The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown

In this episode of The Debrief Podcast, Matthew and Tammy take on tough questions from the Sandals Church community  that touch on some of the most personal and challenging aspects of being a woman of faith. Tune in as they explore how women can wrestle with faith, forgiveness, and healing—finding the grace to move forward without shame.

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What is The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown?

The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.

Scott Schutte:

Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. This episode contains content about marriage and sex that might not be suitable for some younger listeners. Let's get into the episode.

Tammy Brown:

Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the debrief podcast with Matthew Steven Brown, where we break down your questions about the sermon or life. But before we jump in today's question, I have a question for you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Uh-oh. I'm in trouble.

Tammy Brown:

Never in trouble with

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

me. Well, thought our vision was being real, but

Tammy Brown:

I just broke vision, everybody. I just was wondering for you to share two things. One is, what's something you're asking God for in this season? And then the counter to be to that would be, like, what's something God's done in your life this season that you asked for in a prior season? Like, what what are you asking him for?

Tammy Brown:

Yeah. And what are you celebrating that God's doing in your life?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. So I'd say the thing that I'm asking for is momentum. Know, years ago I read a John Maxwell book that talked about the power of a locomotive train and once it's moving, nothing can stop it. But if the train is stopped and you put a penny in front of the wheel, it cannot start. And you know, and I think that's the way churches are sometimes, like when we're stuck or we're stopped, it's so hard to get going.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And COVID, George Floyd, the presidential politics, all of these things, right, have been forces that have been

Tammy Brown:

They've been pennies on the Yeah,

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

they've been pennies, they've been a lot more than pennies. Although I hear Trump is getting rid of pennies. Did anybody hear that? So I think he's getting rid of pennies, which I say, well done, I hate pennies. I mean, I don't hate them, but I don't want to have change in my pocket.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I feel like there's momentum. People are coming, people are back to church, people are excited about bringing their Bibles.

Tammy Brown:

So this is what you're celebrating?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. What I'm celebrating. Okay. And so what was the next question?

Tammy Brown:

What's something you're asking for?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You're asking God for this God for just really clarity of of where does he want us specifically as as it as it relates to mission. Like, where does he want know, we were in Mexico last week together. We're hearing about Convoy of Hope. I'm hearing about all the things, all the people that are taking trips at our church and places they're going. And so one of the things that's just really difficult at Sandals, we're not struggling saying no to bad things.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Hard part of being a megachurch is we have to say no to good things. Like, we cannot say yes to every request, and my DMs are inundated with, hey pastor Matt, I'm raising money for this. Hey pastor Matt, I would love this. And so people love to hate the megachurch until they need funds. And then they run to the megachurch for funds because, you know, we have 14 campuses that we pool our resources together.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's a lot more money than say an individual campus would have. And so it's, Lord, give me clarity of vision on, you know, all dollars are precious and we're not the government that gets to waste your money.

Tammy Brown:

We're committed to being good stewards.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah, we want be a good steward and savior. So God, where is my best yes? Where do you want us to spend this money? And just really praying through that, because all of us, whether you're poor or wealthy, whether you oversee a large organization like Sandals or a small organization, we're all accountable to God for how we spend his resources. The dollars we collect are his.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so, God, where do you want me to give my best yes? And that's hard for Christians, but we have to remember, Jesus doesn't heal everyone everywhere. He just didn't. He says this about the poor, you will always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me, when Judas is criticizing how they're spending the money. So we want to take care of the poor.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

James says that that's perfect. Perfect religion is those who look after widows and those children who are in poverty. And I want to do that. So where do we do that? Where's our best yes?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I want to make a big impact. And you know, just for example in our state in California, we spend a lot of money on homelessness. I don't think anybody in this room would say we're doing well. Like it's not working and that's We're

Tammy Brown:

really curious about

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Where companies

Scott Schutte:

come in.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's not a political statement, it's just an observation. I don't think anybody would say, yeah, those billions of dollars are well spent. And so we want to make sure that the tithes that people entrust us with Yep. Are being used in the best way possible. It's easy to critique, that's what Judas does.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Judas critiques the woman who

Tammy Brown:

Oh my gosh.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's what Jesus empties the oil on the feet of Jesus, and she's and he says to Jesus, we could have used that money to feed the poor. And Jesus scolds him because the best yes in that moment was the feet of Jesus. And so, Lord, where is the best yes as we collect? And thank you for everybody out there. I know.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

