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Beyond the Startup features Atlanta-area business owners and leaders sharing their entrepreneurial journeys. We explore how businesses get started, the challenges of growth, and the lessons learned along the way.
Lliam: Even at significant
expense to yourself, they
might be really painful, right?
Mean it, it's not like we can
just write a check and move on.
This might actually be, Hey,
we've got a decision to make.
We can make this right,
or we can make payroll.
How do you react to that?
Right?
Are you, are you gonna make it right?
Andy: If you don't have the reputation
doing that work well and you, you're,
you're introduced to somebody new,
especially coming from another region.
Good luck trying to land that business
because I'll give, give him the
pro best price, but they haven't
seen your work and seen you do it.
They're, they're very uncomfortable.
Lliam: Welcome to Beyond the Startup.
My name is Lliam Holmes.
I'm with MIS Solutions and today we have
Andy Cheatham, who is part of the fire
sprinkler, uh, system, and he is here to
talk to us a little bit about his journey.
Which has extended now over 34 years
with a company called Advantage Fire.
And so Andy, welcome.
Andy: Thank you.
I'm glad we're here today.
Lliam: Uh, with that, Andy, why don't
you tell us a little bit about Advantage
Fire and when you started and how you
got started, and maybe even why you
started with the company to begin with.
Andy: Well, Advantage Fire is a full
service fire protection organization.
We started in the spring of 1992.
I worked for a company
called Selasco Corporation.
I Stone Mountain, and it's
kind of cut my teeth there.
Uh, six of the six and a half years
I was in management, so I got a
pretty good head start there on that.
And then we started with four
people in the spring of 92
and we were up to about 175.
Now that equates to about 80
vehicles on the road, which is always
interesting in Atlanta, Georgia.
And, uh, that's, that's.
That's the macro look at it.
Lliam: All right, cool.
And I'm really curious, what
made you wanna start a business?
Why didn't you just go work for someone
Because it, it'd been a lot easier.
Andy: Well, and for me, uh, one of
the reasons I got an engineering
degree at Clemson, I went back
night school and got an MBA is I
wanted a diversified education.
'cause I wanted to have my own business.
I didn't know the timing.
I didn't know how it would work out.
That was something I always had
in the back of my mind, even
when I was in college, when I
was getting my bachelor's degree.
So it, it was a desire I always had.
Lliam: Was it, if you kind of think
back to 1992, was there an event, was
there a thing that happened that you're
like, now's the time, today's the day.
Like what, what, what, what
pushed you over the edge?
Andy: The company that I worked
for our college in the fall
of 91, filed for bankrupts.
Lliam: Okay.
Andy: And they.
Talked big about it being the
reorganization form of bankruptcy.
'cause they were, they had intentions
of coming out the other side.
Well, you know, anything about
commercial construction, it's not the
easiest type of organization to bring
out the other side of a bankruptcy.
And sure enough, we stayed, I stayed on
purpose for five or six months 'cause I
wanted the education of the bankruptcy.
I wanted to see what, how bad it got.
Lliam: Okay.
Andy: And then finally it got
bad enough where we had to go.
'cause it started hurting
our personal reputations.
Yeah.
The things we had to do to stay there.
So that's what it really,
we got kicked out into.
We either had to get a
job or start a company.
Lliam: Yeah.
Andy: Start a company.
Lliam: So I, you know, so many people
I talked to, something happens,
they get fired, they get laid
off, bankrupt, something happens
and, and they end up without job.
And just like you, right?
You, you have two choices.
I'm either gonna use that as an
opportunity to go and start my own thing,
or I'm gonna go put my resume together.
I'm gonna start another,
you know, another position.
Position somewhere.
Right.
And so it sounded like to you,
like this was the, the motivation,
this was the opportunity.
And in your case it sounded
al almost sounds like you were
waiting for that opportunity.
Right.
Andy: No doubt.
And my, my eventual business
partner, I had unknowingly hired,
uh, 15 months before the bankruptcy.
And, uh, he, I had, I just was doing
a guy, I was doing a, we already
had an employee at the old company
that got me to interview him.
And, uh, I had no idea whether
he grew up poor or rich or
whatever you wanna call it.
And, uh, turns out he
grew up pretty well off.
His dad was able to provide us with
the amount of ca it wasn't a lot
of capital, but a lot of people,
it was an amount of money that most
people don't have sitting around.
Lliam: Okay.
Andy: So, so the the, the access
to that capital helped too
because it, it, it's difficult.
I can't speak for other businesses,
but in commercial construction, they
don't pay you very fast, but it takes
a little capital to get started.
Lliam: So he kinda acted as the
bank, he, the bank kind of floating
you some money to get started.
Andy: That's exactly.
Real quick, funny story about two, three
years later that IRS knocked on our doors
and, uh, where'd does capital come from?
Because, you know, most people don't
have that kind of money sitting around.
And, and once they came
in, we had audited.
They found out real quick thought, had a
little bit of money, so they left us long.
Lliam: Okay, that's, that's fair.
And so if you think back day one,
week one, month one, year one.
Right.
