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Host Stacy Havener brings you the storytelling tips, sales strategies, behavioral secrets, and inspirational stories that help YOU turn your words into dollars. Learn from sales and marketing experts. Meet finance and investment leaders, founders and fund managers who have made it, and the ones on the rise. Because there are people behind the portfolios. Their stories matter. So does yours.
@stacyhavener // www.billiondollarbackstory.com/
[00:00:00] Imagine I'm doing that DJ scrapped the record thing. Welcome to billion dollar backstory podcast rewind. We passed the 50 episode mark and there are some gems at the beginning of our podcast series. So while we're on summer hiatus, we're going billion dollar back backstory with some of our most popular episodes.
[00:00:21] Hope you enjoy. If you want to compete with the bigs, there's a whole bunch of stuff. You're never going to be able to compete with not the teams they build, not the budgets they have, not the army of salespeople, not the PR they can buy or the sponsorships. And you're never going to be able to touch that, but you can go toe to toe with them on thought leadership, but you have to get your thoughts out there.
[00:00:44] I mean, LinkedIn is. It levels the playing field.
[00:00:48] That's a very good point. It does. And somebody once said to me, you know, put your best content out there because often people in your boutiques, I think, well, hang on, I'm going to share my best ideas. Why would I want to share my best ideas? And [00:01:00] people are going to plagiarize them and, and then, yeah, but that's how you get known.
[00:01:05] Hey, my name is Stacy Havener. I'm obsessed with startups, stories, and sales. Storytelling has fueled my success as a female founder in the toughest boys club, Wall Street. I've raised over 8 billion that has led to 30 billion in follow on assets for investment boutiques. You could say against the odds.
[00:01:25] Yeah. understatement. I share stories of the people behind the portfolios while teaching you how to use story to shape outcomes. It's real talk here. Money, authenticity, growth, setbacks, sales and marketing are all topics we discuss. Think of this as the capital raising class. You wish you had in college mixed with happy hour, pull up a seat, grab your notebook and get ready to be inspired and challenged while you learn.
[00:01:56] This is the billion dollar backstory podcast.[00:02:00]
[00:02:03] It takes courage to build an investment boutique, knowing you are fighting against the odds. It also takes courage to build a boutique, then go back to the bigs, then reemerge to build a boutique again. It takes courage and humility and talent and resilience. Today's guest has all of that and more. Meet Sean Pesce.
[00:02:30] Founder and fund manager at Ranmore Funds, a value investing specialist in the UK who does things differently. Okay. Don't roll your eyes. I mean it. This is different. Their philosophy, their approach to value investing, the way they build their team, the way they show up for their clients and their friends, including ones they've met on LinkedIn.
[00:02:58] That's how I met Sean, [00:03:00] and I'm grateful for it. He's a brilliant investor, a kind spirit, a talented writer, and storyteller. That last one really makes me smile since his signature hashtag is numbers, not narrative. Maybe we seem like an odd pair to become friends, but isn't that part of the magic? Real knows real.
[00:03:23] Today's episode is a masterclass in differentiation, branding, and building a boutique. I know you'll love it. Grab your notebook, and let's dive in. Meet my friend, Sean Pesce. Hello, everyone, and Sean Pesce, welcome to the Billion Dollar Backstory podcast studio. It is a pleasure to have you. with us, not only for me, because I'm psyched to learn more about you, but also because we've become friends.
[00:03:56] Thank you, LinkedIn. And I just know [00:04:00] this conversation's gonna be magical. And I'm so excited for all of our listeners to get a chance to be a fly on the wall. So thank you for being here.
[00:04:07] Stacey, thank you so much for the opportunity of being here, and also for all you do for Batiks. You know, we need champions like you out there, and we are the future Black Rocks and of, and vanguards, and so thank you for all supporting us and encouraging us.
[00:04:22] That means the world, because that is my mission. There are a lot of specialists that deserve their turn in the spotlight, and you, my friend, are one of them. So let's dive in. I mean, I always start with my favorite thing, which is, of course, The backstory, your backstory. And what I say to guests is you can go as far back as you want.
[00:04:46] I think what's interesting as listeners, and as, you know, we all like to kind of see ourselves in other people's stories, is the parts of your story that maybe didn't make sense, right? [00:05:00] Like, did you always set out knowing you wanted to be a fund manager, for instance? Like, was that your childhood dream? So I'm going to just kind of set the stage and let you take it where you're inspired to go.
[00:05:10] Yeah, great, Stacey. I mean, you know, I didn't have, Um, a father who was a stockbroker or anything like that. In fact, I remember there was a program in South Africa where I grew up called diagonal streets, and I guess it was a little bit like CNBC or Bloomberg or one of those. And my dad actually, once I was at university and he said to me, do you know what an index is?
[00:05:28] I mean, he had no idea what an index is. He was just a businessman. In marketing. And we used to watch diagonal street a little bit and it was quite interesting. And then, and then when I was at university, he suddenly died, he had a heart attack and died when I was 20 and I had two younger siblings, a sister of 16 and a younger brother of 12 who was epileptic and also suffered from learning disabilities.
[00:05:49] And so my mom received a small insurance pout, but I felt a huge responsibility here in terms of supporting her and what we should do with this insurance payout. And [00:06:00] so we spoke to an advisor and he told us about mutual funds and, and I didn't really know much about them. And then I'd look in the mutual funds and see these companies.
[00:06:08] And I bought the thing called the JSC handbook. And I became increasingly interested as to what was happening here. And I was studying business science at the university of Cape town. And what's interesting is in South Africa, if you want to get into fund management, You need to be a chartered accountant.
[00:06:24] And so that was the root and it kind of makes sense because if we analyzing income statements and cashflow statements, you know, it helps if you've put them together. And so I graduated, I went to Deloitte's, I started an investment club there. I spoke to a couple of stockbrokers and got them to send us our research.
[00:06:43] And, and I loved it. Actually, I really enjoyed my time, my three years at Deloitte's doing articles. And then I left. and joined one of the large life insurers in South Africa, Old Mutual, and the investment style was pretty much GARP, growth at a reasonable price. And the first book I had to read there was [00:07:00] a book by Jim Slater called The Zulu Principle, and that talked about peg ratios.
[00:07:05] And so we, I had a few very good years there. A couple of great calls. And of course, then you think you're a rock star. You think, oh, well, I know the answer like 18 years old or whatever it was, 20, early twenties. I knew what the story was. Okay. I had the magic formula. So we left, we started a hedge fund with a few other guys and that went really well.
[00:07:23] And then I came over to the UK. And of course, while you're doing the hedge fund, you know, you're focused on absolute returns now because everything's monthly performance and all of that and had a rude awakening over here in the UK where we had, we launched a hedge fund, but it was the time of nine 11 and the market was quite volatile.
[00:07:43] And over the next year, we were down 2%. I think the market was down 20. And the seed capital, they wanted their money back. And so it was then that I pretty much left and joined Orbis. And Orbis were, was a fantastic company. And the founder of Orbis [00:08:00] was the late Alan Gray. And he'd worked at Fidelity in the 60s.
[00:08:05] And had gone back to South Africa, set up this company, Alan Gray limited with amazing results and had emigrated from South Africa in the late eighties and established Orbis and Orbis run, you know, Alan Gray runs some 35 billion and I think dollars today and Orbis something similar. So hugely successful and at Orbis.
