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This way, Jay chats with advocate and podcast host Garth Mullins!
Discussing issues of Mental Health, Substance Misuse and Recovery, and Drug Use & Policy with host Jay Shifman, Speaker, Storyteller, and Advocate.
Each week Jay chats with interesting guests as they seek to destroy stigma and advocate for honest, educational conversations that motivate positive change.
You can learn more at https://jay.campsite.bio/.
Choose Your Struggle has been streamed in over thirty-five countries and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
Leave a review! https://ReviewThisPodcast.com/Choose-Your-Struggle
*** Transcripts are not edited for reading.
You are listening to the, choose your struggle podcast, a member of the shameless podcast network.
Welcome to the choose your struggle podcast. I'm your host, Jay Schiffman, on this show, I interview people with lived and learned experiences and the subjects of mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy. But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. And this week show ain't interview, Garth Mullins, a drug use advocate and the host of the crackdown podcast.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the choose your struggle podcast. So great to be back with you all. Thank you to everyone who reached out about last week's episode. I love chatting with JT sort of great guy. I hope you go check out his work. He's doing some really great stuff, not just around here in Philadelphia, but his podcast is wonderful.
And if you yourself are a veteran or someone who works in a. Yeah, disaster response, law enforcement, whatever, reach out he's. He's a really interesting guy to chat with giant. Thank you to everyone who continues to reach out and promote and made it. Uh, the reviews are rolling in, which is awesome to see.
Uh, as I mentioned last week, I do see those. So thank you. Uh, if you have not left a review, you can do so on apple. At the after show itself, you can do so at the link in the show notes of those, those episodes, um, there's a review link and you can check that out and I really appreciate it. It really means a lot.
Keep sharing, had some really interesting people, reach out with, uh, thoughts about it. People from all around the world. It's been very cool. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Please keep reaching. Thank you for the people who tried out bought inbox. Um, none yet, none yet that, uh, our, our show worthy, uh, and that's not an insult to the, a couple of people have tried it.
They very clearly were just like, I'm trying this out. Cause you said so, which is very nice. Thank you. If that's all you want to do, I really appreciate it. Uh, but if you want to get played on the show and get a, choose your struggles, swag bag believes actually say something and not just, Hey, and following your instructions and trying this.
A couple of other things before we get into this week, show number one, I linked in the show notes last week, but I'm actually going to say it this week and put it in the show notes again. I have an article out in yes. Magazine about the overdose crisis and how we can just make the world a better place for drug users and those struggling with substance misuse by remembering why people choose to use drugs, uh, mostly for.
The the magazine edition is specifically aimed at, uh, it's. The pleasure issue is what they call it. And I was chosen to write an, uh, an op-ed essentially an article on, on using or finding pleasure in drug use and how our, our drug laws don't honor people who choose to use drugs for pleasure. Uh, check that out.
It's linked in the show notes, or you can go to yes. Magazine search for that and go to their pleasure issue and find the article. Let me know what you think. I greatly appreciate it. Got a couple of other writing stuff in the works. So stay tuned on that. Uh, some really exciting news also in the show notes and all over my social media, I am a finalist for best of.
Uh, it's a competition. They do every year, all sorts of stuff. Everything from lawyers to the best pierogi is, uh, to the best Philly blogger is the category. I am him. I'm a finalist of one of seven, I think, or six, uh, Voting goes until September. So, um, would definitely appreciate you if you vote. The link will be in the show notes of every episode until then.
Uh, it's also on my, my campsite link. It'll be on all my social media. So check that out. And if you feel like voting also. Our good friends over at Savage sisters are also a finalist in the non-for-profit category. So big shout out to Savage sisters. Uh, so that is very cool. Consider voting for both of us.
Um, I'm under the arts and categories, no arts in entertainment, category Savage is under the services category. So if you feel like voting, check that out, I would really appreciate it. Final thing before we, uh, get into to some other stuff. I am recording this on Wednesday. Since I did, since I recorded the intro to last week's episode, which was on Tuesday or Wednesday, there have been three mass shootings, three, I debated doing something like I did for abortion, where I was like, I'll I'll punt, this week's episode into something.
And then I remember that this is just a normal week in America. I mean, three is a lot, obviously, but we have not gone two days without. Uh, shooting the qualifies as a mass shooting. And that is four or more people shot in like years. That in itself is I think it says more than I could ever say. Uh, I don't want to, I'm not going to commit the whole episode to this.
Uh, Yes. Be mad at Republicans, obviously very easy, but take the second step and actually step back and say, you know, honest question on his question. What have Democrats done? I mean, what have they done? What have they done? Uh, I appreciate the people, um, mostly on social media and a couple of news. I will shout out.
This is starting to become more of a common reframe who correctly pointed out that all it took was one person. All it took was one protest outside of the Supreme court. And our government jumped into action and banned that even though a lot of those protests were either co uh, co-hosted or supported by the neighbors of the Supreme court members, it took one, one day.
Um, and yet we continue to have more mass shootings in the rest of the world combined and nothing, nothing happens. So. Yeah. I don't know, smarter people than me are calling for all sorts of answers. Everything from mass, uh, protests to, to, uh, boycotts of, um, businesses that continue to support legislators, all sorts of stuff.
I don't have the answers. Um, if you, if you are a group that is looking to do something big and you want to amplify your voice, reach out, I'll happily do it. I don't have the answers. I do know. That everybody blaming the solely on Republicans is, is willfully blind, uh, because it is everything, uh, And, and, and again, this is sort of highlighting the difference between a couple of years ago when Biden came out and called for action, I saw very few people applaud that and more people go, are you fucking kidding me?