How did you actually get started?
Right?
Did you, did you, did you
go out and rent a building?
Did, did, did the people
just work from our house?
Did you just show up at
Waffle House on a Tuesday?
Like, like think back, like how
did you actually get started?
Andy: We had a company at the time
that was more of our clients and it
was called RACO General Contractors.
They're not near as prevalent
now as they were back then, even
earlier in that, but anyway.
They had an office park in Gwinnett
County called Gwinnett 316 and
they leased industrial space.
And I called Nancy 'cause I knew
she was the leasing agent for RACO.
And I told her we eliminated a little
bit to start out and we, we, we, we
actually leased 4,000 square feet in 2000.
That was warehouse in
2000, that was office.
And we started with four employees and by
the end of the first month we had nine.
Then the, this is important.
This was one of our
first biggest decisions.
The company that we left, I thought
they'd make it longer than they did.
Lliam: Hmm.
Andy: But the bank locked their doors
four months to the day after we left.
We left on April 4th.
On August 4th.
SunTrust bolted the door to Selasco.
And the, the problem with that is we
didn't have enough work yet to hire.
There were still eight or 10 people over
there that we wanted on our payroll.
Lliam: Ah, and
Andy: we didn't have the work to support
'em, so we had to make a decision
whether to take those people on because
once you let, they let them go to the
marketplace, it's gonna cost you two,
$3 an hour more to give 'em back.
So we bit the bullet and took 'em on.
So we went from four to nine to 18 in,
in, in about a hundred days, and that was
a big bite 'cause what helped us there.
One more thing I'll say.
Selasco still had a certain
amount of work going on.
We assumed those jobs
because Selasco was gone.
So we took over those jobs and that kind
of bridged us over on payroll with, with
the nine new employees we brought on.
Lliam: Selasco was okay
with you taking this?
I mean, I guess they, they had to
be 'cause they were gone, right?
Andy: No, they were outta business.
Lliam: And so you guys, you guys
just took over or picked up way
they left off just, just maybe
the smaller scale on size, right?
Andy: Yes.
Lliam: Right.
Well that was probably really
helpful 'cause you know,
the number one thing I hear.
Is, you know, hey, I can do the
thing, whatever thing is, but
gosh, how do I get new customers?
How do we, do we, do I
need to hire a sales guy?
Do I, you know, I'm not really good at
going to networking events and finding
people, you know, and customers.
And so a lot of, a lot of what I hear from
entrepreneurs that are either thinking
about starting up or that just started is
they're, they're really worried about that
revenue and, and trying to figure out how
they're gonna get, you know, that first.
Customer, maybe the first
couple of customers.
Right.
Andy: And, and, and the one thing
that helped us, of the four people
that we started with, I was really
the only, for lack of a better
term, administrative personnel.
Well, personnel.
The only was gonna do that full time.
The other three guys
were sales estimators.
Doug Mitchell had a, had a lot of
clients in the industrial marketplace.
Reed Ingle had a lot of customers
in other parts of new construction.
Dalton, my partner had all my
old customers from tenant finish.
So I would encourage people
start where you salespeople.
'cause they're the ones
that feed everybody else.
Lliam: So that's a good question.
So there were four of you, you
had a back office guy and you had
three sales guys Who did the work?
Andy: Well we we, the next week we
hired Johnny Cody, Kirk Johnson.
Steve Nicks, they were our
first three field guys.
'cause we did, you know, when you
start you don't have any work and
then you sell something, you go, oh,
oh my God, who's gonna put it in?
So we, yeah.
That's why we started
hiring the field guy.
So the, the only other non-field
person we hired, Lliam knows Becky
who still works for us 34 years later.
She was our first support person.
We hired her three weeks that we,
we handled the phones and all for a
whole three weeks before we got tired
of that and we hired Becky again.
She still is, but everybody else
we hired from then on was basically
field personnel to support what
the three salesmen were selling.
Lliam: Cool.
So if you think back 34 years
ago, how longer it's been, and you
think about those early days and
you kind of put yourself in that
mindset and you kind of reflect on
that back from where you are today.
What is maybe one or two things
you wished that you'd even known
or maybe had done done different?
Andy: I think when you're in that space,
uh, and you're only 4,000 feet, it was,
you know, it, it, it, you, you got so
much on your plate day to day that you
spend your energy getting through that
day, that week and that month, and you,
you lose, kinda lose sight of future and
where you're headed and you don't realize
the growth potential that you have.
It's, it's more than you think.
And we should have realized that when
Selasco closed up, they left a lot of
work out there on the streets of Atlanta.
That we, we could've even gotten
more of it if I, if we would've
been more aggressive at the time.
So we, we, we didn't, we wanted to grow.
We didn't necessarily wanted
grow fast, but we could.
We, we could've been a little more
open-minded to the future of that.
Lliam: So maybe there was, at least in
your case, there was an opportunity.
That you feel like you, you, you
weren't able to fully take advantage of.
Not because you couldn't have, but you
just didn't maybe have enough vision
because you were so busy running a
day to day in your business that you
would literally walk like past it.
