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Liam Jones (00:00)
Awesome, we're back. Jo, you've been networking again.
Jo (00:04)
have been networking again and it's really funny because people say, you're everywhere, you're doing stuff, but I'm not really, I think it's the only networking event I've been to in a while, but I think I was just tagged in a lot of posts in LinkedIn and yeah, so it was, yeah, it was a good event actually. So it was the People Awards and Network by The Caterer and they were...
they were looking to do something a little bit different in terms of what a normal sort of event of this type looks like. So it was their first one and if anybody happens to be listening that went and you've got any feedback I know that Caroline and James from the Caterer is super keen to understand you know what they could do better and you know how it could be improved for next year but it's really was all about the people people if you like coming together.
and celebrating what's good about the industry. There were some inspirational speakers. So we had Trudy Parf for Mollie's. So she's amazing. And she was talking to us all about the perception of hospitality within.
education but younger years education so sort of early years, years seven and eight and how we can start to influence people as young as that about hospitality being career of choice. We could talk a bit more about what she was saying and also Emma Simpson who's the people and culture director at Glen Eagles she spoke and she's amazing so inspirational they've been on a five-year sort of people transformation journey and
Liam Jones (01:40)
Hmm.
Jo (01:49)
I mean, one of my key takeaways, I think you're just about to ask, you're going to ask me what my key takeaways from the day are and I've gone straight into it without you asking the question. I mean, you don't need to bother turning up anymore. Just get on here and talk. Yeah. And they, I mean, it was just an amazing, amazing stat that they, they received like over 28,000 vacancies every year.
Liam Jones (01:56)
God, you're asking the questions now as well, you can do everything, there's no need for me!
Jo (02:18)
into their business. Like what the hell.
Liam Jones (02:22)
Sorry they have 28,000 job vacancies come up. yeah sorry, got it.
Jo (02:25)
applications, no, no, no, come into their business. No, no, no, no, They've got, in fact, they're really unusual because the other thing that I was going to share with you is they've got no vacancies in their chef team, about 123 chefs and they've got no vacancies. So yeah, they've done an amazing job. And Emma's just, I think she's taken a really pragmatic view to how you...
attract the right people in in the first place, they've got really strong value set and then how they go around developing those people and yeah because of that they retain them and it's all about they have a culture that really cares about their people. They also won last year, they won the Caterer, the best employer Catey so you know they're clearly doing something right but
Emma usually she put up a lot of slides and usually when people put up slides and there's a lot of bullet points on it you kind of have a little sinking feeling in your stomach but actually she was so... speaking obviously isn't her actual natural thing to do but she was so engaging and so lovely and she came across so well and you just look at the presentation she put together and the...
the bullet points on it and the things that they have done, I mean, can't pretend to even remember what it is off the top of my head. And I'm sure if anybody, you know, followed her on LinkedIn and contacted her, she would share some of it with you. you know, just the, you know, they've just sort of, I suppose, gone back to basics and looked at every single touch point within the employee journey and personalised it to what it means to Gleneagles. And yeah, it's an incredible, incredible place to work.
and if you consider also not only is it hospitality and all the challenges that brings as we know, it's in the middle of, you know, it's in the highlands of Scotland, right? You know, it's, yeah, it's, is it in the highlands? I don't know where it is. It's somewhere in Scotland. Yeah, so no, was really good having been part of the judging process for Best Places to Work in Hospitality, having seen how well they did in the survey last year, it was so nice to actually.
like see her, you know, talk about what was going on. So yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, so I suppose, yeah, that was, that was one, one of my, my top key takeaway is, you know, if you want people to come and work for you and stay, look after them. It's not a difficult one, is it? It's not rocket science. I've based my whole career on it, but yeah, you know, find out what makes them tick and deliver it.
Liam Jones (05:08)
You
It's a good demonstration isn't it though of the ROI that you get from using something like Korero or any other way that you can engage employees. think sometimes like stories and case studies like that really hit home don't they?
Jo (05:18)
Yes.
