the time you're not even there, you know, and then you're having conversations completely, like, not talking about the same thing because you didn't go and have the bravery to be like, I know that. We both know that we're starting here, right? Okay, now let's start the conversation. We'll just like start the conversation and completely miss each other because we didn't. We're like, oh, we don't need to say that, right? Like, we don't need to say the fact that the real reason we're doing marketing is to make sure that people know us like us and we can get them to do what we want them to do, right?
Devin Bramhall [00:27:38]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:38]:
That would be stupid to say that. But it's like, then we're like, you know, all in. Like, well, you have to have Twitter or else you're never going to have a brand or you have to have YouTube or whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:48]:
Well, it depends on your audience too. If you're talking to the product person, you're like, the thing you both agree on is that you're doing this to make money. That is the thing that everyone understands. Yeah. What he probably doesn't. Whoop.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:01]:
Whoop
Devin Bramhall [00:28:01]:
She probably doesn't. What she may or may not know likely doesn't is like, how marketing directly contributes to revenue.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:11]:
Because the way the framework in which she's used to operating has a much more direct action impact. Action impact.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:20]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:20]:
And yeah, that's a really interesting thing because I can automatically think of times in my past when I was running a project trying to get executive buy in or just like keep them on board. At that time, I. I think it was really just sunit that got the buy in, but I was trying to support it and I was giving all this detail that I thought showed I knew what the heck I was doing. I was like, look at my Trello board. This is gorgeous.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:49]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:49]:
And I remember my CEO one time being like, it is clear this is something you're not good at. I'm going to take this over for you. And I was like, first of all, rude and untrue, but also I was devastated because I thought I'd done all the work and I had. I just done the wrong work.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:07]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:07]:
The right work would have been in plain English saying, the purpose of this project is to. I was literally doing that this morning with one of the women I work with, my client and wasn't even anything that complex. It was. We were trying to work on like a new sales motion for them. And the task we were working on was like the process for getting it activated. And I think initially I had said something like, the purpose of this project is to, like, manage this aspect of sales to make sure nothing gets dropped. But once we started working on it, I was like, no, that's not it at all. The purpose of this project is to launch our sales motion by Thursday.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:55]:
Right. And I think that, like, to get there, the most important thing is to start asking those dumb questions. Don't you remember when you were coming up, like, these brilliant people asked what seemed like very basic questions, but also I couldn't answer them because they were so simple. And that takes, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:14]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:15]:
I'm like, that's it. I'm like, hold on, hold on, hold on. Like, we'll be in a meeting and I'll be like, what does that word mean? How are you interpreting that word? Yeah, those are the types of questions I ask.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:26]:
It takes a certain level of audacity, self confidence in your brain. You're like, I am noticing no one is speaking the same language here. So I'm going to say something that probably sounds dumb, but is going to point out the fact that we are absolutely having different conversations because then you also have to be willing to risk derailing the meeting. Or I don't want to make people feel stupid, but if we're all not actually aligned on what we're actually talking about or why we're doing something or why it's important, it's going to be bad.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:58]:
You know what? You're right. And the thing is, you Kind of have to earn the right to ask dumb questions, which is wrong. Like, I think that's bad. But there were times in my career where, like, I couldn't do that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:11]:
Yeah, no. I'm thinking of several times that I did, and I was not. I should not have, based on the fact that I did not have the ability yet to derail meetings and ask those questions. And I have. I won't tell the exact stories, but I have a couple times.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:28]:
I think there's an interpretation when you're at a certain level that other people have around your abilities, that even if you're really good, even if they think you're, like, better than everybody at your level, like, there's still this unaware assumption around how much knowledge you have. And so if you ask a question that's, like, simple and straightforward.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:51]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:51]:
They interpret it as you not having the knowledge. That still happens to me today. I don't know if this is, like, a woman thing, but sometimes I'm like, I'll ask what I think is a question that is complex in my mind, but very simple. And then they, like, start explaining marketing to me. And I'm like, that's not. I'm like, you know, I do this for a living, Right? This is what your profit margin is. I'm like, I think I know what profit margins are. I'm asking you a way more sophisticated question.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:18]:
My read on that, without being in those exact situations, is that defensiveness of not being able to answer your actual simple question, right? It's like, oh, she must not know this. And I'll just.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:29]:
Well, I will not name names. But I do remember a time when I. I was told that strategy was just doing strategy and that product marketing was. That part of the strategy was doing product marketing. And then explaining product marketing to me, it's like, have you heard of product marketing? I'm like, no names. No names. It was a very defensive conversation. And I was like, you should be speaking at a way higher, more sophisticated level than this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:10]:
But strategy is one of those things that I think nobody sits down and says, when we use the word strategy, what are we talking about?