Andy: No.
And you, you, in the back of your
mind, you like, do I have the
capital to go to the next level and
the next level and the next level
because it's expensive to grow up.
I don't where no matter,
even at 34 years old, it.
It still costs money to grow.
It takes capital.
Lliam: Yeah.
And a and a lot of people,
you know, you've heard this
too, I'm, I'm sure, right?
A lot of people grow themselves Right.
In the bankruptcy.
Right.
Andy: No doubt about it.
Lliam: And so it is that balance
between, you know, how are we growing
effectively and efficiently while not
overstretching ourselves to a point
where we can't afford to pay our bills?
Andy: And that, that, that's
a, that's a a day in, day out,
weekend, week out, shot and call.
You gotta make payroll that week,
but there's a future coming.
Lliam: No doubt.
No doubt.
And so if you kind of take that, you
fast forward a couple years, I think
you guys started to do things a little
bit different now in full transparent,
in full transparency, uh, to everybody.
Gosh, Andy, I've known at
least more than two decades.
Right?
And, and so it's fair to say like.
We've met, right?
Like we're friends.
Like we know what's up, right?
And, and so I've got to
witness some of that journey.
And you know, we were much
smaller than you guys.
And so you guys have always been one
of those companies that we looked up
to and we're like, we're not there yet,
but just like you did when you were
at Selasco, we were like, let's learn
the lessons that we can because one
day we're gonna have their problems.
Let's see how they handle
it as they go through it.
Andy: Right?
Lliam: And so I kind of think through
that and, and I'm thinking, you know,
as you guys kind of move forward a
couple of years into your business,
one of the things that you did is
you went back and you got your MBA.
I can tell you that that's probably
something I wish I had done right?
I, I, I didn't, I was like, you, right?
I was, I, I was so busy running
the day-to-day serving customers.
Developing products, trying to position
our company, trying to, trying to get
new clients, trying to make payroll.
Right.
I, I was so busy in the day to day
that I never really thought about,
you know, going back to school and,
and getting education as a CEO, right?
Not as an engineer because.
All of my time and effort was always spent
about being best engineering and, and
providing those solutions to our customer.
But, but you didn't, you went back
to school and you got your MBA
and I think, you know, one of the
conversations you and I had was if you
look across all of your competitors,
no one else at any other
company had an MBA.
Right?
And so I think starting right from that
decision.
You guys started to be
a different company.
I, I'd love for you to kind of share
your thoughts and insights about like,
what, what made you think to go do that?
Andy: For me personally, it was diversity
in my education professionally, it opens
up your mind about what the possibilities
are and, and I'll use, uh, the IT space
as an example when you're growing.
We used a lot of mom and pop.
It support people.
When we were, the three and a half
years, we were in Lawrenceville when
we built our own building out in Dacula
and moved out there when we were three
and a half years old, because we were
on top of each other in Lawrenceville.
The, the guy we hired at the time,
he was, he was a, a lone ranger too.
He, he put, he actually, we had two
roll around carts in Lawrenceville,
the PCs on that we bought at a
store that's not even in existence.
Uh, he, he actually put a, a what was
called a LAN system in back when we moved.
We, we moved in that, that facility
in dec, December 1st of 95.
And we thought we'd hit the
mothership 'cause we had
computers that we interconnected.
We'd have to roll around carts anymore.
And boy we found out the more we
tried to stay with the, the mom and
pops in Dacula and the growth of
the company, it was not working out.
And that's where MIS.
We interviewed, we had an office manager
at the time named Tammy Hook, and she
interviewed, uh, MIS in June of 2004.
So we'd been with MIS for 22 years now,
and we want, MIS had what we needed
at the time, and that was support
people that worked around the clock.
It wasn't just one guy that if
he was on vacation, you good luck
getting your system up and running.
So.
I tell that story to say, as you're
growing you, as much as you think you
wanna hold on to your vendors, especially
your overhead vendors, you gotta move on.
You, you got to move to the next level, or
your company won't move to the next level.
Lliam: Yeah.
And that's sometimes hard to do, right?
'cause you're very loyal to the people
who got you there and it's very difficult
to say, Hey, you know, it's time for
me to let you go and, and I gotta.
I gotta step up because
we gotta step up, right?
That's not a, that's
not an easy thing to do.
And I think to your point, a lot of people
hang on maybe a little bit too long.
Andy: And what happens there,
Lliam, is, you know, we, we call
it the brother law syndrome.
Lliam: Mm.
Andy: Whether it's your brother-in-law
or not, you, you, like, you owe that
mom and pop Bender because he, he helped
you get started, but in effect, he
doesn't have the vision that you've had.
He's not adding people, he is not
adding what you need for resources.
Y'all were in a, y'all were small
at the time, but you had the
resources to do what we needed to do.
Lliam: Yeah.
Well that's, that's
probably a, a great lesson.
Right.
And I think, you know, another thing that,
that to me really set you guys apart,
and it's certainly something that I paid
attention to over the last 20 something
years for you guys, is that you guys never
Andy: wanted to be
Lliam: a me too player.
And by that what I mean is.