[00:08:25] I felt that I was going back to school, you know, I had this experience of the hedge fund over here. It was tough and I went back to school and they, you know, fantastic investors, but I felt after five years, I've learned what I was going to learn and I wanted to row my own boat. And that's really when I established Randall with a good friend of mine, Richard Pitt.
[00:08:44] So that's super interesting, because oftentimes, and thank you, well first let me say, thank you for sharing the story about your childhood and your father, and kind of the why, how you ended up here, because I do think that that's something [00:09:00] people in our industry don't often share, and it helps us understand what drives you.
[00:09:06] And even for me, knowing some of the things that you work on now from a charity perspective and things you're involved with, like, I can just see these threats. So thank you for sharing that. The other thing that was interesting to me in your backstory is oftentimes a boutique is started by an individual who has spent their whole career.
[00:09:26] basically working for the bigs, right? They've been working for these big companies. They've been successful. And then they get this itch to be an entrepreneur and sort of tired of working for the man and all the red tape and all that crap. And they want to go set up their own shop. What's interesting in your story.
[00:09:43] And I wonder if we can unpack this a bit is you were actually You kind of went in reverse there for a second, didn't you? Cause you were an entrepreneur. Then you went back to a big, and then you came back out.
[00:09:56] That's right. Stacy. Yeah. Yeah. I, you, you, you are [00:10:00] right. And it was quite a humbling time. You know, I've gone from my, I mean, my first call at the old mutual, the share price went up and we went up nine times.
[00:10:07] Okay. And that was my first call. Everybody thought I was a, you know, as I said, a rock star and then when the hedge fund, it was really good. And then we had a tough time and I sort of went back to school. But I'm very fortunate because at each of those places, I learned a couple of key things. And every time I've worked with some superstars, you know, you kind of take what am I going to learn from that person?
[00:10:27] What am I going to learn from that person? And then you put that together and this is your, you know, quiver full of arrows and you've got an arrow from each. from each place. And so, you know, I learned about charts and technicals when I was involved in the hedge fund. And I've brought that into what we do today, which is quite unique in the area of value investing.
[00:10:47] I mean, some people who tell me, you know, that's like reading the tea leaves. But for me, it's very useful because it helps, it helps me understand or helps us understand supply and demand. And I don't want to sit in the wilderness by myself when nobody else is [00:11:00] interested in something. So yeah, I've been very fortunate in working with some super smart people along the way, fabulous people.
[00:11:05] Many of them are still very, very good friends of mine and it's great.
[00:11:09] I love that. Taking little, you know, golden nuggets from all the places and then making it your own, kind of putting your own spin on it, which I love. And it is a great dovetail to one of my favorite things to work with boutiques on.
[00:11:25] And that is what makes you different. Now, of course, everybody says, you know, they call them competitive advantages or whatnot. I think that When you really get down to what makes you different and unique, it actually isn't so much about competition at that point. It puts you in a place where you complement Managers, even in your own asset class, like if you can really hone in on your uniques and your differentiators, it makes you a fabulous compliment to everyone because it puts you in a category of [00:12:00] one and you teed up something there, a differentiator as a value investor related to the technicals.
[00:12:07] But I'd love for you to talk a little bit about, you know, value investing. So classic, but what do you do that is different?
[00:12:15] Yeah, what we do that is different. I mean, I guess just to take a step back, the one thing that was interesting is my mom's experience and the fact that she had this pot of money to invest really gave me a sense of the importance of our role in society.
[00:12:31] I mean, we are not just chasing benchmarks and all the rest. There are people's lives on the other side of that. And there are people, you know, pensions and insurance policies. And if we mess up because we Uh, buying stuff that's at crazy prices, you know, the ramifications people's lives. So it really did give me a sense of that.
[00:12:50] And I think, you know, at Randall, that's what we want to do. We want to do the right thing for our clients. And of course, everybody says that, yeah, but we make, got to make sensible decisions with their money. [00:13:00] And so what we try and do is just invest like astute business people would invest. And. We've got lots of, um, very high net worth individuals who, and entrepreneurs who are clients of ours.
[00:13:09] And when I sit down and I say, look, I just approach shares that are listed in the same way as you would approach buying a company, you know, out there in the real world. And they go, but doesn't everybody do that? I go, no. No, no, no. Most people, no, no. Asset managers, once they're, I mean, they're not called asset gatherers for no reason.
[00:13:28] Yeah. So they focus on get once they've got the assets, don't lose them. And so how do you not lose them? Well, you try and stick close to the benchmark because that's what everybody focuses on. But I think there's been way too much focus on benchmarks. Clients don't live in benchmarks. Okay. If your benchmark goes down 20 percent and we go down 18%, that's not a People are gonna.
[00:13:49] People's retirements are going to be affected by that. And benchmarks don't only rise. And I think that's what's been forgotten. In recent times with QE, I mean, in the last [00:14:00] 15 years, if the year ended today, in the last 15 years, the S& P 500 will have been up double digits and let's just a little bit of poetic license, nine and a half percent, let's include that as double digits, 11 years out of 15 and only down double digits one.
[00:14:15] And that was last year. So you can imagine that as advisors reporting back to clients in the first quarter this year, about 2022, and it was a horrible experience for most by then, by the time they were reporting back, AI had come and saved the day and the stocks were up. So they could say, look, we had a terrible year last year, but don't worry.
[00:14:32] Things are up this year. So people have not felt pain. Okay. And so we don't care about the benchmark. We invest in sensible assets and buy companies that we think makes sense. And we don't charge performance fees. That's a differentiator. Certainly amongst many of our peers in South Africa, we don't think performance fees in the interests of clients.
[00:14:50] You don't go to the doctor and if they heal, you pay them a performance fee, don't pay a performance fee to an architect. Because the house didn't fall down, you know, we are just, you pay a [00:15:00] fair fee and that's, we think, and it's your money. Why on earth should I take some money? I mean, why should it be an incentive for me?
[00:15:05] You're telling me I'm not going to get up as early. I couldn't work more hours in the day. I don't need more incentives to turn a performance fee. So, and we laser focused on valuation and expected returns. There was an interesting story. A friend of mine is a fund manager and shall remain nameless. And I said to him the other day.
[00:15:24] Some months back, what company do you like? And he told me, he said, it's a great business, wonderful business. I said, yes, but what's got to happen. It's a great business. I agree, but what's got to happen for me to earn a double digit return on investment. And he said, what do you mean? So I said, well, what's it got to earn and what's the exit multiple got to be.
[00:15:41] He said, I don't know. I've never thought about that. And so the thing is there's been such a focus on, is it a wonderful business? It's a wonderful business. Okay. That people haven't said, well, yeah, but can I make a decent return from that placement at this price? Okay. And I think that's the thing. So. You know, some of the other things that make us different is we [00:16:00] leave conviction to convicts.
[00:16:01] You won't hear us say, Oh, I have high conviction because that introduces a bias. And all of a sudden, if I write in the fact sheet, I've got high conviction about this thing and something changes. Now it's tricky for me to change my mind and tell, you know, I've just written about it. I can't possibly sell it.
[00:16:15] I told everybody last month I had conviction. Okay. So we leave conviction to convict. Anything can happen. I've been around long enough, grown up in emerging markets. I know things can come out of nowhere. And because of that, we don't care about turnover. And that also makes us quite different. I think that clients should want high turnover because if you've got high turnover, it means you're getting a fresh portfolio.