Devin Bramhall [00:33:19]:
Most of the time, it's a plan, by the way. Most of the time, that's the issue. Yeah, yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:23]:
They're like, well, yeah, this plan.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:24]:
No, a strategy, are taking two things that don't go together and figuring out a way to put those two things together in a way that is better than anything you thought was like, it's faster. It doesn't just achieve your desired outcome. It's like the existence of those two things together creates a whole new opportunity for you and solves your problem at the same time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:50]:
That's a good strategy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:51]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:51]:
I think at the most basic level, it's documentation of executive alignment and the things you're going to focus on and not focus on.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:00]:
Yeah. When they say strategy, what most executives mean is, give me a plan of what you're going to do to get from point A to point B by this date, using these constraints that you have and these tools in this budget. I'm like, that is planning.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:18]:
But what we're going to focus on, what we're going to not focus on. That documentation is a strategy.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:25]:
Yeah, well, kind of. It's more a documentation that supports your strategy, right? Where you're like, you will have already figured out. Those are the manifestation of the why. So it's like if you make the decision of not focusing on this and focusing on this instead, those are the results of the strategy you've chosen that get built into the process. But it's the figuring out of what to include and not include.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:54]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:55]:
This is something that has come out of. My working with Jay was like, you know, when you're A process just works. Like when you just shut up and do other people's processes, it works. This is the perfect example. Everyone I've hired this past year to help me, A, they're all my friends, and B, I'm just like, tell me what to do and I'm going to do it. And it works. These people are really smart. So we're working on the premise and I forgot the prompt that he gave me, but he was like, oh, I think it was something like, what do you want marketers to stop or companies to stop doing something like that? And I said they should stop doing marketing.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:33]:
Just stop doing marketing. That's your entire problem, is you keep talking about doing marketing when you should be trying to achieve outcomes.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:43]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:43]:
And I was like, all of a sudden, all this stuff with the book, I was trying to tie together everything else. I was like, because this goes back to. I think we did an episode on it. It's like, marketing is business strategy if you let them do that, right? And so because you have at your fingertips, you are the cross section of product, customer sales, everything. Like, you're in the middle. And so if you're allowed to leverage all of those things and have some semblance of control, you can come up with a really smart business strategy.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:13]:
And when a company hires a marketer, a lot of times they're like, I need someone to do this kind of marketing. And maybe it's a big company that's established and they already have like their whole journey set up or whatever. But the problem is that journey doesn't always work. And I've seen that happen where like the decisions they made aren't working anymore or they never worked. It was like the impact of, you know, dev, or what do you call it, Marops being like, we have to do it this way and sales being like, f you like, I only want to qualify this type. And so real strategy in that moment is like, how do we get to our objectives anyway, right? I guess this is the thing I'm going to be telling people for the rest of the year.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:59]:
The foundation of all my marketers, stop doing marketing. Do business strategy.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:04]:
Companies.
