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This podcast is about getting things done through people who don’t report to you like other teams, peers, your boss or customers. It’s for leaders in B2B software and SaaS who need a yes they can’t demand.
Have you ever been in a situation where
you kept following up to get someone's
sign-off on something you thought
that they agreed to in a previous
meeting or conversation, and you found
yourself sending a third follow-up
to a person who will not even reply?
This episode is all about that
pattern and how you can get the
agreement you actually wanted.
Let's talk about that.
Adam Verity: I was once in a monthly
review meeting, and there were a
group of leaders there, and there
were two specific directors, let's
call them director one and two.
And those two people, they had teams who
collaborate with each other all the time.
And it seems that director one was
frustrated with the director two's
team because they are experiencing
delays getting workload from them.
So what happened in that meeting is that
that first director, he put up a slide
during the meeting that shows in numbers
that the delay is happening on that team,
and that's why his team is frustrated and
experiencing delays in giving the results.
And I was watching the situation
while this first director, he put
the numbers, put the facts, very
clean case, all correct and true.
And after he was done presenting,
the other director, he leaned
back, looked at his laptop, and
he said, "Okay," and that's it.
Now, the entire room expected
something more, but that's all he said.
He said, "Okay."
So my boss at the time, he
said, "Okay, let's move forward.
It seems that we are aligned on
that topic," because he sensed
the awkwardness of silence.
Now, the meeting was over, and I got
an email from that first director who
put up the slide and argued his case.
He was following up with the entire group.
He was following up really with
the second director, but he CC'd
everybody saying that, "Okay,
this is what we agreed on, and I'm
following up so we can sit together
and cross the T's and dot the I's."
But I was not CC'd on a response.
Few days later, I was CC'd on another
email from that first director
CC'ing everybody, reminding the
second director about the topic.
He recapped with the slide and he
added even few more facts as a proof.
And he CC'd everybody,
including their bosses.
Now, I was thinking to myself, that first
director it probably feels right for him
to do that because his numbers are true,
and the second director's silence looks
like hiding from the fact But the thing
that occurred to me that each push from
that first director is going to make yes
less likely from the second director.
Because if the second director
acknowledges that, it's like
they are saying, "Okay, I admit
and confess it's our fault," and
they are doing that publicly.
Now, they cannot argue the
numbers because the numbers are
the numbers, they are correct.
So that second director went quiet.
But the thing is that I noticed at the
time is that that second director is
not rejecting the numbers or the facts.
They are rejecting the
confession that came with it.
They did not want to do that publicly.
And I saw that happening from the meeting.
When they crossed their arms, they
leaned back, and their eyes dropped,
and his answer was, "Fine," or, "Okay."
And I felt that the awkwardness of the
silence meant and were saying a lot.
He felt cornered.
And if I remember correctly, I got CC'd
on three or four total nudges, and I
don't know what happened after that At
the time, I thought to myself, "Hmm,
every time that first director sent an
email, a follow-up, and CC'd everybody,
he made the issue even more public,
and he made it even harder for the
second director to admit the problem."
The question is no more about we
have an issue we need to solve.
The focus is not on the
problem and the solution.
The focus is on that director
and his team, and that changes
everything, changes the conversation.
So I went back to the agreement
design system that I was working
on at the time and building.
If you don't know what that is, go back
to the first episode and listen to that.
And I thought to myself, "How can
we actually get that second director
to collaborate, get the yes from
them using a different way of
thinking, a different strategy?"
So I thought to myself, "Okay, here are
five things that he could have done."
First, he could have stopped
pushing the proof on the second
director, especially publicly.
So no recaps, no nudges, no copying
for everybody, especially their bosses.
And the first director had to calm
himself down first, and he could
have thought of a way of saying it
without putting the blame in numbers.
That's very concrete, you see.
Second thing, he could have
taken the pressure off.
If I was in his shoes, I will
take the pressure off that second
director, and I'll do it in private.
Because when you are you and
them in a private room you
can own how you raised it.
You can say, "Listen, the way I
raised this whole topic in front
of everybody was not fair to you."
And you don't do that with numbers.
You don't do that with justifications.