People are starting to give. You know, so many people at Sandals Church are new to the faith, they're new to church life, and this whole idea of tithing, and if you don't know what that is, giving 10% of your income. And I'm not saying you have to do that, you and I, we do that. We believe God blesses it, and that's just our conviction. But there are Christians who disagree, and God bless them.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

People are starting to give, and our giving is actually up about 10% this year. And so year over year and that that is so helpful for us because I don't wanna talk about money every every weekend. I

Tammy Brown:

Well, it just Yeah. It allows us to do incredible ministries. Some we have to account for. Yeah. And all of the things that are unplanned Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

That we didn't know would would come. And so but I think the main point that you and I have learned from tithing in particular is it's not about the money, it's about the reminder

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

That God's our provider. Yeah. And so when I hear that giving is up, I celebrate that other people are experiencing that. They're saying, God, it's yours, and the work of the church matters. And it's it's such a picture of individual people's spiritual maturity, faithfulness, conviction, and just the health of our church.

Tammy Brown:

So I celebrate that. I think the thing I'm asking God for in this season is similar to you. It's just like, what is this next season for you and I in ministry look like? For me, specifically, like, what like, you're kind of saying what is my best yes, and just relationship health and just yeah. Just like like a new clarity and purpose.

Tammy Brown:

Because like you said, there's so many good things, but not every good thing, not every good opportunity is where God wants you. And that is such a tricky thing to be able to figure out Mhmm. The God thing from the good things. Because Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

It's easy when it's, like, terrible things and then, like, one great option. You're like, woah. Yeah. That must be God's will for me. But when it's a lot of good things, just like searching out and quieting whatever needs to quiet in my life to hear God's voice.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Amen. Good work.

Tammy Brown:

Okay. Today's questions are they're kinda tricky.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

So this one comes from Janelle from Anaheim, California. It says, the discipleship group I am a part of at our Anaheim campus is currently walking through the Luke study in the Sandals Church app. As we walked through Luke one, I noticed that the angel never asked Mary if she wanted to become pregnant. I know she gives her consent in Luke one thirty eight, but my question is, if Mary wasn't actually asked if she wanted to become pregnant, where does free will come into play in this?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. So there there's a lot Great question. There's a lot at stake here, Janelle. of all, let me say thank you that you're doing the app, that you're doing the study, that you're reading God's word.

Tammy Brown:

Great resource.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so what you're encountering here is is the problem of any person that's going to start studying their Bible. Is the thing that we have to realize is we live in a cultural context where the word consent is known and used. And then we're reading into a cultural context for Mary. This is a century Jewish woman two thousand years ago, where if we asked women about consent, they would go, what? Like, women have no rights.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So, when we're looking for that in the text, we're looking for a current need that we see valuable and is it important to get consent, you know, for a woman, you know, especially like in the sense of like when you and I started dating, I asked you, can I kiss you?

Tammy Brown:

That's Sure did.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

For all the young men listening, that is consent. And I've told my son, videotape that because

Tammy Brown:

A new day.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Because you want to make sure that you have a record because there's a lot of confusion about that issue. But that's a current cultural issue that we have. And so we're trying to read that back into the text and we can't always do that. A similar issue is like the issue of slavery. We have such an ugly history of slavery here in our country, and so when we read in the Bible that there were slaves, we think, oh my gosh, how could that be?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

How could God be good? Well, you're reading into a cultural context, say, three thousand five hundred years ago in The Middle East where, you know, slavery is really the economy by which people work. I mean, you have very, very wealthy people, and then you had basically slaves. And that's how the world worked. And God is changing the hearts of people who own slaves, how you treat them, make sure you value them, remember that you too have a master, and that we are called to be slaves of Christ.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so God challenges the culture by challenging the way they treat them, where what we would want in our culture is we want the abolition of slavery. And so the argument has been, and this is what William Wilberforce, who, and we have to remember this, that it was England, specifically Christians in England that led the global movement for the abolition of slavery. And the reasoning behind that is when William Wilberforce looked at the text he said, hey, there's seeds of abolition here. And that is, the slave is my brother. I too have a master, and so we need to get rid of this, that this is applied on humanity.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So but when a time reader of the scriptures reads it, like, my gosh, God is bad because he allowed it. And so God speaks to the culture in which the scriptures come to. He's not devoid of that. And so God is calling a specific small group of shepherds, right? They're not global change agents.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