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:04]:
Yeah, companies.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:05]:
I'm like, everybody stop doing marketing, right? Because that gets you to the kernel of the challenge, right? If you stop thinking about doing marketing or doing sales and you start to think about it as, I want to make more money, specifically this year, I want to make this much more money. It's like, okay, now you're starting with a from scratch mindset where you may realize, oh, not only our founder is hot shit and everybody with power and money already likes them. And so if they were to launch a newsletter for the first quarter before the product is ready to come out, we can build up like a lot of hype and following and engagement, whatever, so that when the beta is ready, we've got a hot beta list. Like, we can really get some awesome people on there, get them excited, use them to promote the product.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:02]:
And then you're like, oh, also, people pay for newsletters now, so we can actually charge for this and start to fund our marketing early on. Do you know what I mean? Like, you start to think about things completely different because you're like, you're solving a problem, you're not solving a solution. Yep. Which is marketing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:22]:
And I think I've been really all in on that idea too of like marketing. Especially, like content marketing isn't of itself a product. And so you have to think about product market fit of your content. You have to think about competitors. And you can also think about monetization, right? Like, there's a reason why conferences make a lot of money. Even like user conferences and like profitable companies that run conferences.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:53]:
You know what I mean? So if you're putting on a conference, who's to say that you can't make revenue from that for the business, you.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:00]:
Know, or like your e-books that you're like squabbling over, like, do we gate it or not? This is a moral question. I'm like, what have you charged for it?
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:08]:
Yeah, throw 30 bucks on there, you know.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:10]:
Yeah. And there are brands that have done that, right. They've done books or something. It's like if you take the marketing out of it, all of a sudden you have so many more options that you were completely blind to when you were looking through the lens of marketing, sales, customer journey, blah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:31]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:32]:
How do we show up in the places that our customers exist, make them like us, right? And then get them to do something. And those that get them to do something can also be make money for the company outside of any time that you purchase product.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:53]:
Well, that should be it, right? Like the end goal if you're a company has to be the maintenance, the longevity and the growth of the company. And it's just a fact of the way companies work. If you are going to secure any kind of funding, if you're going to take money, then outside of a loan or something that you could pay back over time, like growth is part of the deal. And even once you hit the street, it's like now all of a sudden, if you don't grow, that impacts your money through the value of your stock, right? And so like we see that every earnings on every earnings season or whatever. It's like recently, without getting too nerdy. Growth is always part of the deal of a company.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:36]:
It's what, it's part of the organism. It's what keeps it alive. It's human in its most abstract sense. But to do that, you can do it in more than one way. And one of those ways is to embrace community and make your organism thrive and grow through that. Or you could just create a go to market motion and do that. That does work. But I think the point is not all of that works forever.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:04]:
And you're always going to need to be open to other things. You need your eye on the ultimate ball, which is like, we want to stay alive and grow.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:13]:
Well, and how I think about this too, I think the best way to stay alive and grow, bringing it back to like creativity and creative control is if instead of thinking of like my company is the product and marketing is going to market the product, sales is going to sell the product and blah blah, blah, instead you think my company is here to solve problems of this specific group, right? And the product then is definitely probably solves hopefully some really good problems. But if you can then think about community and content and all these other things as that's also the company, right? Because the company is trying to solve problems for this customer base, then you can bring in and then it makes it more sense to maybe, yeah, monetize some piece of traditionally, what was content marketing or what was events and community stuff because. Yeah, because our company exists to solve problems for this group. But I think that's going back to what episode it was when you were like, marketers should be CEOs instead of product people.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:24]:
I don't know if you said instead of, but like you probably did, you probably said CEOs.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:30]:
And I'll stand by that. I'll co-sign that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:31]:
The only CEOs. But I think if you think about the reason why a lot of founder CEOs probably don't embrace that larger image is because they're product focused and they're like, my product will solve the problem for these. Not realizing that there are problems that exist for this customer base that your product will never be able to solve, right? Like, I always think of business process change anytime that you're, oh, I'll sell my product into the business or into my customer base or whatever. There's also the challenge of how do you get human beings to adopt a new thing? And your product might be really easy to use, but like the change itself, like change management, that's something that your product probably won't be able to solve. You need content and community and maybe even like a team of people that go on site to help.