[00:16:37] If you buy a buy and hold long term fund that has done well and you're buying after good performance, you buying their portfolio of shares at the highest. What you want is you want to process, and then they're rotating so that when you come in as a new investor, You've got a fresh portfolio of, you know, things that the fund manager thinks are going to do well from here.
[00:16:59] So, [00:17:00] you know, we don't need management. I think it's an inefficient use of time and I'd rather evaluate management by saying, well, this manager joined or the CEO took over in 2018. What is return on assets done since then? Have they gone up? What have they done with margins? Have they made sensible decisions that by, you know, crazy acquisitions at crazy prices, to their panic and You know, succumb to pressure and buy at the top of the cycle where they're prudent and paid off debt during low interest rate environment rather than ramping up to buy back stock and juice the share options.
[00:17:32] You see, so we evaluate management like that. But what we also do differently is for as value managers, you know, people that this coming back to your question, there's this perception that value managers by these horrible businesses. They're not great. They're like nasty, you know, steel mills and dirty and.
[00:17:49] Nonsense. We all want quality and we all want growth. We just very focused as to how much we pay for them. And so you can look at a company like sketches. I mean, it's an amazing brand. It's [00:18:00] growing. I've yet to meet somebody who only has what he got. He's got a pair of sketches, but only has one pair. And yet this, this company has grown.
[00:18:09] Much faster multiples of the rate over the last 10 years as Nike. I mean, it's hitting new, it's hitting new hires at the moment and how many consumer discretionary stocks are hitting new hires. So there are great businesses that it's the third largest footwear brand in the world. And it's, you know, market cap's billion.
[00:18:27] So here you've got a great, exciting business. But we're not paying too much for paying less than a market multiple. I mean, a substantial discount to market, to be honest. So those are the kinds of things we do differently. Yeah. And it's worked well for us.
[00:18:41] Yes. I love that. And you know, what you did there in some ways was a bit of a master class, which you might not have even realized you were giving because you just naturally went to what makes you different, but that can be very challenging for people.
[00:18:58] to get in touch with. [00:19:00] Because when people say, well, what do you do different? The emphasis is on do. So you're like, well, I do this and I do that. And when really what you did, the masterclass part of this was you said, this is what my peers do. That's column A. And I am going to show you why I do something different than them.
[00:19:20] So it's what I don't do. And that is a really great way. To get to the core of what is unique about your strategy because you said here's what all you know the typical value manager will do and here's what I do not that and here's why I, I do it my way. That was great. So yeah, very, very well done.
[00:19:47] There's also a little gem in there that I want to come back to because you said you don't meet with management. And I smile because I also know being your friend on LinkedIn [00:20:00] that one of your hashtags, probably like your signature hashtag, if there's such a thing is numbers, not narrative, which when I asked you to be on the podcast, I said, just want to make sure we're on the same page because I'm probably the opposite.
[00:20:16] I'm narrative before numbers. So I know we're going to have a good chat about that, but I'm curious. Is that why you don't meet with management? Because you feel like it's just a whole bunch of spin.
[00:20:25] Yeah. I mean, in fact, I can tell you my worst calls have been the ones where I've spoken to management because all of a sudden you get sucked in.
[00:20:34] I mean, really the worst calls I'd rather be totally unbiased. Okay. Imagine you the CEO and now things are falling apart and I go, no, we can't sell Stacy's a great CEO and she's brilliant and a good person. I don't want that. You know, things are falling apart. I'll see it in the numbers and I'm out. And I think that, you know, you've got to understand as well is that management, if you've got the top.
[00:20:55] Of your game as a global leader, you've been pretty good at selling [00:21:00] yourself. Yeah. You've sold yourself all the way through interviews. You've sold yourself in divisions, et cetera. And now you're going to sell yourself to young analysts. And so, you know, I, we look, we read conference school transcripts. So that's how I engage.
[00:21:13] You hear what management has to say. And actually the other thing is also think it's disingenuous because sometimes most often the person you're not speaking, I would speak to management. No, you're speaking to investor relations. Yeah. Okay. That's all right. Yeah. And occasionally you'll get to meet management at a conference.
[00:21:29] But when you're a young analyst, you're in all of these people, I mean, they're the top of the game and you know, they think they know, they'll tell you that they know the future and all of the race. So we just rather be unbiased. We don't like biases and we try and avoid biases in whichever way and keeps us, you know.
[00:21:45] It keeps us on the straight and narrow. So yeah, so the numbers not narrative that is from the perspective of I focus in on the numbers and I'll tell you there's one important point here and it took me a while to realize it. And that is if you attach yourself to the narrative. [00:22:00] Okay, if I attach myself to the numbers, let's talk about the numbers first, and things start falling apart, I can see it.
[00:22:05] Okay. And therefore I can see it there. Revenue starts falling, margins start declining, free cash flow evaporates, debt goes up, whatever. I can see it in the numbers. If I attach myself to the narrative, how do I know when I'm wrong? Because I could have said that wind is going to solve the problem because it's windy and day and night.
[00:22:21] So that's only sunny in the day. It is windier. In winter when we need power for central heating and all of that stuff. So wind is the future, right? So I've now attached myself to the narrative. I'm down 80 percent on those wind stocks in the last two years. You know, let's say you say, well, the narrative is electronic payments to the future.
[00:22:40] Great. And here's this company PayPal. Great. Let's go buy it. I'm down 70 percent on PayPal in the last couple of years. And electronic payments is still a future and wind is still going to play an important role. But how do I know that I'm wrong? Because that's narrative is still in place, but the numbers have changed substantially.
[00:22:54] So by attaching yourself by focusing on the numbers, I know when I'm wrong. And part of [00:23:00] the secret sauce in this, as many of the gurus, look at George Soros and Paul Cheetah Jones and Bruce Kovner and all those guys. Okay. All that talk about is, I mean, what George Soros said, I'm rich because I know when I'm wrong.
[00:23:13] And that is it.
[00:23:17] Are you an investment boutique looking to grow your business and need a little help? If you feel like you're fighting for the spotlight and well, still stuck in the shadows of the bigs, join us in the Boutique Investment Collective, Havener's new membership community dedicated to the specialist in the investment industry.
[00:23:33] In the collective, we'll guide you through the billion dollar blueprint we've used to help boutiques add over 30 billion dollars in AUM. You'll refine your story, focus on your ideal target market, and practice your pitch. You'll rethink your marketing materials, rewrite your emails and refresh your differentiators.
[00:23:50] We'll even help you step up your LinkedIn game and give your profile a makeover. You want to grow your biz. We've got your back. Learn more about the collective, the curriculum, [00:24:00] and the amazing coaches who will help you on your journey. Visit Haven or capital. com slash collective high five. Hope to see you in a coaching session soon.
[00:24:17] And didn't he also say, though, that like he got a pain in his back or something before he would sell stocks?
[00:24:22] Yeah, because it was a sort of subconscious stress. Yeah, totally. You know, it was just in that, yeah.
[00:24:29] But you know, here's why it's funny. So when we were chatting about, you know, coming together on the show, I think what we realized is we're both sort of narrative and numbers.
[00:24:40] It's just, Well, there's 2 different contexts, but also I think we have a different order in how we approach them. What I find interesting and maybe different about the seats that we're in is that you as an investor in businesses, primary goal being, you know, as you said, [00:25:00] Buy great companies, generate a return, have fresh portfolios, all those things.