They're a tiny little people. They don't have an army. And many people miss this, the story of David and Goliath, they're not even in the iron age. So a lot of people miss that in the story of David and Goliath. Goliath's sword is made of iron, the Israelites, their weapons are made of copper.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So this is like, you know, The United States Of America fighting a war with Iran. The technology is hugely different between what the Iranians have and what we have, and I'm not saying that we should do that, I'm just saying Iran has technology, America has technology, our technology is superior. And so that's just something that we don't read culturally that we don't realize, oh wow, they're outgunned, they're outmanned, they don't have the same technology. And so we don't read that in the miracle where the audience would have said, oh yeah, didn't have the right kind of weaponry. So you have to read into the text and understand that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so what I would say is, you said where does Mary's free will come in? She does say, as you wish, I am a servant of the Lord. So she does acknowledge at the end that she's choosing to trust God in this moment. So I would say maybe it's not clearly the kind of consent that we want, because I think what you're asking is you want the angel to ask, is this okay? In the ancient world, that's just not a question that they would ask.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mary sees herself as the slave of God, and a slave does what the master requests. And that's just really hard for us in our culture to assume that. But the Apostle Paul begins almost every letter with I Paul a bondservant, and that word is actually doulos in the Greek, which is slave. And American translators have translated it bondservant because of the negative connotation of the word slave. But Paul saw himself as a slave of God.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I've been I've been bought with a price is what he says in Corinthians. So go ahead.

Tammy Brown:

I was saying it's an interesting thing to really think through. It's such a great question, but just the idea of seeing the birth of Jesus and the honor that that bestowed upon Mary just between, like, God chose her for such an incredible thing. And if you think of that in other areas of any of our lives then or today Mhmm. Like, the incredible things that God does in our life, like, is he asking us now? You know, like, hey.

Tammy Brown:

Do you want me to do this incredible thing in your life? Or does it happen and you're like, thank you, God, for that? Because we don't know what we don't know. We don't know how good he is or what his plans are, even in some of the harder things, which, again, having a baby and the shame and all that it brought on Mary

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

Was a difficult thing, but most of our best fruit tends to be the byproduct of difficult things

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right.

Tammy Brown:

That we didn't ask for either way. So it's a great question.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right. And I would say this, that God is not going to ask God has what's called foreknowledge, so God can see how we're going to respond and what we're going do. God's not going to ask a woman that he knows will say no. You know I'm saying? So he's God, so he's not he's not going to God didn't call me to preach and then not give me the ability to preach.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. Mhmm. God called me because he knew he already gave me And so, you know, God knows in advance what we're going to do, even though we are free to choose. You know, so there's actually a Catholic priest that responds to Calvinism, it's known as Mullenism, and it's after his name, is that God not only knows what choice you will make, he knows all the choices that you could make and those outcomes. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So it's difficult way to try to wrap our brains around how can God know the end and yet we still have free will. And so you can Google Mullenism, and William Lake Craig from Biola University has kind of made that popular. And in what it's refuting is Calvinism, says everything has already been predetermined. So God can know the future because it's, he's already decided it. So that's the Calvinist view, fatalism.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And not every Calvinist would agree with that, but Mullenist says no, no, no, there are unlimited options, and God knows the outcome of every single option that you could choose.

Tammy Brown:

It's so incredible to think Yeah.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So you know, I think Mullenism is a better explanation of that, but there's no perfect explanation. Like I say all the time, trying to understand God is like trying to empty the ocean with a Dixie cup. And young people don't know what a Dixie cup is anymore, so a coffee mug.

Tammy Brown:

It's a very small cup.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It's a very small cup. But you know, like an espresso cup. You know, like you're scooping your whole life and you feel like you're learning. Mhmm. But when you look at the ocean, you've you've just scratched the surface of the immensity of who God is.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so I don't believe that God violates free will. I believe that one of the mandates of God is love, is that love requires that I choose God. So God does not force me or change my heart or cause me to choose him, because that, by definition, is not love. And so that's my own political, excuse me, my own theological position. There are good Christians that disagree with that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

But I believe Mary had a choice. And I see consent because, Janelle, after you asked this question, like, got go read Luke one again. So I read through it again. I do believe that there is consent from her level of understanding as a century Jewish woman, but we're not going to be satisfied as 20 century Americans that value consent as literally a right. And, you know, I mean we can talk about what are the rights that we have when it comes to our relationship with God.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so it's one of the things that makes America unique. It says we believe that these truths are self evident, that they are given to us by our Creator. So even as Americans, if we understand our theology and our political upbringing, the rights that we have are not things that we deserve, but things that were given to us by God. And so even the things that we think, oh, this is a right, well, if you're a Christian, why do you have that right? Because God chose to give it to you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So we gotta be careful. Great question, Janelle. I love that you're studying that.