In whatever industry you're in, in
whatever thing that you're doing.
There are lots of people
all doing it the same way.
They all do the same thing.
They're all competing
for the same customers.
They're all charging the the
same amounts of money, right?
Because essentially they're
just cogged in the wheel, right?
You've got this guy and that guy and they
both either do the same thing, or at least
they say they do the same thing, right?
And, and so it really becomes a commodity.
But I think that.
One of the things that we learned
with, you know, working at Advantage is
that you guys didn't play that thing.
You guys went the other way.
Right?
You guys went the way of saying, we're
specialists, we're unique, we're gonna
carve out our own niche, and whether
it's true or not, we believe that
people will pay for our expertise.
Right.
And, and I, I'd love to hear a
little bit about your decision,
like why did you do that?
And, and if you think back on that
decision, how has it helped you?
Andy: We always, were trying to be,
there's always between 30 and 45 fire
protection companies and run around
the city of Atlanta and I've seen
a ton of 'em come and a ton of them
go and, uh, we, we were as good as
anybody doing spec office building.
To finish, build out
things everybody else did.
But then we made a conscious decision
in the early two thousands to get into
medical kinda work, whether it was
medical office buildings, hospital
wings, they're more difficult to do
because the, the density of all of the
things that are in the ceiling that you
never see, whether it's gas lines to a
doctor's office, whatever it is, a lot
of people don't wanna be in that space.
So that was the first
space that we really.
A lot of people don't wanna be in.
It's, it's just complicated to deal with.
And over time and where we are now, and
this started probably about a decade
ago, and in and around the region
that we live in here in Atlanta, data
centers have become big time resources
for all the IT cloud, AI, all the stuff
that the, the world's looking for now.
We, we just happened to work for a
general contractor, Brasfield, Gorrie.
They got neck deep in the data
centers, ride the chute, and we've
been riding, we've hung on, rode
those coattails as much as we can.
And we've done, we've actually
done several data centers for other
contractors, so we feel like we, if we're
not the best data center, fire protection,
contracting, in Atlanta, we're close,
Lliam: you're close, right?
And so that really has kind of.
Put you, put you in your own niche.
Right?
You know that old saying, right?
There's riches and niches, right?
And, and, and you really think about it.
See, and, and, and you think about that,
that story you just shared about, you
know, the, these medical buildings, right?
I always feel like, you know, there's
not only riches and niches, right?
If you find that certain vertical
and you really become that
expert at serving that vertical.
But I think too, that.
Any business, whatever it may be, there's
always work that people don't wanna do.
Andy: Right.
Lliam: It's not, it's not glamorous, it's
dirty, it's sweaty, it's it, I don't know.
There's something about it
that the people don't wanna do.
It's too basic.
Whatever.
It's Right.
And so I think that in your example of
that, that medical facilities, right.
These were complicated because
there were explosive gas in
the, in the, in the ceiling.
It was really cramped in there.
It probably, you know, was
a little bit more difficult.
I, I'm assuming the liability
of working on a job like that
was a lot more than working on a
warehouse or something like that.
Right.
And so you're like, Hey, I'm gonna
go into this high risk environment
that's not comfortable that,
you know, it's, it's hard to get
what we gotta get done because.
That ceiling is just packed
with all kinds of stuff, right?
And so these had their own challenges.
And you're like, not only are we gonna
do it, not only are we going to embrace
it, but we're gonna get good at doing it.
Right.
And I think that when you kind of think
about it in those terms, all of a sudden
what it did was you took something that
everyone else hated to do and you're
like, and we're gonna specialize in that.
We're good at doing it.
And you became known.
For doing that thing.
Andy: Right?
Lliam: And, and so I think that that's
a great example all the way through
to, you know, what you guys are
doing today with data centers, right?
Um, data centers are, are
probably a, a great parallel
at, at a different scale, right?
But data centers are really complicated.
These, these data centers have
hundreds of millions of dollars
of equipment in it, right?
And, and, and you guys
make one mistake or you.
Do something wrong.
It's, there's a lot of
liability involved in that.
And I think that, you know, when
people are like, Hey, I can go do
this warehouse over here, or I can
go do this data center over here.
Now this data center's gonna feed me
really good, but my goodness, if I make
a mistake, we're gonna be bankrupt.
And so this warehouse starts to
look really, really attractive.
Right.
And I think, to me, it
kind of talks about.
Risk.
And from my own experiences,
and I'm sure from yours, I never
talked to an entrepreneur that at
some point throughout their entire
history of owning that company
hasn't taken some major risks, right?
Things that they're like, if
we can do this right, it's
gonna get us to the next level.
If we do this wrong, we might not survive.
Right?
And so.
You've gotta have you, you've gotta have
a little bit of vision, a little bit of
faith in what you're doing to be able to,
uh, put everything on the line like that.
Can you share maybe a couple of
times or thoughts where, where
you guys had had to really kind
of put it on the line like that?
Andy: We, the fir one of the first
data centers we did was, uh, west of
town here in Atlanta in an organization
called QTS that does this for a living.