[00:25:06] That is the way, you know, that is definitely part of it. You could argue there's some narrative probably too, that maybe shows up in technicals, but I don't want to go to like in the weeds cause I don't actually know, that's just a thought, but what's interesting is that investors, allocators. aren't buying numbers the same way you are, even though I think that's the perception.
[00:25:31] And I will say that especially for boutiques and emerging managers, because there probably aren't a lot of numbers for them, To analyze. So now it's almost like being, you know, sort of a VC or a startup investor or something. It's like, look, as an early adopter, am I buying a fund or am I hiring a human?
[00:25:56] And that to me is maybe the difference because in, [00:26:00] and I don't know how that applies as a stock picker. I mean, I could see both sides of that story. However, I think as an allocator, you know, when I'm listening to you, the data for me. is a proof point. It shows me that what I'm believing is right, as opposed to being the leading indicator for me to then understand more, if that makes sense.
[00:26:24] So I'm buying you and your philosophy and that you're different and that I believe it will work and I might be wrong, but that's my starting point. Then when I look at your returns, I go, well, hell yeah. I mean, and it's working. So it's a little different, but maybe I don't know, is it
[00:26:41] no, I think you're absolutely right.
[00:26:42] I mean, I'd always, you know, we'd never people it's interesting because I've sort of this last year have pivoted to focusing on the local market here in the UK. And although I'm based in the UK, I was spending most of my time marketing back in my country. I grew up in South Africa. And that was an error.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] And so now I focused here, you know, I'd always thought that if you generate the numbers, the assets will flow and we've generated the numbers, you know, in the top couple of percent of fund managers, since we started back in 2008. And we've done that without an army of Harvard MBAs. So you can't just rely on the numbers to find you clients.
[00:27:20] You've got to tell your story. And I've been enormously grateful to LinkedIn for allowing me and providing a platform to do that and to. Meet great storytellers like you. I mean, I loved your, your podcast on how to tell a story. And I think that it does resonate now try to do that. And in fact, I wrote a piece on, on one of our chaps, Tim Barney and how he came to join us.
[00:27:42] And it was different. Um, it was very different to what I'd written, but wow. I mean, the comments that I've received and the results being quite overwhelming and how many thousands of impressions at hand and private messages I've received and I'm going. Well, actually just this, I just said, this is who we are.
[00:27:59] And this is [00:28:00] kind of a little story. I wasn't trying, there was no agenda and saying, look at this. It was just, Hey, this is the story. And actually what I try to do there is encourage other employers and encourage, you know, it's a tricky time out there right now for graduates and all the rest and encourage graduates.
[00:28:15] To be resilient and listen to read Tim Barney story and just find out how resilient the sky was, you know, I mean, it was, it's just phenomenal. And so if you're a graduate, don't worry, listen, you're going to get rejected. And you know what? If you start your own business, you're going to get rejected as well.
[00:28:29] And what you you got to take that projection and energize it and say, you know what? It's their loss. Right. Let me go and find my next opportunity because trying to, what's the word, taking that harnessing that power to say, I'm going to just show you, you didn't want to trust me to generate performance.
[00:28:44] You come and watch. Okay. I'll be in a show you in 10 years time. And I do that. And that's actually quite powerful. It's an energizing form of energy. Really.
[00:28:52] I love that. That chip on the shoulder. Don't underestimate it. Somebody with a chip on their shoulder.
[00:28:57] And I wouldn't attempt [00:29:00] that Well, but you know
[00:29:01] it is a little bit right because it like you said it's the idea that look I relate to this Very very much as a female in this business that also didn't go to the fancy schools that also didn't you know?
[00:29:16] Get a degree in economics Like that doesn't mean I can't succeed here And how dare you suggest otherwise, but by the way, if you do, you're just adding fuel to the fire. So it is very inspiring to hear that. And so let's go back to Tembani for a second, because I wanted to bring this up. In the context of what you do differently and you just brought it up, so this is perfect because one of the things that is different qualitatively about you and the team at ran more is your people.
[00:29:50] Now, everyone likes to say that, right? Like, oh, our people, you know, let's do that. Same thing. Like, what do most investment firms look for in their [00:30:00] team? And, you know, you don't do that. What do you do instead? for that.
[00:30:03] I mean, I think there's a sense that if you get the smartest people from the best business schools, okay, they are the guys who are going to produce the best results.
[00:30:13] My experience has been that the smartest people from the best businesses can't believe they ever get things wrong. Okay. They've just succeeded all the way through life. They can't. Believe they get it wrong. Well, the stats are most fun managers. I mean, even if you get 50 percent of your calls wrong, you know, that's probably average.
[00:30:31] And so here you take the smartest people who don't believe they're going to get anything wrong. And actually they're going to get 50 percent wrong. How are they going to cope with that? They're going to struggle. They're going to hunker down and they're going to go forget it. I'm right. Mark, it's wrong.
[00:30:42] And that's where they're going to get crushed. And so we don't think we're the smartest guys on the planet. I'm certainly not the smartest guy on the team. There's good few members of my team who way smarter than me. So we quite humble. Okay. We like to think we humble, but we unbelievably resilient, you know, we are a small firm that didn't capitulate during that [00:31:00] value winter.
[00:31:01] And when we had clients leaving and, you know, shareholders capitulating at the bottom, we said, that's it. We are doing what we think is right. And. That's it. And so we unbelievably resilient and we're going to prove the world. Yeah. We're going to not wrong, but we're going to, yeah. So that, so I just want to find, I mean, this is the other thing Stacy for a small business.
[00:31:20] I want to manage money. I don't want to manage people. So if I don't want to manage people, I've got to have people who have amazing attitude and who are You know, he will just pick up the ball and run because I don't have time to, to manage them. I don't need difficult egos pounding the table saying I deserve a higher bonus or a bigger bonus.
[00:31:37] Those people will not last, but my team know that when we are large and big, they will, you know, they will be extremely, extremely, Well remunerated, but we doing the right things. And, and so how do we, you know, people just find me. I mean, I'm delighted. I've grateful to LinkedIn for Tim Barney. He found me and he didn't send me an email saying, listen, Sean, I want an internship, can I have a job?
[00:31:59] He actually [00:32:00] just happened to like my posts at seven o'clock on a Sunday morning. And a couple of them I could see from the notifications. He was going through my posts. I thought, well, this is. And then I looked him up. He's a student. What's going on here at seven o'clock? That's eight o'clock in South Africa on a Sunday morning.
[00:32:13] He's reading my posts. So I sent him a little note. And then he asked me if I could perhaps just to say thanks to, if, uh, if I could read a report that he'd written and he'd been trying to read, written a report on PayPal. And, you know, it was, it was like a stockbroker's report, he had the logos and he had the porters models, uh, forces and all of that.
[00:32:34] And it was a good effort, but in the opening paragraph, I'd read that he had run out of money. He'd left university and he still was trying to teach him how to help self, how to write these things using LinkedIn. And, uh, so he said, all right, listen, we'll put you through, we'll, you know, settle your outstanding bill at university.
[00:32:52] We'll put you through. You know, the next year university come work for us. I'd never met him. It was all via LinkedIn, just, just by the words and how he'd [00:33:00] written and how humble he was. And whereas I hadn't spoken to him at a zoom meeting, nothing. And I just thought, what's my upside here. What's my downside.