Tammy Brown:

Awesome. Janelle, so good. And we're so grateful you guys are going through that study on the app. There's so much good resources on there. Okay.

Tammy Brown:

This next question comes from Nicole from Coeur D'Alene, Idaho. Very special place to you and I. Yes. And it's such a good question. And so particularly parents and parents of teens, this is a good question for you guys to listen to, and we had similar questions when our kids were teens.

Tammy Brown:

So it says this, in what ways do you think that the church can improve discussions on purity culture? I know many single women in their thirties and forties now whose dating lives have been heavily affected by shame and fear as a result of the soiled dove culture from the early two thousands. Interesting. I had to take myself back to the early two thousands. I'm like, I remember that term.

Tammy Brown:

And even married couples and single men whose lives are negatively affected by it as well. I now have a teen daughter and want to give her healthy conversations surrounding intimacy without giving her a lifelong fear of shame.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Man, Nicole, this is a great question and thank you for this. And so, sandals was not a part of the purity culture, so you're more aware of it than I am. You know, I tell people all the time, we're Baptist Sodom and Gomorrah. You know, we're like, we are trying to curb morality that was just way different than where I think the purity culture came out of a conservative family based church, kind of in rural America, and that's just not where Sandals was.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I understand that that happened. So let me say this, Nicole, I think their intent was good. They wanted, in an extremely sexualized culture, they wanted to reestablish the priority of purity. And then really the beauty of virginity. And I remember this, I grew up in California and I was a total virgin and I remember sitting in the spa and and my buddies were like, well, how many girls have you slept with?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And how and I'm like, three. And they're like, my friend's like, who are they? I'm like, oh, you wouldn't know them, you know? In the eighties Brown. Could just make you could just make up girls because there was no way to track them on social media.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You know, like, oh, you wouldn't know her, you know. And what it was as a young Christian kid, in that moment I was ashamed of being a virgin. And so here's where I think purity culture is a good thing, is I think it's something that you should be proud of. Say hey, I'm saving myself for this person, here's what I believe sex is, here's why it matters to me. And you know, the world says oh, it's just sex, like a handshake, and I would say well, you know, that's not what the evidence says.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so, you know, Nicole, what I would say with your daughter is, you could just come at it from a purely scientific point of view. Women who have multiple sex partners have a harder time later on in life bonding with a male. That's research. Because God, I believe God has designed women, right, to connect, and there are chemicals, I think oxytocins, that are released two times in a woman's body. One when she is intimate with a man, so she feels connected, the other time is breastfeeding.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So when a woman breastfeeds with her child, there's a chemical that's released in her brain that says this child is mine. And so God has designed women to bond with one man. Men, unfortunately, you know, it's easier for us to have sex with many partners and not feel bonded in that way, which is why I think it's so confusing for young girls that think if I sleep with this guy, then he'll choose me and I'll be his only one. And oftentimes they find themselves very disappointed. So, because guys just operate differently.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I'm not excusing it. I believe that men should be, I'm committed to you, I don't sleep around, I'm devoted to you.

Tammy Brown:

Thank you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

But I think that, yeah, you're welcome. Think that that's an important part of relationships. I would say sex is something that you and I enjoy with each other and with no one else. It's something that is unique to our relationship in the way that we relate, and we don't relate that way anyways. So what I would say to your daughter, Nicole, is that you love her, and I would just share, here's how my church presented this, and it wounded me, it hurt me, I don't agree with that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I would just say, I love you no matter what, here's what I want for you. What my hope for her would be that you would find a guy that loves you and respects you enough to wait until you get married. That's our goal. But if you fall short of that goal, I'm not going to give up on you and neither is God. The word soiled dove is gross.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It is weird. Think it's, you know, it's terrible. I heard about this one story where a youth pastor, pastor rose around the audience. Have you heard this? And after everyone touched it, brings it up and the rose is wilted and grossed.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And he tells all the girls who would want this rose. And I remember screaming, Jesus. You know, Jesus wants that rose. And so it's disgusting that we make people feel terrible about themselves or shameful because they've made a mistake sexually. There's a very specific example, Nicole, in the Bible where a woman's caught in the act of adultery and Jesus stands over her.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And many of us as Christians, I think fail to realize the scope of this. Jesus says, he is without sin, let him cast the stone, and then he writes in the ground with his finger. The Torah, the five books of the Old Testament says they were written by the finger of God. And I think many Christians fail to realize Moses the law, and now Yahweh is writing in the sand with his finger. And that's why from the oldest to the youngest, they realize, okay, wait a minute.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And what what Jesus is reclaiming in that moment is the spirit of Moses. And that's when you read Jesus, when he rails against the law, right, there's the law and there's the spirit of the law. What is the spirit of the law? And oftentimes as Americans, you know, we get caught up in what the law says, but what is the reasoning behind this? And so, you know, where Jesus said Moses gave you certificates of divorce because of the hardness of your heart.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. He says from the beginning, God wanted the two to become one flesh and let no one turn apart. And so what Jesus is really returning to is what was God's heart behind the law? Mhmm. And so so I think that the people's heart behind the law is that we would establish a culture that promotes and celebrates purity.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Where I think they went wrong, the soiled dove, the dirty rose. Like, you don't have to shame