Yeah, think it's definitely, you know, sometimes when people speak at events like this, you know, it, I don't know, I don't know, it just came across really, really well. I don't want to criticise people speaking at events, getting up and speaking is really, really difficult, right? But I think just the way that Emma sort of explained it, I think everybody in the room is a bit sort of like, wow, you know, it can sometimes feel like...
in certainly when you're talking to people, people, HR professionals, sometimes it can be a bit preaching to the converted because we all know what we need to do. It's often to do with resource or time or, you know, yeah. So I think just seeing someone and look, they are well funded and that obviously helps. But I think the main thing is, is that the money that they put into caring for their people has, you know, paid massive benefits. And I think
Again, I can't remember the stat, but there's, you know, it's over a hundred thousand, maybe near a 200,000 that they saved in retention costs, in sort of recruitment costs by getting the retention stuff right. So there is ROI behind it. You know, we do know that is the case. It's, yeah. Totally, can't, how annoying. I'm not going to remember the stat. There was, I read a stat the other day, which is the latest.
Liam Jones (06:44)
It's expensive to hire, isn't it?
Jo (06:54)
cost of replacing somebody and it is, it's hundreds, like thousands. It's, you know, it's ridiculous and a lot of things that you just don't even think about or you can't put monetary value to like team morale and you know, just knowing stories and I suppose that, you know, brings me on to sort of my second takeaway which was from Trudy from Mollie's and she was talking very much around how we...
as an industry we all know that sometimes it hasn't got the strongest reputation as an industry of choice for people to work in and there's loads of work by loads of amazing people going on in this area but Trudy sort of illustrated from Mollie's from their perspective what they were doing and how they were storytelling around the things that they are doing so it's not only that you've got to do this stuff but then it's also how do we get that out and and share that.
And I think, and again, I think the stat is only 12 % of parents would recommend hospitality as a career of choice to their children. So, you you're coming up against all the time, people sort of, you know, not necessarily being like, my God, yeah, you know, go and do this. This is an amazing industry. A lot of people just fall into it. And by...
like sharing real life examples of what the industry can do for different demographics of people. Trudy really illustrated how Mollie's are really getting that right. They do so much in terms of people with special educational needs. They do a lot with people with learning disabilities. there, and we saw some videos from some of the people that work at Mollie's who,
know, chef who had learning disabilities and he's probably the most loyal person they've got on their team. You know, he's amazing. You know, and you can tell he absolutely loves Mollie's and the loyalty that you all inspire from looking at different types of people and that kind of thing. It just means that if you do go into schools and you talk about it, doesn't matter who you are, where you come from. Hospitality is somewhere where you can progress and you can find a home.
So yeah, so was really, yeah, it was great listening to Trudy. And again, you know, I'm sure if you reach out, connect and reach out to her, she will share with you some of those things. I'm pretty sure if you go onto her LinkedIn, she's shared, she shares some good stuff around the stuff that Mollie's doing. yeah. And stalk her.
Liam Jones (09:36)
Yeah, we'll tag her in when we post this and hopefully she can share some bits and bobs to the audience which should be quite useful then.
Jo (09:42)
Yeah, exactly. And then there was some other so yes, we had the inspirational stories and then we had some sort of personal development as well. So Jodie Goldman has got business and she is all about, you know, confidence and I suppose owning your own voice.
and she was very good, she's very entertaining, she's a great speaker. And she had the room, she us all standing up and all doing stuff and doing stuff that you might think, God, that's a bit cringy, I don't want to do it, but she had us all doing it and we all felt great afterwards. So it's always nice. And again, I think that's what the Caterer were looking to do with this event was to make it, okay, let's have some inspiring stories from people doing some really great stuff, but also let's give something back to the people in the room and let Jodie and...
We had the girls from Becoming who do a lot of, again, stuff around confidence, just sharing sort what they do. But as again, you know, wasn't, they weren't selling what they were doing at all. It was much more around helping us to be better at what we do. Because I don't think anybody doesn't have that little imposter syndrome in their voice, in their head sometimes. So that was great. And then we had some...
industry specialists in terms of Mark McCulloch. I don't know you've ever come across him. Yes, he did Hospitality Rising and he shared with us about just in terms of when you are recruiting, you have to go where people are hanging out. And he shared with us a campaign that he'd worked on with a business called Buzzworks, which is a Scottish bar and restaurant based in Scotland. Great, great organisation.