[00:33:07] I'm helping somebody who's key. Okay. Who's just fought the odds and is still in the game. And what's my upside. This could be the best investment I've ever made. I mean, that's just asymmetry, you know, he's just one of our stories and
[00:33:21] so good. Like, I want to just, there's always a moment in a podcast where I want to throw my own mic because the guest says something so amazing.
[00:33:30] That's it for me. That's so good.
[00:33:32] So yeah. So he's graduated first in his family and it's just a joy. I've obviously traveled out to South Africa and since met Tim Barney and he's just the nicest guy. And that's what you want. I think entrepreneurs, you want nice guys who were the great attitude can do and off they go.
[00:33:46] And if you find the right person with the right attitude, and they're willing to learn, I mean, you're onto a winner.
[00:33:52] Absolutely. You know, the other thing that's cool about that story, there's so many cool things about that story, but The [00:34:00] LinkedIn piece, super interesting, you know, I think a lot of people who turn to LinkedIn or sort of decide they want to use LinkedIn do it for business reasons, like, you know, I'm going to find clients there and all that's very true.
[00:34:14] But I have been really surprised. What a powerful tool it is to attract teammates because, you know, you're talking about what matters and your, your posts are so great. And you go through a stock or you tell a story about, you know, something with lots of numbers, of course. And so people get a sense of what.
[00:34:37] You believe in your philosophy and how you show up and if they vibe with that, it's such a natural magnet to attract teammates just as much as it is to attract clients. Don't you think?
[00:34:50] Yeah, I think so, Stacey. It's amazing. And you know, I mean, what you won't see us do is shop from the rooftops. Oh, we've just been awarded, you know, five stars from Morningstar or whatever.
[00:34:59] You know, [00:35:00] we all, we pull out enough of that stuff. And I did, I mean, it serves a few purposes. Actually, the one is. I just thought I'm going to just put my ideas out there. You know, I'm sick and tired of seeing all this other clinical stuff that's been, you know, sanitized really that everybody puts out, but also crystallizes my thoughts.
[00:35:18] It puts our views out there. You actually start engaging. I mean, the nice thing about LinkedIn, I've kind of stopped on Twitter. I used to copy my posts and put them on Twitter and I'll just provide a link. And if you're not on LinkedIn too bad, because the thing is on LinkedIn, what I love about the platform is that people are trying to enhance their professional image.
[00:35:35] So on Twitter, you know, they hide behind a nom de plume and they throw rocks, but it could be a competitor or whatever. And you go, I'm not going to engage with this person. Whereas on, on LinkedIn, you know, you write a piece on I don't know, hedging of natural gas contracts and oil companies. And the next thing you get some guy who was the derivative, you know, experts at a natural gas company sort of correcting you or whatever.
[00:35:58] And I go, well, that's great. I'm [00:36:00] learning. Everybody else is learning. This is a platform we all want. We should all want to enhance ourselves. And so it's a really great platform. And people have said to me, well, why don't you write a blog? You can write a blog and you can charge so much per week. You could do this.
[00:36:12] You make a fortune, you know, thousands of followers. I go, no, forget it. If I'd written a blog, Tim Barney would not be working for us today because he would have been locked up. And I like nothing more than somebody sending me an outgain. Sheesh. I really didn't understand cash flow statements. Now I do.
[00:36:26] Thanks so much. That's great. You know, that's what I want. So yeah. So I think it's a fantastic format forum.
[00:36:33] I do too. And obviously, I mean, we're sort of like high fiving each other here because we're both on it and both fans, but that's okay. Because listen, what you said though is also something that people miss as this turns into like a LinkedIn masterclass now.
[00:36:47] But the big thing people miss about it is it's a social. Platform, which means that the magic happens in the comments and the [00:37:00] engagement, you can't just go on there and like you said, you know, throw out a post and then like, you can't post a ghost basically. And it doesn't work that way.
[00:37:10] That's right. I mean, what I find quite interesting, I'll write a post and an hour later, I'll go and have a look at who's read it.
[00:37:16] Now I'll see a whole lot of likes. Okay. And you know, the odds celebrate or whatever. But then I'll go and have a look and say, okay, well, what's the classification job description of the people who've. You've read it. Okay. And it's always at the top portfolio managers. And then I go and look at my lights.
[00:37:31] No portfolio managers have liked my post because they don't want to be seen to be, you know what I mean? It's like, they don't want to be seen to be commending a competitor or whatever. Well, I mean, unless you're a passive portfolio manager, seriously, where there's enough sunshine for all of us, I'm not really a competitor.
[00:37:49] And it's like, somebody has given you something that you thought was actually interesting and you didn't want to say thank you. I mean, I find it But anyway, that's fine. You know, each done. But what's interesting is they will get locked in by not [00:38:00] engaging and liking and commenting. They won't see every post because that's how the LinkedIn formula works.
[00:38:06] And the people who see the posts and it always pops up on their thread first are the ones who have read and commented and liked and just engaged. And Elgo learns that. So there, you know, there's a price to pay for not engaging.
[00:38:20] And there's also incredible value in your shadow fans, because I guarantee you that some of those portfolio managers type your name into LinkedIn every day that they're on that platform, right?
[00:38:35] They do because you know, there, And they may never raise their hand, but it's always amazing to me when it feels like someone falls out of the, from the sky, you know, it's like, oh, hi, you know, and they like, I feel like I know you or whatever. It's like, I've been following you on LinkedIn forever. I've never seen you.
[00:38:52] I've never seen you comment or anything, but they're just there and they're valuable. So you don't know, and we'll get off our [00:39:00] LinkedIn high horse here and like the soapbox of LinkedIn, but I think it's refreshing. For me in the seat that we're in saying, look, you know, share your thought leadership. If you want to compete with the bigs, there's a whole bunch of stuff you're never going to be able to compete with.
[00:39:17] Not the teams they build, not the budgets they have, not the army of salespeople, not the PR they can buy or the sponsorships. And you're never going to be able to touch that, but you can go toe to toe with them on thought leadership, but you have to get your thoughts out there. I mean, LinkedIn is It levels the playing field.
[00:39:37] That's a very good point. It does. And somebody once said to me, you know, put your best content out there because often people, you know, boutiques, I think, well, hang on, I'm going to share my best ideas. Why would I want to share my best ideas? And people are going to plagiarize them. And, and then, yeah, but that's how you get known and, you know, so share there's actually, it's the, I mean, you know, it's like, uh, what is it?
[00:39:58] You know, if children, they don't want to [00:40:00] share notes, mine. It's almost like a, you know what I mean? It's an inherent thing. But actually by sharing you get stuff back.
[00:40:06] That's how it works.
[00:40:10] And so I've met people through LinkedIn and, uh, I've had coffee with guys in Ireland or whatever, and I've made friends from LinkedIn and it's great.
[00:40:19] I mean, look at us. And so, yeah, we all want the same thing. I would encourage all boutiques get, put your content out there, get out there, comment on other. And here's a top tip that I heard learns, which I'll pass on. You know, if you want to get your name out there and want to build up contacts, go and make insightful comments on other people's content.
[00:40:37] Because if somebody makes insightful comments on my content, what happens is all the people who've read my post get to see that content. And then they go, who's this Mike guy? He seems quite smart. All right, let's go follow him. And that's how you do it. So it's great. I know it's a wonderful platform and it's, you know, it's free, even if he's in the premium.
[00:40:57] For a boutique again, you know, you want to [00:41:00] compete you want to grow You've got to find ways to do that that makes sense for you and showcase again the strengths It's like david and goliath, right?
[00:41:10] Absolutely.