Tammy Brown:

is a lot for women. Yeah. Yeah. Like, women hold it differently. Like, it says in here men, and I do know men have shame in that as But I think for women, it's like guys can have sex with a lot of people and it can be celebrated, not clearly among Christian culture, but

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

But women who do, it just it's like like, you know, it is such like, oh, you're a slut. You're this. You're that. It's so terrible and

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Well, there is a double standard. And in that story, says in in John eight, we caught her in the act. Well, means there had to be a dude. Right. So where is he?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right. So and so culturally speaking and even religiously we punish women more than the male. And so what I would just say is, again, your heart behind this is the daughter. I would just say a lot of us are hurt by good intentions. Like I grew up, no alcohol, no card playing, no dancing.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Now the intention was to save me from what previous generations experienced. You go to the bar, you start drinking, you start playing cards, and the next thing you know, you're drunk. So my grandparents' generation didn't understand alcoholism, didn't understand addiction, and what they did is they threw, and this is the saying, the baby out with the bathwater. Now, knows what that means anymore. The wild West, the oldest, the mom, the dad, then the mom, then the kids, and the last person to get a bath was the baby.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So think about that. The baby got the dirtiest water, and so the saying comes from don't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. That's where it comes from. And we tend to do that. We say we react against our wounds from Nicole, I'm going give these people the benefit of doubt.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I don't think they meant to shamed her, maybe they did. I think their intent was to say, look, we got a culture that promotes hypersexuality and if you're not having sex, there's something wrong with you. What we're going do is we're going to promote purity culture and what I would say this, is even a virgin isn't pure. I'm not pure, you're not Jesus is pure. And so really what it does is it corrupts the gospel.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And what we're saying is, no, no, no, it's not about purity, it's about valuing the sexual ethic that the gospel presents, that the scriptures present. And that ethic is sex is something to be reserved for marriage, and that's the goal, but I didn't attain that goal. And so I have to go before the cross and confess my sins to Jesus. And here's the thing, the blood that he shed on the cross cleanses me from all unrighteousness. That's in the past.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I'm not a what's the kind of dove?

Tammy Brown:

Soiled.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I'm not a soiled dove. I'm not a dirty rose. I'm a redeemed Christian. You know, old is gone, the new is here. I'm a new person, and we have to allow the gospel to truly forgive and set people free in that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I think that there's a perversion of the gospel, what they were teaching, and kind of a legalism, you're only good enough for God if you're pure, well, then Jesus didn't need to die. But there's also the hope for your daughter, and so I would just say, and we've said this to our kids, I love you no matter what, here's my hope for you. And the goal of purity, and I don't like that word, is because I love you. And I don't want you to be hurt. And you know, young relationships, young love is painful.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Know, when one of our kids went through it, you know, people say, oh, you'll get over it. And I told her, son, no, you won't. I still remember. I still remember my heart being smashed. And I jokingly said, you know, and I'm not going say her name because God forbid she ever listens to this podcast, but in high school my heart got smashed by a girl.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And if she walked into sandals, it'd be really awkward. I'd be like, you know, like I'd be like, go to Harvest, man, you know. Like, there's a lot of great churches, you don't need to come here.

Tammy Brown:

And they're looking for you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Yeah.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So what were you saying?