You're the most powerful man in the world do something. So props to that change that is progress. Yeah. Um, that kind of rolls into this week's episode because the guest today is one of the better advocates. And I know, uh, specifically around drug use and addiction, uh, he is Garth Mullins. Garth is the host of the crackdown podcast.
Uh, a guy who has been very open about his own drug, use his own struggles with addiction. Substance misuse. All of that. Uh, Garth is part of the drug users, liberation front up in, um, Canada, his podcast. You've heard me talk about it before. It was one of the ones I shouted out on, on made it. He is a guy that I really admire doing incredible work.
Um, his show is fantastic. It's one of my favorites and I follow the drug users, liberation front, and, and all they're doing. I just, you know, they walk the walk and talk the talk and Garth is right there in that. And I just so appreciate it. Um, there was an issue with Garth's connection. Uh, so there's some crackling and, and I did, I got her pat myself on the back here.
I actually did a really good job editing, uh, trying to take out as much of that as possible. When you listen to it, you may go, wow, this is good. Um, no, no. How long I worked to make that sound the way it does on this episode. Um, because Garth was well worth it. His, his words are that. And I wanted you all to hear that.
Uh, as I promised in the episode, a couple of times, there's a lot of his stuff linked in the show notes, as well as his music. So give that, give that a look. Um, and maybe, you know, if you feel inspired by Garth, uh, to, to, to, you know, walk the walk and talk the talk, reach out, maybe we can collaborate and think of some, some solutions together because, uh, no matter what we are.
So without further ado, enjoy this conversation with a really incredible guy that I admire. Garth Mullins.
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Support us on Patriot. Check us out at patrion.com/choose your struggle or at the link in your show notes. All right, welcome back to the Jews, your struggle podcast. It is great to be with you all as. So today we have a guy on here who I have been a fan of for a number of years from a podcast that I don't say this lightly.
This is one of the ones I listened to. And that is cracked down. I truly, I was on a meeting earlier today and I was telling somebody that I was interviewing today's guest. And I said, you know, when I actually think about it, I think it may be the most. Maybe the most honest and vulnerable show in the drug use and drug policy space crack down is that good?
And the host is Garth Mullins, who is here with me with me today. Garth, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You know, before we actually talk about the work and the show, I like to understand people's stories, not just because I'm a storyteller myself, but also because we deal with the topic and that is drug use, drug policy, you know, addiction, all that kind of stuff that you don't wake up and decide to get into that.
It's not, uh, oh, you know, I think I'll study this so help my listeners understand what was it, why does, why is this these topics so important? Oh, I mean, cause I lived them, you know, like I'm an old school, dope fiend. Like I used a heroin and opioids and a rock and everything for, you know, a decade and a half and been on methadone, uh, more so more recently, but uh, you know, like I'm a drug war survivor.
So, um, you know, I just tried to walk away. I tried to say all, just get clean and put, you know, shut the door to this part of my life. But all my friends in my community are dying and it feels like a war zone. And so on. Like, you can't walk away, you gotta fight. So yeah, that's what I do. That's why I wasn't an intellectual interest.
It's it's in my. It's literally in my bloodstream, like the opioid molecules, uh, that are circulating right now that I drank from the methadone this morning are part of the fight. That's a. And for those who don't know the show, uh, you know, Garth is not in the United States. Uh, so, so a little bit, it's a little different up in Canada.
Uh, but unfortunately a lot of the, the suffering and the pain is all too real. Yeah, for sure. Um, I'm in Vancouver, Canada, and, uh, I actually, uh, was a black tar heroin user in the Tenderloin in San Francisco for a time. But, um, now I can't get into the states because I have a criminal record and you guys don't want.
Uh, so too bad for you, but, uh, Canada and the us have a lot in common. We both have conducted a mean Rudel drug war for over a hundred years. Um, the texture of ours is a little bit different. Uh, In moments was actually meaner. Um, but also more recently, we like to talk about it in a classically Canadian way.
Like we aren't so rude and nasty. We pour maple syrup all over the bitterness and hard truths and racism so that they are easier to swallow. And we put please, and thank you and I'm sorry, around all the nasty words. Uh, but we essentially have the same drug war that, that you all do in the state. With a few little bells and whistles of politeness, you know?
Um, so I, I thank you for that because I've learned so much about Canada's war on drugs from your show. You know, most of my own, uh, knowledge is about the United States and in the U S has impact on the world. Your show has been so interesting to me learning about how it is I'm in Canada. And I appreciate that.
So thank you. But it's to further help her understanding here, you know, you did a, there was a really great episode where you talked about San Francisco a lot, but help us understand where your story started when it came to drug use. I mean, I was just a fucked up kid. Like everybody, you know, um, some bad things happen to me.
I kinda got alienated from my family in the world and, um, through just drinking and working my way through all the drugs possible. Uh, I was figuring out that you could manage this, uh, terrible feeling of, of alienation and, and really the, the feeling of not wanting to be on the earth like that sort of deep, um, I dunno, like suicidal feeling.
And when I hit heroin, I was just like, ah, this is perfect. This just shuts off all the howling ghosts that are constantly in my head. This just turns the switch off. And I feel, I feel good and normal. And so, I mean, I, I. Credit heroine to fucking up my life, but also save my life. You know, like, I don't know if I would've made it, uh, had it not been for the rest bite and the sanctuary and the stability in the home that I found in heroin, the, the warm embrace that heroin gave me that I wasn't getting from anywhere else.