For those of y'all who do not know
what a data center is, it's basically
a warehouse full of computer servers.
That's what it is.
And you can imagine the people that
invest in these data centers, they
don't like, the main form of fire
protection that we're in is water-based.
Well, water's don't mix
well with computers.
So that said, the first line of
defense in the data center is
what we call a nitrogen system.
So when you introduce gas fire protection,
that ahead of water, what nitrogen does
is eliminate the oxygen in the space
and that kills the fire and you don't
get, it keeps the water off the servers.
So that's the first line of defense.
The second line of defense is a
sophisticated, what we call dry system.
It's called ion system.
So the water, even though the pipes
are above the servers, they're dry,
they don't have any water in 'em,
they're, they're cut off at the valves.
Now if a sprinkler head goes off,
the water comes through the valve
and puts the fire out, if the
nitrogen system doesn't get it done.
So you have, those are all levels of risk
where a lot of people, they just don't
have the ability to put all those systems
in and more importantly, put 'em together
and, and that's what makes fire protection
safety in a, in a data center work.
Lliam: Yeah.
You know, I think through that.
And I'll think about the education
that you, I mean, you guys didn't
just show up on Tuesday and you'd
be like, Hey, got a great idea.
Right?
You guys probably had to put some
thought and some effort into that.
And I know that probably through the,
the, the 34 years that you guys have
been in business, one of the things that
has been really important is developing
relationships with vendors, right?
Because.
These guys are in some sense your
past or present and your future.
Andy: Yes.
Lliam: And share a little bit about,
you know, your, your vendor process
and what you guys did and, and how
maybe they helped you or hurt you,
or, you know, what would you tell
someone else, you know, when they're
thinking about or looking at their
vendors, how could they be successful?
Andy: I think what you
have to be careful with.
We, we have never had
our own fabrication shop.
That's a big deal for.
That's a major decision for a
fire protection company to make
our, our platform company that
that owns us now has always had
their own fire fabrication shop.
And I say that to say that a lot of our
other vendors come through that fab shop.
And I'll give you an example.
There's a mechanical coupling company
called Victaulic and that that now
that brand's known pretty well in
mechanical circles of any kind.
And one thing, Victaulic's
not is the cheapest.
They, they, they have the best
product, but they're not the cheapest.
And, uh, we've just always made
a conscious decision to use it.
'cause whatever, whatever corner you
cut to buy a cheaper couple, it's
gonna cost you down the road, but
it's gonna leak somewhere somehow.
So those kind of decisions, if you're
gonna be a quality company, it's one thing
to say it, it's another thing to do it.
And if you have to bite
the bullet and pay.
Vendor like that, a little
more money to make sure you
have quality on all your jobs.
It just, it, it helps a lot when
what we call all buts and go backs.
We cut some all of that out.
Lliam: Yeah.
Do you feel like that,
I think all of us would like to be able
to provide the very best products, right?
The, the, the primo.
Because in every industry
there's always a vendor that
makes the best.
Right.
And, and I think all of us wanna
have really great, you know,
products and services, right?
And so you go out and you, you research
who's the best and you, you start
buying from these vendors that make the
best of whatever it is that they do.
Do you find that that makes you
uncompetitive though, in terms of pricing?
Andy: I don't think so.
And I'll give you a good
contemporary example.
There was a company the middle
of last year that came out of
Texas and they were gonna put a
data center in Dalton, Georgia.
You all familiar with Georgia's geography?
That's in northwest,
far northwest Georgia.
And somehow they came to town and
asked who knew how to do well,
who were the, who was the best
fire protection for data center.
And here we go.
Now we're the vendor.
And uh, so they call us and they want
price from us and sure, up we got the job.
So a lot of that, if you
become, whether you're using the
vendor or you are the vendor.
If you don't have the reputation of
doing that work well and you, you're,
you're introduced to somebody new,
especially coming from another region,
good luck trying to land that business.
'cause I don't give a, give
'em the pro best price.
If they haven't seen your work
and seen you do it, they're,
they're very uncomfortable.
There's a new person.
Lliam: So I think what I hear you saying
is, for the customer you have today,
it may cost you a little bit more.
Now you're gonna have a quality product.
But I think you have to understand
that part of what you're buying in
that transaction is reputation, right?
And that reputation is gonna
extend into your future.
And it's going to to, to build a brand
that allows other people to recognize
and they're gonna wanna be part of it.
Andy: And I, I highly doubt
we were the low price for the
company coming from Texas.
I, I, I doubt we were, I don't
know that for a fact, but they.
They have a product and we're,
we're a floor of their insurance
because we're the fire protection.
So they're not, they're not gonna pay
double, but they're not, they're not
against paying a little bit of a premium
to make sure they get a quality product.
Lliam: Sure.
What do you think is maybe one of
the most painful lessons that you
learned over the last 34 years?
Andy: I'll tell you one.
We learned when we were still in
Lawrenceville back in the day, this
was probably year two or three.
And as I said earlier, we, we, we
leased in an industrial park anyway,
and uh, there was a warehouse going
in about a mile behind our, where
our office was, and it happened
to be a refrigerated warehouse.