Liam Jones (11:05)
Yeah, he's the marketing guy, isn't he?
Jo (11:30)
and they were looking to do a big recruitment campaign and they went and got some influences from TikTok to help them and it generated so much interest and so many applications for the roles. But if I looked at it and maybe even you Liam is your, what are you, millennial? I think we established, we? Yeah.
Liam Jones (11:55)
That's right,
Jo (11:57)
But so even from a Gen X, from a millennial perspective, we'd look at it and go, what in the world is that? But the guy that they used is a massive influencer in Scotland. And, you know, I looked at it and I was like, what is this? And I'm pretty sure that Mark said that Kenny, who runs BuzzWorks, you know, he was like, absolutely not. But do you know what? Just go with it. And it was one of the best campaigns they've ever run, which shows that you have to...
look at the demographic of the people that you want to recruit and see where they're hanging out and who they are influenced by. know, it's no good putting a lovely shiny video on LinkedIn because no one's going to see it.
Liam Jones (12:40)
It is interesting that isn't it? think like that's something which I've been thinking about quite a lot after the US elections because so much money was spent on TikTok ads and all this type of spend to try and reach these younger people because like you say, you've got to go to them. There's absolutely no way of bringing them to you where you want to hang out. It's just not going to work.
Jo (12:48)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, not at all. The rate at which technology is moving at the moment is quite, it's phenomenal, isn't it? Every single day I'm learning about something new. Emily, who works with me, she does some project management and helps me organize my life and everybody needs an Emily. And she actually won an EA.
she was shortlisted for an EA award. So I'm super proud of her. Big shout out to Emily. And she, I was on the phone to her this morning. She told me about two new bits of AI that I'd never even heard about. And just before I came on this call, I was messing around, making my own digital twin and giving it a script and seeing what it said. And I'll send it to you afterwards, Liam. We can decide whether actually, maybe I'll just do that before our podcast. You can just have my, I know, exactly.
Liam Jones (14:00)
Yeah, maybe we don't need you anymore. Maybe I could just interact with that instead.
Jo (14:05)
There you go. Much more fun for you, I'm sure.
Liam Jones (14:10)
Do know what? Like I always said when I was, when I was like really young that, I was trying to teach my parents to use the internet or whatever it was, the internet mostly. And I always remember thinking to myself, I'm never going to be in a position where I don't know what, how to use the very latest thing. But you know, obviously I'm in tech and you're in tech. we do, we do know a lot about a lot of incoming and stuff.
things like AI and that type of tech. But I'm finding it's mostly trends. I'm so far behind on trends. There are all sorts of trends that young people in quotes are using now that even me at the age of 37 just don't even know exists. And if I knew it existed, I'd have no interest in it anyway. So you just, can't stop it.
Jo (14:58)
Yeah.
No, you can't, and it's a really difficult one because, for example, TikTok, I'm not on TikTok, and I always said, well, when my kids go on it, I'll go on it and learn about it just understand it so I know what they're doing. But my daughter's 13, this is a complete segway, not about the Caterer at all, but anyway. And she, because we've spoken so much about social media and because I've told her about the Australian ban on it the other day and...
how you shouldn't be going on it until you're 16 and the impacts that it can have on mental health and all the rest of it. She's not really pushing for it. So I feel in some respects, I'm not gonna get TikTok because I don't want her really to have it. I'm not gonna stop her having it probably if she really wants it and all her friends have. But it's an interesting debate. You've got to keep up with stuff, but also what's the detriment of that? Anyway, sorry, you can edit that all out. That's nothing to do with the people who was.
Liam Jones (15:59)
Yeah.