I just, I, I think I wouldn't have. So, I, I really can't be, um, to do judgy about that, you know, and I, I so appreciate that point. You know, we, we had a, uh, guest on here last season who are new, you know, you knew his work or know his work well. Uh, and that was David poses who talked a lot about, and rest in peace.
I'll tell you what, man. I, um, I didn't know him well, I mean, we were friendly, uh, he was on this show. I obviously admired the hell out of his work. Uh, but his, his depth is it's been really tough, um, because man, what an incredible advocate and what a fighter, but David did such a great job in this show, talking about the thing that people don't understand was that he is like the, depending on which study, you read 40 to 60% of people who don't respond well to, um, you know, traditional treatment for mental health issues.
And to him, heroin was the best treatment he ever found until it wasn't. And, and I think that, that story, isn't one, we hear, you know, we hear only the horrible stories of heroin. We don't hear people like you and David saying, you know, I'll be honest. The heroin made me live. It made me comfortable in my own skin.
And what made heroin so bad for David and me was the fact that it's illegal. Right? So it made it hard to get, you could drive yourself like you make yourself broke, trying to find it. Um, you know, for me, like, you know, you kind of commit petty crimes and stuff and. And also the stigma separates you off from like your family and the rest of society, and maybe you get evicted or fired, uh, and you got to be secret of it, but the actual molecule, if it was freed from all of that bullshit, all of that social organization, the actual molecule of heroin itself, if not for all that, I don't think I would have had all those problems.
And maybe David wouldn't be. You know, and as, as a guy that I really look up to Carl Hart likes to say, and definitely did a lot in his recent book, you know, heroin is still used in many places around the world, in a medicinal treatment. Uh, and, and, and, you know, we have this idea right now with fentanyl, obviously on the street, it can be a little scary.
But if you go tell, you know, your surgeon, next time you're in the hospital, you don't want fentanyl. They're probably going to roll their eyes at you. And that's not something we kind of a mental gymnastics that a lot of people really aren't willing to do. I mean the most dangerous thing about heroin, the most dangerous thing about fentanyl, the most dangerous thing about rock and math, all of it is that it's illegal, right?
Like if these things were of known potency known constituents, like the pharmaceutical versions taken where you have full knowledge of what's going on, um, you'd be. Right. Like at, at the corner store, they'll sell you a carton of smokes. That is a lethal amount of nicotine in it. And if you took all that nicotine all at once, you wouldn't be in a very good state, but you know, what's in it.
You know? I mean, this is a, and probably smokes are more dangerous than a lot of the things I just mentioned, but that's the problem. The most dangerous thing about drugs is that they're like, Well put so, so on your story, you know, you were using it for awhile. It, when, when did it become a thing that you were aware of like, oh, this is no longer, or this is becoming a pro.
Ah, geez. You know, I think I just, um, you know, I woke up one night, uh, uh, probably like, uh, camped out somewhere. Uh, and I was like, got the restless legs and didn't feel good. And I was just like, sort of dumb kid and I'm like, oh, Oh, yeah, this is, this is withdrawal. This is what they, this is what they warn you about.
Right? And so then the, the good feeling that you get with heroin becomes combined with this need to get it, uh, so that you don't get dope. And I think that was happened pretty young. And then you've just, you're sort of really on this cycle of, uh, trying to make money to get dope. So you're not dope sick, but also, so that you're not back in that ghost howling place where you hate yourself and you want oblivion from the planet, you know, so let's, I always feel so bad about this, but as someone who does, who, you know, lived through withdrawals for long time with a mine was benzodiazepines.
You know, I think a lot of that's even worse, man. It's awful. Seriously. Yeah. Mine was Klonopin and it was awful. But I think a lot of people don't really understand, you know, I I'm putting out a show pretty soon here. By the time this drops it'll be out where, where the, the, the, the subject of the show really talks about how much he hates when people say, oh, it's just a bad flu.
And she's like, yeah, go fuck yourself. It's not a bad flu. What was that like for you in, in, in, in those withdrawal symptoms? I mean, you definitely have all the symptoms of a bad flu, and I don't mean like a cold where you have to sniffle and you don't feel good. I mean like influenza, like a really bad influence of that, that regularly kills a lot of people or, or really worse than that.
So you have all of the, um, the symptoms like. Your you feel cold and hot and shaky and sweaty and anxious and nervous and twitchy. And you're throwing up out of both holes and you're just like a wreck. But then on top of that, there's this, uh, Whatever you, whatever heroin was keeping bottled up is out, out, whatever the opioids were keeping bottle up is out.
And I always think about that scene from Raiders of the lost Ark. You remember Indiana Jones and trying to get the arc of the covenant at the end of the movie, the Nazis capture it from them and they set it all up and then they opened the lid. And what comes out of the Ark of the covenant is not the 10 commandments, but a bunch of ghosts that go and melt everybody's face.
And so that's what. Face melting, fucking ghosts. Right. And you've been working to keep the lid on box shut and using heroin to keep it shut. And now the ghosts are flying around and melting your face. And like that is not the flu. That is something worse. But on top of it, on top of that, you have all the worst symptoms.