If you're not familiar with that, that's
a little bit different deal because if
you do refrigerators and freezers, they're
either at freezing, but maybe 40 degrees.
But if it's a freezer,
obviously it's one 30 degrees.
Anyway.
They have special designs.
There's, because of the piping and
the heads all, and we, we had taken on
a new designer I won't get into that
part, but he, he, he supposedly knew
what he was doing and, uh, supposedly
a design level four, but for whatever
reason, we didn't design it well,
we installed that design and before
that building ever got opened up.
Good.
We got called on the carpet.
Again, we were, I don't even think we were
three years old and we, we ate a hundred
thousand dollars to make that right.
It Wow.
A hundred thousand dollars.
We didn't have, now that
wouldn't be a big deal Today.
Nobody wants to eat a hundred thousand.
Yeah,
Lliam: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy: We could eat a lot better today.
We could be.
And uh, but if you, again, if you're
gonna be the quality player in the,
in the, in the environment, you
sometimes you gotta bite the bullet.
Lliam: Yeah.
You know, I think that you really
bring up two interesting points.
One is, being a great company does not
mean you don't make mistakes, right?
Let's be honest.
We are.
All of us, we're companies full of
people, full of human beings and you
know, we're not trying to make mistakes,
but sometimes things happen, right?
And, and I think that, you
know, in that story that you're
sharing, it's really about.
How do you react to that, right?
Are you, are you gonna make it right
even at significant expense to yourself?
And sometimes that expense, it
might be really painful, right?
It, it's not like, you
know, it's not like we,
we can just write a check and
move on, this might actually be,
Hey, we've got a decision to make.
We can make this right,
or we can make payroll.
Right.
Some of these decisions might be
really difficult to make, and yet
as an owner you still have to figure
out, you know, how can you do both?
And, and, and that might mean you
need to go to the bank, right?
Or, or, or do something to make it right,
but, but inevitably making it right.
Is really important even at
even its significant expense.
Right.
Andy: One other thing I would say
in this particular instance, even
though RACO was our landlord and
they were obviously leasing this
to the refrigerated uh, company,
they were also a customer of ours.
And had we not handled that, we probably
wouldn't have done much more work for 'em.
And over the years we did a lot of
really good proper work for them.
So sometimes you have to bite
the bullet today to make.
Make it over the bridge to the mark.
Lliam: Hmm.
I think that that's, you know, that's
also a good point and, and I suspect
that you guys learned a little
bit out of that, like we all do.
Alright.
And, and you get better and you move up.
Right.
If you think about your business, you
guys have really gone through this
full arc. Everything from, we started
a business to, we were at the height
of our, you know, of what we did.
All the way now into all those, I
don't wanna say a sunset, but I'm gonna
say it like a next chapter, right?
Where from my viewpoint, you
guys grew a really nice business.
You guys got to the point where
you knew what you were doing.
You had employees who had
stayed with you a long time.
You had.
Policies and procedures, you, you
would develop ways of doing things
like, like you knew your stuff, right?
And just like these prospects
knew your reputation.
I suspect that your competitors did too.
Right?
And you guys started to become
very attractive to them as they're
thinking about either how do they
expand their business or how can they.
Expand their services into
things that, that they don't do.
And you guys kind of went down that
path
of now, you know, partnering
with another company and, and
doing that in a, in a unique way.
I'd love to hear your perspective
and, and how did all that come about?
And, and, you know, how
do you feel about that?
You know, going from, like,
I, I'm the guy, I'm the owner.
I call the shots right to.
Now I'm part of something
that's bigger than me, right?
Because if I look at my own experience,
that would be difficult for me, right?
Because, you know, I, I own MIS I
for right or wrong, for better or
for worse, I made all the decisions.
Right?
And, and so it's, it's kind of
part of your identity, right?
And, and at some point you, you start
to think about, I'm gonna share that
with someone else and I may no longer
be in control of my own destiny.
I'd love to hear your
perspective about that.
Andy: I spoke earlier of my business
partner, Dalton Knox, and when we, we had
been together 27 years at the time, and
he was really getting to a point in his
life for reasons I won't get into that.
He, he was ready to do
something else with his life.
He, he in, he been in fire protection
for over a quarter of century and he was
ready to do other things and so when he
was gonna sell his half out completely.
I knew I was gonna end up
being a, a minority partner.
There was no way around that.
So I wanted to make sure, my goal was
to make sure as you speak of them, our
employees that have been loyal to us
for some of, some of 'em for the whole
time, that they got a good deal too.
So we made a conscious decision to be
bought strategically, not financially.
Uh, so we, we tried to do the best
we could so everybody would win.
And while we're set almost
seven years into that venture
now, everything's not perfect.
Market was perfect before we went
with the other company, but if you're
gonna have a corporate leader, so to
speak, there is, I don't, I don't know
how we could have done any better.
I think.
Almost seven years into it.
I think most of our employees would
say they're, they're happy with
their progression and, and, and
it really helped a lot of things.
Dalton and I never had the capital.