[00:41:10] I mean you're not gonna beat goliath with goliaths Artillery and ammunition. You gotta come up with your, what's your
[00:41:20] slingshot?
[00:41:21] And you don't need a whole bunch. You need one thing you're really good at. And if you're good at investing and you specialize in something, the way to show it is through your thought leadership somehow. And so there you have it, everyone go follow Sean on LinkedIn and go write something or comment. Even comment, just start with that, right?
[00:41:41] Just start with that. That was great advice. I want to spend a minute on qualitative due diligence. Not that we have to go back to the numbers and narrative thing, because I think we agree that We're similar yet different on that topic. But the qualitative due [00:42:00] diligence and the bravery or courage that it takes to be yourself in this business.
[00:42:06] So you have worked at large firms, you've had your own firm, and you are very much yourself. Although, you know, I want you like to be more, even more so, right? Like let people see you and that's how they know you and like you and trust you. But why? I mean, Why is that so challenging in our business? Like, why is it so hard for fund managers to just shake off all the, you know, the industry stuff and be themselves?
[00:42:36] I think it's probably because many of us came out of institutions and the wealth managers that we market to our institutions. So we think we need to be institutional, you know, and that's probably the reason. And I think, but you're quite right. It's you then approaching it the same way. And, um, I'm trying to get better at this and thank you for your encouragement.
[00:42:57] I mean, you inspired me to write, you know, the [00:43:00] piece about, about Tim Barney and I've got, I've got other pieces. And so, you know, I'm trying to do that and it's great, you know, and I think the other interesting thing just on that, I think it's boutiques. We've got the luxury, I mean, Andrew and I, so he's, Andrew's my right hand guy.
[00:43:14] I mean, he's a, he's an absolute superstar. And I said to somebody the other day, and this was just before poor Charlie Munger passed away. I said, you know, I might be the Warren Buffett in the sense that I'm out there and people know about me and I've got the Yeah. But Andrew is more than half the brains and he's maybe the Charlie Mungo who sort of pitches up at the AGM.
[00:43:35] But Andrew and I own 70 percent of the business and the operations team has another 10. So we've got 80 percent and we've had many approaches to acquire us in total and we're not interested because then we'll lose our identity. You know, we want to hire who we want, buy whatever we want and say what we want.
[00:43:51] And the minute you become part of a large organization, you know, I've going to have Five lawyers thinking well, hang on. Can you actually say that in his linkedin post? And by the time my [00:44:00] linkedin post gets out there, you know It'll be three weeks after the company's reported results and forget it not going there.
[00:44:05] You know, so
[00:44:06] it's so true Yeah,
[00:44:11] it's so true. And so it's freeing but also it's Very scary. I mean, I still have times. It's a journey for all of us on authenticity and it's a daily practice to have the courage to show up as you really Are and so that's part of it like i'm sure when you wrote the tembani post like there's a little bit of trepidation of clicking like Clicking that because you're like gosh, this is like, you know There's a lot of heart and emotion and it's different than what I normally write and you know So that you just sort of have to work through it.
[00:44:42] But if you can it's incredibly freeing
[00:44:45] Stacey, I did a piece a little while ago. I don't know where you saw it. It's about Taylor Swift. So I joke. I
[00:44:50] can't wait to read it. Oh
[00:44:51] no. No. So I joke because I happen to love country music and my daughter shares my passion for it. And we've got a little that I play the guitar and we got a little clips [00:45:00] of us singing songs and we, we joke that we actually brought Taylor Swift to the UK long before anybody else knew about Taylor Swift.
[00:45:06] Okay. She was here. And so I wrote about a piece of that. I thought my daughter was a value manager and then she went paid 300 for 300 pounds. Did you see that? Yes. Yes. But what I try to do there is I said, well, you know, I think Taylor is unbelievable. Just an incredible business person. Just, I mean, just amazing.
[00:45:22] She makes herself vulnerable and all that sort of stuff. What can we learn from Taylor Swift? And then I kind of conclude at the end that actually, I think my daughter got a bargain at 300 bucks. Can I buy a ticket? And yeah. So that was another one, which is quite different and I'll try to put a little bit of humor in.
[00:45:36] So I'm trying to do more of those, but you know, I'm always, you always sort of worry. You think I'm going to run out of ideas and you know, you're always one bad post away from, yeah, one bad, you know, overstep the mark or something. So one's always got to be a little bit cautious, but that's where I've got Powell and Andrew.
[00:45:52] To just sense check. And I think that's the other thing for entrepreneurs. You know, you've, it's so important to have somebody that you can rely on to say, you know, [00:46:00] you know what, is this a bad idea? Cause I think it's a good idea. What do you think? And they can tell you, listen to short, it's a bad idea.
[00:46:05] Okay. That's a bad idea. I won't do it.
[00:46:07] That's so good.
[00:46:08] So one day when I write a book, I've got a whole lot of LinkedIn pieces in, in, you know, Taylor's got a vault. I've got my vault stuff.
[00:46:16] It's so good to do another podcast about all our things that we've learned from Taylor Swift, because there's so many from a business perspective.
[00:46:24] I mean, she really is unbelievable. Even I was just saying to Eric, my husband, the other day, I was like, you know, every. Music star is like, why didn't I think to turn my concert into a movie? Like it's so brilliant And yet it was right there in front of all of them and she's like, you know, that's a good idea I'm gonna record my concert and turn into a movie and get paid For that same event, I've already made a billion dollars.
[00:46:50] I'm going to just keep going. I mean, it's just brilliant and simple. I love it. You
[00:46:54] know, she couldn't break into the music scene. So she sang a song about Tim McGraw, who was the biggest [00:47:00] superstar at the time. And that was the name, you know, Tim McGraw. And then sang a song about him. All of a sudden, everybody said, who's this person?
[00:47:06] It's brilliant. Stroke of genius. So she was creative. And I think that what I wanted to say is she was creative in finding a solution to her problem. And us boutiques, we've got to be creative. We can't go. Yes. It's a bit like that dollar shave club. Remember they did so well and that was just a funny YouTube video and they, you know, they didn't have to advertise on the super bowl.
[00:47:27] They just did a funny YouTube and off they go. So we've got to be creative about how we get there.
[00:47:31] Yeah, we do. And I want to talk a little bit about entrepreneurship. I want to touch on that. You've given some fabulous advice so far. Specifically, I think the part of entrepreneurship I want to dive into, and hopefully it's okay.
[00:47:45] Is a lot of fund managers come to us and need help and one of the questions I'll ask them is, well, what does success look like for you? Like, you know, if we're sitting here a year from now, 3 years from now, [00:48:00] what does success look like for you? And I probably shouldn't say this, but what the red flag for me is, if somebody says, wow, a billion dollars yesterday, if you say a billion dollars yesterday.
[00:48:12] We are never working with you. Never. Because your expectation is so twisted, we will never make you happy. Right? You think you should already have it, and you don't, and you're pissed off, and you think we're going to save you, and no one's going to save you. So, you know, the idea, the reason I said I hope it's okay that I ask this is, you've done so incredibly well at delivering results, and what's your AUM right now?
[00:48:41] 138 million.
[00:48:42] Okay. Is that what you expected it to be? And what year is this?
[00:48:46] This is year 15. No way near. I mean, I thought we'd be multiples of this by now, but
[00:48:52] it's very humbling.