All at once, not like a series of them, but just like gradually increasing and increasing. And you know, if you just are feeling that and just the profound feeling that you want to die, or at least it happened, that's what happened for me. And then at the end of it, I kind of figured the English language doesn't have the right vocabulary to really describe the deep hell of dope sickness.
Like, I mean, maybe we need to get a dig up Dante and get him wired and then get him dope, sick. And he can go right. The, the seven rings of hell of dope sickness or whatever the Inferno of it or something. But I just, I don't think I'm enough of a poet to really describe it properly. That was, I don't know, man, that was a really beautifully painted scene.
Horrible, but a beautiful Indiana Jones. The Dante that's a good, good cultural references in there. And everyone listening should have really go find dope sick because I'm sorry, crack down, because this is the sort of beautiful imagery that a lot of your episodes contain, but you know, staying on your story.
When, what did getting help eventually look like for you? And it, it, you know, I'm guessing here, but how many times did you attempt that? Um, you know, like various girlfriends through the years told me to go to 12 step because that's what was available. And that's what we were told. And I was like not being a good partner because I was like hiding, um, my, my drug use from my partners or, or like grinding them for money to pay for dope all the time or, or being just like, you know, like not being, uh, Like not being someone you can really plan the future with effectively.
Um, and so, yeah, I went along to 12 step programs and. You know, I had to recognize that I was powerless and then I had to do this and that and make a moral inventory, a sir, a fear fearing fearless and searching moral inventory of my moral defects and failures. You know, so I was told like, basically I am a broken, morally defective human being.
And I think I internalized a lot of that stuff, you know, like for, so for most of my life I considered that I was fucked up and broken and that drug use was. Part of my, or a symptom of my brokenness. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, that didn't work for me. Like I tried to make it work, but I never really advanced very far on the key chain color spectrum.
You know, you get these key tab, key fobs or whatever that are like different colors, depending on how many clean days you have. And I got a lot of them. I still have them that are the white ones that say just for today, which they always tell you, this is the most important ones. The person who comes from.
It has no clean time or has like an hour of clean time from the meetings or whatever. Uh, so I went in and out of that a little bit, and that, to me, wasted years of my life and damaged, uh, damaged my ideas. And eventually I tried to get on a methadone program. I had trouble doing that. So I like most people just bought methadone off the street and tried to organize my own rapid tapers and stuff.
And, oh, I've tried to get on the methadone, got rejected, eventually got on the methadone program. And after years, years, and years and years, I was doing mostly just methadone. But you know, for a long time I was doing methadone and heroin and other stuff, but it did give me stability that, um, the bottom wouldn't fall out of my life.
Like methadone kept me from being dope, sick, and that was huge. Right. It didn't solve all my problems. Didn't replace all the drugs, but at least it allowed me to like have a stable job and go to work and start paying off my debts and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, I mean, I can't, I can't claim to be this a hundred percent methadone only kind of person, but it was really the principle of substituting an illegal opioid molecule heroin with illegal opioid molecule methadone.
It was the key to me having stability in my life. And so I think that principle, everybody should get it and it shouldn't just apply to the methadone molecule. It should be. Heroin and fentanyl, like those are really effective replacements, foreign, you know, like pharmaceutical grade heroin is a great replacement for street heroin, the same with fentanyl and all that.
And that principal can give a lot of people back their life. Man. There's so many different directions. I could take that. Sorry. Oh, this is wonderful, actually. So let me ask you a question because I don't know the answer. You know, here in the, in the us, obviously one of the things that advocates are fighting for is a easier access to a mat across the board.
I mean, you could pick any of them. We need easier access. What is that like in Canada? This is kind of off the, where I was going with this, but I'm really curious. What is that the same? Do we need to fight for that in case. Yeah. I mean, they still, they still, um, call you in a, to, to most, for the most part, they still ask people to come in every day and, and drink the juice under the witness of, uh, some professional.
And, uh, they still piss test you to see about your compliance and all that stuff. So it's still. Part way between punishment and medical assistance, you know, it's still a, you're still treated with suspicion and everything. Um, unlike in the us, you don't have to line up outside of the clinic in the morning, uh, rain or shine or some states I should say.
Uh, so there are, there have been improvements. Um, but the reason, at least in British Columbia, where I live is because we've had a group, uh, you know, like a drug use. Advocacy group called the Vancouver area network of drug users that has been fighting in these systems for improvements in reforms for the last 25 years.
So to the extent to which we've found and won some small reforms is because we've just like just chipped away at it and chipped away at it. But we have a long. Well, before we launched fully into your work and in that really interesting work, let's pause. And if you wouldn't mind shouting out where people can find you online, find the show, all that kind of stuff, anywhere you get podcasts, uh, were there, you know, iTunes or Spotify or whatnot, um, you can listen to it on our website, which is cracked down on pod.com.
Follow us on Twitter at crackdown pod. Uh, you can follow me at Garth Mullins. That's probably the easiest way to see what we're doing and, um, If you feel so inclined, uh, patrion.com/crackdown pod. If you've been following the show for a while, you know, I'm a huge fan of road runner CBD. I use all of their products.
Seriously. I run through a tub of their muscle gel every couple of weeks to come. 30 isn't everything hurts that our bomb is perfect for keeping my skin smooth and healthy, and I mix their CBD flower with every joint I roll to give my high that perfect equilibrium I'm always looking for. So to change your life with Roadrunner CBD products, go to Roadrunner cbd.com/ref/cys.