When you, when you run a small to
medium sized business, you just
don't have the kind of capital
that, uh, our two owners have that.
And so it just made, uh, I
feel like it, it's been, it's
been a win-win for everybody.
Lliam: I kind of feel like it's.
The difference between playing high school
football and joining the NFL, right?
Yeah.
Because you guys went for
how many, you guys had, what?
I don't remember.
80, 80 people.
A hundred people maybe.
Right?
And now you're joining, you, you joined a
company, you had like 1600 people, right?
So it was a big difference, right?
It, you know, you, you like, you
went from, I know everybody and these
people have been here for decades.
They're like.
We're good to, like, now I can't, like,
I don't even know everyone's name.
Right.
And, and, and you're playing
a much bigger ball here.
Andy: Yep.
Lliam: Right.
Exactly.
So that must be, that must
be a, a scary thing to do.
Do you do, do you, I don't wanna say
regret it, but do, do you sometimes
miss when you guys were little and, and,
and, and, you know, you were the guy?
Andy: I do.
I miss.
I missed that part of it, but I'll
speak, uh, I'm starting to age a little
bit and uh, a lot of times you just
don't have maybe quite the drive and
energy you had when you were younger.
And as you, as you grow through
the different stages of business,
a lot of people we've hired over
way taking stuff off of us anyway.
And now that we're going the
organization like we are now,
where I understand, I just heard a
couple weeks ago, I think there's.
20, close to 2200 employees Companywide.
Wow.
So that's a pretty big organization.
Lliam: Oh, it's,
Andy: so we're, we're,
you know, 175 of that.
And, uh, so we're, we're still
in the game, so to speak, but
like you say, entrepreneurially,
you make all the decisions and
you take all the consequences.
And now that's not the case because
still make a lot of decisions,
but they, they're corporate
driven and so most of the arenas,
Lliam: yeah.
You know, they're other
side of that though.
Is, I would guess.
Now I've never been through this, right?
But I would guess that while that's
true, if you think about this from
the employee perspective, if I was
one of those 175 people, right?
Their opportunities for their
growth and their careers has
probably skyrocketed, right?
They have opportunities to do
things today that maybe they
didn't have the opportunity,
and I'm actually thinking about.
One of your people who in a joint
advantage, they were relatively new,
that meaning that they weren't one of
these folks who'd been with you for a
few decades, but she was able to get
in, understand Advantage, add some value
to advantage, but because Advantage
is now, you know, part of this larger
company, that larger company looked
at her and said, we like what we see.
We value the talents that we have, and
we think that we have a, a bigger, better
place for her right than, than just being
part of these 175 people and she's gone
on to do bigger, bear better things.
And so, you know, I think the other side
of this, from my perspective, is that
these 175 people now have bigger, brighter
futures all within that same landscape.
Maybe, what they had before?
Andy: I think that's very true.
I think one thing that drove the
situation that you're speaking of,
we kept our accounting software
the first three years of our now
ongoing seven year relationship.
And so she at that take her time because
we were still running our accounting,
I Winder, she had a full-time job.
And then as we switched over to Century's
accounting system, which was Microsoft.
Uh, the hub of accounting
now is done in Duluth.
We, we don't, we don't.
Lliam: Hmm.
Andy: All we do is AR
and MP under our roadmap.
So she had really lost a lot of hours
about supporting our original software and
so forth, and, and our platform company
had already started using her on that.
When they would acquire a company,
she would be the troubleshooter
going in to change 'em over, so
she had made herself valuable.
Uh, with, with, with the downtime
she had from not having the support
our original software mm-hmm.
With just Sage.
And I'm really glad, uh, I hope she, you
know, that happened a couple of months
ago and, and I think she's, I think
she's, I don't think she like leaving
advantage, but she likes the challenge
because she needs to be challenged.
Yeah.
Lliam: Yeah.
And I think that that's really great.
Right.
And so as I try and land the
plane here, if you were to
give three pieces of advice.
Think about your, your entire
34 years history, right?
What would you tell that guy who is
just thinking about starting a company?
What would you tell that guy who's
in the middle of running his company
and he feels like maybe he's alone
or maybe the burden of, of running
that company is, is heavy, right?
We, we've all been there.
And you think about that guy who's
maybe a little older and he's thinking
about partnering with somebody, maybe
selling his company and retiring.
What one piece of advice would you give
to to each of the three of those people?
Andy: Well, the first thing, the
first piece of advice I would
give is the younger you are,
.
I think you're overestimating
the amount of risk you're taking.
I think.
Now when you're, you're where
Lliam and I were one day, it
seemed that risk seems very high.
But now that I'm on this side looking
back, I, I, there's always risk, you know,
on any decision in life, but I say take
the leap as young as you possibly can.
Build your company as fast as you can.
Make as many mistakes as you can.
The faster you make the mistakes, the
more you learn how to do it right.
And I would say sell that company as
fast as you can, as long as you feel
like you're getting value for it.
And the reason I would say that is
you then you can, you're young enough
where you can, maybe you can feel
like what, maybe it's something you
really wanna do when you grow up.