[00:48:53] Yeah, it is. And that's good. You know, it's good. You want to be humbled in this, uh, In the market, it's an [00:49:00] important thing. We might, as soon as you think you know everything, you're going to get cut down to size and your poor clients are going to feel it too.
[00:49:05] So humbling is not a problem. We can deal with humbling.
[00:49:08] We can deal with humbling.
[00:49:09] Yeah. So talk
[00:49:10] about that. Talk about that. Cause the expectation, especially if you're a talented portfolio manager, which you are, is exactly like you said, they're going to find me and the money's going to come quickly.
[00:49:20] Yeah.
[00:49:21] And you know, that's the thing. If you're, but I love what I do. I don't care. It takes.
[00:49:26] It's
[00:49:26] like people ask me, I mean, the odd thing is, is you helping people save for their retirement, but I'm never going to retire. So, you know, I don't think retirement's a great thing. I'm hopefully I'm helping people save for the time when they do, you know, contribute in a different way so they can just sit on the sofa and watch Netflix.
[00:49:43] So that doesn't matter. And it has taken a long time and there've been times when I didn't think we're going to make it. I really didn't. And it's been challenging in that it hasn't been a market for value stocks. And so, you know, the pandemic happens and I think finally, we've got a crisis here, right?
[00:49:58] Finally, all the bad, it's just [00:50:00] going to, the euphoria is going to get shaken off, but of course everyone's still. You know, then you're sitting at home and you're buying, uh, people are buying Apple and they're ordering on Amazon and they, you know, sitting on Pelotons and all the rest. And so that, and, and that just market just goes absolutely nuts.
[00:50:15] But the period of QE was challenging for value managers, but that period is over and you seeing a lot of the funds that did well. are from buying those quality companies that paid dividends and all the rest. Well, they paid dividends and the dividend yields were attractive when interest rates were practically nought.
[00:50:31] Well, now interest rates aren't practically nought and their dividend yields are much lower. So, you know, it's no wonder that they're stumbling. Uh, many of those brands are exposed to processions, things like that. So I think the world has changed. And I think this is going to be our era going forward. And people, you know, in terms of past track record, they look and they go, well, how have you done over 1, 3, 5, 10 since inception?
[00:50:52] It's a big job. Well, that 10 captures the QE, you know? So it's like, well, let's focus [00:51:00] on, on the period. What they should do is, how have you, how did you do during QE? And how did you do Since QE ended, okay, since inflation and interest rates normalized, because what the aberration was that 10 year period, not, not now.
[00:51:14] And so I just, you know, I just know that we're doing the right stuff and it'll come and I know it'll come and we'll be there when it does.
[00:51:21] I love that. Another great example, by the way, of why narrative can give so much context in partnership with numbers, because 10 years, starting today, looking backwards is much different than other timeframes, right?
[00:51:36] There's so much to that. That was really well said. So on the entrepreneurship thing, and specifically, I guess, for boutiques, What would you say to them, like, if, you know, they're starting out and they're like, I'm going to have a billion dollars in three years. It's like, how do you help them? I guess I'm asking for myself because, you know, I don't want to rain on their parade, but I also know how [00:52:00] unrealistic that is.
[00:52:00] So what advice do you have for managers? around expectations of growth, et cetera,
[00:52:06] you need to prepare for the fact that it's going to take you longer than you ever thought it would. Okay. And you've got to be able to cope with that. And you better have a partner. If you've got a partner who is going to stay the course with you.
[00:52:18] And thankfully, I'm unbelievably lucky in that my wife, Marilyn is just the most amazing person. And she has been right there with me all the time. And I mean, at one point we had our money at when we were still running a hedge funders alongside our global equity fund, which we just launched with Morgan Stanley and Morgan Stanley was going into free fall.
[00:52:37] And I've got home one Friday night and I said, if Morgan Stanley doesn't open for business on Monday and it goes the same way as Lehman Brothers, we might have to start again. And she said, well, let's start again. Now, listen, are we having Sauvignon Blanc with our dinner or are we having a Chardonnay?
[00:52:52] Like not a problem. Okay. She is just the most amazing person. And I wouldn't have been able to do this without her. So I think you need a good partner there [00:53:00] because you're going to come home on stressful days and you're going to be grumpy and they've got to be able to, you know, talk you out of it or whatever, but also health, having somebody in the business, you know, it's lonely out there having somebody in the business who you can turn to.
[00:53:12] And I've been very lucky. In that the people I've had, Richard, when I started, he's still a very good friend of mine. And then, you know, he went and rode his own boat and did really well. And then Howell, and now Andrew, and Howell. You know, these guys are just, just there's a sounding board, sensible people.
[00:53:30] I think the other thing is you want to get into business really with him. You could imagine saying, listen, will you be children trustee of my children's trust? If I fall off my page tomorrow and I've got young kids, will you look after them? That's how much I trust you. If you get into business with those kinds of people, you're off to a winner.
[00:53:46] And so you've got to have those and then also you've got to understand you might be a brilliant portfolio manager, but you know, you know, all of a sudden you've got to be managing people, you've got to be managing the business, you've got to be raising money, you've got to be encouraging your team during and [00:54:00] keeping them going during the tough times and saying, don't worry guys, listen, we're onto a winner here.
[00:54:04] Let's just be patient. Don't stress. So you've got to have all those other things. And, uh, multi, you know, you've got to, yeah, I guess you've got to multitask and if you don't, then you've got to hire people to do that. Well, then what happens when one of them, you've got to make sure you've got the right person, because if the person who's raising money is doing well, well, you think they are only going to be able to raise money.
[00:54:23] If you doing, if you generate the performance, if you're not generating the tensions can, can occur. So it's not an easy route and you've got to decide you want the whole thing and then be patient. Because tough times they'll come, you know, there'll be tough times for sure.
[00:54:38] Well, that was such fabulous advice, such fabulous advice.
[00:54:42] And I know and believe in my heart of hearts, there will be a day in the not too, you know, distant future that you'll be looking back on where you are right now and saying, gosh, remember when that was our AUM level and look at, you know, how far we've come. And that to [00:55:00] me, as somebody who believes in boutiques, like.
[00:55:03] There's nothing like helping someone build something. You never forget those teammates, those, you know, vendors who gave you a break in the beginning, those investors who took a chance on you in the beginning. Like, to me, that is just such a special time, special relationship, and it can last a lifetime.
[00:55:24] Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:55:25] Super awesome. All right. I want to end with something a little fun. This has been fabulous.
[00:55:30] Okay.
[00:55:31] This is going to be a little bit of an exercise in authenticity for you, which is good because you said you want to practice that, right?
[00:55:38] Yeah. Okay.
[00:55:39] All right. So we're going to do my version of Proust's questionnaire.
[00:55:43] We'll start out hopefully with stuff that's, you know, a little bit easier and work our way. You ready?
[00:55:49] Okay.
[00:55:50] Okay. All right. Here we go. What book inspires you?
[00:55:54] The first book that I read, which kind of changed my life really, was The Magic of Thinking Big by [00:56:00] David Schwartz. And it's full of incredible quotes in there.
[00:56:03] You know, action cures fear. It opened a doorway. You know, they talk about self help books. No, that's not self help. It's self improvement. And it was just incredible. It's an incredible book.
[00:56:12] Okay. Love that. Yeah.
[00:56:14] If you want to taste it, just go and type, you know, Magic of Thinking Big quotes on Google and you'll get 25 quotes.
[00:56:19] Great. All right, so sorry, long way to answer that.