Again, that's Roadrunner cbd.com/ref RA. Slash C Y S and use the code CYS at checkout for 10% off. Trust me, they're going to want to try this out. Check them out tonight. Find us on social media. Check the link in your show notes or search for Jay Schiffman and choose your struggle on any social media platform.
You know, before we continue, I will say I, I am sure I will have said this on the intro when I record that for this show, but I am a Patrion supporter. Oh, thank you so much. Fuck. Thanks very much. Hey, like that's, that's very cool. Like I, like, I do not take that for granted at all. That is a big deal. When somebody says, Hey, I'm going to give you a few dollars from my major meager income to help you do the thing.
Um, we really, we really mean it and we take that money and we, we go use it for investigating. Um, so that we can best ammo at the government who's causing this problem, then we, that we absolutely can. So thank you very much. You're welcome. And as a fellow, you know, Patrion guy, I mean, this show is also partly supported by that.
I, I echo that. I think it's super important years. I will say. I think you could be charging more. My friend, I think that the work you're doing, you. You can give as much as you want. Please give as much as you want. I thought I was limited by your platform, but I'll have to go back and check that out. No, no, you're not, not at all.
You can choose your amount and if it looks, I'm going to go look at that thing and fix it. If it looks like we're, so we don't charge for anything, you can listen to the show for free anything we do, you can get for free. So it's, it's like we just, if you want to support us, you also can, and I'll make sure the platform.
Make it look like you can only give a couple bucks or something. It also could be user error. I'll, I'll admit, I, I, as, as, even though I'm a guy who does this work online all the time, I'm not the most proficient with it. So, uh, it could be that, but you, me, both brother. So let's actually talk a little bit about that because, uh, you know, I, I said I've, I've actually shared crack down all the time and, and, uh, the listeners who I've already listened to made it, um, by the time this comes out, know that one of the ads on there is for Garth and crackdown.
Uh, and you know, one of the things I said in that and that I, which I recorded myself was that every episode I ended up sharing it with someone because I'm like, this is a point you need to hear. And you had one, a couple months. This would have been by the time this comes out a couple of months ago, where.
Accurately and just in such a beautiful way called out elected officials for empty words. And as you said, no one has resigned. Nobody has lost their jobs with these overdoses. I was sitting in a parking lot, listening to this. I couldn't drive away because I had tears in my eyes. Listening to you talk about this.
Where did this advocacy come from? Garth? Where, where did from your own experience? When did you decide, you know what? This is what I wanna do. I feel like I'm just a born, um, activist, like, uh, I'm, uh, I'm blind. So that has made me have to figure out a different way to engage with the world. Right? Like I, I have to fight to understand visual information.
Um, and I guess that's made me forgive the pun, but see things a little differently. And, um, I also have been in the labor movement. You know, I worked in a mine when I was young. I know that sounds nuts to be blind and working in the mine, but I do have some eyesight. They just, they call it blind it's to it's a continuum, but, uh, it was a non-union shop and people got injured there.
And I realized that like, almost any venue that you're in. You got to organize what the other people were affected and fight for a better deal and that no one ever gives that to you. You always have to extract it from like the boss, the employer that maybe the school that you're going to the government, whatever.
And that the whole history of the world is people organizing themselves like that. And the whole history of everything good. Going back to just the existence of the weekend is because people fought for that. Like the labor movement in the U S. Fought for an eight hour day thought for a weekend, you know, labor movement all over the world.
And I realized that, um, the fight of drug users to just be treated with dignity and stay alive is not really so much different from the fights from marginalized people everywhere. And that we can benefit from knowing and sharing the strategies and tactics that have won for other movements. All through my life.
I've been an activist, I've been an organizer, but it took me until the middle of my life to finally get over my own shame and stigma to fight for myself and my own people, my own, you know, fellow drug users. But like, I just, I was so, so full of shame for this. I just really veered away. And it's only been in the last, uh, five or 10 years, I guess, um, that I've, I've really understood better.
Um, That I can be part of a fight and I can be open about it. I learned from other activists in the drug user movement, how to talk like this, like how to say, yeah, I'm an old school, dope fiend and not to be ashamed of it or not to qualify it or not to say, oh, I'm working on recovering or whatever. Just like, I'm just like, this is, this is who I am fucking deal with it.
You know, like I learned that from these activists. So like I've always been an activist, but also this activism has probably greatly saved my. And the last part is like, I'm an old school punk rocker, you know, like I've played in crappy little bands and we've always had to do it ourselves and make our own gigs and make our own scenes and record our own records and stuff.
And, and so this, this sort of approach comes really naturally, man, that was really well put, I, I loved the part about stigma because this is something I say a lot is that there's two dates for people in recovery. There's the time we enter recovery and the time we. Open locally started talking about it, uh, because it's so, and it took me five years, uh, to, to, to do so.
And then once you do, it's very freeing and I don't think it's that surprising that so many of us then turn to advocacy because we feel like why was I keeping this silent? And there shouldn't be no one else should feel that shame that I felt. And to me, it's I felt a lot of survivor's guilt. Like that, that maybe I'd gotten to a point where I.
Felt like I wasn't going to die. You know, I have lived through two officially declared overdose, crisises, the first big wave of the aids pandemic. Uh, like I survived these things and I don't want to leave people behind, but I also understand that, um, I have this great luxury to be able to talk like this because I have housing and an income that cannot be fucked with, by my, uh, my admitting that I'm.