And uh, I think, I think the faster you
go through those cycles, the better.
That was the first part.
What was the, was your,
Lliam: and so this now, so this's the
guy who's just starting out, right?
Or maybe thinking about, you know, doing
company Now there's that guy who's in
the middle of his career, like, you
know, and, and you and I know, right?
Like being a CEO is an
incredibly responsible position.
There's, there's not a lot of people
you can turn to unless you have
a relationship with another CEO.
You could say, Hey man,
here's, here's where I'm at.
What do you think?
Right.
But there's not, I mean, you're it, right?
And so when you're thinking about
that guy, what, what, what that
one piece of advice that you get.
Andy: The one, the one piece of advice
I would say in the middle is you always
want to do the right thing because
you want your professional reputation
in the company to be of character.
But.
As you build, in our case, when you
have hundred 75 people, you have to
have strong middle management in it.
And so as they were being groomed, like
we there, I have a half dozen people
that still answer to me now, and as they
were being groomed as middle management,
I more and more I consciously what
answer their question with a question
and the importance of that is when
I ask, answer their question with a
question, then, then they'll answer it.
And they'll, they tend to answer
it the way they know you wanna hear
it, and that's what they, that they
learn to do it on their own and that,
that was important in the middle.
Yeah.
Lliam: And I can certainly
identify with that, right?
When you're the guy with all the
answers, it's a lot easier for people
to come and ask you because they get,
it's like instant gratification, right?
I have a question.
I ask Andy.
I walk away.
Problem solve.
There there was, there was no angst.
In me having to figure that out.
But at some point when I go and I talk to
Andy and I know before I even get there,
he's about to gimme some homework or he
is about to go send me on a goose, but
I'm not walking away with the answer.
Right.
I think what it does is it forces
you to stretch and grow and not
only, I think does it by, by you
time as a, as a CEO, and I think it
actually helped develop your people.
Where one day they truly
can operate without you.
Right.
And I think that that, at least
in my journey, that has been
transport transformational.
Andy: No doubt.
Lliam: Right?
Because let's be honest, there's
one of me and one of you, right?
And so you have to have some way to
push some of this down when people
can own certain parts of the distance.
Alright?
And for me, if I could just add
onto this from my own experience.
I think peer groups are
really important, right?
Getting involved in a Vistage or, or
whatever might be around for whatever
vertical you're in, being around
like-minded people that are going through
the same journey and the same struggles
that you are, it's comforting to know
that like if I have a problem, I have
a relationship, I have a friend that
I could call or, or talk to, or, or
sometimes maybe I think I'm just fine.
Me sitting around that conference
room table and listening to
everyone else's problems, it gives
me insights into, into things that
I hadn't even thought about yet.
Right.
And, and so I think having a peer
group is, is really important.
Andy: No doubt.
Lliam: And then if we kind of
move forward to that guy who is.
Had his, had his, you know, business
for a long time, he's thinking about
exiting or selling or partnering or
whatever it is he want, wants to do.
I think that particularly when that
company has become part of your
identity, it's who you are, right?
You, you, you are the owner
of Advantage Fire, right?
You, you're the guy or the
man you call the shots.
Andy: Everyone answers to you.
Like, I
Lliam: mean,
it's hard to not say like that.
Doesn't become part of your I get it.
No, no.
Right.
And, and, and I think making
that transition, it's, it's hard
to, to, to come face to face
with I'm not that guy anymore.
Right.
Well, what would you say to that guy?
Andy: I think, uh, I've already shared
this once, so I'll get back into this,
but when Dalton wanted, wanted to move
on and, uh, we, I think a big part of
it is wanna make sure you, you hear.
You hear this trend part of your life is,
there's all kinds of names for it, but
I'll say, take your chips off the table.
That's the way you hear it said, and I
think you can be selfish with that and
just make sure you get the top dollar,
you know, for your efforts of energy
you put in the company over the years.
But I think in our particular case,
we wanted to make sure our employees
moving forward also benefited from it.
And I, and I believe they have now.
One piece of advice I'd give that we did
not do if, if you don't, if depending on
what industry in and what space you're
in, in the economy, if you can't do
that, I have a lot of friends in, in
contract now that have got moved to ESOPs.
Hmm.
And the ESOP is a great way
to share your, the, the wealth
that you've been, uh, blessed to
accumulate with, with your employees.
I just know this 'cause I, I have
friends and, and actually at Vistage
that had gone down the ESOP trail
and they're really happy with their
decision because they felt like that,
that that helped their boys benefit too.
We, we weren't able to do that in our
situation, but I do feel like back
then their lives, if, if anything
had gotten better on a day to day
basis, even if they're, whether
they're answering to me or not.
Lliam: Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
Andy, thank you for coming in and
spending an hour with us and, and sharing
your thoughts, your knowledge, your
experience being so open and transparent.
I really appreciate our friendship and
I really appreciate you really just
coming in and being so open and about
the way you've been and what you've done.
So thank you.
Andy: I appreciate our personal
and professional relationship over
the last two decades, been a lot.
of fun.
Lliam: Thank you.