Devin Bramhall [00:43:23]:
I think what you're saying is the product and the company, they're not the end point. And if leaders were leading from that mindset where they're technically. That's the whole point of having a mission and a vision. I just think that it's become an errand for most leaders and they don't really adhere to it. Those were my guiding light. Those are actually what kept me really focused at animals was like our vision, mission and values were infused into everything I did. I wasn't just like trying to get the team to use those words. I was like, this is how I lead.
Margaret Kelsey [00:43:50]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:43:51]:
And to the point where I still apply some of those values and principles today because they helped us achieve the outcomes that we wanted. And so what you're saying is like, you're really challenging leaders to do what they're supposed to do in the first place, which is like, have vision and be working towards that vision. It actually behooves you as a leader to be a cog in the greater wheel.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:20]:
Because that's where all your opportunity is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:23]:
And then your team is going to naturally come up with creative. Like if they have that umbrella instead of market the product umbrella and instead they think of. It's my mission to whatever. Solve the problems of whatever customer base is. You are then going to have more creative solutions bubbling up from your team that then you're going to be able to be like, wow, I didn't need to know everything. I didn't need to set so much parameters and guidelines. I just needed to give them something to, like, aspire to work on.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:53]:
Even you as a brand. Like, I remember when I was building community at Help Scout, most of my strategy involved going to practitioners in the community and highlighting their solutions. These were people at other brands. These were. I even. We've even included help, like support people from other competitors. I was like, guys, let's be friends. Like, let's do something together.
Devin Bramhall [00:45:18]:
I'm sure, like, you know, and it's. That was the stickiness and the power and the impact of that on getting people to change behavior was so much stronger. Had I been able to play that out, it would have worked. It had all the right signals. Actually, can I tell you this? Because we have to go in one minute and I have a meeting, but I had this realization the other day that I actually. I don't think I can point to, like, a single marketing campaign that I've ever been able to say, I saw this through and here are the results. I've made companies lots of money and I can point to exactly how I've done that, especially more so I know what you mean.
Margaret Kelsey [00:46:02]:
To go, like, from ideation to launch to completion with enough time and data to say, like, I did that.
Devin Bramhall [00:46:10]:
I literally have zero marketing campaigns under my belt that I can point to. I, like, grew traffic at animals one time and, like, I helped things go well from at other companies. But, like, it's fine. I was never allowed to finish. Like, the brilliant part was, like, about to come and they're like, you're fired.
Margaret Kelsey [00:46:35]:
Can't fire you now.
Devin Bramhall [00:46:37]:
I know. I want there to be a national fire day where everybody celebrates being fired at one time to change the stigma around it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:46:45]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:46:45]:
Mostly because I really like what I do, which is take someone out to, like, a really fancy lunch and go shopping with them. And it works. So I was like, I'm gonna make this a holiday. Like, let's celebrate being fired. It's not that bad.
Margaret Kelsey [00:46:59]:
Do we have a February 29th this year? Maybe it could be like, every four years on February 29th is national fire Day because we fire that day on the other years.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:09]:
I want it every year, though.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:11]:
Okay, well, we'll figure it out.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:12]:
Like, I would save up for that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:15]:
All right, Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:16]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:19]:
Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you, as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:23]:
We'll be back next week.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:24]:
And just remember, you're doing great.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:26]:
You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:28]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you got to get your shit together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:34]:
You know. You know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:36]:
You know.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:37]:
You know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:39]:
See you next week.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:40]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:40]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:44]:
A year and a half ago with my friend, on the day she was fired, she's fired from her job, and I.
Margaret Kelsey [00:47:50]:
She was shopping.
Devin Bramhall [00:47:51]:
That's what I do. Yeah. I was like, come on, we're going into town. I bought her, like, a really fancy lunch, and then we went shopping, and I was like, well, I have to buy stuff, too. And so we both liked the same blazer, and so we got friendship blazers.
Margaret Kelsey [00:48:07]:
Friendship blazers.
Devin Bramhall [00:48:09]:
So, like. And for some reason, on Friday, it felt like a sweatshirt.