Jo (16:01)
But it does come onto, I suppose, my last takeaway, which was we heard from Lorraine Copes from Be Inclusive Hospitality. Have you come across Lorraine? she's amazing. So she's doing a lot of work on diversity, equity and inclusion within hospitality. And she put up a graph which showed the demographics of
diversity within the UK. you know, how, you know, percentage of ethnicity is within the UK. And, you know, that was fine. And then she put up one in hospitality. And actually hospitality, as far as diversity goes, when you look at it as a whole, pretty much mirrors the same as the UK. What is shocking is when you look at where those roles are and where they're being filled.
and know, fair play, there was her and somebody that worked for her in the business and they were the only black women in that audience of maybe a couple of hundred, 300 people. You know, when you look around the room and she was saying, you know, what rooms do diverse people sit in and they're not the boardrooms. And you know, I'd say from a female and from a gender, under ethnicity point of view, I hadn't really understood.
that although as an industry we're super diverse and I've always been really proud to work for an industry that is diverse and that is welcoming and that is inclusive, but actually, you know, where's the power? And that isn't diverse and that isn't equal. And yeah, I suppose that just made me think a little bit more and yeah, appreciate, you know, what's going on for other people. One of the statistics is that,
43 % of people believe that their ethnicity had acted as a barrier in their careers. And I suppose even the subject, my own lived experience, is that I've been really lucky. I've happened to just work with females. So my gender, and certainly not my ethnicity, has ever been a barrier. So to have that to face into as well. And again, if we come back around to why we're doing these, about having career conversations.
It's important to address those things with individuals and have the confidence to ask the questions and speak to people like Lorraine and work with her business, be inclusive to understand, how do I have that conversation with somebody and how do I understand what the barriers may have been for that person without offending or without...
you know, without making it worse or whatever it might be. I think it's quite a delicate subject and some people therefore shy away from it rather than facing into it. And you don't know what you don't know. And again, you know, lot of people unfortunately are too busy to go and educate themselves. yeah, Lorraine sort of showcasing what her business is doing and how she's helping the industry become.
sort of more equitable and more inclusive and therefore more diverse throughout the, you know, throughout all levels of the industry. I think that was really interesting. And yeah, so that was definitely something that stuck in my head as a result of attending the award, the networking bit. And then Michelle Moreno, do know her? Have you come across Michelle? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. She's brilliant. I've linked in. Yeah, who hasn't? And she did a networking session at the end.
Liam Jones (19:33)
Yeah, I've come across it on LinkedIn, Who hasn't?
Jo (19:42)
And again, everyone's like, you're joking. I've got to actually go and speak to people at this thing that is a networking event. But we all went and spoke to people that we've never met before. And again, being forced out of your comfort zone is nobody wants to do it, but everyone really appreciates it when you do. And she is just a ball of energy. Absolutely love her. So yeah, it was...
Liam Jones (20:03)
you
Jo (20:08)
It was great seeing her do her thing in real life. I've never met her in real life. We've always had a Zoom conversations or LinkedIn exchanges and I'd count her as a friend, but yeah, I actually met her. So that was cool. And then we went on to the awards where Craig Prentis who runs Walk for Wellbeing, he won a sort of a special achievement award for all the work and effort that he's put into.
walk for well-being and working with hospitality action to raise awareness around mental health and Sean Wheeler, I was lucky enough to present Sean Wheeler with a special award because he, maybe it's a special award, I can't remember exactly what it was called, a special achievement, I don't know. Anyway, they both got special awards, a great one Sean. You can go and find out what they were specifically on the caterers website.
Liam Jones (21:00)
We'll tag them and then I'm sure they'll pipe up in the comments saying what that award was. They should do anyway.
Jo (21:03)
Yeah, there you go. This is what it was. This is what it was. I might have it, was it here? No, I didn't have it. So yeah, so Sean won an award and just, know, Sean Wheeler, if you don't know him, he is, he's one of the best people in sort of the people and culture space. He's worked for so many different organisations, mainly hotels, but he started off in pubs, bars and restaurants. And I've worked with him for...
wow since about 2005 in different organisations and I now work with him, he does some consultancy, I now work with him on a couple of projects and he's influenced and helped hospitality be a better work, know, a better industry to work in through all the stuff that he's done. He's always looking out for the next, you know, the next thing and he's mentored so many people, so many people have worked for him so yeah, he was totally deserving of the award so.
Yeah, no, was, yeah, it was a brilliant event actually, really good.
Liam Jones (22:07)
You know, on the equity point that you raised, so you're saying the findings were that more responsible jobs were far less, there were far less people, well, it was less diverse in race and gender, or one or the other, I didn't catch that.