[00:56:21] No, that's all right. I love that. I also love that you didn't say an investment book. Not that like investment people can't do that, but I'm always like, oh, it's such an opportunity to talk about something else. So good job. Yeah. All right, now we're moving on to places.
[00:56:35] What place inspires you? What's your happy place?
[00:56:39] My happy place. I read a long time ago that living close to water is good for the soul.
[00:56:44] Yes. And I
[00:56:44] know you do your walks on the beach. And so we actually back onto a canal when, you know, and there's swans and all the rest. And so I love that. And we've got a holiday house in South Africa near water.
[00:56:55] So, so living near water. And then, and then my second, if I can't find water, it's forests. I love [00:57:00] forests going for walks in forests.
[00:57:02] That's so great. I have a book for you, which a lot of people I've recommended this book to, said, well, they didn't like it. So I don't know why I keep recommending it. But the thing is, it moved me to tears.
[00:57:13] So I'm not understanding that. So the book is called, I'm staring at it right now, blue mind. And it's exactly what you described. It's basically the power of water. The stories are amazing. The science, it's got all the things you like. It's got data, it's got science, and it's got my stuff like the stories.
[00:57:33] It's one of my favorite books. I don't know. You'll have to tell me if you read it.
[00:57:37] I will get hold of that and read. In fact, I might even get the, the audio version and then Listen to that while I'm walking through forests. How about that?
[00:57:44] Oh, forest. I thought you were going to say by the water. I read it while I was out at a very beautiful place that was on the water.
[00:57:50] And I think maybe that contributed to my experience,
[00:57:52] but
[00:57:52] neither here nor there. I love that. That was great.
[00:57:55] Okay. All right.
[00:57:56] Now a fun one. Maybe. Yeah. For me. [00:58:00] Okay. Let's pretend we're in the future. We've got a couple billion dollars. Now you're going to go speak to a group of boutiques. You're going to give them, you know, tell them your story, give them some advice.
[00:58:10] You're about to take the stage. What song do they play as your walkout anthem?
[00:58:16] Okay. Well, I love country music. I should have been born in Nashville. Okay. There's no doubt about that. And I've still got to go on a pilgrimage to Nashville. So it would have to be a country music and it would have to be have a great beat because I love playing the drums.
[00:58:29] And I'll tell you a song that really gets me fired up and has helped me over some tough times is Kelly Clarkson. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Oh,
[00:58:38] yes. That's a great one. Oh my goodness. I love that.
[00:58:40] And she's got another one called The Sun Will Rise, which is also, I love the words for that.
[00:58:45] But yeah, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. That's a good song.
[00:58:47] Okay, that's fabulous. And so awesome. Like, not what you'd expect, so that makes it even cooler to me. Okay, speaking of things you wouldn't expect, what [00:59:00] profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
[00:59:03] I'd probably, you know, if I didn't work here, I'd probably be teaching.
[00:59:07] I love teaching. I've thoroughly enjoyed teaching the young guys who come through. The company and I prefer part, you know, hiring people who don't have an experience then building them up. And, you know, I was at the London school of economics and the London business school recently and sort of lecturing or giving them a talk and judging a competition.
[00:59:26] So teaching is great. And I love getting the LinkedIn messages thanking me for what I've taught them. So yeah. And that's why my blog will never be paid. Okay. So teaching is good. Then it's a way of giving back.
[00:59:36] Yes, I am so aligned on that. Okay. Flip side.
[00:59:40] Yeah.
[00:59:40] What profession would you not like to do?
[00:59:43] I would not like to be in human resources.
[00:59:45] Okay. I mean, I've thought of that. Forget it. Filling in, you know, dealing with, especially at an investment bank, HR at an investment bank. Okay. Where you've got, where you're dealing with people who think they something special and more valuable than everybody else. [01:00:00] No way. That
[01:00:01] is amazing. What a great answer.
[01:00:04] That's the hardest part about being an entrepreneur, in my opinion, managing people and all those things. Very, very challenging. Okay. Last one. You're doing great. Okay. What do you want people to say about you after you've, well, you're not going to retire after you've retired, if you ever do or leave the industry?
[01:00:26] Yeah, so I think, well, I mean, it was one of the seven habits of highly effective people start with the end in mind, and I can't imagine leaving this industry voluntarily, okay, I'll do this until I'm no longer on this planet, and mortality is something I think about quite often actually, and I guess it's because my wife's a little bit.
[01:00:43] Pediatric intensive care consultant in intensive care. So, you know, you hear those stories and oh my goodness. And with my dad passing away earlier and all the rest. So, so I do think about my mortality and I guess I'd like people to say, you know, he made a positive, I made a [01:01:00] positive difference to their life and however, you know, help them save, help them retire, help them learn, help them get a job, whatever, something like that.
[01:01:09] So that's probably what I'd
[01:01:10] like. I bet there are quite a few people that are already saying that people at your company, people whose lives you've touched. That was wonderful sentiment. This time with you has been wonderful. for being here. So I have two questions. Normally I always end with like, if people want to follow along, how can they do that?
[01:01:31] I think they should know, and hopefully they have already connected with you on LinkedIn. So my question for you is going to be slightly different. If people want to learn more about your funds and your offerings, well, first of all, who can? Can people in the U. S.? Is this a coming soon? Like, give us a sense of how can we learn more about RAND more, if that's something that we want to do.
[01:01:57] Yes, we run an Irish usage. It's an Irish [01:02:00] usage fund, and it's not approved for regulation for marketing in the U. S. And U. S. Citizens are are a challenge at this point, and it is something we're going to look at finding a U. S. Friendly vehicle. And I have been getting contacted from, you know, via LinkedIn people saying, well, how do we invest?
[01:02:17] And we've unfortunately in those kind of areas, you know, it's a highly regulated fund. And so we approved marketing in the UK, Ireland, and South Africa. And so we've got to stick to those. We get the odd reverse solicitation, but obviously compliance is very important. So watch us, you know, there's something we'll be looking at that.
[01:02:34] In the U. S. Within the next year, we'll have something there, maybe a feeder fund of sorts, I would guess.
[01:02:39] Okay, wonderful. And so if we want to follow along, we can go to your website, which is?
[01:02:44] Rangmorefunds. com.
[01:02:46] And can we get on a distribution list there? Yeah, with
[01:02:49] pleasure. You know, and we encourage feedback and what I try and do on our distribution list, you know, we, when we write our monthly fact sheet, what we'd really try and do is not just say, [01:03:00] well, the market went out.
[01:03:00] We think oil is going to do this and gold is going to do that. The markets and the feds going to say this, you know, we actually said, listen, here's a company. This is why we like it. This is why we prefer it to others. So we kind of try and find, yeah, it's a bit different in that regard.
[01:03:13] Love it. So sign up there for things ran more and follow you on LinkedIn
[01:03:20] and
[01:03:21] yeah.
[01:03:21] Wonderful. Thank you so much,
[01:03:23] Stacy. Thank you so much for the opportunity and what a joy and pleasure to meet you.
[01:03:27] Same.
[01:03:31] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. The information is not an offer, solicitation, or recommendation of any of the funds, services, or products or to adopt any investment strategy. Investment values may fluctuate and past performance is not a guide to future performance.
[01:03:50] All opinions expressed by guests on the show are solely their own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those at their firm. Manager's appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement by [01:04:00] Stacey Havener or Havener Capital Partners.