Tammy Brown:

That's what I was gonna say is that this question made me try to think back of the conversations that we had with our girls. This is for a daughter in particular, and just always wanting to not sell them, if you will, because I think that's what purity culture was kind of trying to do is like sell you on the better way. But we wanted them, like you said said, to be to like, here's our hope for you and here's why.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

And I think maybe where that culture stopped short was just like, here's what's right, here's what's wrong. Right?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

And I went to Christian school. You know this. We're very different in our high school upbringing.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yep. I went to the ghetto.

Tammy Brown:

And, you know, there like, there was everybody wanted to rebel against

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right.

Tammy Brown:

The right and the wrong. And it wasn't the heart, because I don't think the heart of the why mattered. Like, here's here's why this is God's best for you. Mhmm. The sale is if you do this, you are bad.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right.

Tammy Brown:

And I think you and I imperfectly, but tried to say, like, not you're bad, like, here's here's the why God wants this. Whether you choose that or not for yourself, you can feel which, you know, part of the shame is not necessarily, I I think, what purity culture put on it. It's part of being outside God's will. Yeah. Like, a shame is a natural part of that, and we wanted for our kids, for our girls, to have them not have that because it is a part.

Tammy Brown:

Like, any other sin you do Mhmm. That's you not being in God's best for you, which is sex outside of marriage Right. Shame comes with with being outside of it. It's a part of who it is, and we wanted to say, like, you may choose this, and we love you. But if you choose it, here's here's some things you might be handling.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

If you don't, here here's some other things like that. But you're gonna have to wrestle with that. And, you know, one of the things I think the conversation had was, like, real life consequences. Like, here's some things that can happen. Like Right.

Tammy Brown:

Pregnancy. Are you ready for like, there are some natural consequences to it as well as just being outside of God's thing. It's like, are are you ready for that? Are you can you do that? And not like it's not a bad way.

Tammy Brown:

It's just the harder way. It's the more difficult way. It's the more difficult way to carry shame, to carry like, we all know what rejection, breakup, end of relationship brings on us, then you add the the physical intimacy into that. How devastating that is on your spare, on your soul, on your heart, on your life. And so it's like, are you ready for that as a teen?

Tammy Brown:

Are you ready for that outside of marriage? Because marriage and relationship is difficult enough, but we're committed. There's a commitment there. It's like, here's why God wants this for you, and the cell needs to be God's heart for us. Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

And if you trust his heart is for you, it doesn't mean you'll never make a mistake, but it's just like, oh, that's the why. I'm not wanting to not do this so that I I'm, like, not bad. It's like, I'm wanting to pursue this because it's god. Like, I trust god's heart for me. And, you know, you and I sort of adopted what we once heard of doctor Phil one day.

Tammy Brown:

It said, always take the conversation. Remember that?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

One step further the further than the kids asking. And so when it comes to, like, talk about sex and intimacy, you and I took the stance. And if you haven't done this, it's fine. It can start now, but, like, the sooner, the better. So we had those conversations in small ways, appropriate ways from very early ages with our kids.

Tammy Brown:

Right. So that when, like, the rubber met the road, if you will, when it was like there's real boys involved and real girls involved in real relationships, it's not like, hey. We we probably should talk about this thing, which is sort of like my upbringing was like, I'm

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Yeah. 15. It's like, hey. Can we talk? I'm like, we're not talking, mom.

Tammy Brown:

Like, I can't that ship to sail. Yeah. You know what I mean? It made it so awkward. And you and I always wanted to be be the people our kids trusted about things.

Tammy Brown:

Yeah. Like you used to always use the the term of like, I don't want you finding out real answers from your collective pool of idiot friends, know, which on the parents end means you can't be embarrassed in the moment. You have to have Yeah. You have to be able to be real with your successes and your failures. I think that's one thing we tried to do with the kids.

Tammy Brown:

It's been like, here's where it was great and why we're okay in this way or healthy, and here's where it wasn't, and here's the ramifications ramifications for years and ripples that that did in our life. And be very real with the kids at age appropriate times and to always try to push them a little bit deeper. But I think the key to talking about sex with kids is not talking necessarily about sex, talking about their heart. Right? Like, what are like, where's your heart at in this?

Tammy Brown:

What is your goal? And for girls, are you thinking? Are you believing that if you have sex with this guy, that cements the relationship? Mhmm. Because if you have some flawed thinking so it's like getting in the heart and the head before you even get into the physical part, but the conversation has to start at such a young age.

Tammy Brown:

And there you know this. There are conversations we've had with our kids that in the moment we're like, okay. No. Yeah. Let's talk about it.