Or can't be easily fucked with it, you know? Um, I don't want that to be a challenge to somebody out there, but like, uh, like I think that a lot of people are secretive about their drug use for really good reasons or their past drug use for really good reasons because their family might ostracize them.
They might get fired, they might get evicted. And, and so I, I think, you know, I know Carl Hart calls on everyone to come out of the closet in a minute, but I think if it's safe, like if you can find. Uh, way to do it where it's okay. And if you can't, if you're listening to this right now and you're like, oh, damn I can't.
I understand. And I am I am you because most of my life, the vast majority of my life, I was secretive about this stuff and for my own protection. And I understand that, and that is completely legit, like fucking more power to you. It's hard to survive on your own, but like with that secret, but sometimes you need to do it and that's.
I can feel you. I know your secret. I know who you are. I know your secret. I echo that I had so much and, and, you know, I, I also, I liked that addendum to Carl's words because as a white guy with, with privilege, getting a second chance in a world where most people don't get their first. That's why I feel motivated to do this work.
And if you don't check a lot of those boxes and you don't feel safe to do it, I just completely understand and say that I, I, I don't, I don't understand that. I don't understand. I guess it would be a good way to put it. Oh, fuck it. Ain't. I mean, in Canada, people are still, you know, the state will still come and seize your.
And also people who are parents, um, probably want to keep quiet about that because especially if you're indigenous or black, right? Like that, they'll the really target you, but it's just, that's a sorry, sirens. Are they coming for you? No, they're not coming for me, but it's a very common sound around here because, uh, I think ambulance actually, because just the rate of overdoses, I never do an interview where there's not sirens at some point.
So it's just like, it's, it's extremely common here. I'm sorry to hear that. So, okay. So then going off of that, sort of both of those topics, what made you then say, you know what? I have this platform or this ability? I have a voice. I want to use it and start the show. And I think part of it was that, um, you know, I've learned audio and radio skills a long time ago.
You know, I did community radio. Um, I did sound for some of my own gigs, a little bit of recording for my own bands and stuff, uh, that I had a union job at work. So I couldn't, I couldn't easily be fired just because, uh, it would be known that I was a drug user and I thought, you know, I have some skills and I have some protections.
Um, And this could be my contribution. Like I was in a world of activism of people who are taking real risks and really standing up for our community and for our survival. And this could be my contribution, right? Like th there's a drug war, this is our side, this is our army, and I need to be a foot soldier in it.
And here's where I can apply my. You know, we all have, we all have different skills and different contributions to make. And I had learned a great deal from, you know, from, from a lot of the people that I've been a fellow activist with. And, and so the first thing I do for crack down is recruit them to be on the editorial board.
So like the, the editorial board of my podcast, the people who. Tell us, uh, here's the topics to cover. Here's the positions we need to take on stuff. Here's the concerns we have. Like those people are the people I learned how to do this activism from, you know, the people who fought and won for the first safe injection site in north America in sight here in Vancouver, that's D Wilson, uh, like Laura shaver and Sharia.
One who is now deceased rip shirt. They taught me how to talk, uh, like proudly about, um, being a drug user, like my oldest friend, Jeff Loudon, who is the bullshit detector of the show. Who's just like, this doesn't seem right. This person seeds, dodgy, this guy's front and blah, blah, blah. Like, you know what I mean?
He's just like, he knows the world in a way. So, so deep and true that it's just like, he's always been. A great source of advice and a great friend. So what, like these people, I just wanted to make this thing with, you know, so like that's, uh, uh, that's why I gathered around that is not the question you just asked at all.
Uh, but it was a beautiful answer because, uh, as a, as a regular listener, it is one of the most. Uh, thorough shows that I listened to. I mean, you can tell that a lot of work goes into it. Uh, and, and, you know, you, I will say you do mention a lot of these people every episode and give them shout outs. So I don't think anyone listening who listens to your show, won't be surprised that you took a moment to do that.
Um, so let's talk about the, that, that last episode. I know you've had one since I've not listened yet, but, uh, that one called resign. Yes. You were doing a couple different, really important things in that episode. And I think that was such a perfect encapsulation of you, the show and also the community that you're a part of, you were both doing an outreach event and trying to fight in the political sense at the same time.
Yeah, it's this, uh, episode resign is the story of February the ninth, 2022, just one day and two different kinds of responses to. The crisis. So on this day, the coroner was announcing the death statistics for the previous year, which were huge and put British Columbia in sort of the top world, which were record breaking for us would, were worse than the year before, which was worse than the year or so.
There were kind of two different responses to the. The statistics, there was the government's response, which was to hold a press conference and say, oh, this is very sad. Um, we're very sad. Our hearts are heavy, but we're trying our best. And we really we're really doing good. And, and you should really like us.
That's what the minister said. Who's is kinda like the, the head of that part of the government. And that's what we call them here and in the UK. And. And then the activists, um, myself included with what's called the drug user liberation front gave away tested, clean heroin, uh, meth and Coke, and just gave it to, uh, the membership of our movement.
Um, and we did that because we wanted to show here's how you actually stop these statistics from getting worse. Here's how you stop the overdose crisis overnight. You don't try to drag people into something. Recovery scheme that if it even works is going to take years and years and lots of relapses, we don't have time for that.
Right. This shit's going to kill you this afternoon. So we need solutions for this afternoon, not five years or 12 steps or whatever down the road. Right. And I, and that's great that that works for people, but most people don't get a chance. You don't recover if you're dead. Right. So, uh, we gave away. You know, th this, these, uh, sourced, uh, clean, tested drugs, you know, w we ran through a mass spectrometer all out to make sure there was no fentinol or no, uh, you know, like rat poison or detergent or any other cut in there and then gave them out.