You just say, "Listen, that was my bad."
The reason we wanna do that
is you want to calm them down.
You're gonna calm their
psychology, their nervous system.
You want to see if there's a door
that can be opened where they can
listen to you further and want to
collaborate with you in the future.
So I'll stop pushing the
proof, especially in public.
I'll have a private meeting, and I'll
say, "Hey, listen, that was on me.
That was my bad how I raised it in
public, and I apologize for that.
And I want to listen to your team's
side, and your side of this whole delay.
What's going on here?"
You go slow and let them talk about
their perspective with no slides,
no numbers, no my team justified it.
None of that.
Start from their side,
not from your slide.
And go slow and let them talk until you
get full sentences from them instead
of, "Fine," or, "Gotcha," or, "Noted."
No, let them relax.
Get full sentences.
Let them express the problem
from their point of view.
Whether it's true or not does not matter.
And once you get to that stage where
they feel a bit relaxed now that you are
listening to their point of view, now
you can go back to your ask, of course.
We want to get a yes here.
But before you do that, you need to
understand, okay, listen, if we move
forward with this change, what will
that cost you personally, you, Mr.
Director number two, you?
What will it cost your team
in terms of work, in terms of
workload in terms of stress?
What will it cost your
reputation in front of your boss?
How will you look like, you and your
team in front of the boss or the room?
And once you get them to talk about the
real cost in their own words, and after
they share that with you, you gotta
also share the cost on your side so
they can see that, okay, you're fair.
What the director did in the meeting
I was in, he just put up a slide, and
he was blaming that person publicly.
He was not fair and balanced
in listening to both stories.
He just put up the facts
and said, "You, you, you."
And that backfired, of course.
So stop pushing the proof,
especially publicly.
Take the pressure off in
private between you both.
And let them talk about the story from
their side, not from your slide, not the
sources, not the numbers, their side.
And find out after that what a yes
would cost them if they move forward
with the change that you are proposing,
and of course share yours as well.
And if the cost is too high,
what you can do is you can let
them suggest a first small step.
If they cannot do the whole
change in one go, say, "Great.
No problem.
Let's start with a small first step.
Can we try X by this and that date?"
And if they say yes, great.
If they don't, go even smaller.
Chunk it down to a smaller first
step until they see it feasible
and doable for them to say yes.
And then ask them, "Hey, listen.
Would you like me to propose this
to the entire group or both our
teams, or would you like to do it?"
And by that, you give them the
pleasure of owning the credit.
Hey, listen.
That's what you really want them to do.
You want them to own the credit.
The reason I'm saying that is you
got what you wanted, didn't you?
Who owns the credit doesn't matter.
You got the reputation that you are the
person who can get things done across
teams, collaborating with other leaders.
And this is the kind of skill that
the leadership higher up looks
for when they are looking for the
next leaders for the next levels
Now, the longer the silence between
the meeting and the follow-ups, the
longer you need to calm them down.
So for example, if you've been following
up for four or five weeks now, it
might take you two meetings to take the
pressure off and rebuild re-rapport again.
So that first director, his
mindset was, " this is a fight,
and I'm going to win this fight."
The mindset of an agreement designer
is, "No, this is not a fight.
While I will show the proof that I'm
correct, I'll do it in private, but
I want to share the win in public."
I get what I wanted.
They get what they wanted, which
is credibility and credit, and
they look good, reputation.
You see?
All right, the main skill here in
this kind of situation, and you
can see the pattern regardless of
the story that I witnessed, you
can see the pattern at your work.
Now, that main skill is really handling
conflict and tension between people.
It's about calming things down
so a real conversation that can
produce real results can happen.
It's one of the four skills in the Without
Authority system, the system that shows
you how to get a real yes from others,
from people who do not report to you.
If you haven't listened to the first
episode, there are four skills.
Handling conflict and
tension is one of them.
And if you haven't already,
head to withoutauthority.com
and take the scorecard there.
It shows you which skill is your
strongest and which one to work
on to move people who do not
report to you like that director.
It takes about eight minutes, and
you get your report right away.
That's withoutauthority.com.
That's it for this episode.
Okay, see you next time.