Tammy Brown:

And then they leave the room and we're like

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. That was rough. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

I was like, I can't believe we just talked about that with the kids. And so talk about it more often, try to get to the heart of the matter Yeah. Over just like the logistics of the physical dynamics. So it's such a good question. Thank you, Nicole, for asking that, and I I hope that was helpful.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Praying for you. Yeah. Parenting is fun.

Tammy Brown:

We're through that say, high five. We're through the we're through that season. Okay. This next question is from, I think you guys like to say Annie Moss, but I'm just gonna say anonymous Yeah. Right here in Riverside.

Tammy Brown:

It says, I'm a 24 year old stay at home mom with my six month old daughter. I had an abortion in 2020 during my time in college with my now husband. It is one of the my biggest regrets, especially now since I've had my daughter. I've prayed for forgiveness and apologized for killing my innocent child. I came to change my whole view on a bur it came to change my whole view on abortion and how precious life is for a baby in the womb.

Tammy Brown:

Only my husband and I know about it. However, he feels he has to tell his parents. I feel very ashamed and I do not want them to know to view me differently and to hold a grudge. They are pastors, by the way. What do you think about his conviction and how should we go about it?

Tammy Brown:

This is

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Such

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

a So anonymous, thank you for sending this question in and I'm so sorry that, you know, you had to experience really the negative power of abortion. And you know, remember years ago people used to have the bumper sticker that said, you know, one killed, one wounded, and the wounded person is the mom. And just how that sticks with them forever. And so I'm praying for everybody who listens out there that's had an abortion, and I just want you to know that God's grace is real. But for those of the women out there who haven't had one, I hope that you can learn from this and say, okay, I don't want that kind of pain.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Because what so much of our culture says, it's just a procedure, it doesn't matter. But it does and it hurts women. Thank you for trusting me with this question. Yeah. You know, a podcast is not pastoring and it's so important that you are connected with your pastor.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so here's why I think your husband wants to share with his parents is because they're probably his pastor. So I don't know if, you know, what your level of connection is to Sandals Church, or did she say?

Tammy Brown:

It doesn't say.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah, it doesn't say, but I assume that you're connected with some somehow. So what I would encourage and your husband to do is let your parents be your parents. And I would go and confess this to a pastor. So the need that your husband has is, right? You said we both confessed it to God.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Five eighteen says, confess your sins, five sixteen. Confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. So we confess to God for forgiveness, but we confess to someone else for healing. And you guys need to do that. But what I would encourage you to do is pick a pastor, not your parents.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Because here's what's going to happen. I don't know how they're going to handle it. Bless you. I don't know what they're going to handle it or how they're going to handle it. They may handle it, great.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

But here's the thing. If you confess to them, now they have to grieve the loss of a grandchild they didn't know existed. Mhmm. I don't know that I'd want to know that. So I'd be torn.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. On the one hand I want to be there for my kid because they're carrying this heavy burden, but the problem is if they confess it to me as their parent, now that burden is transferred from them to me. And now I carry it with them. And I think that that's the role, not of a parent, that's the role of a pastor. And so if you were my child, here would be my advice to you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I would say I love you no matter what God loves you no matter what. This is not something that I need to carry. You and your husband are adults and this is something that you need to carry, but you need to confess to your pastor. You need to confess to your spiritual leader and you need to let me and allow me to not be that for you in this instance. Because I think your fear of being judged or whatever, I don't know if they're going to do that or not, but you have to allow them this space to grieve in that moment.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Because it's a confession not just of you choosing not to have a child, it's the confession of a loss of a grandchild. And they might handle that great, I'm not convinced that I would handle that great. And so what I would want from you if you were my daughter is I would want this to be between you and Jesus who died for you on the cross, and his blood covers even the sin of abortion. And then I would like this to be something that you confess to a pastor who doesn't have to mourn the loss of a grandchild. And I think that it's so important, we all need a pastor, and this situation is wonky because your husband's parents are pastors, and so that's why it feels weird here.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Obviously you can do what you want, your Your parents who are pastors might disagree. I'm sharing this from my perspective. I don't need to know every sin my children have committed. I'm not God. I'm just not.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I don't want I'm already worried enough and stressed enough if they chose to come to me, our kids have come to us with stuff that's been really hard. That's the role of spiritual community. The role of spiritual community is I don't tell everything to my biological family. I have a spiritual family that I confess things to. And here's the thing, you confess it to God, you confess it to your spiritual leader, that's it.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You we don't have to go on the confession tour.