And, um, You know, it was a symbolic action to show. This is what's possible. People will do these drugs and not overdose and not die because people are overdosing and dying because they don't know the potency and the contents of their drugs. The potency of the contents of these drugs was known. And the solution is simple because all of those drugs, pharmaceutical versions already.
It's just the paperwork that stops us from getting them. So we want to show the government, this is how you do it. And so those two events happened on the same day and we took the microphones to both. Um, my senior producer, Sam Fen, went to the press conference and tried to ask a question on behalf of the movement.
And our question was don't you think you should resign from the government? Uh, Madam minister, because so many people have died on your wall. Um, but of course they didn't call on Sam because they get to choose who speaks, um, and who asks questions. And then I went to the, um, you know, I was part of the drug giveaway as a, as a member of the drug user liberation front.
And I went down there with my microphone and just, uh, taped it all and they lined up like everybody else and, you know, got my heroin and, uh, it was a good day. And it, and it made for an incredible episode. Um, you know, I, I thank you very much. Yeah. It was the one, like I was saying, I was sitting, I was listening while I was at the grocery store and I was sitting in my, my parked car in the parking lot afterwards.
Because I couldn't drive away because I was tearing up at the way you ended the show. Uh, and it was so heartfelt, uh, that your work, um, and, and it's one that I I'll link it in the show notes. And obviously I'll link the show as I do with every time I interview someone, but I definitely recommend to everybody, they go check out specifically the episode resign.
Uh, and I thank you very much. I really appreciate that. You know, it's like we, we have a production schedule, you know, we plan out long way in advance, the kind of things we're going to do. We start the research, we look for the, everything, you know, we tape scenes. Sometimes it takes like six months or a year before we land.
Cause these are all, each one's like a documentary. Right. But that week we were just like, Ugh, Let's just put out something where we're where our true anger and sorrow just like bleeds all over the place. Like, let's just let it be messy. And so like, when I was doing the recording, uh, of the drug giveaway, I didn't have all my proper gear.
There's a taping on the iPhone. You know what I mean? We're just like, let's shove something out that really captures our feelings right now as a community. I really appreciate your feedback on that. Thanks very much. Definitely a man. Well, we could talk about this for a long time. I am cognizant of your time, uh, before we get into the final questions, if you wouldn't mind, one more time, shouting out where people can find you online, find the show and all that.
I'm on Twitter at Garth Mullins. Uh, the show is also on Twitter at crackdown pod. You can listen to us wherever you get podcasts, and also from our website, which is crackdown pod.com. And you can support us on patrion.com/crackdown pod. And I will say I did check real quick. It was user error. You can obviously give more for, for their Patrion.
That was my mistake. Please give whatever you can, but you can also have the show for free if you. Yes, and same, same echo for my show. That is exactly how I feel as well. If you want to support. Thank you. Uh, but please don't feel like you have to. So we always finished with the same two questions. The first of which is, you know, this show partly does cover mental health.
So what are your self-care habits? Yeah, somebody asked me this the other day, right? They said, what do you do for self care? And like, I'm, I'm old school. We didn't use to have all of the nice mental health vocabulary, you know, like, uh, Like my, my niece, uh, she, she can speak like in great sentences to describe her feelings, you know?
And, and so this stuff is, comes later to me. So self-care is just like, I used to just use heroin to take care of myself. Uh, so I don't do that as much anymore. And so I found that like, I really enjoyed just having a smoke, just going out and having a smoke and like being by myself. And relaxing and just letting all the stress and whatever chaos was going on.
Just all fade away. I could just, I could even imagine like exhaling out the chaos, uh, but I quit smoking. So God damn it. What do I do? I play music. I play music. I play guitar and sing and I've been in a little crappy bands. My band now called low dead space. We're fucking great, man. We're like a little bit of Jawbreaker, a little radio had a lot of old school punk and it just feels really good to get in a room with, uh, with some friends and make some noise or play a little show.
And I really love that. And that's, that's what I do for mental health is music. It just, it feels great. You know, can we, can we find a recording of your current band or any of the old ones anywhere you can find? Uh, lots of it on my SoundCloud, uh, Garth Mullins. Whatever SoundCloud is. I can't remember soundcloud.com/garth Mullins.
I'll like a bunch of old recordings and old radio documentaries all in there. I'll find it and make sure to link that in the show notes of the show. The last question we always finished with is, uh, you kind of already did this, but we've now spent almost 40 minutes hearing why you're amazing why we need to be following your work, but shout out some people that you admire that we should all be following in that are doing work, that, that you truly think is.
Um, it's heart rate because a lot of the work that I really, I really respect is done in the community. So it's a little difficult to follow some of it, but Eris, Nicks and Jeremy , um, who are organizers with the drug user liberation front are fantastic activists that I was talking about. Those drugs giveaways earlier.
There are the people who took the risks to go find that stuff and it's illegal. Right? You can get arrested for that. They took the risks. They've just pushed through and done this direct action, the civil disobedience, which is like, you know, I was saying earlier how we got the weekend, how civil rights move forward.