Jo (22:12)
Yes.
So, I mean, what Lorraine was sharing was in race. I don't know about gender split. I probably said gender. I'm assuming that. I don't actually know what hospitality is a sector.
Liam Jones (22:40)
So basically it's more white in higher up with more responsible roles than other industries at the point.
Jo (22:45)
Yeah. Not necessarily than other industries than the UK average, just the, you if you look at the population of the UK, hospitality is as diverse as the population of the UK. But when you looked around the room that we were in on that day, that wasn't the case. So what does that mean? And is there a barrier to progression related to ethnicity and how organisations dealing with that?
Liam Jones (22:50)
than the UK average.
Hmm.
So there are multi, it's a multicultural industry, but for some reason people aren't reaching the top basically. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it?
Jo (23:15)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, really interesting. you know, unless, unless it's impacted you, it's something that I would imagine most people don't necessarily think about. And so the work that Lorraine's doing is, you know, really bringing stuff to the forefront that we should have all been thinking about a million years ago. So yeah, it's, yeah, it was, it was great to hear her talk.
Liam Jones (23:52)
Got a question for you. So we link a few things here now. So talking about this sort of diversity. I think there's a couple of reasons why diversity is important. Obviously, we want to give everybody equal opportunities, which should lead to diversity. But I think the other reason as well is, and this is something I've found quite a lot in my career, is there's a real direct benefit of having a diverse leadership because you get all sorts of different.
thoughts and ideas through like cultural experiences and how people were brought up and this that and the other. But I think one of the things which is quite interesting, I don't really hear people talk about that much, is having an age diversity in leadership position. And I kind of was quite lucky a few years ago to see this firsthand. So I was a non-exec director at Liverpool Chamber of Commerce and I was the youngest non-exec...
non-exec director that they've had in like 150 years. I was 30 when I got it, when I joined the board there. And I was probably the youngest by at least 20 years, 15, 20 years probably. But they really wanted me to join because of, I sort of had like as a young entrepreneur, I had like a really...
different handle on to what was going on with trends and what we were talking about before and stuff like that. And I could bring a lot of that. But at the same time, I was always very conscious that there's like a, there's a trade-off isn't it? Because you don't want people who are too young and too inexperienced. They've got to be of a certain experience in order to offer value. And I think that's quite a difficult thing for a leadership team.
to do is to decide when somebody has got enough value at a young age to bring it.
Jo (25:49)
Yeah, I I've seen, I mean, there are a number of different things to sort of, you know, rather than put somebody into that position, I've seen organisations guest people in. So you guest people into a board meeting from different, yeah, you know, like somebody from a different, a job role that's sort of really at the sharp end of the business. And so,
everybody's getting, so they get their thoughts as well and same from a generational perspective. So somebody that would just come in so they don't necessarily have to have the job, but they can come in and offer an equal voice on that particular, you around that table. I've also seen shadow boards where you make up, you almost give the shadow board the same agenda and the same information and then they go and have that meeting and then they come back with their actions and then the actual board can look at that and
sort of see, well, this is the decisions we made, that's the decisions they made. So can you imagine if you had a board and then you had a shadow board made up of, you know, younger, younger people, more diverse people, whatever that might be, that would be quite cool. And then the other thing, just to make sure that it's represented is just to have, is reverse mentoring, you know, is to have each person on the board have somebody from, you know, different generations where they have the,
the transparency and the openness to be able to have those kinds of discussions and to get opinions from people and then they can represent that at board level. Because you know, you can't just be a director. It does come with experience and it comes with responsibilities. You know, if you are a board director, you are legally responsible for the wellbeing of that organisation and that, you know, that needs to be earned as well. So putting somebody on there because of their age, I don't think is the right move. Having somebody...
having somebody coming in and sharing opinions because of their age is the right thing to do. So your example is perfect where, you know, there's no implications. You're not going to, you know, get anybody in massive trouble by sharing your opinions when you did that role. So yeah, so there are different ways that people can do it. Do people got to do it? Like it's all very well, I can sit here and spout off ideas till, you know, till whenever, but, you know, I'd love to know if anyone has done that.
in our networks, it would be really interesting.