Tammy Brown:

And everything after that Yeah. Any voice of shame is the enemy. Yeah. And that's where you have to take those thoughts captive Yeah. Because you are forgiven.

Tammy Brown:

Done what the Bible said.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I would say if you go to Sandals, I would make an appointment to talk with a pastor and say, I need to get something off my chest. You guys confess that. And and then I would just say Mhmm. At that moment, you've asked God for forgiveness. You've confessed it to a fellow brother's sister in Christ, you've obeyed the commandments of Jesus, is done.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And you guys need to move forward like Tammy is saying. And then maybe your ministry is helping, you know, young people in our church to know that pain. But again, I just, here's what I'm concerned about. In the same way that Nicole, our last question asker said, hey, I'm recovering from this wounding from my church that meant, they didn't mean harm. I'm concerned that his parents might not handle this well, and they might look at you differently, because at the end of the day, you know, it's their grandkid that doesn't exist.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. And so I just would say, let's have a pastor who doesn't have that added layer. And and and let pastors pastor. That's what we do.

Tammy Brown:

How would you say to navigate that conversation with her husband? Because clearly that Yeah. Is a tricky place because he wants to. I

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

here's where I think he's right. He they do need to confess to Yeah. Someone. It's not enough just to God. Here's where protestants, we get it wrong.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

We think we can just confess to God. That's John one nine. If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. That's right. But to experience healing, that's why we need all the counsel of God.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

We need James that says, confess your sins one to another so that you may be whole and healed. And that's what we need to experience. And it's looking somebody in the face and saying, I did this, and crying, and grieving, and wishing it didn't happen, right? And by the way, that's repentance. Repentance is saying, I wish I didn't do this.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And it's turning from that and saying, I'm going to be different. And here's the gospel. We can't bring that baby back to life. We can't. But Jesus' blood can cover that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And here's where my hope is in the resurrection. You know, when Isaiah sees the new heaven and he sees the new earth, there are children there. Now, we don't have the whole picture. Jesus says in the new heaven and new earth we'll be

Tammy Brown:

like

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

angels. So we don't procreate. So where do those babies come from? Wonder if those are the babies who didn't get to live, who at the resurrection, they will live their lives and we will watch them grow. And I think maybe that the way that Jesus takes this grief away is that in the new earth, you get to watch that baby grow.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And it will be as if they never died. That's what I believe. I don't know that. Am almost convinced that that's what I think Jesus is going to do. I think Isaiah gets a glimpse of something that we just can't understand.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

But there are little children that are And so I wonder if that's not the case. Because Jesus says, behold, I make all things new. And so

Tammy Brown:

And there there may come a time Yeah. My thought on that would be that until you're both okay with it, you need they need to not move forward with the parents and telling the parents.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

My advice is don't. But you do what you want.

Tammy Brown:

At some point, you may feel differently. There may be a close a closer connection with the parents or a different way, like, assurance in you that you're that you're forgiven, that you may feel more comfortable at some point. But I would I my 2¢ would be Yeah. Until you're in agreement as a married couple, the two become one

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Then one cannot decide to do it without the other. Yes. Or that that's gonna create a whole another set of issues between you as a couple, and it sounds like you're carrying enough.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Well, he's carrying shame. Mhmm. And what I would say is that's what led to the abortion. Mhmm. So let's not let shame drive this any further.

Tammy Brown:

Yeah.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Let's do what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't say confess to your parents so that you may be whole and healed. That's not what the Bible says. Yeah. The Bible says confess to one another.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so the assumption there is, right, this is spiritual community. Mhmm. So find that. He may be most comfortable because his parents have shepherded him and loved him and whatever, but he needs to understand that they're not your parents. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And there may be a level of grace for him that's not there for you and it could cause lifelong division. Let's let a pastor pastor. That's my advice. You do you do what you want.

Tammy Brown:

That's really good. Well, these were good questions today. Heavy, but good, and all from women today, I believe. But to everybody out there, I just wanna say thank you so much for listening, for giving Matt and I your time, and trusting us with these questions. If you're a fan of this podcast, please follow it, like it, comment on it.

Tammy Brown:

And if you would love to support the ministry that we do because this all takes some support to make happen, you can show that by going to sandalschurch.com/support, and that would mean so much to us so that we can answer these questions, that we can take the things that we've learned over time relationally, personally, and spiritually, and just share them with you guys as we leave this church. So thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.

Scott Schutte:

Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.

Scott Schutte:

If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.