It's how we got safe injection sites. You know, it's like breaking the law, breaking unjust laws, uh, to get the. That's like a long tradition and that's what they're doing. And I just have like infinite respect for that. Um, and Livingston is an activist who's been, uh, uh, she's not, she says she's not a drugs or herself, but she's been an activist to help organize drug user groups all over British Columbia for the last 30 years.
Just an incredible person taught me how to be, uh, you know, like an effective at running a meeting and all that stuff to be effective at like, uh, Just the mechanics of building a group. Um, she's really great. Uh, let's see. Zoe Dodd in Toronto, Ontario is a fantastic like drug user and drug user drug use, uh, policy, uh, person like, and, and, and anarchist and like just, um, you know, excellent, smart, smart person really worth following, uh, on.
And a lot of these people are on Twitter. Um, Yeah. I think also some of the people who really inspired me are no longer with us. Uh, Tracy Morrison was the president of the Western Aboriginal harm reduction society. And Wade Crawford was my friend. And in, um, some of the groups that I'm in, they're both deceased, but they made the connections between.
Um, the drug user movement and, and colonization, you know, like colonization, ruining the lives of indigenous people and trying to erase, um, indigenous nationhood on north America. What connecting those dots. So those movements understand their relationship to each other really important. Uh, Tanya again, Abba is, um, with black lives matter Vancouver and also the defund 6 0 4 network, which, um, they organized to help us all come together to demand police accountability, and to reduce police budgets in Vancouver.
Uh, which have balloon recently, they're a great person to follow. Uh, Gabrielle Peters is, uh, a disabled activist who is making the links between, um, all kinds of different struggles. Um, the disability community, disability movement, and drug user movement. Like she reached out and really. And helped me understand a lot about my own, um, like location as a disabled person, and really like finding these people in your own neck of the woods is important because we are living in the apocalypse, right.
There are going to be, and have been a lot of deaths from climate change. Like 500 people died in a week long heat dome here in Vancouver last year, a lot of people have died from the pandemic. From, you know, policy and avoidable reasons like, um, government's not insisting that people take measures and workplaces.
A lot of, lot of, lot of people have died in the drug war. Um, a lot of people have died in the ongoing efforts of colonization, you know, missing and murdered indigenous women is a big problem in Canada. And so there's all these deaths, we're all targeted by government in different ways, and we're all being killed and.
We find each other and push back to there. That is the beauty of social movement organizing. And that's what saves the world. And that's what will we'll save the world if it's to be saved by the way. So like, those are examples of people from different struggles. Who've inspired me, who I get to work with.
Find the ones that are in your town and work with them. We all have a lot. Beautifully put, thank you for that. Some people, some people, you know, have a name or two, so I really appreciate how much you leaned into that. God, that was very, uh, very heartfelt. Thank you. And thank you for all of your work for the show, which is incredible.
And for being here today, I really appreciate. Jamie. Thanks so much. Thanks for taking such an interest in knowing the, like the details of our show and our lives here a little bit, like, I sometimes think, like why do people in the us care what's going on in a Canadian city? And then, and then kind of when I back up a little bit, I realize.
Y Vancouver is like a warning to people all over the world. Vancouver is this place where the drug war here started in like 1908. It started years before the U S drug war. We got fentinol here years before it was a problem from everywhere else. We now have benzos, which is kind of a cousin of tranq dope and all even worse, even more deadly forms.
And so the, the things that are happening in Vancouver, and we started getting that kind of dope by the way in 2019. So the things that happened here. To wind up happening in other places. It's like a long story that I don't totally understand of why, but we're like a bellwether. We're like a warning to everybody else.
If you don't take measures, the shit that's happening to us is going to happen to you some work. If it hasn't already well, then please keep on reporting on at Garth. We need you to let us know what's coming down. Thanks, Jay, thank you for supporting the show here at choose your struggle. We rely on all of y'all to help us end stigma and promote honest and fact-based education around mental health, substance misuse, and recovery and drug use and policy.
And there are so many ways to engage with our work from our podcast to our storytelling event, to bring me in, to speak to your company, your school or your organization. You can also support us on Patrion for as little as $3 and 40 cents a month. And we're so appreciative. This work is grueling at times and your support goes a long way to helping us keep going.
So fineness of choose your struggle.com and find me@jayschiffman.com. And thank you. Thank you for being a part of the choose your struggle family. Choose your struggle, Susan.
If you're liking the show, please consider leaving us a review. If you're listening on apple, you can leave a review right on your player for everybody else. Check out the link in the show notes. All right. Y'all uh, we've come to the end. Uh, I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Garth. I, I, you know, I just, I, I hope that the work that he's doing inspires you, if you, if you need that extra layer, go listen to the episode that we talked about resign.
It's in the show notes. I truly think it is one of the better episodes of a podcast that I've ever heard. The inspiration I got from it was just astounding. And right now I think we all need to hear this kind of stuff. You know, I love that episode because it, it points out the hypocrisy in. And, and to put it in perspective, the amount of overdoses that Garth and his team were fighting and protesting over, it was a fraction of what's going on in the U S so, you know, the, you just, the fact that we keep.
The N the, the, the rate for incumbents who are reelected is over 90%. And if you're looking at the government and saying, yep, they're doing a bang up job, man, do we have different, different definitions of success, but why do we keep voting for these people? Why do we keep allowing the parties to, to point the finger at the other one and be like, well, at least I'm not them.
And it's like, yeah, but you're also not getting. I don't know, there's no Carter, a good egg this week. I'm not in the mood for it. Uh, you're good egg is the, do something, do something, do something. Choose your struggle.