Liam Jones (28:19)
Yeah, no I'm particularly fascinated about that age thing. I think as technology speeds up, I think the experience that generations have, I think that gap just gets, it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. So do you know what I mean? I think the experience that somebody who's 20 and 30 has now is much bigger. That 10 years almost feels like 20, 25 years.
Jo (28:35)
In what way?
Liam Jones (28:47)
compared to sort of in the 90s or the 80s or whatever it was. Whereas 10 years, not that much is happening, know, a childhood would still kind of be the same. Whereas now it's just exponentially different.
Jo (28:57)
Yeah. Yeah, it changes so much. I literally used to have to go to the library or go and get an encyclopedia, an actual book to find out stuff to do my, to learn stuff, you know, and even now, and I run a tech business. Yes, I do. You know, I'll ask somebody a question and then look at, you know, and we'll sit and debate the answer and not...
it doesn't pop into it, it still doesn't pop into my mind. I'll just ask this device that I have with me at all particular times because it will be able to tell me that information. I'll still sit there and have a full-on argument with somebody about what I think and I could just find out but I don't because I'm of that generation and it still doesn't come naturally to me. Whereas my kids, I mean, Alexa tell me this, Alexa tell me that, you know, I was talking to somebody this morning, was it this morning?
Liam Jones (29:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jo (29:54)
which is talking about how the speak that, the universities can't keep up with how to monitor coursework coming in that hasn't gone through AI because the AI is moving faster than the technology to understand whether it is generated through AI or not. know, so, you know, there's so much happening as a
Liam Jones (30:17)
Detector, yeah, yeah.
Jo (30:23)
a lawyer that I follow on LinkedIn, Alison Berryman, and she works in the legal sector with tech businesses and the amount of legislation that is going to need to be put into place. Yeah, it's quite scary. Anyway, we've gone off a massive tangent again. Do some editing.
Liam Jones (30:47)
We're Just to finish my tangent, I was thinking as you were talking about all the things that we used to do that we don't do anymore. was thinking when you used to drive somewhere, you didn't know where you were going. You had to stop every 30 seconds to check the A to Z.
Jo (31:03)
my god. Yeah, when I worked in London for Bacardi, I used to have one of the London A to Zs and I used to be able to read it and drive at the same time. And it wasn't illegal to speak on it. We'd just started having mobile phones, but they weren't smart. You pulled out the aerial. And I used to have a phone in one ear, I'd be driving in the other ear. I may or may not have had a seatbelt on. may, know, map.
Liam Jones (31:14)
Mad, isn't it?
Jo (31:32)
trying to work out where I'm going. I mean, what the hell?
Liam Jones (31:34)
Obviously much more responsible now. So is there anything else, any other points that you've got written down that we've not covered from the event?
Jo (31:39)
Obviously, yeah, much more responsible.
don't think so. I've probably forgotten somebody, sorry if I have, but anyway, they won't get tagged in will they, so they'll never know. Yeah, I mean, just, you know, just a big thanks to James Stagg and Caroline Baldwin at the Caterer for, yeah, just, I suppose just, again, putting a spotlight on the fact that this is a people industry and the people that work in the people teams are...
Liam Jones (31:52)
Ha ha ha.
Jo (32:14)
really important and yeah it was was really good to celebrate some of those people and i will give a shout out to cheval collection because they're our client and they won the digital transformation award because they use Korero and i didn't even know they were entering it so i was really happy about that so there we go a of a plug there am i allowed to do that on my own podcast this whole podcast is a plug but anyway whatever hashtag ad
Liam Jones (32:33)
What a fantastic way to finish.
Love that. We wanted to do that didn't we because you obviously really enjoyed the event. You thought the event was great and we thought this would be a good opportunity to jump on and kind of summarise it and stuff. So quick note to the listener that we will be getting back to our usual schedule in the next episode which is a conversation starter. So Jo and I will be going through one of the questions that you can ask on Korero and why you would want to ask it and...
what sort of the benefits are of asking that as well. So hope you join us next time. Jo, thank you so much. That was brilliant. Thank you. Bye.
Jo (33:12)
Bye!